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Works But Makes Noises
Works But Makes Noises episodes
- With Nick Pattison: Pentagram Boot Camp, Productizing Design, the Birth of Brand Sprints, and What AI Still Can’t Replace
This week, Jacob’s somewhere in rural Singapore (I think?), so David sits down with Nick Pattison, founder of Primary Studio, to trace his path from Pentagram and Milton Glaser’s studio to building a productized design practice around the two-week brand sprint. They get into earning your stripes, going from solo designer to studio owner, hiring your first employee, why design services should be easier to buy, and Nick’s ongoing obsession with making creative work more scalable. Plus, how a $220k project falling apart helped shape Primary’s model, what makes a great client experience, and what human designers might still have over AI.
Primary Studio – https://www.primary.studio/
NIck Pattison – https://x.com/thenickpattisonDavid McGillivray is a designer and creative director in upstate New York, designing for early stage tech companies through his own practice. He also co-founded Offhours and runs Corners, an art and design store in the Catskills.
Jacob Heftmann is a Los Angeles-based surfer and graphic designer. He is currently the Design Director at Grilli Type. Previously he was on the faculty at Parsons and founded XXIX and Index in New York City.
Artwork by Pablo Delcan
Music by Mondo Boys
Artwork typeface; GT Standard Mono by Grilli Typewww.worksbutmakesnoises.com
56 min - Sell-Out Culture, the Other 95% of Building Products, to Monetize or Not, and Where the Online Design Community Went
This week, we talk about the lost art of *not* selling out, whether or not to turn an idea into a business (plus David's released the beta of his app Archiv), and the forgotten 95% that goes into releasing a product. We get into the evolution of self-promotion and get nostalgic for when the design community had Twitter as a public space. David's off to pick up some original Karen Mobring-designed IKEA chairs and Jacob's going to the beach (surprise!). And does anyone know why there are parrots in LA?
David McGillivray is a designer and creative director in upstate New York, designing for early stage tech companies through his own practice. He also co-founded Offhours and runs Corners, an art and design store in the Catskills.
Jacob Heftmann is a Los Angeles-based surfer and graphic designer. He is currently the Design Director at Grilli Type. Previously he was on the faculty at Parsons and founded XXIX and Index in New York City.
Artwork by Pablo Delcan
Music by Mondo Boys
Artwork typeface; GT Standard Mono by Grilli Typewww.worksbutmakesnoises.com
57 min - Design Portfolios: Thinking Like a Business, Why Good Work Isn’t Enough, and the Crystal Goblet Mindset
Recording from an NYC visit (David) and peak California beach season (Jacob), this week we dig into the design portfolio and how to present yourself effectively – whether you’re at the beginning of your career or revamping your agency’s website. We talk about how work quality gets you in the door but it’s the positioning that gets you hired, why designers obsess over their projects instead of thinking like a business, how writing might be what actually sells you, the red flag that can scuttle a portfolio, and how to show up to a portfolio review like a class act.
Join the WBMN group chat on Idle:
https://wbmn.idlechat.app/chat/66a6053176d460916e27David McGillivray is a designer and creative director in upstate New York, designing for early stage tech companies through his own practice. He also co-founded Offhours and runs Corners, an art and design store in the Catskills.
Jacob Heftmann is a Los Angeles-based surfer and graphic designer. He is currently the Design Director at Grilli Type. Previously he was on the faculty at Parsons and founded XXIX and Index in New York City.
Artwork by Pablo Delcan
Music by Mondo Boys
Artwork typeface; GT Standard Mono by Grilli Typewww.worksbutmakesnoises.com
1 hr 4 min - Job Hunting, Career Philosophy, and Fit vs. Salary in a Midlife Design Career
After a little summer break we've got Jacob's trip report from a van adventure in Spain and work retreat in Amsterdam, and David reflects on the ins-and-outs of an eight-month career journey. We talk salary, doing work that sparks joy, the tension between freelance freedom and job security, and what makes a good fit versus just a good paycheck. Plus travel gear, Brighton Football Club, World Cup wrap-up, and David's renewed spark as he recalibrates his independent practice.
David McGillivray is a designer and creative director in upstate New York, designing for early stage tech companies through his own practice. He also co-founded Offhours and runs Corners, an art and design store in the Catskills.
Jacob Heftmann is a Los Angeles-based surfer and graphic designer. He is currently the Design Director at Grilli Type. Previously he was on the faculty at Parsons and founded XXIX and Index in New York City.
Artwork by Pablo Delcan
Music by Mondo Boys
Artwork typeface; GT Standard Mono by Grilli Typewww.worksbutmakesnoises.com
1 hr - World Cup Kits, Mamdani’s Grocery Store RFP, Siri AI, and a Tribute to David Hockney
We're going full World Cup fan-mode this week. We make some personal picks for the tournament and talk best and worst of the national team kits. Also in the world of public and civic branding projects, we call out some personal do's and don'ts related to the week's most-commented design RFP: NYC Mayor Zohran Mamdani's call for branding NYC's new public grocery stores. We talk about what the subway, public libraries, and Porto and Barcelona get right about civic design plus: Apple's audacious bet to rebrand Siri, a split decision on the new Ferrari, and a heartfelt goodbye to David Hockney.
David McGillivray is a designer and creative director in upstate New York, designing for early stage tech companies through his own practice. He also co-founded Offhours and runs Corners, an art and design store in the Catskills.
Jacob Heftmann is a Los Angeles-based surfer and graphic designer. He is currently the Design Director at Grilli Type. Previously he was on the faculty at Parsons and founded XXIX and Index in New York City.
Artwork by Pablo Delcan
Music by Mondo Boys
Artwork typeface; GT Standard Mono by Grilli Typewww.worksbutmakesnoises.com
58 min - Digital Collecting, a Bauhaus Awakening, and the Ethics of Copying, Crediting and Remixing in Design
This week we're getting moooooody – moodboards, that is!
First we talk David's new iOS app Archiv, which lets you photograph and catalogue what's around you. Then we wade into the thorny world of design inspiration, copying, and downright plagiarism, vague posting without credit, and the blurry line between inspiration and theft. We tackle wether moodboards are lazy shortcuts, explore why learning through mimicking great work actually teaches you something real, trace David’s design awakening to his discovery of the Bauhaus, and ask: how much of design is just remixing culture anyway? We talk about having our own work ripped off, the commercial stakes of credit, and how to know when copying crosses from homage to wholesale theft.
David McGillivray is a designer and creative director in upstate New York, designing for early stage tech companies through his own practice. He also co-founded Offhours and runs Corners, an art and design store in the Catskills.
Jacob Heftmann is a Los Angeles-based surfer and graphic designer. He is currently the Design Director at Grilli Type. Previously he was on the faculty at Parsons and founded XXIX and Index in New York City.
Artwork by Pablo Delcan
Music by Mondo Boys
Artwork typeface; GT Standard Mono by Grilli Typewww.worksbutmakesnoises.com
1 hr 7 min - Designing With Emotion, Elastic Branding, and Band Dynamics with guest Estee Kim, VP of Design at Soft Services
This week we're joined by Estee Kim, VP of Design at Soft Services, the cult-favorite body care brand known for its meticulous design and packaging.
We talk on multi-generational design families, her parents’ graphic design and signage shop in Philadelphia, and her grandmother Rose's collage practice. Estee walks us through Soft Services’ design philosophy; how they capture sensory experiences visually, the brand’s “elastic branding” approach, the band metaphor for collaborative design teams, and why designing for feeling—not just function—matters in commercial work.
David McGillivray is a designer and creative director in upstate New York, designing for early stage tech companies through his own practice. He also co-founded Offhours and runs Corners, an art and design store in the Catskills.
Jacob Heftmann is a Los Angeles-based surfer and graphic designer. He is currently the Design Director at Grilli Type. Previously he was on the faculty at Parsons and founded XXIX and Index in New York City.
Artwork by Pablo Delcan
Music by Mondo Boys
Artwork typeface; GT Standard Mono by Grilli Typewww.worksbutmakesnoises.com
1 hr 9 min - Getting Good Design Feedback, Figma Comments, and Electric Car Shopping
electric car shopping and EV tradeoffs, figma comments and modern design feedback, fragmented feedback across tools, structuring better client critique, feedback psychology and confidence, figma shortcuts and workflows, productivity tools we don’t use, are.na websites and spatial, caveman codex, spring in upstate New York
https://www.44xdesign.com/spatial
https://tiny.garden/sites by @gndclouds WILLIAM FELKER
https://github.com/JuliusBrussee/caveman
David McGillivray is a designer and creative director in upstate New York, designing for early stage tech companies through his own practice. He also co-founded Offhours and runs Corners, an art and design store in the Catskills.
Jacob Heftmann is a Los Angeles-based surfer and graphic designer. He is currently the Design Director at Grilli Type. Previously he was on the faculty at Parsons and founded XXIX and Index in New York City.
Artwork by Pablo Delcan
Music by Mondo Boys
Artwork typeface; GT Standard Mono by Grilli Typewww.worksbutmakesnoises.com
1 hr 1 min - Surf Apps & 70’s Surf Racks, Figma Config, Homebrew Study Aides, Hand-Finished Design, Reverse Airbnb, and Design Team Retreats
surf forecasting tools and building personal software, jacob’s 70’s surf rack archive and design lineage, figma config branding and pushing beyond the parent brand, using ai to study and learn through narrative instead of memorization, planning a retreat for type designers and the limits of structured “fun”
https://www.infinitemachine.com/
https://jheftmann.github.io/wavekit/
https://config.figma.com/David McGillivray is a designer and creative director in upstate New York, designing for early stage tech companies through his own practice. He also co-founded Offhours and runs Corners, an art and design store in the Catskills.
Jacob Heftmann is a Los Angeles-based surfer and graphic designer. He is currently the Design Director at Grilli Type. Previously he was on the faculty at Parsons and founded XXIX and Index in New York City.
Artwork by Pablo Delcan
Music by Mondo Boys
Artwork typeface; GT Standard Mono by Grilli Typewww.worksbutmakesnoises.com
55 min - Special Guest Allan Yu on Going From Designer to Founder, Pivoting Your Startup, and Why AI Should Be Invisible
This week we’re joined by Allan Yu, designer and co-founder of community messaging app, Output. He previously worked as an early designer at Svpply, a cult favorite among designers, and later at Google Labs, Meta, and Shopify.
We talk on designer to founder reality checks, pivoting your startup (again and again), Svpply nostalgia, type foundry UX rants, building a Discord for normal people, design craft vs shipping product, venture-backed startup pressure, fake users testing your product, why consumers don’t care about AI, AI as invisible product magic.
https://output.app
David McGillivray is a designer and creative director in upstate New York, designing for early stage tech companies through his own practice. He also co-founded Offhours and runs Corners, an art and design store in the Catskills.
Jacob Heftmann is a Los Angeles-based surfer and graphic designer. He is currently the Design Director at Grilli Type. Previously he was on the faculty at Parsons and founded XXIX and Index in New York City.
Artwork by Pablo Delcan
Music by Mondo Boys
Artwork typeface; GT Standard Mono by Grilli Typewww.worksbutmakesnoises.com
59 min
About Works But Makes Noises
From the publisher's feed
Two designers on opposite coasts talk their way through creativity, culture, and tech. It’s a podcast about everything except design, that somehow always ends up being about design.