XR for Learning

Rob Theriault has recently become Georgian College’s immersive lead, finding ways to employ XR technologies to enhance learning in various courses. He explains how faculties need to become innovation adopters if their students are to do the same.

Julie: Hello, my name is Julie Smithson, and I am your XR for Learning podcast host. I look forward to bringing you insight into changing the way that we learn and teach using XR technologies to explore, enhance, and individualize learning for everyone. And today, my guest is a good friend from here in Barrie, Ontario, in Canada. Welcome Rob Theriault, an immersive technology lead from Georgian College. Rob has been a part of the paramedics program, and asked just most recently to start taking over a lot more of the technology at the college. Thank you so much for joining me today, Rob. I'd love to get right into it and learn about your story and your position in the college. So thank you so much for being here today.

Rob: Hi, Julie. It's a pleasure. Thank you. You want some background?

Julie: Yeah, I would love that. Why don't you do a bit of introduction?

Rob: Sure. I've been a paramedic for 36 years and teaching paramedics for the last 20. And I've always had a keen interest in educational technology. But I'm also a skeptic when it comes to technology. So I think educators would be wise to be somewhat skeptical and cautious about using technology, ensuring that it actually enhances learning or provides something new to learning. A couple of years ago, I introduced virtual reality into our paramedic program for patient simulation primarily, and that led to a conversation with our president and vice president of academic, who wanted to know where I thought virtual and augmented reality was going. So I told them that I felt that it needed some investment, that it needed some leadership. And surprisingly, they agreed, created a position and set out. So now I'm the immersive technology lead for the college. And my role is to communicate with the faculty, to engage in exploring virtual reality, engage in its potential pedagogy, and to see about integrating virtual or augmented reality into curriculum.

Julie: That's amazing, because you're really introducing this technology into multiple different courses. So maybe you can actually talk a little bit about Georgian College's highlighted programs, because I know you and I have talked a lot over the past couple of years of knowing each other, and not every course can be put into these immersive technologies. You still need that one-on-one. So maybe do you want to talk a little bit about Georgian College's programs, and then taking a look at all the programs, which ones could have this technology applied to them and the ones that couldn't?

Rob: Yeah, I'm not sure about the ones that couldn't. I'm not convinced of the fact they're any-- that would not be amenable to virtual or augmented reality. But cross that bridge when I come to it. So our architectural technology program has been using virtual reality for the last three years. They were the first at the college. And it's a remarkable experience for students to be able to construct or design buildings from within the building, and have that spatial awareness and be able to test building materials in the process simultaneously. So they were the leaders in that area. And then we introduced it in the paramedic program. And I'm hoping to get funding to continue to use virtual reality in our advanced care paramedic program this fall. We're going to be using a program that involves students resuscitating patients from cardiac arrest and with different abnormal heart rhythms. And the program we're proposing to use employs artificial intelligence and voice recognition.

So essentially, the student stands in a virtual room with -- for example -- someone collapsed on the floor. And they've got a team of paramedics around them, basically, and each paramedic has a name tag on them. And the student just simply commands the avatars to do things. So the student might say, "Aaron, can you start chest compressions? William, can you start an intravenous line? Fatima, can you give a milligram of epinephrine?" So really quite a remarkable program. And what it also does is it tests your leadership skills and your situational awareness. So one of the avatars, for example, might be doing chest compressions and start to slow down, and people fatigue doing CPR after about two minutes. So the student has to be aware that that's happening and prompt the the avatar to compress faster or deeper, or rotate them out and have someone take their place. So really excited about that program.

We're also hoping to do some research around that particular virtual reality experience. Our indigenous studies program has a course this fall called Learning in the Home. They have a small cohort of ten students who will each have headsets. The headsets will be shipped to their home probably mid-September. And what we've done is we've constructed a house, a virtual house in Altspace VR, and we're constructing a second one that can be brought in to any other platform, probably ENGAGE VR. And so what the students will do is they'll go into the home and they'll be learning language surrounding the home. So things in the house, like in the kitchen, in the bedroom, in the bathroom, in the garage. And what I've done in Altspace VR is, I've built a house with objects that each have an info button next to. So when the student clicks on the info button, it'll give them the Ojibwe word and the English word.

And there's really good research to support context based learning. So you're more likely to retain information if you're within the context, or more likely to retain information about words and verbs and sentences in the home if you're actually in a home, say in contrast with looking at a PowerPoint slide or reading a book. In the second home that we're constructing, we've contracted a company to do this. It'll have interactive objects, so students will be able to open a cupboard, open the stove, pick up a plate, pick up a bowl, and it'll give them the Ojibwe word, the English word, and it'll give them an audio file with pronunciation.

So, again, there's research to support an even higher level of retention when you're in context and you've also got interactive objects. So really excited about this. Our indigenous studies faculty are really enthusiastic about it, which excites me even more. So we're looking forward to that. But the other thing that's great about this pilot -- and we do have funding for this pilot, so we are going ahead with it -- is that not only will students be with their teacher in virtual reality and they're probably going to do about 30 minutes to 45 minutes max per week in virtual reality with their teacher. But the students can go into those platforms any time they want, day or night. And they can have group discussions, they can just socialize, they can just explore the land, if you will. So that social aspect is so important now, especially under the current pandemic, where students don't get to get together. So we're excited about that program.

Julie: That's awesome. What's the response of the students when-- well, I guess in their program itself, it would be, "you will have access to a VR headset." Is there any kind of surprised reaction that you hear from students that they are starting to use this technology in their program?

Rob: Well, they haven't heard yet, so... [laughs]

Julie: Oh, okay. [laughs] Surprise!

Rob: [laughs] Yeah. So they're going to be finding out fairly soon. And so what I will probably do is meet with them and the instructor in the first week via PC, by a desktop computer. And so they get familiar with the platforms and like initially, and then we'll ship the headset. So probably around a week four, and I'll have to do an orientation with them to the virtual space, because -- as you know -- there's a bit of a learning curve, especially if you're in a spatial network like Altspace VR or any other one, where if your avatar -- the character of the human body -- is moving but your legs are not moving, the conflict between what your eyes see and your vestibular system creates some vertigo for some people. So I have to give them a little orientation on how to how to move, and what to do if you feel unwell, and how to reduce the incidence of cyber-sickness. So I'm guessing they're going to be pretty excited. And I'm hoping that in addition to learning the language, I'm hoping that it actually translates into improved language learning and more enthusiasm for language. But I'm hoping it'll also excite students about the idea of learning in virtual reality. Maybe some of them will even go into designing virtual reality in the future.

Julie: Yeah, I would love to actually do a part two on that as a use case study with you. Maybe in a couple of months we'll jump back, and let's see what the results of that class was and the return on experience. It would be great to understand how that implementation goes. Are there any other programs at Georgian College that you want to highlight, that you've put into place, where VR and AR are now a part of the program?

Rob: Yeah, so not yet. But again, we're hoping to launch two of the pilots. One is in our biotech degree and the other is in our vet tech program. So in our biotech degree, there'll be a cohort of about-- there's a large group of students, but we're going to take small cohorts, because we really want to explore virtual reality with faculty and students on a small scale initially, just to get a sense of 1) is this a good experience? 2) Is it interactive and engaging? 3) Do the students enjoy it? 4) Does it translate into improved learning? We won't know that until we do some research, and my plan is to launch a whole series of pilots and then maybe do research in a year's time. With the exception of our paramedic program, where we're hoping to do research this fall.

But in our biotech degree, students are going to be using a product called Nano, which is a multiplayer virtual reality system that enables students to look at atoms the size of a football or basketball or larger. So there's a-- they receive kind of a spatial awareness of what atoms and molecules look like, and they're able to manipulate those molecules, they're able to pull proteins out, proteins in. And it's a product that's familiar to scientists around the world. In fact, scientists around the world are using Nano to get a better understanding of novel viruses -- like the novel coronavirus -- and develop new drugs, synthetic antibodies, new vaccines, things like that. So this is really cutting edge learning technology, I'm really excited about it.

The students are also going to be -- as far as we know -- using Inspirit VR to run chemistry labs in virtual reality. And chemistry is a great subject area for virtual reality, when you think about it. So students can do their chemistry lab safety training in there, and they can do it on their own, or with the instructor, or a combination of both. And they can also conduct experiments that might otherwise be dangerous, but not so in virtual reality. So really excited about what they're doing with biotech. In our veterinary technician program, we have a veterinarian who provides medical oversight for the program, and he's really excited about what they're going to be doing. So they're going to be doing animal dissection in virtual reality and animal anatomy. And the anatomy program we are using is an open source anatomy program from Virginia Tech. So we took the product, we sort of branded a little bit with Georgian College and enhanced the menu process, and so really excited about doing that.

So those are the pilots. But we're also looking really closely right now at hospitality, tourism, and fine arts. And the trades, the trades is a huge one, but we're looking for content and we're looking at the possibility of maybe putting out an RFP in the future, to develop some trades experiences in virtual reality that are high yield, high priority.

Julie: It sounds like there's-- every single industry is covered here. And it's so great to hear that. Everything from hospitality to medical applications to veterinary to bioscience. And you touched on chemistry and Inspirit, who-- their team is incredible, what they've put out. I've done an interview with them, as well. And it really does come back to sciences and how important sciences are in learning in general, and that critical problem solving and exploration and collaboration that happens in chemistry, to discover what's possible. And that's what we really need right now during this time of innovation. So while bioscience is already focused on chemistry, specifically, the whole premise of sciences really covers the skillsets needed to use this technology in every single industry.

Rob: Healthcare and trades are two particularly critical areas right now, especially healthcare in terms of hands-on experience, because a lot of hospitals have stopped taking medical students and nursing students temporarily, until they figure out how they're going to address the personal protective equipment issue and infection control issues. And so we're looking to do two things. One, to explore virtual reality to develop skills. And I sort of think of medical simulation in two categories. One is discrete skills, and the other is scenarios where students engage their higher order thinking and decision making. So in the discrete skills category, there are many, many, many nursing skills, paramedic skills, personal support worker skills, dental hygiene skills, for example. There could be maybe 15, 20 minute virtual reality experiences where they can repeat those skills over and over again. In fact, there may be opportunity for students to repeat those skills in virtual reality more frequently than they would otherwise in the lab, just because they're competing with other students.

And some of these programs are more expensive and some content is a little bit lacking currently. But my hope is that eventually we'll get nursing and other programs learning discrete skills, and that will translate into a sort of learning curve into better performance in the lab. And there's good evidence to support that. In fact, there was a study recently this year, done with a group of second year medical students who were randomized to standard learning of a surgical procedure, which involved looking at a video and reading some text and looking at images, versus virtual reality training. And they found that the percentage of steps done correctly in VR compared to standard training was 63 percent versus 25 percent. And the knowledge retention in the VR group was 50 percent versus 11 percent. And that's really-- it's a small group. I think there were like a cohort of 20. It's a small study, but it's really good initial proof of concept for skills development.

Julie: Absolutely.

Rob: Yeah, it's incredible. And so that's one of the areas that we need. And then I think a lot of the XR developers are really aiming at the full-out scenario type training, because not only does it target the fourth year nursing students and the third year paramedic students, but it targets working nurses and the respiratory therapist and physicians. So it's a bigger market. So it makes sense for them to go after that market. But I'm having conversations with hundreds of companies around the world on a daily basis, and telling them sort of what our needs are at colleges and universities, and hoping they come through for us.

Julie: That's great. So let's shift over to where you mentioned. You have a couple of great professors that -- like yourself -- who are forward thinking. And I guess my question is, what kind of response did you get from Georgian College teachers in general, to kind of adapt to that remote learning, especially since we were forced to it through COVID. But now, is there a challenge in converting any teachers into this remote process that is going to change their course -- literally -- and in some of these courses that are being offered?

Rob: Definitely. So the transition to remote teaching has been a real struggle for a lot of faculty, who've never taught online before. I've been teaching online asynchronously and synchronously since probably 1999, and the transition is easy for me, but for a lot of faculty it hasn't been. If I have a conversation with a faculty member who is in a program where I think virtual reality would be ideal, the response I'm getting now sometimes is "I'm just overwhelmed with what I have to do now. I can't look at this stuff now. I mean, it's exciting. I love it, but I just can't do it right now." So I have to take a little time and baby steps, and let them get used to remote teaching and then we'll introduce virtual reality. But for the most part, faculty I've spoken to are really excited about it. And so what I'm doing is saying, "Look, you're not ready for now, I totally understand. But let me get a headset into your hands and we'll meet for 30 minutes, and I'll show you what's available in your program area and see what you think. Chew it over. Think about it. Maybe winter 2021 or the next fall, we'll look at implementing it partially into the curriculum." And so most people are excited by that.

But the risk with technology in early days -- like today -- is that you'll get one teacher in one program, who's really enthusiastic about it and launches it in the program. And then the next person who teaches that same course -- maybe it's part time faculty or full time faculty -- just doesn't have any enthusiasm whatsoever for virtual reality. And it dies. That's a risk. So it's going to be lots of peaks and valleys for the next five to ten years in the XR industry at school. That's my prediction.

Julie: So one of the things that-- and I've been in some consultations with other colleges and I've used Georgian College as an example of forward thinking, and basically a sign advising them to assign an immersive lead like yourself for the school, to become a champion for the technology. Maybe before we kind of close this conversation, maybe a little bit of advice to those colleges and universities out there that have not started this process, which a lot of them have now with remote teaching. And maybe they have a champion in this school that's already thinking like you do. But from a very high level perspective, I guess, what is your advice to them to have them start to adopt this and try to implement it into an entire college or university system?

Rob: Yeah, baby steps, number one. [chuckles] Almost every college university has virtual reality in a lab of some sort. So they have some room, somewhere, where some techie people have some VR headsets, and faculty can go there and try them out. And that kind of closeted VR approach, in my opinion, never takes off. And when I first spoke with Georgian College about it, they wanted to put virtual reality in a room, in a building. And I said the only students who are going to go there are the computer students and the computer faculty. We have to get in a high traffic area, like the library. And if we're going to start to generate some interest in virtual reality, we have to get faculty exploring it and trying it. And so they gave me the go-ahead to do that, which was great. So we're doing small pilot, small student cohorts, maybe two or three programs at a time, and building up some understanding of it and exploration of it. And I think this is so important in the early days.

And just as you said, if colleges and universities can create a position like mine, someone who can help drive it and communicate with faculty and help them explore. I think that's the key. And it's important to explore for two reasons. Number one, we want to explore its pedagogical potential. "Do students actually experience enhanced learning?" And you think about how it's being used now, if -- as a student -- I could go to historical sites to learn the history of that site or what battle took place on that site or what the Roman Empire was like, while standing in the ruins of what was formerly the Roman Empire, why would you ever teach in front of a chalkboard, a whiteboard again? I mean, that kind of context and experiential learning is just phenomenal. So I think faculty need to explore it, to see its true pedagogical potential. And I think it's also thirdly critically important for faculty to communicate with developers of XR, to ensure that they have good instructional designers, who understand pedagogy and know how to make virtual reality or augmented reality a good learning experience. And I've seen some really good XR experiences that were impressive visually, but really weak pedagogically. I didn't feel it was strong for student learning. So I think those three things are important.

Julie: Well, Rob, thank you so much for joining this XR for Learning podcast. I think when it comes to education, there's so much to talk about, and there's really so much to change the way that we're learning and that we're teaching. And from my perspective, I just wanted to let you know that I really admire you.

Rob: Thank you.

Julie: Your connection and network connection, not only here in Ontario, but online and through the networks as well. And just seeing how you've managed to lead Georgian College -- well before COVID started -- implementing this, I think that's what really set your role and Georgian College apart from some of the other colleges and universities that I've seen. And I wanted to congratulate you on the hard work, because I know how much it has taken, to be able to implement this and not just from the software side, but you and I have talked several times about the challenges of hardware, which I think that could be another segment on this show. [laughs]

Rob: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Julie: But why don't-- I guess the best way if anybody wanted to reach out and maybe ask a quick question of advice to you, I guess the best place to reach you would be on LinkedIn, or if you want, you can share your email.

Rob: Sure, they can reach me on LinkedIn, for sure. That's probably the easiest way. And from there I can share my email address, it's probably easier than-- or do you keep show notes, like a website with show notes?

Julie: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Rob: Happy to share my email there. Or they can reach me on Twitter, @EdTechMedic.

Julie: That's great. Well, thank you so much, Rob, for joining us today. And all the best in this next semester of 2020, where remote learning will-- I don't think will stop from here. It's only going to improve and the learning experience is just going to get stronger and stronger. So really excited to do a part two with you one day, and learn about some of the pilot programs that you have.

Rob: Sure. Happy to do that. Thank you.

Julie: And thank you to the listeners for listening in on the XR for Learning podcast. Don't forget to follow us on social media and share among your community, and friends and family to help learn about the different ways that teaching and learning, especially at the college and university level, are taking place. So thank you very much, everybody, for joining us. And thank you, Rob, for joining me today on the XR for Learning podcast.

Olivia Wenzel may be Julie’s youngest guest yet, but her youth hasn’t stopped her from launching a startup — AltruTec — or teaming with Julie on the VRARA’s Parent & Student Resource, or using VR to combat dementia.

Julie: Hello, everyone, my name is Julie Smithson and I am your XR for Learning podcast host. I look forward to bringing you insight into changing the way that we learn and teach using XR technologies, to explore, enhance, and individualize learning for everyone. Today, my special guest is Olivia Wenzel, a student and founder of AltruTec, developing video games for adults suffering from dementia. Thank you so much, Olivia, for joining me today on this podcast.

Olivia: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Julie: It is so great to have somebody from the next generation join me. You happen to be the youngest one of my guests. So thank you so much for being here. And I'm really excited to be able to share with everyone some of the works that we've been doing, since you and I have been working together for the last year and a half on the student committee with the Virtual and Augmented Reality Association, developing and building out resources for everyone. So first of all, I'd like to give you a chance to introduce yourself and then we'll step into a little bit about some of the work that we're doing.

Olivia: Absolutely. I just graduated from high school and I'm headed to Harvard this fall. I'm interested in studying at the intersection of health and technology. So I'm thinking computer science and neuroscience, or computer science and psychology. I'm not quite sure yet. I have a startup called AltruTec. I'm really interested in improving the quality of life for older adults. But perhaps what's most relevant to today's discussion is my co-leadership of the student committee with Julie. I have the great pleasure of leading this committee of students, parents, and VR and AR industry professionals with Julie, an amazing mentor. We aim to support parents, students, and schools in adopting immersive technologies and 3D learning. But let me take a step back and answer your question about how I got involved. My interest in virtual and augmented reality is actually heavily tied to AltruTec. I have a family history of dementia, and when I first started exploring other approaches to improve people with dementia's quality of life, I ended up coming across several virtual reality applications. Long story short, they were using this immersive platform to deliver non-pharmacological therapy, such as reminiscence and music therapy. I found the mediums to be extremely promising. The early research that was coming out was so exciting. And so I ended up reaching out to some universities and companies in the area, because I really didn't have any background in technology or virtual/augmented reality, especially at the time. And I met someone in Cleveland named Reynaldo Zabala, who was involved in the VR/AR Association. And after some further correspondences, he helped me develop my ideas some more. I ended up being introduced to the committee, and soon I was heading it up. [laughs]

Julie: [laughs] Which has been a long time coming for us, to finally put a project together that we can work on. And I think it was over a good six, seven months period of time of us just talking to each other, and then figuring out what kind of mission could we work on together, that could give back to the community. And that's where we came up with the parent and student resource.

Olivia: Yes, yep.

Julie: So, yeah, we came up with a few ideas on how to do this, but this was kind of a zeroed-in project, and I think it was really necessary to be able to have this. And I remember talking to you last year about what we were going to do, and what your thoughts were about the state of knowledge of VR and AR. Let's go back about a year and thinking how we approached this. What were the reasons? Obviously we know them, but what was the state of mind back then? Can you go back to a time where you think there wasn't anything out there that was helping anybody?

Olivia: Yeah. [laughs] It's hard to think about. But I would say that we were really inspired by this belief in the power of 3D learning, which has continued to be vetted by research. And I think what motivated us most was knowing the importance of preparing young people to be change makers in this rapidly evolving, increasingly digital workplace, which is even more so digital today. And we knew that -- to speak to your question around what was actually the knowledge base -- well, yes, there were less hardware, less software, because technology progresses as time goes on. There was very little awareness among students especially and parents -- people who weren't actually working in this industry -- about the basics of the technology, what were the benefits of learning in an immersive environment, and how our industries were already being impacted by these technologies and would continue to be. So we felt it was increasingly important to even just provide a basic exposure to what the technologies are, what they offer, and how -- for students -- how their future work would be impacted by them.

Julie: And we really wanted to address the parents in these issues, to be able to have the parents share their knowledge with students, so we were kind of looking for that. What's the best communication medium? How are we going to reach as many people as we could? And from my perspective, being a parent council member at my children's school, I knew that the parents hold so much power to what their kids can learn, so much more than they actually think they do. Because how many parents actually just send their kids off to school and leave it to the systems to be able to educate their kids? And because there's this time and place right now where there's so much information, so much transformation taking place, it really is a time for exponential growth as all of this information is flooding towards us, on how to differently think when you're using technologies to be part of what you're doing, or learning, or working. And the whole concept of changing the way that we're learning and teaching, it's brand new for everyone. So we needed to start somewhere. And that's kind of how the parent and student resource was born. I can honestly say taking a look at what we've done-- and I'm going to add the fact that we did have a pandemic in the middle of this. There was a little bit of lull time about six months ago, where there was a few months where we weren't quite-- we didn't have our stuff together yet. But I believe that COVID accelerated our purpose. So I think you and I together, we were like, "Yes, we definitely need to pull these resources together." It was just the two of us at the time. And I'm referring back to the parent and student resources. And maybe you want to talk a little bit about how we kicked off issue one and what the following issues are going to look like, and maybe give an overview of the package of resources that we're producing at this time.

Olivia: Definitely. So overall -- as Julie mentioned -- this is a literary resource that introduces the bare bones, the basics of virtual reality, augmented reality, and 3D learning. We've covered a fairly diverse range of topics within those fields and have several regular sections. To answer your question around issue one, we kicked it off with sort of a glossary of sorts, of what we call tech terms. And so we have the very, very basics. What I just mentioned, virtual reality, augmented reality, head-mounted display, et cetera. We go into use cases of virtual and augmented reality training in remote collaboration. Eventually in future issues in the classroom, we offer take-away resources, so that parents and students -- once through those use cases -- they start to really digest and understand why it's so pressing that they and their students understand these technologies and take hold of them. We give them those take-away resources, they can start experimenting -- or just simply experiencing and better understanding -- 3D VR/AR and how those can be used in learning at home. We mentioned applications like AR Maker, which helps you bring sketches and photos to a lively 3D format. And I'm getting a little ahead of your question [chuckles] but perhaps my favorite section, what we introduced in issue four -- we can back out a little bit too, perhaps I could talk about that later -- is tackling this issue that now with COVID, times often feel monotonous and uninspiring, quite simply. It's very easy -- as Julie and I have talked about a number of times -- to spend hours behind the phone, or another screen, mindlessly scrolling through social media feeds. And we really want to fill young people with a sense of purpose and get them curious and innovating again. I won't go too far ahead of myself on the Curiosity Project, as we wanted to talk about issue one. But it's very exciting work. It definitely fills me with a sense of purpose. And I hope that we can get several other students across the globe curious again.

Julie: Yeah, I think the fact that we moved to this curiosity piece in issue four, I kind of wish we had done it in one. But we had to lay the foundation of reasons why parents and students need to know this information. And just so you know, if it's-- it's not just for parents, it's not just for students, it's for everyone. It's for teachers and trainers, anybody that's just doesn't even know anything about this technology. And I think we did a really good job in explaining how VR and AR is transforming the workplace so that the kids, the students can prepare for what work is going to be like when they graduate school. And parents don't even know this, because it's not like it was when they went to school and when they got out, and they got a job that was paying a full time employment salary. Where today, entrepreneurship is a little bit more of the foundation of the gig economy. So things have changed quite a bit, especially introducing all of these different technologies into every single company that's out there, and providing those examples of how Wal-Mart's using it for training, or Intel's dealing with it, electrical safety training. This is really important to understand that even trades jobs are going to be impacted by this technology. And in what ways and how to understand everything from the technology itself, being inside the technology and then how it applies, and how to use it in the workforce, how to use all the tools around it to be creative and to activate. So preparing the parent and understanding-- for them to understand how to prepare their child for the future of work was kind of the mission from the beginning. And that starts right on issue number one. And I like the fact that we've stayed with the same type of categories, always reviewing the glossary terms, too, and with different animated gifs, or designs, or things like that, just to keep engaging the reader and introducing over and over again the different ways this technology is going to be used.

Olivia: We're currently-- we've published issues one through four, and we're currently finishing up issue five, and soon issue six. So if you're interested in reading them, we're publishing all on Medium right now, in a publication called the VR and AR Parent and Student Resource. And once this eight issue spread is finished, we'll send them out in other channels. It's a very powerful package. But maybe do we want to return back to the Curiosity Project?

Julie: Absolutely. Yeah.

Olivia: So I talked briefly about this previously, but we discussed the importance of curiosity. I won't go into too much detail now because, again, you could read more about it in the resources, which you definitely should, and you should share them. But studies have shown that curiosity leads to benefits such as better team performance, more creative solutions, fewer decision making errors, and the list goes on. So after that introduction to curiosity, and we do build on that some more in future issues, but we dive into this Curiosity Project. So each issue in our eight issue spread, starting with issue four, walks the reader through a what we call a phase of developing a 3D project in the MetaVRse engine. And the prompt, which we feel is very timely and very relatable, is what concept is difficult to learn in school, and how could it be improved with 3D? And so we walk them through reviewing this prompt, unpacking it, conducting research -- whether it's on the Internet and books, or really what we want is going out and talking to people -- defining their problem in their audience, the ideation, giving them different ideas for how to go about ideation, seeking feedback, planning a prototype. In issue five we dive really in-depth into specific considerations for wire framing and an immersive space. And then an upcoming issue is what we start to show the students -- and parents and anyone else who wants to read -- how they can actually bring these ideas that they're producing to life in the MetaVRse Engine. We have we have a new section that introduces a mini-challenge that can keep building those skills while working toward this cumulative MetaVRse engine Curiosity Project. And I absolutely love it. I agree with Julie, I wish we would have started in issue one. But as she said, it is really important that we build that baseline knowledge first, before perhaps we dive right into the creation process.

Julie: Well, it's been an incredible journey, because just only-- I think it was about two months ago, I was connected with somebody from the Massachusetts Science Fair. The executive director, Helen Rosenfeld, reached out to me and asked if her students can be a part of our committee and learn from us. And that was-- I think, for you and I, it was great to be able to have more students join in, and enthusiastic students that wanted to participate, wanted to contribute. And I think the realization for you and I was bringing our knowledge back to home base again and starting fresh, because realizing that even students today still need to start at issue one and learn about the different technologies right from the beginning. And that knowledge base is still not mainstream out there. And there's still a lot of people that need to catch up with regards to the applications of the technology and how they can be used. So it was a little bit of an eye opener, but already we're starting to see the acceleration. Students in my mind are -- well, in everybody's mind, I think -- they're so passionate and interested and want to be engaged, that these students that have joined us now are contributing and opening our eyes into different ways of trying to share out the Curiosity Project. So maybe share a little bit of your experience now, dealing with these students who are looking to contribute and wanting to contribute towards sharing their information and their experience.

Olivia: I think you really hit it on the nail, having different perspectives. We are lucky to have a fairly actually diverse knowledge range in our committee. Some people were pretty much brand new to the technology. Some had some limited exposure. Some had some experience tinkering in different engines. And as you said, they were really able to explore those first few issues, and point out some areas where perhaps we were a little too complicated in our language or where we weren't super clear. I could give a basic example about who specifically are we targeting. One of the students made a great point that perhaps for these particular issues, a younger student below grade six may not totally understand just the way we had written it. So we were able to add a target audience to our previous and future issues. But the major thing is providing feedback on what we've already written and helping us better understand how we can be more approachable to a broader audience and really affect change, and then moving forward how we can actually keep people more engaged. So I mentioned that mini-challenge section. That was the idea of one of our amazing students on the committee. How do we actually get people working and applying what they're learning in our resource to their real world? So it's been an absolute pleasure to work with them and I'm so excited to have them on the committee.

Julie: And I would like to just remind people that we're dealing with 16, 17, 18 year olds, high school students who are really interested in this technology and want to understand more. So building up this Curiosity Project, I'm certainly interested to see how it unfolds, both from just a design perspective in using-- I know that they were working with Tinkercad, I know that the MetaVRse 3D Engine was also being used. But encouraging any of these students to start playing with the tools, the creator tools that are out there, to start learning and working with three dimensions and spatial presence is so important right now at this stage of learning about XR technologies, because we need to build in 3D. We need to be present in the spatial experience, and being able to understand that is first and foremost. So it's great to have all of these students on board now and giving us their feedback. Olivia, thank you so much for your contributions, your leadership. And I want to say just the leadership that I've witnessed from you over the last year and a half has been incredible, to be able to pull these resources together. And now leading these students is really something that I think you should be proud of. I certainly am proud of you. So thank you very much. I'd love to just get a take on what does this fall look like for you, going back to school? It's a little bit different, obviously, than where you left off in the fall and now you're going to a new school. What do you think would be the best advice for students going back into the fall like yourself, into school, and obviously taking it upon themselves to learn more about this technology, so maybe you can share a little bit of thoughts there?

Olivia: First of all, thank you so much for your compliments about the leadership. I could not have done it -- and cannot do it -- without your mentorship. So-- and of course, all of the students in the committee who are working hard, generating ideas, writing content for the issues, and the other amazing mentors we have on our team. So this fall, I'm headed to Harvard, as I mentioned before. While I will be on campus, all of my classes are online, so I'll be learning completely remotely. I'm excited to start this new chapter of my life, but I am definitely concerned -- as are, I think, most students -- about what learning will look like. I'm optimistic, because I know teachers will be a little bit more prepared, for sure. And I know my professors and I'm sure all of them are working extremely hard to deliver as a seamless of a learning experience as they can. But I would say that my major concerns lie in our ability to really work collaboratively and foster relationships, to meet and work with people that will push you in terms of how you think and your preconceived notions about the world. I do think that immersive technologies -- as we discuss in our issues -- offer a really unique opportunity for us to build those relationships and maintain them and collaborate. We talk about a few collaborative applications in our issues that could potentially be used. But knowing the state of the platforms that will be using going in, I'm pretty sure that those won't be employed for the most part in the classroom setting. So I'll have to rest with that concern for now, I suppose.

Julie: School is certainly going to change in keeping us away from those classrooms, in some cases. But working together with others and collaborating especially with other students, I think is a very inspiring thing. And if more schools can start to take a look at the collaborative nature of working together and learning together, it certainly sets apart from being so alone -- taking school and taking courses -- and being able to learn together, I think is one of the greatest things that we can do right now, because there's so much information to take on. Using these XR platforms to meet and collaborate is going to only enhance that communication. So I, like you, look forward to the day when some of these things can be implemented into the classroom. But until then, we come back to the parents, we come back to family, and we come back to the students actually going to be looking for these resources to help them learn. And that's the work that you and I have been doing. So I'm really excited to be able to release these parent and student issues. And maybe, Olivia, do you want to close this off with a little bit of a learning lesson, whether it's for a student, or a parent, or a teacher, anybody out there? Is there some advice that you would like to share with everyone?

Olivia: Oh, sure. [laughs] So I would say the best piece of advice I've ever been given is to words: ask questions. And I'll expand on that a little bit. This gets back to what we talk about with curiosity. If you ask questions about anything and everything that sparks your curiosity, anything that inspires you, that interests you, go talk to your parents. Go talk to your teachers. Go talk to your sister, your brother, your friends, your neighbors. Reach out to an industry professional in that field. Type it in on Google. When you ask questions about anything that sparks your curiosity, you will uncover a world of possibilities and opportunities. And I think that's the most powerful thing that you can do, is to just ask questions about anything that sparks your interest. Never be afraid to ask a question.

Julie: Also, recap on the parent and student resources issues, one through four are now available, and we're going to put those in the link to the podcast so everybody can have access to them. I think the message that we also want is for everyone to share these resources within your communities, your organizations, schools, parent councils. Students can take them into their student councils to help bridge that knowledge gap of understanding how immersive technologies will be applied to business and education. And I would also, Olivia, like to invite you back into part two of this podcast. And what I'd like to do is do a recap of the Curiosity Project and we'll cover off issues five through eight, which are expected to hopefully in the next couple of weeks -- we're kind of pushing our time a little bit -- but over the next couple of weeks, we'll close off with the rest of those. And I'd love to invite you back and hopefully you can find some time in your busy schedule to do another recording with me. So thank you so much for being on our podcast today, and continue the work that you're doing. It's so great for you to be a part of this community, and I've enjoyed mentoring you. My message to all of those that are listening out there is make sure you spend some time mentoring the next generation. Learn together and help each other during this time of exponential growth, where there's so much to know, there's so much to learn, so much to adjust to, and there's a lot of change happening right now. Thank you, Olivia, for being here with me today.

Olivia: Thank you for having me, for being my mentor and for inviting me for part two. I can't wait to record it.

After a short hiatus, Julie is back with a special episode, where she interviews (is interviewed by?) her partner in business and life, Alan Smithon, who you may know from our sister podcast, XR for Business.

Julie: Hi, my name is Julie Smithson.

Alan: And I'm Alan Smithson.

Julie: And this is the XR for Learning podcast.

Alan: Well... which podcast are we on? Is it mine or yours?

Julie: I think it's mine.

Alan: Yours, so the XR for Learning podcast.

Julie: Yeah.

Alan: I'm going to interview you.

Julie: Yes.

Alan: OK, cool.

Julie: Hi, my name is Julie Smithson, and I am your XR for Learning podcast host. In all of my episodes, I talk about the way that we need to change the way that we learn and we teach, to adapt to the immersive technologies that are being implemented in enterprise and business today. So today, my guest -- my special guest -- is Alan Smithson.

Alan: Hello.

Julie: My partner and husband of almost 20 years. And we're going to talk about education. So welcome. Thanks for being on *my* podcast.

Alan: Thank you so much for having me. I'm a little nervous, I'm not going to lie. This is an interesting podcast dynamic.

Julie: It really is. We've never done this before.

Alan: No, we have not. So I want to ask you questions, because you are the guru in immersive learning systems. So we'll hopefully kind of dig up where this lies, and what we have to do as a society to really push the needle forward.

Julie: So what I like to do with all my podcasts is start with a baseline technology. Where are we today? Like, what's going on today? Which is really good question, because it's definitely different than it was six months ago.

Alan: I would say, in the industry-- I'm coming from the business side of things. What we've seen is there's been a hyper-acceleration of digitization. So in retail and e-com, it has been decimated. People couldn't go to a store physically, and so everything moved online. And in e-commerce, we're seeing shopping trends that would have existed in 2030 happen today. This is trickling down to everything, not only retail, but then also meetings. Everybody's meeting on Zoom these days. Everybody. There's just-- we're moving to digital and we're moving to these things much faster than we had ever, ever hoped to do. Plans of digital transformation that would have taken five years are now happening today. So it's an interesting time to revisit and relook at what does education look like in an exponential world of digital transformation.

Julie: And this is where the skillsets that are now needed -- in enterprise, business, and organizations today to digitally transform -- those skillsets are not being taught in the school system today. So COVID coming in and forcing people to virtually connect online, the education systems were forced to actually be online and rethink how they're teaching things. But the unfortunate thing is, is that we didn't get to the point of talking about what we were actually teaching. It was just more of a digital connection for the past six months.

Alan: Well, I think since this thing has hit, it's been really just how do we make the technology work in a seamless way that is comfortable for both the teachers and the students? And to be honest, we're not quite there yet. My kids are more tech savvy than--

Julie: Our kids.

Alan: Our kids. I'm sorry, oh my goodness! Wow, what a crazy dynamic! Our children! Obviously, we're in a tech forward household, but our children are way more tech savvy than their teachers. And it almost feels like the teachers are not getting the resources they need to bring digital into the class, even though we have no choice right now. And in the fall, one of our daughters is going back to school full time and the other is going in some sort of part time rotation thing. That's for now. That could change next week. The uncertainty, I think, is one of the biggest problems with everybody right now. So how can teachers right now leverage the tools that exist now? The Zooms, the VirBELAs, the ENGAGEs. How can they use these platforms on the devices that everybody has already, to just give a better experience right now with what we have in our hands right now?

Julie: Well, it's a tricky situation, because you have different systems. And I don't like to just think in Canadian terms, because you and I deal with very different things that are happening in the United States, that are dealing with Europe, that are countries like Uganda, all over the world. This is the first time that the world is faced with the same problem at the same time, in the same situation with COVID. And it has made everybody sit back and go, "Whoa, how do we now deal with education?" But what are we really teaching about education? And the point about teachers, they're the actual key to everything right now, they hold that base knowledge that we need to transfer to students. The unfortunate thing right now is the content that they're teaching is--

Alan: Here's the interesting thing. There's nothing wrong with the content. It really comes down to can we use this, instead of looking at it as a bad thing -- where nobody can go back to school and everything's digital -- instead of looking that as a bad thing, can we leverage this unique opportunity to then say, "OK, this teacher is really, really the best teacher in math," so instead of him teaching only 30 students here, he can have a reach or she can have a reach to thousands of students coming in and learning from the best. And how can we leverage these tools to give them more of a personalized learning experience to every student? Not every student wants to memorize everything, and not every student learns at the same speed. Our current system before COVID pushed everybody through at the exact same speed in every course. But it left some behind, when you graduate from grade 10 to grade 11, really you can't read, but you got pushed through anyway. It didn't really give the students that needed more time in certain things and less time in others to-- it's not flexible for the students. So maybe being digital, we can create this kind of flexible, personalized learning. What do you think?

Julie: Yeah, this is where the hybrid system comes in. And I should retract what I just recently said, because I said the content that they're teaching right now is not for the future. And it's really important that we understand and still learn about our history, where we came from, and how we're digitizing moving forward. And this is where that hybrid system will come into play, to help us move forward and implement digitization into the lessons that we have. Our teachers [are] being pushed into managing multiple different courses with multiple different kids. How overwhelming is that, to manage 30 different personalities with a whole bunch of different subjects? We would never ask a store manager to do that same thing.

Alan: You wouldn't ask any employee. "Here, you're going to do five jobs." I guess a startup would.

Julie: [laughs] "Welcome to entrepreneurship." And you know what, that's fine. But we're talking about education right now. We're talking about trying to give each student an individualized lesson plan, personalized to them. And that's the way the system now needs to change, because every student needs to register online to access the portal -- shall you call it -- to connect with the education system, to connect with their teacher.

Alan: So do you see this as something that would be built from a school board level, or a local level? Is this a national level?

Julie: It's going to have to be embedded into every level, I think. It always starts at home, it always starts in the local communities. But the voices of change need to come from the top. Governments need to support the change and understand that. I think there's a lot of countries with unions, and I think unions really need to learn about how things are going to transition if they're going to represent the teachers well, because there's so much change for teachers there. Even I'm overwhelmed thinking about what they're facing and the challenges of-- even the personalities of the students, right down to the core of how they're executing their documents, when the students aren't even in front of them.

Alan: With our own daughter, one of the teachers was teaching using an antiquated version of Word, and the kids had to submit in this antiquated version of Word. And this was a 10 year old version of a software that nobody has access to anymore. And that one little thing--

Julie: She was so frustrated.

Alan: Everybody was frustrated, because the kids are like, "Well, we're on Google Docs over here for everything else, and you're using this thing." So I think it's-- does it require more training of teachers in technical skills?

Julie: Absolutely, absolutely. They need to learn how to operate the system that they're given, first of all. That's on them. They're going to have to, because the education systems, until they see or know or understand a better way of doing things, they're going to force what's in front of them. So they need to learn to digitally connect. They need to learn to constantly change themselves and understand that they're going to have to--

Alan: It's interesting you say that. And I really think this is an interesting point. If you look at pretty much everybody in the workforce right now, they're constantly and consistently going for new trainings and learning, upgrading their skills, because as technology changes every other industry rapidly, people just have to learn. They're going on Udacity, or Udemy, or LinkedIn learning and just finding and consuming this learning and getting these little certificates. But students in schools and even the teachers, they have ongoing learnings where they go to courses and stuff, and so there's that. But it's not encouraged in students to be finding what they're passionate about, and going and learning it. Because it's not even shown that they can learn anything they want.

Julie: No, it's a very directive way.

Alan: It's like "Here, you're not going to learn this and only this, and we're not going to tell you that--

Julie: So structured.

Alan: --a whole world of knowledge exists beyond just a few click strokes and going on Udemy and a free course," and now you're learning about AI, or you're learning about robotics, or you're learning about macramé. It doesn't matter. But you're learning, you're learning about training dogs, whatever you're passionate about. I think the school system needs to foster--

Julie: Creativity.

Alan: --creativity, but also innovation. And then how do you encourage people to try the myriad of things, and then really dive into the ones that encourage them for that? How do you do that?

Julie: So there obviously needs to be structure. Systems don't work without systems. And this is where--

Alan: I'm going to take that quote. "Systems don't work without systems." It's so true.

Julie: [laughs] They really don't. And education teaches that structure system. It provides that daily: you have to be here at this time, and recess is at this time, lunch is at this time. Which we do that at home, but essentially kids spend more time at school with that type of structure, to teach them how to report in, how to handle things, and how to work in groups, and do all of those things. And they've done very well. But now how do we structure in a new way, to innovate and stir curiosity?

Alan: How do we leverage the massive amount of learning tools online for kids in a school system? That should be-- maybe it's just as simple as replacing one of the courses with one you just have to learn-- you have to take a course on this, and it has to be a minimum of this. Anything you want, like the ultimate elective. How can we add functionality to the existing system, the education system globally, not just in Canada or US or Europe, but just globally, adding two very simple things: gratitude, mindfulness and deep breathing exercises, and then also financial planning and investing, and these kind of-- those two things there aren't taught really at any school level. And if we had them as a kind of a regular habitual thing right after the national anthem, you take three deep breaths. Here, let's do that right now. Let's do two breaths.

Julie: Yeah, okay. We'll do that. Okay. And not just for the morning, just any time you feel stressed. And you know who also encourages this, is Caitlin Krause from MindWise. She's great at creating that presence. And if everybody kind of takes that three breaths to heart, whenever you're stressed, whenever you don't know what to do, whenever you are just not sure of anything, or things are overwhelming.

Alan: Yeah, it's really a physiologically and mentally stimulating exercise, that puts you in the right mindset. By hyper-oxygenating your blood, you can think clearly, obviously. It seems like an obvious thing, but we don't teach it. And I think if we can build this into the morning ritual of every school. This was one thing that will give kids a tool to deal with the stresses as we enter into exponential growth in digital transformation.

Julie: Email a lot of them.

Alan: In six seconds. [inhales] Hold. Let it out really slow [exhales] really slow. Now, take a deep breath and hold it is deep as you can. [inhales] And out, really slow. [exhales] All the way out, push it out. And one deep, deep breath. [inhales] Hold it. And let it slow. [exhales] Now, just take a second to feel the clarity.

Julie: Yeah, feels good. Your body just automatically feels like there's more air. And you can breath better.

Alan: And you're kind of forced to sit up. You can't take any breath slouched over, so it forces you to sit up. So anyway, that's one thing. And then the second thing that I think we can build right into, that's, what, 30 seconds of a school day. And the other one would be a simple gratitude journal. So write three things you're grateful for, put your book away. And those two things will set every kid's day up right. Beyond that, there's things like yoga--

Julie: You can get into that.

Alan: You can get all into that. But I think those two things could be added to every school system with the stroke of a pen. "There, we've just now improved our school system." Second thing is once a week we get together as a class and we look at our finances. Here's where I am, here's where you are. Oh, I spent money here and balancing your financial world.

Julie: Which has never been taught. And I think it's a huge key to that piece within you to go about your daily lives unstressed about not being able to pay for things, and as a huge part of our life is paying for things.

Alan: Well, it's uncertainty. In no level of school do we make it a habit to look at these things. If you're just going to have it every Friday at 3 PM, I look at my finances and go, "OK, cool, this is where I am. This is my my assets. Oh, look, my investment over here and a little bit better."

Julie: And even little kids.

Alan: We could even create some real money for each child. Start with a $100 investment fund in grade one, and they're not allowed to touch it until they're in grade eight, and every kid gets to pick their own stocks.

Julie: This is where banking institutions need to play up. So in social responsibility for their own economic.

Alan: And as long as they do it when we are basically you're graded on it. And if as long as you check in once a week and check all your balances and it's done on your phone, any device. Or most kids have a phone or access to some sort of computer, and you could do it. Banks could then start to have a relationship with children earlier, but in a much more healthy relationships around saving, investing, learning where the money comes from. Personal financial management is essential. So those two things right there, combined with adding all these digital aspects of personalized learning, how do you think we can implement that at a global level?

Julie: Yeah, so this is where-- before we did all those great things, this is where I want to talk about gaming. How many kids around the world have joined Fortnite working in teams? Our daughter's been working with our niece, two hours away in their teams--

Alan: It's funny, because Epic Games has gone from this game engine to this global phenomenon with millions of kids playing this. And Tomorrowland just partnered with Epic Game' Unreal Engine, and did the Tomorrowland concert.

Julie: Yeah.

Alan: Like last week. And they had something like 150 percent more attendees than the physical one.

Julie: Yeah.

Alan: People are getting used to these worlds that they can move around with. What is next, and how do we incorporate education into that?

Julie: Yeah. So coming back to the gamification and how kids are going to transform from being in Fortnite for the last six months in COVID times to the classroom, because they're used to gaming all day.

Alan: Can we make the classroom into Fortnite?

Julie: [laughs] It comes back to the gaming motivation model. It's something that I learned from the conference GDC this year, why kids-- and how kids are so intrigued in the gaming world, and the challenges that they need to do to get where they need to be. And it incorporates everything from fantasy, from working with others, to having admission, and then being able to accomplish that. Now, when you think about gaming, what do you think about?

Alan: Mostly shooting.

Julie: Bombs, you should think about shooting, and who wants to think about that? There's no system in the world that wants to engage a student through education with a gun in their hand.

Alan: Basically what you're saying is, Fortnite minus the guns plus some educational content.

Julie: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So we need to focus on gaming without guns. Games for Change is doing some great stuff. And OK, so now you think about gaming, but what if you can game with Lego? What if you could create a solution out of gaming, and creating that mastery class out of admission? Kids loved it and they wanted to be a part of it. The biggest thing about gaming is that once you do all of those steps, once you have that excitement, you create a team, you have a challenge, and you think about all the things that you can do and have that fantasy level, then it goes into "I want more, I want to do another level, I want to play another game." That's where the "I love to learn" comes in. Can you imagine if kids wanted to know more, and they could engage on a daily basis--

And they could make a real difference? This is, I think, the problem that we don't teach people that they can make a difference, they teach them to get a job. What job do you want? What do you want to do in work? What job do you want? And that is the wrong question. The right question is what probably do you want to solve? What challenge do you want to tackle? We're not-- we don't get presented the challenges. But if we started systematically presenting the world's challenges. "Here's the problem in a global level. Here's the problem at a national level. Here's the problem at the provincial or state level. Here's a problem at a local community level."

Julie: And it starts in community.

Alan: So I'm reading a book by Marc Prensky, called "Education to Better Their World: Unleashing the Power of 21st Century Kids." And one of the main things is, what if we then incorporated one class, one hour a day devoted to solve a challenge or problem in the world? It could be global. It could be local. It could be as simple as planting a vegetable garden for your community. It could be anything. Imagine if every class did that and then we had awards for this and then we can inspire the next year to think even bigger. Imagine the good that would come of our communities, in one hour for every class. Could be one hour a week, really.

Julie: Yeah, yeah. And I think that we need to also try and do this in a digital way.

Alan: Of course. We have bigger scale.

Julie: And this is where the hybrid system comes to play. And a lot of people ask me, "OK, Julie, what do we need to do?" Then I think the students are a big part of the solution. They're so smart, they're so ready to be a part of things. They're ready to change. But they need our leadership. They need to know what they need to solve. And this is where one of the things I'm working on is, is that big play between enterprise and education systems to build partnerships to solve their problems. Take a look at what classroom subjects can be taught digitally online best, what subjects can be solved to teach in different ways, using this technology to extend that out.

Alan: What I think we need is we need to approach innovation in education the same way we approach innovation in enterprise.

Julie: Yeah.

Alan: And one of the major hurdles that we're running into as a company -- a startup ourselves with MetaVRse -- is the time it takes to go through procurement with large companies. They're actually hindering themselves now, because technology is moving so fast. By the time their slow procurement process takes place, the innovation's already onto the next iteration and their competitors -- if they have a tight procurement process -- they're already all using that technology. And technology's moving so fast and iterating so quickly now that you need it immediately. Now, to put that in perspective, all three branches of the US military have gone to a quick procurement system for technology. They have a six week window. You apply and you're either-- they buy it or they don't within six weeks. It's a-- your maximum ten page submission with a maximum ten slide pitch deck. So they've completely got rid of these five hundred page things. It's like you have an innovation? Because the innovations are getting smaller too. They're becoming more niche. Their software is really solving these things. AI is solving predictive maintenance problems, predicting all sorts of things. So in order to have the best innovation -- and we're not doing this with education at all -- in order to have the best innovation, you must simplify and shorten the procurement process. And so that has to happen as well. So enterprise is already starting to work on this and they're shortening the procurement process. It's getting there. But in education, we haven't changed our procurement processes in... ever. For 20 years.

Julie: Yeah. So I think it really comes down to what does a school year mean? The one thing that it comes down to with school is that we only reward the kids once a year for passing a grade. And 365 days is actually a lifetime in a company. There's so many things that can happen in one year now. We're on that exponential growth stage.

Alan: It's crazy. And we don't apply any of this innovation directly to education. And I keep thinking of this one-- I can't remember who said it, I think it was Rita Hoffman. "If it doesn't scale, it doesn't matter." We have to think locally and engage our students in their local communities, but again, we also need to let them know that they can create a piece of software that goes viral around the world. They already have the mindset of that because they see TikToks that go viral and go around the world. But instead of a little dance, maybe you solve a problem that makes you rich.

Julie: Yeah.

Alan: Because right now AI is making people rich on a daily basis. You saw one small problem for a factory that saves some $50-million, you're rich.

Julie: Yeah.

Alan: So and these are algorithms that, once you solve that one, change the algorithm. China's training their grade five students on AI algorithms now.

Julie: Yeah. Let's circle back to what we can do today, because that's what everybody's most stressed about. We're stressed about that. That's 30 days away. And these kids are going back to school. Or they're not. There are certain places around the world where they're not.

Alan: Ok, so what are some resources that we can talk about right now that people can use outside of the school system? Because the school systems right now, they need love. If you're part of a school system, you're part of the executive, and you want to introduce us, we're happy to meet with school boards, governments. We're really happy to help. Julie's world leader on this, obviously. So reach out to us, [email protected]. With that said, what do we do in the fall? So, one thing that I think -- and I want to start doing with our kids, as well -- is as part of their-- our curriculum, not schools' curriculum, but our curriculum. They're going to have to take an online course on something. University of Michigan, for example, they have something like 200 courses available for free online now. So it's just a matter of going through and saying, "You know what, I like that." But how do we motivate them? And I think it has to be forced on them for now. I don't know. If anybody has another way, carrot versus stick, I don't know yet.

Julie: Yeah, the whole inspiration part is, I think, going to be the trickiest to try and literally reach into that computer and get the kids attention on the other end. And also being that teacher to be able to manage that. And it's really important that school systems support the teachers right now.

Alan: Yeah, they really do.

Julie: A lot of technology information sessions, just what tools can be in place that make that little bit of difference to manage a student on the other end of that connection? Because we're not going back to-- well, except for our kids, but we need to look at that virtual online setup. What does that look like? That looks like my child being able to connect with a human, first thing--

Alan: And then how do we make sure that every student has access to technology and the Internet? That's a whole other problem. I mean--

Julie: Well, let's start there. I actually think there's a huge mandate now for corporate responsibility. And it also comes from the sustainability factor to recycle some of this gear that flips over every six months, and being able to use that and recycle that through the systems. There's a responsibility for corporations to also sponsor and donate schools with the most up to date stuff so that they can stay innovative.

Alan: But how do we make that universally accessible? So that may be great in Silicon Valley, where a tech company donates a million dollars to a local school, that's great for that local school. How do we make that accessible in the inner city in south Chicago?

Julie: Yeah, it's going to come down to budgets and that's a hard thing to swallow.

Alan: Well--

Julie: There needs to be money put towards that.

Alan: Governments have printed over $5-trillion for the last four months. Maybe we could trickle some of that down to education.

Julie: Yeah, I think that we'll start to see family companies of investment start to--

Alan: Family offices

Julie: Family offices, and it'll--

Alan: Ed-tech's hot.

Julie: Yeah.

Alan: Ed-tech is one of the fastest growing tech segments in the world. It's estimated to go from about six -- is it trillion? It *is* trillion, isn't it? -- six trillion globally. So the global education industry right now is around six trillion, and it's estimated to go to 10 trillion by 2030. That's all education and training. So enterprise training, schools, universities, everything, the whole budget.

Julie: So the big factor here is corporate responsibility, because if corporations don't invest--

Alan: You either invest early in the kids education or you invest when they become employees of yours and they don't know anything that you need them to know.

Julie: That's right. And that's why we need to start to implement this into an elementary school, into every single school, secondary schools, colleges, universities. Because if enterprise doesn't have the talent, they're not going to be able to be in business.

Alan: You're absolutely right. And you have groups like TKS -- The Knowledge Society -- they're kind of taking the top one percent of students, and then really giving them a personalized "Hey, you're into artificial intelligence? Perfect. Let's go meet with the profs at UFT who invented it." Talk about proper immersion into a subject. But can we then still bring a 360 camera for that meeting where that kid meets the inventor of AI captured, so every kid who's interested can out on a VR headset and experience that same meeting? So can we start to use these technologies to grab these personalized moments of learning?

Julie: Sure, we can do it all. And that's the thing, there's so many resources out there right now that are starting to put these pieces together to be able to do that. We're just not quite there yet. In the meantime, let's talk about just quickly, what can can schools do in the next 30 days? What can teachers do, parents and students? What can everybody do today? So the first thing that I always tell a school is create your tech team. Every school needs a tech team. It needs have to have both teachers and students on it.

Alan: You need two geeky teachers and 10 geeky students.

Julie: Yeah, yeah. But not even geeky. And I think this is another perception of this technology--

Alan: Yeah, but it's cool to be geeky, though.

Julie: For sure. But it's not just about technology. There's so many other facets. And the other week I spoke with Girls Inc and MasterCard to inspire the next generation. And different skillsets that are coming out, they're different project management roles, and graphic designers, 3D modelers. There's so many different jobs that are out there. But our school system isn't teaching any of them.

Alan: And showing it.

Julie: Yeah. So that's why I talk a lot about 3D learning, and trying to introduce augmented reality more into the lessons. And augmented reality seems like a really freaky thing, but it's Snapchat and Instagram face filters, essentially.

Alan: Snapchat has something like 125 million AR filters a day.

Julie: Yeah.

Alan: And over the next, I would say three to five, maybe six years, we're going to go from the phone to a pair of glasses that you put on your head and now your whole world is a computer. So spatial learning will be something that is just available to everybody because the glasses are cheap. So how do we then get people to start creating in 3D?

Julie: This is where,, I guess enter the MetaVRse 3D Engine.

Alan: I mean, this is the whole reason we made this thing is to make it easy for people to make 3D. But I mean, beyond just us, there's got to be people making 3D objects. But one of the things that's coming faster than we anticipated was the phones now have Lidar scanners or infrared scanners on them, so they can scan rooms, or people, or places and convert them into 3D instantly. I made a 3D bust of my brother by walking around in a circle. It was crazy. So the tools to create 3D assets are getting easier to use. And then the tools to make experiences with those three sets are getting easier to use, like MetaVRse and Unity and Unreal. I think the tool boxes are getting better. But how do we expose kids to those toolboxes?

Julie: Yeah, so it's going to take still a lot of time to be able to introduce this technology. It's going to be really important for school systems and teachers to lead the way to educate. But it's also going to play a huge role on parents to introduce resources for their kids, because [it's] every parent's responsibility to teach their kids as well. We can't completely depend on our education systems to catch up in time. And for us, we have unions in our system and to be able to flip over and change any kind of content has been has been years of change. We don't have that time. And that's what's really scary right now. So this is where a system of innovation from students, being able to give them a mission and a goal, something to inspire them. Inspiration is going to be so important in a school system right now. Having a teacher, the teacher's role, acceptance from the students is going to be key.

Alan: They have to also have-- it has to be a bidirectional learning. Teachers are not the stage anymore. They-- trust me, your students know more than you. If you're a teacher and you think you know more than your students, you don't. They have access to the world's knowledge. Ask them any fact and give them their phone for 30 seconds and they will find it. They probably won't even type. They will just ask it into--

Julie: The voice text thing.

Alan: --into Siri, Google, whatever, Amazon.

Julie: Our kids amaze us and teach us every day. And I think it's really important for families, too. And we've had this time with our families the last couple of months. But to really open up that communication and listen to how kids approach technology, because that's how it needs to change, because they're building the communications. And even for me, just keeping up with TikTok right now, and the acceptance and communication between Snapchat and what's important to them. And even through the little kids -- just the other day we talked about this, the little girl who we know that was so upset, losing a pet in Roblox -- and the social impact these games are playing right now. The kids are already connected. They're there already, so for them to move over to a system online, it's going to be no big deal for them, at all.

Alan: These are digital native kids, they were raised with a cell phone in their hand and a soother.

Julie: And they already have emotions and connections to that digital technology. So now it's going to be the responsibility of the systems to build out the right processes, systems, implementing this new mindfulness technique, to be able to handle the digitization of their world, because nobody's used to being this connected. And it's only going to be more and more. So it's so important that we take the time to breathe and we take a day off. We do celebration Saturdays, but we try to do sleepy Sundays and we plan to do that tomorrow. Sleepy Sundays is our try to [dis]connect for at least 24 hour period.

Alan: Try to disconnect and just try to turn your phone off, and all your technology once a week. It's very difficult, but it's a worthwhile endeavor, and go for a hike and enjoy nature. I think this is comes down to the parents as well. You know, we have to get back to nature a little bit, as much as the digital world is going to drive our economy and drive our daily lives. We also have to retreat into the solace of nature and get back to the basics of the earth. And if we don't do that, if people only see the inner walls of a building in a city, they don't understand why we need to protect the environment. In order to realize why you need to protect the environment, you have to enjoy the environment, enjoy nature. So whenever possible, schools should also take children on trips just to walk in the forest, just to go and enjoy nature. This should be part of our lives. On that note, Julie, this has been a really amazing experience.

Julie: We should do it again sometime. It's fun. And thank you for joining me. There's a lot of pieces to the puzzle. There's a lot to learn. It's important that everybody continues to learn, and not just my podcast or Alan's podcast, but listen to the voices out there that are sharing ways to change, to build efficiencies in your life using the digital technologies that are out there and take it upon yourself to to help others.

Alan: Thank you for listening. If you want to learn more, you can go to xrforlearning.io. My podcast will be on there as well, xrforbusiness.io.

Julie: We also have a great resource at XR Collaboration.

Alan: XRcollaboration.com. And there's also XR Ignite, which is our community. And you can go to xrignite.com, as well.

Julie: And lastly, just MetaVRse. MetaVRse.com, you can't forget that.

Alan: Oh, of course. [laughs] What funds all of this is metavrse.com. And if you're a developer and you want to just skip all the marketing stuff and go straight into it, it's engine.metavrse.com. It's free to join, check it out. And...

Julie: That's it.

Alan: Thank you so much, everyone.

Julie: Thanks very much. And thanks for joining, everyone.

Alan: Bye!

Designing a user experience (UX) and ensuring accessibility in XR boils down to basically the same task; addressing the needs of the user. We have Dylan Fox and Devin Boyle from XR Access on to talk about designing with accessibility in mind from the start, and discuss the upcoming 2020 XR Access Symposium.

Julie: Hello, my name is Julie Smithson, and I am your XR for Learning podcast host. I look forward to bring you insight into changing the way that we learn and teach using XR technologies to explore, enhance and individualize learning for everyone. Today, my guests come from XR Access. Dylan Fox is a user experience designer, specializing in design for emerging technologies. He brings together user needs, technological capabilities, and stakeholder requirements to design accessible products. And his master's thesis was on augmented reality for the visually impaired, exploring Microsoft Hololens as an assistive device. And Devin Boyle is an advisor to XR Access, working groups and emerging technology lead for the Partnership on Employment & Accessible Technology -- otherwise known as PEAT -- supporting efforts to ensure emerging technologies are born accessible. She has more than 10 years of experience in policy analysis and development, stakeholder engagement, strategic communication, and advocacy and partnership building. Thank you both for joining me today.

So, Dylan, can you give me a little bit of an outline of the work that you're doing in building a better user experience for those with accessibility challenges?

Dylan: All right. Thanks, Julie. I'm Dylan. I'm a user experience designer. Just recently finished up my Master's at UC Berkeley, and now working in accessible design for bridging technologies for all sorts of things. So for me, I see my role initially as a UX designer, which is a user experience designer and somebody who understands user needs; what people need out of technology, what people expect from technology, how they understand it, and how we can design it to better work for them. And I worked for as a UX designer for a couple of years, but only recently have I really realized just how much UX can learn from the field of accessibility, because accessibility is fundamentally about addressing user needs. Some of the work I've been doing lately is with XR Access, of course. We've been trying to understand what those user needs are, across a wide spectrum when it comes to virtual and augmented reality. I've also been doing some work with UC Berkeley, doing some research with private companies who want to make their work more accessible, and make sure their users get everything that they need out of their software.

Julie: We'll dive a little bit more into the UI and the work that you're doing at XR access. But I wanted to allow Devin to just give a little bit of an introduction, and how you got involved and what your involvement is with XR Access and working with Dylan and accessibility.

Devin: Sure. Thanks, Julie, for having us on. I'm Devin Boyle. I am an adviser to XR Access and emerging tech lead for the Partnership on Employment & Accessible Technology. And I came to this space in a little different road from Dylan, a little bit different path. I actually come from a background of being a convener. So one of my roles within XR Access is to bring together these six different working groups -- that we'll likely get into in this conversation -- but to bring folks together and also to support communications, communicating internally and externally why industry needs to ensure different technologies, emerging technologies are accessible.

Julie: Let's kick off with what are those working groups? And then we can go over and talk about it with Dylan. How about user experiences, maybe? Devin, can you outline those six working groups?

Devin: Sure, Julie. I'm happy to talk a little bit about our working group. So we have six XR access working groups -- what we call working groups -- as part of our work within XR Access. And the focus of the working groups is really to help raise awareness of the importance of accessibility in XR, and also to bring together folks so that they can collaborate with other folks that are interested in making their technologies accessible, but also people that want to learn about the importance of accessibility. We have advocates. We have people from academia. We have people from industry organizations like Google and Microsoft. Those types of organizations usually come to the table in our conversations. But another important aspect of our working groups is every working group, we're made up of a diverse group of folks that include people with disabilities, which is one of the things we can get into later in this conversation. But it's always important to have people with disabilities at the table.

Anyway, I digress a bit. The six working groups we have, the first is focused on guidelines, policies, and practices. And the focus of that is to really research and analyze and collaborate with stakeholders to, at the end of the day, put together recommendations to inform the development of accessible emerging tech, moving forward. Then we have an awareness and outreach group, and the focus of that is on basically external communication, amplifying the why and the how of accessible emerging technology. We do have an education group, which edges the lines with some of the work you're talking about for this podcast, Julie. They really focus on building awareness in the K-12 higher ed context, to make sure that educators understand the ins and outs of accessible technology and how accessibility is important in the classroom when it comes to technology. We have Dylan's group -- which I think he'll talk a little bit more about -- and his group is application accessibility, and I'll leave it up to him to describe that. We also have a hardware devices group, which they focus on hardware and all the headsets people put on to make sure that they are accessible. And then finally, content and authoring group, which focuses on considering how producers, designers, developers can create accessible content for people with disabilities. So that's our six.

Julie: Well, that's great. That gives us a lot of stuff to unpack. And it's great to see the movement in every aspect, to see how we can implement accessibility for everyone. I'd love to take it over to Dylan. And Dylan, maybe you can set the stage for what it's like right now, for somebody with an accessibility challenge dealing with technology. Not just our smartphone devices where they've been around for years, but now we're starting to talk about using virtual reality and and immersing people who have accessibility challenges, whether they have a limited vision or hearing, some may not even have limbs, or this technology now allows them to be mobile, changing their perception inside of a spatial environment.

Dylan: Absolutely, Julie. I think the unfortunate side of things right now is that if you have a disability, there are going to be a lot of applications in VR and in AR that you're just not going to be able to use. Unfortunately, even on a platform level, things are tough right now. If you are, for example, blind, well, you try to get an Oculus Quest, one of the first things that does when you boot it up is say, "Hey, OK, go over to your iPhone or your Android, and plug in this code." And there is no option to read that code out. So we had one of our members had to ask a neighbor to, "Hey, can you put on this headset and read this code out to me?" Right now, what we're seeing is there are a few studios, a few developers that kind of go out of their way, go the extra mile in order to make things accessible. I know Owlchemy Labs has done a great job with doing things like captions and one handed modes on their Vacation Simulator game. There's a few other notable exceptions to the rule, the studios that have really gone out of their way to make things accessible.

But it's something that we're still trying to kind of understand and get out there. The fundamentals of what makes it accessible, and how both developers and designers can do that at kind of an individual level, but also trying to bring some of these platforms into the mix and getting things accessible on a platform level. Ideally, so that any developer can just plug into-- in the same way that you can on iPhone and Android now, just plug into these platform level APIs to help make things accessible, to make sure that the standard is accessibility. Which is going to be very important as XR moves into to less just gaming and applying fun Snapchat filters to your face, and more used in real educational and industrial places.

I can also speak specifically to what we're doing here in the application accessibility group. We have essentially two different functions. The first is application analysis. So this is trying to look at some of the more heavily used applications out there, understand which are really big winners and which are really big losers when it comes to accessibility. And in the case of the-- like in those studios that have gone out of their way to understand their process, and reach out to them and say, "Why is it that you have found both the time and resources to make your game accessible? And how have you actually done it? How can we help others do it?" And then for the less successful ones, reach out to occasionally the developers, but more often to the users and say, "Hey, what is it about this that makes it so difficult or impossible to use for you?" Understand those commonalities and draw from them a working theory on what are the most effective ways that people can make their apps accessible.

We just released a big survey on that, trying to understand from a variety of different people -- both in personal use and in professional use in industry -- what are those common applications, and where are the victories and the barriers in accessibility? And we're trying to just make sure that we don't end up with a small subset of apps that-- especially ones that are targeted specifically at people with disabilities that are, "Here are the accessible apps. If you are blind, here's the five apps you can use." No, we want *all* of the apps to be apps you can use. And so we try to basically set the standards to make sure that that can happen.

The other thing that we do in the app accessibility group is accessibility tools analysis. And so this is understanding now the tools that are aimed specifically at people with disabilities. There's some really amazing research out there in the academic community, especially around things like Microsoft SeeingVR: this whole suite of tools like magnifiers, contrast enhancers, all kinds of things. But that currently only exists in a research paper, and some one Github repo that has these potentially amazing tools, and yet no way to actually get them into the places where they can do good. So the other function of the app accessibility group is to look at those tools, reach out to the creators and understand the utility and the barrier to getting those tools publicly available and doing good out in the world.

Julie: I think the key here is to-- is one of the things that you also said to me in advance was working with the people with disabilities, as opposed to just making things for people with challenges, and actually having them involved in discovering, because this is all new to everybody. And I was in the conference that you were a part of. And just listening to the troubleshooting that takes so long for people to gain access into a platform, I think there was about 30 minutes before it kind of kicked off in that session in Hubs that you had with Thomas Logan, and being with the users and having them provide feedback into what they want to experience is really key. What are the prompts that are needed? What are the things that need to be in the experience and have everyone be a part of that, and not just have certain applications made for certain people? It should be everything should be accessible.

Devin: Julie, if you don't mind me jumping in: July 20th and 21st, we have our XR Access Virtual Symposium. It's free for anybody to attend. But one of the components we decided to include was to create a Hub space, where people that have access to headsets and XR technology can join, so that we can all come together in that environment to talk about the accessibility issues we're experiencing in that situation. So I think we'll come out of that with a lot of great information there and allow people to collaborate well in the space. And Dylan, I don't know if you wanted to say anything more about that.

Dylan: Yeah. No, I think you're absolutely right, in that it it is all about designing with people, not designing at people. I think that's why it's very important to us to have as much representation as we can from the disability community in XR Access. I think it's something that we tried to take great pains to make sure that all of our meetings are accessible and that the symposium will be accessible, which is why-- there are potentially the tools to hold entire conferences in VR. And we've seen that with things like IEEE, VR 2020. There's been Educators In VR, kind of international symposium. But unfortunately, when you do the whole thing in VR, then VR is still-- even some of the best platforms are still far from being fully accessible. And so you leave a lot of people out.

And so what we've chosen to do for the symposium is keep the vast majority of it in this kind of Zoom accessible template. We'll have sign language interpreters, we'll have full captioning, we'll have things that have been kind of tried and true for accessibility purposes. But we also want to make sure that we get the feedback from people with disabilities directly to the platform creators, which is why we're doing a breakout session in Mozilla Hubs, because Mozilla has been really receptive to accessibility feedback. Unfortunately, at the moment their-- a lot of their resources are going into trying to get the platform as a whole ready to go. But they've been taking kind of close notes on-- people right now, for example, with screen readers are having a really hard time.

And we're hoping that by having this kind of experimental session where we can bring folks with disabilities into this VR meeting space -- that they might typically have trouble accessing -- and try to troubleshoot some of those and try to just make sure that we're getting that feedback directly from people with disabilities, and getting that into the hands and the ears of the people at the platform level who have the ability to make changes to that platform, to make it more accessible. That's the kind of feedback loop that we're really trying to establish here. And I think that needs to happen for Microsoft and for Facebook and for all of these platforms, all these companies that are running platforms in XR.

Julie: So I want to kind of break this up here, because there's the user experience once you're actually inside these experiences, being able to be spatially present and learning among whatever environment is around you. But then there's also the accessibility of actually logging in and getting into the space, of being able to enter your log-in and password. And this leads to that conversation of corporate responsibility now. And maybe if I can ask Devin, talking about so many barriers in policy right now with governments and things like that, but yet they're expected to adopt the inclusivity policy and guidelines more quickly than anybody else. And I think once they do, then everybody will follow. So maybe can you give a little bit of insight on what that barrier looks like right now, from a government and policy level? Because with the work that you're doing, you're both doing with XR Access is surely paving the way for people to understand and put those implementations into place. But where is the government right now, in the policy level of considering these platforms to become more mainstream in enterprise and government levels, so that the adoption can pick up?

Devin: Sure. So what I can say is, is there aren't really any set in stone guidelines, policies or practices. Which is why we have this, what we call the GPP -- Guidelines, Policies and Practices -- working group, that exist specifically for emerging technologies. And what I can say and what I can speak to is my work through the Partnership on Employment and Accessible Technology, which is actually funded by the Department of Labour. What they are trying to do by getting involved in XR Access, having me involved in XR Access is to really be at the table, be collaborating, figure out what's needed, figure out what needs to happen in order to put guidelines, policies and practices into place, to make sure all of these technologies are accessible for people with disabilities. Specifically my work with PEAT, we're focused on making sure XR is accessible in the employment context. So when we think about the next 20, 30 years, all of this technology is very likely to be in the workplace. And if we don't make these technologies accessible, that prevents people with disabilities from engaging in the day to day, going to work, having meetings, all of that stuff. So what I can say is that right now we're in the listening, learning, and collaborating phase of the work.

Julie: And I think that leads to a great segue to XR collaboration, which XR Access is a sponsor and contributor to some of the content in our resource guide. But I also see it as a place where, once you're finished with that symposium session in July, we take some of the action items from your symposium and then present them to the over 70 different platforms that we have hosted in our directory, as questions on their positioning and their development roadmap to implement those into their current code to be able to provide the access to everybody. So I'm grateful to have you guys on board, to be able to discover this for us, so that we can then introduce it into the mainstream of platform access, providing everyone with that ability. So it'll be really interesting to see what comes out of your symposium. Did you want to speak a little bit more and present that, Dylan? A little bit more on the symposium, when it is, and how people can register for it?

Dylan: Well, actually, here. Let me hand that over to Devin, I think is going to have the more logistical details on it.

Devin: So, yeah, we have -- as I mentioned -- July 20th and 21st, we're hosting the XR Access Symposium. It has previously been in-person, but this year it will be a free virtual event. And it's bringing together not just the people that have been participating in XR Access, which right now is about 100. We have 140 participants. We're bringing together just people across the board, cross-sector group of individuals. And it's to discuss the progress we've made within XR Access over the past year, but also highlight the latest advancements in XR and accessibility in academic research, and lay out concrete steps -- which is, to your point, Julie, which we can discuss -- lay out concrete steps we can all take toward building this more accessible future, figure out what each group coming to the table can take away and start acting on, after they leave the event. And we have Matt May, actually -- from Adobe, he's the accessibility lead there -- is one of our keynotes. We also have one of our working group leads, who's Joel Ward, he's at Booz Allen. And we have somebody from LinkedIn that'll be speaking as well. So it's it's a broad mix of people, and we're looking forward to having these different diverse perspectives at the table.

Julie: And I think just to add that for our listeners, such an important moment of corporate responsibility to become involved in inclusivity right now. And you hosting this symposium is certainly one that I hope -- just even out of this podcast alone -- will gain the recognition of corporate responsibility, and registering and sending their employees to learn more about how to introduce this technology and to processes and procedures, et cetera. So thank you, Devin. Dylan, the symposium itself. You know, I say that platforms and developers should also be attending this symposium to learn how to implement it. And is there any other information that you'd like to share on the actions that XR Access is doing for the developer community to become engaged, or just a little bit of promotion for it to tell them why they need to be a part of it?

Dylan: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that the symposium is going to be a fantastic opportunity for a lot of different people to come together, and not only get kind of a crash course in accessibility in the context of XR, but to meet all of the people that will need to meet one another in order to make these things happen. Because I think we all have kind of an individual responsibility to make sure that accessibility is implemented here. We also all need to work together on this. I know one of the things that we're doing is, for example, having breakout sessions. We are having sessions on for the application accessibility group, specifically low vision access. We have not only the kind of how and why of low vision access, but but also the accessibility object model, which is a great way for developers to be able to to implement the accessibility tools that need to happen. We're going to have folks from Microsoft SeeingVR, folks from the Royal National Institute of Blind People coming together. And just potentially introducing a lot of important folks to one another, that really should be in the same room together in order to solve the multitude of challenges that we'll need to do, in order to make sure these technologies available to everybody.

Devin: And just to add quickly to that, because I have to give him a nod. Another one of our keynote speakers, which your audience might find interesting, is Dr. Tom Furness, who is called the grandfather of virtual reality.

Julie: That's really, really great. Well, it sounds like we need to do a part two of this particular podcast, because I think it would be great to meet up again. And let's discuss those action items that were brought forward from your symposium, so that we can then share with everyone what their actions are. Let's take a look at it from the government perspective, as well as the developer perspective. And employment perspective, of being able to introduce how the technologies will provide that all accessibility for the employees and people of interest for any organization. So I would love to invite you back if you both accept that invitation, because they think that we've got a lot of work to do.

Devin: Anytime, Julie.

Dylan: Yeah, absolutely.

Julie: Yeah. So thank you both so much for joining me. Dylan, why don't you tell everybody how they can find you if they're interested in learning more about XR Access, and where they can connect with you?

Dylan: Sure. Well, for XR Access, first of all, you can find us at xraccess.org. We've got a lot of information not only on the working groups, but as well as on a multitude of resources that we've gathered. So definitely check that out. You can find me on Twitter as @UsabilityFox, or on my portfolio at drfoxdesign.com.

Julie: That's great. And Devin, where can we find you?

Dylan: So you can find our work at peatworks.org, so that's for the Partnership on Employment and Accessible Technology.

Julie: Well, that's great. Thank you so much, both of you, for joining me today. I really appreciate your time and commitment to making it an accessible world. Thank you so much, everybody, for listening. This is the XR for Learning podcast. And my name is Julie Smithson. Thanks, everyone, for listening.

Learning complex STEM concepts like physics or chemistry off a chalkboard is no easy task, because it removes a key factor from the equation - presence. Inspirit VR’s Aditya Vishwanath explains how giving that presence back ignites a learner’s innate curiosity.

Julie: Hello, my name is Julie Smithson, and I am your XR for Learning podcast host. I look forward to bringing you insight into changing the way that we learn and teach using XR technologies to explore, enhance, and individualize learning for everyone. Today my guest is Aditya Vishwanath. Aditya is a PhD candidate in Learning Sciences and Technology Design and a Knight-Hennessy Scholar at Stanford University. He's the co-founder of Inspirit, a company that develops virtual reality learning content. And his research focuses on developing technologies that support universal access to immersive learning content. Welcome to the show.

Aditya: Thank you. I'm so excited to be doing this.

Julie: That's great. And we've had a couple of conversations about education, and the courses that need to be implemented into classes, and that sort of thing. Why don't you tell me a little bit about Inspirit, where you started from, and where you guys are today?

Aditya: Inspirit was actually a research project that I started out with a friend and now co-founder of mine -- her name is Amrita -- and the two of us were both researchers in a lab at Georgia Tech in Atlanta. And we really stumbled upon this opportunity to explore and study what it would take to bring immersive VR to a few public schools in the city of Atlanta. And it was really just a phenomenal experience for the two of us, because what we thought was going to be just a few weeks of a project -- where we were playing the roles of research assistance -- exploded into what is Inspirit today. Our mission -- and my research too, at Stanford -- is really trying to be that bridge between the best of academic research and what we know about virtual reality and education, and then cutting edge technologies that can be used in industry and go straight into classrooms and learning environments. Inspirit was founded with that goal of accelerating the pace at which we could bring research findings of VR and education into schools, into universities, into learning environments around the world.

Julie: It's definitely a big concern now, the speed of education. And not just how much we're learning, because I feel like every day it's like a firehose of things to learn. Now it's a matter of how did the education systems keep up with the demands of change that's taking place, both through innovation and changes within a company? It sounds like that's something that Inspirit is trying to address?

Aditya: STEM education is what we do at Inspirit. And fundamentally, somewhere down the road, STEM education stopped becoming a hands-on interactive learning experience. And this was largely due to the needs of supporting larger and larger classrooms, more and more students, both in an online and an offline learning environment. And suddenly that personalization, that hands-on, that immersive interactive aspect to science and STEM education was completely lost. But a lot of the science learning today happens in a very passive way, with a video lecture or somebody giving you a passive lecture with a set of PowerPoint slides. And very rarely, are you interacting or actively solving a problem outside of a science lab. So our goal with Inspirit really was to bring back that hands-on piece and that interactive piece in a self-based, in a comfortable, and in an immersive environment using the power of virtual reality, both offline in schools and universities, and also online, if you're learning anything from anywhere in the world.

Julie: I'm looking at the curriculum that you offer, and very science focused. And I've done my own personal research over the last little bit, just on the critical thinking skills that science offers. And I think this is one of those hidden gems that is a part of science that we never really tackled before, trying to analyze all of this through technology. But can you speak a little bit more to that, about the critical thinking skills and the skill bases that are taught within these courses that revolve around science? But there's a deeper meaning in there for future skillsets.

Aditya: So, I mean, we have a lot of academic evidence that shows that when done right, immersive virtual reality can hugely and greatly promote deeper, critical thinking and problem solving skills and learners. And what we mean by that is, critical thinking -- the way I like to think about this -- is really just the ability for a student or a learner to be asking people questions. They are no longer asking surface level, high level, introductory, basic questions, but just by virtue of being immersed in this space -- that is pedagogically thought out and that is designed in a very thoughtful way -- can hugely change the way in which they ask questions. Now they're engaging multiple bodies of knowledge, they're actively pushing back at the information that they're receiving, and they're actively analyzing and engaging with it in a more immersive manner. So we notice very often in our pilot projects that the students tend to move their questions from "what" to "why" and "how". "*How* does the mitochondria generate the energy that is required to power the cell? *Why* is the DNA helix shaped the way it is? *Why* does something happen in this way?" And it's no longer "what", "What is a mitochondria?" But it's "Why is it the way it is?" And it's really fascinating that just simply immersing yourself for a very short amount of time -- our simulations on the Inspirit platform are also designed to be extremely short experiences -- just with 46 minutes of VR can dramatically transform the way in which students engage with the material.

Julie: I've had so many different conversations -- even in over the last week -- about curiosity, and how the next generation is not curious right now. Even my own kids, I'm having a little bit of a hard time trying to inspire their curiosity.

Aditya: Right.

Julie: You're telling me that within 46 minutes already, students are changing that question of "What is this?" to "Why is this?" or "How is this the way it is?" That's huge. Why do you think that? [chuckles] I'm gonna ask *you* a "why" question.

Aditya: [chuckles] Yeah, so that's a great question. And that's really what I am researching right now at Stanford, and what we're trying to answer with Inspirit. The way I like to think about it is, the most powerful thing that virtual reality is able to afford is this phenomenon of presence. This is a term that was borrowed from the social psychology space. I mean, presence is really just that ability for a tool or technology to make you believe that you are somewhere else. The fact that you can embody the shoes of another being, another space, another character, another experience is something that was just truly never possible before with any other technology. And we have evidence that when you experience something very visceral or something very powerful in a different space that you feel present in, so this could be something like the Great Wall of China -- what a lot of these field trips in VR tend to do -- or taking you inside the human body into a microscopic cell, or transporting you to the surface of the moon. And we have all of these modules on our Inspirit platform. We're able to demonstrate that when you experience the topic or the process of learning in these new spaces, when you are situated and you feel present in these spaces, the conscious part of your brain knows that this is not real, I mean, it's an animated world, really. And so the front part of your brain -- the cortex -- knows that this is not a real experience, but the real part of your brain, the part that's usually designed for your fight or flight response, the part that is your survival instinct is essentially subconsciously fooling your body into believing that you are learning in this new environment, in a very hands-on engaging way. And this tends to activate more receptors in your brain, as well as more physiological indicators for being in a different place. So, for example, a very popular VR experience -- that you may have also experienced -- that we do a lot in our VR lab at Stanford is the "walk the plank" VR simulation, where you have a user walk a plank on top of a 50 story building. And they know it's an animated world, but everyone's going to start sweating, your palms are going to get sweaty at the very least, and that's what presence is. You believe consciously that this is not ideal world, but subconsciously, unconsciously, your brain fools your body into believing you are somewhere else. And this leads to deeper retention in the long term, the deeper sense of behavior change in many cases that we're also able to measure persists after the experience is over.

Julie: So interesting. The formula of being immersed allows you to become more curious about your environment, because you need to have more answers, I guess, in front of you. It's kind of that unfolding answer there. But I think it's so critical right now to where we are in education. And the fact that students don't have that same curiosity of why things happen or how did things happen. Google provides most answers to kids, and the calculator provides the answers to mathematical equations. The approach that you've taken, obviously, with sciences, which-- sciences are so important, so underrated and everybody knows that. And I think it's fantastic that you've done that. Do you have a more favorite course than another, yourself? Like, are you more interested in physics, or the biology side, or chemistry, yourself?

Aditya: Personally, I have always grown up being super fascinated by physics, and I think our physics simulations on the Inspirit platform are really super interesting. And there's another point that I also want to touch on that you just mentioned, about the curiosity piece that seems to be largely missing in our schools today. And you're absolutely right. I mean, there is-- I read the statistic just a few months ago, and it just really blew my mind. More than 50 percent -- that's half the number of students -- who start a STEM course -- whether at the college level or at the school level, whether online or offline -- do not complete the course. There are very high attrition rates, very high dropout rates, especially at the community college level, at later stages of high school. And these dropout rates severely affect underserved and marginalized communities much more than others. And a huge reason for why this happens is because of that lack of solidifying the fundamental topics. It's because of the lack of connecting these seemingly distant topics to reality, to your everyday life. It's building that critical thinking, that confidence, that self-efficacy,y and that belief that "I can do this and I want to know more about this." And we have so much evidence about how VR can promote this, with just very short 10 minute long simulations. And that's really the biggest thing that we're trying to address with our platform. Coming back to the physics topic, we have one simulation in our platform, which is this physics playground like experience, where you're dropped into this world, this park where you have the ability to manipulate and move around various objects and learn virtually all of Newton's laws of motion by throwing a ball, by throwing something down a ramp, by rolling objects on the floor. And then we give the user, the student, the control to manipulate and change parameters in this world so they can do things that would not be possible in the real world, like change friction of a surface, change the mass or the weight of a ball, and then throw it and see the free body diagram of that ball as it flies through the air. And then we also let them change things like gravity. So now you can experience throwing the same ball on the surface of the moon, and understand that physical intuition for the laws and the equations of motion, before you get back into your class and start solving the math equations. So we have evidence that shows that when you just spent 10 minutes building that intuition for "What happens, does the ball go higher or lower? Does something move faster or slower when I change X, or when I change Y?" Just building that for 10 minutes in the virtual world, followed by deep assessments and an active math equation that you would anyways be doing in the classroom. That combination is what needs to the self-efficacy of this critical thinking, this confidence amends deeper, deeper interest and engagement with science.

Julie: I just want to go back to what you're saying. So throwing this ball in just a-- in a virtual environment under Earth's circumstances, shall we call it. Regular circumstances. And then being able to take that same person and immerse them into being on the moon and trying to throw a ball there. That is something that's never been able to be done before. We've never been able to do that. I didn't get to do that in high school. So I can only imagine the potential of curiosity and query of "why" and "how does this work," and "let's try this again," and adjusting levels, and adjusting positions and things like that. And all of a sudden the whole experience becomes a laboratory experience of trying different things and teaches us to be curious, to critically think about the ramifications of one thing happening over the other. And again, another skillset that I don't believe is taught well enough in the schools these days.

Aditya: Right.

Julie: So your program, Inspirit, who are you directly working with right now? Like I know you mentioned, you're from Stanford University. Are there any schools that are implementing your programs into their schooling at this time?

Aditya: Yes. So we work across the United States and also internationally with private schools, charter schools, public schools, and also low-income public title 1 schools around the country. And our goal really is to work very closely with the teacher and with the classroom to understand how we can meaningfully integrate this technology in their environment. Virtual reality is really a buzzword that is being thrown around everywhere today, to explain anything and everything from something that's a snazzy, glamorous looking headset. Many people are trying to sell VR for its novelty or they're trying to sell VR as the silver bullet that will solve all education problems. But really, as a company, our work in VR is just half the battle. The other half of the entire picture is really understanding curriculum, understanding learning outcomes, understanding the background of the students and the teachers and the school. The context is so relevant and so important to meaningfully bring this into a school or a university. So we work both at the K-12 and the higher ed and early undergraduate education levels. And we partner directly with schools and institutions and teachers and classrooms. And we also go through other distribution partners, like a publishing company or another ed-tech distributor, so that we can then, through them, access a larger audience of users. But however we get to the classroom, it's very important for us to be aligned with standards, with curriculum. So we build in assessments into our modules and our simulations, and our assessments and our testing is designed to be customizable. So a teacher can also edit it or change it to to customize a lab -- whether it's a physics chemistry or biology lab -- to her syllabus or her curriculum or her everyday lesson plan. We also build activities and other worksheets to be done outside of VR, that a teacher can use to better integrate VR into the classroom, because VR is not the only thing someone's doing in the school or at home. They are doing a bunch of different things and it's very important to understand context and how VR fits there. And then the last thing we do on the hardware side is really trying to be as agnostic to hardware as possible, so we can be compatible both on high-end VR headsets, but we have also built out a non-immersive 2D platform that works at a PC, a Mac or a Windows machine, so that many students can directly get started with working in virtual labs today at home, as well as in the school. And really being close to the teacher and responding to the needs is so important. I mean, to give you a very quick example, because we did so many pilot studies over the last six months, we decided to include a social VR, collaborative VR experience as part of our platform. This was never on the cards for us, and we would have totally missed out on the signal. But we were able to recognize this as a very important feature only because we spent so much time in the schools and the classrooms. And so our platform actually also comes in with a social component, where students can meet each other in a lab and together solve these virtual activities in the virtual space, even if there were many, many miles away from each other.

Julie: That's so important, is to build that collaboration piece.

Aditya: Mm-mm.

Julie: I'm a big advocator of collaboration, and started XRcollaboration.com with our partners. And I think this is one thing that's so relevant to having a good education about how things are going to work in the future. And nobody can do anything alone. So having that collaboration piece, where the students are able to go and discuss problems together and figure out how to solve them, it's a key component to platforms these days, to be able to have that meetup and have that communication piece, so it's not just one sided.

Aditya: Absolutely.

Julie: Then the teachers can also observe the feedback of the social interactivity, and who's contributing more than another, or what type of contributions are they contributing, and maybe the courses ain't aligned right or something like that. So there's a whole bunch of different purposes for that observation.

Aditya: Absolutely.

Julie: That's great. I love that you're supporting teachers. I think some of the key components that you just spoke about, too. Right now teachers are struggling more than ever to try and figure out how to teach their course with relevancy and also introduce technology, not on a full time basis, but as an aid to teach a message or a lesson. And sounds like you have done a really good job of trying to implement this and become that support for the education system that's taking on your program into their classes. So congratulations on that.

Aditya: Oh, thank you. We're only getting started, and I'm super excited for what lies ahead.

Julie: Do you have a roadmap of other courses that you're going to integrate, or are you going to stick with the science focus and then just broaden out into biology and physics and chemistry?

Aditya: Actually, our platform goes live by the end of July. And by by going live, I mean, we're building an entire teacher dashboard, a student dashboard, the entire classroom management tools, along with these labs and these simulations. Right now, we're launching with almost every introductory topic in physics, chemistry and biology. But we want to be a STEM education platform. And so we're very keen on jumping into math and anatomy and other lab-based, as well as other simulation based experiences across all of STEM education.

Julie: So if I was a teacher or somebody from the education system, what kind of piece of advice would you give any of our listeners right now, with regards to learning and teaching using XR technologies?

Aditya: Oh, that's a tough one. I think the biggest piece of advice I will give teachers is to definitely not to be afraid to give it a shot, to try it out for once. It is a challenging technology. It is a new technology. It is a very novel technology. And I think teachers already know these things. It's really the people like me, the engineers, the developers of these tools that need to know these better. But integrating these technologies into your lesson plan, into your everyday curriculum and aligning these with existing assessments, with existing testing is what is going to sustain long-term use. Adopting VR or XR just for the novelty or for the wow factor that it brings to the table will add value in the short term, but in the long term it's going to only be another device that collects dust on the shelf. So it's incredibly important from the get-go that you think about even the practicalities of things like having a classroom management tool, aligning this with curriculum and with standards. Which I think teachers already tried to advocate for, and we do our best to support them right from the very beginning.

Julie: Can you tell everybody where to find yourself, and how they can get a hold of you and where they can find it Inspirit VR?

Aditya: So our website is inspiritvr.com. And you can always get in touch with me at [email protected]. I'm also available on Twitter, and social media is also another great way to get in touch with me. But I'm always happy to talk to people who are interested in working with us and learning more about virtual reality and education.

Julie: Well, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you again, Aditya.

Aditya: Thank you so much. My pleasure.

Julie: And thanks to all of our listeners. You can check out this podcast at xrforlearning.io. My name is Julie Smithson. Thanks, everyone. Take care.

XR tech often has a visual focus, but we have to be careful in that line of thinking; those who are visually impaired might be left out of the conversation otherwise. Yvonne Felix, an inclusion expert at CNIB, knows from experience that the visually impaired - or anyone with any impairment - don’t have to be excluded from XR; we just have to be forward-thinking and make accessibility considerations to include users from all walks of life.

Julie: Hello, my name is Julie Smithson, and I am your XR for Learning podcast host. Today, I look forward to bringing you insight into changing the way we learn and teach using XR technologies to explore, enhance, and individualize learning for everyone. Today, my guest is Yvonne Felix, who works with the Canadian National Institute for the Blind in the Accessibility and Inclusion Division as an experienced community specialist, with a demonstrated history of working in the medical industry. Thank you so much for joining me today, Yvonne. I'm really, really excited to have you here.

Yvonne: Thank you, Julie. I'm very excited, too.

Julie: Let's start with your role at CNIB. We've had several conversations over the last year just on-- a little bit about immersive technologies and how it affects people with disabilities, such as being visually impaired. And maybe we can start off with what your role is and, of course, how you got involved.

Yvonne: Sure. First, I'll start by just sort of explaining why I wanted to work at CNIB and actually how I became interested and involved in assistive technology, and also life changing technology in general. So I was born with an eye disease called Stargardt's, and it primarily affects your central vision loss. So in the center of your eye, in your macula, you have your rods and cones. And basically, it sends a message to say that I don't need those photoreceptors for my central vision to work. So it's considered sort of an autoimmune disease. But over the years -- as I did lose my central vision fully by the time I was seven -- I learned that I would just have the type of life that required me to use technology. And so it was just really embedded in my day-to-day. I thought everybody's life was like that. I think I was in the timeframe of the world where technology was becoming very advanced very quickly. I have partial sight, compared to total blindness, and the differences I identify with using my sight. So there are many people that still do have some sight left, but they don't use it. So it's the same partial sight just identified, that I do use the sight that I do have left, in comparison to using other devices that focus on sight substitution as opposed to sight enhancement. So that's how I got involved in CNIB. My role really is about inclusion and accessibility. And accessibility is a component of inclusion. You can take accessibility and it's just one building block to other components that make inclusion a universally accessible culture, as opposed to just focusing on accessibility as one thing that you need to embed. It's just one small part of looking at that bigger picture of universal design.

Julie: And this is where we start to talk about immersive technologies becoming-- providing superpowers to those like yourself, who are visually impaired. And being able to substitute and to assist you in day-to-day situations and present this technology in a way to help you get through your days in places where it can help you being immersed into something. So it's really interesting how all of this digital technology in the last couple of years kind of compounded just recently with COVID-19. And maybe you can speak to how the organization is adjusting to becoming remote, and what that baseline was like for the CNIB to be able to convert, and where you play a role in that.

Yvonne: Sure. Our organization jumped very quickly from one week being a completely in-person service with a small focus on virtual programming. So the organization provides programming and services to people with sight loss in Canada. And again, sight loss focuses on that spectrum of partial sight to blindness. And what happened within that first week of COVID, I'm actually very proud to say that we were able to go completely virtual with 127 different programs. And I think part of that success is because-- I say this through celebration, because I think it's very important to always look at that silver lining. But to remember that sight loss is something that is a part of a person, no matter where the inception is in their life, whether it's from birth or later on. But it becomes very fundamental to how you function. And sort of what's happening in the world today is that people are experiencing what it is like to have a disability, social isolation, not having access to visual communication, not having access to in-person bodies to be able to do your daily tasks, or be able to communicate. And that's something that our participants -- so we call them participants, not clients -- but our participants, our community, and our staff deal with on a daily basis. So we have the technology, we have basically our community, our staff, people with sight loss, people who work with people with sight loss. We have that superpower already, to utilize and engage ourselves in the technology that we had and the platforms that we had. So for my role, it became more about that creativity and figuring out how do I build with something that's not tangible? What are all the different features? And what can we do to make the experience more engaging than it would be, rather than just having a regular meeting? How do we encompass inclusion? So how do we make sure everybody is able to participate? And there's these really amazing things that are happening. One of the meetings that I had last week, I was talking with someone who worked in another part of the country -- because we have 55 locations across the country -- and that individual is deaf-blind. And we had a conversation about the fact that we would never talk this much prior to COVID happening. I'd like to acknowledge that it is a pandemic. There are things going on that are very frustrating, and very scary, and we're all staying safe. But what's really beautiful about technology and the way the organization is functioning is that our employer-- we are able to stay safe, but we're also able to do our jobs and still provide service to the community at large.

Julie: That's an incredible story. Can I ask what-- did you use a specific platform to communicate with those individuals?

Yvonne: We actually use several. So the accessible platforms that we're using, that we've been able to be able to give more than one way of communication or language is Zoom. We provide our meetings and our sessions to our participants -- internally and externally -- through Zoom. And the reason why we're able to communicate is because there is a video option, so that an intervener or an interpreter can sign while the individual is watching and we take pauses. So there's a whole sort of format that we use to meetings and different type of activities that we use. And then on top of that, there's-- we also have a closed captions. As an example, last week we were doing a session on-- we have "Lunch and Learn." So basically everyone across the country gets together during lunch, and we have a really engaging discussions or we have activities. And I was able to source a YouTube video that already had closed captioning. We had an intervener. We also have chat. So we kind of use all the different ways that Zoom or Teams-- Microsoft Teams, that's a very similar platform. So we use mainly those two types of platforms to communicate, because of the accessibility features.

Julie: Are you working with businesses right now, to help move their employees? Or is that something that CNIB does, support businesses and organizations, especially now because everybody had to work remotely? Is this something that you're helping or your team -- the CNIB team -- is helping businesses adjust?

Yvonne: Yeah, absolutely. Our organization, we focus on advocacy. We never turn anyone away, whether it's for profit, not for profit, whatever your need is. Some of the outreach has been because we do work with technology quite often and our organization, we're acknowledged as an organization that supports users from all different levels, whether it's entry level or a business where they have someone with sight loss. We have a program called Come to Work. And so that program advocates for not necessarily the person with sight loss, but helps teach a business, what are the things you need to know from an inclusive standpoint, to have someone with sight loss be able to apply and become a member of your team? So we've had outreach, I would say from the moment this started globally, just being able to have that conversation with businesses on how to be inclusive. And it's been really incredible, because a lot of the conversation and a lot of this -- not to be coy -- but this sort of lifting of the blindfold. Or having this a-ha moment of, "Oh, we're all in this situation now." And being able to provide that support to people and have that extra layer of compassion, empathy, and understanding has been a really incredible opportunity to be able to advocate on behalf of the community, but also to be able to give businesses the tools that they need to be inclusive.

Julie: It's so nice to hear during such a troubled time right now. For many organizations and businesses, to be able to move remotely and to make sure that they stay inclusive. The other day we were in a call and we started to talk a little bit and I'd like to explore this a little bit more. As we move towards further immersive technologies like VR and XR platforms where we can still come and meet. But I think moving towards a more sophisticated emoji system or avatar system, where we can start to identify right off the bat who those are in a space that would be visually impaired -- or hearing impaired, whatever their challenge is -- to connect, and where the rest of us who are able to hear and see, how do we identify these users now in these spaces? And what is that gracious introduction and what does that look like? That is not offensive, but is almost necessary so that we can understand the types of communication that we can build on.

Yvonne: Mm-hmm.

Julie: Is that something that you've talked about, moving into more of an avatar description in these experiences?

Yvonne: It's really interesting, because it really is-- I like to call it the Wild West. We are really in the middle of a disruption of how we perceive information and how we process information. And we're able to get this deeper understanding of who we are as humans, but also how are we using technology to represent ourselves? And for the most part, it's been through sound or written language. When you take a few seconds to read Twitter, that's words. So we're we're mainly using words. But when we start to think about who we are in a virtual space, we're talking about touch. And even right now thinking about touche is something that is almost taboo. We're trying to avoid touch. But for the sight loss community or the deaf-blind community, you can't take that away. So what does that mean in a virtual space for the sight loss community? Something that I find really interesting right now is playing with sound and understanding proximity, and identifying oneself through sound and a tone of voice. It means everything sometimes being able to decipher is that individual in this meeting? Do they have something else going on? Or is that their voice that says, "I have kids in the background and I'm trying to get everybody quiet"? Or is there something else going on? Just having that safe space of either having a visual to represent oneself or a movement or a sound and being able to use sound for proximity, being able to use sound to identify when someone comes in and out of a room. Those things exist outside of using VR. But how do you incorporate basically how information comes into your ears and you feel it through your whole body? And what does that mean? So being able to translate that type of information of the day-to-day activities and how one functions through a space, being able to understand projection, being able to understand even anticipation. So a lot of times when someone is going to navigate-- I'll just call it the tangible world. And you're using orientation and mobility. There are all these key signifiers that tell you how to use a cane and how to landmark and how to memorize where you're going. So how do you take that information and move it into a digital space? And this is sort of my personal experience in just trying to test different platforms to see if this is doable for virtual conferencing. I personally find that you actually are able to navigate a little quicker if you're using the tools that are there in terms of sound proximity, and I've seen a couple like that. When we're talking about, again, language and identifiers-- you brought up emojis, and emojis are something that when I use my phone and I'm using screen readers or I'm using voiceover, let's say smiling face will say "smiling face". It will read that to me, so I don't necessarily see it. And it'll give me the options for different colors of that smiling face. When we're looking at things like a thumbs up or someone walking, there are no emojis that identify what my life is like to talk to somebody else who also has sight loss. I have siblings who have sight loss. There isn't that visual language that's in this emoji that represents things that I want to talk about or converse on a daily basis. And this is this is nothing new. It's just new to the fact that there is now-- technology is advancing and we're using more visuals. What I described when I talked about the emoji face, that's called "alternative text" and that alternative text is great, but I don't see myself in alternative text. Like, I don't feel necessarily included, because there's sometimes parameters around how do you actually identify a visual with alternative textures, all these different standards and guidelines. So it would be great if I could just send an emoji of a cane or-- I'm just trying to think about things that I have around my house that probably give other people-- magnifying glasses. There is no emoji for a screen reader. Like, how do you even have a picture of a screen reader? It's software. To me, it's a language. It's a type of language, it's not a blindness language, but it's a language that community would use.

Julie: Yeah. It's almost like an accessibility language needs to be developed out of this new immersion and the space of collaboration, because we need to have that transparency of who you are when you're communicating with somebody. And this type of thing would certainly open that up to helping people identify who Yvonne Felix is, compared to somebody else. It's a really interesting time, as you said, it's the Wild West of being able to figure out what these solutions are. But I have no doubt there's probably a startup sitting here listening, thinking that they were already starting to work on this, and maybe they can come up and develop something for you.

Yvonne: Yeah.

Julie: [laughs]

Yvonne: I'm always on the hunt. I'm always looking for technologies that are like, "Oh, I bet that company isn't even thinking about the sight loss community." And like, that's-- it's always exciting to be able to reach out to an organization or a company and say, "Hey, did you ever think of this?" Like, "This would be useful if you just tweaked it here or there." But yeah, it's no doubt there are lots of very intelligent, ambitious people out there that want to make the world an equitable place.

Julie: Absolutely. I wanted to just jump back to something that you were talking about with spatial sound, and how a friend of ours that I introduced you to -- Thomas Logan -- he is hosting these accessibility community groups inside of Hubs, to help people with accessibility challenges to understand the spatial world. And it comes back to learning about this three dimensional space that is being presented to us. You know, right now it's mostly on 2D screens and this is where XR comes in. And you're going to be able to put your headset on and then start to hear spatially -- for yourself, anyways -- be in that room, in that community room with others, and understand the spatial sound. And this is where we have to start teaching and immersing ourselves in this three dimensional world, and where spatial computing comes in. And that's such an important component right now for us all to understand what those next steps are to become engaged and begin to collaborate. Right?

Yvonne: Mm-hmm.

Julie: The other thing I wanted to note in supporting the accessibility for every community and introducing inclusivity. We launched in the XR Collaboration website -- just recently -- an accessibility tab that you can adjust the vision on it. And I wanted to see if you had a chance to try it, Yvonne, and what your thoughts were on that.

Yvonne: I did have a chance to try it. I thought it was awesome. And one of the reasons why, other than the fact that you can access someone's website -- which is always wonderful -- the language that is used to identify what the need is or the adjustment that you're making -- and I apologize, I don't remember them off the top of my head, but -- it was very acute in identifying what is it that you want to do? So in most cases, when you go on a website, if there are options to be able to change the font color, or if you go into any accessibility feature -- and again, this is sort of-- I'll play into why this is also very useful -- is that the user themselves -- so someone who has an accessibility requirement -- usually they'll be features in the operating system that they will access. Now, some people don't actually know how to do that for the first time that you're either turning on the device, or if you are just learning how to use technology. So it's actually very useful to have something as a plugin or embedded in your site that they can access to do that on the site itself. Also accessibility features, you have to go into settings when you use the operating system and change the settings depending on the site itself that you're using. So if a site has a color scheme -- let's say, blue and white -- and that's not the color scheme that works for you, then you would have to go into your accessibility features and change that. So the fact that you have that option with the features that you've provided on the site, being able to do that in the moment and change things as you're going from screen to screen, it makes a huge difference, instead of having to always go in and change it from the... sorry.

Julie: The settings.

Yvonne: The settings! [chuckles] Yes.

Julie: So just to recap, XRcollaboration.com, recently we released an accessibility tool. If you go to the website and take a look at the top left corner, Yvonne's talking about how you can actually scroll down into increasing the text or putting it in grayscale, high contrast, and negative contrast with a light background, or with a readable font. You can do this live on a website, to be able to provide that immediate accessibility -- for those who are visually impaired -- to highlight and increase the font size. I think even my mom enjoyed just taking a look at it, just because she's almost 80 years old, so having an increased font size just for somebody who would like to have that font a bit bigger is even a great tool for anybody to have. You can take a look at it. As I said, it's a free API called Pogo and we embedded it into our website so easily. And I think this is one of those steps where we need to start providing these digital tools to the accessibility community, to invite them, to make sure they're included, to provide the tools that will break down those barriers to entry for communication.

Yvonne: You've brought up a very good point, though, that accessibility features are for everyone. And even in sight loss, low vision, there are roughly 400 million people expected within the next five to 10 years to actually have low vision. So that's not necessarily on the spectrum of blindness just because of acuity, but being able to access those types of-- the type of features where you're talking about contrast and inverting colors. That is a universal design, that is far more inclusive than saying that if you have sight loss, here are features that will work for you. Others say it's more productive to be prepared than it is to just rely on the technology or the accessibility features within whatever device someone is using.

Julie: So, Yvonne maybe just we'll wrap it up with telling everybody, how can they reach you? And I guess if they have any questions with regards to what you're working on.

Yvonne: Yes. So you can reach me in a few places. Yvonne Felix on LinkedIn, I will accept you, if you would like to connect with me. You can reach me at Twitter, @YvonneRFelix. And you can also reach me at CNIB at [email protected].

Julie: Why don't we have you close with a brief lesson for everybody about inclusivity, inspiring everybody to make sure they make the next steps to include everybody like you into their conversations?

Yvonne: Absolutely. One message that I'd love everybody to just take away is that you can work with the community and not just for a community. So embedding accessibility in your practices and just making it the way you do things means that everybody gets to participate. Whether it's technology that you're developing, having meetings, or just sitting around the dinner table with your family. Just do it with people, not for people.

Julie: And with that, that's a great way to wrap up this XR for Learning podcast. Thank you so much for being with me today, Yvonne, I hope everybody enjoyed this session on accessibility. And thanks again.

Yvonne: Thank you. It was wonderful.

Today’s guest, Broadstairs College Computing Programme Director Tim Jackson, saw COVID-19 coming, and expected it to flip the education system on its head. Luckily, it was the perfect opportunity to experiment transferring the classroom to a virtual environment.

Julie: Hello, my name is Julie Smithson, and I am your XR for Learning podcast host. I look forward to bringing you insight into changing the way that we learn and teach using XR technologies to explore, enhance, and individualize learning for everyone. Today, my guest is Tim Jackson. Tim has been teaching further and higher education at Broadstairs College, part of the EKC Group in Kent, UK, for over 18 years, teaching a broad range of topics, including network design and management, data security, project management, games design and development, and more. Recently, robotics and virtual reality, where he has built two specialist VR lab environments with the help of some of his students. His involvement with Educators In VR enabled him to be an active participant within the inaugural Educators In VR International Summit that took place in February 2020, as one of the track leads for diversity and accessibility. Since then -- and due to recent events -- Tim has now taken his teaching in VR further, by delivering his entire teaching timetable of 21 hours per week within the Altspace VR and ENGAGE virtual reality platforms. Now, Tim is regarded as one of the few educators who is regularly and consistently delivering quality technical and vocational teaching within an active VR environment. Thanks so much for joining me today, Tim.

Tim: Good morning, Julie. Really nice to be here. How are you?

Julie: I'm great, thanks.Why don't you start off by introducing yourself and just a little bit about what you're doing at Broadstairs College.

Tim: Sure. Okay. Well, I'm the program director for Higher Education Computing Courses at Broadstairs College, which is a fancy title. Basically, what it means is that I design and I run the programs. And these are specifically for learners who are learning at degree level. So year one and two of a degree, specializing in computing. I've been at the college for quite a while. I actually love what I do. It's a real passion of mine, teaching. And more recently, we've had a fairly new principal, he's been with us a couple of years now, called Kurt Salter, stunning guy. He really gets what we're trying to do and he's been so supportive. So these last couple of years, he's been able to allow me to develop some resources that really have enhanced the students' experience at the college. More recently, that's been things like robotics and virtual reality, which are elements that I've been able to bring into my higher education programs. And of course, the students didn't really need much convincing to get involved. So, yeah, it's been quite a ride these last couple of years. But more importantly, the last six months have been quite stunning, if you can call it that. And the last three months. Yes, very scary.

Julie: Yeah. I guess first, just making a statement about how amazing it is that your colleagues support you, that your superiors support you and see the potential of this technology in the education system.

Tim: Absolutely. And I think if you can go in and have a clear justification as to why you're doing what you're doing and most importantly, how the students are going to benefit from it, then I think any manager is going to listen to you. A dear friend of mine and colleague of Educators In VR, Daniel Dyboski-Bryant, once said to me, he said, "You know, the best way to convince a manager is, you can go in and tell them all day long how brilliant it's gonna be. Just go in and put a headset on them, and wow them," he said, because then they'll see what students will see, and then they'll realize how important the technology is. Great bit of advice. [laughs]

Julie: Yes, absolutely. And maybe we can take it back a couple months now, and tell me what was the status of your classroom with the students that you have today? What was it like three months ago, before we went into COVID lockdown? Tell me about what the classroom environment was like, and how you were teaching then.

Tim: Well, it was very different. Obviously, it was a physical environment. I could see the students in front of me. We were able to interact at a verbal level. I was using an interactive whiteboard to deliver sessions. I love drawing. I will draw all over an interactive whiteboard all day long. And now I've learnt how to do that in VR. So I'm very happy about that. And it was always in one place. You had a classroom. And I think that's the difference with VR. You have to set these environments up, and you take for granted the fact that you can just walk into a physical classroom and deliver something. And the students were very comfortable. They had their own seating positions, they always sat in the same place. We could see what was happening with Coronavirus. We were a little bit concerned about it. We kept being told everything's fine, don't worry. And it was very, very strange because we could see it coming, but we couldn't understand how it was going to affect us. So we carried on as if nothing had happened. And then one week it started becoming apparent that it was going to be a problem. And the week leading up to the lockdown was quite strange, because we knew we weren't going to be there the week after. And we knew that things were going to change rapidly. And during that week, the students and I sat and planned and think, how are we going to do this? How are we going to be able to carry on with the learning? Because nobody knew how long it was going to be. And at that point, we had started toying with the idea of virtual reality, because it was going to be an assessment later on in the year. So we started talking about it. We'd been into Altspace, we'd been into ENGAGE. We'd had a few sessions in there, just looking around. The students were very comfortable, they were happy with that. They said, "Hey, why don't we go for that?" And I said, yes, let's do it, because I know that we can. And in one weekend -- Julie -- one weekend I took every single session and turned it into a VR session. So that first thing on Monday morning, I had 50-odd students in the same place at the same time in virtual reality, introducing what we were about to do. And it was -- for me -- a very special and emotional moment.

Julie: Incredible. That's amazing that you transformed so quickly. And--

Tim: I didn't sleep. [laughs]

Julie: [laughs] No, I can imagine not. But see here that the students were part of that planning...

Tim: Oh, absolutely.

Julie: It is incredible to not only include them. Maybe-- can you tell us how old the students are? I know it's at higher education, but they're later teens.

Tim: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. They have to be over the age of 18 to be in higher education. And generally that-- the two groups I have are between the ages of around about 18, to probably mid to late 20s. Sometimes I have students who are a little bit older, more mature. But this year they're more sort of like 18 to 25, 26 maybe. But they're a great group of kids. And I love working with them. And just to pick up on a point you just set, Julie, I think for me, I think it's important to include the students in your planning. I think it's important to say to them "What you think is going to work for you best?" because then they start to own it, and they start to become part of it. And then they believe in it, and then you're more likely to get success from them. And I do that with them all the time. All the time. And I think it's so important. And they feel important because of it. They feel special because of it. And then they are tied into it. And they were with me from day one. Absolutely.

Julie: So tell us then. Okay, so now we're in lockdown and you've got-- you said almost 50 students. Is that correct?

Tim: On the very first session, what I did, I brought everybody together. I brought all the groups together that I have. And I wanted to have an introductory session. I wanted to say, look, this is not going to beat us. We are here together in VR. We are going to take your learning forward and we will stay here as long as we have to. Whether it's for the whole duration, whether it's for a few weeks, because nobody knew. Little did we know it's going to be for the rest of the academic year. I just wanted to have that starting point. On the weekends, not only was I transferring everything into VR, I wrote a little presentation for that Monday morning session. And I called it "Fighting COVID-19 My Way" and it was all about being in VR, and what the etiquette is, and what our plan is, and what the timetable was going to be, because I changed their timetable. You can't sit there in VR for like three hours straight like you can in a classroom. So I changed it into one hour chunks, with a 15 to 20 minute break in between. And they were so on board. Oh, my goodness. They just said, come on, let's do this.

Julie: Which platform did you use right away?

Tim: The very first one, I used ENGAGE, because I wanted to use a particular environment -- the lecture hall environment -- in ENGAGE, which for me was very important, because it was very similar to what we'd had in real life. And I wanted that to be the focal point, the transition between real life and virtual reality life. I wanted them to remember that moment, to say this is where we're meeting now. It looks familiar to you, because it looks real to you. But now we're going to move forward. So we have sessions in a coffee shop. We'll have a seminar session in a conference room. We just mix up the different sessions and just have fun, and they love it.

Julie: Have you started changing the environments to be more-- less school centric? So to speak?

Tim: Oh, yeah. Yeah. The only session that I did was that was school like was that very first session, which was a lecture hall. I've never been back in the lecture hall since. It's always been something else.

Julie: That's great.

Tim: So I try to keep-- it's not that I want to keep it informal, I want to keep it comfortable.

Julie: And interesting, too. Interesting and immersive, and have those environments relate back to some of your lessons, I'm sure, to some degree. Now, tell us about some of the challenges that some of the kids might have had, and if you could overcome them, and how you helped them through it.

Tim: That's a really good question. [laughs] We do a lot of this in 2D, so it's in pancake mode, it's flat screen. And the reason that I'm able to do what I do, is because as part of their HE studies, the college have agreed that we will loan laptops and whatever equipment the students need, we will loan it to them for the duration of their studies with us, whether it be for the one year course or the two year variant. So I knew that every single one of them had a good quality laptop. And we're talking 500 British pounds for a laptop, 16 gig of RAM, it wasn't slow. So I knew that I'd be able to put them into VR and push them a little bit, and the equipment they had would do the job. And I think that was very important for me. And those laptops are what I call a leveller, you always worry that when you're doing something a little bit special like this, how are the students going to be able to access it? Do they have an old laptop or an old PC? Is it a family PC that people always want to get hold of? Is there a problem with the Internet connection? We try to iron those out straight away, and the laptops they had were very important and allowed us to do that. So that's how we got round that one, really. And it was fortuitous that we already had that in place. And I think that was part of my planning. Because we had the laptops, I was able to do this. And then, of course, I had to convince my managers, because everyone was saying, "Right, okay, use Teams, use email, use whatever you can to keep in touch with your students, phone them every day if you have to." And I'm saying, "Um, actually, can I just be with them for the whole day in VR? They can see me, I can see them. We can talk in real time. Can we just do that?" And they're looking at me thinking, what's that about? So I had to explain to them why, and what it was, and kind of show them. And they said, "This is just amazing. We didn't even know you could do this." And I went, "Yeah." So now they're looking a lot of what we're doing. And they're talking about we've now -- as a college -- going to try and put a strategy in place for distance learning, if anything like this were to ever happen again. And I'd like to think that maybe they'll look at some of the-- well, I *know* they'll look at some of the work I've been doing. I know that my principal will, he's really dead keen on what I'm doing. And maybe that may form part of the college's guidelines. Who knows?

Julie: That leads me to another question and conversation that I've been having with some other leaders, and even Caitlin Krause, who you graciously introduced me to. We've had a couple of great conversations, absolutely. And we've talked about how kids check in for the day -- or shall I say "students", I don't want to say "kids" -- how do students check in with you for the day? Do they-- I know you adjusted their timetable, but do they go into VR and say, "Good morning, Mr. Jackson?"

Tim: [laughs] Nothing so formal.

Julie: How do they say say hello or -- I guess -- acknowledge that they're present for the day?

Tim: What they normally do, they just turn up to my session. They just-- they spawn at any point in the VR environment, and just go, "Morning, Tim."

Julie: They show up. [laughs]

Tim: And that's what I get. And I'm thinking, "All right. Okay." The problem I have is that obviously they can create an avatar in any style they want. And of course, they tend to use their gaming tags. And I've got no idea who they are. So the only reason I know who they are is by their voice. And then I started to associate their avatar with their voice, with their name. And then I was able to do things like a register. And I was able to look up into the class to see this class filled with avatars: robots, and strange people with like bright blond hair-- the bright, bright blonde hair was fine. It was just the style they had, it was really freaky. But I was able to then recognize them. And I was then calling out the register and I knew exactly where they were and I was able to place them. And the really interesting thing: do you remember I said a minute ago that I said in real life, when you were in the classroom, they came in and they had their particular seats?

Julie: Yes.

Tim: In VR, within a week, they had a particular space they wanted to stand in -- or sit in, depending on what environment we were in -- in VR.

Julie: That's so interesting.

Tim: They took ownership of it. They believed it to be true, and related it to their real life.

Julie: So interesting. And I guess a different perspective for you as well, just kind of looking out at this classroom -- who used to be humans -- in front of you. And now there are all these different robots and--

Tim: Strange creatures and--

Julie: Strange creatures, but also probably hosting a little bit of character from each of those students that you could identify them, whether it be like spiky blond hair, or just a very robotic type character. They took the time to customize it to who they are. I guess you kind of feel a little bit more of their personality this way.

Tim: Yes, absolutely, 100 percent. And it was quite interesting, because some of it, you look it and you think, "Oh, yes, I know who that is." And you could tell. And sometimes they'd catch you out and you think, "Oh, I'm not quite sure about that." And then you'd see that there was another side to them, that you'd never realize that was there, that you would probably never know about if you had your lessons in real life.

Julie: That you're actually getting to know your students more--

Tim: At a deeper level.

Julie: --through VR at a deeper level, than you were in the classroom standing right in front of them.

Tim: Exactly. So much has come out of this, so much. It's been a very interesting psychological experiment, as well as a technological experiment. And the things that I found out about my students -- and about myself, actually -- I'm absolutely gobsmacked. And I think the potential for VR in education is much bigger than we realize it to be. And I think it's when we start having experiences like this, we start to realize, "Hang on. There's something going on here that we can tap into." Can I just mention one thing you're saying about registration?

Julie: Yes, please.

Tim: I didn't have a formal-- well, I did have a formal registration, I'd call their names out, but I kind of knew who was gonna be there. And I could see. But here's the interesting thing. I mean, these guys, they're good students, okay? All my students are good students. And their attendance -- okay, you get the odd sickness and all that sort of thing -- their attendance is probably sitting around about 90 to 95 percent, which is pretty good. Pretty good, okay? I'm telling you now, the minute we went into VR, we're now hitting attendance rates of nearly a 100 percent, because no matter how they feel, they will always put on a headset, or open up their laptop and engage with it, because they don't want to miss out, because they enjoy it, because it's so much fun.

Julie: And that should be the way learning is.

Tim: Yes, absolutely.

Julie: Well, I wish we could end on that amazing note, but I do want to know more.

Tim: Yes, please do.

Julie: How the students transition in their productivity? So you've got them there. And I'm interested in the productivity, and also how your evaluations of them are going.

Tim: Right. Okay. Well, I mean, they did amazingly well, actually. They transitioned very, very well and very quickly. I think it helped that we'd had maybe two or three sessions in VR already, not formal teaching sessions, just-- I like to call them assimilations sessions. Let's just jump in and have a look around, jump off the walls if you want to, get it out your system. So when we actually went into VR to teach, they'd already got out of that "Oh, what does this do? Why does this happen, and how do I do this?" They got out of that habit. So they were there to learn straight away. And I think what was interesting was, within the first two weeks of us being in VR, I was already setting exercise work for them. I think within the first three weeks I was getting them to do presentations in virtual reality, which they'd never done before. And some of them really hate presentations. And it was interesting, because I asked them afterwards, how did you feel about that, giving a presentation in VR, and difference to real life? Because they really scare you in real life. And they said, "You know, it wasn't as bad, because we knew that they were there, but they weren't in front of us." There's lots of hidden little gems that we can pick up from trying different things in virtual reality, just to see how the students react. But they've done amazingly well. All of them are capable of hosting in VR. They're capable of moderating in VR. So they've got that skillset as well. They've done their presentations in VR. There's more to come, as we come to the end of the academic year. They've really fitted in well, and I'm really, really pleased.

Julie: Do you think these students are going to want to go back to the classroom, full time?

Tim: [laughs] Interesting you say that. I actually had one of them say to me the other day, out loud -- it was totally free will, I didn't challenge, I didn't ask for any feedback -- he just came out with it and he said, "You know what, Tim?" He said, "I'm gonna really miss being in VR." And he said, "And I never thought I would say that, but I really like it in here, and I feel comfortable." And I thought, wow, that's a massive turnaround.

Julie: It really is something that education systems need to -- even yours, Broadstairs College -- they need to consider how they move forward in the next academic year of transitioning in-person classroom lessons into-- are they fully in VR, or is it half in VR and half in the classroom? And I guess time will tell on how we roll back into what school is like and the education systems are going to be like, after we get through a little bit more of this pandemic stage. But we all knew that the education systems needed to be revamped or re-looked at, and students are learning differently. But this situation has forced us -- especially your classroom -- into this methodology of teaching now. I feel like it might be tricky to go back to the old way.

Tim: I must say that I did plan -- at some point this year -- to have some lessons in VR, because I could see that working with Daniel [Dyboski-Bryant] and Lorelle [VanFossen] in Educators In VR, I could see there was a real potential here, and there's a dream of one of their colleagues who's no longer with us -- Chris Long -- about this borderless classrooms, having classes around the world that we could sit in on. And I could see that vision, I could really feel it. And so I wanted to do something in VR. I wanted to see if it was possible, but it was only ever going to be maybe one or two sessions, because you have to be careful you don't stray too far from the path. Which is really odd, because then this virus came along and forced the issue, absolutely forced the issue, smashed the timetable debate. And I said, "Right, that's it, I'm going to do it." And I told my managers and they looked to me and they said, "Yeah, go on then." So I did.

Julie: [chuckles]

Tim: And now, when they start talk about planning for next year, they look at me and they say, "Yeah, you're all right, aren't you?" [laughs]

Julie: [laughs]

Tim: I'm telling you now, if they say to me in September, "Tim, we're thinking we're going to do online for the first semester," I'm going to say "No problem. I'm already prepped. I'm ready to go."

Julie: Incredible. So what is your advice to teachers, to learn and kind of transition their thoughts to doing what you're doing? And obviously, you did it in a very fast pace. You were already kind--

Tim: One weekend.

Julie: [chuckles] Yeah. We don't expect every teacher to--.

Tim: No. [chuckles]

Julie: --transform as quickly. I always talk about, we need champions in schools to be able to pursue the implementation of this, but maybe just outline a few things that you suggest teachers should take on themselves.

Tim: I think the first thing is that I already thought that I'd like to do this. It was already in my mind. I just didn't know exactly how and when. If you're going to do it, just do it. Don't think twice about it. Just choose your platform and go for it. I've chosen two platforms, because they're very different and they give me different things. And then become familiar with those platforms. Go and have a look at them, see what the functions are. Go and spend a little bit of time in that. You don't have to be in a VR headset. You do it on a laptop. And I think if you're hosting a session, a class, do it on a laptop, rather than in a 3D headset, because you've got more control that way. Let the students be in a VR headset if they want to be. You don't need to be, because you're there as the provider more than anything. So get a half decent laptop. Get your platform set up on there and go and play. Then go and speak to your superiors, okay? There's no point going to talk to them, if you're not comfortable with what you're doing, because it will go wrong. So if you're going to put yourself out there and say, "Hey, I want to make a difference of these students, I want to offer them something that's a little bit unusual." Be confident. Be sure you have the skillset behind you. Doesn't take long to get familiar with these platforms. Then go to your superior and say, "Can I show you what I can do?" And then give them a little bit of a demo, and show them and say, "This is what I can do with my students." And have a good rationale as to why you're doing it, and most importantly, how the students will benefit from it. Once you've got that, then actually the move over to VR is reasonably straightforward, because you can put presentations into VR. You can have discussion seminars. You can have private one-to-one tutorial discussions with students. We use Discord as well, which gives us a little bit of a communication channel at the backend of it, as well. So we can talk to each other, I'm posting stuff on there all the time. I use the college system, which is Moodle. So it's not just one thing, it's a combination of things. But you have to be sure before you start how you want to do it, okay? And what your endgame plan is. I think once you've got that straight in your mind, then you're able to move forward and put it into place.

Julie: Amazing. That's a great way to end off our podcast session today. Thank you so much, Tim, for joining us today. And we do have an exciting week for you, being a part of the Virtual and Augmented Reality Global Summit. I'll be speaking as well. But I know you have a panel coming up.

Tim: Yes, I'll be there.

Julie: Yeah. If anybody's listening on Tuesday,. Tim is speaking in the future smart digital ecosystems in a post-COVID era. And that's Tuesday, June 2nd, at 10:30 in the morning. So you'll be able to share your insights there.

Tim: UTC. Make sure you know what timezone that's in, okay? [laughs]

Julie: It's about 4:30 in the morning for us in Eastern Standard Time Zone. [chuckles] But that's OK. It's going to be a great week of some great conversation. So thank you so much, Tim, for joining me today on the XR for Learning podcast.

Tim: Thank you for inviting me, Julie. I've really enjoyed being here today and talking with you.

Julie: Keep inspiring other teachers to follow in your footsteps, because I think what you're doing is incredible.

Tim: Thank you very much.

When we deepen our level of presence in XR, it translates to how we lead better, manage better, and learn better. This pays dividends in our connection and wellbeing in the "real world," too!  That’s what today’s guest, author and XR designer Caitlin Krause, specializes in. Caitlin authored "The Importance of Presence" chapter in The Global Resource Guide to XR Collaboration, and joins Julie to discuss the importance of presence in XR environments.

Julie: Hello, my name is Julie Smithson, and I am your XR for Learning podcast host. I look forward to bringing you insight into changing the way that we learn and teach using XR technologies to explore, enhance and individualize learning for everyone. Caitlin Krause is my next guest, and she is a globally recognized learning and leadership expert, author, and keynote speaker. In her 2019 book -- "Mindful by Design" -- through her consulting, she helps individual leaders and teams leverage mindfulness, storytelling, and design principles to connect more deeply with their communities. Caitlin's organization, MindWise, focuses on creating experiences that increase awareness, emotional intelligence, and creative collaboration opportunities. Thank you so much for joining me today, Caitlin. I really look forward to our conversation.

Caitlin: Thanks so much, Julie. It's great to be here.

Julie: We're going to talk about something so important today that is maybe not on everybody's mind, but it certainly is on ours. I'm just going to pass it over to you to do a bit of introduction, to let us know what you're doing in this space and how you're making an impact.

Caitlin: Sure. Well, I would say, first off, that it is a time of great transitions and adaptation. And I lean into that. I feel like this is a time that is extremely important for people to look at the notion of connection. And my mission in founding MindWise five years ago, and now in working with so much immersive technology and XR collaboration, really the mission that drives me is to empower humanity through connection. So I'm always looking-- I have a background in technology and also in learning design, and I'm really looking at that human factor of how do we use technology in ways that empower us. And in terms of that word, "connection", I'm thinking a lot about that connection inside that we feel when we're connected with our purpose, with our presence, and also with the values that are underneath what we're driving in business and in the way that we conduct our life. And also that connection outside, which is with other people, other experiences. I love being able to talk about this topic with you, because there are so many nuances to how that shows up in the world. I would say that I don't think there's a clear distinction at this point between business and personal lives, because many people -- probably ourselves included, I know myself -- there's not a sharp line between how I'm showing up personally and professionally, because a lot of us are working from home or we're driven to businesses that actually involve our personal self and our drive.

Julie: Yeah, absolutely. So much has changed in the past couple of-- just a matter of couple of weeks. We're only about three months into this situation that we're all in, working from home. And maybe just taking that baseline moment to recognize where we are today. So people have been told they have to stay home, they're working remotely, and now they're dealing with technology. Let's call it Zoom, let's start there. Everybody seems to be logging in to Zoom. And I actually had a great experience today, hearing my mother -- who's 76 years old -- manage to coordinate her own Zoom call with her tai-chi ladies. And this was after a couple of weeks of frustration from our family, trying to get her set up and do everything remotely. And she managed to to take this on herself. And it just goes to show how everybody is going to have to transform into using digital technologies. And what does it take for somebody to become comfortable enough and human enough to be able to open up and engage in this digital technology from many different purposes? From my mom's personal side of things, to work where transactions are taking place. What is it going to take for us to become immersed in that technology, to trust it enough to be able to be productive and to have our points heard? Maybe we can talk about that. Where do we even start? And that's the importance of presence that we're here talking about it today.

Caitlin: I'd love to talk about that. I'm smiling ear to ear, hearing the story of your mom. I think it's not exclusive that you might consider yourself either tech savvy. I think right now is a really raw time. But you can flip that intimidation, maybe, that some of these platforms or mediums might have caused in the past into a curiosity, where maybe some people are also experiencing that, that we have greater compassion for each other as we encounter these new forms. And as your mom starts to use Zoom, suddenly it brings people together and the experience itself doesn't have to be glossy and perfect. I think it's been a beautiful time for people using things for the first time and saying, "Oh, I had some things that worked, and some things that didn't work." And communities have been people that I know have been really generous with each other and sometimes talking each other through the troubleshooting. And I think a lot of us who pilot businesses, we're used to doing that rapid prototyping, are used to having that lean method of trying to iterate upwards and hitting some roadblocks along the way. But that-- to me, that associates a lot with mindfulness and how you try to stick with curiosity over an impulse to judge and to be a harsh critic of ourselves. So, yeah, I love that story.

Julie: Yeah. I had a conversation with somebody yesterday, on how there's been this big gallop towards getting there and getting people connected and opening up Zoom. And that intimidation of digital technology can be overwhelming for anybody at any age. And getting them there is one thing, being able to sign in, to create that log in, these are these little steps that where us as humans rebuild that relationship with technology that becomes part of us, and we build a relationship with our technology, and we become more and more comfortable with it. Just within a matter of hours, my mom's sending me a message saying, "I'm fine, dear. I just finished my Zoom calls with the ladies." And saying it like it was nothing. And already my mom now has this relationship with technology that she didn't have last week. She was so stressed, to the point where we were almost in tears. And we had backup solutions, of course, but she managed it on her own. So it's-- what is it going to take for that comfort level of people, so that they can relax and embrace that next step of transformation, really?

Caitlin: When we talk about it on a micro-scale and it could-- I mean, this is also a case where the same idea could be applied to business and spatial technology. One of my mentors, Howard Rheingold, he's a collaborator and he often says, "I'm not the expert. The expert in the room is usually the room." And digital literacy is not singular. I often say "digital literacies", because we're talking about everything from what you and I talk about, the emotional intelligence factor, how we're present. Yes, using the technology and knowing how to log in is one thing, knowing how to choose your avatar. But then it's kind of a question of experience design. And that's where I describe myself as an experienced designer and an architect of experience, because there are thoughtful choices that we're making along the way. And presence is one of those anchors how we intentionally set ourselves up to be the most present in the experiences. It's not arbitrary. And to me, it's part of the digital literacy skillset that points to the future of how we can work, and stay human, and stay connected, and not lose our humanity in the process.

Julie: And some of the work that we're doing together and that you're writing for us as well in the XR Collaboration Resource Guide And Directory. We're now talking about all these different platforms where we can meet and make these things happen and have these communications between one another, that can increase productivity, develop a project, construct a design, or create a design. And there's all these different factors that now take place inside these platforms that allow us to become more human and allow-- or allow us to put up the walls, looking from the other perspective. But they allow us to engage with these conversations using this technology. And there's a term that I know we've talked about before, "humanics", and that relates back to what you were saying, just on being able to understand the digital side, and know that they're someone-- that you're logging in, that you're engaging with people, but understanding that the technology does play a part in that role.

Caitlin: And the word "meaning" is actually coming up in my mind right now, because we can certainly create scenarios and we can create a lot of great business uses. But to give something a sense of context and meaning is a human skill. And I think that the more we empower people to feel both comfortable with the materials and with the technology itself, the more people can really focus on their sense of empowerment, creativity, and imagination. That's part of what I love about the XR environments, because there's greater accessibility, there's actually greater ability to interchange. You can collaborate in ways that you cannot in quote-unquote, "real life". But I would say that-- well, we talk about this a lot in the in the collaboration document, what makes something real? What makes something a genuine experience? And usually it's that I'm fully aware, invested, and part of it. And I think there are qualities to this collaborative experience that you can have in XR that I would argue are more real, and really kind of beyond what people might imagine. In the document, there are lots of examples and cases, where people can start to dive in and visualize how it could help them and how it could augment the experiences that they already have in their life and in their business.

Julie: And this is something that you also help people with through your consultation strategies. And it's not just for business. It's not just for personal. This is a leadership trait of being able to also encourage your team and your colleagues to be able to engage using this digital technology. And that's a transformation, too.

Caitlin: Absolutely. I started to write Mindful by Design, this book that came out last year. I started writing it about three years ago, based on some of the neuroscience research I'd been doing and some of the learning strategies. And I really wanted people to feel that they had access to some of this compelling research showing how do we learn best, think best, and get over some of the blocks that we might be experiencing in learning worlds and leadership worlds, where there is a lot of decision making on the fly. And I bring that up because it led me to explore some of the ways that VR and XR are special in allowing people to feel fully immersed in an experience and also to have lower inhibition. So that's really interesting, because now I'm working on a second book about to come out, that has to do with presence, and leadership, and learning, and also how to design experiences. Knowing some of this research that points to some of the best considerations, but also taking your own personal strategies and making it something that's personal to you. So that's ultimately why the first book, I called it "Mindful by Design", because people were telling me, "Well, I've been on a retreat to learn more about presence and mindfulness, but I don't have time for that when I start my workday. I have to then focus on my KPIs, and I have to focus on all of the achievements." And I was thinking, well, it's not binary. The choice to be aware is embedded in every moment. And you get to be the designer of your experience if you have certain tools and techniques to practice.

Julie: That's so important, to be part of that journey. And I don't think you and I, we-- one of the first times we met was actually in VR. You were in Hubs. And I-- it's part of that moment where you have to be present in order for that experience to be successful, to reach the ultimate experience of what is supposed to be. That's why we're having this conversation, because we want everybody to learn about the importance of presence and that you can't just brush it off and say, "I'm going to do it only three or four times a week" or "I'm only going to study it once a week." It's a daily practice, and it does tie into healthy mindset and the health benefits of knowing who you are when you go into these spaces, because you are now going to be tracked -- shall we say -- or evaluated a lot more, because of the technology that's going to be able to trace those feelings, to be able to evaluate the transactions that you will have between people as well. So you have to have this, the right mindset to be prepared to be embraced that way. Once you enter into this technology, it's a very interesting approach that people will have and translate them. Is there any experience that you've had that you've seen or you've converted somebody?

Caitlin: Well, it's interesting. I found myself fascinated by this talk, too, because as we're talking, if anyone's listening and they're thinking, "Oh, this term 'presence', it seems very abstract." It might show up in some ways that are abstract. But the idea of intentional awareness is really what I'm talking about. And that notion of being there and being in an experience. And I see the paradoxes. We're talking about it right now because, of course, with different platforms and -- let's say, for example -- virtual reality, you might have an avatar that you're choosing, and you might feel that your goal is to lose yourself in the experience. And that loss of self-conscious inhibition could be part of what brings you greater curiosity and imagination. So the key here, if we're talking about presence coupled with identity, there's plasticity. This process is really good for the brain, because we're trying to build meaning. And you have an adaptive mindset by nature when you're entering a VR experience, because you're trying to both problem solve, and it could be as simple as figure out what the physical environment is, or the simulated environment when you're inside a space. There's so many different dynamics. I've worked on projects that take that premise of presence, and I've built applications where the focus is on relationship building. And people come in and it could be a project team or it could be people meeting for the first time. And in a virtual space, we're able to go even deeper and do more with people about how you interface with others that might be from different backgrounds, different languages, sometimes, different cultures. But how you might problem solve and communicate across barriers. And you put that into a gamified situation and suddenly people start to problem solve in really creative ways. And they've told me afterwards that some of the situations, they have smiles across their faces. These are applications that I've done with business leaders and also with learning groups. So that's one aspect. Another project I've worked on, I've been the creative storyteller, an experience designer, for an application that involved health and wellness, specifically for adolescents who are dealing with depression. So we were looking at the application in XR that might be able to help. And it has great trials right now, assessing some of the feedback and some of the statistics. This is an epidemic that used to be kind of silent. And now a lot of people are looking and saying, "Well, how could a virtual experience help someone connect and help them focus on wellbeing and help them articulate both suffering and experiences of joy?" So I bring that up very specifically and people who want to talk more about it, I'd love it if you could get in touch with me, because in addition to all of this, I'm constantly also thinking about how how these experiences lead to better active imagination, that are creative capacity. So a lot of times the experience does have a benefit and then it takes away some of the pain points. But then the bonus is, you're left at the end feeling more rejuvenated and connected. And then people have responded and said the following week they had these great ideas that just came to them, or they had a greater feeling of inspiration, an ability to ideate a new way, based on what I call "filling your wellspring". You meet that basic human need that a lot of us overleap when we go into new technology, and then suddenly you are more capable and more creative.

Julie: In all of our conversations -- I know you have many different conversations, I have many different ones -- and from so many different perspectives, benefits and ways to enhance a positive change in people and behaviors and things like that. There's so many different ways to look at this. And it's overwhelming for me, listening to-- to think about the above and beyond a digital presence. And technology now, obviously, with adolescents just from an entertainment point of view. Being able to use this technology to have them check in and become present in their learning capacity. I think this is where the technology is going to hold a superpower to help adolescents learn and become engaged, because they're able to become present. And it comes back to the presence factor and the fact that they can check in with a gamified application, or just to being able to have the teacher monitor the progress. And there's so many coming back to that, being able to check in and immerse themselves into these experiences. That potential there is huge.

Caitlin: And reflection. They're able to have -- especially for people who are maybe being introverted -- where I know there are new programs. All different types of users that might have -- in a traditional situation -- just felt either uninvited or shut down. Now there are so many reflective tools, and augmented assistance from AI that can better empower us and inform us. Users are not just passively along for the ride in an XR environment. They get to both drive their experience and also reflect about it, because they start to see along the way "There are tools and I'm recognized. My voice is heard." I think it's just amazing. It's very empowering. And I think we're at the threshold. You said the word "transformation" at the beginning of this conversation together. And I just--Well, how can it transform what we value most? Because we're not just in an experience, we're also absorbing it, and it's a process. So I think this notion of-- both of us are so passionate about this work right now. So I think that's what's driving us, this idea of building a better human future, using this technology.

Julie: Well, I think that is a really good way to try and wrap up this particular conversation. And I know you have some great things happening this week for yourself. And when we do launch this podcast, I know that the same day you're also hosting a session. Do you want to tell everybody about the session that you're holding on Thursday?

Caitlin: Sure. I'm holding a session on Thursday in Altspace. I've been doing different group sessions on the platform ENGAGE and also in Altspace. And this Thursday, I'm focusing on grounding, presence, and creative capacity. Everybody is invited. It has an open setting, where-- that's one of the benefits of Altspace: the bar to entry is very low, so people can jump in and sign up. You have to register in advance. But I co-designed the environment to be something that also informs the practices. So I'll be leading the first hour of this two hour experience that focuses on exercises for well-being. But I'm really thinking about grounding being one of the key elements, because we all need to get some ground these days.

Julie: Absolutely. And if you can close us off, Caitlin, with a couple of suggestions for listeners on steps to take, or some mindfulness recognition, observations, steps that they can take at home. What does it take to become present?

Caitlin: It's a good time to ask that, because I've been thinking about this a lot, writing this book. So I would say, stay tuned if you love this topic, and join my website community, because I'll be sharing a lot about presence. Then the first-- I guess just responding in the moment to thinking about this, the idea of presence and showing up to an experience means also that there's a playful exercise that involves trying to see things with fresh eyes. So I invite people just to take a moment and try to really focus on one thing. And if you have a window nearby, maybe that one thing is connected to nature. Since nature is a great reminder of both presence and this notion of adaptation in the moment. You know, I know a lot of us might think, "Oh, I've seen the same thing a million times," but actually, how is that thing that you're looking at? For example, I'm looking at a tree out of my window. How is it different? Maybe how does it feel to look at it, and think about the fact that we're in a transition point right now? Maybe where you are, like me, we're in the northern hemisphere and it's getting hotter. Maybe that tree has leaves that have been changing. It's a simple exercise. But what you're doing is you're noticing both the difference in your view day by day and also that this thing that you're looking at is not just the category of tree. It's a very special individual tree. And as humans, when we start to just notice the difference, one exercise would actually be to then take the practice deeper and sketch the tree once a week for a succession of four weeks, and see if there are any changes. There's an art of noticing. It's actually a brain practice that when you take time to focus like that, and it could be a tree, it could be your child in the morning when you see them for the first time, you start to recognize that, oh, sometimes we take this moment for granted and we just compartmentalize it into something we've experienced many times before. But actually this moment of intention is the only one. And it's the only one that actually gives us power over having this experience as something that is ours. In a very philosophical way, but also down to something very simple. It elevates me to a spirit of gratitude, because I start to see actually that's true. And when a person shows up and I'm encountering that person for the first time, that's also an opportunity for me to listen, and to be present, and to actually absorb and endorse what will show up in the moment that I cannot predict. But I can hold space for it. It surprises people when you start to do that.

Julie: It's almost like the importance of presence and what you get back in return is just an abundance of overwhelming joy and gratitude. And it gives back.

Caitlin: It's kind of like sending the rough edges of your mind.

Julie: Absolutely. Well, that's a great way to finish off that podcast, Caitlin. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Caitlin: We always have conversations that spring up in the moment. Yeah, deep gratitude for this time together.

Julie: Absolutely. Thank you so much for joining me, Caitlin. My name is Julie Smithson and this is the XR for Learning podcast. Thanks, everybody, for joining.

XR tech is great for the extended classroom, but it’s not the only way it can be used to teach. Jason Palmer explains how Winged Whale Media is using VR and 360 video to train tour guides on travel destinations they can’t travel to right now.

Julie: Hello, my name is Julie Smithson, and I am your XR for Learning podcast host. I look forward to bringing you insight into changing the way that we learn and teach using XR technologies to explore, enhance, and individualize learning for everyone. Today, my guest is Jason Palmer. As the director of new media at Winged Whale Media, it's Jason's responsibility to help transform [the] client's vision into something that will make a difference. So with a background in digital communications from the University of Waterloo here in Canada, Jason spent the last 10 years in content creation with traditional media in videography and photography. Jason has spearheaded the use of 360 degree video VR content for a handful of clients, and now is on the forefront of producing 360 VR video content in the travel and tourism industry for major hotel brands, national tourism boards, and cruise lines. And now broadened its scope to include full virtual environments and is working on bringing tourism to people in unprecedented times of restricted travel. Thank you so much, Jason, for joining me this morning.

Jason: It's an absolute pleasure.

Julie: Why don't you tell me a little bit about Winged Whale Media? It sounds like it's a great place to start.

Jason: [chuckles] Yeah, absolutely. So, Winged Whale Media -- as you mentioned there -- we've been around for a little bit more than 10 years now. And we started out in the traditional side, doing a lot of photography and video. In particular with the tourism industry, we would capture a lot of resorts and destinations. For example, a tour operator or a resort would send us down to a destination -- usually in the Caribbean, I might add, which is always a benefit -- and we would capture the rooms, we'd capture the pools, we'd capture the casinos, or the discos, or what have you, and bring that content back. We've been doing that for a while and it's been a great ride. I don't know if you want me to get into the name of the company now. [laughs]

Julie: Yeah, absolutely. Well, obviously, with travel and tourism, the big question is, how is your industry doing? Because nobody's travelling, right? That's the first thing that everybody's probably thinking as they're listening to this podcast. So how has your business changed, and what kind of services are you starting to do within the company to support travel and tourism?

Jason: We've really kind of examined over the last couple of months how we can bring education to the travel and tourism industry. And I'll give you kind of a specific example in that. Typically, a destination such as Antigua and Barbuda, or the Bahamas, or really any country kind of on the planet will do what's called a familiarization trip. And that's where they will bring a number of industry professionals -- whether they're travel agents or press -- to a destination and kind of showcase the destination to them. And for the smaller organizations, you're maybe talking anywhere from 30 to 90 people for a familiarization trip over the course of the entire year. So if you're taking 30 travel agents down to showcase your product over the course of the entire year, that's not very many when you consider that there are 5,000+ travel agents in Canada, there are 20,000+ travel agents in the United States, let alone the number around the world. So you're not getting a great deal of exposure for the effort that you're putting in.

And so what we've been looking at doing is how we can broaden that scope and bring that to a much greater number. And with VR video, what we've seen is that it's the next closest thing to being in a destination. We kind of call it a "one-and-a-half-hand experience." It's not first-hand experience, but it's better than second-hand experience. And so what we do is we create these pieces with both consumer and travel agent education in mind. We will create pieces that are kind of shorter, more inspirational pieces for the consumer. We're certainly not trying to replace travel with this technology. I don't think anything of that nature will be able to be replaced, and we wouldn't want to do that. But we create the small piece for the consumer, and then we create a much longer piece with additional information whereby we interview public officials, tour operators, hoteliers, a variety of travel suppliers, and we try to bring that education to the travel agent.

And we try to create it in such an immersive experience that they retain the information longer, that they're more engaged with it, that they develop an affinity for the supplier, and really learn and be comfortable in promoting or selling that product. I know in a lot of situations, a lot of people are not able to experience the product that they're selling in the travel industry, and that, of course, is problematic on a number of levels. And we're really trying to help curb that, and give people the confidence and the opportunity to sell things that they've never been able to sell before and to increase their own professionalism.

Julie: It's such an interesting opportunity for the travel industry to feature the best parts of their product, or their location, their beaches, the hotels, the hotel rooms, the volcanoes, the waterfalls, everything. And we're all sitting at home right now, wishing we could go.

Jason: Mm-hm.

Julie: What do you think it's going to take for the public or for everyone to kind of go and reach into VR, and start to experience these places just naturally to inspire where they want to go next?

Jason: I think we kind of call it cooped up in COVID.

Julie: [chuckles] Yeah.

Jason: People are just kind of stranded at home with probably a little bit of boredom and a little bit of repetition. And so what this really allows people to do is be inspired for when the borders open up, when the flights come back into the air, so that they can get a sense of where they want to go. We often think of it. It's going to be a mad scramble for those travel dollars for travel suppliers when travel comes on board. And so they need to be preparing themselves to be in a position whereby they are speaking to the consumer so that when it comes online, the consumer is is basically trying to hand them their money right out the gate.

Julie: [chuckles] Yeah.

Jason: So we try to do it in 360 video. And that is easily digestible now. I mean, a lot of people have seen it on Facebook. A lot of people seen it on YouTube. I mean, the headset experience is there. It's not quite where obviously we'd like to see it, but it's improving year over year, which is great. And we're just going to see an uptick. I mean, just about every major museum in the world and art gallery is developing 360 tours to inspire people. A lot of organizations -- in our experience -- have been hesitant over the years to do such a thing, because then they think, oh, well, then this person's not going to go. They've already been to the museum. And that's just kind of a flat out myth. What we've always seen in the numbers is an uptick in participation, in engagement, in interest. And then usually that is followed by a significant boost in actual travel spend. It's been really great to kind of see this transformation. I don't want to say it's been great to see COVID, but it has certainly altered the way in which people perceive the XR community, and the product, and how travel's being affected as well.

Julie: And so many things with travel that are going to change when we can fly again. And I was reading this morning an article about the new rules about flying. Nobody sits in the middle seats and you actually have to request to go to the washroom, so that you're not in the aisle at the same time as somebody else. And those types of implementations are going to change the way that even the airlines staff are managing. So you've got to train them on their new procedures. So there's training upon training, and education upon education about new ways of doing things. So being able to use 360 formats the way that you do to educate, whether it's a company in their training, or a consumer about the product, or the next procedure of the way things that will happen.

Jason: Yeah, absolutely. We've traditionally done a lot of 360 video content, but we're also moving into a kind of full virtual rendered atmosphere, using a platform like ENGAGE. And we could bring in a full interior of an airplane and walk people through what the new training procedures are. And now you don't have a ton of staff on site, who are beside each other in a cramped space learning about their new procedures. You can do that all virtually in a safe space.

Julie: So just to unpack that a little bit, in what you just shared is that you're using a platform like ENGAGE VR -- a great team who are doing amazing things -- that you can actually drop in an asset of an airplane into this platform, where you can actually work through building these digital interactions for the user to experience what it's like to be on that plane. So it's kind of an overlap into another platform, but it's-- what you're building inside and that engagement that the company is doing right now.

Jason: Yeah. ENGAGE allows for a great deal of collaboration between us and clients and amongst themselves. We're going to be looking at this for the cruise line industry, for the airline industry, for the hotel industry. One of the great things about the XR industry is that, basically, the possibilities are infinite. We're actually going to be holding an event -- June 11th, I believe -- for the tourism industry, so that they can get a sense of what we can do in ENGAGE, and how that they can collaborate in space. So I can send you the poster and some information.

Julie: That would be incredible, I think. And it comes back to our situation that we're in right now. I think people have that cringing feeling about travel and tourism right now, because nobody can go anywhere and the potential of getting this virus. So it's kind of that touchy point of people just don't even want to go. We as humans still need to experience. We need to see and feel. And this technology actually provides us with the opportunities to go so many places and see so many things and inspire -- as you said -- to be able to plan to go there, once we are able to travel again and experience the world.

Jason: Part of the human condition is just the desire to explore, and the desire to see and learn. I think that's just kind of innate in humans. And in particular, the most recent trends in travel surround themselves with experiences. People want experiences.

Julie: And these experiences build on empathy and cultural agility.

Jason: Yeah.

Julie: And I think that that's a huge education component.

Jason: It's exactly it. And we're able to bring that to the consumer, we're able to bring that to the supplier and training them, and reaching out to the consumer and bringing that knowledge to them, and -- I guess -- kind of opening the door in that sense.

Julie: It's a bit of a criss-cross of education and training, which the whole world is learning at the same time right now. So immersing people into 360 environments -- like you're doing -- lends itself to the same exposure for everybody.

Jason: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Julie: That's great. And what other kind of work are you doing with hotels? That's another impact spot on being able to bring people back into the hotel industry, when there's no forecast of jumping on a plane right now. [chuckles]

Jason: Yeah. My thoughts in a lot of this stuff, just like I'm sure a lot of people in the XR field, they're continually evolving. And so, as I think about the platforms that we use -- like ENGAGE -- we'll be able to take people on photorealistic tours of hotels, and just be able to basically walk throughout the entire resort, or walk the entire streets of London, or of ancient Egypt. When it comes to the hotel industry, what we've typically done, the experience that we've had in the past is we would go and capture a resort on 360 video from the perspective of someone visiting the resort. People who are behind the bar will pass you a drink, the room attendant will let you know about what's going on at the resort this day, what the activities are available, those kinds of things.

And what we've seen is that works out really well when it comes to training both the consumer and the agent. And we've taken hotel properties. We've done work with Grupo Posadas, which is a resort and hotel chain down in Mexico. We've done training sessions with travel agents up here, and they love it. It's more engaging. They remember-- the retention rate for information on behalf of the agent is much higher. We're looking at 80 percent in some cases, versus 20 percent information retention from PowerPoints and traditional videos.

Where we're looking at how we can kind of merge those two and see what can be done, I would love to take people on tours of resorts in the sales process of the consumer, because the consumer is looking to experience a destination. "This is the resort that you can go at, or you can go to this resort, or you can go to this resort." and take them on a small tour of that resort before they're even there, and see what they think of them. I think it's a real opportunity for the properties and the destinations to really refine and hone in on their unique selling propositions, and to be able to put their best foot forward to their clients.

Julie: It'll be interesting to see with the translation of sales move towards closing a deal online as we advance and we start to implement those payment systems that you're able to translate that sale right there on the spot. If there is a specific thing, "Oh, my goodness. I love this beach. We're coming here." and instantly-- one day we're going to be able to pay that, right there on the spot.

Jason: And we've seen that, where we've had people come to the booth that we're representing for a particular destination. And they said, "This is the property that I want. This is where I want to go. Where can I book this?" Some of the experiences that we've had as we represent destinations at shows and we walk people through these experiences are incredible. It's just wonderful to see.

We were representing the islands of Antigua and Barbuda at a trade show, and we had a gentleman come up to us in a wheelchair, and he wanted to know if he could try on the VR headset. And we said absolutely, and he did. And as he was in the experience, he became very emotional to the point where when he took the headset off, he had tears rolling down his face. And he said, "This is amazing. But unfortunately, I'm never going to get a chance to do this," because of his infirmity. But the amazing thing was is that the director of tourism was right there and he said, "Well, you know what? My team and Barbuda is handicap friendly. Let's talk about how we can help you out in this regard."

And I mean, that kind of relationship is amazing to see, and to see it turn into this prosperity on both sides. We see those experiences all the time, and they're amazing to see. And it will be a small matter of time before you're in the headset, you click the resort you want, and you booked your room. I'm sure that capability is already there. I just don't know if it's being implemented and being accepted by the industry yet.

Julie: That's an amazing story. I think both captivating somebody's heart to be able to miss or love something not much. And then also for the ability of that director of tourism to step in and offer a solution that he thought maybe was not possible for him.

Jason: And we've got all kinds of stories. I mean, we had a travel agent who said, "I use VR with my clients all the time. And I've had people put their credit card down and say, I want the room that I just saw." From our perspective, that's what we want to hear, because that validates the work that we do. But it just kind of shows the power that this medium has.

Julie: Absolutely. So, now from a hotel or a tourism location perspective, what do you think are the top key considerations for them to begin using 360 formats in their sales processes? What do you think that they should do first?

Jason: I think first and foremost, I think they need to take some time to kind of study out what the medium is. We've had a lot of pushback over the years on certain things. They thought it was a fad, or they thought it was not something worthwhile. They didn't see the difference between it. I have some crazy stories on that. I had someone hire me for-- they paid me $10,000 to do a tour of their facility, and then they didn't know how it worked at the end. They said, "Why does this look so funny?" And I said, "Well, you need to move your foot around when you look at it." And they were like, "Ohhh, look at that!" And I'm like, "You just commissioned me to do this!"

There's a fundamental level of education that I think any travel supplier needs to engage in. They need to understand the product. You need to understand how it benefits their bottom line. They need to understand how it's going to bring a better experience to their customer. And when they're able to do that, they'll have a greater appreciation for it and then they'll be invested in it. Because the last thing I want is for someone to hire me to do it, and then not really care that I've done it. It's about bringing something unique to the user. And that's what is going to set travel suppliers apart, especially in this future. They need to be able to tell people what it is that makes them different and why people should travel there. And this is -- in my mind -- one of the best mediums to do it, because you are getting there as close to that destination as possible without actually being there. It is a fantastic tool for inspiration.

Julie: Well, I think that's a great way to end off this particular podcast session. Thank you so much, Jason, for joining me today.

Jason: My pleasure. My pleasure.

Julie: Thanks, everybody, for listening. My name is Julie Smithson, and this is the XR for Learning podcast. Thanks, everyone.

It’s a blessing that XR technologies exist to help kids continue to learn through the COVID-19 pandemic. But if we just treat the tech as a delivery system for classroom homework, we’re doing students a disservice. Education consultant Sam Nulf explains why.

Julie: Hello, my name is Julie Smithson, and I am your XR for Learning podcast host. I look forward to bringing you insight into changing the way that we learn and teach using XR technologies to explore, enhance, and individualize learning for everyone. Today, my guest, Sam Nulf, has 15 years experience on instructional design in learning and development for enterprise and education. He's worked both internationally and in Toronto, Canada, as an educator and administrator. Sam has been a guest speaker on conferences speaking about 21st century learning and strategies for reimagining the curriculum. He co-authored the Inquiry Framework Tool, a guide for implementing inquiry based learning into the classroom, and has consulted with organizations on their curriculum and learning programs. Sam is currently working at the VR and AR Space, marrying his two passions, innovation and learning. Thanks for joining me today, Sam.

Sam: My pleasure. Nice to be here, Julie.

Julie: Great, great. So please tell me a little bit more about your passion, your vision. We talked right before we started recording here today, about when we decided we were going to record; it was pre-COVID and this isolation that's going on right now for everyone, and how education and learning from home has impacted everyone. And I'd love for you to just take off in a conversation with me, about how we're going to adjust learning from home, and what you're seeing from your perspective and your experience.

Sam: [laughs] That's a really big question. I'll try and break it down.

Julie: Absolutely, absolutely. How are we going to fix this problem? [laughs]

Sam: Right, right. Let's just first maybe touch on what I perceived to be the climate out there. I think there's been some reporting in the news channels about some dissatisfaction and frustration from parents, with how the roll-out of the learning programs through the use of technology has gone. And that frustration, I think it generally revolves around a gap in understanding for parents. Parents need a little more support in how to help their children at home. I think there needs to be-- that bridge between the institution of education and parents needs to be supported and built out a bit more. And then that will inform how robust the learning can be with what's being pushed out. It seems that the tool -- if we're talking about technology as a tool -- hasn't quite been used to its full potential. It's more sort of like a delivery service for the checklist of items that parents have to do. And the board will call it learning. "You do this, you do this, you do this, and your child is learning." But there's an opportunity that's been missed, to make the learning really rich. And that is one part technology, but it's another part, the instructional design piece or the pedagogy. Rethinking how to how to teach. And there has been some big conversations about inquiry based learning or problem based learning and 21st century competencies, that sort of are amplified with that type of instruction. So I think there's still some work to do.

Julie: Yeah, just a story I've heard this week about a very frustrated teacher who has put a lot of pressure on the parent, for not engaging their child at home enough with the remote teacher. So, first of all, the frustration of the teacher not having the parents sit there by the student and say, you have to do your work, get onto the computer and you have to talk to this teacher. But then when that computer disconnects, the learning should not stop. And the only person that's there is the parent, to-- I do want to say force, because we don't want to force kids to learn. We want to encourage them to learn. And this is something that I think where the government and our systems need to support parents on how to encourage your child to learn, how to teach them to learn, to *love* to learn. And this is something I've been saying for a long time. Kids, they you don't get up every day and go, "Oh wow, I get to go to school today!" They get up and say, "Ugh, I have to go to school today."

Sam: Yeah.

Julie: We need to change that. And I think that's how we'll deliver the biggest impact. So there needs to be a movement on how to encourage parents to be the biggest supporters and the biggest mentors in their kids lives, to encourage what they're interested in so they can follow their passions. And yes, the curriculum needs to be delivered. "Checkbox here, here and here, and they got this passing grade. Great." The essentials do need to be taught. But this is certainly a time to inspire passion in your kids, and help them with the littlest things that we'll discover what they like to learn the most.

Sam: For sure. And look, our children, they are naturally curious animals. And we have to leverage that impulse to explore and question. There's been some great research done from the University of Toronto faculty of education education, Dr. Marlene Scardamalia -- difficulty pronouncing your last name -- but she's actually published a lot of work around knowledge building and natural curiosity. And there's a way to leverage that and get really rich learning. It shouldn't be a chore. It can be exciting. And we have to sort of fulfill that curiosity quotient. For me personally, when we talk about the innovations around instructional design and best practices for teaching and learning, I prefer to sort of anchor it in real life problem solving to really leverage student interest and explore what they're curious about. They take the lead on this, and it's our job as parents and teachers to sculpt the learning trajectory, so that we teach them how to be independent learners. Because eventually they're going to be out in the world on their own, get curious about something. And if we provide a roadmap of learning, a framework, they'll be able to do it on their own. And if we're in the digital age right now, we have to start a conversation about, well, what are the best tools for the job?

Julie: Absolutely. And there are so many of them out there. And we all know that Google is right there to ask any question. You can now just say it out loud, and I'm sure, my Google system here will perk up its ears and say, "Okay, I'm ready." That's where teaching has to change, because we can't provide questions that the kids can just immediately go to Google and get them to answer it, or just copy and paste from the Internet. We need to spur up a different type of thought process that stirs the ability to come up with solutions and curiosity and conversation.

Sam: No, absolutely. And there are really valuable question matrixes, open versus closed question, the different sort of cognitive things that are happening in the brain. You want to take your children and learners into an area where they can apply the knowledge that they've got to new contexts and situations, and provide them with the skills so that they can be creative problem solvers and ultimately create something new. So there's a taxonomy, there's a hierarchy of critical thinking and questioning that are good anchors out there. And unfortunately, it's just-- it's an awareness thing. That's what teachers learned to do. But now I think parents have to be aware of this type of understanding also.

Julie: Absolutely. It's interesting, because this came up over the last couple of days. My kids have been doing extremely well for what they're doing, and even working on projects with Michael McDonald in virtual reality in Altspace and Educators In VR hosting and learning about a three dimensional learning, which kind of takes it to that next level. But one of the speakers who is featured on Educators In VR, Tim Jackson, hosted an event the other day and had some of his students on stage with him. And he's a professor in the town of Kent in the UK, and he stirred up the questions. And these were very interesting, because I brought them into my household. And this is something that maybe everybody should do, as I said. And this was led by something that he talked about, was discussing with the kids. Why are they here? My younger one went, "What do you mean? I'm eating breakfast, right?" And I said, "No, why are you here on this earth? What are you doing here? And what are you going to do to contribute as a human on this earth? What are your interests going to be in?" And when I asked my older daughter, she turned around. "Oh," she said. "That's a really good question. I need to figure that out." And that's a good place to start. Are we a consumer or a contributor? And stirring these questions -- like you said -- that stir curiosity, an answer that must be projected from them. And come from them.

Sam: Yeah, agreed. And we shouldn't be afraid of those big questions. Children will surprise you with their capacity and potential to be reflective, and engaging in those rich conversations is probably the most valuable learning you'll get.

Julie: And I think that kids are not taken-- their voice is not taken into consideration soon enough. And I'm not saying at 18 years old, by the time they're adults, when most kids at the age of 10 have experience -- well, they've already experienced 10 years of experience in their life -- that they should have a voice going into their teens. That's obviously a very big question and purpose to have the voice of youth spoken out. But they're very smart and they are ready to engage, and this digital era that we're in right now is speeding that process up. And we need to listen to them more. And I listen to my kids every day. I talk to them about what they learned, while I was busy on calls with people like you, and learning about everything to do with XR, but feeding off our kids and what they're learning and how they're interacting has been the biggest learning component for myself. And I encourage everybody to do the same.

Sam: Well, you bring up a really interesting point. I think it is important to explore, for both parents and developers in enterprise and tech and everything. A friend of mine at the Ministry of Education put it succinctly: he seemed to think this is the first time -- if we put it into a historical context -- that our learning institutions are playing catch up with society. I think in the past, they've actually been leading ahead and that we will provide you with the skills that you need to enter the world. All of a sudden it's just been flipped on its head. And now the institution of learning is playing catch up to the speed of change that's happening. And that's never happened before. And so we have to really rethink how we approach learning. And then the conversations sort of get into this 21st century approach to learning, and we get into conversations around the global competencies: how do we assess and evaluate learning, the different types of learning, different types of assessment practices? And there's not this sort of the knowledge piece necessarily that's valued. This isn't an either-or conversation, but it's a shift in perspective or emphasis that we're now going onto more process based skills and soft skills of learning, that become more important as we use technology as the tool.

Julie: And individualized, right? So this is where the individual learning-- everybody should have their own individual learning path, that is created through passion and curiosity. And this is where the education systems do need to shift, that everybody learns at their own pace. It's not necessarily a group setting in being forced by age. And that's how it's always been before. We can go on to different conversations about when kids are born earlier in the year, compared to later in the year, there's all sorts of different avenues there. But I know personally, my twelve year old is moving at a different pace than several other kids in her class, and she should have the ability to explore more. But she is currently stuck in that grade six box that every other kid that is in grade six is in. Educators need to learn how to open that box up, open up the pass for the kids who are able to learn faster, so they can explore. And if not, they get stuck in tick-tock daze, trying to entertain themselves. And that's the ultimate threat right now, is that if the systems don't provide tools where they can explore the curiosity, and the teachers are ready and prepared to feed them and guide them. This is where teachers will turn into mentors of knowledge, because if that student doesn't feel like that teacher knows enough about what that student is curious enough about, they will disregard them, disrespect their learning leadership.

Sam: Yeah, that's a whole rabbit hole. [laughs]

Julie: We'll have another podcast on that one. We've got a lot of really good subjects here.

Sam: Yeah, that's for sure.

Julie: There's a lot to work on. There's a lot to fix. There's a lot to build. And education systems -- circling back to that -- supporting parents and families right now with tools, apps, methods, and questions to sit around the dining room table and talk about these big questions that we talked about today. One of the things that I shared with my Facebook friends and family was, my kids actually do a spelling test with their Nana every day. And I feed the words. I make sure that my mom has the level that both of them can handle. Number one, the kids are learning spelling. Number two, kids have a bonding time with their parents. And every day they connect with them just on FaceTime. "Okay, Nana, ready for our test?" 15-20 minutes of chat brings a delight to obviously my mother's day. But the kids are learning constantly every day, and it's instilling these little bits and pieces in their day, that become a routine and are different from the norm of going to school. Is there anything that you do with your daughter right now, Sam, that enhances her learning?

Sam: Sure. And, you know, I'm in a very privileged position, to be an educator and learner, so I'm pretty attentive to what her learning needs are. I think you brought up something that is often overlooked, and that's the sort of social-emotional aspect of learning, that spending that time with your child without distraction, that you are present in the moment and that you were working on something together. And there's a lot of research out there that where you're literally hardwiring the relationship to your child. And a teacher who I respect very much -- and she spent a career in special education with young children with special needs -- gave me probably the best advice I've ever had in my career as an educator. She said, "You love them first, and the learning will come." And that is often put aside, because we feel a pressure to get those checkboxes, to meet the demand, to get the report cards out, and prove that they've learned something to someone. And that can wait. That will come.

Julie: Yeah.

Sam: That's what I lead with, anyway. I lead with the curiosity, and the learning will come.

Julie: The best part is, is that you can bond with your child during this time. And I think there's so much pressure on the parents that they need to make sure that they prioritize that in the relationship with their kid, to establish a path of the success, for them and for you as a parent.

Sam: Well said.

Julie: Thank you so much, Sam, for joining me today. I really appreciate this. And why don't we finish off with the last tidbit from you. What is your final learning lesson for our listeners today?

Sam: If I was to choose one, I would say ask your kid what interests them, what they like doing, and run with that and explore all the different angles that have to do with that thing. The learning will be more relevant and real. It'll be more rigorous. They'll retain more. They'll remember more. And you'll find, I think, that they become more resilient. They'll work harder to overcome the barriers if you lead with the things that they enjoy.

Julie: Thank you so much. Thanks for joining me today, Sam.

Sam: Nice speaking with you.

Julie: Yeah. Thanks. This is Julie Smithson, and this is your XR for Learning podcast. Thanks for listening, everyone. Take care.