In this episode Beth, Lee, and Dan are in the studio and talk about the skills and hiring trends that they see.  

Digital Pulse 2022 (acs.org.au)

This podcast is produced by Microsoft Australia & New Zealand employees, Lee Hickin, Dan Bowen, and Beth Worrall. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are our own.

 

________________________________________

TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 7

This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections.

 

 

Hi everybody. Welcome to the AI podcast. How are you doing, Lee and Beth? Yeah, really, really well. Actually, guys, I'm a year older since we last met. So, it was my birthday this week, just a few days ago. Happy We all sing happy birthday now. Is that what we do, Dan? Do we? H. No, let's not do that. There comes a point where you stop doing that, don't you? You stop singing happy birthday. Is that right? Well, actually, you say that I um I actually had to to be up in Brisbane for a a work offsite on my birthday. And not only did the team sing happy birthday to me, they did it twice. Um that the second time was in a restaurant in front of a whole pile of people. So, um I I do feel like um I've done my dash with birthday songs this year, but it was it was actually a really great birthday. Last this time last year, I was in isol Um, so you know, onwards and upwards, I think. Well, I it was birthdays. I I I had one of those big milestones, you know, the really really big ones, but I was in isolation. Yeah. I wish 30th, right? 30 30 years ago kind of thing. No, not quite for that, but uh but it was a big birthday, but yes, I was stuck in isolation. And, you know, I'm sure that's been the case for a lot of people that, you know, we laugh about the not singing, but it you know, it's important to celebrate and it was hard in in co. So, I'm glad you got to go and do something better and finally get out and and meet the team, I guess, up in was it the Brisbane? Did you say you went to? Yes. Yes. And you know, um it's it's funny because it's amazing to be able to meet people face to face after spending two and two plus years just staring at their face on a screen. And um and I think we've had this conversation before. You know, it does remind me how short I actually am when I meet people face to face and I realize I'm taller than everyone else in Melbourne yesterday and and I said, you know, some of them Some people didn't even realize I was Welsh. Some people didn't realize that I was 6'4 in joke. But um uh you know in Jess but yeah that that happens that happens also in social media as well. Just just audiences uh audiences sake. Dan is not 6'4 by the way. I can assure you of that. But he's definitely Welsh. I can't say anyone would not have spotted that. Dan uh as as you know my son saw you present at an event once and I said did he said it uh he had an interesting accent and I said do you know where he's from? And he said Welsh. So you stand out. found out in the crowd, my friend. Fantastic. I um I have a lot of Welsh friends, Dan, so I can I can pivot to to Welsh in um in under a second. And I've got to say, I know your accent so well that I even read your tweets in my mind in a Welsh accent. And there that's that's a action, right? In your own mind. Yeah, that's brilliant. So today's episode um we're going to look at some some of the kind of poignant things which are in people's minds at the minute. based on what we've been having conversations with, you know, in in the tech community in in our kind of social uh platforms that that we utilize and and try to bring some of those together. And the focus today is going to be around skilling, but also in the lens that we've just come out of co so everybody's in a degree of flex. There's a lot of change happening and what we thought was going to happen to say around technology is that some projects might go into the back burner, but actually what's happened is accelerated a lot of the projects that people might have wanted to be doing like AI and data projects, people migrating to the cloud which has meant that as well as uh dealing with the pandemic, people are also now putting a different lens on skilling. So in the last couple of years in my role as a technology strategist, the skilling conversation was almost like an afterthought. Whereas now people are pushing projects on so quickly that they're actually having really deep discussions about how they manage their team, what kind of roles they're going to recruit, for what kind of roles they actually even have anymore, you know, because some of the IT leaders are now also custodians of well-being in some places. So, you know, they they they pushing out say some of the Microsoft products like Viva and things where it's giving employees insights into their uh you know, daily work habits and things and and they're giving employees devices now for hybrid work. So, they they kind of starting to develop policies to do with HR. So, HR and IT are developing these hybrid working policy And and I suppose the words that are coming in as well with skill in which is which is quite confusing really because skilling sometimes in the purest form is you're a technologist you do these exams and you're doing this. Um but then you've also got your kind of generalist kind of roles where where you might be managing people as well. But then also you've got this lens of the employee experience. So thinking about when you are you know recruiting for the new world and the new skills and the new jobs you're also thinking Well, how do I recruit for people from multiple backgrounds from, you know, uh, people with autism, ADHD, different areas in that area. I know Beth, you've done a heap of work around this, you know, from people being reskilled out of other industries and then also how we think about, you know, retention and recruitment of staff as well. So, there's a lot here to unpack and we'll just talk about this generally and and with our own lenses uh to see where we go and and hopefully the listeners will have a bit of insight into where we're thinking just from our relationships and our customers and people in technology. Does that sound good? Sounds good to me. Good to me. Fantastic. So, can I kick off then? I know I've talked a little bit here, but I'll just kick off with the IT lens. Um, you know, I'm a technology strategist working with the IT teams in in schools and and uh other accounts that I'm working with outside education as well. And when I'm speaking to the IT teams, um, they are now really keen like I said at the of what are the roles uh what are the roles that Microsoft's recruiting for you know and it'll be interesting to have your lens on that Lee because you see this across a lot of lot of areas but you know I've seen in my uh you know particular experience that people are now recruiting in education for uh data scientists information architects security uh folks because I think what's the hybrid world has done is pushed three mega trends I suppose cloud more AI and data more and security is becoming prevalent. So they're looking for well what courses do I need to do? Who am I supposed to be hiring for in that kind of area, you know, and and so that's one element. And then on the second side of it, they're also asking me, well, how do we retain and recruit those people and how do we keep being mindful of the employee experience for us? So how do we make sure that people's well-being are catered for? Um because we want to, you know, employ and also give the staff the best experience around this. How do we connect? How do we focus? And how do we empower everybody to achieve more with the skills they got? So, so I'm seeing quite a lot of uh lots of different signals coming from IT teams um from a skilling point of view and from that empowering um the employee experience. So, so Lee, what are your thoughts on that? Well, I think my first thought is Dan is you have obviously had like 16 cups of coffee this morning because that was a uh that was a a mammoth introduction. Lots and lots of words to unpack there. But look, let me and I wanted to pick up on a couple of things. as you said, I'm trying to pick my way back through it all, but um you know, one of the key things for me is you talk about, you know, people asking these questions about what skills do they need to be investing in and what take, you know, what kind of where what areas of technology almost should they become specializing. You talk about things like AI and machine learning and data science. And I'm certainly not going to discredit the fact that being a specialist in some of those areas is going to be not valuable. Of course, it's super valuable and there's a wealth of opportunity out there for people like that. But I think it's also important to recognize that those are they they're sort of the careers in themselves. I mean they're life journeys that you don't just sort of go and do a course and say right now I'm a I'm an AI specialist. And I think we'd all appreciate that you you kind of there's an ongoing lot of learning to be done there. But what I'm actually personally seeing when I talk to and I I don't probably interview as many people as you do, but I certainly speak to a lot of people young in career or in jobs looking to think about how they transition into their industry. And I'm finding that as technology becomes so rich, deep, and complex and all-encompassing. You know, technology is no longer a thing that is constrained to the tech industry. Every industry is technical. Uh, every part of our lives relies on technology. And now, technology is starting to weave its way into every facet of what we do. Yeah. And I'm starting to find that actually the skills that we need to be hiring for, and I think, and I might throw to Beth in a minute because this plays to some of those work we've done around thinking about neurodeiverse hiring, is we actually want people that can an analyze problems in really interesting unique ways who people who can be dealing with a vacuum of information but still be comfortable and willing to work through a problem or work through a scenario. So the technology piece of it you know hey I know how to use Azure well hey I know how to be a data scientist well they're almost I would say it sounds terrible nice to haves but when you've got people that can can adapt to a scenario listen to a problem and then ask intelligent questions so you know, it comes down to some really basic skills for me, which is, you know, communication, listening, uh, understanding, and I don't know how you frame that as a skill. Probably you guys are better at framing that, but it's that idea of just being able to take in a bunch of information and think it through. I think that's really when I think about the skills, there's there's things that you need to be able to do, but those are the skills that are the core of it. Beth, you know, when I I threw you to that sort of neurodyiverse hiring piece because I know you know a bit about it, but maybe you want to talk about how does that factor into that thinking when we think about these kinds of non-technical product skills but more capabil soft skills as I think they used to be called. Yeah. So I I think there's a move to um uh to to move away from talking about it as a soft skill and more you know empowering skills or skills that are at the core of what you need to have as a technology uh professional. And interestingly you know I think we we hear a lot from the technology industry and many of our partners customers around the need for more people to to come into the industry and um and and certainly more people from diverse backgrounds with different lived experiences and different ways of tackling the the problem. And as we you part of that solution will be young people coming out of university computer science um and similar kinds of courses. But increasingly our partners and customers are actually recruiting people from a heap of different backgrounds with perhaps very little previous IT experience or recent qualifications from boot camps and other types of um other types of courses. So um and those types of people are being hired on the basis of their you know quote unquote soft skills. So as you're saying it is communication but things like uh an ability to collaborate with others and you know that recognition that um often working in the IT industry is is um a a team effort and you know being able to work with teams of people especially if you're working remotely or working with teams of people from across the world you know that people with that type of experience um are in high demand. I think also your your kind of point around being able to comprehend it's almost like sitting with ambiguity as well. Being able to move through because and and and and perhaps underpinning all of this is a commitment to ongoing learning and a natural curiosity, problem solving that some of those types of skills because I think, as you alluded to, the technology industry is so rich and complex and every time you think you understand what's going on, you're out of date because the industry is moving so quickly. That sounds like my life. Yes. Out of date. Okay. It feels like it it sounds Sounds like my budgeting actually my personal finance. But you know I think being able to be comfortable in an environment that is constantly changing and being comfortable with um you or being motivated by seeking to learn and seeking to solve a problem I think is is what um increasingly customers and partners are looking for and and they I've had lots of conversations including with you know major companies who looking to hire hundreds of people and they're just literally hiring on the basis of a aptitude or sorry of attitude and and they will hire people once they find them. So that they are hiring people who are coming into the IT industry with you know business management experience or project management experience or perhaps people management. Um they're hiring chemists, psychologists, retail workers, baristas, you know, you name it, they they they are finding talent all over the the place and you know, from some diverse communities of well as well. So, um working with disability employment agencies or agencies that support women returning to the the workforce after a career break and then of course um uh people coming out of the the Australian Defense Force. So, you know, these these are people who have a rich set of different experience and a lot to share. from the perspective of those types of experiences and once they're in the job they can learn the IT skills necessary to do the job but it's recognition that there's a lot of other skills that that we need as an industry and I think that's that's a the tangible thing I've always wrangled this because this is something I've always advocated for and I'm a total advocate for this the problem solving collaboration but I think I don't know if it really lands if I'm honest you know when when when we speak into when I'm speaking to kids and stuff like that and you know teachers are saying it to everybody you know it's about the collaboration and everything but then it's really hard I think you hit the nail on the head there it's about valuing those skills and making them tangible in some way so the way you articulated there was a little bit of a light bulb moment for me as well because then you can think well actually I do have value from career X whether I'm a chemist or a or somebody from the military because I've got these particular experiences of managing people for example because when we talking to kids about it we almost it almost feels like they they're a bit lost it feels as if we dumb it down a bit because we saying it's about problem solving and they're asking me do I need to learn Python do I need to learn this and those conversations are really important because yes they actually sometimes do and we don't want to just dilute it with maybe more important skills which are really hard to teach like the ones you just mentioned there about collaboration and the like it's it's it's a it's a tricky one and I always kind of um I struggled with the way we kind of pitch pitch the kind of softer skills. It's a really really interesting challenge. I was at a an event in Sydney um speaking on on um as part of a panel and one of the the points that really stuck with me was from a school principal in um in Sydney who uh manages a boy school and one of the things that he pointed out was that you you the IT industry and and many industries repeatedly say how important it is to uh to hire and develop people's teamwork, your collaboration skills and communication skills. Yet our um high school education is is uh measured or and young people measured on the impact of the individual marks that they can get. Yeah. By themselves and um you know Perhaps there are some exceptions here and there, but it did make me think a lot about, you know, how does a young person acquire those types of skills when high school isn't going to give it to you. But the one thing I would say, Dan, to to um young people who are interested in a career in IT is to just look for any kind of practical work experience that you can get. So I started my um working life as a um a checkout operator at Wworth's where I um after several years I moved into I was promoted into the hot chickens um area and and and so you know that experience wasn't necessarily you some of those transferable skills were were what I learned new customer service working to a deadline that was you know certainly teamwork communication all of those things am I cooking hot chickens in my current job unfortunately not not um but I you know potatoes perhaps in your hand but I you know it's it's getting those skills um and and actually learning it through applied through that lived experience is perhaps the most valuable and one thing we hear from partners and customers is that a lot of young people are even still coming out of university and still tricky to hire because they've got no practical work experience. um at all. So, you know, just even having like a part-time part-time job is better than nothing. So, I'm I'm this is a lived experience for me right now, Beth. My my son is heading into year 11 and so we're going through the process of deciding what you know what ostensibly might appear to a high school student as the decisions that will decide the rest of your life. You know, here are the the eight subjects you're going to choose that that determine your ATR, that determine your career and all that. And at the same time, we've just done his first resume cuz he's looking for jobs and you know going to get a job and it's really interesting to see it through the lens of someone of that age and their perceptions I say to him you know do you want to do be in IT like dad or do you want to do this and their pre-built perceptions even at that age of what it means to be in the IT industry oh you've got to be a coder you got to be a software developer oh you need to write code and I don't I don't want to sit in front of a computer all day you know or oh I want to be a doctor oh I want to be one of his friends wants to be a physiootherapist you know and he's like uh but means I got to, you know, deal with people and this that and the other and they're just they have this sort of boxed view of these things, right? Um but I couldn't agree more and the reason why we're getting his resume out to go and get a job at Wworth or Bunnings or Harris Farm wherever, you know, he kind of gets it out there to is just to learn how to talk to people, transact with people, deal with deal with a situation where actually it's not going to go your way. Sorry. You know, you're just going to have to deal with what it is. I think those are those resiliency skills. And that was the word I was trying to think of earlier. Resiliency is probably the greatest skill in particularly in the world we live in today regardless of the tech industry even it's just the world is a unfortunately a a challenging place to to thrive in you know in in in any place and so resiliency becomes your key to happiness almost in some ways and and do you think do you think that co has actually had an impact on that because when I'm speaking to young people at the minute you know my own kids and my partner's kids and things like that you know the expectations lots of people are now I think co's reset them and they're thinking more in terms of you know what I want to work for myself more I want to spend more time at home they're working the hybrid I've seen how mom or dad or uncle or auntie has been working from home spending more time with me I like that you know I I think it's resetting and that was the that was the lens that I put right at the beginning there around this employee experience I think there's two things one people one is people like uh our age might be thinking, well, I now want to reset work's expectations of me and my expectations of what I'm doing in work, which is a great conversation to have, but then also people coming into the workforce are are expecting differently. And we will in next episode, I think based on the conversations here, we will interview some interns in the next episode to see if our expectations and and thoughts here are the, you know, are similar to theirs. But I I do think that they've reset their expectations and and rightly. You know, one of my sons is uh uh working in a as a washing dishes in a local Italian restaurant. Um and uh they both do sport refereeing. So, this year has been a bit of an epiphany for me because rather than driving them to sport and driving them to work and they're getting paid to do basketball refereeing and hockey refereeing and I know and Tom's going to his um uh kind of restaurant that he's working at. So, it's it's different expectations that they having and I think they're getting in some of the experiences to take your point as well uh Beth from varied areas as well. So do you think do you think it's it is changing isn't it co's definitely changed people's expectations it's you know I think I think that's definitely true Dan and you we were talking about this in over the last few days around how co has changed the ways in which government work forces have have worked And perhaps historically um you know the tech industry has been an early adopter of people working remotely and working from home and and so I you know for me co really didn't change that much if anything um because everyone was working remotely. It was almost better for me because everyone was joining remote as opposed to me um joining remote from Adelaide where it was a group of people in Sydney um having a chat and and I felt a little bit kind of excluded from from some of that. So co for me was a great leveler. Um and the but the tech industry has been working remotely for years and years and years. And so what I think has changed um is that that way of working has been more widely adopted across sectors that were historically more risk adverse and less willing to change. And you it's challenged a lot of the expectations around um presenteeism and you know if you are seen in the office then people assume you're working versus being you know accountable for what you actually deliver for me I think that's that's also very empowering thing as an employee that I am trusted to deliver um my you against roles and my uh responsibilities and objectives and I'm you know it's not about how many hours I'm sitting in front of a laptop. Um, and young people are definitely looking at that and um, and I think you people in the current workforce and young people as well are going to be um, more able to dictate the terms of your their expectations and and employers will have to you if they want the best talent and if they want to retain the best talent then they will have to um, you manage their system. accordingly. And if you think about the future of the industries that we have here um in Australia but around the world and a lot of the wealthy companies now are knowledge based uh companies that rely on smart people you that is that is going to be the way that people um will expect to be working and I I've been watching even uh trials around the world where they're looking at 4 day weeks um and you know, the the the better work life balance that you get from being able to be flexible is is one thing, but then perhaps it will even move into more accommodations around um part-time work or 4 day weeks and and that's exciting, I think, for lots of parents. Um so, you guys both have uh much older children. So, my daughter's only seven and and I found um you working from home is so much better just to try and balance all the things that you need to accommodate as a parent and and perhaps moving towards these more flexible ways of working will also create opportunities for people who would have otherwise been excluded from uh a more rigid workplace which expected you to be there from you know 8 till 6 or something. I wonder Beth, it's a really good point and on the location thing you know obviously yes for you it was that opportunity to be more included because you're no longer kind of required to be in Sydney but you're still in a capital city and I think there's still a you know there's a I wonder if the question is is this message now reaching our regional areas outside of capital cities that they could be included and I I know that something you talked about when we spoke off offline before the the podcast around the um the digital pulse report from the ACS which talks a bit about some of these challenges of uh location proportionality you know where we bring these people in um I don't know if you've got any thoughts on that because I think that's also really an untapped opportunity is the people that aren't in the It is so true, Lee. And you know, I've had lots of interesting conversations with government agencies who are looking at this as an opportunity to locate some of their offices outside of some of our bigger cities. And again, that's the recognition that there needs to be physical loca physically located offices to to tap into regional talent pools. But, you know, you look at companies like Atlassian um who say, you know, work from anywhere. Literally, as long as you've got a computer and internet access, you can you can do your job. And there's lots I was having a conversation about this with some colleagues. Um, you know, has has co unlocked a lot of opportunities for people to move into regional towns and I know some of our colleagues have moved to places like Ely Beach and Byron Bay and um, uh, regional Western Australia. We've got people who um are located now in Darwin. Um you this is this is such a good opportunity for regional centers to uh to to promote their lifestyle and and it's as much not just the people like you say that that are choosing to move because suddenly I'm flexible enough and I want to make that you know sea change or or or whatever green change but I'm thinking more about actually young kids growing up in the bush who today see their future being really tied to the bush and the family and it you know, it's a it's a real world life experience for them is that it's hard for them to see beyond that. How do we get how does how does the tech industry get into the ears and into the minds of those kids so that they feel like, you know, hey, I could be a part of that. And I'm not suggesting we have the answer, but to me, I think that's one of those real opportunities. I agree. Um, you know, and the first minute we have a an office set up in the Hunter Valley, I'm I'm moving there. Of course, it's exactly where I want to work from. Um, oh, no, actually, I'll come down to you, Beth, in Adelaide. I think that's the best one. Exactly. Yeah, I think we might have just started a fight there, but yes, sorry. Go on. It is it is it is interesting, isn't it? There's going to be this balance between fluidity in in the workforce and also rigidity because we we caught up before this podcast and it was very clear from all of us that we've been meeting customers face to face recently and I think companies are going to be wrangling with this around employee experience, hybrid work. You know, we we all going to need some level of autonomy but a degree as well of rigidity because the best things happen when we all work together and we all come together and and co's helped us in so many ways by working remotely and in hybrid and giving us a great experience probably be well better for the families and things like that but also you know has had negative effects as well um but also the fact is we haven't been working with our colleagues as as much we haven't had as much um connections side water the cooler chats uh and and which develops a lot of innovation and and insight. You know, we'll be on a call and we talking about the podcast and then we'll jump off and we haven't talked about, you know, how things are going and where opportunities are and at lunch or anything like that. So, there's this balance and I think when we if we bring it back to skilling as well, you know, I think I think we're never going to answer the the well-being and employee experience questions, I suppose, and the questions that we've posed today, but people need to be thinking about those. But then when we start to go back down into thinking well what are the skills the the people you you were seeing Lee and and you were seeing Beth in in your customers and in conversations around Australia and globally. What are the skills then to kind of bring us all back together? What are the skills that people are kind of looking for most at the minute? So people listening to the podcast can go okay you know I know work's changing. I know I can work from anywhere. I know my expectations are changing but if I do have to get to the nitty-gritty. What what things should I be looking at, you know, tangibly? Um, what do you think, Lee? What are the kind of big trends for you? Um, so it's and it's not a copout answer, but it's maybe some think of a copout answer, but I I've just seen it time and time again that the most powerful skill anyone ever has in the room in a any situation, whether it be work, play, life, school, anything else, is the ability to communicate. And that I don't mean communicate as in talk and talk, you know, with all the best fancy words you've ever thought of. But communication, as you both know, is that kind of that art of it's a two-way thing. It's the art of listening and communicating. And I just see so much of the need for people that can listen, interpret, adapt, and then engage around a particular scenario. And yes, if they've got a particular product skill or they've got some experience in some industry or some, you know, work experience they've done that's taught how to do something XY Z. That that's proven that they've learned how to learn. I always say to my kids, actually, now you got me on this idea. You know, you go to school to learn stuff. You go to a university to learn a specialist, but that whole process is learning how to learn and grow. You then go into the real world and use that ability to learn to actually develop, you know, skills and capability. Um, and so, yeah, to me, it's just, you know, I if you can communicate to people, listen, act, and all those things I said, you can pretty much do anything. and and you know and everyone assumes they can communicate but actually when you see real communication in action and we've all seen it in various you know people we've seen it's it's a joy to behold somebody that can actually hold a room and a conversation and and bring everybody into that conversation not just be the sole voice you know all those things I know that's for me so so tangibility and I'll go to you in a second Beth but just to unpick that a little bit you know when we thinking about because I love that analogy but when we thinking about that for the people listening into the podcast today Okay. I suppose what they can do to evidence that if they're in whatever age they are, whatever career they're in, it's about being able to uh maybe publish articles on LinkedIn, maybe video uh a video themselves doing something, you know, showing that they can articulate a particular point. So when you're hiring, you see that and go, okay, Dan's done a presentation at wherever it's on YouTube or Beth's done a blog post about a particular device that's come out or work skilling in LinkedIn. And you can see that people are communicating. They've got a point of view. Is that would you say I'll give you that and then I'll let Beth talk. I when I'm hiring people dirty secret I don't actually read their resume very often. I mean I might look at it brief quickly. When I'm hiring someone I look up their name and I go look across a range of platforms. YouTube, LinkedIn typically because I'm looking at work people but other places. I'm not really interested in their social media plat profile. Of course that can be more important these days. But I want to go and see what do they talk about, how they communicate, how visible are they? Do they actively go out there and profer an opinion on things? That's what I look for. And and the resume is kind of a nice to have if it's great tip. Yeah. And for for you, Beth, what would you your thoughts be around this? Yeah. Look, I I I think it's really interesting to hear that perspectively and I agree with you to a large extent. But um as you're talking, I'm thinking gosh, how how would a young person compete when you know they've never had a platform to have a perspective or you know to demonstrate um you know or to write a big blog post about something. So for me I think it all comes down to attitude uh kind of overriding aptitude to a large extent and so an attitude towards um and a commitment towards continual growth and learning is perhaps the most important thing that um that I think would demonstrate some ability to be successful in the IT industry. But that that sort of ongoing commitment to self-growth and that concept of growth mindset I think is also an incredibly important how would they evidence that Beth? Yeah. So, so for me I think and if we were looking at this from a traineehship perspective Dan you know some of the things that I think we we look for is uh a an ability to extend beyond just academic studies. So, so somebody that perhaps has a sporting commitment and might have volunteered as a coach or been, you know, part of the the organizing committee in some capacity. So, an ability to kind of extend beyond um beyond academic studies is is terrific. Um certainly anyone with some practical work experience is really um highly valued as well because we know that they have had some opportunity to communicate or to you know practice communication skills, engage with customers and have that kind of customer service mentality I think would be um one way of being able to evidence um some practical skills that would be really relevant in a workplace. But then you know there is such a proliferation of free training um available to to people and somebody who has undertaken you know a a couple of extra courses or they've completed, you know, some uh some of the free training that you can get from EdX and Corsera and um you know, there's lots of LinkedIn training now that is free. So, somebody who's really kind of looked into the um the ways in which they can learn more about a particular skill or particular thing and they've undertaken some ongoing learning. It demonstrates a commitment to professional and personal growth and a commitment to to lifelong learning and a curiosity as well. Um, but we we've had lots of applicants who've been able to demonstrate um or problem solving and things like that. You know, they might have participated in Lego championships or um you we have a lot of young people who doing gaming um now which um you but and and they've extended that into you know arranging clubs and events and things like that. So you can You know, I think there's lots of opportunities for young people to push themselves beyond their academic studies. And it's not to say, you know, I remember year 12 as highly stressful year. And you the other thing I would say to to people perhaps the most important thing is to you you're going to be working for a really long time. And the number one thing to do in in my book is to follow your passion. You know, find what you like and worry about the job. Because in all likelihood, young people coming out of school and and young people kind of entering the IT, entering the workforce now, they're likely to change jobs, you know, four or five times um at least. And there are so many things that you will learn along the way and so many opportunities to reinvent yourself. And this narrative around uh your final years of high school being able to dictate the rest of your life I think you're rubbish. You know, we've had lots and lots of young people through our traineeship program who frankly didn't even finish year 12 and and there's lots of reasons why that was the case. But um you life is going to be a continual journey of learning and if you can commit yourself to learning and be if you're motivated by personal growth, I think you know those are the types of people that we can accommodate. And that's some great examples cuz I think those ones are the tricky ones. to actually articulate. I will be devil's advocate with my kind of tip I suppose because I do agree with both of you and you know they're great answers but you know if you if people are looking for tangible things as well not that any of these aren't tangible because they are important but I I think there is an element of getting fundamental stuff done right as well. So if people are looking for real courses and things to do um which they might want to want to showcase you know looking at things like general capabilities on security and and cloud generally and and really thinking about some of those technologies that are kind of at the forefront. You know what I told um when I was speaking to a lot of IT teams, I spoke to 50 people the other day in one of the local like education authorities and um they were asking about some of the trends and I said, "Well, read the earnings reports of the big tech sector. If they're interested in technology, they should know where Google, Apple, Microsoft are making their money because then they can see where the trends are. You know, the earnings reports are really really clear. They they're very direct about where different companies are going and you can then put your bet if you're betting your career in technology. You can look at the the companies and go, well, okay, company X is betting on clouds, company B is betting on hardware, you know, and if you're interested in that, you can go this way. So, but I do think there's a fundamental layer like even our marketing executives in Microsoft need to do their Azure fundamentals, Microsoft 365 fundamentals, Dynamics fundamentals, Power platform fundamentals. So you you I'm going to get product specific but you know security cloud fundamentals um uh would be kind of the key pick for me. Maybe data AI fundamentals uh just so people have got a a base knowledge of some of those topics that are happening. So that would be my kind of tip as well. But I love your answers everybody. And tomorrow um we'll be doing another episode but it will it'll be released two weeks time. Sorry I I don't know what if I said tomorrow. Tomorrow is when we be recording it. But for next week, um, we'll be interviewing some interns, uh, to actually see if they are lived experiences correlate to what our thoughts are on on on this episode today. So, any closing remarks, uh, Lee or Beth, before we close the episode down? Oh, look, just a a shameless plug, Dan, actually. And just to your point around, you know, some of those fundamental skills, Microsoft actually has a bunch of really cool new and totally free divorces coming up in August. So, I've been waiting for the US to determine exactly which date, but I think um for anyone out there interested in a range of different IT and professional roles, these courses are going to be fantastic um to put on a CV and start from even kind of office basics and productivity basics. And so, um you this is this has been a long time coming and I think anyone out there who's looking to demonstrate uh some proficiency in some of the more basic skills and also look into um further education in these areas. I think you will have a lot to offer in that space in just a couple of weeks time. So fantastic watch this space. Yeah, we'll share the links and also some of the reports as well that you mentioned. I know there's the ACS report. There was a report from the tech council. There's a report from hybrid work that we've done making hybrid work work. So we put all of those in the show. notes as well. But thanks everybody for your time today and and we've skied on a lot of information there and thank you for bringing you uh lenses to uh such an important topic and let's keep the skilling conversation going. Awesome. Good to see you both. Thank you. Bye.