Your Adrenal Fix With Dr Joel Rosen

Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so they can get their health back quickly. And I’m really excited to be joined by our guest, Dr. Andrea Ferland. She is a senior scientist at the K I T Research Institute and a staff physician at the Toronto Rehab Institute. She specializes in focusing on treatments for chronic pain, including medications, complementary and alternative therapies, and rehabilitation.

And I really want to discuss her new book called The Eight Steps to Conquering chronic pain, a doctor’s Guide to lifelong relief. So, Andrea, Dr. Andrea, thank you so much for being here today.

Dr. Andrea Furlan:

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yes, yeah. And so I always start the podcast knowing about who we’re speaking about and why they got into their profession and maybe any health challenges or part reasons why you got into this area. So maybe you can elucidate why you are what you are. Give us some ideas.

Dr. Andrea Furlan: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so I graduated 30 years ago from medical school in Brazil, Sao Paulo, I then emigrated to Canada 25 years ago. And I’m a physician here and I work in the pain clinic. And all that I do is help people with chronic pain. But what got me into this, I can remember and it’s very vivid in my mind, because, first of all, I chose medicine because I suffered from menstrual cramps, all of my teenagers and young adults, and they were very debilitating, very severe, didn’t get better a lot with the conventional medications got better only after I got pregnant. It got cured after I got pregnant. But before that, they were very debilitating.

And every month I knew I was going to miss important things or had to go to exams and tests suffering pain. So I chose medicine to help people because I thought you know that there must be something to treat this healthiness. And then when I was in medical school, I never heard about physiatry. That’s the specialty that I chose physical medicine rehabilitation. That’s the specialty of the person with disabilities.

And the reason that I chose physiatry was because I was between, you know, neurology and endocrinology. I was thinking about even what patient medicine, but I chose physiatry because I remember it was because of acupuncture. I had a patient that I was an intern, and we admitted the patient for investigation of her pain, she had been all over her body.

And We admitted her so we did all kinds of investigations Inside Out upside down. As you probably know, we wanted to find something that was abnormal metabolically or endocrine or any problem. And we couldn’t then she had been all over her body. So when the physiatrist came to the consult, he came with a bunch of needles, and he stuck needles on her. Half an hour later, she was walking happily.

And we discharged her the next day. So I said, Oh my god, what is this voodoo medicine? What did you do? And he explained to me in scientific terms, he said, No, you never heard about the pain system. You never heard about the opioid endogenous opioid, beta-endorphin. I said, No, I never heard about this in medical school. So he taught me that our brain is able to produce our own medicines.

And with acupuncture, what they did is just release those medicines from the internal pharmacy in the brain. And I said I need to know more about this. And that’s how I got fascinated by pain. And then studying the pain system and studying how can we help people with pain all my life? I’m a scientist. So I do a lot of scientific studies as well. And yeah, so that’s what got me into pain medicine.

Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s excellent. So that was during, your clinical rotations. Yeah. So you decided after that I wanted to get into physiatry.

Dr. Andrea Furlan: Ziaja tree and in physiatry, I, you know, physiatry we learn about rehabilitation of people with stroke and spinal cord injury, amputations, and nerve impairment, but I focus on rehabilitation of the person with chronic pain, because I see I can see how this is so debilitating, and it’s an invisible disability that people have nothing to show that is wrong. But you still can rehabilitate them and help them to conquer their pain. And that’s what I’ve been doing for the last 30 years since I graduated from medical school.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Right um, I asked you before we got on how long did it take you to write the book and you told me about 30 years so it’s always alive. For long learning, did you end up doing your fellowship in pain or chronic pain?

Dr. Andrea Furlan: Is that Yeah. So when I came to Canada, I did a PhD here at the University of Toronto, and then a fellowship in pain medicine. So I am over-studied. Topic.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, which is a good segue into this book that you’ve written eight steps to conquering your chronic pain, a doctor’s guide to lifelong relief. So it’s a pretty bold statement to say lifelong relief, right? So but with how much you’ve studied, the way you’ve categorized the pain, and, and all the steps that you need to do, I guess I would ask you the first question, what are the three types of pain you identify three types of pain and maybe let’s springboard from that.

Dr. Andrea Furlan: Yeah. And that’s important. That’s the basis of the knowledge. So it’s important that people understand because they do receive different treatments, depending on what kind of pain the person has. So let me explain this in terms of an analogy of an alarm system of a house, okay? So the pain system is like the alarm system that you install in your house, it’s the alarm to detect danger. If you install an alarm system, you put sensors on the walls for smoke, fire, burglar breakings, water leak in the basement, etc. If you want them to make noise, and alert, send an impulse to the box on the wall, and that box on the wall will activate the office, the central office of the alarm company. And the alarm company will decide do I send the ambulance, the fire truck, or the police to this house. So we have exactly the same thing in our body, we have the pain system. So we have sensors for pain all over our body, mostly in the skin.

Because that’s our how we communicate with the exterior, we have little fewer in the organs, internal organs, like muscles, heart, guts, and organs, we have fewer, but we do. So they’re there to detect danger. And then they send the signals, the equivalent of the box on the wall, that thing that we have on the wall is the spinal cord. So they all bring this sensation to the spinal cord, and the spinal cord will communicate with another neuron.

But in the spinal cord, a lot of things happen there. That’s where central sensitization can happen. So in the spinal cord, you can have a block of that sensation. That’s the gate control theory that says you can block that sensation from going up to the brain. Or you can amplify central sensitization will amplify that sensation. But anyway, so when it gets to the brain, the brain is like the office of the alarm company, the brain will decide what do I do with this information? I’m receiving alarm signals from that body part.

And what do I do? Do I tell the person to stop what they’re doing and then the brain will basically activate our endogenous internal own thing? Suppression pathways, like releasing opioids, the endorphins from our inner pharmacy that we have in the brain, for example, that’s what happened to the patient that I mentioned to you. When he put acupuncture needles on her activated this inner pharmacy human brain, she releases a lot of opioids, and she was fine. We know that better endorphin takes seven days to be broken and, and finish the action. So she should be okay for about seven days better than any pill, right? No pill of opioids last seven days.

But anyway, so not susceptive being neuropathic pain, neuroplastic thing, nasty plastic pain, those are the three types of pain. Sorry that I don’t have better terms. I didn’t invent this. I’m just the messenger here. Don’t shoot me a nociceptive thing is when there is a fire in the house, so you do need the fire truck to come and put up the fire and once the fire stops, the alarm goes silent. Okay, so if you have a fracture, toothache and inflamed ear, you have inflammation you have appendicitis Those are good reasons for you to stop what you’re doing go seek medical care because something is broken.

You broke a bone and that’s natural to hurt. neuropathic pain, which is the second type of thing is when the nerve system that carries this information has some disease. So for example, in compression of a nerve like carpal tunnel syndrome, or multiple sclerosis the person loses all the myelin around their nerve. or they have a spinal cord injury or they have a stroke. So those things affect the nerves and the pathways that carry the pain impulse. And the pain is kind of different and is not the same thing as the first one. They’re not susceptive things more inflammatory is localized. When the problem is. neuropathic pain is more burning, tingling electrical shocks, and it’s localized in the area that is innervated by that nerve. that’s those are the two types of mostly acute pain.

So those two types, they have been most acutely, because after three months, six months, those injuries, they tend to heal, if there was a fracture, the fracture is healed, if there was a nerve compression, the nerve, you know, use some anti-inflammatory, and then the nerve is not compressed. So the third type of pain is equivalent is Nasi plastics, that’s an agnostic plastic because it involves plasticity. That is when those injuries have been healed, or the problem had been taken care of. So they don’t have the initial injury anymore, but the system is still making noise. So now the alarm system of the house is malfunctioning. And that’s a terrible type of pain.

Because first it’s constant. It’s very loud, usually the volume is very loud so it’s usually worse than not susceptive neuropathic, and they have nothing to show that it’s broken or injured. And they go from doctor to doctor specialist, they do more MRIs, they get injections, they get opioids, they get surgeries, and they don’t get better. So you need someone to examine them and say this is not a plastic thing, because we can examine now a person and detect that it’s the pain system that is provoking. So they’re not imagining the pain, the pain is quite real. And it’s not in their head. It’s not emotional, it’s not psychological, the pain is quite real. It’s just that the origin of the pain is now the malfunctioning of the pain system. It’s not the fire so the house is not on fire, although that’s how they feel. Because it’s so constant.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s a great answer. I love the analogy. I’m big into analogies. And I would imagine that the terminology is relatively new, is it not? That the because with specialties, if they are not finding the cause of the problem, and it’s a note said no see plastic type of generator? I guess the first step in helping this is in the first step of retraining your pain system. Is that correct?

Dr. Andrea Furlan: Yeah, yeah. And let me tell you something,, in my experience, most people may have a combination of one and three, two, and three, one and two, or all three, right? So that’s why they need to be to have a good investigation. And they need to see a doctor to make this diagnosis. So don’t try to diagnose yourself isn’t all chronic pains are just nasty plastic, there might be something that is wrong, that could be treated, but the Nasik class component may be making noise in the background.

And then it’s so hard for you to find the nociceptive neuropathic if the house like if the alarm of the house is making a lot of noise and very loud, it’s hard for you to know if it is really a fire somewhere here there. But in a good physical examination, and when we talk to the patients that those kinds of pain become clear.

And again, the treatment is different. Because you just said that for Nasik’s plastic pain. You don’t do the same things that you do for acute pain, there is no susceptor because they will not work. An example is opioids, opioids. You know we are in the middle of here in Canada and the United States we are in the middle of a crisis because, with so many people who suffer from chronic pain, it’s one in five adults that have chronic pain, some type of chronic pain. physicians want to help them and healthcare professionals don’t want to see them suffering. So it is easy to prescribe an opioid because if you think okay, this person has pain if I give them an opioid, I would remove their pain so why not give it?

The problem is if the person has predominantly Nasik plastic pain, you can make that pain transform into a Fibromyalgia spread. Fibromyalgia is a pain that is spread to the body and that’s the poster child of nasty plastic pain because we know that the pharmacy the inner pharmacy in the brain of people with Fibromyalgia is not working properly. So they cannot activate those opioids endogenous adequately, they have a lot of central sensitization. And we know that if you give opioids it’s almost like putting gasoline on the fire because you’re going to spread and make this pain become more chronic and more Nasik plastic. So you really need to be careful to whom you prescribe and do interventions like this.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. And I’m glad you’ve done the work because it really is untangling the ball of yarn and pulling out and under uncovering, which is the generator. And I guess that’s where the difference between chronic and acute pain comes in how the central processing or the plasticity of the brain and the limbic Center and the emotions we play on it, and how that creates that perfect, vicious cycle. So maybe tell us about that and unpack that for us.

Dr. Andrea Furlan: Absolutely. And you just got it, the visual cycle is what mainly causes the disability related to chronic pain. Because the personnel, they are afraid of the pain. So pain now becomes the stressor in their life. They may tell you and I’m not afraid of my pain. I know this is okay, I’ll have pain for the rest of my life. But the brain is still being alerted that something’s wrong. And the brain needs to interpret what is going on. When the brain cannot, then when the mind can’t interpret. Listen, I’m feeling this pain. And you’re telling me that everything is alright, where is this coming from? It generates a cascade of events.

And as you probably know this better than I don’t, it generates all activates the HPA axis. And the adrenaline goes crazy cortisol hormones and stress levels go wild. And then the person just reinforced because they learn it’s a lot of our behaviors, almost all of our behaviors are learned behaviors. You learn by practicing. So they learned that, okay, I have pain. So if I don’t move, I don’t trigger pain. And maybe pain is a bad thing, I should not be feeling pain. So if I don’t move, I feel less pain. Therefore I need to move less and do less. So they stopped going places they stopped doing things that are normal parts of life.

And that just creates a more sedentary life, more bad nutrition, weight gain, hypertension, depression, and sleep problems, because now they have more time to do what sleep Sometimes they have time for some of my patients, they take long naps in the afternoon, I take three hours nap in the afternoon, and they go crazy, I say, don’t do that, because that’s the best recipe for you to have a very bad quality of sleep at night when you do need good quality sleep.

So the vicious cycle, the fear behaviors, avoidance, don’t move, sleeping more taking pills, they like to pop pills because we are in a society where we want quick fixes. They don’t want to do a lot of things for themselves. They don’t want to take charge of their life. So my book is about lifestyle modifications, you know, that’s where I want them to go be free to take charge of their life because that, in my opinion, that’s the only way that they can be rehabilitated if they start doing things for themselves.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s interesting, I think you were blessed with your clinical experience to see that, versus someone like myself, where I would do a lot of mechanical support for injuries. And some people would get better and some people wouldn’t. And I realized, well, there’s got to be something else going on. And not only just the emotional component, I was fortunate in my second degree to have a psychology degree. So I understood there is a connection, but also just in the metabolic, what’s going on with this person and what else is going on in their body. And you were fortunate to get that going into it. Did that guide you in terms of making more of a clinical decision before you put in the interventions? And I guess that’s the question I’m asking.

Dr. Andrea Furlan: If I understand well, your question. So, yes, so we can separate the mind from the body. That’s one thing if we try to separate them, and if we try to just read the mind or just treat the body, especially for cramping. You can’t because we have symptom physical symptoms that are an expression of an emotion. An example of this is tears. I always tell my patients tears you know right in front of your eyes. We can’t hide, we usually can hide tears because that’s the first place that people look at us. You can have tears of joy, tears of sadness, tears of emotion. So our body expresses.

So when we talk about our metabolism when we talk about it, the other thing that I love, a passion of mine is nutrition. I think nutrition is essential for fighting chronic pain, especially chronic pain. We know so much now about nutrition that we didn’t know before. And nutrition is so integrated with our metabolism with our gut bacteria, we’re now studying a lot of, you know, the importance of our, you know, all these billions of bacteria that we have in our gut, they do amazing things, they control our mood, because our production of serotonin if you have the right composition of this bacteria, you may have good, you know, pain-free life. But if you have the wrong composition, you may have fibromyalgia, we know this. It’s amazing.

And then people can do transplant, fecal transplant from one person that has healthy bacteria to another person. So that’s another story. But so they’re all indicated. They’re all connected to hormones and diet. We can the problem is, Joel, our medical system is very good at helping people with acute problems. That’s what it would say, here in Canada, we are very efficient in fixing someone who is wrong. Like, if there’s an injury, let’s do surgery, if there’s a fracture, let’s cast and bye-bye. But when a person has a recurrent, chronic disease, the system is not prepared for this person, and the system gets overwhelmed.

And we have primary care providers, family doctors, nurse practitioners who have five minutes with each Vale, how can I expect them to do you know, a full assessment of all of this in five minutes? So I feel for those patients who need a full assessment and deserve a full assessment. But sometimes it’s really hard to get.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you know, it’s interesting that you’re talking about it in this aspect because I don’t think the mind-body connection in traditional medicine is typically appreciated, as well as nutrition. And I do see that the tides are changing and the medicine 3.0 is hopefully coming in. And what I’m surprised about Andrea is the fact that it sort of takes the P m&r physiatry specialty to really lead the charge. Maybe you can segue into what are the eight steps because I don’t think the eight steps would just be applicable to chronic pain per se, it’d be applicable to chronic illness or chronic anything that’s chronic in nature, because those eight fundamentals are really applied across all spectrums for more chronic like presentation. So maybe it was, yeah.

Dr. Andrea Furlan: And the way that I chose the steps and align them down, you know, they are like steps, climbing a mountain and conquering a mountain. And the ones that are put at the base of the mountain are the ones that I think if people do first, it puts them in a much better position to do the other ones that I asked them to do later in the mountain. So I started with the first step is retraining the pain system.

And how do you you know, retrain your brain it’s not rocket science, you know, this is quite simple. It is first learning that you have a pin system, learning that there is a possibility you’re paying, you’re paying is not so plastic and you need the same way that you form those synapses in the plasticity, you can undo them. So you can kind of undo those synapses and disconnect that alarm system of the house that is going rogue just because it is you know making noise. And once you stop that you can now listen, okay? The nociceptive pain is there. Okay? The neuropathic pain is there and go treat that thing. So that takes the noise out of the house. So that’s the first step.

And how do you do that there are many different I don’t have time here to explain to your audience, all the possibilities, but one example is yoga. Because yoga involves the mind and body. Usually, it’s mind and body exercises, breathing exercises, activation of the percent sympathetic nervous system, going for a walk, meditation, and mindfulness, those kinds of things are excellent to retrain the brain system. The second step is your emotions. So I talk about controlling your emotions, but that’s more like knowing your emotions and knowing that emotions have an influence on your body on your pain because you If you deny those emotions and Oh, my pain is not affected my emotions, we have a problem because they do.

And you’re not acknowledging that makes, it hard for me to help you, too. Because if we can help, you know that stress reaction, the problem that you had with your husband, you know, the situation with your family, the financial situation, the angriness, the frustrations that you have, they affect you, they’re affecting your pain. If you don’t take that out of the equation, I can get in to help you with the other kinds of things. So then we talk about sleep in sleep is extremely important. We talk about nutrition, we talk about exercises, we talk about medications, one of the steps higher on the mountain is how do you use medications?

How do you talk to your physician about your pain and your pain medications? Do you know what medications you are taking, Do you know what they are for? The other step also is people around you, you need to learn how to communicate with them. Because we now have a lot of evidence that the context where the person is affects their suffering from pain. So you give an example.

So you probably heard that when people come to a pain clinic, we ask them to give a number to pain zero is no pain. 10 is the worst pain of all that you can ever imagine. When people give us a score like 789 10 It doesn’t have a this is for chronic pain, maybe not for acute pain. For chronic pain, it doesn’t have a correlation with how many injuries are legion in the body. What they are telling us is how much they’re suffering from that thing. If they say my dog, my things are nine out of 10. It’s because they’re suffering a lot.

And they’re feeling that weight. And it’s like, I can’t live in this house anymore. It’s driving me crazy because it’s so loud and it’s all the time and nobody can hear they think I’m crazy. The context, the social context that the person leaves can make the ping better or worse, that’s suffering. So for example, in the laboratory, they change it who is around the person with chronic pain. So if they bring a person with a smile, hamper at an ice cream person, that suffering decreases, so the person in the laboratory will say, Oh, my pain is not so bad. So three, four, or five. But if they show a video or pictures of angry people, people who are nasty, and Aino saying horrible things and treating kids badly, they will say Oh, my pain is 789. So changing the color.

They did this in the laboratory, they showed red collars to people with pain. Reg reminds us of fire, ambulance of danger blockage. So they rated their high napping higher. They show blue collars that remind us of sky and ocean peace and they report less so the context around us can increase this suffering or decrease the suffering. So we need to be mindful of that. Because if someone comes to me and says I’m having a nine out of 10 Ping, am I tempted to give them an injection a surgery? an opioid pill?

Yes, because I and they’re crying in front of me. And they said they really suffering. But if I know that the context where their life is they feel they’re alone. They’re lonely. The kids, don’t talk to the kids for 20 years. They don’t have any friends, they lost their job. You see the difference. So their nine out of 10 is a consequence of what’s going on around them. And the last step in the book, The eighth step is once they get to the top of the mountain, their goals leave their life this is something that people can’t believe that they can do conquering the mountain doesn’t mean that mountain is gone that it’s going to disappear.

The mountain is still there, so your pain may still be there. But you conquered means you’re paying in the back side of your life is not controlling you anymore. You can live your life you can meet your goals, and you can enjoy your life. Your life doesn’t need to stop because you have chronic pain. It is possible to do this to people sometimes they don’t believe and that’s why I have a lot of testimonials and stories in my book I’ve seen this in my 30 years of exposure means I’ve seen many people who tell me, Dr. Furlanetto, I don’t need you anymore.

I came here to discharge you. Because I still have chronic pain, but it’s really not bothering me anymore. I’m not suffering from it anymore. I have my tools, I know how to handle a flare-up. And they are prepared to tackle the next mounting, which could be cancer, it could be another chronic disease or depression. It could be another episode, another different kind of pain. So but they now are more resilient. That’s what I hope people can achieve.

Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s wonderful. I am really moved by the body of research and the information that you’re bringing I reading Peter at Tear’s book right now and talking about the 3.0 in medicine and how we get people to live with their illness, but not die from it, and increase their health span. And I think that’s exactly what you’re doing. I found that to be true as well with our patient faces. I’ll ask him. Okay, not that I have a magic wand. But if I did, and we were able to achieve what we wanted to achieve, what would that look like?

And all of them are? A lot of them are? Well, I don’t give myself permission. I’m not there yet. I don’t even think about it. I don’t even know. And I think that’s part of the reason we don’t wait until we’re ready. Before we do it. We have to have that mindset before we go into it, but I like that it’s in the mountain and of the hierarchy as well. I guess the question would be to you, Andrea, is how does this fit into the model?

That’s not quite there yet? How, especially with other specialties? I mean, I could see chronic pain and people that are presenting, but how does it change how services are provided? I mean, it’s great that you have this book in this resource, and people could do it on their own. But if doctors or the healthcare system, depending on what country you’re in, and third-party reimbursement aren’t necessarily for or against whatever, I guess what’s the utopia of this? How do you see this fitting in?

Dr. Andrea Furlan: I thought about this and I have an answer. Because I had the same thought he said, I think Joe, the people that are best equipped to help this patient with chronic pain to apply these eight steps are not healthcare professionals are other people’s peers who have conquered their own mountings. So let me back up a little bit. You need a good physician or healthcare professional to make the diagnosis and tell you this is the type of pain you have.

You have nociceptive neuropathic Nasi plastic one of the three or two or three, make the diagnosis be there if they need an injection, if they need surgery, if they need a prescription, you are available to them. But I don’t think the professionals especially doctors, nurse practitioners, physician assistants, we are so busy. We need to train peers, people who had conquered that chronic pain mounting, should take these people by the hand and coach them up the mounting. That’s my philosophy.

That’s where I would like to go. And there are many peer-to-peer groups here in Canada, I hope in the United States, you also have those. But in United here in Canada, we do have associations and I don’t mention them in my book and the resources. I have links to those many of those groups in the United Kingdom in Canada. And they have people who can affiliate with them and start going to those meetings. They usually are in groups but some of those people, also do one on one sessions.

But I think this is the model that would be best in my opinion, because I would like to be coached by someone who had the experience. I like to see them as a role model for me if I have a disease, I say Okay, tell me where to go. How do I go? How did you do on this day? How what did you think when this was so hard for you to do? And actually, that’s what a lot of groups in Canada, they’re using my book to discuss in those groups. So I hope we’ll have many more people to be coaching their peers.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, it’s great. I think Do you think it’s possible that with the intake and part of the diagnosis criteria that you have sort of alerts to know that there are some yellow I wouldn’t call them red flags, but yellow flags with all of these?

Dr. Andrea Furlan: I hope so. Yeah. I hope so. And so they need a checkup with their healthcare professionals regularly. You know, because maybe during this process that you were trying to conquer your mountain maybe there is a thyroid that now is out of work and you need to treat the thyroid or you need or you develop rheumatoid arthritis and you do need treatment for that. So, they are not immune to a nociception of neuropathic pain. But if everything is okay, you know, checkups with your health care professionals to make sure that you are is to you know, okay to continue doing those steps because those steps are a lifestyle.

And you don’t need a healthcare professional to teach you to eat well, to sleep well, to exercise, to socialize, to get out of your comfort zone to talk about your emotions to do journaling, meditation, mindfulness, you can do this with people who are not in the healthcare field.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s spoken from someone who knows how the system is run and not necessarily going to knock over the, you know, the Goliath of the medicine world. But I would say that it would be nice if it was aligned to support them in those areas. But you know, what the bottom line is, it comes down to the patient, right? I mean, the patient, I think you and I would agree that the majority of them don’t want to feel this way if not all of them. And they really are looking for solutions. And they’re not crazy. And they haven’t been given the proper insight into everything that they’ve been doing.

And this is a fantastic research resource to be able to look into and say, Hey, there’s more lifestyle, emotional responsibility. And I haven’t written down here actually fear of pain equals disability confidence and activity equals recovery. I think that kind of sums it up right there. So awesome information. I was really impressed with the book, Andrea, I always like to ask my guests, we’re sort of winding down here. What do you wish you would have known because the title of our podcast is your adrenal fixed and teaching adults that are Exhausted and burnt out?

That if they would have had some kind of pain generator, acute, they would have been headed towards that crunch? chronicity? What would you have told your younger self that you wish you would have known then that you know now that might have accelerated your learning curve or given you wisdom prior to having to go through the growing pains? But what would have been some words of advice you would have told yourself?

Dr. Andrea Furlan: Yes, so so much advice that I could give myself my younger self, I would say, when we see people with chronic pain, I think in my early years, I may have thought that I could fix everybody. And here I am, I just graduated, I know all of the science, I then did a PhD and I got a degree. So let me fix you. I think I tried with many of my patients initially, let me do this acupuncture, let me do this injection, let me do this. But I am knowing now I am much less, I’d say confident in myself that I can fix someone. I probably because I see people that they fix themselves. And, once they make the change in their mind. And I don’t know, really, if it was something that I said or something that they read anywhere. They change their life, they approach life and pain differently. They change in front of my eyes.

And it could be like they need a change to eating healthier because they realize that eating junk, processed food was not getting anywhere. And another person could be, you know, my sleep is a mess. And I will take care of this when they come back to me. They are different people, they are more awake, they are more talkative, they’re happier. So each person is different. But I think I lost my pride, that I can fix them. I can help I can teach them everything I know. But a lot of chronic people, they have the answers inside of themselves. So I just need to let them know that there are these possibilities, and they need to do the majority of the work not me.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, that’s a great answer. I mean, you know, the root of the word doctor is to teach right? And I think when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. And I think you know, I always ask that question with a little bit of hesitancy because had you not gone through that learning curve and that smack in the head of you’re not going to fix them all. You wouldn’t have written this book to be able to give them the power to see this teacher help the student learn. So I think this is your way of helping to mold, the beautiful artist inside the body that’s ready to come out when they’re looking for it, so kudos to you. The book is called eight steps to conquering your chronic pain. It’s a doctor’s guide to lifelong relief. And you can find it wherever books are sold. And you also whereas other places, I mean, you got a beautiful silver YouTube thing behind you. So where can they find you and get more information if they already don’t know who you are?

Dr. Andrea Furlan: Yeah, so I do have a YouTube channel. It’s my name, Dr. Dot Andrea Forland. And I have a website that is Dr. D o c t o r, Andrea forland.com. And there they have links where they can order the book, but it has you said everywhere where books are sold, they can find a book. And my channel is just my name on YouTube.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate your time. And I thank you for your contributions, and I look forward to hearing about future successes. So thank you so much. Thank you for inviting me and talk to your audience today. Thank you.

To check out Dr. Andrea’s book, click here 

The post Unlock a Pain-Free Life Here are 8 Steps to Defeat Chronic Pain appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their health back quickly. Really excited to meet with a colleague.

Sean is who we are going to be talking about metabolic bottlenecking and thyroid and adrenals. Sean is an avid researcher, he is constantly in pursuit of deeper ways of looking at disease and chronic illness through the lenses of biology, biochemistry, genetics, epigenetics, and physiology, he has been dubbed the meta-medic metabolic detective of integrative health, oftentimes, he will be the last person to be seen, I can definitely identify with that after the people have exhausted every other therapy, I could go on and on. But Shawn, I really want to just get into the meat and potatoes. So thank you so much for being here today.

Shawn Bean: And Joel, it’s complete honor being with you, because I’ve followed you for many, many years through my own journey. And a lot of your information has been Paradine and getting me to where I am today. In regards to back in the day, you were the adrenal guy, but we all know now that that whole methodology has changed. And what more of the box thinkers were more of the technicians, you know, the people that put you on the diagnostics on the car, and, you know, the people see the big picture, okay, I refer to this as the 40,000-foot view. Okay, it’s like being up the airplane and looking down, rather than, you know like many people are a specialist, you and I are specialists in being generalists. We’re generalized specialists. Okay. So that’s probably the easiest way I explain myself what do you do? I’m, I’m a specialist in media journalism.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. Awesome. Well, listen, I mean, that’s very flattering to know and I appreciate the kind words so I always like to know a little bit about you and I do know some somewhat of your personal story. But for the listeners that may not know, let’s talk about how you became the generalist. That’s what you do.

Shawn Bean: About 20 years ago, I was a natural bodybuilder. To make a long story short, we started the ordered alteration and circadian pattern. I read an article where bodybuilders were getting up at like three o’clock in the morning, you can go back to bed because I’m making no more keep you in protein synthesis. You know, you know, we had a saying that you had to eat every two hours or go catabolic. We know that to be a bunch of nonsense right now. Okay, there are a lot of myths out there that we had no idea about that were disproven. So what happened was, I started getting up at three o’clock in the morning, eating my meal. I read that article from Jay Cutler, who eats like 12 times a day, and I was eating about 10 times a day.

And my whole life revolved around feeding myself. I mean, the number of calories I was eating, I was probably around five 600 grams of protein, 400 grams of carbs, and probably about 135 grams of fat to maintain my 225 pounds, you know, four to 5% body fat composition. Because being a mezzo month, we had to eat calories because I had a fast metabolism.

And I rarely ever did cardio. So what happened there was because of the circadian pattern, I started to have sleep disturbances, I started having museological dysfunctions, and there are warning signs before I even went into contest time. When everyone get done contest, we went decided to have sushi. So being stressed, my immune system was compromised, we were at the sushi bar for about five hours, and I think I put on between 15 and 20 pounds of water weight in that timeframe because, after the contest, you get done, you can literally see yourself growing. You know, it was insane, because of water retention.

And then I started to feel icky afterwards and like and then I started out with mountain direction problems. I went to the doc you know, the whole story, go Doctor GI doctor, nothing wrong, you know, it’s like you got a guy coming in your office now that was like 185 pounds, and then, you know, six weeks later at 240 pounds, you know, the first thing out of the mouth of steroids. Like dude, I hadn’t touched that stuff in years prior for this stuff happens so we can go down that rabbit hole. Okay, and they always want to so I walked into the doctor’s office, and they text my testosterone came back 35 to 35 total, which now we know is basically what is called unit which is basically castration level. No no and explanation. So he gave me like five milligrams of Androgel, which we knew was a total joke, but did nothing. So I started to look at my labs, and I started to know the alkaline phosphatase was low.

I brought this to his attention. He didn’t recognize it. I started to notice my thyroid was off even though it was in a normal range. But you know, the basic stuff that we know now we’re like, Well, this is what’s going on, but back then they had no clue. So fast forward. I had gi problems and then once that happened, I moved into a house with mold in it and then I About a month after moving into the house and mold, I suspected a parasite, and actually two years later I found out the place I ate sushi got closed down by the health board for preparation of food, so I was correct about that. But then I went into a house with mold as a chaperone to a person that had.

He was cerebral palsy. My mom started cleaning the house you didn’t tell me 15 years later, by the way, that there was black mold there. So about a month in I woke up with total amnesia. I didn’t know who I was stuttering slobbering, I was a stranger in a strange land. And that’s when my whole life changed. And we started down these rabbit holes, the doctors, you know, your Oh, your, your, you know, they put you on thyroid medicine. And next thing you know, it’s like, Oh, your thyroid levels are beautiful, and you still feel like crap.

And here I was, you know, I had lost over 90 pounds of lean muscle tissue and even eaten a lot of calories. So it was major malabsorption issues going on? So we went down that rabbit hole. Then they tested my adrenals. The nurse said I don’t know how you’re walking around and my total, my total cortisol levels were at my total cortisol levels were at two on the serum. So therefore I was clinically called Addison’s borderline, Addison’s, but it wasn’t able to do anything. So in that scenario, what happened was is then I went through, and I’m like, Doc, find out what I’m deficient in and put it back in.

Because of the malabsorption issue and that was what I originally started with anyway, in the first place. Because that threw me off because I knew I was deficient in things, everything. You know, it wasn’t absorbing, like I said, I lost. They said I wasn’t as big as I was, I would have been dead. Because I went from 235 pounds at a low percent body fat down to 165 pounds, I liked 14% body fat and less than nine months. So there were a lot of things going on there. So this led into another and this led me down the rabbit hole of heavy metals. I think the biggest thing that helped me was what was known as the PK protocol. And the PK protocol was the phospholipid IVs with the methyl p 12. And the methyl Foley together helped out tremendously. Within six weeks, I had gained most of my strength back, getting back into the normal swing of things.

I walked back into the gym. You know, six weeks later, they thought I had AIDS and here I was back almost some factors on my own strength. Now that led into I was doing really good always back on things. And then I hit fluoroquinolones. Because I was going into my gut, I knew my gut was still off. So I decided to have a parasite test parasite test came back, the parasite test came back with an organism. The drug they recommend it was Joe, Joe myosin, I went to the pharmacist, and they gave me a drug, they gave me Levaquin instead because it was a replacement for GM myosin. And then I took three days of that I felt like my wrist, I felt like it was going to muscles right off.

And that’s when my GI tract, just like, never healed. And after that, then it just started into like one episode of mold right after another, making me more susceptible. And then, just within the past four years, I got a bad mold hit and I had to go through it all again. But my knowledge base was much stronger. But the difference was is we did not have electromagnetic fields 20 years ago. So the electromagnetic fields made the biggest impact on my recovery. And when we moved out of the house of mold, which was great, I felt good, but the thing is we moved into a condo, which was basically right by the, you know, with 35 WiFis going, and here I was trying to get, you know, push my way through, and then we had a gas stove. So you had the overload of the phenol pathway going and the overload of the phenol pathway.

I started noticing little white spots coming up. And we’re starting to see this more and people have coded to, we’re starting to see these little white dots come up with no known explanation. Upon clinical research, I found an article showing that they were actually phenols coming out through your skin as a result of the inability to break it down, I do have a phenol sulfotransferase issue going on, which I had to do to salt to one multiple salt 21 genes. So as you can see the patterns going on. So this is where I’m at today, recovering from another mold hit and I wax and wane when I get a mold hit what happens is it hits my dopamine receptors if my acetylcholine receptors, I can go from the Parkinsonian to the end Jean Mesquita is my, I can never pronounce that word. But you go into acetylcholine deficiency.

So there are some times where, you know, I might wake up stuttering, I may have plus have Asperger’s, I noticed that the mold making my Asperger’s symptoms 10 times worse. I’ll go into a done state, I’ll go into a locked up syndrome state as they would call it, I will go into.

alright, but Okay, I’ll go into the lock them syndrome makes relationships difficult because of mutations. So you see a lot of people that have, like mold, toxicities, and a lot of cases that I’m sure you worked on, and I worked on and many practitioners work on. When you get that mold taken care of a lot of the Asperger’s, a lot of their autistic symptoms go away. And we do see that a lot. And there have been clinical studies showing that Dr. Andrew Campbell, who runs who’s the editor and Director of Medical Director of my micro Labs has seen and documented this multiple times when you address the underlying factor, which is the mycotoxins and the mold.

A lot of these Lyme symptoms and mess and all these other quote, labels get better. And I can attest to that. Because when I do address my metabolic pathways that are associated with the mycotoxins, specific ones, I have glial toxins, and I haven’t done that explained, when I look into the chemical research of what they do, Don mimics celiac. And I’ve been basically living as a celiac and also cystic fibrosis for many, many years because, on my organic acid test, I always kept seeing the elevated of 10 empirics.

And often we see 10 to pure chi, the funny thing is, is I always tell people, I always tell my clients, I said, I bet your sh VG is high, they come back, they’re like, how do you know, I said, You’re a pure chi, that’s using indication that there’s damage to liver on your phase one and phase two. And that usually means your sulfation pathways are off.

And as you know, I’m a specialist in hormones and endocrine systems in regards to a lot of the protocols out there with male hormones actually originated from my findings that were taking, you know, my other doctors because I was not a medical doctor. And as a current trend that we’re seeing, and one of the things was is I was always the one when you look on my you know, on my Facebook, I’m always talking about sh PG, the clinical relevance of it, why is it so high?

There have been very few cases and I’ve been one of them that have actually been able to lower it from high back down to my normal. And I believe that one of the reasons was that I was I was having protein malabsorption. And protein malabsorption was also coming from the dawn. Because what happens is protein malabsorption. Don will mimic celiac, which will shorten your villi. When you shorten your bill what happens is you’ll develop protein synthesis issues. So the thing that I did was I looked at the clinical research and how can I increase my protein synthesis, despite using digestive enzymes and HCl and bitters and yatta yatta yatta, which did nothing. Okay, for mass HPG.

So the two things I found that worked for Heb shot was number one wasn’t treating the mold. Number two, it was actually the things that I did there. I did two things. The only thing I could figure out as I started was glutathione injections because transdermally I can’t transdermal or injections are the only two things that work because I’ve tried every liposomal under the sun. People with gallbladder issues people with mimicking cystic fibrosis, they don’t absorb lipo slumps, because there are gallbladder issues, okay? So I only take that chance no more. And it was the same thing with a lot of my supplements.

So I either go transdermally or injected I, you know, nasal, up the rear, whatever I can do to get it in. Okay. And during the injections was a huge asset, because I could do the injections three times a week I made sure I could recycle it. Now the only thing you have to watch with glutathione injections is you have to make sure that you don’t have high Gliotoxin because in clinical research if you have the glial toxin, there’s a potential chance that the glutathione can potentially feed itself because it does work out the disulfide pathway that it did find out it’s a complex sequence of events, but I actually had mapped out on different clinical research with that, that I could potentially share with you in studies, but using the glutathione in my case, in a few other cases work wonderfully.

But the problem was is after three or four months, we started to get negative effects from it. And we suspected that it was helping the inflammation in the glial toxins. But on the other end, what it was doing was also potentially feeding it. And in one case where I had, we did glutathione acetylcholine, uh, we use the S acetyl glutathione. And what happened was, we had this kid back to fully functional, and I believe he grew like three to four inches within six months. It was insane.

But it was like his father’s back, you know, my son’s back, but then he fell down again. Okay. And guess what we found inside his mycotoxin test, glial toxin. So, proper analysis of the labs is crucial, because you have to know what pathways are being affected. Gliotoxin also works on local trains, the before pathway, you know, very similar to aspirin. So if you have a slight problem, salicylates will inhibit the local train response from that pathway. So, giving things like fish oils is counterproductive in those scenarios.

So, so anything that shuts that down, you want to be careful off because you want to stimulate it, because that look, what happens is the glial toxin shuts that pathway down. And when it shuts down, it can’t respond to other infections. So your immune system gets knocked out. As a response to that. So different organisms. The fungus is the gun, the mycotoxin of the bullet, okay, and the thing is, is when mycotoxins. It doesn’t matter whether it’s Candida, fungal yeast, or whatever the end products are usually summered alcohol.

That’s why when I start treating my client I’m treating but when advising my clients and recommending its recommendations, they are based upon three different criteria that I’m starting to find out. Allegra, which is an alcohol, number two alcohol or nonalcoholic fatty liver, and three traumatic brain injury. When you start to address those things from those angles, and reverse engineer, the microbiome, the endocrine system, the nutritional deficiencies, the environmental toxins, and the brain, then you’ll start to see how everything connects together. And it’s this connection that the majority of practitioners are missing because they are a specialist.

Go to a mold specialist. They focus on mold, they give you a Schumacher protocol. Say Schumaker protocol is good for some people. But if you have low cholesterol, you can’t do core styling. Why do you have low cholesterol because Aspergillus Penicillium is guess what? A statin. So basically, in my line in my biochemistry, I have been living with a person that has been poisoned by statins, poisoned by fluoroquinolones, an alcoholic living with cystic fibrosis, and also a celiac altogether. So what I did was I looked at the pathologies of those conditions, and reverse engineer them through the metabolic pathways and the gene expressions, to better understand a lot of the chronic illnesses that we deal with, which actually has a very similarity to autism.

Because I’ve got into this study in autism, because of somebody on the, you know, somebody on the online, said, Have you ever thought about you being autistic? Well, that makes sense. Because, you know, 35 You know, when we were growing up, okay, we had people you’re shy. Okay, shy, was formerly depression. I had classical signs of Asperger’s back then. I was extremely highly intelligent but had dyslexia. I could count do mathematical explanations and never carry a book to school. I would fall asleep in class wake up, answer the question, and go back to sleep. And I even got to the point to where the teachers thought I was cheating.

Because I never did I rarely did my homework. I didn’t do things to completion. But I fulfilled all the criteria. And I was one of the few students that has ever gone from the bottom end of the learning class. Because they always put you in categories based upon, you know, reading, because you’re always reading low, then you’re gonna be science low and this low. Well, I was the only student in my class that jumped from low science up to the gifted class. And I was outscoring the valid, I was actually out and doing the valedictorians.

Because of my science background. And because what happened was we had the SATs back then. And the SATs were an indication of how smart you are. Well, that’s not so true. Because I had a learning disability, I was scoring 700 on the SATs, because of the time strain. And the problem was how the questions were asked was, I was trying to take something simple and turn it into something that was rocket science. And I was never my brain didn’t work that way.

So one of the gifts that I have as a clinician is I have this holographic viewpoint where I can take a case, look at the labs, break them down scientifically in metabolic pathways, the gene expressions, and then actually formulate the regiment based upon all the criteria but also the contraindications based upon the hit hidden factors. Like for example, it’s like people are taking questions they don’t understand the question. downstream, the alcohol dehydrogenase pathway actually backlogs Lindsey NAT’s pathway.

So if you have fatty liver and you have an alcohol or mycotoxins the alcohol dehydrogenase pathway is going to get overloaded. And then at pathway dependent on sisal transferees pathway is going to get overloaded. So that’s where your B five B, one molybdenum comes in. But if you get questions persistence inhibits that.

So, therefore, you’re going to have problems with phenol issues. Solve late issues and that phenol sulfotransferase pathway is gonna get overloaded again, which a lot of people have. And you can look at the phenol sulfotransferase pathway by just looking at the Dutch test, just looking at the organic acid test, they cross-reference each other. So if you see number 61, hi, and number 10. Hi. And then you see on the Dutch test, you see the DHEA, say at 12 o’clock, and you see the DHEA s at nine o’clock. That’s a sulfation pathway problem.

And then what you do is you go back on and look at your genetics and boom, there it is sought to a one-two a to read. So what I do is I’ve learned to number one, that genetics is a map. It’s not absolutely. So I know that sounds against the current trend, but that’s what I do. I’m a renegade, I go against the current trend. I don’t look at genetics anymore. I don’t need you. As a clinician, I’ve learned to reverse engineer this to know exactly what genes are expressing based on symptoms based on lab test results. The organic acid test is over 16 different gene expressions I figured out. And then when you’re looking at erotic acid, that orotic Acid is only ammonia if it’s high. And second of all, if it’s low, it’s actually possible to clean the indication of Pemt gene expression.

So when a female comes in, I see low erotic acid on the organic acid test, which is number 60. I’m like, I bet your estrogen levels are low. And then boom, what do we do? We do an estrogen test. There they are. So, therefore, they’re, you know, at a person who has had a hysterectomy. 15 years ago, her doctor only gave her progesterone. She gave me 150 pounds. We did the organic acid test. We saw her levels were low. I said let me add you know, she’s like there’s no medical doctor around here. I said listen, I’ll find you one. If I don’t find you one, there are things that we can do over the counter. So we used an over-the-counter Astra da just to balance it out something you’re a professional word is and this is balanced about okay, because their philosophy is Oh, you have one ovary. Okay. She had a partial rectory.

Oh, yeah. Partial of your party your ovary is perfectly fine. Okay, I’m sure you hear it all the time. In that scenario, what did we do? We gave her a little bit of estrogen. She slept for the first time in 15 years. After six weeks she had lost 1520 Paris. She got Shawn I want to fly up there and give you a hug and guess I said to.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Say a little estrogen started interrupting like five milligrams. What are you talking about?

Shawn Bean: Um, what we did was as I usually run two points, I usually run between one to two of biased, because Astra dial will break down into the different metabolites. And this is where I like, get, like, ruffled because they’ll come in on estradiol. When we measure their metabolic pathways, they’re going toward the four hydroxy Ester, and they’re going to the two hydroxy yesterday, and they’re going down the different pathways when they also have a history of breast or union rearing cancer.

Okay, so the other pathways are not being addressed. So what I tend to do is, is I want to look not just upstream-downstream, but science stream, just to make sure the recommendations are adequate for their person. Because, you know, here you are, you know, I had one case of a woman who had advanced cancer, she went to a plant material based diet, okay, what happened was, she went to alkaline. So when she went to alkaline her body started producing acid against it.

So the tumor started growing even faster, because she went on a plant tertian diet, only eating plants in her cat. In her case, it was counterproductive. I said, Listen, we need to put more acid in your system because your body is trying to produce acids to offset the alkalinity. You know, we did and guess what happened? Has the cancer tumor slowed? Because just because it’s in the literature, there are always going to be exceptions to the rule.

There’s always going to be you know, research is not it’s PubMed is not the Bible. And the PubMed, it’s like you have, it looks at one factor. It doesn’t look at all the overtime colors. Okay, like testosterone, they haven’t said testosterone was dangerous, while we look at the population that that that article was revoked, that was retracted, because the population they did the studies on was vets with post-traumatic stress syndrome from the war. No wonder it caused, you know, they come up with testosterone causes cardiovascular disease in older men. Why? Because they know, testosterone heals. So that study was completely false.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I find that there’s a paradox with studies because you know, I’m trained as a licensed chiropractic physician, and I’ve done Functional Medicine and niche and genomics and researching the whole medical curriculum, they put high emphasis, then I gotta give praise to two peer-reviewed studies to be able to validate and have scientific data. So there’s a hot, huge emphasis on it, but then you in what you’ve just said, Shawn, with the gaming of the results, or the unbind, the biased sample sizes are the samples are the dependent variables and independent variables have what they want to results to show or if it’s not significant above and beyond the control or placebo, they can really gamify the results to dictate what the pharmaceutical approach will be.

And they end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater, I think but so many things that I would love to address. And I could probably get you on part two because I’m really interested to know about the phenol sulphation tie-in. Because I think that’s a lot of areas where just it’s Uncharted water for a lot of those in the know, let alone those that aren’t in the know. And I’d love to get your insight on that. But back to your original story, and then how you got into what you got into. I guess it’s a blessing, if you look at it, as you had to go through all of those trials and tribulations and background experiences in order to not only heal yourself but to be a healer to other people, as well. And with that being said, now you have an approach where people come to see you, and you look for where those metabolic bottlenecks are.

So I guess maybe if we can succinctly explain when someone comes to you, how, how are you putting weight on how you’re figuring out where those bottlenecks are? Because I know you’re a big proponent of the limbic center wind-up, and how much the autonomic nervous system revs the battery, if you will, no matter what’s going on metabolically with those bottlenecks.

And then, of course, there’s their own subjective feedback and what they feel is working and not working. Then most importantly, the objective numbers that are telling us the story. And then knowing the genomics and the map The Blueprint, which I would agree with, in the sense that it really gives you an idea how those pathways work, and reverse engineering, what needs to be done environmentally nutritionally mindset wise Olympic Lee to be able to come up with a game plan. I guess the question is, Shawn, how do you balance all of those variables? To be able to unlock those metabolic bottlenecks?

Shawn Bean: What I’ve come down to is, is it mean, I mean, teaching this to other clinicians is use the minimal testing necessary, okay? Like, it depends on economics people come into me, and then yourself included with like these mountains, labs, right? The number one thing that you and I both know is the answers there, okay? And the old saying is to listen to the patient, they’ll tell your diagnosis. And that’s so true. But unfortunately, a lot of clinicians, you know, have their eyes set on one thing. So, you know, you come in, like, a person comes in with Hashimotos because they’re coming from stop the thyroid madness.

And the next thing, you know, it’s like, they’re leading you down this rabbit hole, when it’s like, by the way, tell me about your relationship. You know, and then you find out that that person has been, you know, has, for whatever reason been sexually abused by bosses and, you know, had male problems and like, you’re, you know, you’re pointing the rabbit down the rabbit hole here. Okay. Do you think healing your thyroids? No, I said, you need to go and see a counselor. So number one, taking detailed history is crucial. Okay, and just listening. Usually, within the first 15 minutes, it’s like, they give you the mound, you know, it’s like, Listen, I don’t need to see that you have Bartonella this that I just, do you have wine, yes or no? What do you have in your past?

Okay, if we know it’s there, then that’s great. But then it’s like going, it’s like, I’ve been treated for Lyme. I’ve been treated for this. I’ve been treated for that. Then all sudden, you will start asking said, So tell me about your house? Well, we had a leak, and he started going back to the history, then you’re like, then you start to see the symptoms get worse about six months later. And it’s like, Have you been checked for mold? Or fungus or anything like Long goes? Like, No, I said, you went to a Lyme doctor, right?

Yeah. I said, do you understand mycotoxins cross-react with antibodies to line and Epstein Barr and site omega? So if you have cross-reactivity from mycotoxins, guess what, until you address the underlying cause, all those other factors aren’t going to work. Okay, you’re pouring water into the bucket that has holes in it. So basically, what I do when a client comes in, is take a detailed history and try to find out what’s the biggest, as a clinician The best advice I can give another clinician, ask them what treatments worked in the past, and what hasn’t. And that will lead you to potential pathways that are being disrupted. If those pathways are disrupted, then you know, the potential causes of what those pathways are linked back to. Okay. And if you are never clinicians are not sure.

Dr. Ben Lynch does a wonderful job on his pathway planner showing you were showing the pathways of what inhibits it, or you can go through PubMed. And that’s how I learn is I didn’t learn through reading, you know, Dr. Google, I learned from 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of hours looking at studies on rats, because the reason being is there’s no political gain in those. And actually, the rat’s studies, their functionality, not their actuality, link to humans a lot.

Dr. Joel Rosen: And, I’m sorry to interrupt, but I wanted to give a good comment on one of the things you mentioned, as your insight on this. A lot of people will, ask them, hey, what worked, what didn’t work, and then putting a protocol together, and seeing that whatever you did, made them worse. Maybe make a comment on the utility of that, because I think a lot of people end up just stirring up their limbic center and going into overdrive again, with their, with what you did, that stimulated this response that can it’s only results, you know, you don’t want to put a motion on those results. And it would stimulate a response that’s thought of as negative. It’s actually very, very helpful for the clinician, more so than if nothing happened whatsoever.

And maybe even a little bit with there’s just a little bit but I’m not sure um How important that information is number one, and number two, how important it is for that person to not let that negative result or that perceived negative result, along with perceived negative results in blood testing because I see this all the time with my patient base is they get a test back, and I always have hesitant to send it to them before we’ve met, because they have this whole story in their head of Oh, my God, it’s getting worse, I can’t believe it.

And then the things that we’re doing might make them temporarily more inflamed or temporarily kicking up the ocean floor because you’re turning on pathways that have had challenges. If so, I guess the question is, how important is it for both the clinician and the patient alike to understand that this is, is really a hypothesis, of physiology, and there are lots of 40,000 views, but moving parts, and you really have to think of it as nonemotional information versus anything else.

Shawn Bean: I think the best piece of advice there is, is it, this is what I tell a client, I said, Listen, it’s not the fact that you have all these things. It’s the fact that we don’t have all these things I’m concerned about. Okay. And when I tell them, I said, Look at all these imbalances these help explain a lot of your symptoms. This is good news. Okay, when it comes back, and there’s nothing, that’s why I started worrying. And when you do that, what that does is that puts them at ease.

Okay? Because that way, oh, my God looks wrong, me, you got to change the mentality. Instead, look, what’s wrong with you, is explaining what’s going on. So don’t look at it as a bad thing. Look at it as a good thing. And it’s the as I mentioned before, it’s what I don’t see, that concerns me. And there have been probably four cases out of the 1000s that I dealt with, that I went to the doctors and I said, Listen, I cannot give any kind of medical justification for what this person is, is feeling. Okay.

And, I gave them the benefit of the doubt, diversity, three, this, you know, I gave them an option, the optimization. And I said, Listen, this needs to be referred out to, I feel that this case needs to be heard out to a psychiatrist. And guess what, they come back with one child since? Again, there were only three cases out of several 1000s. Well, what happened? Just curious about what happens.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Though, when you want to implement something that you’ve pretty much narrowed down to this pathway or that pathway, and you implement that strategy? And there might be a short glitch. Or there might be a little bit of a response? How do you damage control, I guess, or what do you do from there?

Shawn Bean: Yeah. First of all, one of the things I do is, is when I make recommendations, I always tell them, so listen, by using this submit, we may be stressing this pathway, and these are the things you may experience. And I think having that in-depth knowledge, such as yourself and other practitioners, taking the extra, you know, a minute to explain them will put them at ease, you know, and you don’t want and some people, you know, that are buyer hackers, they want to go down that rabbit hole, you know, if you give this happens, like, listen, I said, Listen, you have a comp gene expression, where certain can sometimes impact comped to some degree. So these are some of the symptoms you might experience because you know, you’re not breaking down your adrenaline properly.

Okay, and as a result, we can offset that if your adrenaline goes up these are some things that you can do, you know, use Boswellia or maybe you’ve seen or worked on that GABA system and work on the braking system okay to try to pull you out of it because I’m one of the things I found I use it to the Rescue Remedy is bought frankincense has been a Rescue Remedy because it kind of like quells the inflammation like right there.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Without any other side effects or…

Shawn Bean: Without any other side effects right? That’s one of the things I found lavender may be another input with bots well yeah, you know people are reacting to this oil that oil then we know that they have a phenol linic acid they have a phenol issue that phenol sulfotransferase issue they have a Celeste late issue. So then you have to work from that, you know, then you have to work from that angle. Then maybe use bots Well yeah. internally with a capsule rather than coming through an essential oil.

Dr. Joel Rosen:  Because very slow like no dose is low enough before you start to notice response is that your philosophy is to slow and low or just try to get right in that bell-shaped curve right away. What’s your philosophy on that?

Shawn Bean: You always want to have a buffering system in place before you start to add the gas pedal, I always try to isolate the potential variables, because you’re never going to get all. But you can somewhat, you know, prep them, like maybe there. I said, Listen, one of the one of the things we’re going to help you with is how about we help you better tolerate stress? Okay, so then we work on that we work on them. That’s why I like clinical documentation, When you have an organic acid test, you have a little bit of what’s going on in the playing field.

It’s not like you’re digging, it’s not like you’re digging on, you know, you’re trying to break ground for a new building, and you’re digging any fine stones, where you go in blind it and you buy, you buy a plot, that you had no idea that was built over top of a garage, you know, tires, or you don’t know what you’re getting yourself into.

So clinical testing, is, you know, one of the things I advocate because I like to see who the enemy is, I like to see, how can we litigate any of these potential issues. You know, like, if a person’s endodontic, it’s like, you may want you may not want to give CBD oil. Because if you give CBD oil an anodized person can make more antibiotics, because on the dopamine pathway, even though they have flare up, or how many times you’ve seen people that were schizophrenic they give you they go out to the dopamine pathway when the schizophrenia was actually from the glutamate pathway.

Dr. Joel Rosen: So with medications to write like, oh, SSRIs they’re in the I’ve always said they’re in the wrong. Wrong arena.

Shawn Bean: Arena apps. Yeah. If you do like an organic acid test, you have somewhat of an indication of who you’re dealing with, you’re not going in blind. I mean, I always tell people, I, you know, when people come to me and said, Let’s stop playing guessing games and put the nail in the coffin. Okay, you’ve been dealing with this too long. Okay, there are about four simple tests, they’ll utilize. And once we know what goes going on there, then we know, it’s like one of the biggest tests, I use the Omega Quan.

Dr. Joel Rosen: I was gonna ask you, when you started to talk about I wrote it down here, when you started to talk about the local trains in the before, if you’re doing the Omega quant, so maybe tell the listeners, what the Omega quantity is.

Shawn Bean: Yeah, the Omega quant has been the I always tell my clients, I said this will be the best $100 you’ll ever spend. Because if you don’t stabilize the PG one, PG two, and PG three, and you don’t know there are hidden fires that are going on, okay, people come from client line mold EBV this, that and everything in you know, in the kitchen sink, failing treatment, you do any find out that the racket Donek acid levels are 42. I said, you know, there are three or four fuels to the fire multiplied by a factor of 10. Okay, because you can see or you see a person with, you see a person with a J, one C of like 5.3. But then you do a red blood cell test and see that the arachidonic acid levels are the ratio.

Dr. Joel Rosen: 30 to one off the charts. It’s not even showing.

Shawn Bean: It’s I mean, four to seven, the goal, okay, four to seven is my goal. There are certain labs I don’t like because they don’t follow clinical criteria. Some of the ranges go from like 12 to like 125. I’m like, your break, you know, and I ran side by side, and they’re pretty close. But if the laboratories are giving that information to clinicians, they’re priming, they’re priming false information.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. Curious, curious, sorry to interrupt you as Have you been pairing that with the inflammation test that looks at thromboxane levels as well? Are you just doing it on its own?

Shawn Bean: I’m kind of just doing it on its own. And we find out that you know, it arachidonic and sometimes the arachidonic acid is is, you know, may not use fish oils, you may want to use things that inhibit that local training pathway.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, going right to SPMs or you are.

Shawn Bean: More so I’ll go to like Boswellia frankincense practice will inhibit that pathway, then that pathway blocks up into the phenol sulfotransferase pathway to so the phenols actually triggered the local trains.

Dr. Joel Rosen: So it’s so interesting because that’s a sort of a newer pathway that I have sort of added to the whole.

Shawn Bean: Yeah, that pathway is the COVID pathway. Right? That’s how I’ve been addressing COVID. There is a wonderful practitioner name Doug Kaufman. He’s been dealing with mycotoxins and Microtonic osis for 35 years. And he said the same thing. Your treat COVID is coming in when you treat them antifungals they’re getting better, the long haulers and that’s how I address them.

I address every person coming in as you know, once I find because as I mentioned before COVID hitch drops the secretary IGA your Bifidobacterium levels go down, that opens up the door to any of the pre-existing infections or exposures that you may have mycotoxins we know through clinical research that at least 43%, up to 50% or more of the buildings have in the United States have been or have water damage.

Okay, so your immune system was able to keep it in check. Now, since this COVID, it unleashed the monster that your body’s been keeping in, and it’s releasing these viruses and activating these lines, I’ve had cases where people had water damage 15 years ago, right? When we look at it, and like you had it all the time, but your body was just keeping in check your immune system was keeping the lock on the cage. Now the monster is out, okay.

Dr. Joel Rosen: you like the organic acid, the Omega check Dutch and there’s a fourth one that you’re doing.

Shawn Bean: Or if there is clinical evidence of the, you know, water damage done, then I’ll go to the My Mic and labs, my Michael Labs is a blood test. It’s the one that’s a peer-reviewed article, it’s based upon clinical evidence. There has been controversy on the urinary tests that you have to take multiple samples throughout the day, to get something experienced to get clinical documentation. Because mycotoxins are, you know, wax and wane, but if it’s in the blood, you can’t, you can’t refute that.

Okay, it’s there. You know, and it’s like the same way you and it’s like, mycotoxins are like 1/10 of a micron, which is the size of viruses. When was the last time that you use a urine test to look to see have EBV? Right. And this, when you start talking like this, it’s like, wow, that makes sense. Now, I’m not disputing the fact that there could be clinical relevance to it. But I have shifted, and the reason being was is, if you have a glutathione deficiency, if you have an oxidative stress issue, you can’t get it out. It’s trapped in the tissue. So if you use the blood, you don’t need to do the proof, you don’t need to put that person at risk of doing a glutathione challenge, okay? I’ve had people that have been sent to the hospital. As a result of that, I mean.

Dr. Joel Rosen: As a challenge. mycotoxin test is you’re, you’re doing.

Shawn Bean: if you know that the person can’t recycle glutathione and you give them glutathione what’s going to happen, you’re gonna have a paradoxical effect. You’re gonna have, you know, you’re gonna have a major herx That person has adrenal insufficiency on top of it, and you could have an adrenal crisis on your hands. So by using the blood, you don’t have to do the prevocational test. You don’t have to do Asana, you don’t have to do anything, just go get blood done. And then not only does that it tells you we’re reacting to so if you come up negative on the IgG, but then you light up like a Christmas treat on the IGE didn’t know you’re dealing with mast cell.

We’re on a urine test. You don’t know if you’re having an immune response or a mast cell response from it. So if you know that you have a Gliotoxin that has a mast cell response, then you know, if you go out to the Gliotoxin, you have to support that. I have a couple of people right now that have Gliotoxin I moved them to singular because what Singulair does is Singulair is used and guess what? acid or aspirin tuck, Oxford aspirin poisoning. So if we know that the phenol sulfotransferase pathway is overloaded, you know there could be high Swiss leadership. So it’s less late is an issue. Then they use the singular offset. And the problem is, that’s why people don’t respond and the history means the problem is not the histamines. It’s local training that they’re responding to.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I got all these notes, Shawn and I want to be respectful for our time. I got it, I got actually have another appointment coming up here. But if you’d be willing to do a part two, because I got so much more questions to ask you, I definitely want to go down the rabbit hole of the phenol sulfur pathways. And talking about just the additional layers of the onion bottlenecking. And just go a little bit further down these rabbit holes, they’d love to have you back.

So I’ll save that parting question Till we meet again. But I guess a good parting question might be, let’s say someone’s listening to this, and it is getting somewhat sophisticated. And I do feel like a lot of the people we see have had to become sophisticated because their doctors haven’t done the work for them. And they’re right up in the pilot seat helping to fly the plane. But with that being said, what do you think with everything that you’ve said, so far in maybe less than five minutes, is the best recommendation you can give to someone who’s listening to this that thinks, you know what, it’s insurmountable, I can’t overcome this, I’m never gonna meet with a Shawn or Joel, and I don’t my doctors don’t understand this, what would be the best advice you would give to them to give them a head start on on their recovery process?

Shawn Bean: The first thing I would do in that scenario is assess your environment, assess your environment, work on your water intake, you’re drinking out of plastic bottles, do the simple things. First, the foundational work, okay, get out in the sun. Without the sun, you don’t create sulfate. Without a proper diet, you know, go organic, the best you can. The other thing is, is the thoughts we think the air we breathe, the water we drink, and the food we eat. And also get around a community that is going to support you get around a community that is, you know, a phone call away. To have that support. One of the things that we run into as clinicians and also individuals is a lack of community support and family support. And without that family support and community, it’s going to make the survival.

And also, if you do find the clinician, find a clinician that merges with you. Okay, that you click with, if you’re not getting the right buys for them, don’t waste time. Okay, you’ll know right off the bat. And, you know, I find a clinician that is more known, we need Lyme specialist, meaning traditional medicine, but find one that looks at the bigger picture. Okay, not just oh, genetics or this, that, and everything. It’s amazing too.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Because of the sophisticated and technical and 30 40,000 Few foot intricacies that are going on here. At the end of the day, no matter what, no matter how good your protocol is, or your built protocol specifically for them that’s ever dynamically changing, if you use the word protocol, is the fact that all of the things you just said, will not all the things that you identified will not work if you don’t do the things you just said. Right.

Which is amazing, because that’s where you say, Well, you got to get to the psychologists or psychiatrists to figure out what’s going on here. Because at the end of the day, we’ve identified what’s wrong, we’re not missing a magic pill or magic supplement or a magic test. There are these other things that you’re missing, that you’re not doing that is free. And they’re not always easy, right?

Shawn Bean: No, and everybody’s trying to look for that magic pill, that magic bottle, that magic practitioner, the person who’s in the limelight, okay, has the biggest website has the fanciest Tiktok or whatever. And sometimes it could be fine, that little natural path that was shoved in the corner on a mom polytype shop that just has this basic knowledge that has been profound. You know, maybe just one of my severe lines, severe mold, Canada, wintertime, go to the tanning salon three times a week, what happens is that your Msh is down antidiuretic hormone down steady because our symptoms got better.

That’s because he was lacking sunlight. And that turned on the mitochondria and started the whole process but a jumpstart monitor. So as a clinician, we just want to you know, I have a love-hate relationship with functional medicine. Personally, I think a lot of practitioners do a good job. I think a lot of times are turning mole hills and mountains where we should be turning mountains into molehills. That’s one of the biggest things I see. In fact, Internal Medicine going today is they’re trying to solve.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, I mean listening in their defense, they haven’t gone through the trials and tribulations of your own health journey, or had enough miles on the odometer of the sophistication, I guess you would call that wisdom of understanding that, okay. It’s the glue that holds this together. It’s not the parts. Anyways, I gotta keep this for part two. I appreciate your time. We’ll be in contact with each other so that we get that part to go I appreciate your time and I look forward to our next conversation.

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Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their health back. And I had to do an inventory on what number this is morally, this is number seven. And there’s always new information, especially when you go on a sabbatical when you’re in research, and you’re looking at what’s going on, and all that good stuff. I’m sure everyone knows who you are.

But just in case they don’t, I just wanted to mention that you are the organizer and the producer, and the founder of the root cause protocol, as well as the magnesium advocacy group. And really, I believe your mission morally, is to dispense the truth on what’s going on in the world, and what’s going on with mineral balancing. And maybe you can just sort of piggyback from there.

Morley Robbins: Yeah, no, I appreciate the intro. And oh, my gosh, seven, seven conversations. That’s amazing. I, I like to separate fact, from fiction. And I think what dominates the worlds of healing and nutrition is a lot of fiction, a lot of narrative. And people don’t realize that. And so it’s been an amazing process of discovery over the last 15 years to see, what the literature says because I regard that as a will a bedrock of reality. Because if you’re going to uncover some uncomfortable truths, you’re going to publish it. And there’s a lot of goals, and then and then now hills, and I’ve been blessed enough to be able to identify a lot of articles. I came across a piece of paper that I put together, it was February of this year. And it was top 100 articles that I had read.

And I just wanted to challenge myself. And I think I did like 65 just by memory alone. And I’ve been working to fill out the rest of the other 35. But you know, it’s there about 25 or 30 authors who I’ve come to rely on, and they’re all truthers. They’re all really committed to making sure that people know that the cold hard reality of what really runs the body, what runs the planet, if you will, in terms of metabolic standpoint, it has been fascinating to kind of weave that together in a tapestry, and help people understand what’s going on.

Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s awesome. I know one of your sayings. And you’ve mentioned the story about how when you asked noted research, and I don’t remember who it was, what’s new, and he mentioned to you it’s not what’s new, it’s what’s enduring. And what’s great is that I would have been more skeptical to think that newer produced research would be to stand the test of time and endure because of the politics and the gaming and the motivation behind the research. But it sounds like the research is still enduring as it trudges through time, I guess, is that correct?

Morley Robbins: Absolutely true. No, it’s, it’s interesting. I mean, researly evolved during the course of the 19th and 20th centuries, and now the 21st century. But it’s, it still has this bedrock of commitment to what’s really going on. I think things did change, though, during the Reagan era, when the funding for research moved away from the government and went more toward Big Pharma.

A lot of research is being funded by the fox that’s guarding the henhouse. And like, we’ve got to be careful about the conclusions we draw from that. But for the most part, it is this paragon of stable truth that we can rely on.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, and I guess it’s you know who the author is. And once they’ve established their credibility, you’re more relying on the truth of that. So right, so one of the things that we’ve been meaning to touch base on for a while, is the PacM enzyme and how volatile and pivotal that is for everything that goes on in the body. So maybe give the listeners who even if they haven’t followed, followed all six previous ones of these ones, but why, why it fits so nicely in the jigsaw of this mosaic.

Morley Robbins: It’s interesting. There’s a theme around blue when it comes to copper. We’ve talked about the blue protein, so Reuleaux plasmon, we’ve talked about the blue complex, which is complex for of the mitochondria. We’ve talked about the locus Cyrillus the Blue Dot, which is at the top of our brainstem on either side, there’s literally a blue dot that’s full of copper that’s critical for maintaining our, health and well-being. And I’ve often thought that there was a blueprint, but I wasn’t quite sure what it was.

And so my first awareness of the importance of a blueprint, if you will, goes back to 2010. I read the book mastering leptin, a great book, and talked about, the hormone that tells us to stop eating. It’s like I’ve had enough. But what people may not know is that if we have too much insulin in our body, because we have insulin resistance, or the insulin overpowers the leptin, and so when there’s insulin resistance, we’re just going to keep eating. And that’s, that’s a serious problem. That’s, that’s behind a lot of the weight gain and obesity issues that people have around the world. But it really begs the question, well, why are these? Why are these hormones working? Right? But why is there insulin resistance?

And so if I were to give you a toy right now, be kind of hard because there’s a couple of 100 miles in between us, but let’s say I handed you a toy, and I forgot to put it, put a battery in it. After a little while, you’d stop playing with it. And if we went clinical, we’d say well, Joel is suffering from playtime resistance, not resistance, that the toy doesn’t work. And because it’s missing a battery? Well, it turns out that insulin is just like a little toy. It needs a battery, it needs to be turned on.

And I didn’t know I mean, like I said, I’ve been studying the hypothalamus and some of the neuro Hepta peptides that are produced and regulated out in the hypothalamus. Going back to 2010, I was somebody that was just fascinated by this part of the brain. And it’s, you know, it’s where electrical energy becomes chemical energy. And that’s where all the master regulatory hormones are things that like, run the adrenals and run the thyroid and run a lot of things in our body. It’s sort of a who’s who of neuroendocrine chemistry.

And so I didn’t really appreciate what was involved with an enzyme called the PAM enzyme, spelled PM. But it stands for a big word. It’s called peptidyl, glycine, and alpha-emanating monooxygenase. Like, wow, that’s a mouthful. So what it’s referring to is peptides that end with a glycine group. And they’re always on what’s called the C terminal. And so a protein chain has an n-term terminal and a c-term. And the C terminal is always next to a glycine. amino acid is the way Mother Nature designed it.

And what this Pam enzyme does is it goes after the glycine peptide with the glycine at the end, it cuts off the C terminal, the carboxyl-terminal that’s carbon with oxygen and hydrogen takes that off and then puts on an aiming group, which is nitrogen and to hydrogen and turn turns it on. It’s like literally going from black and white to suddenly the lights are on.

And when I first started studying this enzyme, there were 13 neuro peptides. You know, things like TRH, thyroid regulating hormone and CRH cortical Tropen regulating hormone and oxytocin and vasopressin and these big blockbuster hormones. Well, there are 13, Gateway 243 43, gateway to over 70, over 70, gateway to 279 and 279 Recently gateway to 127 of these signaling peptides that are just like our cell phones. We use cell phones to communicate with each other. Right?

And if we don’t have power, and if we don’t have bars, are we you and I can’t talk to each other right now? And these signaling peptides are the same way. So insulin, leptin Greenlane, and all these amazing hormones are signaling peptides. And they don’t work unless they’re turned on. Now the part that’s absolutely amazing is it. I originally thought that, that the payments, I only worked in the hypothalamus. So if we drill a hole here, and until the hole here, we’re gonna get to the hypothalamus. And it’s the size of an ottoman. It’s got 64 chambers, it’s, it’s absolutely amazing what happens there. But I really thought it was just restricted to the hypothalamus. Well, it turns out, it’s not just the hypothalamus, it’s the pituitary. It’s the whole endocrine system, its adrenals, its organs, its bones, is all of our tissue needs to have access to this Pam enzyme.

And think of it this way. The body makes what are called Pro hormones. They’re not active, but they’re in a state where they can be made active. So think of it as think of it as parked cars, on a highway. They’re there, they’re parked, they can’t be used, but they’re available. And the payment time is what turns them on. So they can get on the autobahn, and start to do their thing. And what really happens is the hormone-like insulin. When it gets when it becomes bioactive, when it becomes fully active, it’s able to fit into its receptor perfectly. And that everything is all about making sure that there’s a perfect connection between the hormone and its receptor. Because what’s the hormone doing? It’s got signals, right? It’s got to download its payload, it’s got to inform the cell and the tissue about what needs to happen. Well, if it’s not active, it doesn’t have the right shape. It’s not hydrophobic. It it’s half-life is shortened because it’s not active.

And so it really compromises the body’s ability to communicate and regulate when the PAM enzyme is not working. Well, what makes the PAM enzyme so special? Well, it has very finite requirements. It’s got to have copper. It’s got to have oxygen, monooxygenase. Oh, it’s got to work on the oxygens are there. It’s got to have a score bait out that ascorbic acid ascorbate is very different. When you look at ascorbate, you’ll see a bunch of oxygens available on the outside of the molecule.

And it needs the right pH. And what will surprise people to find out is that it prefers acidic pH, not alkaline pH. So if you’ve got a kangen machine, you might want to unplug it right now. Because maybe you don’t need to be doing that. But the thing is, this enzyme is the blueprint. I’m convinced of it because it is activating 100 of these signaling peptides all over the body. And, the thing is that we got to really be mindful of that. And be aware that, well, if insulin can’t get into its receptor, and it’s signal, what’s going on with the sugars, well, then the sugar starts to build out, the insulin starts to build up. And then there’s this cascade of dysfunction that follows it. And one of the most important aspects of that is that when sugars do build up, people can go into a state of what’s called hyperglycemia. High blood sugar. Well, a group of Russian scientists figured out in 2019 that if if the body does become hyperglycaemic, it affects the copper protein. So Reuleaux plasmon Ansarullah plasmon

is the master antioxidant protein that runs our body and it blows up and the copper comes leaking out. And what doctors have been trained to do is blame the copper for the rising sugar, when in fact it’s the sugar that’s affecting the conformational structure of the Cirilo plasma If no one’s thinking about that, no one’s thinking about the fact that await the insulin isn’t signaling, right? Because it’s not the right shape can’t get into the receptor, and then that’s gonna affect all the other downstream. And so, think of it as a Russian doll. Right? This is insulin was a peptide over here called chromogranin. A, you may never have heard of it CGA. Well, if CGA doesn’t get activated, insulin can’t get activated. And so there’s a whole family of peptides in between chromogranin, a, and insulin that all need to be activated.

And it’s, it’s like, oh, my gosh, it’s beautiful. It’s elegant. But it’s, it’s a lot more complicated than we realized. And so all of the focus is on insulin, no one’s talking about glucagon, no one’s talking about GLP. No one’s talking about all these other intermediary hormones that are critically important, they may not be as big as insulin. But there is the importance of insulin. And so here’s the part that I think will surprise you. And then I think there’s a part that will shock you. So the part that will surprise you, and you and your listeners is to find out that this Pam enzyme is not taught in Doctor school. I’ve talked to dozens of doctors, nobody knows what I’m talking about. And I don’t bring it up to be to embarrass anyone, I’m just like, this is a really important part of our physiology.

And there’s a big blank slate out there about what’s going on and what this thing does. And so the fact that the doctor doesn’t know about it, and the fact that you know, our clients and patients don’t know about it, that’s really significant. But the part that I learned yesterday, which really surprised me was that there’s, as I’ve said, there’s a protein chain that has two ends to it. There’s an end terminal and a C terminal, where the end terminal is agnostic about whether the protein is turned on or not. The C terminal is very much interested in knowing whether it’s on or off. All of the assays of blood markers looking at proteins, hormones, and signaling peptides are based on the N N terminal. None are on the C term. So basically, we’re getting information, we’re getting blank information about these are all parked cars on a highway that can’t be driven. And we’re making critical decisions about people’s health based on incomplete information.

And I think that’s shocking, that, that the entire infrastructure of medicine is based on the no one knows about this enzyme. And no one is testing the right end of the peptide. And I just I’m like, Oh my gosh, this is mind-blowing. And then you realize that the PAM enzyme really is the blueprint. Because it’s it’s activating all these signaling peptides that are communicating, saying, how are you doing what’s going on? Do you need an adjustment here or there, you know, you as a chiropractor know how important adjustments are. And that’s what the signaling peptides are doing constantly adjusting their signal, adjusting the information based on what’s happening.

And it’s all based on the intelligence of copper. And it’s like, a complete component of physiology that no one is talking about. No one is aware of me, there are people at Hopkins and the University of Connecticut’s medical standard that are very well steeped in this, but it’s not mainstream at all. We are there with the professionals, with the lay people, and then we find out the laboratories or even testing the right form of these peptides. So I just, I find it. absolutely mind-blowing. And I appreciate the chance to have this conversation too, to kind of tease it out a little bit and help people understand why it’s so important.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s awesome. Thank you for the work that you do to tease that out. Morley, as far as a couple of things come into my brain when you’re saying this so no one’s talking about it, but it’s there for the research. So are there for the finding the articles that are being published about it? So what sort of as a side question, what do you feel happened? In swear, this research that doesn’t just get to go out and you know, an email, and then next thing, you know, it appears in a publication, it’s got to be approved and so forth. But when it is why is it not being taken by the baton and passed to the next level? What goes wrong with that?

Morley Robbins: Wonderful question. I’ve thought about that many times, I’ve just come to realize that there’s a Chinese wall, between the research labs in the classrooms. And the adage, it takes 40 years before the bench research gets into the bedside. And I don’t know what that’s about. I mean, it’s just, it’s almost like a whole generation of practitioners needs to fall off before the next generation will pick it up. Right? But it’s like, it’s, it doesn’t pass the logic test doesn’t. If we, if we learned that this enzyme is so critical, why would we want everyone to know about this, and, you know, people always challenging me about the term that you and I have talked about it, the term of copper toxicity, when you know, I find it changed my whole narrative around it.

Now, I’ve decided that the right copper is toxic to Big Pharma profit, that’s really what it is, copper does so much inside our body, to create energy, clear exhausts, you know, its colors, everything that connects everything. And now we find out this profound function of activating all of the endocrine and exocrine and paracrine and neuroendocrine and enteroendocrine, so it’s like, it’s just unbelievable numbers of signaling peptides that need to be turned on. And, and it’s, it’s not, what people need to realize is some of these peptides, up-regulate some downregulate. And they’re in communication with each other. You know, so, glucagon is supposed to be communicating with adiponectin. And, you know, with insulin, angiotensin is connecting with adiponectin, as well as like, leptin and ghrelin are supposed to be communicating with each other. But if there’s too much insulin, it doesn’t happen.

And so it’s, it’s just this incredible menagerie of chemistry that needs to be active, not parked on the side of the highway. And I think, for the listeners to understand, despite the chest being out there that were anemic and copper toxic, the truth is just the opposite. But we live in a world where glyphosate is a dominant feature of farming, and glyphosate is a perfect copper key later. Fructose is a dominant part of food processing. Well, fructose is a perfect copper key later, we live in a world where medicine is using antibiotics, and statins, very prevalently. And they have a huge effect on copper status. Well, when you start to combine all of that, and those are just four components, you begin to see the disappearing batteries inside your body.

And despite the appearance of this really sophisticated breakdown of the human body, it’s a body that’s missing its batteries. And then we’ve talked about it, copper is the general and iron is the foot soldier. And it’s no more sophisticated than that. You don’t need to be in the military general, there’s a difference between generals and foot soldiers. Generations have more brass, right? They’ve got more brass on their shoulder, well, that’s made of copper. But if you really want to clarify it, just picture the Battle of the bolts without padding.

That’s the impact of a general The reason why he was so important. He in two days, move 200 tanks and 200,000 men from going east to going north. At one point he was directing traffic. So that’s the power of a general and I think copper plays the exact same role inside our body. And if our environment can’t communicate with itself, both our internal environment, communicating with itself but also reacting to the external environment, well, then we can’t possibly expect to be in balance and be in homeostasis.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. So so if I’m listening to this, and I’m not understanding 100% of the science, but thinking that it really does sound like doom and gloom, as far as is this one of those instances where the broken clock is right to eat twice a day kind of thing morally, where the sense is where we do get enough. Like, why aren’t we dying like yesterday? Like, why? I mean, why? Like, how do we with this all being said, and Pam ends, I’m not basically charging these hormones to communicate? Why do we see improvements in longevity? And in some people and why, you know, I mean, I guess to play devil’s advocate, why are we?

Morley Robbins: Yeah, no, I think we have to, we have to draw a distinction between lifespan and health span, people may be living longer, but I don’t think they’re living better. I think there’s ample proof that we are a pretty sickly lot on this planet. When you begin to get into the statistics of the number of people who have metabolic syndrome, the number of people who have diabetes alone, heart disease is still the number one cause of death. Cancer is right on its heels, you begin to look at the impact that uric acid is having, in large part because of the level of fructose in our diet as well. This is not doom and gloom. This is trying to put an electron microscope on what’s the problem? Why are we why are we in this sea of metabolic dysfunction, and not understand what what’s going on?

And it’s because this enzyme is a critical component of our neuro chemistry and our physiology, and if it’s not working, then we will get diabetes, and we will get anxiety, and we will get osteoporosis. And we will get, you know, all sorts of physical ailments. And if you don’t know about copper, if you don’t, if you don’t understand the incredible power and impact of a bioavailable copper, then then the Merck manual makes sense. Oh, there are 20,000 Different forms of disease, and we just HAVE TO TINKER AWAY at each one.

Or we could begin to understand, oh, so we’ve got over 800 signaling peptides, and they all got to be fed with copper, and they know how to work. And that’s what the pioneering work of Richard means. And Betty Piper has assembled an amazing team of people when they were at Hopkins, and they went up to UConn Medical Center at the beginning of 2000. And they did some really important research in 2009 10, and 11. And the bottom line was that they were studying defects in the PAM gene.

And what happened to the expression of the PAM enzyme as a result of those defects? And they looked at the impact of copper deficiency, studying, you know, rats and mice. And what they found was that there was a parallel expression between whether there was a defective gene, or whether it was a copper deficient situation, then they did the most amazing thing they fed the rodents cover. And guess what happened? The enzyme turned right back on and was just fine. Thank you very much. And so I think, to dispel this idea of doom and gloom, no, this is to sharpen the focus on why we’re all struggling with our well-being. Because we didn’t know that the environment of Copper has been shrinking outside of our body and inside of our bodies. And we don’t have that copper.

And if we can’t make it bioavailable, then the body doesn’t communicate, the body can’t maintain its homeostasis, the body can’t regulate energy production, and clear the exhaust. And that’s really important to understand. So I think it it’s a case of we’ve been led to believe in disease, when in fact, while there are these incredibly sophisticated mechanisms of communication that just aren’t being fed properly, and our ancestors didn’t have the, the challenges, the toxins, the all the barriers to maintaining good health that we have in the modern era. And I think it’s important for people to realize just how central this one enzyme is to so much of what ails us.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it almost seems like the analogy I see is, is that I’ve been bitten by a venomous snake and the antidote is out there. But we’re searching high and low and selling other things that you To contain massive amounts of profit for the people that produce them to not give the actual anecdote that simple. And is is that a fair analogy?

Morley Robbins: Yeah, it is. In fact, it’s very fitting because all of the critters that have them know the bugs, the mosquitoes, the snakes, the scorpions, whatever. They have a very targeted focus. Their venom wipes out a key copper enzyme. It’s called superoxide dismutase. And what the venom depends on is the payments, I’m inside that critter.

And so the critters that are biting us aren’t faced with, the devastating loss of copper in their supply and their food supply. But the humans that they’re biting, are struggling to get the PAM enzyme to work to respond to the bite. That’s where all the controversy is. The Pam enzyme is alive and well in the critters that bite us. And it’s not so well in in the individuals. And this is all new information on even though I’ve been studying it for so long. It’s just been in the last few weeks, and I’ve really come to understand the enormity of it.

And Dr. Liz and I recently saw a great movie. If you haven’t seen it, I would encourage you to see it. It’s about Yogi Berra, a famous Yankee catcher, and it’s called it ain’t over. Very entertaining movie about his gifted baseball playing, it sort of been eclipsed because of his personality. People have forgotten what a great ballplayer he was. But he coined many phrases called Yogi isms, right? Well, he also coined a word called Simplexity. And I’ve taken it to heart. And I’ve, I really enjoy taking complex ideas and trying to boil them down into simple concepts that the average person can understand. Well, that’s what we’re talking about the Simplexity, of the PAM enzyme.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? It’s amazing to see you know, from a spectator sport, your evolution, as you go further and further down these rabbit holes, just the implications that having bioavailable Copper has beyond I mean, you know, from, from, I guess a general sense, the four main things of energy production and clearing, exhausts and supporting the immune system, and then also supporting other reactions. But actually seeing all the minutia of why, and continuing to focus further and further and further.

So I just want to summarize a couple of things. Because one of the things that I see a lot that you’ve taught is the lack of bioavailable copper being loaded into circular plasm. And having a percent that is not available. And I put a lot of emphasis morally on the vitamin A to D ratio so that the A can help load in the copper into that circular plasm. But now, from what you’re saying, If I’m interpreting correctly, when we have hyperglycemia, that also causes sort of the exodus of the copper being loaded into soil plasm. That Is that a fair statement?

Morley Robbins: That can work against it? Right. So think of it this way, there are two master enzymes that load copper into enzymes, to these enzymes, low copper and other are called cupro enzymes. And they had the letters ATP, seven A, and ATP seven, B. Seven V is called Wilson’s enzyme, and that’s the enzyme that loads copper to make some Rouleau plasma. And as you noted, you got to have retinol. It’s got to be turned into what’s called retinoic acid. It’s actually a hormone and searching man for diseases retinoic acid requires the PAM enzyme. I haven’t found that yet, but I think it does.

And so though, the pump needs the retinoic acid in order to load the copper into the super-low plasma protein. And as you just noted, wow, if we’ve got a sugar problem, that hyperglycemia according to the researchers in Russia, it’s going to it’s going to cause a problem with the structure and function of solar plasm. And the copper is going to leak out. Okay, that’s a big issue. The other other pump is called ATP seven called the minkeys enzyme. And that enzyme is loading all the other A copper enzymes, an incredible number of copper enzymes. But what’s Especially important is that ATP seven A is what loads the copper into the pan enzyme.

And so you want to make sure that you’ve got the retinol in your diet, to activate the pumps to get the copper into the critical enzymes that are running and regulating the body. And so it just becomes this house that Jack built a series of dominoes that have all got to be lined up. But if you don’t have copper in your diet, if you don’t have retinol in your diet, those are two key components that are going to work against the body’s natural ability to keep itself in balance, but also maintain its energy production and immune system, as you know, and so on and so forth.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, right. And then so to follow that through, where it I always say it becomes just this major Domino, vicious cycle that gathers momentum. So if, if the hyperglycaemic tendency, and the person that’s taking which maybe you can maybe comment and remind the readers after I finished my statement that the nuclear receptor competes with DNA, and if we have too much storage, D, all of that stuff that goes on. But when hyperglycemia states happen, and we have high fructose corn syrup and everything that’s going on, then that causes the copper to come out of the spirulina plasm. But furthermore, it causes the derangement of the PAM enzyme, when we need insulin the most.

Morley Robbins: Absolutely, yeah, I mean, again, we’ve been trained to believe in a disease called insulin resistance. Okay, again, it’s like a toy that doesn’t have a battery. If the insulin hasn’t been turned on. If one of the precursor peptides chromogranin hasn’t been turned on, and then worked its way up the chain of, of signaling peptides, well, then the sugars can’t be clear. Now, what’s interesting, there’s a famous copper researcher that we’ve talked about before, his name is Lesley Club a still actively publishing even though he’s, I think he’s almost 90 years old. Now. He just wrote an amazing article last fall, and it was October 2022. It’s almost a year ago now. But it’s called chronic copper deficiency. And he wrote an article back in 1986, about copper deficiency, and hyperglycemia. High blood sugar, that there is a relationship there. If copper is low, you have a propensity to be high sugar, high per glycemic.

And it makes no mention of the PAM enzyme, in part because the payments had barely been discovered. It was I think it was 82 or 83 when it was first really keenly understood. Well, it’s very likely he didn’t know about that at the time. But what he did know was that people who are copper deficient, have really compromised tolerance on glucose. They’re called glucose intolerant. They can’t, they just they can’t deal with the sugar, sugar becomes very reactive in their body.

And he made a point in this article from 96. He was alluding to a pediatric textbook from 1981. He said the most glucose-intolerant people on the planet are children with monkeys disease. And what that means is these children, most of whom died before they were three years old, their copper pump, ATP seven A doesn’t work. They can’t load copper into the enzymes. And when you can’t load copper into the enzymes, you can’t regulate iron, you can’t regulate oxygen, you can’t regulate sugar, you can’t regulate much of what’s incredibly important for our body. But the most glucose intolerant people are children with monkeys disease.

That was a lightbulb moment. When I read that it’s like a hippie, like a ton of bricks. It’s like, oh my gosh, that means that copper status is that the thick and the center of keeping the body in balance, particularly around sugar. And then when you find out that there’s very sophisticated signaling around that, and there’s a whole series of hormones that need to be at To live and turned on by the PAM enzyme that relies on this battery. And suddenly it’s like, oh, it’s so it’s a game changer in terms of understanding where the defect is and where the breakdown is in our body.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, amazing. So just a curious question. So I know when I do genomic test interpretations, I look at those ATP 718 ATP seven B, but also organized in that part of the pyramid Morleys the ATO x. Right. Is there any relationship with that is that my understanding is that that enzyme helps to deliver that to the ATP seven a and seven B. Is that accurate?

Morley Robbins: I think that might be right. I’m trying to remember if ATP antiques. Is that involved with the mitochondria as well?

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so it’s a copper metallic chaperone protein that is encoded by the ATX one gene. And it plays a key role in delivering copper from the cytosol to the transporters ATP seven, eight, and seven BT.

Morley Robbins: So then they would then at ato x A tox. Is what supplies copper to the other chaperones. Correct for the mitochondria. Right? So so the thing was, people need to know what’s a good way to shut down a detox. Platinum? What is platinum that cisplatin is used in cancer treatment? It’ll shut down a tox. And so what’s also important to know is that glyphosate ki lates copper out of the soil, so we don’t get access to it in our food. What is high fructose corn syrup? Do it block, CTR? One, that’s the front door. Do you look at CTR one?

Dr. Joel Rosen: I’ll have to make a note on it. I don’t see that’ll see that it’s the in the pyramid.

Morley Robbins: In that section, we’ll see TR one is the front door for letting copper into the cell. And if CTR one has been blocked because of fructose, and that’s the work of Myra Fields, back in the 1980s and 1990s. It’s a it’s a serious problem. And people don’t realize the subtle sophistication of copper metabolism, and how finely tuned it is.

But the Don’t, don’t think of it oh my gosh is more complicated, or it’s all a supply issue. You don’t have copper on the front end, that’s why all of these separate things and transport is starting to get affected. We’ve got to have a regular supply of copper. And that the most important message is to get get it out to the populace is that we need these critical nutrients, magnesium, copper, and the real B vitamins to really run the machinery of our body.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, So just as as an aside, I happen to have two or a homozygous snip on the eighth a tox one gene. And I think no matter what if we are all in this environment, and we all have these disruptors to copper metabolism like you’ve said high fructose corn syrup, glyphosate, iron, enriched filings, lack of retinol in our foods, incorporating too much vitamin D, all of the creating fear, like you’ve mentioned, all of these things, whether you have an A tox one gene or not, I what I’ve looked at is that you don’t need as much as those things to tip the balance of power to fatigue and exhaustion and burnout.

Morley Robbins: Yeah, you’re gonna be certainly compromised. But I think to me, I’m the camp that says these gene issues are not permanent. I think they’re more energy driven. And so we’re back into a chicken and egg situation, and what can we do to restore proper energy production that can begin to offset this allele, whatever, whatever the problem might be. And so I think that people need to realize that the research that that Dr Mainz and Dr. Piper did, and there are a husband and wife team, by the way, but they have done amazing research over the decades. They they clearly demonstrated that even if you did have a genetic issue with your PAM enzyme.

It can be recovered with proper copper supplementation. That’s an important message for people to know because the jeans appear very fixed and concrete and scary. And I think they are very malleable and they do respond On to changes in the environment, certainly the energetic environment especially.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, I agree and I, I use it as a blueprint. But at the end of the day,, your lifestyle and what we call the epigenetic factors are going to make those genes run. With the like, I always use the analogy, if a gene analogy is a two-lane highway, when it’s challenged the most and eight lanes highway when it’s not, you could still have a lot of backup on an eight-lane highway, and you could still have the clear edge of a two-lane highway as well. So so as far as the RCP goes, with your new uncovering of the importance of the pm enzyme, does it lead more lend more credence to the the stops and starts that you’ve already put in there? Or does it bring some new concepts into there as well?

Morley Robbins: That’s a great question. I don’t know that we have command of this just yet. On the on the surface, I don’t see changes, big changes certainly are not going to be coming forth. Because I think for whatever reason, we’ve got a very good grasp of it takes to rev up the engine. I think the what the PAM enzyme does is gives us a very clear understanding of where a major part of the problem takes place. I think what it’s also doing is underscoring the importance of proper supplementation, particularly around copper. And I think we’re increasingly skeptical about the prevalence of copper in the food system. And people need to realize that the nutrient tables that you’re relying on are providing information having been updated for a long time.

So it’s very lot of information there. And I think what we need is a regular steady stream of nutrients, which is what the protocol is all about. But I think what it also does, is underscores the importance of staying on top of the iron with blood donations, and the importance of releasing our fears of people. When I first started this work, I didn’t really understand the emotional side of it.

And I was blessed to be working with Rick Walter, who is a clinical psychologist and really had commanded that, and he really tried to pass that on to me. But I don’t think it’s been until the last few years that I really understood the power of the emotional side to affect the physical side. And so I would encourage people to realize that, oh, my gosh, I might have this problem, Gene. Well, what you also have is maybe a chronic Fear Index, and you’ve got to deal with that as well.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, it’s not. just the gene, though. I mean, it’s the test, right? It’s the test result. So they’ll have a test result, and they’re really into there. And I see and I would echo that sentiment is I have to reassure the patients that I work with, that they have everything they need and their power and their ability to heal to overcome this. And when you’re doing the proper principles, you can’t forget that concept of you got this and you know, because that fear is just going to drive you into the ground. And when you’re doing all the right things, but the markers aren’t moving and the person is completely overwrought with fear. It definitely derails them faster than any other thing that I’ve seen with who I work as well.

Morley Robbins: Absolutely true. And I think it’s behind every physical issue is an emotional dynamic, right? You really internalize that, and the emotional release programs are out there, like EFT or EMDR motion code. You don’t need to be lying on a couch for two years to try to figure this out. The whole idea is to get people to release. And that process of release is very empowering.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so too, if we had enough money morally, to start our own little side business, I think two good ventures would be to start to open up an amino acid company that tests the C chain right or the CN. That’s right. And the second one was you sent me something that I had a chance to look at just before we got on the call where it’s only done in rats, but maybe you could tell us about that study where they’re able to determine how well the ratio to whatever it is to SLD. And that gives us a status of copper depletion. Maybe tell us a little bit about that as well.

Morley Robbins: Yeah, this was from an article and with an 87, maybe 90. It was written by a famous copper researcher Joseph Prohaska. But He’s now retired. But he was a real luminary in his field during his heyday. And he was talking about inside the red blood cell. There are two components that can be measured. One is the superoxide dismutase enzyme because the red blood cell produces oxidative stress and produces superoxide anions all the time.

And the s OD is called ESRD erythrocyte s od needs to be able to clear that and that this particular assay picks up whether that is in fact expressing, and the other is a chaperone called CCS. And it’s the copper chaperone for the episode enzyme. And so what they were pointing out is that in copper deficiency, we get this right, I think the so D was low, and the chaperone was high, well, the sample is rising, because there’s looking for copper to try to get there. That’s what I figured Yeah. So it’s trying to get the component, get the battery, to the superoxide dismutase. So that it can maintain homeostasis in the red blood cells.

And so it’s a very revealing test, but it’s not commercially available. And so he was just, he was highlighting its value, and encouraging people to look into it. Well, I know for a fact that it’s not available there. None of the true sensitive tests for copper status are available, I mean, that there are a handful of them. And they’re all just Mia. And that that makes part of the intrigue of doing this work is finding ways to have definitive proof that we have a copper issue. And it’s hard to come by, there are all sorts of measurements of iron, but nothing around copper right?

Dr. Joel Rosen: And so, so eloquently teach that in, in your RCEP training. And one of the main ones is the copper to Serena plasm ratio, which I alluded to a little bit earlier with vitamin E in and glucose or hyperglycemia. So maybe this sort of gives our lead listeners because I always like to hear a little bit of an update on that or just clarify from my understanding is, ideally, you want to have a 3.3 to one ratio of coproducer rule plasm.

And maybe you could tell me again, why it’s 3.3 to one and my analogy morally is always what is it Simplexity? What was the name of the what did you call it? Simplexity Simplexity. My Simplexity is, it is for every glass of orange juice to make it most efficient. You need 3.3 oranges for one orange juice, and every time you use four or five, it’s less efficient. And if it was one, you’re not getting all the good nutrients in there that you need. I think that’s where it starts and ends in terms of how the analogy works. But as far as why is that such a good indication of the intelligence of copper versus Hey, I just my copper is low or my copper is high, so to speak.

Morley Robbins: Right? Yeah, the two most dangerous words and in the field of healing and nutrition are high and low. Everything’s about bioavailability. It’s not high or low. There’s there is no high or low. Is it usable? Is it working? But this actually goes back to research done in 1960 by two famed metal researchers, Dr. Stern Liebe and Scheinberg. They were actually working at AT and T Labs in upstate New York in 1960. And they’re studying copper and so Willow plasmon, and they’re the ones that actually developed this ratio of 100. Part One other part copper to 30 parts of Cirilo plasmas considered ideal, you divide them and it’s 3.33.

And what I’ve come to do is look at that number, that ratio has been logarithmic. So an earthquake of 3.33 is very different than an earthquake of 3.83 and very different than an earthquake of 4.13. And so the thing is, it’s going up by orders of magnitude. So 3.83 versus 3.33. That’s five times greater difference than it should be. Because differences, five, between eight and three, and I expressed it that way to get people’s attention that the balance is off, because well, we’ll look at it. We’ll say oh, it’s I’m just a half a click away from where it’s supposed to make Know You’re five times from where you should be.

And so I think it’s, I don’t really recall the full explanation for why they felt that was key. But what they did indicate was it seemed to reveal that even under low copper, or high copper conditions, the ratio should still be 3.33. And that’s what I’m always looking for when I’m working with clients where is their ratio? Just to make it more exciting. I’ve added a new blood marker to the panel. And it’s looking at uric acid. And we haven’t had a chance to really talk about that. Maybe that can be a conversation, or number eight. Yeah. But what I learned in my research around uric acid, and the whole field of metabolic syndrome, is that metabolic syndrome is fed by uric acid.

The one we’re not making energy, when we’re not making ATP, we’re making uric acid. So uric acid is essentially the billowing black smoke coming out of the exhaust pipes of our mitochondria when we can’t make ATP. And the uric acid is a clear indication that the body and the mitochondria are in a state of disarray. That can’t make ATP. They can’t recycle the ADP back to ATP, or they can’t get a&p back to ATP. And it’s a crisis inside some set of mitochondria or an Oregon or what have you. So what I’ve done now is measuring uric acid or we’re looking at uric acid. And the lab range is wide enough to put a Mack truck through sideways. So we’re trying to really narrow it down saying, if if you were not within four to five, then you got a problem.

Dr. Joel Rosen: I am low, I mean, both on the high and low side.

Morley Robbins: Right, exactly, exactly. And so when does heart disease kick in? Well, according to the practitioners who focus on uric acid, it starts at 5.5. That’s a really critical threshold. I’ve got clients that are in the sevens. Now it’s making sense why they’re having problems. Well, if we put it into a cerebral plasmin context, we have a new ratio now. We have Cerebral plasmon to uric acid. Because of the Rouleau plasmon, think of it as a surrogate for bioavailable copper. Well, where’s copper, most important, it’s inside the mitochondria, at the complex for cytochrome c oxidase is what turns oxygen into water to release energy critical activity.

So I’m using su lo circular plasmid as a surrogate for complex and we’ve got uric acid now. Well, ideally, the ratio, let’s say we’re talking about men. So the ratio would be with a number for uric acid, remember the five. So we’ve got 30 divided by five is a six-to-one ratio. And as soon as I see where someone is, if the number is well below six, I know that their copper is compromised. And that’s affecting their ability to make energy.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Interesting. I’m always selfish to do these podcasts, not for my guests, but for me so that I can get to that little insider. Interesting. So so in order just to sort of take that away, so ideally, through plasm is somewhere in the area of 30. And a lot of the people we work with, and I’m sure you see this in the 16 1720s. And then if uric acid is above the five range, then that’s going to cause that coefficient to be a lot less than six if you’re dividing Zankel. Right. And that’s telling us that there’s a, the copper, the thriller plasm is, is your surrogate for the electron transport chain? Is that right?

Morley Robbins: Yep. So I’ve got a colleague who, in his late 50s, Headstart meds for hypertension. It was really, it was really defeating for him to have to do that. So we we ran the panel. Well, he’s had a lifelong issue with copper. He had Crohn’s disease when he was a teenager. He said all sorts of issues around copper that no one ever put into a copper context until we began working together. Right? But his Suru low plasma is 16. His uric acid was 7.3. Right? And he said, well, well my uric acid is just over the range ranges is up to 7.2.

Right? That’s a no, no, no, no. I said. So when you divide 16 by 7.3, it’s really small, it’s like 2.7, right? It’s not. You might oh my god, he’s, I’m, I’m less than half of what it should be. And I said That’s exactly right. Is it definitive? No. Is it directionally correct? Absolutely. It gives people something to hold their heads on. And they realize, Hey, I’ve got to get on top of this competition. Right?

Dr. Joel Rosen: So for women, 7.5 to one is the goal for them. Is that right?

Morley Robbins: Well, yeah. And that’s where we’re trying to refine is, is, we might even just say, we might just simplify and just say everyone should be at a five. I see. And then we have 30 divided by five, and we can interpolate it.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Is there an operation limit? Because I know you said with uric acid being low, would you have said, let’s say it was in the TOS, and you had 3015? What would 15 indicate?

Morley Robbins: That would tell you that the kidneys are not releasing the uric acid? The enzymes that release uric acid from the kidneys? Are copper-dependent, of course. And so what you’ll often see is low uric acid with folks who are dealing with neurodegeneration.

Dr. Joel Rosen: I say so it’s, it’s it. I’ve told people this, it’s still the same fundamental problem in the lack of bioavailable copper, it’s just depending on what system or organ system is being impacted by the lack of power.

Morley Robbins: Exactly. That’s exactly right. Yeah. And so I think I think the part is hard for some folks to grasp as, how could this one lowly little mineral, be so powerful and so important? And it’s like, I’m not sure. I think our Maker Mother Nature designed us in a very unique way. But boy, you talk about an Achilles heel. And if the Achilles heel goes south, the downstream impact is staggering.

Dr. Joel Rosen: So in wrapping up, so morally, if we were to have a utopian world, and we could do whatever we wanted, by rubbing the genie as many times as we could.

Morley Robbins: How would we fix this? The first thing I would do, I mean, we have complete sway over the world, right? Yeah. Glyphosate is gone. High fructose corn syrup is gone. Statins are gone. That’s where I’d start.

Dr. Joel Rosen: And the statins because they’re mitochondrial disruptors, is that what it is?

Morley Robbins: Yeah, absolutely. And we’re bucket we’re bucking three big containers of activity. I mean, right now, statins were the first trillion-dollar product on planet Earth. Right? It’s there’s a juggernaut behind it. Of course, we know that. But if we’re trying to make a seismic shift, that’s where I would start.

Dr. Joel Rosen: And also because of the fact that cholesterol is the oxygen sink, right? So if we don’t have the ability to sequester that, then we have oxidation of lipids and so forth.

Morley Robbins: Right. And the whole, the whole controversy was they never told us what the problem was. The problem was the lipids were getting rusty, why are they getting rusty? Because there was too much iron in our blood. Why was there too much iron? Oh, we didn’t have enough copper. And so rule of law, they forgot to tell us the most important part. So you were held hostage for 65 years around this, this blood chemistry, it goes back to the beginning of time. So it’s just so so information.

Dr. Joel Rosen: You know, it’s I think about you and your research. And last time we talked you were a bit deflated with what’s the purpose of this all. That sounds like you’re in a better place. Also, I would imagine with the researchers, I mean if I published stuff on the pm enzyme that was groundbreaking, and it doesn’t even hear a tree in the forest fall. I would want to you yell from the rooftops. Hey, this is important here. Do you know?

Morley Robbins: Well, I think that the issue is, if nobody knows about it, why would they pay attention to the research? Out of sight out of mind?

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, but there it’s being the fact that it’s being researched, though, tells you there’s Oh, inquisitive minds out there like yourself.

Morley Robbins: Totally agree. No, it’s just and it’s intensely researched. I mean, it’s not just like, well, I’m kind of bored today. I think I’ll take a look. This is like we’re talking about a Manhattan Project.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. So so to keep a prelude to part eight I would love to get you and I was hoping to talk about it today, but I don’t think we’re obviously gonna have time is the whole concept of ferroptosis Because that seems to be a big area of conversation when I’m doing the research with the nutrigenomics.

And, and Bob Miller and I really want your chocolate and his peanut butter to talk together because every now and then I hear the importance of bioavailable copper in that whole process. So anyways, maybe we can talk about that next time. As far as again, I mean, just let our listeners know if they’ve been under a rock for a while. Where would they find all your information?

Morley Robbins: Yeah, social media. There’s a magnesium advocacy group. There’s also an RCP page RCP for root cause protocol, on the website RCP 123 dot o RG oodles of information, there’s a resource section that is enough to choke a horse. I’ve got a book, cure your fatigue, got a product, recuperate. Now it’s being supported by a suite of products with companies called Formula IQ.

And you can just look up what they’ve got. And so we’re continuing to push back both the tide of lack of information. But, we’re also focusing on. what are some solutions that we can really rely on beyond the protocol itself. Let’s get to some specific components. And that’s really what we’re trying to bring forward.

Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s awesome. I appreciate your mission and your purpose. And I’m so grateful that I’ve joined a friendship with you and I really appreciate all the things that you do. I’ll leave the sign-off for another time To be continued. And I look forward to our next conversation morally.

Morley Robbins: Absolutely. Joel, thanks so much for your time. Thank you

The post How the PAM Enzymes Is Involved in Energy Production 101 appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

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Dr. Joel Rosen: Hello, everyone and welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their health back quickly. And what a pleasure it is to be joined with Mike Casey. He is a multi-dimensional entrepreneur and the CEO and founder of Formula IQ, a Health Solutions leader and accelerator with a focus on expanding the boundaries of health through aligning partnered brands and products.

Mike rose to become a prominent leader in the integrative health space, through his early years in the Health Solutions, supplement manufacturing, and disruptive marketing and technology industries. After assisting several health solutions, and disruptive tech companies accelerating from early stages to millions in sales, and after realizing the fundamental need for specialized attention and creativity in unifying brands, marketing, and product creations to the health solution front, Mike created what is now Formula IQ in 2013.

Mike, we could go on, but I want to get to the meat and potatoes today. So thank you so much for joining me.

Mike Casey: It’s my pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yes, absolutely. So what we always like to get insight with our guests, Mike is how they got into the area that they got into in the health and wellness space. And being a disrupter and having this supplement company, tell me a little bit about your journey, and maybe your health background or any challenges that you might have been dealing with for you to ultimately get to the position that you’re in today.

Mike Casey: Sure, absolutely. You know, it’s funny, I used to tell this story in a different way of how I got into this space, we all have our own unique way of what prompted us to be in this industry. You know, I used to tell people that I have an athletic background, and I do I’m still a competitive athlete now. And that led me to supplements and wanting to work in the industry in the space.

But, you know, as I’ve dug deeper over the years, I’ve gotten older and more perspective on things, I actually realized that you know, it was more of my upbringing, it was more of my, my teenage years as a child, you know, we were fed extremely unhealthy stuff. We had no idea at the time, you know, you know, I’m like I said, a competitive athlete now. But I was an extremely overweight child.

And as I was coming up, my father had heart problems. He had a heart attack at a very early age. My mom also struggled with many different disorders and things as we were coming up. And the real answer to the question is, have we had all the money in the world as a family, but we had no answers? My dad had all the top procedures done and still had no answers, you know, being in his early 40s, and having to have a triple bypass on his heart, and not knowing why failed solutions for health for my mother, you know, it just led me to, to know that there had to be a different way, there had to be a better way.

So I set out in my late teens actually knowing that I wanted to do something in the integrative health space, which is rare for people to know that his young age, but I was certain and so I dove in headfirst and began studying human nutrition food sciences and supplements just caught my interest because, to me, they created a bridge of health that was there for people who didn’t currently have it before.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome, awesome story. So yeah, not to not to discount the fact that you knew at such an early age, and that was as a response to just what your family members had been going through?

Mike Casey: Yeah, no, it was, it was realizing that you know, my father was one of the earliest people, he was one of the first patients to ever have robotic bypass surgery done. So you know, we had access to some of the greatest techniques, some of the greatest advancements out there. But, you know, looking back, I realized that the one thing that we never got, right was the nutrition, we never got the diet, right?

And ironically enough, I tell this, this story, you know, here and there now, but my parents, my family were anti supplements, for some reason, they, they just, they classified them as bad they classified them as something that you shouldn’t do is dangerous. You know, I remember in my early teenage years, I got grounded for having protein powder. So if that tells you how anti-supplement they were, and it was, it was just a fact that they didn’t understand what they were utilized for.

So it forced me to want to know why I needed answers. And the traditional medical system didn’t have them. So, you know, I knew that there was validity in the traditional medical system. But something was missing. There was something that was missing, that was keeping them from getting better because it was always one trip after the other to the doctor or to the hospital. And so there had to be another way. And it turns out, there weren’t other ways. So that’s kind of really what I set my life out to pursue what’s the complete path to health.

Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s awesome. So take So maybe through those early years, what was the first venture that you did in pursuing that dream or goal?

Mike Casey: Sure, absolutely. So, you know, it’s funny, I started off with my earliest time, you know, I don’t talk about it too much. But I started off personal training, and then working in a nutrition store actually, that was, you know, I was like, how am I going to experience in this as I work my way through school and get educated? And so I did, I did that I was, you know, literally working around the clock, two jobs.

And it taught me some stuff about supplements and the other and it taught me about the human body and how it worked and responded to exercise. You know, I had the great opportunity after that to go work with another company that had a really great piece of technology.

And they had supplements paired with it. And it gave me an opportunity in my early 20s, to help them be a part of a company that was scaling and growing, and to really worked with the formulation of the supplements to work with how that paired with the technology and to work with integrative practitioners while at this company.

So that was really, I would say, my first leap into the industry was doing that, because it gave me a chance to realize that I loved more than just supplements, I love more than just health, I loved the full picture of health. And more importantly, I learned and started understanding what it took to put together a formulation and what it took to make a supplement. But not just a supplement, but one that worked and understanding the quality of what goes into it because I think often that is really overlooked in today’s market.

Dr. Joel Rosen: For sure, especially with the toxic Tagalongs and the excipients. And ultimately, we’ll get into who’s behind that, and who owns the companies as well, which I think it’s a great question to get into. So was PF IQ, the was the second company that you started, or?

Mike Casey: Yeah, F IQ was the second cobalt was the first company that I fully took ownership of and was the first full owner of so, you know, I’ve been part of creating and growing many other brands in the industry that are well known now today, you know, which I’m very proud of, and was very happy to be a part of, but FAQ was the first thing that was really mine, it was my first chance in 2013, to start something, and to do it on my own.

And to really do it because there was a missing gap in the industry, there was nobody who was really looking at all factors, you know, you had people who were making supplements that were just great, and had really high standards of quality control. Or you had supplements who were companies over here who were making stuff, you know, in their basement or back room somewhere that had no quality control whatsoever.

There was really no bridge between these two companies in the industry at the time, as well as the third tier to that I would say is that you know, there was a fad for many years. And you know, this is a practice where there were only companies that were there professional grade companies who offered good supplements that work that you could find combinations of things to maybe focus on one’s health specific topic, like anxiety or something. And then you had the lower-end retail products.

But most practitioners were using singular ingredients. I mean, it wasn’t uncommon to walk into a doctor’s office, and to leave with, you know, 10 to 20 supplements of singular ingredients. And so you could walk in with anxiety and they could say, Okay, you need to take these five to seven singular products of individual ingredients to get the job done. And it was becoming really cost-prohibitive.

And it was just becoming a huge headache for patients. And so I saw an opportunity in the market, I was like, There’s got to be a better way they wait, we need to create something that has helped specific, it’s simple. And that levels, the playing field that brings professional quality to everybody that doesn’t cost $60 A bottle like they just as someone who had had experience making products and understanding the cost of it.

I knew that was just it was just absurd margins that were taking place and the industry is starting to get out of control. So our goal was to kind of come in and level the playing field, which is you know, we’ve done successfully over the years.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s great as an entrepreneurial mind seeing the opportunity gap and that’s what you saw on why not come up with an intelligent product and actually call it F IQ. Is that how the name was born? Or is

Mike Casey: Yeah, no, absolutely you know, F IQ formula IQ. It’s all about smart formulations. You know, smarter formulations, faster results. That was our tagline at first.

And you know, I used to say all the time as well that health is formulated not supplemented. So the entire idea is a smarter way a better way to reach people to reach health. That’s absolutely the whole entire basis behind the F IQ and the creation of the name.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Excellent. And so you obviously I have interviewed Morley Robbins. several times on our podcast and you have somewhat aligned ships with Morley, but you’ve also been in existence through to 13. Till then. So what were you primarily focused on formula IQ-wise prior to him, and then we’ll sort of piggyback from there.

Mike Casey: So up until 2018, when I met Morley and the root cause protocol, you know, our main focus has been and continues to be still working with practitioners, you know, it’s, and that’s not to say that we haven’t sold to the general public into retail we have but my background has always been working with an integrative practitioner, whether it be a natural path, a chiropractor, we’ve got a handful of medical doctors who are in the integrative space. And so, you know, we made formulations that were health specific, and we sold them into, the health professional market space, so it was a resale. So most people found our products on the shelves of doctors’ offices.

And so you know, the cool thing about our products is, they’re very easy to sell themselves. And they’re very easy to understand as a better way to put it. Everything that we make in our line has been helped specifically. So you look at our line, and we have roughly 25 skews now, and everything is exactly what it says it’s four. So you know, anxiety IQ, which is our flagship product, it’s very, it’s a smarter solution for anxiety, simple as that. So you know, info IQ for inflammation, sleep IQs, for sleep, I mean, it’s very simple.

I mean, you like our doctors tell us all the time. And like, we don’t have to do any work, your products sell themselves like you just look at it, you know what it is, you know what it’s for. And when you take it, for the first time, it works, I think that’s the biggest disappointment that I’ve found over the years. And the one thing that we constantly are working on what the formulating of our products, is, we’re up against the pharmaceutical model here. So while there is a very vast difference between a pharmaceutical drug and a dietary supplement, people expect a result when they open a bottle, and take something.

And I think that’s something that a lot of supplement companies forget, it’s not enough to make a good product, your product has to work, it has to work the first time that you take it from a patient or from a customer. And so that’s one of the things that we pride ourselves on, excuse me with our products everything that goes into it is about the effectiveness of it. So that’s something really unique and that comes from the sourcing process to how we formulate and how we put it together. You know, no, no two ingredients are the same. So there’s definitely a very stringent process when it comes to our products.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Excellent. Yeah, there are a couple of questions I have about that. But going back into the formulation of it all, how active of a role do you play in that might be? Are you doing the research on your own and figuring out what are the best nutrients that will yield those results kind of take me through the genesis of how a formulation happens.

Mike Casey: Sure. So obviously there has to be a demand for it. And as much as I like to take all the credit and say that I’m the smartest guy in the room, I’m not you know, I’m good at what I’m good at. So I’ve generally created the foundation for the formula. I love formulating stuff. I love understanding that each part of a plan plays a different role and can have a different effect on the body. That’s That’s true. That’s understanding the ingredients and the science behind everything.

We do have third-party chemists. So we do once we put together a formula, we run it by them. So let’s take the recuperate IQ for example. I know that’s something we’ll get into with the RCP and work with Morley. So when I put together the recruit right products, it’s all about creating bioavailable copper for somebody. So we looked at the formula. We looked at the ingredients we said, okay, so what food sources are going to be the highest and copper? Well, we know there’s been a flipper well undefended, beef liver, primarily the source, where should it come from New Zealand or Argentina have the highest concentrations of minerals still active within them?

Then we looked at a vegan source, which is spirulina we understand that spirulina can only come from one or two suppliers in the world, if not, they can contain contamination in the harsh on the body. So Hawaiian Bay, spirulina is what we use. So understanding where that comes from is very important. That’s going to that was the highest copper from a vegan source.

So along with oxygenating, the blood, and many other benefits, then we said it’s still enough. This is where we sat down, we’re like it’s still not enough copper, it’s still not enough to move you know, to move the needle. So working with Morley, he, you know, his, his response was more copper the better. And so, that’s great. You know, but how much copper how much we can do much of a good thing that comes a bad day. There’s also digestibility so we had to look at how much copper is glycinate we add to it.

Do we use copper bisglycinate you know, there’s copper, or take copper? glycinate copper hydrosol copper, there are many different forms. So, you know, we had to look at which type do we want to use copper one copper two, we landed on copper because glycinate because it’s copper neutral, meaning the body can digest it and utilize it in whatever form it needs to. Whereas like copper too is, it’s, it’s tin, well, copper one is 10 to one absorbable compared to copper to. So looking at supplements, you know, copper sulfate is a copper two product, which is typically for vegan sources. It’s just not as absorbable. So we landed on copper bis-glycinate. But then we had to ask the question, how much can a patient tolerate at one time?

And the answer is, most people can handle about two milligrams or less roughly per serving. While we want to get more into them, we have to obviously put it with things that can allow them to do that. And of course, a lot of times the inflammatory response of the gut can be an issue. So we added a little bit of curcumin to it to help with the inflammatory response to the gut, which then creates a whole formula product. So hopefully that kind of gives you an idea of just an abridged version of what goes into putting together a formula.

Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s awesome. I appreciate that taking me through the whole conceptual idea. I don’t want to go down this rabbit hole. But I know that there are camps that get into the Hatfields and the McCoys sort of speak in terms of copper to is no good. And there’s no such thing as copper neutral, and it’s only got to be copper one. Maybe you can just give us a little idea on if that’s true if it’s not true.

Mike Casey: So there’s copper one, there’s copper two, and then there’s copper neutral copper zero, which that comes from Earth sources. So elemental form that comes from the earth, which means typically, copper based glycinate means that it’s being pulled from the glycine Salts of the Earth. So I think that’s where people get confused. That’s where they don’t understand that there is no such thing as copper zero, well, like my response would be, well, how does the Earth exist with it, then? So that’s really understanding the difference. So copper two is going to be primarily found in plant sources.

There is a study that shows the difference between copper one and two I said, copper one is 10, to one in terms of absorption in the gut, to copper to that now, that’s not to say that you shouldn’t use either one of those is that either one of those are bad forms, you know, if you’re deficient in copper, I would prefer you get it, you know, from a good source or a good product than not at all.

So I think we can all live in the world of what’s better, what’s purer what, what, what’s out there, but at the end of the day, we just need to get it because our soil and our food is depleted in it, therefore we are as well. So, you know, but for us, you know, the copper, the answer to your question, you know, copper neutral is usually the earth form of copper beans. So that’s extracted from Earth sources?

Dr. Joel Rosen: No, absolutely. I agree. I agree with you. And it would make sense that our body would be endowed with enzymes and systems to be able to take whatever form we’re getting and repackage it into the cell, some easier than others. As far as that’s the importance of the intelligence of the body and the formulation, right? So this is a good intro into, it’s not just about getting copper in there. It’s about all of these other supporting nutrients that will help, I guess, along the assembly line to make the widget that you’re looking to do, whether that’s energy or helping with anxiety or sleep, or whatever it is.

Quick question, just from an aside from what you talked about, before, some companies are, are owned by pharmaceutical companies, and we’ll talk about that now. What what’s the difference with their particular product? Is it is is it not considered in terms of the intelligence of the product? Is there? Like what would be well, let’s get into that maybe you can just kind of take the conversation and I’m with it.

Mike Casey: No, I think that’s great, let’s just say, let’s just dive into it. You know, it’s a, it’s a fun topic where, you know, sometimes people are surprised by it, and sometimes people are not, but, you know, I think first and foremost, well, a lot of people don’t know, when they walk into a health food store, they walk into, they see, you know, a product on the shelf. Well, that could be Metagenics even something that you find at your doctor’s office, you know, Metagenics is they are in partnership with Ulta Corp, which is Amway, so the MLM if you’re familiar with them, so they’re all the same ownership.

Nothing wrong with that. You know, you get into Nestle. Nestle is a big player in the supplement space, you know, they own pure encapsulations woven Zyme Garden of Life. They have a handful of supplements in their arsenal, Procter and Gamble, bought a new chapter so they all new Chapter A Um, you know, the one that I have a lot of fun with is Clorox as in the bleaching company, Clorox owns Renu life, which is the cleansing company. So, you know, no pun intended, they clean your sinks, they clean you out, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a weird combination, along with rainbow light meal sellers who they own as well, then, you know, you get down to, you know, schwa bones, in somatic therapy, all the way down to Atsuko ohms innate and mega food, which are common names as well.

So I mean, we could go on and on and on. I’ll Suka is a pharmaceutical Chinese pharmaceutical company that makes a lot of drugs that we see here in America, too. So what does that mean? I usually say this, and people are like, Oh, my gosh, the pharma companies are involved in the products, that’s a terrible thing. That means that they’re no longer good and that we should not take them. That is not necessarily the case. On one hand, I look at it. And I say, imagine where these supplements are being made. Now, the clean rooms and the level of equipment that these guys have to be able to bruise produce these supplements are top-notch.

So on the one hand, we have a much higher quality control environment for these products. So I think that’s the Pro. That’s we’ve got some consistency. You know, if the FDA goes in there, these guys are doing things by the book. I think that’s the Pro. That’s good, we’ve put some we’ve taken the wild wild west out of the equation, you know, we know what they’re doing. Now, what’s the con?

I can tell you that the negative is that, you know, I could be wrong. But the negative in my opinion, is I guarantee you that there is nobody as passionate as myself that is sitting at Procter and Gamble, or sitting over at Schwab, or any of these companies sourcing the ingredients. They’re not sitting here third party testing them or testing them as they come in from the raw material suppliers and validating. Do they still have copper in their beef liver? You know, are they looking at whether are we using undefended beef liver versus, you know, you know, beef liver with fat in it? They’re not looking at the source.

You know, in our whole food, vitamin C, we use omelet foods. People commonly asked me where does our food come from? Well, it’s also known as Indian gooseberry. So if that answers your question, it comes from Asia, that’s where it should come from. Now, you can also get it from China, just like you can most ingredients. So I would say the downfall is that the pharmaceutical companies are generally aimed more at profitability than then effectiveness and quality control determines the quality of the actual end products.

So it goes back to my statement of it’s not enough that we make a good product. It’s not enough that our products third party tests excellence, our products have to work and they have to work the first time our customers take them. And I think that’s the difference that we look at is these companies, when they buy them out, they’re profiting on they’re trying to increase their profit margins.

So they’re going to buy from raw material sourcing that is cheaper. Now that may shave a few pennies off and cents here and there which add up over time. But those ingredients are going to be void of the active alkaloids and the active minerals and sources and stuff that you really need to heal people with. So, in my opinion, that’s the trade-off. And I think that’s the downfall of it.

I see good and I see bad, but, you know, if you’re going to take a supplement, you have to make sure it works. If not, why are we taking it because I tell people all the time, it’s not how much you take, it’s what you absorb. It’s what your body utilizes. So that’s why companies such as ourselves, or premier research labs, even you know, they they can get away with using a little bit and getting a lot out of it. Because the quality is there. They’re really looking at their sourcing.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, I appreciate that insight. It’s really great information. You know, you get what you pay for it really right? And I’ve actually done a tour through PRs labs, and I was really impressed with the quality control. And the mass spectrometry, when you say that, when you test it yourself is that what you’re doing is 100%.

Mike Casey: So, you know, a lot of companies so the FDA does not require you to if when you bring in an ingredient from a raw material supplier, when you order it, the raw material supplier will say here’s the here’s the testing, here’s the spec sheet. Now, nothing says that you have to test it before you use it to formulate again, you can blindly trust them because you have testing to use that ingredient. But companies like us and me research Bob Marshall out there, you know, he is retesting stuff.

He’s validating that what is in the raw materials is actually in them when he receives them as an additional layer of testing prior to making the batch of products and so yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. And I think I think everyone should do that. But they don’t and that’s why no two ingredients are the same. I mean, we could have curcumin that is exactly the same as 95% curcuminoids.

And that is exactly the same as sitting on two different pills. And one could be from, a source that has been sitting in a raw material warehouse that’s been preserved. The other one is going to be fresh, it’s going to be freshly ground. And it’s going to come from a live supplier that has a rich soil base and everything else that is aligned with the, you know, the specs that we demand. And one’s going to be felt when you take it. One is going to give relief and the other one not. If anything, it’s probably going to stress your digestive system because your body’s got to work extra now to get rid of this ingredient because they can’t pull anything out of it. It can’t properly align with you like it’s meant to in nature.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, excellent. And so for both. So basically, my understanding is the mass spectrometer gets to the idea of, are there any impurities? What’s the potency? And anything else that I’m missing that the letter does?

Mike Casey: Yes, correct. That’s, so that’s their method of testing was HPLC. Testing. There are many different forms. But the goal is just to break it down to test for, like you said, to make sure it is what it says it is. And then to see what is actively in it. I mean, I can’t tell you how many companies laced their ingredients.

Dr. Joel Rosen: You had to turn away stuff that was contaminated.

Mike Casey: Absolutely.  I had, I had a supplier one time send us beef liver that was fortified with copper. I mean, I didn’t even think we were there yet. I mean, it’s common to do that with you know, vitamin C products, I get that it’s common to do that with cod liver products. But you know, the fact that it was a beef liver and a fortified it with copper orotate.

And it’s like you didn’t think you’d find this one. So it’s extremely, it’s common. And that’s, that’s the wild wild west. That’s the part that people you know, are always afraid of, you know, the supplement space is like, you never know what’s going into your products. And there is some truth to that, you know, there absolutely is there should be a healthy level of skepticism with this stuff. So, you know, there’s a little bit of truth to everything.

Dr. Joel Rosen: So as far as you know, that Bob passed, though, right? Or did you know that?

Mike Casey: I know that I should know that, but I did not know that. Wow, he did.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yes. been like four or five years now. I’m one of those artists guys I’ve ever been privy to give a lecture or hear a lecture from and I’ve been in a lot of lectures, he’s still sort of a luminary in my mind. But anyways, as far as one of the big things that he touted was, they don’t put toxic Tagalongs and excipients in their small batches. What does the FAQ do? Do you? Can you tell me a little bit about that?

Mike Casey: Yeah, same thing. So we did for a period of time use vegetable, magnesium steroid, or rice flour, or silica, because a lot of times, so I guess I should explain why people do that. First of all, so when you flow a product, when you make a product and you mix multiple ingredients together, if it’s a single ingredient, it should not be as big of a concern. But what happens is, it’s not necessarily about anything more than using something to keep the ingredients from taking or sticking together during the manufacturing process.

So in our case, it was the vegetable magnesium and the silica because what that allowed for was the oils actually from the vegetable magnesium story, allowed the acted as a lubricant so that the ingredients would not cake together. So they could flow through the equipment to be then encapsulated without any problems, we have worked to remove those, which just creates more of a manual process for where the products now there are some supplement companies that will debate you and tell you that your body will digest the products better, there are articles out there that will state this with vegetable, magnesium salt, or magnesium stearic. synthetically, and I disagree with the synthetic version.

I also disagree that our body needs those things to digest and utilize ingredients. I mean, our body’s very smart, if it needs something in the digestive system, it will pull it there and you know, break down the ingredients. So we’ve removed all of those things. I mean, there are companies out there who still use titanium dioxide, all kinds of you know, fillers and things in their products. And at the end of the day, those are just a shade cost down that allows them to get cost down.

A lot of times they have to use them because they’re using a lower-quality ingredient in their product. That’s another trade-off for that. But, you know, I’m in agreement with Bob, you know, it’s funny because he was using it as an early inspiration for me. I interviewed with him actually, many, many, many years ago. And he gave me some great advice at that time. But he was the inspiration for a lot of stuff that we do. So we share a lot of the same viewpoints in terms of products.

Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s awesome. I had no idea. So it’s a pleasure to have mutual respect for someone and the concepts that they pioneered or at least embraced and I know that he gave out little binders I actually have one over there about it. The study’s on too much. I mean, you’re taking it daily, day in and day out silicone dioxide and talcum powder and all of these magnesium steroids and whether so anyways, that’s awesome.

But as far as moving over into sounds like you saw an opportunity when Morley and the root cause protocol came up with the stops and starts and understood that there’s utility here, so maybe kind of take us through the genesis of working with him and what products you offer now with the skews of that formula of those formulas?

Mike Casey: Sure, no, I think it was, it was a great synergy. When Morley and I met, you know, I met, I had a call with morling, an introduction through a good friend of ours. She’s very talented. As a practitioner, I talked with Morley on the phone, we spoke for about 20 minutes, and I hung up the phone him just to give you some context, and I said, I’m going to work with this guy, we’re going to do something together, I had no idea what it was going to be at the time we hadn’t. And, you know, talking to him, he felt the same way.

We had no idea what we were going to do together, we just knew that we were going to do something. So fast forward. Morley came to me a little bit, and a couple of months later, we went to dinner. And he’s like, I want to create a copper supplement. And I gotta be honest with you, nobody talks about copper and the medical industry, you know that I know that.

I knew it was a great anti-fungal product. I knew copper was great for anti-inflammatory stuff. But, you know, there was the lingering fear of copper toxicity. You know, you typically don’t look at Copper unless you have something wrong with the liver. But then you look at those markers. So it was new. And we kind of pioneered this space of creating a copper supplement and understanding that people are deficient in copper. And there’s a reason for that, you know, and I think the RCEP I think a lot of people, they probably get this conception that the RCEP is only about copper.

The RCEP is not only about copper, and this is why we’ve partnered with Morley, the RCEP is about restoring balance to essential vitamins and minerals, mainly the minerals and that mean that you know, iron is not something that is not important. I think, you know, we we we talk about, you know, anemic and people taking iron is not to say that iron isn’t important, we just have too much of it. We have too much of it in our body, we have fortified our foods with it to the point of fortifying foods with it, we are getting enough of it, and we are getting plenty of it. We do not need more.

But the one thing the one mineral the two minerals, I would say which are the core pieces of the RCP is that everyone is deficient and and this is tracks on blood work is copper and magnesium. And that is because we live in a very stressful world. You know, we can’t eliminate stress. You know, who are we kidding? You know, if we could that’s that would be the secret you know that the topic of what you do. We can’t limit it. We can’t get rid of stress, emotional stress, lifestyle stress.

And we’re not probably going to get rid of oxidation either which is internal stress and toxic and toxic and you know, pieces. So when I met Morley in the RCP root cause protocol, to date, I had never offered a multivitamin. I had never offered foundational nutritional supplements and people thought I was crazy. And I always knew and it went against my teachings.

And they went against my beliefs that people should not be taking synthetic vitamin and mineral supplements there, they were the wrong ratios, and they were causing more harm than good. Like there just wasn’t a foundational platform out there of something that I could really wrap my mind around to say this is right. And I worked with a lot of doctors, and we today I had not found a solution that I could say is something that you know, 80% of the population could benefit from doing every day as a foundational piece. And so when I went through Morley’s work, and we started talking it put the pieces, we put the pieces together, it was all of the different pieces I’ve learned over the years.

You know, I’ve always thought that people should not be taking mega doses of vitamin D. I do not think people should be taking tons of zinc supplements. And I think people are deficient in magnesium and core minerals. And so it really just tied it all together, even though it challenges everything you’re taught in, you know, to traditional education. But it really just brought everything together. And so we worked with him to create products that were aligned with his research to say this is the foundation.

These are the things that you can do to restore energy in your body into clear oxidation or exhaust or whatever you want to call it. These are the foundational things that you should take every day. They’re the core root of health issues.

Use for just about everything and everyone, if the body can create enough energy, it can heal itself. And that is that one principle that every medical model has at the basis of it is if we can, our body has enough energy you can heal. And that is really what the root cause protocol is about that which is through restoring ancestral principles in essential minerals and vitamins and their correct forms and ratios.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. Yeah, I agree. 100% I gotta admit, I got caught with my pants down for this interview, because I was familiar with recuperate. And I know that you’re adding new new new lines, or new skews and new products that were consistent, but I don’t know the specific ones and or the doses. So maybe tell us though, getting into you guys have made live the the new quickstart guide that maybe has built upon the stops and starts. So let’s talk a little bit about that, and why you felt the need to do that. And then how does the line of products that you have fit into that?

Mike Casey: Yeah, absolutely. So you know, one of the things, as someone who’s worked in the supplement space for this many years now that I’ve, I’ve really understood, and you will appreciate this as a practitioner, and doctors, they tell me this all the time, is practitioners and doctors are great at telling people what to start taking, but they are terrible at telling people what to stop taking. Right.

And for the life of me. I mean, I see it, I hear about it every day, people walk into their doctor’s offices with grocery bags of just, you know, sometimes 20 and 30, plus different supplements. And I’ve seen people taking three different B vitamins, three different brands of vitamin C, and they don’t even realize it. And it’s all because someone put them on it at this period of time. And they just never told them to stop. So, you know, why is a need for is? I think that has to stop.

I think someone needs to say, Okay, enough is enough. Why do we need to stop doing this? More importantly, then is, you know, these items that we should not be taking, you know, high amounts of synthetic vitamin D we should be getting sunshine instead. You know, too many zinc supplements because they can disrupt copper in our body. You know, we should stop taking synthetic multivitamins Is that the wrong ratio? So, these are the things we stop. And then what do we start taking? Like what are the essential things that we need?

Well, we know we’re deficient in copper. So we created, a protocol to recuperate, we know that people need magnesium. So we created different magnesium products, we know that you need retinol to activate copper. So we created cod liver oil. So the goal was to really create a turnkey line that, excuse me, that really helps people. That really helps people just know what to start knowing and what to start doing. And I think that’s missing in the industry today. It’s like, you walk into a health food store. And you have a whole slew of options. But what do you take? And why do you take it? That’s the question that everybody really needs to know.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Absolutely, sorry that you got choked up there. You are about your line, you know, so as far as Okay, so, the other things that I was curious to know about are that you mentioned that you had two areas of focus with your supplement company. So tell me a little bit about that.

Mike Casey: Yeah, so two years of focus, which I think we’ve covered. This point is health-specific formulas, which is you know, you somebody has anxiety, our line is really simple. Even recuperate the copper products, you know, it’s what is it doing its recuperate, the name implies itself, it’s, it’s restoring copper, it’s restoring bioavailable copper and I think that’s another thing that needs to be mentioned with the RCEP Quixtar or even more or less work is I think the whole entire basis of it is understanding that it’s not just about minerals, it’s about in vitamins, it’s about bioavailable nutrients, minerals and vitamins so you know too much of you know, copper unchecked can be a bad thing too much of iron unchecked is a bad thing.

Too many synthetic vitamins unchecked is a bad thing. We need bioavailable nutrients. So that’s really the two focuses of our company and really overall with our formulas is that everything that we have, we want to be bioavailable. And I think that you know, we talked about with Bob Marshall and his line that was his whole basis to like what you take should work it should be available for utilization to be in its right form the right amount and you may not need a ton of it for sure.

You know, I think that’s that’s a lot of things time some people as well with supplements as they die. into heavy, they dive in, they think, you know, more of this is good and too much of a good thing can become a bad thing, you take too much magnesium out the gate, you could have, you know, regulation issues, knowing the bathroom too much, you know, you take too much whole food vitamin C, you could have, you know, overactive adrenals because most of the vitamin C in our body is stored in our adrenal glands and in the brain. So, you know, we have to be mindful of these things. So, for us, you know, it’s held specific formulas, and then foundational formulas were the two areas which, you know, is always served us very well.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Gotcha. No, I appreciate that. I thought about where you were gonna go because when we were talking a little bit earlier, one of your big demos has always been educating the provider and reaching out to the provider. And then the other side was the retail side, but awesome information. I mean, I learned a lot here, Mike, and I appreciate your diligence and your your your mission. Is there a mission that you initially adopted to kind of guide your principles of all the things that you do?

Mike Casey: We want to shift health? You know, I think that’s a very big statement. But if we can shift health, and we can level the playing field, by bringing the knowledge that integrative health professionals have to everyone, I think we can shift health. And I think shifting health means bringing truth, bringing the truth about health to people. And I say that as someone who’s obviously extremely successful, but over the years, in my early years, I found that a lot of the best information in the top information with the top practitioners was unobtainable, it was unaffordable, you couldn’t get to it, you couldn’t reach it, you couldn’t, you just couldn’t access it. And to me, it was what what’s the use of that, you know, we want the truth. And we want to shift health, and we want everyone to be healthy.

You know, I tell people all the time, you have no idea how bad you feel until you feel good again, and I’m sure you see that with your patients as we get used to the fact that we’re supposed to live with anxiety. We’re supposed to live with these aches and pains. We’re supposed to live with fatigue, as soon as you teach a lot in the answer, you know, the comeback to the No, you’re not. Like that’s not supposed to be part of everyday life.

And so my mission is to shift that to change that. And I believe that supplements are the bridge, you know, they’re not the magic bullet. The name supplement implies itself, you know, what, what are supplements there, there’s something that you’re having to take, because you’re not willing to do something else, you know, if, if I don’t want to eat this, I don’t want to do this lifestyle change?

Well, you’re gonna have to supplement it, it’s a buffer because you don’t want to make another decision. So I believe food first should always be the approach. But if you’re not going to do certain things, the supplements and so that really ties it all together. It’s just reaching people through supplements to give them that bridge to help. Because if I can help you see how good you can really feel, and it’s affordable, and it works. I can change the rest of your life. I think that’s really our mission. That’s what we set out to do in a smarter way.

Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s awesome. And I would just add on that, even if you are willing to do whatever it takes a lot of the time, just the food supply, the mineral concentration, the glyphosate, the high fructose corn syrup, the iron enriched foods, the fear-based media, all of the above is just not enough to to get the amounts that you need. That’s going to help improve your overall health.

So awesome, awesome information. Mike, I appreciate it. One of the things we always ask our guests in parting is what do you wish you would have known then that you know now that might have accelerated your journey or helped you overcome any challenges are just giving you a little bit of a quicker User Guide to get to where you want it to go quicker?

Mike Casey: Sure not? That’s a great question. You know, there’s so many things, I think in terms of health, in terms of just overall health and this particular topic and what we’re discussing here today, I wish that I would have realized the importance of prevention earlier. And I say that you know, I’m in my mid-30s. Now, still young, but so many people, wait with their health until they’re on the brink of death. They wait until tragedy strikes, they wait until something happens. So let’s go back to you know, my father when what motivated me in the beginning with all this with the heart problems?

What if he had changed his diet? You know, what if he had done a CT calcification score test earlier? What if he had done all of these different things? And I think that’s the biggest thing I wish I had told my younger self and I think that anybody should really understand is don’t wait until something happens to get healthy. Like that is that will be the downfall for The rest of your life because people make their health a future self problem. And unfortunately, once you have something like that happen to you, you’ll never be the same. And so get ahead of it. And I think you’ll have a much richer life for it and doing so.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Gotcha. Well, I don’t think you have to worry too much. I mean, if you were thinking of a supplement line or supplement industry in your teens then really should have started when you were five, and you’re regretting that you didn’t think about preventative health until you were in your teenage years. So I agree with you on this, it’s never too late.

You know, the best time is to start before but the next best time is now. So I appreciate your all your insights and information. I definitely will post links to these to the site to your websites and to the product lines. I don’t know if we were able to give sort of a discount for listening to this podcast is that possible?

Mike Casey: Like, I can now give us a like and get a small discount code. We’ll set something up for you guys underneath BROZEN, we can make that the coupon code. That way, listeners and followers can use that. So use Rosen at the time of checkout. And of course, the website is activated F iq.com. If you want to do the Quickstart program, act activate F iq.com forward slash RCEP. So we try and keep it really simple for you guys.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. Well, listen, I appreciate your time. And I wish you future success. And I’d love to be able to keep the door open for another interview when you’re telling me about all these other amazing stuff that you got online and we can share those insights as well. So thank you so much for your time today, Mike. Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

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The post What They Don’t Want You to Know Decoding the Supplement Industry appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their house so that they can get their health back quickly. And I’m joined here by a special guest, Jeff Hoyt, he specializes in developing innovative wellness solutions to meet the needs in the health and wellness industry.

His goal is to help people live a healthier, happier, longer life and make available effective and efficient solutions for healthcare, recovery, and improvement. Jeff believes in challenging the status quo and doing things differently to get results that have never been seen before. He has developed several innovative brands that are all revolutionizing wellness with a focus on zeolites and the effectiveness that detoxification strategies. And that’s what we’re going to be talking to you guys today about. So, Jeff, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you spending time with us today.

Jeff Hoyt: Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so I have done a lot of research before we got on the call. So I would ask you intelligent questions. And then right towards the end of it, I opened up a whole treasure chest of rabbit holes of the studies that you’ve been doing.

And I’d want to get into that. But Jeff, I always like to hear your house story. Before we got started, you said that you had some challenges, maybe tell our listeners why you got into the area or a little bit of history of your health challenges so that they can identify with where you’ve come from.

Jeff Hoyt: Sure, yeah. It was just my journey that brought me into this otherwise, I’d probably be selling insurance or doing something in the financial realm. But I’m glad I’m not. So just growing up had several issues. I was on antibiotics, just from basically from birth. And a lot of just a lot of issues there. I had a relatively healthy childhood after you know, each five or six, but then had some events in high school had a vaccine injury during high school, and then basically just had a lot of autoimmune issues going forward, forward started, I went down the conventional medicine route for a little while.

And that just did not work. I saw a lot of people, you know, it’s the normal stuff, you get sent to the shrink and say it’s all in your head. And you know, your listeners probably might sound familiar, but then I found functional medicine. So one of my co-workers said, Hey, you should check out this guy. He does functional medicine. He’s like, Alright, let’s do it. And the functional medicine doctor did things a little differently. And I appreciated that he put me on a food sensitivity test.

And that helped me a lot. I ended up going and working for the food sensitivity laboratory for a couple of years because it helps so much. That’s how I kind of learned more about functional medicine. Because I was working with functional medicine Docs and I did some functional medicine training myself. Then I got into the supplement industry, basically from personal health, a family health experience, actually, my grandma was diagnosed with late-stage cancer. And she was given between six hours and seven days to live. And she was in her 80s.

So she said, you know, she’s ready. But then she decided she was going to fight it. And basically, long story short, you found this guy kind of in the middle of nowhere in the country, taught me a few things that are, you know, even for natural or functional, holistic medicine. They were out there, but she lived over two years longer. And she’s the only person in recorded history to live over two years with that specific answer in that stage. So, it was a great story. She felt like she Fulfilled God’s purpose for her life.

And that two years, and it was honestly awesome. But anyway, from there, I launched one of my first supplement companies like life Sciences, just doing immune regulatory supplements, ended up opening a clinic, the recharge clinic, kind of a biohacking facility with oxygen therapy, red light therapy, saunas, all that fun stuff, just trying to find what works because there’s so much good stuff out there. And still for myself, trying to find what works as well. And then I stumbled across zeolite, about five years ago.

And it just was a complete game changer. So out of all the technology I was utilizing, out of all the supplements, I was using just high-quality stuff, nothing for my clients worked as well as zeolite when used properly. So I said, Alright, there’s something to it. And then I just started getting in there figuring out why just developing theories.

And that’s where I’m at now. So then I’ve recently launched my second supplement company, which is zeolite labs. And that’s the product there is zero charge. So it’s a next-generation version of zeolite. That really is unique. And it’s different than any other zeolite product on the market. And we’re very excited about it. And it’s it’s we’ve conducted a number of case studies as well, to prove that it works.

Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s a great story. Thank you for sharing. I always like to hear those stories and the entrepreneurial mindset and the inquisitive mindset and opening one door opens another door and here you are, and you kind of have that eureka moment with zeal like so that’s why we’re on the show and I want to educate our listeners as to what it is what its benefits are.

What are the ins and outs What are let’s leapfrog ahead of having to do the research on our own and tap into Jeff’s brain and figure out what he’s learned from all of So what would you say? What is your life? What did you get so passionate about it?

Jeff Hoyt: So and I’m not a person, that’s just like the only thing you’ve ever needed to take zeolite. And that’s the cure forever. You know, I understand there’s a lot of good stuff. And there are personalized approaches. The way I look at zeolite is it’s a foundation for almost every protocol, because detox is foundation airy, just because if you’re living in the 21st century, you have to detox right, we’re not going to be healthy by accident any more, we have to take action to reclaim our health.

And for me, detox is at the forefront of that. zeolites are a classification of mineral, there’s a number of types of zeolites naturally occurring in the earth. There’s one type, and there are two, but the main type that’s used for supplements is called clinoptilolite, zeolite.

And there are a number of reasons they use that. But basically, it’s been used for many years for medicinal purposes, kind of like the clay’s have just topically and even internally, but in the last 15 years, the technology, the manufacturing technology has basically increased to the point where zeolites are now way more therapeutic than they used to be. So now we can basically take zeolite, which is this mineral, so it looks like a large rock, and we can micronize it to whatever particle size we want.

And that’s really the key because there are commercial zeolites as well that are used for water filtration and commercial purposes. But the manufacturing process and those are very limited, you can’t get the particle size very low, and it kind of crushes the zeolite cage. And with this new process, we can basically do whatever we want with it.

And that’s what makes it so effective. But zeolites are unique in nature that they have a negative ionic charge. So they’re naturally attracted to positively charged elements. And it just so happens that a lot of the positively charged elements are there things that you don’t want in your body, such as heavy metals, mycotoxins, radioactive materials, ammonia, excess histamine, and these types of things. And what really sets zeolite apart from a lot of the other key leaders are binders is that it’s a smart or selective binder.

So it’s not just going in and grabbing everything that’s positively charged, because you have essential minerals that are positively charged as well. But with zero light, it naturally has essential minerals occurring. So it has calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, and what it does is it goes in and trades, the minerals that already has for elements that are heavier. That’s why it’s so effective for heavy metals. So it’ll trade that say, the magnesium for mercury, because it’s heavier, and it leaves all your other essential minerals alone. And we can prove that through our key studies as well, that not only does it not remove essential minerals from your body, or vitamins, but it actually improves the status of those while detoxing every heavy metal we tested it for.

Dr. Joel Rosen: No very cool lots of stuff. To summarize, I would definitely repeat the sentiment of we live in a toxic world. And it’s got to be part of your verb-like strategies or tools in your toolkit that you need to make sure that you’re detoxing every single day in some way, shape, or form.

And depending on what else is going on, you have Sprint and jogs and walks and crawls and Sprint I think that’s the nature of where we’re headed towards implementing these different strategies. Going through your website and noticing the case studies that you did, I think you were pleasantly surprised to see with the way that you’re testing the changes that not only did these heavy metals statuses change, but so did these mineral levels change as well? And so, as far as why is it that not all? Cleaned up to the light? Is that how we pronounce it properly?

Jeff Hoyt: A clinic clean up till a light clean up to like five times fast?

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, right. Why is it that not all zeolites are created equal? I know that you have third-party testing and making sure that what’s in there is in there and it’s not contaminated. Maybe give us some of the dangers to stay away from and why not all of these are created equal?

Jeff Hoyt: Yeah, absolutely. So that’s a great point. A lot of people think, Oh, this is good information, I’m just gonna go buy the first light supplement out there. Not a great idea. So in general, there’s there are many types of natural and synthetic zeolites. So the first key is don’t try synthetic zeolite.

And some of the supplements, including specifically a couple of the liquid supplements are synthetic. So that could be an issue just there’s a number of issues there. Natural zeolites even some of the natural zeolites can be toxic. So some people go online and find some information about inhalation of certain zeolites that could potentially cause lung cancer those things, which is true, but that’s because they’re just different shapes. So Instructure.

So clinoptilolite zeolite was chosen for human consumption for two reasons. One, it’s a softer edge, so it’s not a sharp edge that is gonna go in and really just tear things up like some of the things even like diatomaceous earth is a little sharper edge. zeolites not going to do that. The main thing though, is the high silica and content. So a lot of zeolites, if you consumed them would leach because their zeolites are aluminosilicates, meaning they’re made of silicone and aluminum primarily.

And in most co-lights, when you put that in your body when exposed to stomach acid, that’s going to break apart, now you’re going to have aluminum, you’re gonna have silicone is fine, but you don’t want the aluminum. And if that absorbs you, you could potentially cause aluminum toxicity. So clinoptilolite has an exceptionally high silicon content.

And so the silicone-to-aluminum ratio, basically, determines the stability of the structure of the zeolite. So that’s why you never want to take any zeolite besides clinoptilolite To start with, and then you don’t want to take synthetic zeolites, because the research indicates that synthetic zeolites also can leach aluminum. But there’s no research indicating that natural clinoptilolite zeolite will leach any aluminum in your body at all.

The higher the silicone content, the better. Our product zero charge has 74.8% silicone, which is the highest I’ve ever seen. So it’s even more stable than the other products, which are also stable. Now beyond that, most companies just tell you, yes, it’s safe, but we can prove it as well. So we have done both an aluminum toxicity trial, where actually I personally consumed an entire jar a day. So it’s 150 grams.

And for comparison, a lot of these products, the powders that recommend one or two grams a day, and a lot of the liquids there recommend like between two and 20 milligrams per day. So this is 150 grams or 150,000 milligrams. So if anything was going to cause aluminum toxicity, it would be this dose, I consumed an entire jar for 10 days in a row and was tested and we had a 0% increase in aluminum at no increase. In addition to that we had in our case studies, you can check out our page zeolite actually reduces the aluminum content and for most people there’s an aluminum detoxing effect. So we can absolutely say without a shadow of a doubt, our product at least is not causing any sort of aluminum issues. And it has an aluminum detoxing effect.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome, awesome information. So that kind of gets us into well, there’s a couple more questions on the follow-up. So this is whether or not they buy your product is just buyer beware, don’t go out and get a cheap version of this, whether it’s synthetic, or even if it’s a bit clean up till late clinoptilolite. Because not all of those are created equal as well. So maybe before we go forward and anything else, what would be the difference between okay, it’s not synthetic, but it is the clinoptilolite What are what am I looking for between those two things?

Jeff Hoyt: Yeah. So I mean, you could probably pick up some clinoptilolite zeolite at a local gardening store, potentially, definitely online because there are commercial mines, that will sell it for so many different purposes. One, they’re definitely not going to be cleaning the zeolite. So it’s going to be contaminated. A lot of times with mycotoxins with diesel with metal, all sorts of stuff, because they’re not concerned with it. It’s not designed for human health.

And two, they’re not spending the money on the advanced manufacturing processes. So they’re using the milling, which is very cheap, it’s a crushing motion. So it crushes the zeolite cage. zeolite basically looks like a honeycomb lattice structure. And it’ll trap things in its cage. So if you use this milling process that will crush the cage, and it could destroy the purpose of the zeolite micronization is slicing, it slices it so it keeps the cage intact, much more expensive. So basically, my location is very important.

The cleaning process is very, very important in the manufacturing process. So for example, zero charges come from a mind that is specifically used for human consumption. So there’s no commercial, it’s not mine for commercial uses. I mean, getting off track, but there’s a company in Nevada that a lot of the companies use the zeolite from, I ordered that zeolite personally for ice removal for ice melt from my driveway of a long driveway. Now I’m not going to put it in my mouth or my body, but it’s a very cheap source.

So it’s great for ice melt is great for anti-odor, that kind of stuff. But if what’s going in my body, it’s got to be from a special mine proprietary cleaning process, a manufacturing process, and it has to be remineralized. Because if a company goes and cleans the zeolite and washes out all the minerals along with the other toxic elements, then it could go and remove some of your central minerals that are not as well because it needs those minerals to swap.

So after we clean it, we re-mineralize it with Ionic trace minerals. So those are present for the exchange. And we have that in the third-party testing that can be seen on our site as well. When it’s clean, too. It has minerals for exchange. You can also see the high silicone-to-aluminum ratio. So we’ve got all that data. Very few companies will actually give you third-party testing for zeolite. And the third-party testing they do give you if you really look closely, sometimes it’s not pretty.

Dr. Joel Rosen: So third step so third party Yeah. So when you say We mineralize it, is that given to you in that way? Are you re-minaret remineralizing? Is it not easy to say either? Are you doing that yourself or you’re getting that already finished?

Jeff Hoyt: Yeah, I’m not I’m not personally doing it myself. I mean I manufacturing process. So actually work with others, an individual who first released the light onto the market in the US over 15 years ago. And there was another individual in Europe within a two-month period. So they were both kind of the, like grandfathers of zeolite. But I work with the individual from the US. So I use his proprietary manufacturing processes his proprietary mine, because I’m never going to be able to figure out how to do things, as well as you know, like, Reverend Father of it.

So I figure I’m not going to reinvent the wheel, I’m going to work with him. But I’m working with him. And now we have a special form of zeolite that no one else sells, so he doesn’t sell it, no one else sells it. Basically, the key with ours is we’ve perfected the particle size arrangement.

So we’ve got the purity, we’ve got the special mine, the cleaning, all that was zero charges is really different than any other product because we’ve got a very unique particle size arrangement that basically combines the benefits of liquid zeolite products with powdered zeolite products. So on the traditional side, you had these powdered zeolite products, which were great for gut binders, there are larger particle sizes, they would stay in the gut and act as a binder, kind of like charcoal or bentonite clay or something else.

That’s great. Then they came out with these liquid zeolite products, which most of some of them were just the powder mixed with water, and just kind of marketing, you know, stuff going on. But the higher end the higher quality ones, they basically took the zeolite and made it into a very small particle size for a full body system and detox. So at that point, it could leave the gut and offer a full body detox. So what we did, and there are benefits to both right, so what we did is we took both of those concepts and put them into one product and a powder. So now you’re getting a whole range of particle sizes.

So you’re getting some particle sizes that stay in the gut, some that go through the whole body for a full-body detox, and everything in between. Because we’re not just going after metals, there are a lot of toxic elements, and they have various particle sizes. So we want a full range to ensure that we have the most comprehensive detox. And we can prove this because some companies will say oh, the powders, liquid companies will say that powders can offer a full body detox, which may be true in some cases.

But once again, through our case study program, we can prove this, you charge detoxes on a full body level, because the test we’re using is a tissue test measuring metals in the palm of your hand. And the metals are lower. So it’s coming out of your hand, it’s coming out of the full body, it’s definitely leaving the gut.

Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s awesome information. So thank you for doing all the work and sharing that with us and distilling that down. So I do want to get into that analysis in a moment. I will say which is a good sort of dovetail into the dosing paradox that you have, in that I had tried a brand through a popular detox guy, and it was all liquid brand. And I still have my amalgams don’t ask me why, but I still have them.

And I was detoxing hard, I was erect to be around I was very emotional, it was really, really uncanny. Maybe explain that in terms of let’s say you do have a liquid small particle arrangement, ability to detoxify clean up color to light. And you’re not taking very much why it would be more toxic to the person that’s getting a higher dose, what’s going on there?

Jeff Hoyt: Yep. So and that is, this was kind of a game changer when we discovered that Zeolite is very dose-dependent. And it’s the opposite of what most people would expect. So the general approach, which is a good thing, right for most, in most cases is to start low, and work your way up right, low and slow, titrate up. But with zeolite, what we found is the opposite is true, the higher the dose you take, the gentler it is on your body. So that’s where a lot of people run into issues with the liquid products.

Because even though a lot of them are very high quality, you need both, you need the two Q’s quality and quantity. So you can get good quality with the liquid, but you might not be able to get the quantity necessary for optimal results. So basically what happens is you take a little bit of zeolite it can go in and it stirs things up. Right? So detox stirs things up to your light stirs things up. It can make a mess.

And that mess can result and the redistribution of toxic elements and other things that result in your symptoms, inflammation, and symptoms. And a lot of people think that’s a good thing. You know, it’s a detox effect. It means the detox is working. But really the ideal situation when you detox is you feel nothing. Because if you’re experiencing those detox symptoms, it means your body is being put under a situation of stress.

And naturally, your body is going to start closing off detox pathways, and your detox is actually going to be very limited. So the way I see it with the theory is you need a high enough dose of zeolite to have enough seal-like cages available to grab everything that’s floating around in circulation and have extra zeolite available to grab onto anything that is dumped into circulation from the detox process being stirred up, basically. So a few. I mean, there’s a lot that goes into it.

And it kind of depends on what you have going on. But for example, you take zeolite, you could be disrupting biofilms where you’re breaking open, you know, you’re releasing microparasites, bacteria, yeast, and then they’re being exposed to the immune system, then they’re releasing their toxins, and etc, the immune system just goes crazy. So the more zeolite you have, the more you have to mop up everything that’s going on. And I’m not doing a terrible job of explaining.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Oh, no, it makes complete sense. I mean, I think what happens is a lot of practitioners want to be safe, right? Where they want to make sure that you’re not creating too much of a strain on the body or kicking up that ocean floor, too much to where or steering up the Hornet’s Nest, where now all of a sudden, you’re left with this major challenge, and it is a paradox in the sense that, and I tell people that a lot with a lot of the things we do in other ways that you didn’t have enough firepower, you know, the psi behind the water pressure wasn’t enough to put the fire out. So it makes a lot of sense in that way, Jeff, as far as with that being said, what is the typical dosing strategy? Just curious about the amounts that you have.

Jeff Hoyt: Yeah. And I will say on the website, you can click the link on this video below and go to the website, and then hit the Education tab. And then there’s a link to the higher dose theory. And that’s a 14 page document that goes deep into all the reasons why the higher dose is gentler and more effective on the body.

And it discusses, you know, histamine release and biofilm disruption, redistribution, and some pretty interesting stuff. So if you’re, you know, nerdy like that, and you want to learn about it, go for it. So in terms of dosing, it really depends on the person, their personal level of toxicity, and just their general body burden. But the higher the dose, the better generally. So just a couple of examples.

So people don’t think I’m just it’s not just a theory, we’ve proven this with many, many, many people over the years with multiple zeolite products with our previous COA product. And this is, well, it’s not going to work with every zeolite product. I do want to say that quickly. Because if you try this with a liquid, it probably will backfire. Because it’ll stir more stuff up. But it won’t get to the point where you cross the threshold of having enough extra zeal.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Your pens, I mean, the variable would be the potency, right? How much milk Exactly, right?

Jeff Hoyt: Yep. So let’s say, you know, five milligrams stir things up a little bit. 10 milligrams stirs things up even more, the higher dose, there’s probably not going to help you, you know, it’s probably going to make you worse. So you have to get there’s a threshold.

And we don’t know exactly what that is. For us, we do 10,000 milligrams at a time as the starting dose. So that’s 10 grams, two tablespoons of our powder. That’s a really good starting dose for people. And then if they experience a headache, that’s the most common side effect of detox reactions, then we say just double the dose. So the next day, take 20 grams, 20,000 milligrams.

And then the next day, just do another two to six. Generally, that does it. Most people are okay, I’m used to working with very sensitive individuals, people on the chronic mold spectrum. You know, Lyme mold, magnetic field sensitivity. Those are the people who really need to be careful about dosing, and they need higher doses. Those are also the people that usually don’t believe me because they want to start with the lower doses. But those are the people that really need the high ones.

And there’s, there are so many people that have tried either a liquid zeolite product, or even this product in a powder powdered form at a low dose, and they’ve gotten terrible reactions immediately. But then when they’ve raised the dose, they’ve had not no reactions.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? It’s happened over and over orders of magnitude. I mean, you’re talking about five milligrams versus 10,000.

Jeff Hoyt: Yep. And just Just for reference, we’ve got a couple of cases right now, where there’s, we’ve got two adult autism cases that have been taking into 90 grams a day. So 90 grams, that’s, that’s a lot. That’s for 14 tablespoons. Yeah. four teaspoons.

Dr. Joel Rosen: How many? What’s the serving size to get like to table two teaspoons or two tablespoon tablespoons?

Jeff Hoyt: tablespoons is your charge. So yeah, so 1001 tablespoon? Yeah, one tablespoon. And that’s approximately it’s gone by weight. But yeah, about one tablespoon is about five grams or 5000 milligrams. And then for healthy, we kind of call that the maintenance dose, right, that’s a great maintenance dose 30 servings per container at that dose. So this will last you a month at that.

If you want to start with the accelerated detox dose of two, you’re gonna need two jars. So pick up two jars for the first month. Now, in some cases, you need even more than that. And there’s really no way to know exactly how much you’re going to need until you try it. But it’s always better to start with the higher dose than the lower dose. So We do have what’s called the ultimate zeolite experience, which is a 20-pack of zero charges. And the protocol is one month, it’s a five-month protocol month one, and you take six tablespoons per day.

So you go through six jars a month, one, month, two, five jars, then four, then three, then two. So the key is you start with the high dose, and as you reduce your toxic burden, you don’t need as much. So the healthier you get, the less you need. And then after the five-month period, you can go to a maintenance dose of one tablespoon per day. So that seems to work really well for people.

Some people might not need that high of a dose if you’re not sure. It’s always better to err on the side of a higher dose, though, because there’s another thing we learned from the case studies is, people were taking various detox protocols, including zeolites for multiple years, and they were not really detoxing. So if your body detox is completely controlled by your body, that’s really the key no key later zeolite or other supplement is going to be able to go and force the body to do something it doesn’t want to do when we’re talking about the deeply stored metals that are because metals are specifically difficult to detox, because they’re similar in structure to minerals. So if you have mineral deficiencies or just other issues, your body doesn’t want to let go.

So when you think about you from your body’s perspective, if you’ve got a lot going on immune issues, just Oh, excess oxidative stress, aging, whatever, your body does not want to prioritize detox, because it’s an easy thing to put on the back burner. So let’s say Mercury comes into your body, you’re exposed to mercury or some other toxic element, and you have all this other stuff to deal with, your body’s gonna say I have to deal with this other stuff, mercury, I can just jam into a fat that can just jam into, you know, an organ or a fat cell and keep it there. Because the body is more concerned with short-term survival than a long-term rival.

So the body actually will prefer to keep mercury and other metals in your brain and organs, because it’s hiding them from your immune system. And when your immune system attacks these things that causes inflammation, and a number of symptoms. So long term, of course, it’s not great, because they’re deteriorating the organs. But short term, it’s actually protecting you.

So that’s why when you your body’s resistant to detox because in order to get your body to push out these heavy metals, from organs and deeply stored to fat tissue, you’re going to have to basically, it’s going to require a lot of cellular energy and confidence that your body can get them out without having an absolute disaster occur. So if you experience a ton of symptoms during a detox protocol, you’re probably removing some general tissue metals and stirring things up, which is not a bad thing.

But your body’s probably not going to be releasing the deeply stored metals. Because the red, you know, it’s it has, it’s on alert now. Because of the stress, really the only way to detox effectively long term is for it to be a gentle detox, where you’re either experiencing nothing or feeling better. And I have the kind of if it probably makes more sense if I explain my three levels of detox theory.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Get we’re gonna segue into that for sure. I just wanted to make some comments on that. And I like to do that. Because my analogy is always that in terms, I initially started as the adrenal fatigue recovery ninja, and the name of this podcast is called your adrenal fix. But the more rabbit holes that you go down, Jeff, the more you realize it’s a, it’s a supply and demand problem. It’s an energy production problem. And when you’re not producing enough cellular energy, then your body has to prioritize and go into cell danger.

And one of the main things it’s going to do is sequester these metals. So that it doesn’t, you don’t start, you don’t buy a new addition to your home, when you just got a, you know, laid off, basically, right, because you’re how you’re going to fund that whole project. Right. So that’s kind of an analogy I would use on that. There was another question that I had about what you were going to say, but I don’t remember at this point.

So what I liked though, is you have a way of testing as you said, we have our case studies, and you have something that you’ve turned in the MN m n m test, which is an oligos scan, which measures your tissue levels of these minerals and vitamins. So maybe you start with that and then dovetail into your theory on levels one, two, and three, and how detox works.

Jeff Hoyt: Sure, absolutely. So and what I do like to say is the key to detox is to get healthy, right? Easier said than done, because a lot of times to get healthy, you need to detox, but in a perfectly healthy person. There they have enough energy to put towards detox that they won’t need as many supplements when they’re struggling a little bit and their body’s using up its energy for other things. That’s when you need additional detox support to help out.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Just as an aside to just so the nerdiness of us can talk together and nerd talk. One of the major ways that I look at that is I mean, you say energy, we think of units of energy or coenzymes like ATP, but one of the main nutrients or coenzymes that I have been studying very hard with the stress response and oxidative environmental toxins is NAD or NADPH. And that is a coenzyme.

And when you look at all the things that NAD and NADPH do, it’s very important for recycling our detox chemicals to be able to pull things out of the body. But if your body is constantly in fight or flight or expenses exceed demands, then you don’t have a surplus of that coenzyme to be able to allow your body to detox in the first place. So when you start paying the bills, getting healthy, and avoiding all these overhead and expenses to preserve your NAD and your NADPH, then automatically you’ve increased your body’s natural ability to detox.

And you don’t have to do you know, any type of whiz, bam, Thank you, ma’am. type of protocol. Right. So we’re speaking the same language there. But so I needed to insert that one word.

Jeff Hoyt: Absolutely. And that’s kind of what’s, what most people don’t understand is, they get a test and they’re high in heavy metals, they think they’re sick because they have heavy metals. In reality, I think they have heavy metal toxicity because they’re sick.

And then as you know, the coenzymes, and all the factors are lowered to your natural detox capacities, capacities have been shut off. Now at the same time, it becomes a problem anyway, that’s why when people are sick, they go get tested for Lyme, metals, everything they test for is positive, just because their body’s not working, they’re gonna get positive.

So the theory and then the testing. So the case studies, the testing we’re utilizing is the illegal scan, which we call the m&m analysis, metals, and minerals tissue analysis, and it’s detecting the level of heavy metals, minerals, and essential vitamins in the palm of your hand, which is unique composed to the other tests because the other tests are measuring what’s being excreted either through the hair, or the urine, or what’s circulating in the blood. This is a tissue test, which I find unique.

Because with, I think there are three levels of detox, I think, are three levels that basically toxin storage, you’ve got level one, which is going to be all the toxins that are floating around. So either from what you’re exposed to on a daily basis, or what your body’s releasing into level one, that’s kind of what your immune system is going to be attacking.

And what you just have a certain level of level two, I think is where the body, if it can’t get rid of, you know, right, when they’re, you’re exposed, your body wants to get rid of whatever I can, you know, just do natural, you know, KIDNEY LIVER natural detox functions, whenever it can’t get rid of, I think it pushes into level two, which is like a general tissue area. And that’s kind of a holding area. And from there, I think there’s a certain level that the body can hold of toxins.

And ideally, the body would keep them there for a while. But then when level one clears up, the body would dump level two back into level one circulation for the body to get rid of. If that never happens, then level two fills up, and they have to go to level three, I think level three is what I call deep storage. And that’s going to be like the deeply stored metals and Oregon’s and other areas.

And I think that is when it becomes very difficult to detox. So level one and two, I believe can be removed through key laters zeolite, and other detox agents fairly easily. And I think that when detox reactions occur, what’s actually happening is metals, and other toxins are being pushed from Level Two into level one.

And it’s crossing your body’s stress threshold and causing the symptoms because you’re handling a certain level and a mountain level one, then you just overburdened it with level two, I think that’s what’s happening. I think in order to get to level three, the only way to detox those is for your body to naturally push them out into levels two and one.

So in order to effectively do that, you have to basically remove the toxic elements in levels one and two, and consistently keep them low. So the body feels confident that it can push things out of level three, otherwise, you’re just going to overburden those levels and cause excess immune responses and etc. So that’s why when you have a stressful detox experience, you’re probably only detoxing levels one and two.

And some things are just getting stirred around and not really leaving the body. But your body’s not going to be getting rid of the level three metals, because that’s up to your body and the pathways are going to be closed to get to.

Dr. Joel Rosen: So and that also corresponds with what we just talked about, where if you don’t have enough firepower or water pressure, then because of the dosing and concentration of that binder or the zeolite in this case, then you’re you’re releasing from three to two or two to one, but you’re not necessarily dealing with it. And ultimately, I mean, would you say that’s an accurate part of the equation as well?

Jeff Hoyt: Why I don’t think the body is ever going to let go of a level three metal until it feels until there’s room in level two and why basically, so that’s kind of the theory, but I think level two can be grabbed by q&a. The reason I say this, and this is all new in the last eight months for me through the case study process is because we were also Using some key leaders, some of the strongest don’t key leaders.

And on the tissue test, even the key leaders were not able to remove metals. So if the body does not want to let go of the metals, it’s not going to let go, no matter what you use, the only way we were able to get the body to push out these metals, is through basically high enough doses of the Xeo charge, so that the body felt because it probably had less to do with the strength of the binder, and more to do with the concrete how comprehensive the binder is.

Because we’re not just talking about metals, if you just use a metal key later, like EDTA, you’re not going after excess ammonia, you’re not going after excess histamine, you’re not going after mycotoxins, microbial waste products, etc, you have to remove all that stuff from levels one and two, in order for the body to have enough capacity to receive more toxicity from level three, I think that’s why zeolite is so effective. Because it’s not just going out for metals, it’s going after most toxic elements and just clearing up space.

And at that point, the body feels competent, says you know what, there’s space, I’m going to push these metals or whatever else is stored in your brain and organs, push it out, and my body’s gonna be able to get it out. I think that’s what’s going on.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. So I would imagine the way you came up with that theory, with the three levels, and seeing the pre and post-test was the fact that it must have been somewhat confused, or, you know, confusing or puzzling to see that these markers were actually going up versus going down.

And I think as an astute practitioner, you can come up with a lot of different theories, okay, it actually got worse, or it’s getting better, it’s actually moving, or there are some other things. So kinda is that what kind of helped you formulate that theory?

Jeff Hoyt: Yeah, exactly. And that’s why I like this illegal skin test too much because it’s looking at tissue. So if you just do a hair or a urine test, and you see increased output on the test, and the levels rise, you think, Oh, that’s good, or that’s what you should think it’s good, because you have metals that are coming out of somewhere. But what you don’t know is where are they coming out of, they might have just come out of level one, or level two, with this test. If the levels rise, you know, they’re coming out of level three, because we’re already looking at general tissue as the baseline. So it’s pretty easy on this test and most tests to get the levels to go down.

Because you just go in and you can grab whatever is floating around, no problem, the level goes down. But if you can get the like mercury level to rise on the test, that’s actually what you want, because it means it’s coming out of an organ or wherever it’s hiding. And it’s coming into the general tissue area, preparing to leave the body, right? People.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Might not understand why that is. But it’s not like they’re going to the mercury factory to play with mercury. I mean, it’s whatever was there before, is there now it’s just that it wasn’t coming out. And it couldn’t have come from any exogenous source. So that’s why Jeff saying it’s got to be from what it’s there. And I think that’s an important point to highlight where a lot of people will look at a test, Jeff, and they’ll say, oh, it’s not there. So I must not have it. But just because it’s not there doesn’t mean it’s not there. It just means that it’s not, it’s not showing itself.

And that can make a huge problem. So as far as what are some of the things that you’re seeing? So, which is interesting, which is the other observation that no matter what, when you’ve done sort of a meta-analysis of everyone that you’ve done, everyone has a certain baseline of these metals, which makes us redefine zero as not perfect. Right. So maybe talk a little bit about that.

Jeff Hoyt: Yeah, so that has been kind of interesting. Basically, there appears to be a certain level of, what we consider toxic metals, that the body can handle in general tissue, at least in the hand, because that’s what we’re testing the hand. If the body either is comfortable with it, or it wants to maintain it, there are a couple of theories, there’s one thing called ionic mimicry, where the body can actually use toxic metals for cellular functions.

Basically, if you run out of essential minerals, your body can use these toxic metals to keep you alive, although it’s not ideal. So that’s one theory, while your body is never going to let you get rid of every single toxic metal, the other one is just in general tissue area. They’re sequestered.

They’re not causing that many issues. You’re but for whatever reason, your body doesn’t want to let you go. What want to let them go? So yeah, we don’t know really why on that on a traditional test again, you’re just going to see levels that say zero because your body’s not releasing anything on this test, you’re gonna see levels that are staying the same, and no matter what you do, they just never budge.

And that’s just what the body wants it to be. So it just, it just shows you that no matter what you do, you’re never going to outsmart your body, and you’re never going to be able to outpower the body. So when we were using OSR, which is the strongest key later ever developed. That’s the mercury-specific key later by Boyd Haley. Animal studies go in and remove all the mercury in your body and cross the blood-brain barrier, all this stuff even that is not able to remove mercury or other metals if your body doesn’t want to let it go. That was the most interesting thing in the whole case study is when we discovered that.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it points to a good point in that a lot of people get fixated on one thing, right, like, I’m sick, I’m not feeling good. It’s got to be like, I’m sick. I’m not feeling good. It’s mold. Or maybe the one thing is all of those like, I’m I have Lyme, I have more of heavy metals, I’m going to do a heavy metal detox, and I do a lime protocol and mold protocol.

And I liked the concept of being able to use a utility player, if you will, like zeal light, which is going to help with the different challenges of heavy metals and mycotoxins and histamines and be able to give you an added layer of support with whatever it is the protocol that you’re doing because it’s that much helpful. Just one thing as an aside, I do a lot of genetic test interpretations.

And if someone has led or aluminum or mercury, especially led and aluminum, they’ve known inhibitors of specific genetic enzymes that help with recycling iron by turning on your antioxidant response elements. So once you selectively like you said, selectively take those out, because they’re heavier metals. And it basically exchanges the positive charge of the mineral with the positive charge of the metal, and it does an exchange. Now, not only are you ridding yourself of that burden, but you’re turning back on enzymes that help with the process. So it’s a facilitating thing as well.

So I guess maybe explain that in terms of your surprise with the fact that when you did these studies, and you found that you improve not only did the pre and post-tests show that the minerals from the body burden were getting higher to a certain point. And then over time, they started to come back down to a baseline knowing that you were getting improvements. But a surprise finding was the fact that the minerals were going high and the balancing of those What Why do you think that was?

Jeff Hoyt: Yeah, so both the vitamins and the minerals, the vitamins were more surprising than the minerals. So the minerals improve when it shows you that the zero charges are not just going in and grabbing minerals. So that’s key finding number one, but the mineral status generally improves on zero charges. And a couple of reasons that could be one, minerals and metals, similar in structure. So if you have a toxic metal, like cadmium, it’s fighting for space in your cells for zinc, if you’ve got lead, it’s fighting for space, for calcium, etc. So these things kind of fight for space, right aluminum, and silicon.

So if you supplement with calcium or silicone, or zinc, a lot of times they’re not absorbing, because your body prefers the heavier element, which is the toxic metal. So the only way to raise the cellular level of those minerals a lot of times is to remove the competing metal. So I think that’s what happens if we remove the metal, naturally, these minerals will just start improving in their status. The other thing is just as you get healthier, your body’s naturally going to start going to balance on a mineral perspective.

Dr. Joel Rosen: You know, it’s funny how have these analogies, like a blood donation for a drug user, you know, like, it cleans up the receptor sites. So now they have the ability to, and I think I’m getting more into that as we speak, Jeff in terms of, it’s not just take the supplement and expect it to get better.

And then the more you take, the more you need. It’s more done in the Zen and the Art of supplementation in terms of pulsing it, like doing a protocol where, of course, you’d be testing it to see which would be the most effective way of doing it.

But doing something like you’re talking about with the experience, laying off of it, reintroducing some of the other nutrients and getting that much more of a therapeutic benefit, because you’ve basically done a sort of a reset, you know, like I always say, with the fuse breaker, you kind of turned on and off the fuse, sort of discharge all the binding sites that were being placed with the heavier metals that weren’t allowing the nutrients that you were using to work.

And now let alone you’re getting rid of all the debris and the mudslide that’s coming out. Now you’re that much more healthy for not needing the supplements and be doing better with food and see the supplements that you were taking are going to be that much more effective. Have you seen that?

Jeff Hoyt: Phenomena? Yeah, yeah. And that’s basically summarizing my whole philosophy on health. Two-step approach out with the bad and with the good, right, and a lot of people get caught up on putting all the good in through diet and supplements and everything else. But key number one is really to remove the bad because if the bad is competing with the urge preventing the absorption or utilization or transport or whatever of the good, you have to do both.

That’s why I think the zero charges is a great foundation because it basically makes your food more nutritious and makes your supplements work better. Just because it’s clearing out base for you’re clearing out that debris and junk to your cells can absorb stuff with the vitamins. That’s where it got interesting because we can, you know, metals and minerals directly compete vitamins generally don’t.

But the test tested for vitamin A, vitamin E, vitamin B, six 912, and vitamin D, and the zero charges were able to dramatically increase the tissue levels of all of those vitamins. And these people were not supplementing with those vitamins, they were not changing their diet, they were doing nothing else but adding zero charge, and it was increasing the levels. So, a lot of those vitamins are antioxidants. So vitamin C, for example, if Anzio charges an antioxidant, so by removing the free radicals and sources of oxidative stress, the body doesn’t have to use up its resources as quickly. So levels just naturally rise.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Yeah, we say it’s like there’s a term called the magnesium burn, right? When your body is just stuck in first gear, and it’s burning up all your minerals, it wouldn’t just be selected for magnesium, it would be for everything. And then once you slow down, and I always say this, I think you’re saying the same thing is pay your if I’m a business consultant to your body, let’s pay down your expenses first before we tried to increase sales, right?

And then once you’d pay down those expenses, now you’d have an increased surplus, to be able to wisely decide how you want to invest that into other venues. Awesome information, Jeff, as far as you do have a product to fully charge and I don’t want you to shoot yourself in the foot. But why would I want to take the fulvic charge if you’re showing in your studies that the zeolite is remineralizing and getting better vitamins on there?

Jeff Hoyt: Yeah, so there’s just a one-two punch mo we see zero charges the foundation, and then we see the fulvic charge as basically the second foundation. Zero charges out of the bad five of charges and with the good. So if you’re going to do one, definitely do zero charges. But when you add the fulvic charge to the zero charges, you’ll get even better results. Because fulvic isn’t a nutrient optimizer, it’s a bio enhancer, it’s helping the delivery, transport, and utilization of various minerals, and nutrients like Coke YUTAN, and other things as well.

It also has detox capacity, we don’t really recommend taking it on its own, because it does have the detox capacity. But it’s going to result in a more inefficient detox like most other chelating agents and detox agents. That’s why you want to take it at the same time as the zeal charge. So yeah, in terms of what it does have, it’s a combination of a purified Sheila ship extract and a bioactive Fulva complex.

So it’s a pretty high dose of fulvic. But it also has other adaptogenic properties. So in terms of mitochondrial support, it’s very good. Because it’s sort of like she legit is very good for mitochondrial support. So if you can increase your ATP output and your mitochondrial function, that’s going to help your body naturally start pushing out these metals. So in terms of detox, and just overall health, those are kind of my foundational one, two punches. And the nice thing is you can basically add them to your current protocol, no matter what it is, they’re not going to make a lien or fear. They’re just going to make everything work better.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. And I would think to maybe you can correct me if I’m wrong, if you have the different levels of how what’s the word constitutionally weak someone is, then if they’re at the extreme, I would say the full Vic, because there may be not having those extra minerals and supporting nutrients once you do discharge those binding sites, whereas maybe someone that’s in that first or second order of health challenges would do suffice with already what they’re doing. But if they’re sort of all the way down would that be accurate? Would you say with the fulvic?

Jeff Hoyt: It kind of depends on the people, if someone is incredibly sensitive to supplements, and they usually can’t take anything, I would start them just on the CEO charge, just you know, at least for a month or two to clear things out, then they can introduce it. Generally, the healthy person just trying to overcome, you know, health issues that generally don’t that they can take stuff. Yeah, it’d be better to take both of them at the same time. So the two in two approaches what we did in a lot of the case studies, two tablespoons of zero charge, two capsules of fulvic charge.

And I do want to mention why we came up with those numbers. The two and two, on the vitamin status on the test, is kind of how we determined how well how stressful the experience was on the body. So traditionally speaking, detox is considered to be stressful, and most people say you suck it up and you go through it and all this stuff. What we believe is you can get through the detox process while actually reducing the stress load on your body. And that’s going to result in a much more effective detox and you can do it long term, which generally you need to do. So when we did one tablespoon of zero charges with or without the fulvic.

We were getting very good detox effects in most cases, but it was impairing the vitamin status and almost half the people. So they didn’t feel worse. They didn’t feel worse. They didn’t have physical symptoms, but the vitamins were lowering meaning the body was having to use up extra resources to combat the stress of detox, when we then raised those people to two tablespoons of zero charge, the vitamin status improved.

So that was like 90% of people should you still have the 10% of people that had to get between four and six tablespoons, to improve their vitamin status? Now, none of these people were having symptoms, that’s the great thing. If you’re having symptoms, you definitely know what stretching your body is. But on a test, we can tell, that’s how we came up with two as a starting point. Ideally, you know, if money’s not an issue, just start with four or six, but I understand it can get expensive. So just the general person starts with tourists.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Six of the of the charge, the zeal, zeal I charge right. And that’s what you were saying if you do start getting some kind of reaction, then up your zero light charge, so that you have more water pressure, if you will. Awesome information. I talked to you a little bit earlier before we got started to put you on the spot. But I do want to have my own challenge and my own testing.

So hopefully, I can read the part report, you know, in real-time, just with all my other socials, what’s going on with me, and I think I like the idea of having other surrogate markers along with the actual testing of the metals in your hand to show Okay, well, not only is that coming down, but what does that mean for all these other health challenges or markers that I may have had with my thyroid antibodies, or, you know, my high homocysteine or whatever else that reverse T three was super high, like, start to see those numbers go down because I find that once you address all these other things, it’s kind of like the Karate Kid where you’re waxing on waxing off and they’re asking, you know, Mr. Miyagi, when am I going to start doing, you know, some actual fights?

And same thing what am I going to start focusing on the reverse d3? Or what am I going to start focusing on this and you’re already doing it by getting healthy? Right. So I look forward to that what I was asked my question, last parting question, Jeff, to our guests here. If you knew now what you knew then? Or sorry, the other way around? If you knew then what you knew.

Now, with all your new information, what would you have told the younger Jeff version of yourself in order to leapfrog some of your health challenges or stress levels? Or just what are some of the words of wisdom, you would have told your younger self?

Jeff Hoyt: I mean, well, my very younger self, I would have avoided the antibiotics growing up as much as possible. And then in high school, I definitely wouldn’t have gotten the shots. And then just going to the right people, basically looking at things differently, asking why I think that’s been the biggest thing for me is okay, you have thyroid dysfunction, and the doctor wants to put you on synthetic thyroid hormone. For me, it’s like, well, why why is my thyroid not working? Is it a thin synthetic thyroid deficiency?

Or is there something inhibiting My body’s ability to convert t 43? That type of thing. So I just always ask why. Until you can’t ask why anymore. And then you start there. And then you want to find a practitioner, functional medicine practitioner, Dr. Joel, someone that is asking why, and who’s giving more to the root cause as opposed to just band-aiding stuff up? Because the band can make you feel better? But you know, not great. For the long term, I’m more into the long-term solution. So yeah, I’d say just getting in with the right people and thinking differently.

Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s awesome information. So the company’s name is light labs, and I’ll have links and we’re going to talk about getting you guys to discount so that you can try this product. Jeff, I appreciate your wisdom and your time and I wish you nothing but future success in everything that you do. And thank you so much for sharing your time with us today.

Jeff Hoyt: Absolutely. It’s been a pleasure.

If you are interested in trying Zeocharge or Fulviccharge go here and use the discount code DRJOEL10 to save 10%

The post Explained How Your Body Really Detoxes & This Powerhouse Nutrient appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: And welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their energy back quickly. And today, what a real pleasure. I’m joined by Andres Olson, he’s a trainer. He’s an author, he’s an innovator is the founder of conscious breathing. He’s been on an incredible journey since he decided to be the world’s foremost expert in breathing. His mind was racing his whole life.

And he was fortunate to come across different tools to help him with his inner calm. And he’s really settled in on the conscious breathing retraining program. And I’ll let him explain his entire story today and how this will help you with your stress response and being exhausted and burnt out. So with more with no further ado, Andres, thank you so much for being here today. I appreciate your time.

Anders Olsson: Thank you, Dr. Joel, for having me.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. So I always like to get a little bit of your background, and I know you were in the import of computers and gadgets, and so forth. And what was it that made you finally realize that you’ve got to, you’ve got to change the trajectory that you’re on?

Anders Olsson: Well, you know, I was just chasing money and having these long to-do lists and a lot of inner stress and didn’t feel fulfilled, felt empty inside. And although the money I chased, they started to come in. And that’s what you think may be the key to success to happiness, but I found out it wasn’t. So that’s when I started to look at health and become interested in health.

And it coincided with my when my son when he was six years old, and he was diagnosed with Lyme disease. And he didn’t feel well at all. And at the time, my view of the hospital and the doctor, and the healthcare system was very, like I lived in the computer world. So it was very binary, either you take a test, and either you’re healthy, or you’re sick. And that was not the case, I realized when I came there with my son that there was a lot of guesswork and a lot of ways of interpreting the results. It was not black or white, which of course makes a lot of sense because our bodies are hugely complex. But for me when my son didn’t feel well, it was a way for me to try to help him and dig into how the body works. And ever since I’ve been stuck in that because it’s so so so fascinating.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. Thank you for sharing, I do a lot of Nutri genomic interpretations, which in English means we look at your genome. And we look at the overlapping environmental talk triggers, if you will, that ended up causing the loaded genetic gun to go off and creating this perfect storm of genetic susceptibilities and environmental triggers that create exhaustion, fatigue, burnout, and under.

One of the areas in that studies that we look at is the entire we call the Fenton reaction side of the pyramid, which is, of course when oxygen mixes with iron. And it’s another way that our respiratory cellular ability to use oxygen breaks down. But the whole point of what I’m trying to get at is the gentleman that formulated that software, he won a lot of studies in Islands, which is in the conferences of Lyme disease, and he found that majority of people that get hit harder, everything else being equal in terms of health challenges, are these ones that have these genetic susceptibilities of not moving iron out a tissue, so they can’t open the doorway for iron to get out. They can’t convert vitamin beta carotene into vitamin A, they have difficulty with transporting copper, very difficult time recycling their iron.

And it has to do with pretty much what you’ve discovered, which is that if you’re not breathing at that cellular level, effectively, any other environmental triggers are gonna make you that much worse. So I guess the question would be in that process with your son and with your own health, where did oxygen or how did oxygen come into the equation?

Anders Olsson:  Yeah, it was a few years later when I read a book actually how to swap asthma for life by changing your breathing, and it had a profound effect on me on my ability to calm down. I had this racing mind for the majority of my life and looking back I realized that what I wanted more than anything was a way simple, yet effective way to calm down.

And I tried many different things changing my eating habits, training habits, drinking habits, working habits. But it was when I found out about changing your breathing habits, that was the key for me, it has such a huge impact. So almost immediately I noticed the effect, just by turning my breath and changing it, I could notice the effect on being able to calm down. And I thought this is way too good to keep to myself, I really want to spread it to the world.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. Okay, so reading that book, you realize that breathing plays a significant role in your racing mind, I guess, take us through the evolution from there, I guess in terms of what you’ve learned since then, or what you’ve developed?

I know that’s a very broad question. But I guess start us out at the beginning where you’re like, Okay, this is too good, to not share with the rest of the world. But take us through as your knowledge base got bigger, and what you decided to do with your own business.

Anders Olsson: Yeah, so I started to focus all my attention on breathing. And I trained to become a yoga instructor, I trained in the Matejko method, and the Russian professor, late professor Constantine, taiko, and many many other modalities and read tons of research reports and books and tried everything with my own body. And one of the main things I discovered when was the benefits of carbon dioxide. And how it helps you, to regain that balance between activity and recovery and the realization that with every breath, actually, we regulate our nervous system with the inhale, we go in a direction towards activation and fight-flight, while the exhale is the opposite. Ah, if I’m exaggerating, we don’t normally breathe like that, of course, but inhale activation. exhalation is relaxation and recovery and parasympathetic.

And in my view, there is a huge misunderstanding, we have an obsession with oxygen, we think it’s only about oxygen. Of course, we know that we’re super dependent on oxygen because if we stop breathing for just a couple of minutes, we will die. So of course, oxygen is crucial in order to produce energy efficiently.

And then we may think that carbon dioxide is just a simple waste product. And I tried to tell the story that it’s about balance, which almost anything in life is about right, our car doesn’t go better, just because we give it more fuel, it will be just as bad to have too much as to have too little the same with water or with anything, it should be a balance. So our breathing should mimic our body’s needs at any given time. This means that it is different when I’m sitting on the sofa watching TV or if I’m out running.

And this obsession with oxygen and the web we have a tendency to forget that the only possible explanation why we store so little oxygen in our bodies is so that we can only survive for a few minutes. There has to be a reason for that if we compare to the amount of fat and sugar and water and other things we have stored in our body, there are huge reserves, but oxygen is good enough to go by a couple of minutes and the only reason that I can think of is that oxygen is toxic. So that’s the reason why our body stores as little supply as possible.

Because we know that for example, if I take a bite of an apple and put it down, the Apple will turn brown in just a short period of time. So in general, we want to protect our food from oxygen, right because oxygen is extremely reactive. That’s why it’s so important when we want to produce energy in our mitochondria, which we also call the powerhouses the furnaces, there are fires burning in our body in the mitochondria and when you add oxygen to a fire, it will burn better but of course, if you add too much oxygen, it will explode basically because oxygen is so extremely reactive.

So that means it is not good to oh, I took a big breath now I’m oxygenating my body better no actually you don’t you may create more oxygen-free radicals which we also called oxidative stress and inflammations. So that is the one aspect of how many of us are breathing we have a tendency to breathe fast and shallowly or we may breathe through our mouth or hold our breath in, we breathe in a more chaotic way. And all of these can be seen as over-breathing, which means we take in more oxygen than our body needs.

So we increase the oxidative stress. Because when we are at rest with a normal breathing rate, which most people don’t seem to have a normal breathing rate, according to medical textbooks is about six liters per minute, many studies show that we may breathe eight or 10 or 15 liters per minute. So in this normal breathing rate, breathing volume of six liters per minute, we only use up a quarter of the oxygen we inhale, and the rest 75% is exhaled. So already at a Low Breathing volume, very low and slow and rhythmic breathing that most of us don’t engage in, we only use up very little of the oxygen we take into taking a big breath is a complete misunderstanding, we do not oxygenate our body better. So that is the one aspect.

The other aspect is carbon dioxide. And it turns out that carbon dioxide is as far away from just a simple waste product as we can ever come it has many many different important properties in our body, including helping the smooth muscles relax, we have the heart muscles, and we have the skeletal muscles that we can control by well. And then we have the smooth muscles and they surround the airways, the blood vessels, the stomach, the intestines, and so forth.

And when carbon dioxide goes down, which it does, when we over breathe, we breathe slightly faster than we take in more oxygen and exhale more carbon dioxide. So we lower the levels of carbon dioxide in our bodies. And when it does, we will then make these smooth muscles constrict. And because carbon dioxide works closely with nitric oxide, so basically we can say, when carbon dioxide levels go down, nitric oxide production goes down. And nitric oxide is what is actually stimulating the smooth muscles to relax and widen. So, in essence, what I’m trying to say is that when you hyperventilate, the airways will constrict, and they will get more narrow airways and lungs, as well as the blood vessels. So there will be more friction, it will be harder for the air to flow and harder for the blood to flow. So your body had to work harder to oxygenate the muscles deliver the brain etc.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Go it’s amazing, I appreciate the nuances that you’ve picked up in your study. Really, because you can see how Apple evolutionarily, our body has adapted based on the cues of life, right? And you think about and you will probably agree with this. Over the millennia. The program stress response, whenever there’s an increase of sort of unlikelihood for survival being eaten for food or prey, it’s going to create a sympathetic response, which is going to shuttle important nutrients away from the parasympathetic and more for the fleeing. And then ideally that that trigger goes away.

And we get back on with our life. However, as you’ve noticed, as well, not just the rising co2 levels in the environment, but chemicals and toxins and waste products and EMFs and social media and pesticides and sprays and heavy metals and viruses and 5g and dope, you know, cell-cell text messages and stuff. I think it keeps us in a constant hypoxic state, if you will, in terms of we’re not getting enough oxygen and we’re not getting enough buildup of co2. So I guess the question would be was that was missing Enders in terms of when you did all your own research that no one was really emphasizing the importance of co2 or they were over-exaggerating the importance of oh two, was that where you found your little niche in terms of your area of I can bring this information to the masses?

Anders Olsson: Yeah, I think that’s a good way to put it. Yeah. And my main discovery, so I worked with this since 2009. And it was in 2010. When I was already in the beginning started with nasal breathing restrictions Seeing my breathing, breathing lower and slower lower using my diaphragm, slowing down my breathing.

And I realized that that type of breathing also breathing through my nose, helps you to restore the balance between oxygen and carbon dioxide you take in a little less oxygen, and you maintain a little more carbon dioxide. So when I started applying those simple principles when doing physical activity, I noticed that when I increased that, so for example, when I went out for a jog, I took a one-hour jog and I decided to do what I call carbon dioxide training or oxygen restriction training.

And if you look at different training concepts today, they they are actually doing that when you go to high altitude. A lot of elite athletes do they go to high altitudes to increase their blood oxygen-carrying capacity. And at higher altitudes, the oxygen levels are lower. So the body needs to respond to that. So more red blood cells are released into the blood and more are manufactured.

And also more carbon dioxide is retained in the body. And also, when you do high-intensity interval training is the same, you are not able to deliver enough oxygen to your muscles and you’re not able to get rid of all the carbon dioxide is similar to doing high-altitude training. It’s oxygen restriction and carbon dioxide loading if you do, katsu if you know that the Japanese method where you basically put a strap over the muscle that you want to exercise, again, you restrict oxygen and you eat more carbon dioxide in the area and the muscle will get stronger and bigger, faster.

So what I discovered when I went out for this carbon dioxide, training a jog, which meant that I was only breathing through my nose and trying to breathe as few breaths per minute as possible. Taking, for example, two, or three steps on the inhale, and six to eight steps on the exhale. And it was tough, every single step was really tough. I felt oh, I want to take a big breath. But I feel myself while next three next lampposts. And then I can take a big breath. But then again, I set a new small target.

So eventually, I made it home for about one hour. And then the reward came, I was extremely harmonious and calm, I sat down at the kitchen table and felt extremely harmonious a level I haven’t experienced yet, maybe when I got my two kids, but it was on that level. And three, three hours later, I was still sitting there, just super relaxed, wondering what the heck was going on. So I think that was my real starting point to realize the importance of carbon dioxide. If we want to be smarter, kinder, and happier. It’s key to finding a balance between the two. Yeah, no, that’s great.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Observation. Thank you for sharing. I know that. David St. Clair talks about aging is really the breakdown of communication inside the body. And I think if you think about what oxygen is, especially if it’s toxic, it’s a chemical messenger. Same thing with carbon dioxide if it’s not low, or if it needs it starting to build up. It’s a chemical messenger.

And it puts our body in, what we call a danger response. And I use the analogy of thinking of it as the danger response at the macro level where let’s say you have a very low income, and you have a lot of expenses, your body’s not going to be able to keep up with the demand.

And it’s going to prioritize what expenses do get met in order to survive. And then as you build up a surplus, now you’re not just paying interest payments only, but you’re paying into the principal. So I guess paying into the principal, would be the added effects that you’ve listed beyond the blissfulness. So maybe we can talk some about that, that once you’ve been doing this for a long period of time and you retrain your body in terms of having it is more natural with the conscious breathing program.

What can we expect with additional improvements? I guess it’s a two-part question. What is the conscious breathing program? And what additional effects can we anticipate beyond just paying back interest payments, if you will, but you know, cutting into the deficit?

Anders Olsson: Yeah, so we’ll start with the second question. Ultimately, I think it’s longevity. Because if you start studying this,, you realize that animals that have figured this out that are able to live on lower levels of oxygen and tolerate higher levels of carbon dioxide, they live longer. One of the most studied animals is the naked mole rat, it’s just a small rat, but it lives up to 30 years, which is 10 to 15 times longer than its cast in a normal rat, and when it does not suffer from oxidative stress, doesn’t suffer from osteoporosis, it has a low breeding frequency.

And even when you inject cancer cells into the naked mole rat, it does not develop cancer. So in other animals as well, if you look at it, termite queens can live up to 50 years and Queen up to 30 years they live an in the nest below the ground, where there are high levels of carbon dioxide, because all mammals are carbon dioxide factories, right producing carbon dioxide. So it’s similar to asking people if we come together in a room.

And some will complain after a while Oh, I don’t like the air quality, that person has low tolerance for carbon dioxide, most likely, because that is what happened, you shift you lower the oxygen slightly in you increase the carbon dioxide slightly. So that will be the ultimate, I think evidence of learning to tolerate this and finding the right balance. And honestly, this is very important.

That is something that we are not aware of. You mentioned earlier the increase of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. But it’s not like if we compare it to when it’s very cold, we just realize that it’s cold and then we act accordingly we put on more clothes, or if it’s very warm, we adapt to that. But the increase of carbon dioxide exposure to the human body is going very slow.

So when we talk about global warming, it’s all about the increase of carbon dioxide and how horrible that is for the environment. But we don’t realize that this increase which is about 35% in the atmosphere in the last 65 years, that affects our metabolism as well because it is not lack of oxygen that makes us take the next breath it is the buildup of carbon dioxide in our bodies. So carbon dioxide stimulates breathing. And if you then are exposed to more carbon dioxide, and that is not only from the increase in the atmosphere, we spend about 90% of our time indoors.

And we get more and more people on this planet. So we and we live in bigger and bigger cities. So we come together more and more people. So typical indoor air could contain two to three times as much carbon dioxide as atmospheric air. If you sleep with the person in the bedroom with the window and doors closed, typically, in the morning hours after a few nights asleep, the levels in the bedroom will be maybe seven 810 times as high as the atmospheric air and if you go in a car, the levels could also reach very high levels within a short period of time, if you wear a facemask mask, which was very popular during COVID Also your increase to carbon dioxide exposure is increased and the oxygen reduction.

So I think a very important message that I tried to get across is that we have to understand that our exposure to carbon dioxide increases. And if you don’t deal with it, if you don’t learn to tolerate it, you will end up in a permanent state of stress because it drives breathing. And at some point, you will just continue breathing very fast and very shallowly and you will have a huge problem because there are numerous studies linking breathing fast shallow breathing to a number of health issues.

And yeah, and of course, so in my view, carbon dioxide is something good and if you learn to tolerate it, then the benefit is that you will increase your consciousness that was what I felt when I went out for this young good 13 years ago and felt, you know, it aligned with everything In the universe, sort of that, that la la land, that happiness, harmonious feeling that being in the zone, and that is the benefit of learning to tolerate. So it’s basically a divide or a crossroad. Either you learn to tolerate it and you will grow as a person, or you do not learn to tolerate the increased levels of co2, and you end up under more stress. So, that is the answer to question number two. And now I have forgotten questions.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, I remember number one was a little bit more about the conscious breathing program. But we’ll get there in a second because I want to make a comment on that. So it seems like the buildup of carbon dioxide is the most fundamental hormetic stressor that we need to be able, to adapt to. And when I say hormesis, hormesis is the exposure to stressors, toxins, and environmental triggers, that make us stronger over time by adapting to them.

And when I say someone has a very little surplus, or their demand and supply has been so unequal for so long, that even their autonomic nervous system is not able to regulate itself, because you’re so far behind on the bills, if you will, that you’re not even paying for power and you know, food on the table. That’s where your body is not able to regulate its temperature. When it’s cold, it’s hard to warm up when it’s hot, it’s hard to cool down. When you stand up, you get a drop in blood pressure, you might feel lightheaded when you go up a flight of stairs, and your heart rate seems to be rhythmic.

And it seems to be very fluttery. So I think it’s really important with what you’re saying the next leap is you can’t separate the emotional component to that either. Right? Whereas, let’s say that’s happening to me emotionally a higher order. Human beings and creatures, we now have that thought, you know, the upper part of the brain where we attach meaning and purpose to it, and then we start to get freaked out, Oh, my God, this isn’t good. I’m awful, I’m going to die. I feel that’s where I think the emotional component comes in, where if you can regulate that breathing, so that you’re tolerating the co2, and you’re creating that increased blood flow to the areas of the brain that is enriching it, but it’s not dominated by that limbic center of fight or flight and fear. I think, would you agree, I guess the question is, would you agree that as you be able to tolerate this carbon dioxide tolerance, that naturally, it stands to reason that the only way you’re going to do that is by shutting off the emotional, negative sympathetic contacts that are being placed on it? Does that make sense? The question that I’m asking you is.

Anders Olsson: I mean, studies show that there is emotional breathing. So if I am angry, my breath signature has a specific angry signatory, if I’m stressed out, I have a different stress, a different breathing in which studies have shown so by there was a very interesting study where they took a group of people and have them try to go into specific emotions, and then afterward describing their breathing, and there were specific patterns for specific emotional states.

And then I took another group and asked them to breathe in that specific way. And they were able to get into that emotion just by breathing in that specific way. So it goes both ways, right? Your breathing is a reflection of your state physically, mentally, and emotionally. And by changing the way you breathe, you can change these states.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Right. It’s you know, it’s almost like the reverse Pavlovian dog experiments where you have the bell that rings and then you give the dog some powder to make it salivate. And then you no longer need to give it the powder because the bell has been paired with the stimuli. But in this case, you’re asking the natural reflexive response of fear to be changed in terms of everything’s okay slowing down your breathing, conscientiously feeling the release or, you know, really training your brain. I guess that would be a good segue into conscious breathing in the program that you’ve developed.

How important is the thought process besides the mechanical extra breaths out last breaths in or timing how Orton is the actual conscientiousness or the emotional state, when faced with those stressors, honors in your program?

Anders Olsson: Yeah, so firstly, if we just address what is conscious breathing, so firstly, it’s a way to understand my nervous system being able to read it and realize that, as I mentioned earlier, with every breath, we shift, with every breathing cycle, we shift between activation and relaxation, and many of us seem to be stuck in a state of stress and activation and fight-flight, which is not bad per se, of course, we need it. But the problem is if we are there too often for too long. So that is the first pillar.

The second pillar is breath knowledge and breath awareness, the understanding of what happens in our body, when we breathe, that gives us a y, which makes it easy to engage in different breathing exercises, not just because someone tells you to do something, but you also understand that the nose is there to protect your lungs, it helps you to to clean the bacteria and viruses that we inherited helps you to warm and humidify the air, etc.

And the other part of that is breath awareness, the awareness of your daily breathing habits, how are you breathing when you talk, when you eat when you do physical activity? Is there a connection between when you’re stressed out, and as you’re breathing, then shallow and fast? Or do you hold your breath when concentrating? So starting to pay attention to that and get an awareness that is usually the first step towards change, understanding, oh my god, there is a connection, I don’t know where it comes from, I’m that scared. And then when I look at my breathing, my breathing pattern is also that scary.

And then we can do something about it. So the third pillar of conscious breathing is to help you calm your nervous system, you can, of course, go in both directions, you can easily activate your nervous system just by starting to read faster and shallow or hold your breath. But what we found is that most people like to have tools to calm their nervous system. And it’s very simple. The principles are very simple.

The typical hallmarks of activation, and breathing, are mouth breathing, fast breathing, shallow breathing, holding the breath, noisy breathing, and labored breathing. And if you want to change from a state of fight-flight into a state of safe and security and rest and digest, you just do the opposite, close your mouth. Breathe low, using your diaphragm slowly and rhythmically, and quietly. And the best way to do that is usually just to close your mouth and prolong your exhale slightly.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, and I guess is there a step four, step five, where you start to pair it with a positive emotion or a celebration or gratitude or a different form of energy that shows up beside the sympathetic thoughts that are automatically paired with the with all those bore ways of breathing?

Anders Olsson: Yeah, so we didn’t have conscious breathing, we have the exhale exercises, which are both physical exercises to help you open up your airway soon because even though our diaphragm is our most important breathing muscle, it’s supposed to do 70 to 80% of the muscular work, moving the air in and out of the lungs at rest. But there are many different muscles in our neck and throat and back, and chest that are involved in breathing, and many of them if they are stiff and tense, will inhibit the flow of air, it will make it harder to breathe. So these exercises help to open up the airways and make it easy for the air to flow in and out of the lungs. And the other part of the Excel exercises is one that helps you to find your inner calm, like guided relaxation exercises. Right.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Excellent. So that’s great. So then, as far as I know, you’ve also developed a couple of tools besides your course. One is the body stream dry co2 bath. So I’m very interested to discuss that how that came about and, giving our listeners exactly what that does in terms of harnessing co2, so maybe you can elaborate on how you came up with that.

Anders Olsson: Yeah, so the carbon dioxide did A suit we call body stream, it was if you imagine an astronaut sawed it suit that you put on, and then you vacuum pump out all the air, and then you fill it up with carbon dioxide, and then the carbon dioxide is absorbed through the skin. And it turns out that hot springs, which has been popular for centuries, that the main effect people get from them, they notice an effect on the heart and the circulation on the skin. And the mental capacity, the ability to calm down, the major effects from these hot springs is actually carbon dioxide.

And since not all of us can have a hot spring in our backyard. There have been ways of developing alternatives and the dry carbon dioxide bath is one of those. So it’s not our product is not unique in that sense. But yeah, as I mentioned earlier, I’ve started carbon dioxide a lot and see so many benefits when you read the studies. I read a few studies today.

One was about the increase of muscular mitochondria when exposed to carbon dioxide. Another one was where they broke the legs of 140 rats and exposed them to carbon dioxide. And it was a huge improvement in healing when exposed to carbon dioxide compared to the control group. Right? Yeah, so there are many, many effects and where we describe it is as parasympathetic Deluxe, because it really helps people to wind down. And that’s where our popular term is to boost your immune system. And I think the optimum way of doing that, or one of the best ways of doing that is just to calm down because then there will be a lot of energy for the immune system.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. Excellent. And as far as the relax it or tell us a little bit about that I’m interested to know about how that works and how that helps for carbon dioxide tolerance.

Anders Olsson: Yes, the whole principle of conscious breathing is actually to help restore the balance between oxygen and carbon dioxide. So whether it’s the body stream or relaxing Sater and the other products we have, it’s about restricting the oxygen intake slightly and increasing the carbon dioxide tolerance by simply slowing down our breathing. So the relaxation gives you a resistance on the out-breath, you put it in your mouth, you inhale through the nose, and out through relaxation and you set a resistance very easily of your choice.

And then you prolong the exhale slightly. So this little device then helps you to slow down your breathing, getting a low and slow and rhythmic breathing that more than anything, I would say, gives the brain a steady supply of oxygen. So if I’m in if I have a tight deadline, or if I just need to concentrate and want to be focused. So for example, right now I’m updating my book. It’s a fantastic tool because the brain doesn’t need any pauses. I’m not saying that I’m not taking any pauses.

But I have come to realize that the reason why oh, I need to go to the bathroom, I need to have a cup of coffee, I need to call my best friend, I need to clean the toilet, or whatever. When we’re engaging in these tasks that demand a lot of us the brain figures out ways to take us away from that. And I think a major reason for that is that we either shift between either breathing too fast or holding our breath, which disturbs the oxygen supply to the brain. And that means the brain gets stressed out more than anything. It wants to predict what’s coming and it wants to predict the oxygen supply. So if you can have this rhythmic, low, and slow breathing, the brain will calm down and it’s easy for you to stay focused for a long time.

Dr. Joel Rosen: So okay, so that is that would you suggest that with a bunch of different tasks that we normally get fidgety with or just at any time or with walking meditation? What’s the best way to use that device? Oh, yeah.

Anders Olsson: So I mainly use it in front of my computer when working but many people love Using it in the car before going to sleep, maybe in bed or before getting up in the morning, when watching TV when cooking all kinds of situations, since it’s so little and lightweight, you can have it in your mouth for a long time without a problem. And any situation where you find, okay, I have some it’s possible for me to also do breathing retraining. For example, if I’m in the car for half an hour or an hour every day, it’s a perfect way of retraining my breathing helping me to achieve this rhythmic, low slow breathing more and more often.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, excellent. Okay. And as far as I have a couple of other questions, I know that one of the big things that you talk about is sleep. So maybe we could explain why balancing your co2 and your oh two in conscious breathing will have an impact on your sleep.

Anders Olsson: Yeah, so we recommend everyone to take their mouth shot at night. So we have developed a product for this called Sleep tape. And I participated a few years ago in a study at Stanford together with James Nesta who wrote the book Breath where he talks about the study quite a bit. And what we did was for 10 days and 10 Nights, we blocked our nose, so we could only breathe through our mouth. And our sleep was the thing that got most negatively affected.

And we went from no snoring, for example, to three hours of snoring per night, I woke every morning with dry as a desert in my mouth. And during the night I was fidgeting and bouncing back and forth and waking up many times. And then after these 10 days, we did so and we did a number of tests every day, I think we tested things around three hours per day, from blood to HRV, to standing on one leg to doing push-ups, a lot of things.

And then we did 10 days of conscious breathing, which included taping our mouth shut at night. And again, I was down to no snoring at all, it was a huge difference comparing the two. So we all know the effect that a bad night’s sleep has on our performance and our mood the next day. But we have a tendency I would say in today’s society to not prioritize our sleep, we wake up to the alarm, which basically means that we drag our body out of bed when it’s not fully rested, the body wants to stay in bed, but our map mind forces it to go up.

So sleep is crucial for everything from learning. If if, if you read a book and I question you about the content of the book, and I do that the same day, your results will not be as good as if I question you the next day because during the night the brain will be able to all the stimuli that you are being exposed to during the day will be sorted and categorized and put in different boxes and so that you can understand and get the bigger picture.

And also the brain is cleaned. At night. It’s like when you go to bed you push the button to the dishwasher and washing machine. Because that is quite recently discovered, right we have our body’s lymphatic system, which is our sewage system to get rid of waste products. The brain’s cleaning system is called the glymphatic system. And that is not active in the daytime. It’s only when we sleep and it’s not only about the hours, it’s also about the quality of our sleep. So I think that is crucial. Sleep is so underrated, I would say.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I think you’re just it’s interesting to see you and hear your evolution of the balancing of the fine, the fine act between too little and too much. And I’m glad and thank you for really shedding light on the importance of the oxygen-carbon dioxide balance. Because ultimately, if you’re I’ve said this a lot with the people we work with that are exhausted, tired burnt out you either have oxygen work for you or you have oxygen work against you. It’s not really in between if you will.

And if you are able to harness oxygen effectively so that you’re making ATP and energy and carbon dioxide and that’s in a good balance and that’s right out of biochemistry 101 Then there’s gonna be less stress or dry go. And that’s what the definition of mechanical stress is right? Whenever there’s an unclean formula, and vice versa, if you’re not able to do that, then you’re going to have oxygen use work against you. And so many challenges, I guess one more area I’d get into is, if someone’s listening to this, and you have a lot of great information and blog posts and articles on your website, which we’ll post a link to, and, and be able to hopefully offer our listener a discount on your products. Why is it that it would help and facilitate weight loss or fat loss?

Anders Olsson: Well, in order to, I mean, we usually burn fat or sugar right in our body to produce entity and sugar can be fermented outside of the mitochondria, but fat cannot, that needs oxygen to be burned. So if we start to engage in this, over breathing, if we start to have an imbalance between oxygen and carbon dioxide, there will be areas of our body that will receive less oxygen than it needs. And then we basically shut the door slightly to our fat reserves.

So we have seen over and over how people that start to slow down their breathing, open up the doors to the fat reserves, they are able to burn more fat, which makes a lot of sense. And if you study people that are overweight, there are very, very few to be honest when they are walking. And even if sometimes when they are sitting, they have their mouth open, which is the hallmark of stress breathing poor oxygenation.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Yeah, no, I’m glad you shared that insight. Because it is again out of the biochemistry of one on one aerobic respiration using oxygen. So I always say you’re either using oxygen for you or you’re not. So I always like to ask my guests when we’re coming to the end here on there’s knowing what you know, now versus what you didn’t know, then what would you have told the younger version of yourself?

That you know, now a lot sooner than you’d had to figure out to help your quality of life or your purpose or, or just overcome stressors? What would that youthful sort of sage-like information, you would have told your younger self? What would that have been?

Anders Olsson: I would have told my younger self to shut his mouth and prolong his exhale.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Where is everything we just said, right? Because that will help you balance carbon dioxide be able to increase blood flow, be able to turn off your sympathetic system, be able to produce more energy effectively with fewer free radicals and be able to ultimately get where you want. But then you might not have discovered all these other you may not have gotten down these other pathways. Curious, how is your son doing now?

Anders Olsson: Oh, I mean, that was when he was six. He’s now 25. So So Cory is there? He’s doing fine. But he got help with traditional medical treatment with strong doses of antibiotics.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, and hope he’s a conscious breather as well now.

Anders Olsson: Yeah, I would say so.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, listen, I appreciate your time. Andres Olson, as we said, is the founder of conscious breathing. He’s got amazing products and is able to support your stress response so that you’re not living in that sympathetic fight or flight. And that’s what I really liked about what you do is, is that a lot of people will get on the magic diet or the, like, 1001 different supplements.

And really breathing is like you mentioned, it’s not just that we’re supposed to breathe, but how are we supposed to breathe is really key. And thank you for your time. And we’ll post links to all of your, your information at the end of this podcast and wherever we’re uploading it to social media. And I wish you nothing but continued success in your endeavors. And thank you for everything that you do.

Anders Olsson: Thank you and thank you, Dr. John, for having me. It’s been a pleasure.

If you’re interested in trying any of Anders’s products go here, and be sure to use discount code drjoel10 

The post Biohacking Breathing For Stress Relief and Massive Energy Production appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Welcome back once again to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their energy back quickly. And again, what another pleasure that I have here today with Dr. Bob Miller, this is our third edition. But each time we do it, there’s so much more information to go over.

And that’s why I reached out to him again, but Bob is a traditional naturopath specializing in the field of genetics specific nutrition, and he’s earned his naturopathic degree from Trinity School of Natural Health, he opened his tree of life and has served naturopathic traditional approaches for 27 years. And for the past several years, he’s been engaged exclusively with the functional nutritional genetic variants and related research, Bob, I know I could go on and on, but we want to give the listener some incredible value today. So thank you so much for your time.

Dr. Bob Miller: Oh, it was an honor to be here, and so much fun to work with people like you who understand this and see the value of it and want to pass it on to their viewers. So we’re gonna have some fun today.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Excellent. Yes, I appreciate that. So I will be quite honest. And I haven’t been on every single one of your webinars. But what I do is because you have a archive, I’ll really go down those archives and really go in sort of a binge, if you will. So I’ve been on a binge recently, and like, I got to reach out to Bob, because there’s so much more that we know.

And I think it’s probably just best for you to take over the steering wheel and tell us what you’ve been learning about environmental factors that overlap with genetic susceptibility that create these perfect storms of people that are getting sicker and sicker and sicker and seeing more and more people that have very little answers for them. And maybe just take it away from there, Bob.

Dr. Bob Miller: Okay, sounds like a plan. I’m gonna do a screen share here and see, there we go. You’re seeing the screen. Okay. Yep, we’re seeing the screen. Okay, the two things we want to talk about today as grantees, and ferroptosis. And these may be terms that some of your listeners may have never even heard of before. And we’re going to be trying to explain what they are, how we get there. And then, of course, what we can do for it. And of course, you know, I was mentioning, this is educational, informational only, we’re not telling people how to diagnose or treat any disease.

So as I often say, this is the 3d chess game played underwater, because a lot of times people are looking for, oh, what’s the snip? What’s the gene? And then what do I do for it, and I’m learning over time, that it’s much more complex than that. I mean, there are a couple of snips in genetics that might be related to disease. But many of the things we’re seeing today are just, as you mentioned, tired adrenals worn out, because they’re making so much mast cells and histamine.

And I believe these are two pathways that will create that the production of something called grantees and ferroptosis. But as you mentioned, this is more than just genetics, its environmental factors. There’s an old saying of genetics loads, the gun environment pulls the trigger, and we’re being exposed to so many new environmental factors, you’ll you’ll get a kick out of this, one of my jokes is when I, when I talk to people, I’ll say, you know, I was born in 1954.

And that means I was born on a different planet than we are today. When I was, when I was born, there was no such thing as high fructose corn syrup. We didn’t give the animals growth hormones, we didn’t genetically modify the foods. We didn’t have all the Wi Fi and cell phones. Our waters weren’t polluted with plastics, we didn’t have all the agricultural chemicals. We are just living in a soup of chemicals that nobody’s ever done any long term studies as to how they impact us. And when you look at how people are getting sicker, I mean, autism used to be one out of 1000.

Now, it’s one out of 4445. You know, when I was young, we used to call it adult onset diabetes. Now children are getting autoimmune disease is going through the roof. Something is happening. Our genetics haven’t changed. They’re the same as they were 100 years ago. But the environment has changed drastically. And unfortunately, some people have genetic predispositions that they can’t handle that as well. That’s why you’ll see two people living in a house.

And one person is terribly impacted by the mold. And the other one says, this is all in your head because I don’t feel a thing. And when they don’t feel anything, they don’t know that it’s that it’s real. But it really is, and the environmental factors will affect one person more than another. And that’s what we’re going to talk about here today, Dr. Rosen, how the environmental factors are impacting those with some less than optimal genetic detoxification.

Now, one of the first things we want to talk about his grantees and I would imagine, this is a term a lot of people have never heard as an interesting name, regulated upon activation, normal T cells expressed and secreted that is quite the quite the phrase, but it’s a powerful pro inflammatory mediator of the chemotactic cytokine chemokine family. And it just says your regulates the mobilization and survival of immune inflammatory cells from the bloodstream into tissues, and other areas of injury and infection. The rant is associated with several detrimental effects or to use grossest liver disease, viral infections.

And anything that interferes or slows down this ranty is associated with improved outcomes. So here’s how it’s created. Platelets, macrophages, epithelial cells, T lymphocytes, and it stimulates histamine secretion by mast cells. Now, Dr. Rosen I’m sure you’re seeing so many people with high levels of histamine coming into your office on a regular basis. Mike Mike, correct on that, correct? Yes, absolutely. And it regulates T cells, macrophages, Isana, fills and basophils to the sites of inflammation.

Now, I’m gonna go through these rather quickly. I’m not going to read all the slides, but just to give some ideas of some of the conditions that the scientists are believing are related to ratties. It’s related to hepatic injury, that’s your, your liver promotes fibrosis, by modulating hepatic inflammation, so it can damage the liver. It’s associated with autism spectrum disorder. So the hypothesis is that altered chemokine levels are involved in in with autism spectrum disorder.

It’s related to just inflammation grantees plays a fundamental role in histamine and serotonin generation and cell function and mast cells. Now you have a sophisticated audience here who has listened to you about about the adrenals. And we’ll get into this a little bit later. But as we all know, the adrenals need to make the cortisol that deals with the histamine.

So anything that creates more histamine is going to stress the adrenals. In a study of eczema grantees, and its receptors were shown to play potentially important roles in the infiltration, the ongoing chronic inflammation of the atopic eczema also reflects the severity of the disease. It controls the recruitment of leukocytes within the vascular wall, so it may have a relationship to arteriosclerosis inflammatory bowel disease, when they looked at the colonic tissue with patients such as Crohn’s disease, there was significant redundancy in the generation of the signals in chronic inflammation from grantees viral lung disease.

So this, this was made quite well known by a physician who was studying COVID And he found the rantings was often very high, Dr. Patterson, and a study of 10 terminally ill critical COVID-19 patients, profound elevation of interleukin six, that’s that cytokine, storm, and ranty is the infection of respiratory epithelial cells equals an upregulation of that Randy’s secretion. So there does seem to be a relationship between serious COVID and high levels of grantees.

And we’ll actually very soon be going through the the pathway maps and shows how that works. diagnosis of prostate cancer was significantly associated with the grantees. And this study says are results in previously published findings on genes associated with innate immunity support the hypothesis that polymorphisms in pro inflammatory genes may be important in prostate cancer development. So those are some of the things that that can cause it now. Don’t be too intimidated by this chart. We’re going to take you through step by step and show you what’s what’s happening.

Let me grab the the drawing tool here. And we will do a little bit of drawing. Alright, I want to bring your attention to TNF a tumor necrosis factor alpha. One of the things I like to say about this enzyme is that this is our friend, unless it isn’t, and what I mean by that, when we’re faced with a pathogen of any kind, that we need to kill or even a cancer cell, tumor necrosis factor comes to the rescue. It stimulates something called NF kappa B which is inflammatory. Then it stimulates the KNOX enzyme NADPH oxidase.

And you know, Dr. Rosen, I’ve been I’ve been talking about NOx for for years, I’ll just do a little explanation of that. NADPH oxidase is a fascinating enzyme. It is part of our immune system. It’s there to come to the rescue, to create mast cells and histamine. When there’s some bad guy in the body that we need to eradicate. Animal studies show if you knock this guy out, short period of time the animal dies of infection can’t survive. But there are now so many environmental factors that are old we’re stimulating NOx.

And this is why we’re seeing so much autoimmune disease. Now, let me back up here you’ll notice that mycotoxins, virus, Clostridium Lyme disease, lipid polysaccharides, all will stimulate this tnfa. So if we’re in chronic mycotoxin exposure, and there’s there’s debate on this, but no, Dr. Dietrich Klinghardt has hypothesized that Wi Fi and cell phones is making mycotoxins stronger. And just for me, in my own health coaching, so many of the individuals who are struggling, we find out they’re living in mold, and they have mycotoxins. Are you finding the same thing?

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, absolutely. And to your point, the exactly the EMFs, that they have the genetic weaknesses on, create that perfect storm even further.

Dr. Bob Miller: Absolutely. Now, people that are born in England, Ireland, and sometimes Germany and Ashkenazi Jewish, many times have genetics that they absorb more iron. And you and I were just talking before the before the call that I need to add more to this, there’s other genes related to this. But anytime you have extra iron, that will also stimulate Tufa.

And we’ll get a little bit more into that when we when we talked about ferroptosis. Now the body is very amazing. In that, we also have mechanisms to slow this all down. There is an enzyme called cert, one that inhibits NF kappa B and NOx holds it back. So what an amazing intelligence there is in the body, Dr. Rosen, that this cert, one will say, you know, I think you’re getting a little carried away here. Let’s just hold this back a little bit. Let’s not get too carried away with inflammation.

There is one snip of one RS number, which is a genetic mutation that can down regulate certain one. But we’re going to look back someday and say, oops, if you remember earlier, I said, I was born on a different planet when there was no high fructose corn syrup. We’re going to look back on high fructose corn syrup and say, What are we thinking? Because it down-regulates cert one.

So no wonder we might be seeing so many issues today. And unfortunately, if you look at the foods that have high fructose corn syrup, it’s pretty amazing. It only came about in the mid-70s. And the use of it has just increased dramatically. So high fructose corn syrup isn’t good for anyone. But particularly if you have that one cert one mutation where this is weak, you really need to avoid high fructose corn syrup. Now there is another enzyme called heme oxygenase H O one and H O two.

And it makes something called Billy Verdun and Billy Rubin and people might be saying, well, Billy Rubin isn’t that why? When babies are born, sometimes they’re yellow and they’re put under a lamp. And Billy Rubin if that goes too high, isn’t that an indication of liver disease?

Absolutely. But interestingly, a small amount of bilirubin. This blew me away Dr. Oz when I saw this research, it inhibits tumor necrosis factor, inhibits NF kappa B inhibits NOx and inhibits il six. So we didn’t talk about yet inhibits all of those. Now, you can have genetic mutations on heme oxygenase one. There’s also an enzyme called nerf to NRF two that stimulates heme oxygenase.

You can have mutations here. I keep one enzyme this gets a little complicated. It inhibits the nerve to but it’s kind of like a valve that senses when there’s inflammation and what it does it releases the nerve to but you can have genetic mutations that nerve to is up regulated. Now interestingly, there’s an enzyme called il 10. That supports nerve two. But if you’re exposed to a mycotoxin, called citrinin, that citrinin can inhibit interleukin 10. So there are some mycotoxins that will stimulate inflammation.

Some mycotoxins that will leave in fight against your body to stop the inflammation. Then this whole thing needs something called heme. And there are eight steps that we go through to make that heme and we can have genetic mutations along the way here that will impede that. And then also, there’s growing concern that roundup glyphosate may inhibit glycine is debated.

Now some people say it does. Some people say it doesn’t. It inhibits the glycine which is needed for this process to work. Often when this is not working well, we get what’s called hangry, where we’ll get agitated, fearful, and worried. And then we have something to eat, particularly a carbohydrate, and we feel better. And then this is sustainable COA from the Krebs cycle.

So if there’s anything impacting mitochondrial function, where we don’t have enough glycine, or we have glyphosate, or we have genetic mutations long here, we don’t make enough heme. And then finally, there’s a very fascinating enzyme called por that donates something called NADPH. To the heme oxygenase enzymes for them to do their work. Talk about a 3d chess game here, Dr. Rosen. There’s an enzyme called fad, which is dependent upon riboflavin.

You can have genetic mutations in your riboflavin. You can have genetic mutations on por G six PD is a genetic mutation that often occurs in southern Italians, Native Americans, Africans. So many people from South America where you don’t make enough NADPH. And yet even further complicated, it’s controlled by nerf two and keep one. So you can see how nerf two plays a role in giving the body what it needs plus controlling it.

Now, we spent about maybe 90 seconds on that if somebody really finds this fascinating. If you go on YouTube, and type Carnahan, C AR n d h, an n for Dr. Joe Carnahan, he, Dr. Carnahan, and I spent about an hour and a half just on this pathway here, pulling up all the peer-reviewed studies on what I believe Rubin does, just blew me away when I learned about it because I just thought bilirubin is a bad thing.

So what I’m saying here now is that when we get these environmental factors, made worse by people with genetic mutations, and if I didn’t mention, you can actually have genetic mutations on TNF that make it trigger-happy, overactive, you might have some iron, you’re eating a lot of high fructose corn syrup, you’re being exposed to a lot of glyphosates, you got mutations here, you are not able to hold back that inflammation, then we get mast cells. And I’m sure everybody’s now heard of mast cell activation syndrome. What? What percentage of the people you see Dr. Rosen Do you think you see with with mast cell activation?

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I would go as far as say 100. Right, because by the time they come to you and me, they have already exhausted a lot of their health challenges. And at some level, whether they have the gene snips or not, which they’ll have some form of a combination of the perfect storm of those environmental challenges. Because we live in a world that was different than the one you were born in. Ultimately, I’d say probably every single one of them would go as far as saying that to Bob.

Dr. Bob Miller: Yeah, I would say 85 90% of the folks that I see a mast cell activation. In other words, if somebody doesn’t know what that is, mast cells, again, they’re our friend unless they aren’t, meaning that they’re there to kill pathogens, or like the police or the military. We wouldn’t live without them. But when they become over-activated, they start attacking the body. There are also genes called the kit genes that can be mutated that are upregulation, as well. Then we make histamine.

And I’m sure, probably a third of the people listening to this at some time or another in their life have trouble with histamine. Well, if you’re overproducing it, that’s one thing but there are also enzymes called ADP, one that makes an enzyme called data mine oxidase that degrades it, and there’s something called histamine and methyl transferase. That takes his time and turns it into a form that I don’t have listed here.

That then has to be cleared by my OA and my OB interestingly controlled by a certain one, and then the aldehydes are the last step. So talking about the adrenals. The adrenal glands are very much involved in trying to deal with all this histamine through cortisol. We’ll show that in a little more detail later. So your adrenals are going to get worn out if this is constantly a problem. Now the next thing is that histamine stimulates an enzyme called ions inducible nitric oxide synthase. So let’s talk about nitric oxide a little bit. People confuse this with nitrous oxide.

That’s why the dentist uses nitric oxide if you Google Nitric oxide Nobel Prize, you’ll see three scientists in 1998 who won Nobel Prizes for their work on nitric oxide as it relates to cardiovascular. Nitric oxide dilates the blood vessels plus does a whole bunch of other things. So the NOS three enzyme is what makes the nitric oxide that helps with circulation.

Nos to is somewhat related to your immune system that when we’re exposed to the virus, bacteria pathogens parasites, this guy kicks in and makes a lot of nitric oxide to kill. Is that a good thing? Yeah, unless it’s overactive, you’ll hear me say this many times. So this extra histamine can stimulate this. There are two snips in nos two that actually make it overactive. Okay.

And you’ll notice up here it says Carnahan reaction. We actually named this after Dr. Joe Carnahan, who actually had some up regulations of her nos enzymes. So if you’re intrigued with this, again, just go on YouTube, Carnahan. And then I nos I nos. And again, about an hour and a half on this. And that’s just even just touching the surface. But what happens is there’s a substance called BH for tetrahydrobiopterin.

What’s needed to make nitric oxide? Now, we don’t have it on this chart, but there are genetic mutations that can cause you to make less of this. After BH four does its job of donating it turns into BH two, and needs to be recycled. Well, if it’s not recycled, or overused, we run out of BH for BH two is the only thing that’s available. Nos keeps running. And rather than making nitric oxide, we make a free radical called superoxide. And I’m sure people have maybe heard the term Raynaud’s where people’s hands and feet are so cold, that they sometimes turn white or purple.

That is related to not enough of the NOS. INR suppresses Enos so in other words, when their body’s got to an invader to fight, it says, circulation, you got to take a backseat, we got to kill somebody. Again, we need that for protection. But when it’s overactive, we have a problem. Then to add insult to injury, the superoxide combines with nitric oxide to make something called peroxynitrite, which is very damaging, and very inflammatory. And if that’s not bad enough, it further inhibits pH four. And we’re on one merry-go-round here. Dr. Rosen that just creates a problem. How much brain odds do you see in your practice?

Dr. Joel Rosen: I don’t know. It’s probably 50%. It’s part of the symptomatology of cold everywhere. You know, lack of blood flow brain fog? Are you correlating it with all sorts of vascular decreases in blood flow?

Dr. Bob Miller: Absolutely. Yeah, these people also oftentimes get spider veins and varicose veins. Now, not to stimulate or activate your platelets. And this makes your platelets sticky. Well, what happens when that happens? You’re more prone to strokes and clots, which of course right now we’re seeing a tremendous increase in then here we go. We stimulate grantees. That’s what we started talking about grantees.

Now it doesn’t end there. Grantees come over here and stimulate mast cells that stimulate more histamine that stimulates grantees. And we’ve got one merry-go-round going on here, just a feedback loop that just keeps going. And that’s why some people are like, I don’t know what’s wrong, it just seems like you’re getting worse and worse. Now, again, the body is pretty amazing. We all know the benefits of fish oils.

And many people take fish oils, and they’re helpful. And I’m sure you’ll see some people who take fish oils as a quid made me worse why? There are enzymes called fads, fatty acids, and desaturate aces that actually have to take those fats and put them into a form that we can use. And I’m sure if anyone’s ever looked at a bottle of fish oils, they say EPA and DHA, and DHA is the one that’s most inflammatory.

There’s a mutation here that can occur on El OBL to that this last step doesn’t occur. But look at the cofactor. We need NADPH for these guys to work. And I don’t know if I pointed this out. But the KNOX enzyme uses NADPH to make inflammation. So NADPH is a fascinating molecule. It is used to help the fats be useful. It helps recycle your glutathione it does many good things in the body. It’s needed. If you look down here, it’s one of the factors needed for nitric oxide.

But the KNOX enzyme also uses it to make inflammation. So let me say that again. NADPH can be used by some enzymes to be anti-inflammatory. But they can use by the KNOX enzyme to make inflammation, that’s the only molecule I’m aware of, they can play a dual role, reduce inflammation, or make inflammation. Well, if this guy is running all the time, you don’t have enough here to help deal with your fats. You take fish oils, and you feel worse. So that’s why Bob Miller hypothesis. And that’s just it. That overstimulation of NOx is the key thing that’s occurring. And I’m going to show you how that actually occurs in ferroptosis. So I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of many of our listeners ever heard of, like SPM actives. They are fish oils that are processed down to the point where they get these protections, and resolvins. And then that helps with this activation of the platelets. So now I’m going to go over another direction here. Any comments or questions so far?

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I personally have I think eight or maybe 13, homozygous FTAs, and so forth. Are you seeing that be very common to Bob?

Dr. Bob Miller: Extremely. And what’s interesting, you know, we have, you know, for those of us who do this work, we’re many times the last person that we see, I mean, people who like for myself as a traditional naturopath, we’re not the first place. I often get referrals from physicians around the world of I don’t know what to do anymore. See if Bob gives any insight, one of the most common things we see is mutations in the fads enzymes because you just cannot make the protections and resolvins to calm it down. So when I see this, I tell people, I have some friends for life for you.

And that would be things like pant Athene choline, a digestive enzyme that has helped break down fats, you can’t fix your genetics, I should have mentioned this in the beginning. At that moment, the sperm and the egg went together. Nine months before you were born, your genetic pattern was made. When you leave this earth, it’s going to be identical.

So if you inherit some of these mutations, you can’t fix it, but you can compensate for it. So these people oftentimes need to take DHA, or protections and resolvins, or some things that help them break down the fats. But also we got to calm down NOx. Now what happens in this TNFA gets upregulated either by genetic mutations, environmental toxins, lack of the tea box, or not being able to hold back extra iron, there’s an enzyme called PLA too. Now this little diagram up here, this little line rather, is your the membrane of your cells.

And there’s something called arachidonic acid that is stored in the cells and plays a good role. It’s not all bad. arachidonic acid isn’t all bad. But when it’s yanked out of the cell membrane, it can go down multiple pathways, it can go down through Cox two and make inflammation. It can go down through Cox one and make something called thromboxane. That can make your blood clotting.

It can go down 12 blocks and we’re going to talk about that. Next, I’m just going to hold that thought where it can go down five blocks and make what is called Luca tries, that can be can be very inflammatory leukotrienes are associated with hearing loss, heart palpitations, arrhythmias, and beginnings of memory loss. So we won’t have time to get into that today but either five locks 12 locks, Cox one, or Cox two.

Now there’s an interesting urine test called urine inflammation that measures the thromboxane a two and probably in most of the people we talked to in our health coach and we have them do a little finger prick test called a mega quant that measures the arachidonic acid, the EPA and the DHA and then looks at the ratios. So look who calms down PLA to recall steroids from the adrenal glands.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Bob, can I ask that question? Sorry, I know I won’t remember because every time you say something so insightful. I come up with another question. So I hope you don’t mind. I’m interrupting. As far as the inflammation test that tests the thromboxane and then you’re doing the mega quant? When you’ve mentioned that you’ll see pathways like us together. Can you tell us about the utility of those two tests when certain values are low in one area and high in the other? How it directs your approach to help with those patients?

Dr. Bob Miller: Very, very good question. What’s interesting is, as I said thromboxane you know makes the blood thick. And actually this this test is sometimes used to see if aspirin has been effective in helping the clotting But what I’ve noticed is again, Bob Miller clinical observation only, okay? But sometimes we’ll see higher arachidonic acid and high thromboxane.

Sometimes we’ll see higher arachidonic acid and low thromboxane. What I’ve been hypothesizing and it’s just that just a theory that when this is high in this isn’t, it’s not going down this pathway and is likely going down one of the others, and just from a clinical observation standpoint, that seems to be correct. So they two go hand in hand. This is called an inflammation test, and some people are freaked out were like, Well, I’m beyond perfectly normal, what’s wrong? Nothing.

I believe that it’s going down other pathways. And there are mutations in the 12 blocks, and I’m gonna get to next that really creates what’s called this Therap ptosis. So here’s your, here’s your adrenal fatigue, your adrenals are just beating the band as hard as they can to make the cortical steroids to calm this down. So what we have to do for this, is there are various nutrients that we won’t we won’t get into today, but there are various nutrients. One example is something called City Choline.

There’s also resveratrol, they calm this down, but you also have to get out of the mold. And I can’t emphasize enough how I believe mycotoxins is is a huge factor for many individuals. Great Plains has a test on mycotoxins in real-time. Dr. Andrew Campbell has a test as well as lots of ways to check for your peer mycotoxins. Then as we make more histamine, as we said, that stimulates the grantees, the mast cells, and here we have yet another feedback loop that just feeds on itself.

So what we want to do now Dr. Rosen is we want to move towards the next pathway, because I believe I covered everything here. So I’m now going to go to something called ferroptosis oxidative damage, which means the cells are being destroyed to the cell membrane leading to cell death, related to iron ion accumulation and lipid that’s your fats peroxidation. And they’re the important markers of oxidative damage. It’s an iron-dependent, nonapoptotic form of cell death that is distinct from apoptosis, pyroptosis, and necrosis.

Now, here is what here are the cliff notes on what happens. And then I’ll show you some of the things associated with it, we’ll take a deep dive. Look who’s here. The Knox enzyme, maybe my drawing tool here, again, is the NOx enzyme. And what it does, is it takes oxygen. We spoke about this earlier NADPH two, called the NADPH DL makes superoxide then an enzyme called superoxide dismutase makes hydrogen peroxide. Then iron combines in what’s called the Fenton reaction, we’ll get into that a little bit more, making what are called hydroxyl radicals. Now remember, I said that a LOX is one particular e lox 12.

That brings your fats down, and it’ll combine with his hydroxyl radical to make what’s called a phospholipid hydroperoxide, which damages the membranes. And I was introduced to this by Dr. Harold Landis, one of the folks who use our software and also on the Webinars, a brilliant gentleman dedicated to the wellness of humanity. And he introduced me to ferroptosis.

And he kept saying to me, Bob, you got to look at this. And I kept saying, Well, yeah, I’m looking at a lot of stuff. And I finally said, How about if you do a webinar on this, and he did, and I’m like, Oh, my goodness, it has just changed the whole game. Because I believe a lot of these chronically ill folks who are exposed to mold or Lyme disease long term, have ferroptosis going on. So here’s the damage, then we need something called glutathione peroxidase for CO q 10. And BH for calming this down.

And also vitamin D, which is now on this chart. So as you can see, this is a 3d chess game, maybe even a little bit more complicated than that, because there are just so many factors that can cause this to occur. Now, let’s take a look at just some of the things associated and I believe we’re just hitting the tip of the iceberg. Many of your nervous systems Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s, heart failures, osteoporosis, pancreatic issues, kidney issues, gastrointestinal issues or inflammatory bowel diseases, liver issues, lung issues, and eye issues like macular are all related to ferroptosis.

And I think we’re just scratching the surface. This was only first discovered in 2012. So we’re talking about just 11 years ago when this was discovered. So from a historical standpoint, relatively new, in the medical world, so that’s why many people are not talking about it. So now let’s look at this map here. And look at what creates ferroptosis. Now we have it in a different location on the map, but you’re gonna see the players are the same Tnfa that we just spoke about by the toxins virus lab upon lipid polysaccharides. And you’re absolutely right, I need to have more in here than just HFCs or real plasm Ferro important.

Many other things need to go on here, but anything that will stimulate TNF-a stimulates NF kappa B. The bilirubin and Billy Verdun are here just as heme oxygenase but it’s actually those things. As we said, calm this down, calm down to anacrusis factor calm down knocks but the NF kappa B stimulates the knocks. Now there are other things that will stimulate knocks. There’s an enzyme called Colm T. That helps clear dopamine and Colm T will stimulate or the dopamine will stimulate the NOx. We spoke earlier about EMF there’s EMF that affects NOx no matter what.

But there are some people who have mutations in the calcium voltage channel that allows it to even more so stimulate NOx. One of the things that I’m seeing more and more of is there’s an enzyme called su ox that turns sulfites into sulfate. And sulfates are needed in a detox process called sulfation. These sulfites can often stimulate the NOx enzyme. So we got a lot of things here that make the docks overactive. So then we make superoxide.

There’s an enzyme called N q o one that holds this back. Many people have weaknesses on their end Q one. Then here we get hydrogen peroxide. And yes, the same thing you buy in the store is that they put on a cut and hydrogen peroxide. Again, not all bad, it kills pathogens. However, if it’s overactive, we have a problem. Because it’ll combine with iron. Now what we did here is doc rows and you’ll see here we listed all the things TRF to ferritin, light chain, HIV transfer, and factor and we’re finding SLC 48.

One to be significant we found for snips that actually cause very important to be overactive, which causes the body to absorb more iron and distributed it more widely. clinical observation only when people have homozygous on those ones that are overactive, we oftentimes see more, more inflammation inside the body.

Here’s a term probably a lot of people have not heard Thrive Doxon is just as powerful as good a bio that clears hydrogen peroxide and takes care of inflammation inside the cells. clinical observation only week does on this enzyme. Many times people are very inflamed and as we’ve been supporting it seeing a nice improvement in the inflammation. Catalase is needed to clear hydrogen peroxide you can have genetic mutations on catalase glutathione peroxidase, one uses glutathione to clear hydrogen peroxide.

So you can have a lot that can go wrong here. You can be overproducing the hydrogen peroxide. You can have weakness on catalase, thrive toxin, or glutathione peroxidase that you don’t clear it, then you can over absorb the iron hydroxyl radicals. Now before I get down to the ferroptosis Let’s look at glutathione because glutathione peroxidase four is what neutralizes ferroptosis we spoke about Nerf two and kept one earlier. They’re involved with all the genes that make glutathione. So if you have a weakness here, you may not make enough glutathione so here is that a lux 12? Remember we talked about arachidonic acid? So if you’re not dealing with your fats properly, okay? And you’ve got TNF-a an upregulated.

Here comes your arachidonic acid and Dr. Rosen was we’re doing these Omega quants. We’re seeing folks that are actually off the chart on their arachidonic acid. The chart goes to 32 and we’re seeing people in their 40s and 50s. Also cortisol, here’s your adrenals Okay, so the cortisol from the adrenal so you can see the adrenal gland with acid to Koay. And progesterone makes the cortisol calms down this PLA too. So if your adrenals are weak or tuckered out, you’re not going to allow the body to stop pulling out that arachidonic acid that creates this ferroptosis. So you can see the adrenals are highly involved with all of this and their fatigue will add to the problem. So here you make this ferroptosis.

And we just spoke about all the problems that that can create. Now what we want to do is we want to look at how the body can calm that down. BH for now since I’ve heard that before, remember, I talked about that with nitric oxide, pH four is needed to make nitric oxide. And as I said earlier, if we run out of BH for running off pH two, we make superoxide. And people are thinking, Well, does that feedback up here? You betcha it does.

Another feedback. If NASA is overactive from histamine, it’ll stimulate it, and you can have genetic mutations, then that nos to again will create the grantees, but we’re chewing up our BH for there’s also genetic issues that can cause the body to not make enough BH for you can have genetic issues, particularly MTHFR, 1298. So if Nostru is upregulated, you don’t make enough BH four, and you’re making a lot of ferroptosis. You don’t have the ability to hold this back. If you’ve got a weakness in your nerve keep one or make a glutathione peroxidase. You don’t have the ability to hold it back.

Now, I don’t have this on a chart, but BH four is also the cofactor. For tryptophan to go into serotonin. Why are we seeing a huge increase in depression? One of my four famous words is it’s not your fault. Because if you don’t have enough pH four, you’re not going to make serotonin.

It’s like having a brand-new car with no gas. I can’t tell you how many people are just relieved that. Oh, you mean I’m depressed? Because I don’t have enough pH for Yeah. What are you seeing with depression? Dr. Ruden?

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, all mood disorders, right? I think that because with the BH for and the neurotransmitters and dopamine and adrenaline, you see just the overwhelm the angst, the anxiety, the depression, all of the mood disorders are sort of synonymous with that chronic exhaustion, that presents pretty much all the time.

Dr. Bob Miller: Sure. Now, finally, we’re going to talk about CO Q 10. So co q 10. One people are familiar with this. And CO q 10. is formed in two forms. There’s ubiquinone and Ubiquinol. So what has to happen here, let me get my drawing tool one more time. Here’s your ubiquinone. And then we need this enzyme to turn it into Ubiquinol. And that’s the form that comes down this issue.

But it needs. You’ve heard this before NADPH. And what knocks down the NADPH, the NOx enzyme, also any genetic mutations in here, or on NQF, one will further impede the ubiquinone Ubiquinol conversion. And you can have mutations down here as well, that will impact your body’s ability to make Tokyu Tim, personally, I’ve got one huge mutation on this one.

So I take three to 400 milligrams a day of Ubiquinol. If you look at your co Q 10 supplements, if they don’t say they’re Ubiquinol, they’re probably a big unknown. But if you look at the fine print on the back, it’ll tell you ubiquinone or Ubiquinol. So if you’ve got any trouble here, we’re here or here, or possibly even too much of this, you may need the Ubiquinol version of CO q 10. So as you can see, there are just so many ways here that this ferroptosis can go running wild. And I should also point out that ferroptosis is not all bad. If somebody has a tumor, the body will actually use ferroptosis to kill the tumor.

So again, I think that in the intelligence of the body, this was put there for a purpose to actually kill bad guys. So it’s not all bad. If we didn’t have ferroptosis. If something bad would happen in the body, we actually need this to kill it. So if somebody is inactive in cancer, you don’t want to take the steps to calm this down. But unless you’re there, this can do a lot of damage inside the body. So it’s interesting how something can be harmful, or actually can be can be life-saving, and from what I understand.

There are actually some therapies where they’re trying to use magnets and things to pull ferroptosis to tumors. And actually, Tim rarely increases ferroptosis to ferroptosis, to kill, to kill the tumor. So that is, probably, a two-day lecture in 45 minutes. I just like to mention if anyone’s up a practitioner, health professional, you may want to, you know, consider using our software I know Dr. Rosen uses it, we have our own genetic test, we have a supplement line, the software that analyzes it, we do the research. This is for practitioners only. We have an online certification course where somebody can, can actually take the course and, you know, learn all of this, again, for practitioners. And there’s the website, functional genomic analysis.com.

Again, practitioners only, please, if somebody does want to contact us, here’s our website, and, and phone number. And here’s our support staff for practitioners on the software. So that is a really quick, quick overview of how those two processes, the creation of grantees, and the creation of ferroptosis can really stress the adrenal glands and the entire body.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Thank you so much for sharing, isn’t it amazing to see your last 10 years in about 45 minutes? And you know, it’s all summed up right in there, couple of things I will say is that just as a small plug towards you guys, the staff and the feedback, and the way that you get back to everyone is amazing. And from a practitioner standpoint of view, which I’m looking into more and more now, when you look at the different pathways, and you have uploaded the particular nutrients that are evidence base that support those enzymes.

And you have that built into the software such that when you click on the formulation, it gives smart suggestions as well, you may not need this because they don’t have that particular snip there. This one is suggested. But because there are so many, we suggest that you boost that level up. And that way you can customize the Bob Miller co Q 10 products specifically for your jeans. And it makes it that much more user-friendly.

And it’s a win-win for everyone. Yeah, so so a couple of questions I have, which is amazing that you shared all that is I have started around the word you used as a game changer. And just so you know, I hope you don’t charge me for the patenting of your phrase, but I say to everyone that I work with before I start with them, there is no bad news, right? Because when we look at your genes, like you said, You’re born with them, you’ll die with them, and you can’t change them.

But the great news is, is that we can identify where the challenges are so that we can support that function and be able to impact your overall health. So with that being said, when you look at all those pathways, and you mentioned, it’s a game changer now, in which ways has it been more of a game changer for you now with those two pathways that we talked about? Such that there are so many different places to start? How do you know, what’s the art of you having a clinical observation, you have Bob Miller’s sneaking suspicions?

Do you want to have, quote-unquote, the most bang for your buck? So I guess the question really is, how’s it been a game changer for you? And how has it changed up some of your approaches depending on how aggressive or how much the patient wants to approach the remedy side of the solution?

Dr. Bob Miller:  Sure. Well, you know, I’ve been doing this for a long time. You know, in the early days before we had the genetics, if someone was inflamed, you know, we’d say, well, let’s do some turmeric and Boswellia. And, you know, we probably helped some people, we supported the adrenals a little bit. Then as we moved along, we learned about glutathione. And we could see that, you know, maybe glutathione isn’t recycling and then it’s like, okay, we’ve got to recycle your glutathione first.

But now with these recent revelations, we can actually see that it may be gained a function on TNF-a more weakness in HEMA or weakness insert one. So one of the things I like I say, as we’ve got to get away from Oh, this is my protocol because everyone is unique. So when somebody says this is what I do for mycotoxins, it’s probably helpful, but it’s different for everybody. So for one person that’s exposed to mycotoxins, you may need to support the pathway. For other people, you may need to calm down the tumor necrosis factor for other folks, if it’s the NOS, you may just need to start first by calming down nos to or calming down the knocks enzyme. Or if arachidonic acid is being ripped out of the cell membrane.

You may just start there. So you could see you know, 20 people say, for example, all being exposed to mycotoxins and inflamed and you know, 20 different protocols. So to me, that’s the game changer that you going in and finding the most relevant place. And then, you know, one of the challenges is many of these people who are inflamed. You know, they’ll tell you, I can’t take anything. And they’ll take one nutrient and they’ll open the capsule and take little grains of it and still sometimes have a reaction because they’re, they’re so inflamed. So, you know, some people, you can put the proverbial pedal to the metal and hit lots of things. Others it’s like, well, let’s step back here and open this capsule and take grains and see how you do.

And everyone is, everyone is unique. So again, I guess the game-changing part is, we don’t have protocols, we look at where the weakness is. Maybe try to hit the weak spot, weakest spot first. And then as time goes on, you know, every five, six weeks, Okay, where can we go next? What can we do? Because I think one of the things it’s now becoming apparent in the functional medicine with naturopathic medicine than natural health medicine, is that sometimes practitioners get a little too enthused.

They, they see that, oh, you’ve got, you’ve got mold you got, you got clostridia, you’ve got heavy metals, you got some virus, we got to kill or clean or something. And many times that backfires. And then the person gets worse and just throws their hands up and says, I can’t do this. So one of my other favorite expressions is when the house is on fire, we don’t paint the walls and mow the lawn. So many times we have to take baby baby baby steps. Calm down that inflammation, just don’t be in a hurry.

Don’t try to be the hero, right out of the gate, because we’re hearing more of that, that people are like, oh, yeah, I did a test and you’ve got Clostridium, and I’m gonna give you this drug, and stuff to kill it. And the person’s like, I can’t do this, it just made me worse. And then that, that gives functional naturopathic, you know, other kinds of care, a bad name, because they just made them worse.

So another little cliche that I’ve enjoyed is, I’d rather be a little late than too soon, or the fastest way to get there is to go slow. And so I think as we are being exposed to more and more environmental toxins, it’s just unprecedented. And I’ll be honest there, there’s times I worry about, what’s this going to do to humanity. Are we going to? Are we really going to survive this?

Or are we just going to be in a downward spiral here? I’m not saying that’s happening, I that crosses my mind every once in a while that, you know, we’ve done some unintentionally bad things. When people gave animals growth hormones, they probably meant well of, oh, we’re gonna get 10 per 12 to 15% more production, never thinking that that’s going to jack up, the mTOR.

When we came out with plastics, oh, we don’t have to worry about washing the bottles and all those things. But now the waterway is polluted with all these plastics, or the agricultural chemicals, oh, we can have more food production, we can feed the world. But oh, you know, unintended consequences. And I think and cell phones, I mean, we all my goodness, love our cell phones. So you know, I grew up in a world you had to find a phone booth if you wanted to call somebody. So we love it. But we don’t know what the long-term consequences are of continual exposure to electromagnetic fields. So we’re living in some very challenging times.

And you’re seeing everyone getting so angry, so polarized. I’ve never seen a time when people are so angry. One of my favorite stories is when I grew up, I grew up in a little town called Terry Hill, Pennsylvania. And it’ll make your school if somebody would have said, Oh, you need to lock the doors and get guards we would have said, What are you crazy? It never crossed anybody’s mind. And it never happened. It just didn’t happen. So something’s going on with our brains, you know, with autism going up. And everyone’s coming unglued. And I’m sure you’re finding that as well that people are less tolerant and get angry quickly. They’re frustrated. It’s a very challenging time to be alive right now.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for your words of wisdom. I think it’s you can see how far we’ve come from just MTHFR I don’t think you mentioned it well, maybe just in making by Opteron. But we’ve come so far from that. And I think it’s really putting your thinking cap on in terms of what when people say, well, genetics, what is genetics have to do with it? You’re seeing sort of the blueprint of how the environmental factors impact your body’s cellular ability to make energy effectively.

And if there are these roadblocks and 3d chess game played underwater inhibitors, promoters, everything in between, it’s really going to make an impact. So I guess you really have to use your doctor’s hat and terms of okay, if we need to go very slow, what is going to have that Pareto principle of the least involvement for the most gain? And slowly building from there? A couple of things that I’ve also maybe if we can just share and if it would be okay, is some of the successes that you might have had with when you do see that, that platelet activation and the Pharaohptosis.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Ferroptosis? Sorry, yeah, that you’ve been using sort of a combination. And again, this is just for informational purposes. You’ve been using a combination of the CO Q 10 at small amounts with royal jelly and potentially hydrogen. I guess it’s hydrogen water. Have you been noticing some really slow but great effects through that, Bob? Are there other combinations of things that you’re doing?

Dr. Bob Miller: Yeah. And sometimes they’re slow. And sometimes they’re dramatic. I just had a client that was so excited to tell me Oh, my God, Bobby, this CO q 10, I’m awake, I have energy. And not everybody experiences that, you know, you just mentioned MTHFR. And I really would be remiss if I didn’t address that a little bit. You know, 15 or so years ago, we learned about MTHFR. And most people know that when you’ve got that genetic mutation, you may not put a methyl group on your, on your full lead very well. And that can impact a process called methylation.

Really important. I’ve you know, I teach about methylation, I actually formulated a product for methylation. But I think we’re getting a little too enthused about that, for two reasons. One, you know, pregnant women need Foley. And the reason they need folate is because there’s a process called mTOR, that causes the cells to grow. If we didn’t have that we either wouldn’t get pregnant could have a miscarriage, or, or a miss, or a deformed baby.

So mTOR is very important in pregnancy. But mTOR is also what allows the body to replicate things. It’s like a copy machine. And it doesn’t care what you put on the copy machine, healthy cell cancer cell, or even some viruses that we’ve recently been dealing with. So we got to be careful that we don’t overdo that plus, in addition, there’s an enzyme called histone and methyl transferase, that takes histamine and turns it into something called N methyl histamine.

And that has to be cleared further down the road. Methyl folate, methyl v 12. And Sammy will stimulate them. So some people, you know, they’ve learned they have MTHFR. And I’ve seen this happen. I mean, I just recently had a young lady who was taking 15 milligrams of methyl Foley daily and was incredibly inflamed and sick. And it’s like, yeah, no wonder.

So if you’re not pregnant, or you’re not specifically working on homocysteine, or something else, we’ve got to be careful with methyl folate and, and too many people just you know, they get a home test and they learn they have MTHFR, they look it up, they start taking a lot of methyl folate, and they don’t realize that some of their anxiety and inflammation could because they’re getting too much of it. When I taught classes on methylation, my opening slide was a mother duck with ducklings behind her with the title, make sure you have your ducks in a row before you start supporting methylation.

So if you’ve got a histamine problem, or a dopamine problem, too much methyl folate could actually be a problem. Now, again, if you’ve got high Homocysteine if you’re pregnant, I mean, there are times we need it, but I believe we’ve gotten a little carried away with methyl folate. So I put that out there that when you look at the pyramid that I created, the last step is supporting methylation.

And I believe we’ve gotten just a wee bit carried away on that all-well intention, nobody meant anything harmful because everything you heard about methylation is true. But again, back to unintended consequences. Right? And jack up the mTOR can jack up the histamine and be more trouble than it’s helpful.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Right and stimulate Knox enzyme as well. Right? We already have enough thing stimulating knocks we don’t need it stimulated anymore. Yes. So just as the other thing I was gonna mention is to have you fine with these game changers because the pyramid was really designed for at the top is methylation at the bottom are inflammatory stimulators that and you’re looking at it as getting your ducks in a row is another way of saying well, let’s reduce the overhead Let’s reduce the that’s the house is on fire.

Let’s put out the fires before we start mowing the grass and painting the walls. Have you found that that pyramid is changing now because of all of the rent sees rent Auntie’s pathways and ferroptosis paths weigh in a sense that certain variables now need to be looked at in a 3d motion versus a pyramid kind of way or

Dr. Bob Miller: I Think the pyramid still applies, because you know, the bottom left-hand corner is iron dysregulation. And that’s what, that’s what ferroptosis is, right? The Knox enzyme is, on the bottom row. Right? So and it still interplays with your ability, to make your antioxidants, your glutathione, your catalase. What I’ve been finding is that now that we’ve, you know, increased, the function of the maps that we actually have in there, I mean, I was just showing you static pictures here.

But in our software, we actually have interactive maps where you can click on the enzyme, and I didn’t use that today, because it might be harder to see that you can actually click on the enzyme and see where it is. But the principle hasn’t much changed since knocking down inflammation first, but we just nuanced it, possibly a bit more.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Now, it’s become a lot more sophisticated. You’ve always said, Hey, listen, this is a general idea of where to start. But if you see some more specific, perfect storm challenges in the middle of the of map, be the clinician and do the appropriate approach.

Dr. Bob Miller: So you did a good point that you made a good point, you really do have to be the clinician, you can’t have software until you have every move to make, the doctor still has to be the or the naturopath, whoever it still has to do their job and think it through no matter what tool you have, it’s not going to answer every question for you.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. And so and then also, because I know you do lots of case studies, and a lot of these people are really, really having a hard time. And like we say when you do a consultation, there is no bad news. When you do put these puzzle pieces together and go slowly, Bob, maybe you could tell us a little bit about some of the successes that you’re seeing for patients that have been to every doctor and haven’t had any improvements and how the body infinitely and its intelligence has the ability to heal. Maybe give us some hope to the listeners that they think oh, my goodness, this is just too daunting.

Dr. Bob Miller: Yep. Well, firstly, I tell everybody, there’s, there’s no magic cure. You know, there’s no, take this one pill, and in two days, you’ll be better that doesn’t exist. So it’s, it’s a journey, and it’s not for the faint of heart. And it may mean you know, you know, for some people, we see genetic issues where they may not deal with gluten, and they need to stop gluten.

And for some people, that’s a no-brainer, hey, if that’s gonna help me feel better, that’s good. For other people, you think it was the most traumatic thing you’ve ever told them. And they can’t handle that they can’t eat, they’re gluten. For some people, it’s less histamine. For some people, it’s turn off the Wi-Fi at night. For other people, it’s, you know, some dietary changes with dairy. And it’s, you know, we’ve generally seen when people stick with it for a period of time, have realistic expectations, you know, not miracles, and not the, you know, somebody says, Hey, I started on the supplements three days ago, and I don’t feel any better. It’s like, Yeah, no kidding.

It’s a journey.

And, some people are willing to take that journey, and some people aren’t. And you know, I, I’ve learned a long time ago not to argue with people if they don’t want to go on a journey. But the bottom line is for people who will stick with it, that I mean, the bottom line is less inflammation, more energy, better sleeping, less anxiety, and less depressive thoughts. And again, we’re not treating any disease because the body is coming into balance. On its own, we don’t, somebody says, What do you treat with this, we don’t treat anything in the body comes back into balance.

When you create that terrain that’s friendly. This goes back to the old, old old naturopathic philosophy of, you know, it’s the terrain, Antoine Muschamp said that it’s the terrain of the body that allows things to arrive. We’ve kind of got in the thought that we’re going to have a magic pill that’s going to suppress the symptom. That did work for a little while. But I think things are now getting more complex because of all the environmental factors that those days of a magic bullet are, are going away very quickly. So that’s generally what we see less inflammation, more energy, more mental clarity. But it’s not easy. It’s not quick, not for the faint of heart.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. But when they’re finally getting some answers, you know, especially when they haven’t when they’ve been told that there’s quote unquote, nothing wrong, or there’s nothing more I can do. Have you found that the Omega Quant has been a game-changer as well?

Dr. Bob Miller: for you. Oh, yeah. I am stunned how many people will do the Omega Quan and they’re off the charts. I mean, that they have a charting of where it goes and it’s, you know, like the top I think is 32. And there are people that are 45 to 70. And those are the people that that arachidonic acid is being yanked out and they had no idea that was going on.

And you know, from a disease standpoint, that’s not a disease. You know, arachidonic acid being pulled out of the cell membrane doesn’t have a disease name. Now, we’re so used to that concept of, I need a disease name. I don’t, you know, maybe someday somebody will name it. But to my knowledge, there isn’t one. ferroptosis really isn’t a disease. To my knowledge.

It’s a process that occurs. You know, Randy’s isn’t a disease, it’s a, it’s a molecule going arrive. So I think what’s happened is, you know, 75 years ago, you know, most of the things we had were bacterial infections and an antibiotic fix you up, and there you go, or somebody’s part went bad, we cut it out. But we’re going into uncharted territory, again, not because our genetics have changed. But because our environment has changed. I’m absolutely going to tell my clients, as I said, I’m absolutely convinced I look at the genetic patterns of autistic kids.

And I look at myself, and it’s like, oh if I was a 10-year-old boy, I’d probably be a headbang and autistic mess. But he eats there, I think drawing circles is fun. But, and that’s why I think we’re seeing such a dramatic increase in these things. Because, you know, when I was in my mother’s womb, there were no electromagnetic fields. drank out of a glass. I remember as a kid to my parents going to a farmer’s market to buy food directly from the farmers. I’d slop around in the creeks and climb the trees. Now the kids are on their computers and are pushing buttons. And they’re sitting in a school where the food is all processed. And they’ve got everybody’s got cell phones, and they’ve got iPads, they’ve got Wi-Fi in the ceilings.

And you know what, when I talk to teachers, and I say, How long have you been teaching at least five years? And they’ll say, Yeah, five years, and what’s happened to the kids in the last five years, and every one of them says, Oh, my goodness, they can’t focus, they’re agitated.

They’re, they’re struggling. And so these kids that were born into this, when in their mother’s womb, they were getting high fructose corn syrup, glyphosate, and electromagnetic fields and plastics. I believe it’s having a detrimental effect on us. Yeah. And again, if you’ve got a genetic weakness that wouldn’t have mattered 75 to 100 years ago, get exposed to this. These are the potential, you know, the proverbial canary in the mines that are being impacted.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. Well, have you found just as my theory as well is, that these gene snips that got passed down that were evolutionary, evolutionary favorable? Because of the environmental inhibitors or the environmental overlap errs are now evolutionary not favorable, is that seem to be?

Dr. Bob Miller: Yeah, there are two theories on how these genetic mutations occurred. One is that during the 1200s when everyone was promiscuous, and I shouldn’t everyone when a lot of people were and STDs were rapid, some of these mutations occur that just weren’t beneficial. But there are beneficial genes, like for example, if you talk to people from England or Ireland, many, many times they over absorb iron. Well, for the Irish, the reason many of them emigrated, was because they had potato famines. So during potato famines, if you over-absorbed iron, that was actually to your advantage, and you were more likely to have a healthy pregnancy.

So that became a beneficial genetic mutation. So natural selection in Northern Africa, and in other parts of the world. There’s an enzyme called G six PD that makes your NADPH I don’t know the mechanism. But supposedly this G six PD mutation protected you from malaria or didn’t allow you to get sick from it. So by natural selection that occurred, when that time, we didn’t have as much inflammation, so a little bit less NADPH didn’t make any difference.

Now, today, since NADPH, is being used by NOx and as needed to recycle glutathione make your nitric oxide, that GCPD deficiency is to your disadvantage. Now, clinical observation, only Bob Miller talking to people, when one parent has the iron over absorption and the other parent has the GCSB deficiency. Those children are oftentimes really struggling, or if you were the result of that. So again, you know, when you look at the history of the world, there wasn’t there was never a time that we were as mobile. I mean, you grew up in a country and that’s why they develop their own languages.

And we don’t know how many 1000s of years they were there. And they adapted to their environment. And now we have you know, travel and everyone’s going in different directions. So the people that have that GCPD mutation, when they’re exposed to things that may use up more of it or are more needed for it, they’re in more trouble.

When when you are when you know that over absorption of iron, and you might be thinking You’re doing a good thing by taking a multivitamin with iron, or eating a lot of meat or something like that it’s actually to your disadvantage. So it’s a complex subject, but that’s why some genetic mutations are just not helpful at all. And we think those occurred during the 1200s when STDs and actually all that when people were riddled with essentially transmitted diseases just damage some of the genes. Right?

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. Amazing to see. Bob, thank you so much for your time. I hopefully can keep it open for part four when we have new information in here. So we’ll be glad to be here. Yeah. And I appreciate everything that you do and and the time and energy you put into helping the world and helping your community and your patient base. Thank you so much for everything you do.

Dr. Bob Miller: It’s been a pleasure and thank you for the opportunity. Thank you.

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