Zero Click Marketing

What makes a book worth reading, remembering, and recommending?

Ben Putano, founder and CEO of Damn Gravity (and Rand’s and my publisher!), explains why books might be one of the most powerful marketing tools in a zero-click world.

We get into why great books need one memorable idea, how to engineer word of mouth, why romance authors might be better at positioning than business authors, and how to market a book by starting with your biggest fans instead of chasing the broadest possible audience.

Timestamps:

00:00 – Why books are powerful in a zero-click world

02:19 – What books can accomplish that other marketing assets can't

09:20 – Books that changed the way we think

17:00 – What business authors can learn from romance novels

19:29 – The dinner party test for communicating big ideas

23:06 – How to market a book before it's published

27:23 – Bestseller lists vs. actual influence

Connect with Ben Putano: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ben-putano/

Check out Damn Gravity Media: https://www.damngravity.com/ 

Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius
www.shareyourgenius.com 

I tossed out the idea that “today GEO is CRO,” and it gave Ross Hudgens actual goosebumps, because he’d just written about the same thing. Ross argues that if you can convince a user to buy, you can convince an LLM to recommend you. 

Ross is the founder of Siege Media and author of Generative Engine Optimization, and we talked about what actually drives AI visibility. We discuss his research on more than 100 B2B websites, why comparison pages are associated with more AI referral traffic, and the limitations of AI attribution.

Timestamps:

00:00 — Is GEO just SEO with a new name?

07:20 — Research: Why comparison pages are winning in AI search

09:23 — Is GEO the new CRO?

16:03 — Measuring AI influence when nobody clicks

22:37 — How smaller brands can compete in AI search

Connect with Ross Hudgens: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rosshudgens/ 

Check out Siege Media: https://www.siegemedia.com 

Get Generative Engine Optimization: The Definitive Guide to AI SEO: https://www.siegemedia.com/geo-book 

Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius
www.shareyourgenius.com 

Rand Fishkin (my co-author!)  is back on the show for a special episode about our new book, Zero Click Marketing.

We talk about what surprised us while recording the audiobook, and some of the Zero Click Marketing ideas that marketers have pushed back on the most.

We get especially fired up about attribution and post-purchase surveys and taking stronger positions in your content. Plus, learn how an expert like Rand is learning an entirely new kind of marketing as he builds his gaming company, Snack Bar Studios.

In this episode:

00:00 — Why useful advice requires taking a position

03:55 — AI, gatekeeping, and the freedom to build things yourself

08:26 — Why Rand is deliberately making his content weirder and more human

12:00 — What marketers understand — and resist — about Zero-Click Marketing

14:24 — The problem with “How did you hear about us?”

18:50 — A surprise cameo

20:12 — Why free-text attribution surveys don't solve the problem

25:28 — The question to ask customers instead

30:09 — The opportunity cost of asking a bad question

31:23 — How Rand learned to market an indie video game from scratch

38:37 — Please buy our book. Or don't. We're very good at this.

Buy our book, “Zero Click Marketing: How to Build Brands and Earn Customers on a Traffic-Starved Web,” at zeroclickmarketing.co/book or on Amazon!

Connect with Rand Fishkin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/randfishkin/?isSelfProfile=false 

Check out SparkToro: https://sparktoro.com/ 

Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius
www.shareyourgenius.com 

Marketing keeps changing. But good marketing? Not so much.

Sarah Stockdale, founder and CEO of Growclass, joins me to talk about what still matters as algorithms, AI, attribution, and the platforms change. We talk about what still wins, and one crucial skill you still need today.

In this episode:

00:00 Why good marketing was never supposed to be easy

03:30 The fundamentals that still matter

07:15 Why changing user behavior is so hard

15:39 What “direct traffic” is hiding

16:15 When your marketing data is too good to be true

18:51 What still matters in the age of AI

20:09 Skepticism for…

22:47 How Growclass investigates direct traffic and dark social

Connect with Sarah Stockdale: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahstockdale/ 

Check out Growclass: http://growclass.co 

Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius
www.shareyourgenius.com 

Josh Ho, founder and CEO of ReferralRock, and I chit chat about marketing challenges and opportunities as of late. My fave part of this episode is when Josh explains how ReferralRock turns its existing customer conversations into an always-on source of audience research — using real customer language and anecdotes to shape strategy. (This happens about 15 minutes in!)

We also get into why marketers need both audience data and anecdotes, what AI changes about qualitative research, and how the smallest, weirdest details can sometimes become the most memorable parts of a brand.

Timestamps

00:00 — How Josh learned marketing through SEO and inbound

05:23 — How ReferralRock gets customers today

07:55 — When attribution is broken, what do you measure instead?

13:34 — AI search, prompts, and understanding buyer intent

15:10 — Turning customer calls into an audience research engine

20:47 — Creating content from what customers actually ask about

27:47 — Why marketers need “audiences + anecdotes”

30:02 — Blue spoons, memorable details, and creating word of mouth

35:29 — What does a “blue spoon” look like in B2B SaaS?

Connect with Josh Ho: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshuajho/

Check out Referral Rock: https://referralrock.com 

Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius
www.shareyourgenius.com 

Wil Reynolds joins me to chop it up over what AI is changing — and what it’s revealing — about marketing, expertise, and trust. We talk about using AI without losing your voice, why accountability may matter more than “taste,” and how AI search is making it harder for brands to simply optimize their way into credibility. Wil also explains why he’d rather measure human trust than algorithmic visibility, how an intern exposed gaps in his own 25+ years of SEO experience, and why this moment in AI has rekindled the way he wants to build Seer Interactive.

Chapters

00:00 — Human trust vs. algorithmic proxies

03:14 — Spotting AI slop on LinkedIn

06:23 — The upside of competition in AI

08:15 — AI, creativity, and owning your work

25:49 — Taste vs. accountability in an AI world

27:58 — AI search is forcing brands to bring receipts

34:21 — Why SEO and AI visibility aren’t the same

38:42 — Measuring human trust instead of algorithmic traffic

46:29 — Hiring for a world that’s changing again

Connect with Wil Reynolds: https://www.linkedin.com/in/wilreynolds/ 

Check out Seer Interactive: https://www.seerinteractive.com/ 

Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius
www.shareyourgenius.com

Wistia CEO Chris Savage joins me to talk about how marketing has evolved in recent years, especially now as attribution keeps getting harder. We also dig into building sustainable content programs, finding opportunities in saturated channels, making the case for creative risks, and why some of the ideas that are hardest to green-light are actually the most valuable.

Timestamps

00:00 — Why the hardest ideas end up being the most valuable

01:31 — Wistia’s sustainable approach building its podcast

06:38 — Let the audience choose the format

10:19 — Marketing in a zero-click world

14:02 — Massive opportunities in untrackable marketing

16:36 — How to pitch bold ideas to leadership

20:42 — Where Chris would invest if he were starting from scratch

28:19 — Brand search as a leading marketing indicator

31:05 — How marketers can manage up more effectively

Connect with Chris Savage: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cjsavage/ 

Check out Talking Too Loud: https://wistia.com/series/talking-too-loud 

Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius
www.shareyourgenius.com 

As AI makes it easier to produce more content, podcasting offers something increasingly valuable: unmistakable evidence of a real person behind those ideas. Erica Bonser, co-founder of Fan Club, joins me to talk about what success should actually look like for a new show, and how marketers can turn a podcast into a sustainable engine — without expecting immediate business results.

Chapters

00:00 — Why podcasting feels distinctly human in the AI era

00:41 — What fitness brands teach us about identity and marketing

09:53 — Starting a podcast makes you a better communicator

11:34 — What should a podcast actually accomplish?

15:45 — Defining success and overcoming the “podcast graveyard”

19:10 — Why Erica isn’t worried about business outcomes yet

22:12 — The reality of sustaining a podcast

23:47 — Erica’s podcasting cheat sheet for 2026

Connect with Erica Bonser: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erica-bonser/ 

Check out Fan Club Brands: https://fanclubbrands.co/ 

Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius
www.shareyourgenius.com

It’s never been easier to create content — which means simply making content isn’t much of an advantage anymore. Today, I talk about what AI changes about the creator economy, why credibility is becoming more valuable as content gets cheaper, and how marketers should evaluate creator partnerships beyond clicks and impressions. 

Chapters

00:00 — It has never been easier to create mediocre content

00:45 — How the creator economy has grown up

02:14 — As content gets cheaper, credibility gets more valuable

03:15 — Why creator marketing *is* Zero Click Marketing

04:08 — The prerequisite: authority with the right audience

05:01 — #1: Message transfer

06:24 — #2: Audience saturation

08:02 — #3: Asset value

10:01 — What the creator economy rewards now

Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius
www.shareyourgenius.com 

What happens when your marketing is clearly doing something — but attribution can’t tell you exactly what? In this conversation with Wistia’s Talking Too Loud, we dig into zero click marketing, branded search, word of mouth, recall, and the growing gap between what marketers can measure and what actually influences people. It’s a conversation about learning to work with evidence instead of expecting perfect proof — and it feels even more relevant now than when we recorded it.

This episode was originally published on Talking Too Loud, Wistia's podcast about the brands, products, and marketing moves people can’t stop thinking — and talking — about.

Watch the original episode: https://wi.st/TTLNatividad

Explore more Talking Too Loud: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMCL9HnQdLDHx8xxzeorzmQ

Learn more about Wistia: https://wistia.com/

Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co

Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Genius
www.shareyourgenius.com