Selected Scriptures

December 2, 2018

Evening Service

Sean Higgins

Download the Kid’s Korner.

Or, Running Your Mouth Like the Rabshakeh

After the marriage seminar last February we asked for feedback, including if we should have another seminar, and, if yes, what another seminar should be about. There were a number of good ideas, and when the elders were doing our annual review and planning this past summer, we decided to tackle some of the suggested seminar ideas in a couple Sunday evening series.

Apologetics was one of the recommended topics. And, depending on how one understands what apologetics addresses, it very much fits with our ongoing desire to build up the church body and to equip the body to be salt and light in Marysville. If we are going to avoid being a YAC—Yet Another Church, as Jim reminds us every so often, a proper understanding of apologetics is key.

That said there are a couple things I don’t like about apologetics as typically talked about in Christian circles, starting with how narrow apologetics is often understood. Especially for those who are evidence-based defenders of the faith, it can easily become a head-game, a data-collecting competition, with the feel of a homeschool convention (which is not good). It’s like the outward facing problem of truth-tubers. It’s also been my experience that many of those Christians who love the study of apologetics the most have never actually engaged in a debate about anything with an unbeliever. They defend the faith through a surrogate apologist. They buy books, attend conferences, and even attend debates, but they tend to stay in the stands rather than get in the game. This is apologetics as a hobby that makes you feel more righteous (than say having a favorite sports team) but doesn’t necessarily make you more like Christ.

The other thing I really don’t like about apologetics as typically considered is that it is so defensive. I get that we talk about defending the faith from the Greek word apologia, and Jude did explicitly use that phrasing (Jude 3). But Jude talked about defending the faith in the church not defending it to unbelievers. And Peter’s well-known admonition to be ready with an answer is also, as we’ll see in a moment, not actually a reactive thing. Christians should be throwing the first (figurative) punch.

If Jesus is Lord of every thumb’s-width in the universe, if all authority has been given to Him in heaven and on earth, if He has commissioned us to declare the gospel that requires repentance, faith, and the resultant life of obedience as a disciple, then we are not sweeping water uphill with a leaf rake or trying to push rope through a wall.

The inquisitiveness about the name “Downhill Apologetics” has been interesting. I proposed that name to the other elders back in August as a title for this series of messages and, as it worked out, I’m fourth of four to talk about it, so I didn’t do my usual introductory work. But is it so hard to get the picture? In a battle, which position would you rather face? Would you rather fight uphill or downhill? Of course you’d take the high position if you could get it. When you’re uphill you can stumble downhill.

And, Christian, you have the high position. The world wants us to feel like we’re on our heels, like unbelief and rebellion have the advantage. But we know, because we read our Bibles, that unbelief does not and it cannot win. Rebels against God either lose their pride or they lose their souls. The Lord is patient, but He is not a pushover. He has given us His Word, and it is the very power of God. You need very little training for the best apologetics, you just need to turn around and see where you’re standing.

The emphases that Dave, Jim, and Jonathan gave have been fantastic. Listen or re-listen to their talks about neutrality, man’s foolishness, the existence of evil, the false dichotomy between faith [...]

1 Corinthians 12:21-31

December 2, 2018

Lord’s Day Worship

Sean Higgins

Download the bulletin.

Download the Kid’s Korner.

The sermon starts at 15:50 in the audio file.

Or, Reminders to the Uppity Members

Pride is sly; she has many wily outfits she can wear. Only some of her costumes are outlandish, the ones that say “Look at me! Love me!” But there are other times when pride puts on more delicate self-absorption, “I’ll never look that good, I should just stay home and be bitter that I’m not loved like that.” This is the attitude found in the members of the body in 1 Corinthians 12:15-20. Certain parts say, “You don’t need me, I don’t really belong.” This might not be thinking too highly of oneself, but it is thinking too focused on oneself.

Paul addresses the more obviously proud parts in verses 21-26, then finishes with the body analogy and returns to the subject of spiritual gifts; different members have different gifts. But before we hear the personified pride, remember that pride is clever and deceitful. I cannot think of a time when I heard one of you say that another one of you was useless to the body and didn’t belong. I’m not talking about sin and discipline, I’m talking about giftedness and service. Undoubtedly that kind of talk takes place in some churches, but I haven’t heard anything like it in our body.

But, I have totally heard this: “I don’t want to ask anyone else for help.” You say, “I don’t look down on other gifted members,” but aren’t you looking down on them by refusing to depend on them? You don’t have to brag about your giftedness to communicate self-sufficiency, and self-sufficiency is just as much a denial of body-life as direct put downs.

As Paul continues on his way to correct the Corinthians for their overvaluation of tongues and the showy gifts, Paul reminds the uppity members that they need the other members.

The Uppity Parts of the Body (verses 21-26)

In the previous paragraph Paul put words in the mouths of body members that weren’t mouths. The analogy is old, but he raises it to another level. This time the dialogue is short and the personified parts are different. The verbalized uppity is not pretty.

The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” In the first case, living blindly would be easier than living handlessly. In the second case, living without your head isn’t an option. But if all you were was a head, well, that wouldn’t be much of a life. There are a lot of truth-loving Christians who seem to esteem the “brain in vat” idea as if God wished He could take back the rest of our parts that aren’t having holy thoughts. But what if you wanted to take the log out of your eye? Who would you ask? And yet the eye acts as if it were the whole “I”?

The eye, the hand, the head, the feet, these are all on the outside, and they are all visible doing stuff. But there are other parts, too, that are just as, if not even more, necessary.

On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable. These weaker parts aren’t the hand or the feet from the previous verse. These weaker parts are probably a reference to the internal organs, maybe the heart and the lungs. These parts seem weaker from the perspective that they need more protection; they don’t walk to the coffee shop by themselves. But we can’t do without them. Living with no hands is inconvenient, but living with no heart is impossible. So it would be wrong to patronize the heart’s contribution.

Not only weaker parts, but on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, which our presentable parts do not require. The less honorable could be the hurt[...]

1 Corinthians 12:12-20

November 25, 2018

Lord’s Day Worship

Sean Higgins

Download the bulletin.

Download the Kid’s Korner.

The sermon starts at 13:40 in the audio file.

Or, Reminders to the Discontent Members

Paul wasn’t the first one to use the analogy of a body to describe a diverse and mutually dependent group, but he did use it well, and with some differences.

The analogy is at least as old as the 6th or 5th century BC as one of Aesop’s Fables, “The Belly and the Members”:

Long ago when the members of the human body had very strong wills of their own and did not work together as amicably as they do now, they denounced the belly for leading an idle and luxurious life, while they were wholly occupied in supporting it and ministering to its wants and pleasures. At one point, they agreed to cut off the belly’s supplies for the future. The hands declared that they would not lift a thing, not even a crust of bread; the mouth that it would not accept any more food for the teeth to chew; the legs that they would no longer carry the belly from place to place, and so on with the others. No sooner did they set their plan of starving the belly into subjection than they all began, one by one, to fail and flag so that the whole body started to pine away. Consequently, the members became convinced that the belly, cumbersome and useless at it seemed to be, also had an important function of its own. In fact, they realized that they were just as dependent on it as it was on them and that if they wanted to keep the body in a healthy state, they would have to work together for the common good of all.

The Roman historian Livy (History of Rome 2.32.9-12) recorded a story about Menenius Agrippa, a member of the Roman senate, who used the story in 494 BC to urge the citizens to appreciate and support the senate. The imagery was also used by Cicero, Marcus Aurelius, and Seneca, among others (Thiselton). It’s found in Plato’s Republic in the 5th or 4th century BC. The illustration is against division.

Paul was also against division in the church. “I appeal to you brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you” (1 Corinthians 1:10) A few verses later, “Is Christ divided?” (1 Corinthians 1:13).

He’s already compared the church to a field (3:5-9) and to a building (3:9-15), but the metaphor of a living body is maybe the most glorious and galvanizing.

You are the body of Christ. Paul says as much in verse 27. It is true, it is not your doing, and it is a reality with implications for all of life. This is a theme worth remembering.

The reason Paul used the body illustration, or even more strongly stated, described the body of Christ as incarnated in His people, was due to division in the Corinthian church. They divided themselves according to preferred preacher of the cross, they divided themselves according to those eating meat or not, and they were dividing themselves according to rank of spiritual gift. The gift that some of them esteemed more highly was the gift of tongues, and this is the subject of all of chapter 14. Paul is getting a running start, he’s building a foundation of what all spiritual gifts are for as he prepares to put tongues in its place.

At the beginning of chapter 12 Paul reminded them about the apportions of gifts, ministries, and fruitfulness all given by the Lord through the Spirit. Every believer gets a gift, not all the gifts are the same, but it is the same Spirit who “apportions to each one individually as he wills” (verse 11).

Starting in verse 12 through the end of the chapter Paul likens all these gifted people to a body, and he has a few different things to emphasize. In verses 12-14 we see how we became a body. In verses 15-20 we see encouragement to the discontent members, in verses 21-26 we see encouragement to the uppity members, and in verses 27-31 we see some obvious questions re[...]

1 Corinthians 12:7-11

November 18, 2018

Lord’s Day Worship

Sean Higgins

Download the bulletin.

Download the Kid’s Korner.

The sermon starts at 13:20 in the audio file.

Or, The Manifestation of One and the Same Spirit

There are many things that can be known, and known for sure, in 1 Corinthians 12. There are other things that can be known, probably, and yet some other things that the Corinthians knew that we probably won’t. I know for sure that one of the things that can be known is the point of the paragraph. And I also know that if your holiday dinner plans are looking a little pedestrian, this might stock you with some fun conversation starters about spiritual gifts.

The Corinthians had written a letter to Paul and one of the things they wanted to know about was spiritual gifts. We don’t know exactly what questions they asked, but we do know that his answers had a lot of perspective to provide about the purpose for every gift in the church. Whether they realized it or not, some in the Corinthian church were elevating certain gifts, usually the speaking gifts, and usually the spectacular super-spiritual-seeming speaking gifts, such as the gift of tongues.

Paul’s thoughts about tongues begin at the beginning of chapter 12. He doesn’t start specifically with tongues, but he makes a Trinitarian basis for all the gifts and shows that all the gifts are for the life and health of the whole body, not as a spiritual-status determiner for an individual part.

Among the “brothers” (verse 1), in “one body” (verse 13), the Spirit distributes gifts, the Lord appoints different ways of serving, and God empowers all that happens in all (verses 4-6). In verses 7-11 we’ll see the purpose of the gifts (verse 7), a sample list of gifts (verses 8-10), and a reminder about the one and the same Spirit who arranges all of us together.

The Purpose of Spiritual Gifts (verse 7)

The ESV makes a paragraph out of verses 4-11, which is fine, though I see a couple patterns that make me think a new paragraph begins in verse 7. One reason is that “empowers” ends verse 6, and “empowered” ends verse 11, connecting the passage but also functioning as dividers. Also, “to each” starts verse 7, with “to one” or “to another” heading the examples in verse 8, then back “to each” at the end in verse 11. The switch from plurals (verses 4-6) to singulars (verses 7-11) moves from general to specific.

There is a variety in the distributions of gifts, ministries, and fruitfulness by God, and what is the aim of all of them? There are two things: To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. Our gifts make much of the Spirit and our gifts make much of the body.

No one is left out; to each is given. Every believer, every person who confesses that “Jesus is Lord” (verse 3) has the Holy Spirit; there aren’t non-Spirit-gifted Christians. The Spirit Himself is a gift from the Father and the Son, and the Spirit is the active person distributing gifts.

When they are in effect these gifts are a manifestation of the Spirit. They show His presence and His power in public (see again in verse 11). This truth both bewilders and humbles. We are created as image-bearers of God. This is a great weight of glory. We are also gifted as revealers of the Spirit. What you do with your gift says something about more than you. Paul’s point here is that what you do with your gift isn’t primarily to reveal you, it’s an opportunity for others to see a Spirit-sighting.

When the Spirit is working, we know that He is glorifying Christ’s name (John 16:12-14). We also know that when the Spirit is working He is building up Christ’s body. Paul says this explicitly in 14:12: “since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.”

The second purpose[...]

1 Corinthians 12:1-6

November 11, 2018

Lord’s Day Worship

Sean Higgins

Download the bulletin.

Download the Kid’s Korner.

The sermon starts at 14:40 in the audio file.

Or, The Whence and Whither of One’s Spiritual Status

Paul had heard that when the Corinthian Christians came together for worship and fellowship, things were for the worse and they experienced more the antitype of communion. Instead of remembering and reflecting the Lord’s death at the Lord’s Table, some of them were feasting selfishly and excluding others. While they should have been celebrating the Savior they were actually serving themselves. It was so unworthy of the Supper that Paul refused to acknowledge it as the Supper, and God judged some of them with weakness, illness, and even death.

At the beginning of 1 Corinthians 12 Paul changes subjects to something they had written to him about. It is another problem, but we could also see it as the same problem with a different symptom. The problem is that they didn’t actually love one another. They looked for reasons to consider themselves more important than others.

It started in chapter 8 with the weak and the strong. There were two groups, two sides, not one. With the separation at the Lord’s Supper it’s the same thing: two groups, no unity.

We don’t know exactly what question they asked Paul in their letter, but it seems that with chapter 12 Paul begins to address another sort of taking sides: those who are spiritual from those who are not, or at least those who aren’t as significantly spiritual. Instead of unity in the Spirit, there was a spirit of competition. It further seems that the specific problem related to the spiritual gift of tongues (γλῶσσαι is “mentioned twenty-one times in chapters 12-14 and nowhere else in Paul’s letters,” Garland). A comparison between tongues and prophecy, both speaking gifts, takes up all of chapter 14. Paul appears to begin with a general discussion here in chapter 12, getting a running start into the specific concern.

In one sense we can be thankful for how much the Corinthians misunderstood and mishandled their spiritual gifts because we learn a lot about body life from Paul’s instructions. And, since we have a lot of information concerning some of what happens in other churches, there are truths in 1 Corinthians 12-14 that rebuke wrong elements of worship liturgy, These are things that at least ought to inform where/how we choose to worship. That said, in a disgracefully ironic twist, the kind of truth-teaching churches that most of us prefer tend to commit the same error of valuing a particular gift over the rest. For the Corinthians, and some of our Charismatic brothers, they value(d) tongues too much. For conservative, Reformed brothers, we tend to exalt prophecy/teaching too much, which is not actually understanding the teaching about the gifts.

Some in the body need to be humbled, some need to be encouraged, all need to be united. Verses 1-11 introduce the subject of spiritual gifts and even provide a sample list of gifts, then verses 12-31 emphasize how all these gifts work together. For this morning we’ll consider how the whence (from where, as in the source) and whither (to where, as in the goal) of our gifts determine our spiritual status.

Equality of Spiritual Status (verses 1-3)

The topic switches: Now concerning spiritual gifts. This is the fourth time the phrase now concerning has come up in the letter, and it introduces a response on Paul’s part to something they wrote and asked him about.

What did they ask? We don’t have their letter, obviously, so we have to put it together from what Paul says. Spiritual gifts is the main heading, but there are any number of questions that could be asked about that subject.

Verses 2 and 3 don’t initially appear to deal with gifts; what would be lost in the argument without them? But this is itself a clue. Paul thought [...]

Selected Scriptures

November 4, 2018

Evening Service

Jonathan Sarr

Download the Kid’s Korner.

Don’t Be a Fool

1 Corinthians 11:27-34

November 4, 2018

Lord’s Day Worship

Sean Higgins

Download the bulletin.

Download the Kid’s Korner.

The sermon starts at 14:10 in the audio file.

Or, Dangers and Doubts at the Lord’s Supper

Too many times it’s as if when the church comes together for communion, everyone is urged to look at the Table, and then the preacher dumps a pile of leaves that have been in the compost pile for six months on top of the bread and the cup. Or it’s as if he dumps the pile of compost in front of the Table and requires everyone to wade through it. Or it’s as if he tells everyone to bring their own pile from home and examine each leaf remnant looking for what is most grimy, pick it out, and stare at it for an indefinite amount of time, and then, maybe, people will be ready to eat and drink.

Beloved, these things ought not be so. You were not made for the Lord’s Supper, the Lord’s Supper was made for you.

How do you think God wants you to feel when you come to the Lord’s Table? We don’t usually talk that way, but try it out for a moment. What does He want the state of your heart to be? Even more than that, how do you think God feels when you come to the Lord’s Table? What is the state of His attitude toward you?

We’ve been lead to believe, and it is based on the verses we’re going to work through today, that God prefers that we be anxious about our sin. We don’t use the word “anxious,” because that is a sin, so we use other terms: convicted, bothered, grieved, horrified. That is how we should respond to sin we find, and there’s also a second-level worry about whether we found all the sin we’re supposed to feel bad about. As for God’s stance toward us, we envision Him in perfect holiness and perfect omniscience, with a suspicious or even displeased countenance, knowing that we don’t know how truly awful we are. He demands that we do this in remembrance, but threatens to kill us if we eat in an unworthy manner.

There is some truth in what I’ve just described, except that the gospel has been buried. There is a sliver of good news, but it is like a tiny, dry, tasteless cracker. There is a thimble of joy and life, but the joy is like one part grape juice to five parts vinegar of knowing you don’t deserve to taste the one part of joy in the first place.

Not only is this anxious approach not right, at the root of it is the same problem the Corinthians had, even though this attitude is supposedly an attempt to avoid being like the Corinthians. Paul started rebuking the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 11:17 since some of them were indulging themselves and neglecting others while claiming that they were remembering Christ. Their ironic failure is legendary, and Paul reveals that God disciplined some of them with sickness and death because of it. But what was their problem? Their problem was focus on self. And that is the same problem with the predominant sort of introspection urged on believers in our day. Focus on self, even the sinful parts, is not what the death of Christ was for, and it is not what communion is about. We do this in remembrance of Him, not in remembrance of sin. We do not share communion in cultivated unhappiness.

We must take seriously the consequences Paul describes and the counsel he gives to the Corinthians. We would be wise to follow Paul’s instructions and avoid the dangers he identifies. And also, we are wrong if we think the antidote to self-indulgence is to doubt our salvation really hard and chew the bread softly hoping that God won’t punish us.

Consequences (verses 27-32)

In the first three sentences of the paragraph Paul speaks in the third person about what happens to any person who eats unworthily, in the last three sentences he addresses them directly in the second person and then includes himself in the first person plural to describe what we must all do.

Gen[...]

1 Corinthians 11:23-26

October 28, 2018

Lord’s Day Worship

Sean Higgins

Download the bulletin.

Download the Kid’s Korner.

The sermon starts at 16:10 in the audio file.

Or, When Supper Is a Sermon

I am overwhelmed by how much good is in this paragraph, even by some of the things I’ve put together in my thinking for the first time this past week. I suppose I’ve prepared an average of 45 communion meditations a year for almost eight years now, so perhaps around 360 meditations, almost an entire year’s worth of daily thoughts. And there is still more wine in the cup, so to speak. While I know that I can’t say everything in one sermon that could be said about the Lord’s Supper, these are the verses in the chapter that we know the most, and yet this field will yield fresh fruit of encouragement as we walk through it again.

What would you say is the most important thing about communion? It is a command of the Lord, so we must obey Him and do it in remembrance of Him, but is our obedience the end, or does the Lord have a goal in mind after, or at least as part of, our obedience? Here’s another question, why is this paragraph even in the letter? This is the only place that Paul writes so distinctly about a tradition he received from the Lord; this is more a dominical statement than an apostolic one. There is more quoting of Jesus here than Paul does about any other issue. Why? And again, why here? The Corinthians were having problems when they came together, including their practice of the Lord’s Supper (11:20), but would we miss anything in the admonition if we skipped verses 23-26?

Paul himself viewed this almost formulaic reminder–and we know it was a reminder based on his report that he already “delivered it” to them–as an explanation for his inability to commend them. These verses aren’t merely content, they are for comparison. The Lord’s Supper is a memorial, but it is also a mirror. Maybe the key word in the paragraph is the first word, “for.” Paul had no reason to praise them and that was based on the meaning of the Supper itself.

The two questions, what is the most important thing about the Lord’s Supper, and why is this paragraph even in the letter, have the same answer. We eat and drink in remembrance of Him, and this remembrance is true or false by how we behave not just what we say we believe. To state it differently, the problem wasn’t with the Corinthians’ faulty confession of the nature or importance of the Supper, the problem was with the Corinthians’ faulty living in light of Christ’s death. You don’t cry at a party, dance at a funeral, or indulge yourself at a meal which remembers One who gave Himself for others.

This is exactly what made it worse when the Corinthians came together. At least some of the church members were feasting themselves into drunkenness while other members were put off and left hungry. This is anti-gospel, anti-cross, un-Christian behavior, so much so that Paul says, “When you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper that you eat” (verse 20). Presumably they thought they were observing communion, they probably used the right words, but how they treated one another betrayed them.

So in this paragraph Paul reminds them of when the Lord instituted the sacrament (a sacred or holy thing) of communion so that they will remember the Lord and remember their identity in the Lord.

What the Lord Said to Do (verses 23-25)

This is explanation not just about the Lord’s Supper, which it is, but it is explanation about why Paul can’t commend them. What they’re doing doesn’t match with what the Lord did and what He said to do.

For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, which doesn’t tell us if the Lord revealed it to Paul directly when he was in the wilderness (see Galatians 1:11-12) or if the ultim[...]

Selected Scriptures

October 21, 2018

Evening Service

Jim Martin

Download the Kid’s Korner.

1 Corinthians 11:17-22

October 21, 2018

Lord’s Day Worship

Sean Higgins

Download the bulletin.

Download the Kid’s Korner.

The sermon starts at 16:10 in the audio file.

Or, More Harm, and Good, at the Lord’s Supper

It’s one thing to trip on a step, it’s another thing to trip on a step two minutes after someone warned you to watch out for a step that lots of people trip on. It’s one thing to order Diet Coke, it’s another thing to order a Diet Coke with your fried stick of butter at the State Fair. It’s one thing to come together, it’s another thing to come together to humiliate one another; it would have been better just to stay home.

While some of the praying and prophesying in 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 may have happened when the church gathered, there’s no doubt that the entire church has gathered as the church in verses 17-34. Five times in these verses, and three times in the first four sentences, Paul writes, “when you come together.” In particular the second half of chapter 11 is about coming together (physically) to share the Lord’s supper (verse 20), and Paul rebukes them for not actually coming together (figuratively) and so they were not actually eating the Lord’s Supper (spiritually). One commentator called the scene “a theatre of discord” (Godet, quoted by Garland). It is possible that coming together can do more harm than good.

In the first half of the chapter Paul commended the Corinthians for their orderliness in recognizing appropriate distinctions. In the second half of the chapter Paul criticizes the Corinthians for their disorderliness in regarding inappropriate distinctions. The first half is about head coverings, the second half is about communion. The first half is about reflecting God-given structures of authority, the second half is about reflecting anti-gospel arrangements. The first half is about honoring one’s head, the second half is about humiliating one’s brother.

Verses 17-34 are all about communion, and especially about how the Corinthians were eating and drinking in an “unworthy manner” (verse 27, and the background of that claim is described in the first paragraph, verses 17-22). Most of the instruction I’ve heard about communion, and it has usually had much more to do with the nature of the elements more than the nature of the supper itself, has started in verse 23 and finished in verse 32. These are the only NT verses that repeat the Lord’s instructions when He instituted the ordinance, so that’s significant. These verses describe the consequence of unworthy partaking as sickness and death, which is also significant. And while acknowledging that “unworthy manner” could cover a variety of manners, the verses that bookend the instruction and exhortation, verses 17-22 and 33-34, are critical to defining what sort of manner is unworthy.

To be sure, the Corinthians needed correction. But as true as it is that those who administer the sacrament of communion should take this passage seriously, and so teach and warn partakers about the dangers involved, it is also true that not every believer and not every church that comes to eat and drink the Lord’s supper has the Corinthians’ sins. The Corinthians came together in a way that undermined the gospel, and there is more than one way to undermine the gospel. Many Christians served themselves first rather than their brothers and so failed to honor Christ who gave Himself for others. But many Christians today beat themselves up through miserable introspection when by Christ’s wounds we are healed. Getting drunk at communion is not the gospel, and neither is dumpster diving to find sin to feel bad about.

In verses 17-22 we see the disorder and division when the church came together, and it did more harm, and good.

Rebuke (verse 17)

The previous paragraph stands out in the letter for its positivity and p[...]