What tactic did Donald Trump steal from Gordon Brown? What can we learn from when Labour beat UKIP in the 2012 Rotherham by-election when it comes to taking on Farage? As a New Labour alumnus, why does John Healey think there was more patience for change in 1997 compared to 2024? 

Rory and Alastair are joined by John Healey, The Secretary of State for Defence, to discuss all this and more. 

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Social Producer: Celine Charles

Producer: Alice Horrell

Senior Producer: Nicole Maslen

Head of Politics: Tom Whiter

Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport

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