Betsy O’Donovan, an assistant professor of journalism at Western Washington University, and Melody Kramer, senior audience development manager at the Wikimedia Foundation, join producer Michael O'Connell to discuss a new report on metrics in journalism from the American Press Institute, why they've always mattered and why veteran journalists will embrace more easily the priorities newsrooms believe matter most.

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.