Richard Hart is one of the world’s most respected bakers and a celebrated author. He first rose to prominence in the early 2000s while working at the legendary Tartine Bakery, San Francisco. From there, he co-founded Hart Bageri with René Redzepi in Copenhagen, before relocating to Mexico City, where he recently opened his latest venture, Green Rhino. Richard is also the author of the James Beard Award–winning book Richard Hart Bread, and is widely regarded as one of the greatest exponents of sourdough bread on the planet.

In this episode, we dive deep into the craft and science of sourdough: how Richard’s methods and protocols have evolved over the years, the role of different cereals and milling techniques, the importance of water in bread, yeast management, ovens and baking temperatures, and practical tips for baking at home. We also explore bread culture and chew over some wonderfully contentious questions — from whether a pizza qualifies as a sandwich to the eternal mystery of the Jaffa Cake.

Although this is primarily a podcast about spirits, cocktails, and bars, The Curious Bartender is ultimately about curiosity. Bread has always fascinated me, and sitting down with one of the key figures who helped popularise sourdough worldwide was an opportunity I simply couldn’t turn down. It didn’t disappoint.

00:00 Introduction

01:44 Drinks Preferences

02:44 Balancing Eating & Exercise as a Chef & Baker, Working Hours

06:14 Baking Schedule & Flavour Considerations

08:44 Baking at Tartine in San Francisco, Instagram & Fame

12:29 Working with Rene Redzepi, Copenhagen, Hart Bageri, Danish Bread Culture, Family

19:29 Moving to Mexico City, City Life, Gentrification

23:14 Opening Green Rhino, Baking for Life, Incorporating Mexican Food, Chocolate, Corn, R&D, Fucking People Up

30:54 Flour, Milling, Selecting Wheat, Sourdough Process: Temperature & Time, Gluten

39:04 Water for Baking

40:59 Sourdough Starters: Superstition, Protocols, Effects of Altitude in Mexico City

48:29 Pursuing the Perfect Loaf, Defining a Perfect Loaf, Tweaking Parameters, Comparison to Cooking and Cocktails

54:04 Working with Rye, Danish Bread Culture

57:34 Other Grains: Oats, Spelt, Durum, Einkorn

1:00:44 Water Substitutes: Beer, Tea

1:03:04 Making Brioche, Burger Buns

1:05:44 Stoneground flour, Wood fired ovens, Thermo-oil vs Electric Ovens, Oven Dynamics

1:08:58 Baking Bread at Home - Techniques and Tips, Temperature & Steam

1:12:01 Is Bread The Best it’s Ever Been? Fixing Supermarket Bread

1:15:11 Bread Guilty Pleasures

1:15:53 Is a Pizza a Sandwich?

1:18:58 Burger Flipping Masochism

1:20:50 Is a Jaffa Cake a Cake or a Biscuit?

1:21:14 Sandwich Filling & Bread Pairing