Harold McGee is a man that requires no introduction if you are someone who has worked in food and drink in any capacity at all. In 1984 he published McGee On Food & Cooking and brought the science and technology of cooking and flavour to the masses. A second edition in 2004 served as the practical manual for any chef worth their salt, and elevated Harold to the status of godfather - or perhaps even god - of culinary science. More recently, he published a book called Nose Dive, which investigates aroma and smell, which is a topic we explore during our conversationAlso on the menu:Why humans enjoy bitterness, how herbs have co-opted us, how salt makes food more delicious, how water opens up the aromas of spirits, what happens when wine matures in the bottle, why some drinks have ‘length’, how evolution and culture have shaped our flavour preferences, what we mean when we say a drink or dish is balanced, what the next frontiers of flavour science look like, and much more.

📷 Follow me on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/tristanstephenson/📚 I've written quite a few books on spirits and cocktails - https://www.thecuriousbartender.com/

Today I am speaking with Serge Valentin. Serge is a whisky expert and the founder of a whiskyfun.com - which is widely regarded as the go-to review repository for whisky tasting notes and scores on the internet. Over the past 23 years Serge has tasted over 20,000 bottles ranging from entry level staples to some of the rarest in the world. His scoring system has become the de facto benchmark by which many measure the quality of a dram, and Serge has become a cult hero amongst the world’s whisky geeks.

On the episode we discuss tasting whisky - personal preferences over objective goodness, the hubris of blind tasting, whether whisky is too serious, the role of independent bottlers, how whisky changes in the bottle, recent exceptional whiskies, weird whisky, the founding of whiskyfun.com, the importance of education, changing tastes, whisky myths, and much more.

In today’s episode, I’m joined by one of the true mavericks of American distilling — Lance Winters of St. George Spirits. This is a journey that begins in the orchard, with pears, quinces and raspberries destined for eau de vie, and stretches all the way to absinthe, American gin, rum and even highballs built on umeshu and Baller whisky.

We trace the roots of St. George back to Jörg Rupf and the early days of California craft distilling in the 1980s, and follow Lance’s arrival and the evolution of a house defined not by category, but by philosophy. Along the way we dive into the uncompromising art of eau de vie — fruit selection, fermentation, and the stills that shape every spirit they make — and ask how that sensibility influences whisky, rum and beyond.

From jalapeño vodka to acorn spirits, from dill lactones in oak to the question of consistency versus expression, this conversation is about more than products. It’s about place, curiosity, and a willingness to let flavour lead. We explore American gin through Californian botanicals, the rebirth of absinthe, the origins of Baller, the future of eau de vie, and where all this innovation leaves the legacy of St. George.

This is not a tour through a portfolio — it’s a look inside a creative engine.

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Charles Denby is the co-founder and CEO of Berkeley Yeast, a company that’s reimagining fermentation through genetics. With a PhD in molecular and cell biology from UC Berkeley, Charles and his team are using genetic science not to replace brewing tradition, but to enhance it — designing new yeast strains that can transform how beer, wine, and even spirits are made.In this conversation, we dive deep into the biology that underpins flavour. We unpack what yeast actually is, why it produces alcohol, and how its metabolism creates the esters and aromatics we love in drinks. Charles explains how fermentation conditions shape flavour, how lager and ale yeasts differ, and what really happens inside the tank at every stage of fermentation.From there, we go microscopic — exploring yeast genetics, DNA modification, and the molecular tools that make it all possible. Charles shares how Berkeley Yeast engineers strains to enhance tropical aromas in hazy IPAs, introduce new layers of bitterness, or even make brewing non-alcoholic and healthier beers more efficient.We also discuss the broader implications of this technology — from applications in wine and spirits to the stigma surrounding GMOs and what “responsible innovation” really means in the drinks world.

This is a fascinating deep dive into the invisible world that drives fermentation — and how science is quietly shaping the future of flavour.If you like this content please consider subscribing.

00:00 Introduction

02:34 Charles’ Background in Science & Origins of Berkeley Yeast
10:29 What is Yeast? Why Does it Produce Alcohol? Yeast Metabolism
16:49 Fermentation Conditions, Ester Metabolism
22:04 Yeast Species: Lager & Ale Yeasts
24:24 Stages of Fermentation
28:34 Nutrients for Fermentation, Amino Acid Synthesis, Diacetyl Production
36:34 Why Is Beer Fizzy? Production of CO2 During Fermentation
37:34 Yeast Genetics, Cell Biology, Evolutionary Biology
42:29 Modifying Yeast DNA, Molecular Scissors, Polymerase Chain Reaction
55:54 The Complex Web of Genetic Modification
1:01:14 Testing Yeast in Berkeley Yeast’s Microbrewery
1:04:04 Comparing Hazy IPA Yeasts, Creating Tropical Aromas
1:09:19 Engineering Yeast for Bitterness
1:12:04 Brewing Non-Alcohol Beer, Vacuum Distillation: Method, Downsides
1:16:54 Brewing Beer for Health
1:22:17 Applications in Wine: Flavour, Low-Alcohol, Cultural Knock on Effect
1:26:14 Residual Sugar in No/Low Alcohol Ferments
1:27:59 Applications in Spirits: Flavour & Efficiency
1:30:49 The Berkeley Yeast Business Model, Lifespan of Yeast Cultures, Competition
1:35:44 Overcoming the Stigma of GMO, Responsible Technology, Defining GMO in Beer

Megs Miller is a bartender, educator, and all-round agave obsessive — whose journey has taken her across multiple continents but most recently to Mexico City, where she runs Salón de Agave, a tasting room dedicated to exploring the depth and diversity of Mexico’s native spirits.In this episode, you can expect to learn about agave species and taxonomy, how different agave species affect the mind and body — Megs and her co-worker Sophie have been conducting a two-year experiment on this — insights into retailing agave spirits in Mexico, the nuances of terroir and regional flavour mapping, and the joy of glass-matured mezcal.We also dive into sotol, pulque, and the evolving conversation around responsibility, sourcing, and politics in agave spirits. From the cheesiness of Inaequidens to the pine forests of Chihuahua, and from women’s progress in the industry to the cultural storytelling behind each bottle — this is a deep and generous look at the Mexican spirit.Megs was so generous, in fact, that we tasted around 25 different distillates — and as someone who’s tasted quite a few in my time, I wasn’t surprised to find that there were many amazing surprises. I wasn’t able to write down or document them all, but if you’re interested in anything in particular, I suggest giving Salón de Agave a follow on Instagram or booking a session with them next time you’re in Mexico City. It’s awesome.https://salondeagave.com/

00:00 Intro

02:25 Meg’s Trip to Durango
06:25 Agave Species and Taxonomy, Tequila
11:25 How Different Agaves Affect Your Body, Agave Spirits Distillation
15:35 Retail of Agave Spirits in Mexico
16:35 Terpenes in Agave Spirits, Health
18:55 Moving to Mexico – Opening Salón de Agave
26:25 Glass-Matured Mezcal, Pechuga, Salt & Lime
37:25 Agave Education, Price & Value
45:05 Mapping Flavour Around Mexico, Terroir
49:55 Tasting Maguey Inaequidens Agave, Cheesiness, Narcos
56:45 Back to Durango, Maguey Lampranillo, Label Design
1:00:35 Tasting Vino del Norte from Pechotierra, Pulque Production, Appreciating Pulque
1:06:40 The Evolving Flavour of Agave Spirits, Appreciating Agave Spirits, Glassware
1:08:15 Sotol, Dasylirion
1:10:32 Texture and Mouthfeel in Agave Spirits, Tuning Your Flavour Perception, Context in Tasting
1:19:25 Mezcal Labelling, DO, Rebellion, World Agave Spirits, Mezcal Politics, Responsible Sourcing
1:28:25 Chihuahua Sotol, Pine Forests, Cultural Terroir
1:31:42 Women in Agave Spirits: Challenges, Progress
1:40:25 Guerrero Cupreata, Inconsistency, Scarcity, Bottle Killing
1:45:15 Distilado de Pulque from Salmiana, Mango Distillate
1:48:45 Identifying Agave by Smell: Inaequidens & Salmiana, San Luis Potosí Agave Cooking
1:51:45 Challenging Preconceptions in Agave Spirits, Smokiness
1:54:25 Oaxaca, Small-Batch Cupreata, Cowhide Fermentation
1:56:35 Tasting Notes, Describing Flavour, Context

Richard Hart is one of the world’s most respected bakers and a celebrated author. He first rose to prominence in the early 2000s while working at the legendary Tartine Bakery, San Francisco. From there, he co-founded Hart Bageri with René Redzepi in Copenhagen, before relocating to Mexico City, where he recently opened his latest venture, Green Rhino. Richard is also the author of the James Beard Award–winning book Richard Hart Bread, and is widely regarded as one of the greatest exponents of sourdough bread on the planet.

In this episode, we dive deep into the craft and science of sourdough: how Richard’s methods and protocols have evolved over the years, the role of different cereals and milling techniques, the importance of water in bread, yeast management, ovens and baking temperatures, and practical tips for baking at home. We also explore bread culture and chew over some wonderfully contentious questions — from whether a pizza qualifies as a sandwich to the eternal mystery of the Jaffa Cake.

Although this is primarily a podcast about spirits, cocktails, and bars, The Curious Bartender is ultimately about curiosity. Bread has always fascinated me, and sitting down with one of the key figures who helped popularise sourdough worldwide was an opportunity I simply couldn’t turn down. It didn’t disappoint.

00:00 Introduction

01:44 Drinks Preferences

02:44 Balancing Eating & Exercise as a Chef & Baker, Working Hours

06:14 Baking Schedule & Flavour Considerations

08:44 Baking at Tartine in San Francisco, Instagram & Fame

12:29 Working with Rene Redzepi, Copenhagen, Hart Bageri, Danish Bread Culture, Family

19:29 Moving to Mexico City, City Life, Gentrification

23:14 Opening Green Rhino, Baking for Life, Incorporating Mexican Food, Chocolate, Corn, R&D, Fucking People Up

30:54 Flour, Milling, Selecting Wheat, Sourdough Process: Temperature & Time, Gluten

39:04 Water for Baking

40:59 Sourdough Starters: Superstition, Protocols, Effects of Altitude in Mexico City

48:29 Pursuing the Perfect Loaf, Defining a Perfect Loaf, Tweaking Parameters, Comparison to Cooking and Cocktails

54:04 Working with Rye, Danish Bread Culture

57:34 Other Grains: Oats, Spelt, Durum, Einkorn

1:00:44 Water Substitutes: Beer, Tea

1:03:04 Making Brioche, Burger Buns

1:05:44 Stoneground flour, Wood fired ovens, Thermo-oil vs Electric Ovens, Oven Dynamics

1:08:58 Baking Bread at Home - Techniques and Tips, Temperature & Steam

1:12:01 Is Bread The Best it’s Ever Been? Fixing Supermarket Bread

1:15:11 Bread Guilty Pleasures

1:15:53 Is a Pizza a Sandwich?

1:18:58 Burger Flipping Masochism

1:20:50 Is a Jaffa Cake a Cake or a Biscuit?

1:21:14 Sandwich Filling & Bread Pairing

Dave Broom is one of the most prominent and influential voices in the world of whisky and over the course of his career he has written some of the most important books on whisky and spirits including The World Atlas of Whisky, Whisky: The Manual, A Sense of Place, and The Way of Whisky — works that have shaped the way both enthusiasts and professionals understand flavour, culture, and the people behind the glass.On the episode we delve into the all important sense of place — from the cultural terroir of Scotland to the artistry and craft of distilling, and how flavour finds its way into the glass. Dave takes us from Japan to New Zealand, from English farms to French stills, as we explore the global spread of malt whisky and why everyone seems to be making it.We also get into his writing: the discipline, the methodology, the architecture of narrative non-fiction, and the influence of mentors like Michael Jackson. Along the way, we talk music, art, storytelling, and the state of drinks journalism today.And we taste some stuff too — French sorghum whisky, Breton malts, German rye, and the genius of Chichibu, and a sneak preview of the whisky from my new project at Rosemaund Farm — each dram opening the door to wider conversations about style, strength, regionality and the shape of whisky itself.And we close with the big themes: whisky’s current bubble, the secondary market, daily drams, and favourite distilleries.

02:37 A Sense of Place - Terroir in Spirits, Scotch Whisky Cultural Terroir
10:02 Artistry & Craft in Whisky Making - Learning from Masters, Adapting Tradition, Economics and Law
15:07 How Do Flavours Find Their Way Into Whisky? The Way of Whisky and Japan
19:42 Whisky In New Zealand - Codrona, Burning Manuka Wood, Waiheke Distillery
22:17 Why is Everyone Making Malt Whisky?
23:59 Writing - Latest Project, Mixing American Whiskey, Untold American Whiskey History, Researching History
34:27 Dave’s Writing Process - Research, Poetry, Methodology - The World Atlas of Whisky: Influence, Practicality
39:48 Writing Narrative non-fiction - Road Trip Books, Telling Stories, Narrative Architecture, The State of Drinks Journalism, Content and distraction, Photography
52:17 The Arts & Spirits - Music, Art, Culture
56:47 Tasting Bows French Sorghum Whisky - The French Whisky Category, Regionality, Eau de Vie
1:02:07 *Dave’s Methodology for Assessing Whisky - Writing Tasting Notes, The Shape of Whisky
1:07:37 The Macbeth Whisky Series - Making Whisky Fun through Communication of Flavour
1:11:07 Tasting Rosemaund Farm 10 Year Old English Whisky
1:17:30 Whisky Bottling Strength - The English Whisky Category
1:20:42 Dave’s Early Career - Writing, Oddbins, Pubs, Becoming a Spirits Writer
1:25:37 The Influence of Michael Jackson - Writing Style, Beer, Writing for Consumers
1:28:57 Dave’s Writing Style - Poetry, Discipline, Trade Knowledge
1:32:42 Tone of Voice in Writing
1:34:07 Tasting Breton Whisky from Distillerie La Mine D'or ‘Galad’, Armorik Distillery, Development of French Whisky Market
1:37:12 *The Bursting of the Whisky Bubble - Overproduction, Lessons from the Past, Pricing, Perception of Whisky
1:48:47 Secondary Whisky Market - Auction House Bubble, Karuizawa, American Whiskey
1:51:42 Opening Rare Bottles, Buying Whisky, Daily Drams, Changing Preferences for Taste
1:57:27 Tasting Hardenberg German Straight Whisky - Leopold Bros.
2:00:09 Chichibu Tasting - The Genius of Ichiro Akuto, Malting, Barley, Mizunara
2:03:56 Quickfire Questions

Dave's site - https://thewhiskymanual.uk

Dave on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/davewasabi/

Liquid Antiquarian YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/c/TheLiquidAntiquarian

Rosemaund Farm Distillery - http://www.rosemaund.com📷 Follow me on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/tristanstephenson/📚 I've written quite a few books on spirits and cocktails - https://www.thecuriousbartender.com/

This week I’m joined by Nick Strangeway, one of the most influential British bartenders of the modern era. With almost 40 years in and around the London drinks scene, Nick has tended bar at legendary spots like Fred’s Club, The Atlantic Bar & Grill, and Che, designed drinks programmes for Hawksmoor, Hix, and The Groucho Club, and consulted for venues worldwide. He’s also ventured into spirits production — from creating flavoured vodkas with Absolut under the Absolut Craft label, to co-founding Hepple Gin and Second Sip, a low-ABV gin.

Nick’s career is deeply intertwined with the late, great Dick Bradsell. They worked together on and off for over a decade, and much of the first part of our conversation explores Soho’s 1980s and 1990s bar scene — the people, brands, drinks, and wild stories that defined the era.

We go on to cover everything from the art of serving a martini, creativity in bartending, the brilliance of batching, the gentrification of London, Simon Difford and Class magazine, taking inspiration from the kitchen, the beauty of punch, the problem with bars you can’t sit at, fighting customers, and Nick’s latest venture — a new basement bar beneath a jeweller in Burlington Arcade, which opened just last week.

If you’re not yet subscribed, now’s the time. Next week, I’ll be speaking with perhaps the greatest living whisky writer, followed by a two-week trip across Mexico and the USA to record with some true heavyweights of the food and drink world. Don’t miss out — it’s free.

00:00 Introduction

02:42 Frozen Glasses, Martinis, Champagne, Specifications, Vermouth

06:59 Nick’s Entry into Bars - The Allure of Bars, Fred’s Club

11:42 Working with Dick Bradsell - Bramble, Vodka Espresso

15:42 The Changing Nature of London - 1980’s to 2020’s - Drinking Dens in Soho, Gentrification, Community, Class

24:12 Modern Bartending: Influencers, Competence, Creativity, Hospitality, Bar as a Barrier

34:22 Working at Che - The Customer Perspective, Fighting in Bars, Dick Bradsell Vaulting Over the Bar

39:57 Following Dick Bradsell to Atlantic Bar & Grill, Detroit, The Flamingo, Dick Bradsell’s Approach to Hospitality & The Scene

53:19 Creating Cocktails - Modifying Classics, Simon Difford - Class Magazine, Sauce Guides

59:22 American Cocktails vs. UK, Punches

1:04:22 Shifting to Restaurant Bars - Challenges, Chef Approach to Drinks, Batching Cocktails, Theatre, Bars that You Can’t Sit At

1:24:42 The Origins of Hawksmoor - The Benefits of No Uniform, Building a Great Team, Obsession, Eating Pencils, Jonathan Downey & the Smoking Ban

1:43:21 Developing spirits for Absolut

1:48:57 The Birth of Hepple Gin - Valentine Warner, Walter Riddel, Northumbria, Wild Juniper, Technology - Super Critical CO2 Extraction

2:00:37 Second Sip Low ABV Gin - Development, Leo Robitschek, Overcoming Technical Challenges - Texture, Louche

2:11:02 No Regrets Bar - Designing a New Bar Concept for Mayfair, Curating Clientele

2:18:12 Other Projects - Richard Corrigan, Valentine Warner & Wild Kitchen 

Episode sponsored by Fever-Tree

Henrietta Lovell is the founder and CEO of The Rare Tea company, a tea educator and author of the book Infused: Adventures in Tea. Over a career of more than 20 years Henrietta has travelled around the foothills of the Himalayas, across China, Japan, India, and Malawi, sourcing some of the best teas in the world and learning from the communities that grow them. She has worked with world class chefs and bartenders, including supplying tea at some of the bars I have owned over the years. In fact we first met around 15 years ago when I opened the Worship Street Whistling Shop in London.This episode is a tea masterclass that covers the basics of growing, processing, brewing and tasting tea, but also explores, history, economics, sustainability, agricuture, health, poverty, and some of the most expensive teas on the planet. Expect to learn where most of the world’s tea is grown - clue it isn’t china or India, why it is the Emperors Golden Eyebrows costs in excess of £250 for a 30g bag, why you shouldn’t ever brew good tea for three minutes, best practices for making tea infusions in spirits and for the bar, and much more.To support this podcast please like and subscribe.

🙏 This episode is sponsored by Fever-Tree📷 Follow me on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/tristanstephenson/

00:00 Introduction

01:41 Cold Brewed Tea - Avoiding oxidation, Osmosis, Method

06:21 The Remarkable way that high end Jasmine Tea is Made, tasting, uses of Jasmine tea Noma
10:56 Tea as an Alternative to Wine - tasting Himalayan First Spring blended with Japanese Sencha
13:24 Tea Varietals, Colonial History, Early Tea Drinks in India, Blending Tea & Comparisons to whisky
19:11 Tea Types - White, Green, Oolong, Black, Pu’erh - Controlling Oxidation, Drying, Terroir and Agriculture, Fermentation
25:24 Where Tea Grows - Environment
26:41 East Africa, The Problem with Commodity Tea, Brokers, Responsible Tea Drinking, Direct Trade
32:46 finding the Best Teas - Flavour, Independent, Organic Practices (vs. Organic Certification), Polyculture Framing, Impact of other Flora on Tea
38:27 The Lifespan of a Tea Plant, Harvesting (Machine vs. Hand), Risk of Tech on Tea Communities
45:51 Perception of Tea - Taste Testing, The Problem with Tea Bags, Practicality of Brewing Tea vs. Coffee
54:16 Fruit Teas - Flavour Essences, Fruit Extracts
01:00:46 Trading Up on Tea - What to Look For, Margins on Tea
1:05:44 Tasting Coffee Leaf Tea
1:08:31 Pu’erh Tea - Pairing for Food, Flavour, Ageing Tea, Tea Cakes, Tea Collectors, Tong Mu Village, Emperor’s Golden Eyebrow Tea
1:17:21 Brewing Techniques - Equipment, Temperature, Brew Ratio, Time
1:28:14 Carbonating Tea, Salting tea, Pairing with Cheese
1:30:18 Matcha - Colour, Origins, Production (traditional vs modern), Commodity Matcha Syrups & Matcha Trend, Matcha and Coconut Water
1:40:23 Caffeine in Tea - Inconsistency, vs. Coffee, Decaf Tea
1:43:53 Alcohol based Tea Extractions - Protocols, Flavour, demo with Gin Infusion, Tea Cocktails
1:52:11 Closing Words - Tea in the Present Day, Yerba Maté

Dale is a bartender, author, brand owner, and the co-founder of the Museum of the American cocktail. In the late 90’s working at NYC’s Rainbow Rooms Dale was probably the most famous bartender on the planet and has remained one of the best loved bartenders to this day. 

I sat down with Dale in Manhattan a few weeks ago, looking out over the Empire State Building as the sun went down. The interview was scheduled during a very tight window of opportunity between Dale arriving back from Tales of the Cocktail in New Orleans and me catching a flight back to London. We had just 90 minutes, which wasn’t nearly enough time for a man with some many stories and such a sharp memory.

In fact chronologically we barely got to 1990 before I had to turn off the microphones and hot foot it to catch my flight. For that reason, I am calling this interview Part one and hope to sit down with Dale to record the second part next year - and who knows, maybe we will need a third part.

What you are about to hear is less a story of Dale’s career and more a tour of New York and Los Angeles hospitality from the late 1950’s through to the 80’s, exploring its jazz clubs, neighbourhood bars, and some of the greatest restaurants and hotels of the 20th century. Dale recounts the musicians that provided the soundtrack, the chefs that designed the cuisine, and the architects that imagined the buildings, all in vivid detail.

Perhaps the most significant of these people to Dale, was Joe Baum - one of the United States most significant restauranteurs who introduced the concept of themed restaurant tot he world with no expense spared. Working with acclaimed chefs like Julia Child and James Beard, he opened hundreds of restaurants across America, most notably The Four Seasons Restaurant, Windows of the World at the top of the world trade centre, and the Rainbow Room at the Rockefeller Centre. You’ll hear about other venues during the course of our conversation too.

We also discuss the founding and challenging upbringing of the Museum of the American Cocktail, the incredible aesthetic and culinary vision of Joe Baum, the establishment of modern American cuisine, what it was like working at the Bel Air Hotel in the 1980’s, the establishment of The Rainbow Room, and much much more.

There are perhaps 100 different names and venues mentioned in this episode and it can get quite confusing. If you’re of the mind to do so I recommend watching the episode on YouTube when you get a chance, as I have provided archive images and captions to help paint the picture.

Episode sponsored by Fever-Tree Mixers

https://degroffspirits.com

00:00 Introduction

03:11 Tales of the Cocktail

06:41 Building the Museum of the American Cocktail - Jared Brown & The Rainbow Room, Ted Haigh, History of the Cocktail, Building the Collection, Locations

20:09 Dale’s Early Life - Acting, Moving to Manhattan, Packing Bibles*, Restaurant Associates, Howard Johnson’s, Jazz Clubs*, McGlade’s Bar

38:11 Working with Joe Baum, Restaurant Associates, Charlie O’s, Newarker, Four Seasons at the Seagrams Building, Modern American Cuisine, James Beard, La Fonda del Sol

53:59 The Rainbow Room: Early History, Design

55:11 Bel Air Hotel in Los Angeles - Cocktails, 7/11 Mix, Martini Rituals*

1:06:32 Aurora Restaurant, Reviving Classic Cocktails, Fresh Juices, Jerry Thomas

1:08:11 Building the Rainbow Room - Researching Classics, Recruiting Teams

1:18:01 Becoming Famous, Impact on cocktail culture around NYC, Consulting with Keith McNally - Balthazar, Pravda, Lucky Strike