As Tuesday transitions out of The Outside, she and Tim take a long look back at nearly two decades of working together - from meeting at an Art of Hosting training in Colorado to leading large-scale systems change work around the world.

In this deeply reflective conversation, they unpack the original hypotheses behind The Outside:

• Could participatory leadership and equity genuinely transform systems?
• What happens when you bring power analysis into institutional change work?
• Did the work actually create the impact they hoped for?

Along the way, they explore the tension between systems change and personal transformation, the realities of burnout, the limits of organizational change, and why “loosening the bolts” may matter more than delivering predictable outcomes.

This episode is an honest conversation about complexity, leadership, relationships, and what they now believe really changes people — and systems.

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