If you’ve ever wondered whether recovery can feel more practical, more flexible, and more grounded in science, this conversation opens that door. We sit down with SMART Recovery’s executive director, Pete Rubinas, to explore a peer-led model that pairs individual agency with supportive community - without sponsors, required labels, or prescribed beliefs.

Pete Rubinas shares his path from participant to facilitator to director, then takes us inside a typical SMART meeting: clear guidelines, honest check-ins, crosstalk that invites dialogue, and tool-driven conversations rooted in CBT and motivational interviewing. We dig into the Four-Point Program and the Family & Friends handbook, why writing things down reduces self-deception, and how participants use practical worksheets to make real changes between meetings. If you’re earlier in the stages of change, you’ll hear how SMART welcomes varied goals—abstinence, moderation, or harm reduction - and respects your right to change your mind as you learn.

We also widen the lens beyond alcohol and drugs. Because SMART is behavioral, the same tools apply to challenges like overeating, pornography, or workaholism. That mix helps people see shared patterns and feel less alone, supported by self-compassion and mindfulness instead of shame. Pete explains SMART’s rapid growth, the rise of online and affinity meetings (including daily options for veterans and first responders), and partnerships with treatment programs and peer recovery specialists who champion multiple pathways. Throughout, we return to a simple idea: people do better when you offer real choices, clear tools, and a community where change feels possible.

Ready to explore another pathway or add something new? Listen now, then try an online meeting, grab the handbook, and tell us what resonates. If this conversation helped, subscribe, share it with someone who needs hope, and leave a quick review to help others find the show.

Other useful links from Brett:

• Sober Curious Consulting - Brett's Recovery Friendly Workplace consulting business.
• How Recovery Friendly is Your Workplace Quiz - 3-min quiz where you learn a lot.
• Brett's YouTube channel
• Washington Recovery Alliance - building the capacity of the recovery community to advance substance use recovery and mental health wellness by catalyzing public understanding and shaping public policy in Washington State.
• Recovery-Ready Workplace Toolkit - providing information, tools, and resources to help employers from all sectors—government, for-profit, non-profit, and not-for-profit—effectively prevent and respond to substance misuse in the workforce from the Department of Labor.
• Data on SUD in the US (2024) - from SAMHSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration). Link to my favorite PDF for statistics.
• Understand Substance Use Disorders and Stigma (1 hour video) - learn about the brain science behind substance use disorders and ...

What if the right words could loosen shame’s grip and make change feel possible? That’s the question we chase with poet, educator, and “narrative disruptor” Joseph Green as we unpack how labels shape identity, how language can block help or build it, and why redefining recovery around health and contribution saves lives.

We dig into a more generous frame: recovery as the ongoing practice of seeking health, adding value, and designing supports that fit real bodies and real lives, including medication-assisted treatment and mental health meds. Joseph shares his own regimen without shame and talks about building a tripod of care - bio support, daily practices, and honest relationships - so anxiety no longer leads.

Art runs through the story. Joseph traces how performance anxiety fused with substances in college, how quitting meant stepping off stage, and how purpose brought him back. A friend’s death, a hotel room, and a poem became a literal turning point - choosing craft over the bar and using art to serve people instead of ego. We explore youth work, from coaching debate to leading a nonprofit that powered poetry slams and classroom programs across dozens of schools. He reflects on intergenerational community and how creative expression gives teens language to weather their storms.

At home, Joseph and his family practice openness. He talks with his kids about addiction in plain words, teaches breathing and chanting, and centers expression over suppression. The conversation builds to a live spoken word performance - raw, precise, and unforgettable - on telling the hard truths that can keep someone alive. Come for the poetry, stay for the practical tools, and leave with a new way to talk about recovery, stigma, and the everyday rituals that make healing stick.

If this moved you, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review with your favorite line from the poem. Your words help more people find theirs.

More info on Joseph Green:

LMS Voice - Founded by award-winning storyteller Joseph Green, LMSvoice empowers organizations to transform harmful narratives into stories of connection and equity.

Joseph on LinkedIn

Other useful links from Brett:

• Sober Curious Consulting - Brett's Recovery Friendly Workplace consulting business.
• How Recovery Friendly is Your Workplace Quiz - 3-min quiz where you learn a lot.
• Brett's YouTube channel
• Washington Recovery Alliance - building the capacity of the recovery community to advance substance use recovery and mental health wellness by catalyzing public understanding and shaping public policy in Washington State.
• Recovery-Ready Workplace Toolkit - providing information, tools, and resources to help employers from all sectors—government, for-profit, non-profit, and not-for-profit—effectively prevent and respond to substance misuse in the workforce from the Department of Labor.
• Data on SUD in the US (2024) - from SAMHSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration). Link to my favorite PDF for statistics.
• Understand Substance Use Disorders and Stigma (1 hour video) - learn about the brain science behind substance use disorders and ...

Chris Haugen's transformation from a touring guitarist juggling substance issues to a focused recording artist with nearly half a million monthly Spotify listeners stands as powerful testimony to what happens when creative energy finds proper channeling.

"Taking a lot of chaotic energy and streaming it down to one solid, focused beam" is how Chris describes his current creative process three years into sobriety. The results speak volumes—his monthly listeners jumped from 3,000 to 480,000, a testament not to diminished creativity but to enhanced focus and artistic direction.

The conversation explores Chris's journey through recovery, including his initial resistance to labels and programs. What makes this story particularly compelling is his honesty about the subtle whispers that preceded his decision to get sober—what he calls "guardian angel moments" where circumstances mysteriously intervened just as he was about to make destructive choices. One night at a Zen monastery, his car lights inexplicably failed as he contemplated driving to a liquor store, a small intervention that spoke volumes.

Perhaps most encouraging is Chris's experience finding community with other musicians who don't drink—a natural gravitation toward healthier environments that nurture rather than threaten his growth. His poetic description of sobriety as "a blinking neon light that never turns off, a glass of water balanced on my head, a good surf lesson, a clear mind" captures the vigilance, responsibility, self-care, and clarity that come with the journey.

Want to experience the musical results of this transformation? Check out Chris Haugen's compositions on Spotify or catch him performing at Imagine Fest on Orcas Island. His journey reminds us that sometimes our greatest creative breakthroughs happen not when we dull our senses, but when we sharpen them through clarity and presence.

• Chris Haugen Website
• Chris Haugen on Spotify
• Chris Haugen on YouTube
• YouTube Studio (you'll need to be logged in)
• Chris's Facebook post 

Other useful links from Brett:

• Sober Curious Consulting - Brett's Recovery Friendly Workplace consulting business.
• How Recovery Friendly is Your Workplace Quiz - 3-min quiz where you learn a lot.
• Brett's YouTube channel
• Washington Recovery Alliance - building the capacity of the recovery community to advance substance use recovery and mental health wellness by catalyzing public understanding and shaping public policy in Washington State.
• Recovery-Ready Workplace Toolkit - providing information, tools, and resources to help employers from all sectors—government, for-profit, non-profit, and not-for-profit—effectively prevent and respond to substance misuse in the workforce from the Department of Labor.
• Data on SUD in the US (2024) - from SAMHSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration). Link to my favorite PDF for statistics.
• Understand Substance Use Disorders and Stigma (1 hour video) - learn about the brain science behind substance use disorders and ...

What if everything you thought you knew about addiction treatment was rooted in outdated thinking? After 26 years in the substance use disorder field, Jon Schlenske brings a perspective that challenges conventional wisdom while offering genuine hope for those struggling with addiction. Jon is Division Chief, Substance Use Disorders and Integrated Services at Comprehensive Healthcare in Yakima, WA.

This conversation traces Schlenske's journey from grassroots case management to his current role leading Integrated Care at Comprehensive Healthcare. His experience spans treating pregnant women with opioid addiction at Vanderbilt to developing hospital diversion and outreach programs.

At the heart of our discussion is a powerful reframing of addiction as a legitimate disease. Schlenske explains how it meets all the clinical criteria of other diseases – it has symptoms, it's progressive, it involves withdrawal, and it can be fatal. Yet society continues to treat those with addiction differently than people with cancer, diabetes, or heart disease. This stigma creates barriers to treatment while adding unnecessary shame.

The conversation doesn’t shy away from uncomfortable truths. With only one in eight people maintaining sobriety six months after treatment, Schlenske questions why outdated approaches remain dominant despite poor outcomes. He makes a compelling case for medication-assisted treatment, emphasizing how pharmaceuticals can provide the stability needed for deeper healing.

Perhaps most powerful is Schlenske's emphasis on hope and human connection. Instead of focusing solely on complex modalities, he suggests that recovery begins when we treat people with dignity and address the trauma that often precedes addiction. The path forward requires not just better treatment but a shift in how society views and supports those battling substance use disorders.

Whether you're struggling, supporting someone, or just trying to understand, this episode offers insights that could change how you think about recovery. Listen now to join the conversation about building more compassionate, effective paths to healing.

Comprehensive Healthcare
Jon Schlenske on LinkedIn

Other useful links from Brett:

• Sober Curious Consulting - Brett's Recovery Friendly Workplace consulting business.
• How Recovery Friendly is Your Workplace Quiz - 3-min quiz where you learn a lot.
• Brett's YouTube channel
• Washington Recovery Alliance - building the capacity of the recovery community to advance substance use recovery and mental health wellness by catalyzing public understanding and shaping public policy in Washington State.
• Recovery-Ready Workplace Toolkit - providing information, tools, and resources to help employers from all sectors—government, for-profit, non-profit, and not-for-profit—effectively prevent and respond to substance misuse in the workforce from the Department of Labor.
• Data on SUD in the US (2024) - from SAMHSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration). Link to my favorite PDF for statistics.
• Understand Substance Use Disorders and Stigma (1 hour video) - learn about the brain science behind substance use disorders and ...

This eye-opening conversation with HR executive Michael Erisman discusses some barriers that can prevent meaningful support for employees in or seeking recovery.

Michael shares his powerful personal journey, beginning with a sobering realization on his 25th birthday that changed everything: "If you don't make radical changes, you won't see 30." Since that moment in 1989, his path through recovery has intertwined with a distinguished HR career spanning companies like Microsoft and GE across 160 countries.

Together we explore why companies default to the "box-checking exercise" of Employee Assistance Programs rather than creating truly recovery-friendly cultures. Michael challenges the common objections—fears of litigation, concerns about maintaining workplace social events, and uncertainties about appropriate boundaries—while offering practical wisdom for organizations ready to evolve.

What makes this conversation particularly valuable is how it bridges personal experience with professional expertise. Michael articulates what he calls "the air, food and water" of effective management: clear goals, feedback loops, and creating environments where people feel valued. These fundamentals create the psychological safety necessary for employees to seek help when struggling with substance use issues.

The potential impact extends far beyond those currently in recovery. As Michael puts it, "On the other side of recovery are some of the most amazing employees you can ever possibly get." People who have walked through addiction and recovery often bring extraordinary gratitude, honesty, and perspective to their work—qualities any employer should value.

Ready to explore how recovery-friendly practices could transform your workplace? This conversation provides both inspiration and practical next steps for creating environments where recovery is visible, normalized, and celebrated.

Other useful links from Brett:

• Sober Curious Consulting - Brett's Recovery Friendly Workplace consulting business.
• How Recovery Friendly is Your Workplace Quiz - 3-min quiz where you learn a lot.
• Brett's YouTube channel
• Washington Recovery Alliance - building the capacity of the recovery community to advance substance use recovery and mental health wellness by catalyzing public understanding and shaping public policy in Washington State.
• Recovery-Ready Workplace Toolkit - providing information, tools, and resources to help employers from all sectors—government, for-profit, non-profit, and not-for-profit—effectively prevent and respond to substance misuse in the workforce from the Department of Labor.
• Data on SUD in the US (2024) - from SAMHSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration). Link to my favorite PDF for statistics.
• Understand Substance Use Disorders and Stigma (1 hour video) - learn about the brain science behind substance use disorders and ...

Dr. Kevin McCauley shares his journey from Navy physician to addiction recovery advocate, offering profound insights on the neuroscience of addiction and various pathways to healing.

• Creator of the documentary "Pleasure Unwoven" about the brain science of addiction
• Became addicted to opioids after surgery while serving in the Navy
• Court-martialed and spent time in Leavenworth, where AA meetings provided crucial support
• Now works as a senior fellow at Meadows Behavioral Health Care
• Discusses evolving views on whether addiction is best understood as a brain disease
• Explains craving as the central symptom that matters most to those experiencing addiction
• Emphasizes the importance of connection in recovery while respecting different recovery pathways
• Shares personal struggles with sugar addiction and its neurobiological similarities to substance addiction
• Provides evidence-based information about cannabis addiction and weighs-in on "California sober"
• Identifies connection as essential for sustainable recovery

Dr. McCauley's videos online:

• Pleasure Unwoven 2010 (Neuroscience of Addiction): https://vimeo.com/347595250/df4ede31f7
• Memo to Self 2015 (Recovery Management): https://vimeo.com/347596435/deaf56bbea

Dr. McCauley also shared some podcast links with me about cannabis that you might want to follow to learn more:

• Curbsiders Internal Medicine - Cannabis Use Disorder: https://thecurbsiders.com/addiction-medicine-podcast/9-a-joint-conversation-cannabis-use-disorder-with-dr-deepika-slawek
• Addiction Files - Cannabis: Not Your Mother’s Marijuana: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-addiction-files-an-addiction-medicine-podcast/id1559434318?i=1000525527985
• Addiction Medicine Journal Club - Cannabis and CV Outcomes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/addiction-medicine-journal-club/id1632894325?i=1000660775957

Other useful links from Brett:

• Sober Curious Consulting - Brett's Recovery Friendly Workplace consulting business.
• How Recovery Friendly is Your Workplace Quiz - 3-min quiz where you learn a lot.
• Brett's YouTube channel
• Washington Recovery Alliance - building the capacity of the recovery community to advance substance use recovery and mental health wellness by catalyzing public understanding and shaping public policy in Washington State.
• Recovery-Ready Workplace Toolkit - providing information, tools, and resources to help employers from all sectors—government, for-profit, non-profit, and not-for-profit—effectively prevent and respond to substance misuse in the workforce from the Department of Labor.
• Data on SUD in the US (2024) - from SAMHSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration). Link to my favorite PDF for statistics.
• Understand Substance Use Disorders and Stigma (1 hour video) - learn about the brain science behind substance use disorders and ...

Join us in an enlightening conversation that delves into the power of sharing recovery stories and breaking down stigma. In this episode, Brett Lovins sits down with accomplished filmmaker Greg Williams, who shares his insights on transforming personal narratives into powerful advocacy tools. With a focus on person-first language, Brett and Greg explore how reframing the narrative around addiction can create a more compassionate understanding within society.

Greg emphasizes the importance of community and the hope that comes from openly sharing one’s recovery journey. As they discuss the profound impact of Williams’ documentary "The Anonymous People," listeners will learn how visibility in recovery can inspire others and encourage a supportive atmosphere. The episode serves as a powerful reminder that recovery is not just about personal healing, but also about rewriting the societal conversation around addiction.

By engaging with these pivotal themes, our conversation challenges listeners to move past shame and embrace the beauty of their stories, encouraging collective healing and understanding. Dive into this engaging dialogue and discover how you can contribute to reshaping the narrative of recovery! Remember to subscribe, share, and leave a review to spark more conversations around this important topic.

Greg Williams films (available to rent on many streaming platforms):
The Anonymous People
Generation Found
Tipping the Pain Scale

Trailers:
The Anonymous People
Generation Found
Tipping the Pain Scale

Other useful links from Brett:

• Sober Curious Consulting - Brett's Recovery Friendly Workplace consulting business.
• How Recovery Friendly is Your Workplace Quiz - 3-min quiz where you learn a lot.
• Brett's YouTube channel
• Washington Recovery Alliance - building the capacity of the recovery community to advance substance use recovery and mental health wellness by catalyzing public understanding and shaping public policy in Washington State.
• Recovery-Ready Workplace Toolkit - providing information, tools, and resources to help employers from all sectors—government, for-profit, non-profit, and not-for-profit—effectively prevent and respond to substance misuse in the workforce from the Department of Labor.
• Data on SUD in the US (2024) - from SAMHSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration). Link to my favorite PDF for statistics.
• Understand Substance Use Disorders and Stigma (1 hour video) - learn about the brain science behind substance use disorders and ...

Rich Jones, a remarkable speaker I met at a SAMHSA event, joins me to share his transformative journey from the world of HR to becoming a therapist and certified interventionist in the recovery space. Rich opens up about his long-term recovery from opioid and alcohol use disorders, highlighting the personal and professional hurdles he faced during this pivotal shift. Our conversation sheds light on the stigma surrounding addiction and the courage it takes to embrace openness, even when societal norms might suggest otherwise.

Labels like "alcoholic" and "addict" can often feel like barriers rather than bridges on the path to recovery. Together, Rich and I unpack these terms, discussing the evolving nature of recovery and the importance of personal comfort levels. By sharing our stories, we aim to reassure those hesitant about starting their recovery journey, emphasizing that there are multiple pathways to success. We challenge common stereotypes about addiction, advocating for a more inclusive and understanding approach that celebrates diverse recovery experiences.

The episode also touches on the critical role families play in addiction recovery, exploring models like the Arise intervention that prioritize transparency and family involvement. Rich shares his insights into the psychological aspects of addiction and the spectrum of substance use disorders, underscoring the need for self-awareness and professional support. We also tackle the often-overlooked issue of workplace stress and substance use, highlighting the necessity of supportive environments that engage individuals proactively. This episode is a heartfelt exploration of recovery, offering insights and support for anyone touched by addiction.

Links from this episode with Rich Jones:
YouTurn Health
BuildWell Health
Sage's Army
ARISE Intervention info
Faces & Voices of Recovery

Other useful links from Brett:

• Sober Curious Consulting - Brett's Recovery Friendly Workplace consulting business.
• How Recovery Friendly is Your Workplace Quiz - 3-min quiz where you learn a lot.
• Brett's YouTube channel
• Washington Recovery Alliance - building the capacity of the recovery community to advance substance use recovery and mental health wellness by catalyzing public understanding and shaping public policy in Washington State.
• Recovery-Ready Workplace Toolkit - providing information, tools, and resources to help employers from all sectors—government, for-profit, non-profit, and not-for-profit—effectively prevent and respond to substance misuse in the workforce from the Department of Labor.
• Data on SUD in the US (2024) - from SAMHSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration). Link to my favorite PDF for statistics.
• Understand Substance Use Disorders and Stigma (1 hour video) - learn about the brain science behind substance use disorders and ...

Ryan Hampton, a beacon of hope and a leading voice in recovery advocacy, takes us through his transformative journey from the depths of heroin addiction to founding Mobilize Recovery. His story is one of resilience and a relentless commitment to change, illustrating how personal battles can fuel a larger mission. Through our conversation, Ryan shares how his experiences with homelessness and near-death encounters propelled him to mobilize 70,000 advocates across the U.S., aiming to break down societal stigmas and reshape the policies surrounding drug addiction.

We also dive into the pressing need for systemic healthcare reform, particularly concerning substance use disorders. Ryan discusses the barriers imposed by insurance companies and healthcare systems that make recovery seem more like a stroke of luck than a right. He emphasizes the importance of shifting perspectives to treat fentanyl and other substance issues as public health crises, advocating for comprehensive care that includes treatment, housing, and employment opportunities.

Brett and Ryan explore the power of community and the urgent need to create Recovery Friendly Workplaces (RFW). They reflect on the collective effort required to foster inclusive environments and support systems. As we set our sights on the future, the conversation leaves us inspired by the possibilities of continued advocacy and the role we can all play in supporting this vital movement.

Links:
Ryan Hampton's Website
Mobilize Recovery
Ryan's books on Amazon
Ryan's media appearances - Fox, MSNBC, BBC, etc.

Other useful links from Brett:

• Sober Curious Consulting - Brett's Recovery Friendly Workplace consulting business.
• How Recovery Friendly is Your Workplace Quiz - 3-min quiz where you learn a lot.
• Brett's YouTube channel
• Washington Recovery Alliance - building the capacity of the recovery community to advance substance use recovery and mental health wellness by catalyzing public understanding and shaping public policy in Washington State.
• Recovery-Ready Workplace Toolkit - providing information, tools, and resources to help employers from all sectors—government, for-profit, non-profit, and not-for-profit—effectively prevent and respond to substance misuse in the workforce from the Department of Labor.
• Data on SUD in the US (2024) - from SAMHSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration). Link to my favorite PDF for statistics.
• Understand Substance Use Disorders and Stigma (1 hour video) - learn about the brain science behind substance use disorders and ...

Can curiosity transform your relationship with alcohol? Join us as we explore this question with Nell Hurley, a notable figure in the addiction recovery space with over 26 years of sobriety. Together, we navigate the evolving landscape of sobriety and the "sober curious" movement, delving into the intriguing concept of "gray area drinking." Nell shares her wealth of experience in guiding individuals through recovery journeys that venture outside traditional treatment settings, emphasizing the importance of curiosity in fostering self-reflection and challenging societal norms around alcohol.

Our conversation dives into the heart of societal pressures to drink and the gradual cultural shift towards more mindful consumption in places like the UK and the US. We recount how our paths crossed at a wellness summit and how this serendipitous meeting led to the birth of our new venture, Sober Curious Consulting. Both of us remain committed to creating recovery-friendly environments and encouraging a non-judgmental exploration of personal lifestyles. Through personal stories and reflections, we highlight the empowering potential of re-evaluating one's drinking habits, whether through a movement like Dry January or through everyday choices.

As we launch our Dry January 2025 Program, we invite you to join a supportive, stigma-free community that makes the journey of abstaining from alcohol for a month, both enriching and enjoyable. Our program offers a space to connect through webinars, weekly gatherings, and an online community. Nell and I share our excitement about offering early bird discounts for those eager to embark on this transformative month of curiosity and self-discovery. Whether you're sober curious or simply looking to reassess your relationship with alcohol, this episode offers insights and support to guide you on your journey.

Other useful links from Brett:

• Sober Curious Consulting - Brett's Recovery Friendly Workplace consulting business.
• How Recovery Friendly is Your Workplace Quiz - 3-min quiz where you learn a lot.
• Brett's YouTube channel
• Washington Recovery Alliance - building the capacity of the recovery community to advance substance use recovery and mental health wellness by catalyzing public understanding and shaping public policy in Washington State.
• Recovery-Ready Workplace Toolkit - providing information, tools, and resources to help employers from all sectors—government, for-profit, non-profit, and not-for-profit—effectively prevent and respond to substance misuse in the workforce from the Department of Labor.
• Data on SUD in the US (2024) - from SAMHSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration). Link to my favorite PDF for statistics.
• Understand Substance Use Disorders and Stigma (1 hour video) - learn about the brain science behind substance use disorders and ...