Katie Schlott spent 20 years in innovation — running experiments, iterating, testing what works. So when she realized her professional network had quietly gone dark during the years she was deep in parenting, she did what any good strategist would do: she designed an experiment.

Day raves. Pop-up dinners in strangers’ homes. Perfume making fundraisers. Online Slack communities. Wonder Woman dinners. A volunteer board for women’s health research. She tried all of it, wrote about it for Inc Magazine, and then came back on AND/BOTH to talk through what she actually found.

The conversation covers the new rules of networking, why smaller rooms build realer connections, how parents in particular need to rethink the whole model, and what happens when you decide to build the community you can’t find. Plus Costco. A lot about Costco.

In This Episode

1. Why Katie ran a networking experiment — and what the traditional model was missing
2. The day rave, the pop-up dinner, the perfume fundraiser — what each one taught her
3. The Old Girls Club and Society of Working Mothers — online communities built on realness over résumés
4. Wonder Woman Dinners — strangers become friends in under two hours, and why it works
5. “Tell me something Google doesn’t know about you” — the opener that changes everything
6. Why funny is sticky and vulnerability gets built through shared experiences
7. If you can’t find what you’re looking for, build it — Brilliant Failures, Brilliant Mothers, Mama Palooza
8. Joining a volunteer board for women’s health research and what that unlocked
9. Why big conferences are often the least efficient use of a parent’s limited time and energy
10. Managing your network based on energy levels, not just calendar availability
11. What happens when you let your network go dark — and how to rebuild authentically
12. How to be direct about what you’re looking for instead of hoping the room delivers it
13. Networking with teenagers at home — and the season-by-season nature of connection

Quotes From This Episode

“If you think you’re an N of one, you’re actually an N of 100. Just start it.”

— Katie Schlott

“Funny is sticky. Vulnerability is created in moments where you’re actually having fun with people.”

— Katie Schlott

“I want to join communities that thrive on real life, not résumés.”

— Katie Schlott

“Every single founder said: just pick one thing, just start with one. Don’t be overwhelmed, just get the ball rolling.”

— Katie Schlott

“The smaller rooms are the best. Everything that follows from a small room conversation — the email, the introduction, the follow-up — none of that ever comes from a big conference.”

— Ashley Blackington

Resources & Links

Connect with Katie on LinkedIn

Read Katie's lnc. Magazine article on "The New Rules of Networking"

Check out her consultancy and read ALL her articles (Fast Company, Inc and Business Insider)

Buy the magical Costco totes that she uses to keep her cart contents tight!

Connect with Ashley:

Website: https://www.ashleyblackington.com

Podcast website: https://www.andbothpodcast.com/

Dovetail® App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dovetail-app/id6744341822

Instagram: @mydovetail.app

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyblackington/

Kristin Smith has spent 20 years helping new families survive the hardest weeks of their lives. As the founder of Well Supported Family — a team of over 200 postpartum doulas, newborn care specialists, and nurses operating across 12 states — she’s built the modern village that most families desperately need and almost nobody has access to.

Now she has a two-month-old of her own. An adopted son she got the call about while she was standing at an elephant orphanage in Kenya. He came home through the NICU. And for the first time, she’s on the parent side of everything she’s built — learning what it feels like to need the very support she’s spent two decades providing.

In this conversation, Ashley and Kristin talk about the postpartum care gap, the different paths to parenthood, what actually happens in those first nights home, and what it looks like to practice exactly what you preach.

In This Episode

1. How Kristin started — a postpartum doula at 19 after having her daughter with almost no support
2. Growing Well Supported Family from a private practice to a team of 200+ across 12 states
3. Why postpartum care in the US is so inadequate — and what it would take to fix it
4. What in-home newborn care actually looks like and how it’s tailored to each family
5. The RV team, the travel team, and how they reach families in almost every state
6. NICU babies coming home — the adjustment nobody prepares families for
7. The call from Kenya — a failed adoption, four days into a trip, at an elephant orphanage
8. Three rounds of IVF and what that experience gave her as a provider
9. Being on the parent side for the first time — and convincing herself her own baby was broken
10. Why adopted babies don’t get the postpartum support they need — and the rude awakening that followed
11. The philosophy at the heart of her work: build children into your life, not your life around them
12. What’s next — expanding into mental health support and more states

Quotes From This Episode

“You can have a wound inside your body the size of a basketball, and it was attached. Just because nobody sees it doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt.”

— Kristin Smith

“I don’t believe parents should build their life around children. I believe they should build children into their lives.”

— Kristin Smith

“I was at the elephant orphanage when this baby was born. That feels so symbolic.”

— Kristin Smith

“I was convinced he was broken. I’m a professional. What is he doing? And then someone said, he was four weeks early. You’re expecting a lot right now.”

— Kristin Smith

“It’s not just giving them the break they need — it’s helping them learn to build a life with their child.”

— Kristin Smith

Resources & Links

1. Well Supported Family: wellsupportedfamily.com
2. Baby Care Classes: available via wellsupportedfamily.com
3. Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, YouTube: @wellsupportedfamily
4. Find Kristin on Facebook: Kristin Lee

Connect with Ashley:

Website: https://www.ashleyblackington.com

Podcast website: https://www.andbothpodcast.com/

Dovetail® App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dovetail-app/id6744341822

Instagram: @mydovetail.care

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyblackington/

Sam Kelly was making a Saturday morning to-do list for her kids on a Friday night when it hit her. She’d just spent a year teaching her husband not to rely on her to notice what needed to be done — and here she was, about to hand her children the same broken script. She dropped the marker, went to bed, and the next morning introduced her family to Notice and Do.

Two years later she has a book deal with Harper Collins, a viral online platform, and a method that’s helping burned-out mothers around the world finally get their families off the sidelines. In this conversation, Ashley and Sam talk about the mental load, the burnout loop, intergenerational cycle-breaking, and what it actually looks like to teach kids — including neurodivergent ones — to be a real part of the family team.

In This Episode

1. The Friday night moment that sparked the Notice and Do method
2. What Notice and Do actually is — and how it differs from a chore chart
3. The Big Three — Sam’s daily structure for kids of any age or ability
4. The learning ladder — why perfection isn’t the point and every rung counts
5. Teaching neurodivergent kids to notice — and why it works even when nothing else has
6. The five cycle-breaking conversations — age-appropriate language for mental load, burnout, and equity
7. Why rage cleaning is never really about the messy kitchen
8. The burnout loop — quarterly mommy meltdowns, putting your head down, and repeat
9. Why self care isn’t enough — and why supportive care needs to be the new conversation
10. What it’s like to teach an adult partner versus teaching kids — and why those are completely separate things
11. The full circle moment: how Notice and Do liberated Sam enough to write the book
12. How to approach this when your kids just don’t care — and why that’s actually fine
13. What she hopes the next generation looks like when this work takes hold

Quotes From This Episode

“Mental load is a whole family issue. Whole family issues require whole family solutions.”

— Sam Kelly

“Supportive care needs to be the new self care. Who is caring for the mom?”

— Sam Kelly

“It’s not about the messy kitchen. It’s about what that mess is triggering underneath — feeling taken for granted, feeling lonely, feeling unseen.”

— Sam Kelly

“This pain ends with us. This ends here and now.”

— Sam Kelly

“Notice and Do liberated me enough to create this book. And if it can liberate me at that level, it can liberate anyone.”

— Sam Kelly

Resources & Links

1. Notice and Do (Harper Collins, pre-order now)
2. Instagram: @samkelly_world
3. Audio course: available via Sam’s Instagram link
4. Request at your local library and indie bookstore

Connect with Ashley:

Website: https://www.ashleyblackington.com

Podcast website: https://www.andbothpodcast.com/

Dovetail® App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dovetail-app/id6744341822

Instagram: @mydovetail.app

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyblackington/

Amanda Timonere spent a decade at the top of the clinical world — chief clinical officer of a multi-state mental health and substance use treatment center — before becoming a mom and realizing she wanted to do something different. Not because she couldn’t do the job. Because she was missing time with her kids and because she saw a gap in care for mothers that she was uniquely positioned to fill.

Now she runs Zenful Mamas, a private practice and coaching platform built around perinatal mental health and the concept of matrescence — the neurological and psychological transformation of becoming a mother. In this conversation, Ashley and Amanda talk about what that transformation actually looks like, why so many women arrive at motherhood completely unprepared for it, and what it means to break the cycle of the blueprint you didn’t know you were carrying.

In This Episode

1. What matrescence is — and why most mothers have never heard of it
2. The neurological reality of what happens to our brains when we become parents
3. How Amanda’s own anxiety through pregnancy and postpartum led her to this work
4. Walking into motherhood with a generational blueprint you don’t know exists
5. Why women — especially high-achieving women — resist asking for help
6. The difference between therapy and coaching, and how Amanda decides which one a client actually needs
7. Her 12-week program “Rewrite Before You Repeat” — and what it’s designed to do
8. Navigating the relationship between new parents and grandparents when parenting philosophies clash
9. Why the women who appear to have it all together either have a lot of help or aren’t telling the whole story
10. The AI dependency conversation — what it means for mental health support and clinical training
11. Solo parenting a two and four year old while running a practice — what that actually looks like
12. Her vision for Zenful Mamas as a hub for maternal mental health — therapy, coaching, breathwork, Reiki, and more

Quotes From This Episode

“We’re walking into motherhood with a blueprint that we don’t even know exists.”

— Amanda Timonere

“It’s not a matter of weak or strong. There is a neurological change in our mind that’s happening and it’s so far beyond our control.”

— Amanda Timonere

“Preventative care is the best care.”

— Amanda Timonere

“Having kids is like holding up a mirror to yourself. It’s like everything is exposed and we’re figuring it out.”

— Amanda Timonere

“There’s no prize at the end of the day for doing it all perfectly. There’s never going to be a medal ceremony and someone will be the valedictorian of motherhood.”

— Ashley Blackington

Resources & Links

1. Zenful Mamas: zenfulMamas.com
2. Instagram: @zenful_mamas
3. Zenful Mamas Inner Circle — low-commitment monthly groups for nervous system regulation
4. 12-week coaching program: Rewrite Before You Repeat

Connect with Ashley:

Website: https://www.ashleyblackington.com

Podcast website: https://www.andbothpodcast.com/

Dovetail® App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dovetail-app/id6744341822

Instagram: @mydovetail.app

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyblackington/

Betsy Cornwell saw a gap — artist residencies she qualified for but couldn’t access as a single parent — and instead of waiting for someone else to fill it, she built something herself. She crowdfunded the purchase of a historic 1906 knitting factory on the west coast of Ireland, turned it into a residency and retreat space for other single parent artists, and then wrote a memoir about how all of it happened.

In this conversation, Ashley and Betsy talk about coming out of an abusive marriage, what it means to write honestly about hard things as a mother, the gap between the writing life you imagine and the one you actually have, and why the accomplishment Betsy is most proud of isn’t her New York Times bestseller or her university teaching post — it’s being a single mom.

In This Episode

1. How Betsy became a single parent and why she found herself proud to be one almost immediately
2. The gap she identified — artist residencies she qualified for but couldn’t access because of caretaking logistics and finances
3. The castle that didn’t work out, the pivot to the knitting factory, and why this place ended up being a better fit
4. What crowdfunding a house actually looked like — including the 2am moment when everything came down to the wire
5. Why she gives residency recipients a cash childcare stipend rather than on-site childcare — and what that trust means
6. The Smith College Friday Tea tradition and the online community that supported her through the most isolated stretch of her life
7. Writing about emotional abuse — “he never hit me” — and why that makes some readers deeply uncomfortable
8. The ethics of writing a memoir as a parent: how she handled writing about her son and his father
9. Why mother’s silence is not the solution to the complexity of women telling their stories
10. Writing Ring of Salt on the edge of a bathtub — and what that says about the art you can make in the life you have
11. Raising her son in an Irish-speaking region of Ireland — and what she’s observed about life in Ireland versus the US
12. The “keep it alive” approach to creative practice for caregivers
13. What she hopes happens when someone comes to the Old Knitting Factory and gets to breathe for the first time

Quotes From This Episode

“The accomplishment I’m most proud of is being a single mom. And I think that will always be true.”

— Betsy Cornwell

“I don’t think the brunt of all that complexity should be borne through the simple solution of mother’s silence. That is not right to me.”

— Betsy Cornwell

“The book that I could write is the book that I could write in the life that I have.”

— Betsy Cornwell

“Have you kept your art practice alive today? It’s just about keeping it alive.”

— Betsy Cornwell

“We’re kicking the bar down the road and wondering why our toe hurts.”

— Ashley Blackington

Resources & Links

1. Ring of Salt (memoir): available at any bookstore or via oldknittingfactory.com
2. Old Knitting Factory: oldknittingfactory.com
3. Support the residency on Patreon
4. All books including YA novels: betsycornwell.com
5. Friday Tea on Substack: find Betsy on Substack

Connect with Ashley:

Website: https://www.ashleyblackington.com

Podcast website: https://www.andbothpodcast.com/

Dovetail® App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dovetail-app/id6744341822

Instagram: @mydovetail.app

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyblackington/

Laura Navaquin spent nearly 20 years in corporate America before one Wednesday meeting pushed her over the edge. Her husband said “just quit, we’ll figure it out.” She did, and then spent the next few weeks wondering if she’d made a catastrophic mistake before realizing she was exactly where she was supposed to be.

Today Laura and her husband run four businesses rooted in real estate — a consulting practice, a wholesaling company, a framework for real estate agents called Beyond Commissions, and a contracting business — while raising four kids, three of whom are three and under. In this conversation, Ashley and Laura talk about the messy, non-linear reality of building something from scratch while staying present for the people who matter most.

In This Episode

1. Why Laura left corporate after 20 years — it wasn’t the job, it was losing control of her own schedule
2. The Wednesday she quit on impulse and the fear that followed immediately after
3. How she and her husband grew their real estate portfolio from four doors to twenty-one in under two years
4. Why they scaled too fast, stepped back, and what that taught them about sustainable growth
5. Creative financing — what it is and how it changed what was possible for them
6. How four businesses became interconnected rather than overwhelming
7. Beyond Commissions — the real estate agent framework they spent 2025 building and launched in January
8. The entrepreneur catch-22: needing help, hiring help, and ending up doing it yourself anyway
9. How they navigate four kids and four businesses — shared office, shared calendar, shared flexibility
10. Getting kids involved in the business in age-appropriate ways
11. Why the nine-year-old’s salsa company ambitions are being taken seriously
12. The shift in how we talk about money, investing, and entrepreneurship with the next generation
13. Where Laura sees things going — development, fundraising, and building on a larger scale

Quotes From This Episode

“Some weeks I take off entirely, or I work weekends and late nights — but I’m still able to work that schedule around my life.”

— Laura Navaquin

“Being able to have that flexibility and creativity with the way you do things allows you to pivot and still keep that business alive.”

— Laura Navaquin

“When you pressure test the system, then you start to pivot. Then you start to say, what is a reasonable ask for me?”

— Ashley Blackington

“I never saw myself in real estate in any capacity — but to see where we are nowadays and all the future plans that we’re making. It’s somewhat comical, but in all the best ways.”

— Laura Navaquin

“Non-traditional is becoming traditional.”

— Ashley Blackington

Find Laura

1. LinkedIn & Instagram: @LauraNavaquin
2. Website: lauranavaqquin.com
3. Beyond Commissions: beyondcommissions.io

Connect with Ashley:

Website: https://www.ashleyblackington.com

Podcast website: https://www.andbothpodcast.com/

Dovetail® App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dovetail-app/id6744341822

Instagram: @mydovetail.app

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyblackington/

Everyone dies. And yet most of us have no idea what dying actually looks like — because we’ve been shielded from it, and because everything we’ve seen on screen is wrong.

Jade Adgate is a death doula, educator, and founder of Farewell Fellowship in Middle Tennessee. She’s spent years walking alongside families at end of life — not as a tour guide, but as a fellow traveler — and she’s on a mission to normalize the experience of death so that fewer people have to face it completely unprepared.

In this conversation, Ashley and Jade cover a lot of ground: the real dying process versus what we expect it to be, how we live is how we die, the role of control in caregiving, what those extended months of treatment are actually buying us, and what it looks like to bring sacredness back to the end of life — even when it’s messy and ordinary and nothing like the movies.

In This Episode

1. How Jade got into death doula work- from Hurricane Katrina, to moving in with her great-aunt Sis, to hospice volunteering
2. The parallel between parenting teenagers and supporting families at end of life, both require learning to hold while letting go
3. How death became less ordinary and why that’s a tragedy
4. The idea that modern medicine has learned to extend dying, not just life
5. Quality versus quantity: what people think they’re buying with treatment versus what they’re actually getting
6. Roxanne: the client who tried to control every detail of her own death, and what Jade learned from her
7. Adeline: a pediatric client who died just before her fifth birthday, and the home funeral that gave her family something different
8. Why 90% of people end up in a hospital bed at end of life and why that matters to know
9. What actually happens in the hours after someone dies and why slowing down is the most important thing a death doula does
10. The gap between the Forrest Gump death scene and reality
11. How Jade protects herself in this work as a self-described recovering codependent eldest daughter
12. The future of death doula work, bringing these tools into communities and families who can’t access a professional

Quotes From This Episode

“How we live is how we die. Who we are is who we are when we’re dying.”

— Jade Adgate

“If we are going to buy more time, can we know at the beginning that this is the time we’re buying? It starts right now — instead of we’re going to do all these treatments and then start our time when you’re feeling better.”

— Jade Adgate

“Death is the teacher. As much as I think I might know, it is totally different for every single person.”

— Jade Adgate

“This is not wisdom that needs a gatekeeper. This is all of our collective wisdom.”

— Jade Adgate

“There are no monsters around corners if you know where all the corners are.”

— Ashley Blackington

Resources & Links

1. Farewell Fellowship (in-person doula services, education & library): farewellfellowship.com
2. Instagram: Farewell Library
3. Book referenced: Gone From My Sight — Barbara Carnes
4. Show referenced: Dying for Sex (Hulu)

Connect with Ashley:

Website: https://www.ashleyblackington.com

Podcast website: https://www.andbothpodcast.com/

Dovetail® App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dovetail-app/id6744341822

Instagram: @mydovetail.app

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyblackington/

Libby Ward built one of the internet’s most recognizable platforms for honest motherhood, and she did it by saying the things most moms were too afraid to say out loud. Now she’s put it all in a book: Motherhood: On Losing My Mind and Finding Myself, published by Crown.

In this co-hosted episode, Ashley and Erin sit down with Libby to trace the full arc, from the small town church community where motherhood was put on a pedestal, to the postpartum rage that finally broke her open, to the sociology class that reframed everything, to going viral on TikTok during a pandemic, to writing a book for Crown that she nearly wrote as someone else entirely.

It’s a conversation about what happens when women stop doing everything for everyone else and start asking who they actually are, and why that question so often doesn’t get asked until something breaks.

In This Episode

1. Who Libby was before TikTok- a 26-year-old in a conservative church community trying to be every kind of mom at once
2. How her second child’s higher needs broke the plate-spinning and sent her to therapy for the first time
3. Why her postpartum depression showed up as rage, not sadness and why that made it harder to recognize and name
4. The shame spiral of “what is wrong with me” and the therapy session that cracked it open
5. The sociology of sex and gender class that introduced her to the mental load, default parenting, and feminism
6. Finding TikTok during the pandemic and posting as a form of dissociation, not really believing anyone would find her
7. The moment she stopped making humor content and decided she didn’t want to joke about things that were crushing her soul
8. Going no contact with her mom and how that coincided with the book deal coming through
9. The writing process: imposter syndrome, a pivot away from research-heavy writing, and learning to trust her own storytelling
10. Why she didn’t lose herself in motherhood, she never found herself before it
11. Doing it guilty: why waiting to feel ready or unashamed means never changing anything
12. What “honest motherhood” actually means and why it starts internally, not out loud

Quotes From This Episode:

“I didn’t lose myself in motherhood. I actually never found myself or knew myself when I was younger. Motherhood was the catalyst to help me find the self I never knew before motherhood even began.”

— Libby Ward

“It’s not that I’m exhausted because I’m not enough. It’s that the load is too much for any one person. That shift is so important.”

— Libby Ward

“How do you get rid of the guilt and shame? You just do it guilty. You do it feeling a little bit ashamed. And then you’re retraining your brain — actually, we survived. Actually, it’s okay.”

— Libby Ward

“I am so tired of women being the butt end of jokes. I no longer want to joke about the things that are crushing my soul.”

— Libby Ward

“You deserve to be well just for the mere fact that you’re a person who deserves to be well. Your kids just happen to benefit from that.”

— Libby Ward

About the Book

Motherhood: On Losing My Mind and Finding Myself by Libby Ward is available now wherever books are sold — Amazon, Indigo, and most major retailers.

Find Libby

1. Website: libbyward.com
2. Instagram: @libbyward
3. TikTok: @libbywardofficial

Connect with Ashley:

Website: https://www.ashleyblackington.com

Podcast website: https://www.andbothpodcast.com/

Dovetail® App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dovetail-app/id6744341822

Instagram: @mydovetail.app

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyblackington/

What does it mean to break a cycle when you’re still inside it? Michelle Gibson is a psychotherapist, CEO of Gibson and Associates and the Nest Collective, and a mom of one, and she has spent her career helping people find language for experiences they were never taught to name.

In this conversation, Michelle and Ashley cover a lot of ground: childhood trauma and the path into psychotherapy, the complicated terrain of parent estrangement, why adverse childhood experiences are disproportionately common in entrepreneurs, and what it looks like to lead a business and a family, from a place of genuine self-connection rather than survival mode.

It’s an honest, warm, and unexpectedly funny conversation about doing the work while also just trying to get dinner on the table.

In This Episode

1. How Michelle’s childhood (alcoholism, trauma, adverse childhood experiences) led her to psychotherapy
2. The magnetic effect of finding language for what you’ve been through
3. Why social-emotional learning in schools is changing what middle school looks like for kids today
4. Reparenting yourself while parenting someone else — and the double labor that involves
5. The rise of estrangement from parents and what’s driving it
6. Michelle shares her own experience estranging from her father — and why having a daughter changed the calculation
7. Ashley shares her own experience with estrangement
8. Why entrepreneurs so often come from hard childhoods — grit as a survival response
9. The moment Michelle looked up from years of grind and realized she’d been in survival mode her whole life
10. What it means to lead from a heart-led place versus a fear-led one
11. The privilege of support — naming it honestly so other parents don’t compare their back end to someone else’s front end
12. “Your parents’ ceiling is your floor” — and how Michelle thinks about expanding that for her daughter

Resources & Links

1. Gibson and Associates: gibsoncounselling.ca
2. The Nest Collective: thenestcollective.ca
3. Email: [email protected] or [email protected]
4. Find Michelle on LinkedIn

Connect with Ashley:

Website: https://www.ashleyblackington.com

Podcast website: https://www.andbothpodcast.com/

Dovetail® App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dovetail-app/id6744341822

Instagram: @mydovetail.app

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyblackington/

What happens when two of the biggest life transitions collide at exactly the same time? For grief coach Sarah Kagan, that meant losing her mother at six months pregnant and learning to live through loss while preparing to bring a new life into the world.

Sarah is a mother to two young kids, a former corporate professional who walked away from her career to follow a calling, and someone who is building a platform to change the way we talk about grief, especially in the workplace.

In this conversation, Ashley and Sarah dig into what it really means to grieve in real time, why the pressure to “be strong” is one of the most isolating things we do to each other, and what it looks like to hold loss and love at the same time, without having to choose between them.

In This Episode

1. What it means to be a “motherless mother” and why grief hits differently once you’re a parent
2. The moment at her mother’s Shiva that taught Sarah everything about how we avoid grief
3. Why “you’re so brave” and “at least she’s not suffering” do more harm than good
4. The martyrdom trap — and how stepping out of it changed everything for Sarah
5. The statistic that 51% of people leave their jobs within a year of a major loss
6. How Sarah rebuilt her work life after leaving corporate — no 9-to-5, Wednesdays for arts and crafts, out by 4pm
7. Why grief needs a better spokesperson (and what menopause got right)
8. The problem with bereavement leave policies that tell you who you’re allowed to mourn
9. Ashley opens up about losing her father to suicide and the shame layered on top of certain kinds of loss
10. How to slow down after caregiving — and why your body will eventually make you
11. Sarah’s grief workbook and creative morning kits: where does the love go when someone dies?

Quotes From This Episode

“There’s so much pressure to cover up or perform or just show up and be like, yeah, I’m fine. But it is a big deal and you need someone else to validate that experience for you.” — Sarah Kagan

“Trying to put a period on something that’s an ellipsis.” — Sarah Kagan, on toxic positivity around grief

“No one helps you speed up. They just throw it at you and you do it." — Ashley Blackington

Connect with Sarah

Find Sarah on LinkedIn: Sarah Kagan

Website: keriahcoaching.com

Instagram: @griefcoachsarah

Connect with Ashley:

Website: https://www.ashleyblackington.com

Podcast website: https://www.andbothpodcast.com/

Dovetail® App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dovetail-app/id6744341822

Instagram: @mydovetail.app

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyblackington/