John welcomes Atlantic staff writer Anne Applebaum back to the show to discuss her new cover story in The Atlantic on the devastating civil war in Sudan. Applebaum—whose 2004 tome “Gulag: A History” won the 2004 Pulitzer Prize for general nonfiction and whose most recent book, “Autocracy, Inc.” comes out in paperback this month—explains how anarchy, greed, and nihilism have replaced the liberal world order in Sudan; the role that Donald Trump and Elon Musk played in the country’s downward spiral; and why the same forces are coming for the countries of the rich world next. She also lays out the evidence that Trump is bent on turning the U.S. into a bigger, badder, more authoritarian version of Viktor Orban’s Hungary.

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