As Told To

How much does ego play a role in the art and craft of a book collaborator?

That's a question at the heart of this conversation with #1 New York Times best-selling ghostwriter Rachel Holtzman, co-author of more than 60 books on topics ranging from wellness and spirituality, to cooking and entertaining, including collaborations with such celebrated personalities as Shaquille O'Neal, Alicia Silverstone, Robin Quivers, and Christine Quinn.

Prior to her work as a self-described "book doula," Rachel was an editor at Penguin Books and ELLE magazine, before a detour to culinary school and a short stint in the kitchen at New York's Gramercy Tavern helped to launch her career as an in-demand cookbook co-author and recipe tester and developer.

"We're climbing inside the minds or the lives of our clients in order to produce something that is really of them," she reflects, "while also leaving behind a pretty big footprint of our own, because it is of us as well. We're not ChatGPT."

Rachel joins us at a busy time on the collaboration front, as she celebrates the publication of four new titles this month—Tahini Baby, a collection of "veg-forward" Middle Eastern and Mediterranean-inspired recipes, written with television food personality Edin Grinshpan; The Wishbone Kitchen Cookbook, featuring seasonal recipes from celebrity chef and style curator Meredith Hayden; Living in Wisdom, a guide to peak living, from wellness educator Devi Brown; and, Playful by Design, a parenting primer on nurturing independent play, from Myriam Sandler, creator and founder of the Mothercould lifestyle platform.

Learn more about Rachel Holtzman:

• Website
• Instagram
• Books

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Adam Ross's second novel, Playworld, is one of the best-reviewed books of the year. A story "dipped in molten nostalgia and flecked with love and sadness," according to The Washington Post, it was hailed immediately upon publication by The Los Angeles Times as "extraordinary" and by The New York Times as "a gorgeous cat's cradle of a book."

He is also the author of a previous novel, Mr. Peanut, which was selected as one of the best books of the year by The New York Times, The New Yorker, and The Economist, and the story collection Ladies and Gentlemen, which featured a story entitled "In the Basement," a finalist for the BBC International Story Prize.

Adam has been the Mary Ellen von der Heyden fellow in fiction at the American Academy in Berlin, and a Hodder Fellow for Fiction at Princeton University. His non-fiction has appeared in The New York Times Book Review, The Daily Beast, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, and other publications.

Since 2017, he has been the editor of The Sewanee Review, the oldest, continuously published literary quarterly in the United States.

He joins us to discuss his remarkable new novel, and the collaborative aspects of his work as one of our most acclaimed editors and novelists.

Learn more about Adam Ross and the topics discussed in the episode:

• Adam Ross' Instagram
• Adam Ross' Facebook
• U.S. Center for Safesport
• Anthony Quinn's One Man Tango

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"Sometimes our own stories get snatched from us, hidden in darkness for years," writes podcast guest Salwa Emerson, "until it's time to reclaim them."

Salwa is well-known to publishers as an author, editor and ghostwriter, specializing in memoirs, thought-leadership books, and book proposals. To hear her clients tell it, she has a way of bringing those stories out of hiding and into the light. She has collaborated with world-renowned chefs, professional athletes, reality television personalities, Oscar-winning actors, and Pulitzer Prize winners. Before turning to ghostwriting, she worked on the other side of the desk, for publishers such as St. Martin's Press and DK Publishing.

Her most recent publication—The Conservative Environmentalist: Common Sense Solutions for a Sustainable Future, written with environmentalist Benji Backer—was hailed by former California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger prior to publication as "an essential read that shows how protecting our natural resources and advancing America's national interests are mutually reinforcing goals."

Join us as Salwa shares her thoughts on helping to find an author's "voice", the three clauses all ghostwriters should have in their contracts, and the best ways to engage with readers, fellow writers and potential clients.

Learn more about Salwa Emerson:

• Website
• LinkedIn

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"My job was to dance so well that it didn't matter who favored me or why."

That's a line from the compelling new memoir by world-renowned ballerina Joy Womack, "as told to" podcast guest Elizabeth Shockman. Together, in (dare we say it?) balletic prose, the two recount Womack's storied career as the first American woman to dance under contract for the Bolshoi Ballet Theater in Moscow.

"The dancers beside me were tired, pale after months of clouded winter skies," they write in Behind the Red Velvet Curtain: An American Ballerina in Russia. "They bent and bowed, their bodies corded with muscle, like sallow stalagmites that had mushroomed off the floor of a cave."

Womack's story offers a first-hand glimpse of the cutthroat world of ballet, complete with acts of violence and intrigue, tales of eating disorders and body shaming, and profiles of legendary Bolshoi coaches who encouraged obsessive devotion and imposed their uncompromising standards on their young charges. And yet beneath the ugliness of graft and competition, the author's love of dance and her appreciation for the place ballet holds in Russian culture fairly leap off the page, as she reflects on the intersection of art and politics and exposes the shadowy underbelly of the world of professional ballet.

First-time collaborator Elizabeth Shockman is a public radio journalist based in Minnesota. Her work has been featured on National Public Radio, Public Radio International, Minnesota Public Radio, and the BBC. She has previously written for Reuters, The Moscow Times, and other publications. She first met Joy Womack on assignment for Reuters in Moscow and spent over a dozen years collaborating with her on this book.

(Yes, Elizabeth agrees, that's a very long time to work on one project, but as she shares in this episode of As Told To: The Ghostwriting Podcast, it sometimes happens that life and career take center stage, both for an author and her subject, as memoir waits in the wings.)

Learn more about Elizabeth Shockman:

• Instagram
• Twitter
• BlueSky
• Joy Womack Instagram
• Joy Womack Facebook

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David Peisner is a freelance journalist and ghostwriter/collaborator based in Atlanta. His work has appeared in the New York Times, Rolling Stone, New York, Esquire, Playboy, and other publications. His first book collaboration—with "Steve-O," the legendary co-star of the legendarily out there MTV reality series "Jackass"—grew out of a magazine assignment, taking Peisner on a sidelong career turn he hadn't anticipated.

"If you are only going to buy one book this year about an alcoholic, self-abusive, vegan, pyromaniac ex-circus clown with a talent for vomiting on command and stapling his scrotum to his leg, make sure this is the one," he wrote upon the book's publication. That book, Professional Idiot, became a New York Times best-seller, and led to a follow-up title, A Hard Kick in the Nuts, and a string of ghostwriting projects that helped to supplement Peisner's income as a freelance newspaper and magazine writer.

Curiously, those two Steve-O books made headlines in December 2024, when they surfaced on the Goodreads account of suspected "CEO Killer" Luigi Mangione, charged with the murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson—a connection that put Peisner's work in an unexpected sliver of spotlight. It also brought his collaborative work to the attention of the similarly-named host of this here podcast, resulting in this conversation.

Join us for a reflection on what it takes to build a career as a freelance journalist, and how to walk the fine line between writing about a celebrity subject and writing for a celebrity subject.

Learn more about David Peisner:

• Website
• BlueSky
• Twitter
• Threads
• Homey Don't Play That! – The Story of In Living Color and the Black Comedy Revolution
• "Devil With a Cause" (05/19/24 Rolling Stone profile of Kid Rock)

Please support the sponsors who support our show:

• John Kasich's Heaven Help Us (now available for pre-order)
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"We all have to figure out our own ways to carve out our own creativity," says New York Times best-selling ghostwriter Cynthia DiTiberio about finding time to do her own writing alongside her collaborative work. "Not that our creativity doesn't go into our ghostwritten books, but you can't claim it in the same way."

Cynthia knows what it takes to create a successful book. She started her publishing career as a senior editor at HarperCollins, where she worked with a number of authors, including NIH director Francis Collins and Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative reporter Jeffrey Marx. From there she went on to co-author a number of best-selling books with a variety of well-known personalities, including Emmy-nominated actress and producer Roma Downey; author-turned-political activist Marianne Williamson; and business strategist and motivational speaker Tony Robbins.

She currently writes the Substack newsletter "The Mother Lode," and is the former publisher of Literary Mama, and her work has appeared in Scary Mommy, The Lily, Mutha Magazine and The Voices Project.

Learn more about Cynthia DiTiberio:

• Website
• Instagram
• LinkedIn
• Box of Butterflies
• Napkin Notes

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We're taking a bit of a pivot here at the podcast factory with this one, pinching from the season-opening episode of Writer's Bone, our flagship podcast at the Writer's Bone Podcast Network. "As Told To" producer and Writer's Bone host and founder Daniel Ford featured a conversation with the writing team of Hannah Bos and Paul Thureen, co-creators of the enchantingly poignant HBO series "Somebody Somewhere," starring actress/comedian Bridget Everett—a conversation that brushed up against so many relatable aspects of collaborative writing that we decided to rebroadcast it (to re-podcast it?) here.

"Somebody Somewhere" ended its three-season run in December, shortly after the creators sat with Daniel Ford to discuss the series—hailed by The Los Angeles Times as "epic television"—and we were charmed by their conversation, inviting listeners behind the scenes to reflect on how the show came about, and the singular place it now holds in the annals of bittersweet television.

Paul Thureen is a founder and co-Artistic Director of The Debate Society, a Brooklyn-based theater company. He received an OBIE Award for his performance in the company's Blood Play. Hannah Bos, also a founder and co-founder of the company, received a Drama Desk Award for her performance in the Signature Theater Company's production of Will Eno's The Open House. Together, they have written for "Mozart in the Jungle" and "High Maintenance," and developed pilots for HBO, FOX, Amazon and Paramount.

"This has been a dream come true," Hannah reflected on the duo's "Somebody Somewhere" run as the series came to a close. "It was a dream that they made the pilot. It was a dream that they made the first season, the second season, the third season. And it was a dream that we made it with really fun, good people. So I hope we can do it again."

Paul's reflections were a little less…well, reflective, as he shared what it was like to write for a group of midwestern-ish characters who weren't used to talking about their feelings. "If it gets a little too real," he said, of the pain and heartache that could often be found at the show's core, "then you have to make a fart joke."

Indeed.

Learn more about Hannah Bos and Paul Thureen:

• "Somebody, Somewhere" Season Three Trailer
• Hannah Bos Website
• Paul Thureen Instagram
• The Debate Society

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"The work that we do is actually very difficult to detach from when you're writing in somebody's voice," notes veteran collaborator Laura Morton on the emotional connection she often feels when channeling her clients' stories.

Laura comes by this observation honestly, after spending more than thirty years helping to tell other people's stories. In that time, she has written more than 60 books, including 22 New York Times bestsellers. Her most recent bestseller Fire in the Hole: The Untold Story of My Traumatic Life and Explosive Success, written with GoDaddy and PXG Golf founder Bob Parsons—was a publication of Lasega Books, her own imprint at Forefront Books, an innovative independent publisher.

Over the years, Laura has worked with a wide range of celebrities, entrepreneurs and innovators, including Joan Lunden, Al Roker, Jennifer Hudson, Susan Lucci, Melissa Etheridge, Justin Bieber, Danica Patrick, John Maxwell, Glenn Stearns, and the Jonas Brothers.

Laura is also the writer, co-director, and producer of the award-winning 2022 documentary "Anxious Nation," exploring the age of anxiety and depression, and a leading mental health advocate and workshop facilitator.

Join us for a wide-ranging conversation on the changing face of publishing, as Laura reflects on her long career as one of the industry's leading storytellers, and on her recent shift from ghostwriter to "mission-driven" publisher, helping to build a platform for her collaborative clients and other authors looking to land their stories on America's bookshelf.

Learn more about Laura Morton:

• Website
• Lasega Books
• Forefront Books
• Facebook
• Instagram

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"You'd be amazed at how far you can get in life having no idea what the subjunctive mood is," writes Benjamin Dreyer, retired managing editor and copy chief of the Random House division of Penguin Random House. "As if it's not bad enough that English has rules, it also has moods."

Yes, it does. Happily, the mood of the room for writers in Benjamin's good hands as a copyeditor was cheerful and patient and winning… and, for the most part, grammatically correct. Over the course of his 30+ years in publishing, he helped to shepherd the work of writers such as Michael Chabon, Edmund Morris, Suzan-Lori Parks, E.L. Doctorow, Elizabeth Strout, and Shirley Jackson into print.

Somewhere in there, he also found time to write a book of his own: The New York Times best-selling stylebook Dreyer's English: An Utterly Correct Guide to Clarity and Style—a "brilliant, pithy, incandescently intelligent book [that] is to contemporary writing what Geoffrey Chaucer's poetry was to medieval English," according to Pulitzer Prize-winning author Jon Meacham, another Random House author who benefited from our guest's unseen hand.

Join us as Benjamin reflects on the collaborative role of the copyeditor in the publishing process, on the joys of creative footnoting, on the particularly lovely frustration of working with Isabella Rossellini, on a writer's lifetime allotment of exclamation points, and the excesses to be pruned from phrases like "assless chaps," "slightly ajar," and "passing fad."

(Note the ever-popular serial comma in the previous sentence, and the expenditure of one of those allotted exclamation points in this parenthetical aside!)

Learn more about Benjamin Dreyer:

• Website
• Blue Sky
• Facebook
• Instagram
• Substack

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This episode originally aired June 20, 2023

First-time author David Jacks, a veteran video editor and music supervisor, ran into legendary music producer Peter Asher at a Santa Monica taco joint in 2003 and asked if he could interview him. Jacks, a long-time admirer of the man said to be the inspiration for Mike Myers' "shagadelic" Austin Powers character, who first came to prominence as one-half of the hit-making British pop vocal duo Peter and Gordon and would go on to produce generation-defining albums for artists such as James Taylor, Linda Ronstadt, Bonnie Raitt, Randy Newman, and Diana Ross, immediately asked Asher if he would sit for an interview.

The aspiring journalist thought he might use the interview as the basis for an article in a music magazine, but the two-time Grammy-winning Producer of the Year didn't think anyone would want to read it. Nevertheless, that first interview led to another… and another… and on and on. Over the next two decades, the two continued to talk, while Jacks lined up interviews with hundreds of musicians and record industry professionals who had worked with Asher over the years, eventually leading to the publication of Peter Asher: A Life in Music, the first book-length account of the producer's life and career.

Join us for a two-part conversation with author and subject, as Asher reflects on a book he never thought anyone would be interested in reading, and Jacks shares what it was like to tease out the story of a shape-shifting pioneer—"a fascinating music business anomaly," according to The New York Times, who could never quite understand what all the fuss was about.

Learn more about our guests:

• Read The New York Times profile of Peter Asher, timed to coincide with the publication of the David Jacks book.
• Read Peter Asher: A Life in Music
• Read Peter Asher's The Beatles from A to Zed, based on the author's popular Sirius XM radio show on The Beatles Channel.
• Peter Asher on Instagram
• David Jacks website

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• Gotham Ghostwriters/ASJA "Andy Awards" Guidelines
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• Film Movement Plus (PODCAST) | 30% discount
• Libro.fm (ASTOLDTO) | 2 audiobooks for the price of 1 when you start your membership
• Film Freaks Forever! podcast, hosted by Mark Jordan Legan and Phoef Sutton
• Everyday Shakespeare podcast
• A Mighty Blaze podcast
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• Misfits Market (WRITERSBONE) | $15 off your first order
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