In this special guest episode, Brian Ahearn joins me to
talk about persuasion, sales, and so many topics as we go down many paths in
- Ethical Persuasion
- Building rapport & the principle of ‘liking’
- Why intention matters
- Reciprocity technique
- How to mess up rapport
- Overcoming objections through Consensus and Authority
- Closing with Consistency and Scarcity
Brian Ahearn is the Chief Influence Officer at Influence
PEOPLE. A dynamic international keynote speaker, trainer, coach and consultant,
Brian specializes in applying the science of influence and persuasion in
everyday situations. He is one of only 20 individuals in the world who
currently holds the Cialdini Method Certified Trainer® designation.
This specialization in the psychology of persuasion was earned directly from Robert B. Cialdini, Ph.D. – the most cited living social psychologist in the world on the science of ethical persuasion. Brian is one of only a handful of people certified to lead the Moment Maker Workshop, which is based on Robert Cialdini’s New York Times best-selling book Pre-suasion.
Twitter https://twitter.com/BrianAhearn
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/IinfluencePeopleBrianAhearn/
LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianfahearn/
Website https://www.influencepeople.biz
Amazon for the book https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07W8XB8F5/
Episode Transcript
Cutter: 00:00 Welcome
to the sales experience podcast. My name is Jason Cutter. On this episode I
have a special guest joining me to talk about persuasion and it fits perfectly
within the framework of my goals for all of you listening, which is to help
create the ideal sales experience for yourself and your prospects as you move
them towards being raving fan clients. Now, Brian Ahearn is a master of
persuasion and I know that some people can claim that, but he is actually
certified in persuasion. He’s been doing it for over 30 years, starting with
insurance companies and then branching out to non-insurance companies and
anybody who wants help with closing more sales. He’s written a book, the book,
like I said, he does certified trainings and programs. I’m going to put all of
his links and info in the show notes for now. Brian, welcome to the sales experience
Ahearn: 00:46 Thank
you, Jason. I really appreciate you having me on.
Cutter: 00:48 Yeah,
I’m really excited about this because I feel like most people in sales, I know
a bit about persuasion. I think there’s things I’ve picked up along the way,
but not from a scholastic like educated researched. You know, there’s what I’ve
put together over the years that I know works well, but not from a deep level
and I don’t normally do this if anyone’s listening to my shows with the guests,
I don’t normally go into interview mode, but there’s one question I’m curious
about that I want to start with is how does somebody even become a professional
Ahearn: 01:20 Well,
I’m connected with Robert Cialdini and some of your listeners might know who Dr
Cialdini is. He really is the guru when it comes to this. In fact, he’s known
as the most social psychologist on the planet when it comes to understanding
the science of influence and persuasion. He came out with a book called
influence science and practice back in the bits on it. It’s I think fifth or
sixth edition, sold about 3 million copies. It’s the gold standard when it
comes to this. And the good fortune of getting connected with him almost 20
years ago. And through a series of just random events ended up getting
connected with him and was so intrigued by what he talked about because I knew
right away this, this psychology explains why so many of the sales techniques
that people are taught, why they work. And I also felt great about the fact
that it was grounded in science. It wasn’t just somebody’s good opinion or what
worked for them, it was rooted in empirical data. And I felt like I could get
behind that. And the third thing was his stance on ethics that he is all about
non-manipulative ways to move people to action
Cutter: 02:26 Well.
And I think that’s really the key that divides or separates persuasion from
manipulation is the ethical side. It’s for the reasons why you’re wanting
somebody or using some skills to get somebody to do something, to take action
to buy. Or it could be anything in your life and persuasion is all about their
goals and something that’s going to benefit them. And you may have some kind of
reward in it as well, but it’s for their betterment versus manipulation, which
Ahearn: 02:54 That’s
exactly right. And we go a little further too, when we talk about manipulation
versus when we talk about what it means to ethically persuade somebody, first
and foremost, it’s gotta be that proverbial win-win. It can’t just be that I
want to make a sale to make a commission and I don’t care how the product or
service works for you. It’s got to be good for you. Good for me. The second
thing is we’ve got to be truthful in all of our communication. And that means
we don’t lie by omission or commission. In other words, we don’t hide the
truth. If I was selling my home and there’s a crack in the basement, I don’t
put a plant in front of it or something and hope that people don’t see it. I
learned through persuasion that I can actually talk about that and gained some
credibility because I’m viewed as being honest. So we don’t lie, we don’t cover
the truth. And the third thing that’s a requirement is that we use the
psychology, what we call these principles of influence in ways that are natural
to the situation. We don’t try to force in a principle if it’s not naturally
available. And I think if we followed those three criteria, we’re being ethical
in our attempts to move somebody to some sort of action.
Cutter: 03:59 And
that’s so interesting when you talk about it. I deal with a lot of salespeople
where it’s the omission side, right? It’s the plant in front of the crack in
the wall relative to their sales process where they don’t want to mention
something. There’s some negative or some part of what they’re selling that some
other prospects haven’t liked. And so they try to avoid it. They try to ignore
this detail that could be a deal killer or could blow up later on down the road
and they just want to avoid it versus tackling it. And that kind of open, this
will actually lead to better sales and more effectiveness.
Ahearn: 04:32 Absolutely.
Because there are transitional words like, but and however, and people
typically forget what comes before button. That’s why when you hear, honey, I love
Cutter: 04:42 Remember
the, I just totally just cancels out everything you said before the button,
Ahearn: 04:46 Right?
So if you lead with what is perceived to be a weakness, and I don’t mean you
kicked the door down and say, let me tell you everything that’s wrong with me
or my product, but you lead with a weakness relatively early on, you take that
off the table. Because if you don’t do that in the back of the mind of the
prospective customer, they’re probably wondering about it. So you address it,
but then you use a word like butter, however, and you segue into your strengths
and they tend to remember the strengths more than they do any perceived
weakness. And the truth is, Jason, you know this, no product or service is
perfect. Nope. Everyone has a potential downside for certain customers. So you
might as well deal with it and gain a reputation of credibility.
Cutter: 05:24 100%
and a lot of salespeople, it’s funny because this isn’t even what we were
planning on talking about, but since we’re here, there’s a lot of salespeople
who just come from more of a desperate side or they’re worried about closing
deals where they have a limited number of leads or they’re just feeling this
pressure internally or externally to meet some quota or numbers or make
commission, and so they want to imagine that they’re supposed to sell
everything to everybody, but it’s not a good fit. If you’re selling something
that is a value, it’s not going to be perfect for every single person, and your
job as a salesperson isn’t to make it fit for every persons to figure out what
they and then how you can solve that. And when you go about that and you point
out the pros and the cons, it also checks that box off of every prospect’s
mind, which is thinking, what’s the catch?
Cutter: 06:08 Right?
Get that over with. There’s always a catch. There’s always a downside. Nothing
is perfect. Even if it’s the perfect car, there’s going to be something about
it that may be ideal. Or maybe it’s the maintenance cost and literally just
deal with it. And if we think about just go into dating and getting married,
not everybody’s perfect fit, they may be wonderful people, but not everybody is
a perfect fit and you don’t want to happy people. And I think it’s the same
thing when it comes to products and services. Don’t force it. There’s plenty of
people in prospective clients out there. The challenge is finding the right
ones. Yeah. And there might be a semi perfect match and there’s always going to
be, you know, some parts that aren’t going to be a good fit. And can you live
with those? Right? Just like any product or service and a relationship, you
know, can you take the good with the not so good. Absolutely. So what we were
going to talk about, what we wanted to cover, you know, when we initially
started talking, which I’ve covered early on in the show, and I talk a lot
about is I call it my universal sales success formula. And it’s all these
different parts which start with building rapport and relationships, which I
know for you is one of the big topics that you cover. I mean it all starts with
that, right? So every relationship starts with some level of rapport that’s
appropriate. Absolutely. When we talk about building relationship,
Ahearn: 07:21 There
is a couple of what we call principles of influence psychology and there’s two
principles that are very effective for building relationship. The first one
that I like talking about is called the principle of liking and this’ll be no
surprise to anybody listening that the more somebody likes you, the easier it
is for them to say yes. That’s a given. What a lot of people don’t understand
is how to get someone to like you. And there are some very simple things that
we can do. So for example, Jason, if the more things that I find out you and I
have in common, the more you will like me. I mean if we find out we had the
same pet cheer for the same team, went to the same college, it is just natural
for people to like those who they have something in common with.
Ahearn: 08:00 And
the second very simple way is by offering genuine compliments. If I’m
complimentary of you and the endorphins are flowing and you feel good, you
associate that with me, then you tend to like me more. So that’s not very hard.
But here’s the real key and I want everybody to, if they walk away with just
one thing from this episode, it would be this. Do not try to get people to like
you. And that may sound contradictory based on what I just shared. But here’s
the key, the very same psychology, Jason, that will make you like me will make
me like you. In other words, when I find out we have something in common, I
start to like you more. And when I look for things that I can genuinely
compliment you about, I think more highly of you and the whole while I’m really
convincing myself, Jason’s a good guy, I like him and here’s why.
Ahearn: 08:43 It’s
so important because when you see, when you can tell with your senses and you
can tell with your eyes and ears and you can see my smile on my face, when you
sense that Brian really likes that opens you up to totally whatever it is that
I might want to do because in our hearts we believe our friends do right by our
friends and if I truly come to like you Jason, I would never want to take
advantage of you and that’s, that becomes really the key to take manipulation
off of the table. If all of your listeners work hard to come to like the
perspective customers, they talk to the current customers, they deal with the
people they work with, vendors who they interact with. If they work hard too,
like all those people, they will be shocked at how well the relationships
evolved and how much easier business gets.
Cutter: 09:28 And
I think there’s something key that you mentioned and then moved on very
quickly, which is you can’t force it. I see a lot of people, I’m sure you have
that are told. Okay, the first thing is to build rapport. Get someone to like
you. If they like you and they trust you, then they’ll buy from you. So go at
them as hard as you can and figure out all the things you have in common. If
it’s a face to face interaction, you walk into their office, look for something
you could start talking about. And a lot of times I hear people, especially on
phone calls, where they’re forcing it, they literally, maybe they care, they
don’t care, but they’re told they’ve got to do it. And so they’re just going at
it full force and it doesn’t work the same.
Ahearn: 10:04 That’s
right. Two people can do the very same things, but intention matters a lot. In
fact, there’s a quote that I use a lot of times when I’m doing workshops or
presentations, and it goes like this, this from a book called the art of Woo,
which means winning others over. An earnest and sincere lover Buys Flowers and
candy for the object of his affections. So does the cad who only seeks to take
advantage of another’s heart. But when the cad succeeds, we don’t blame the
flowers and the candy. We rightly questioned his character. So two people can
use the very same thing, flowers and candy, and they have very different
intentions. Two people could use the same principle, in this case, the
principle of liking and have very different intentions and most people sense
that. They can sense the sincerity. But I would say to those very same people
who are kind of desperately trying to connect with people, if they take a step
back and really explore themselves and say, do I want to enjoy my career? Do I
want to enjoy the people that I work with? Do I want to enjoy the customers
that I interact with? What’s the best way to do that? That would be that I come
to like them. How can I do that? And then they start approaching. Maybe they’re
doing the same things, but the intention is different in the sense that you get
from that person is totally different because you get that genuine, authentic
part that’s like, wow, this person cares about me. And that’s what starts
Cutter: 11:21 And
I think that’s easily detectable from the outside as a manager, as a third
party from the customer side. If you’ve dealt with someone like this, you can
tell the difference of when somebody is using rapport building as a tactic to
get what they want, which is more on the manipulation side of the line versus
the ones who actually care and are asking questions and wanting to build
rapport and a relationship and find those things in common because they’re
naturally curious and then they actually want to help the person and solve
their problem in whatever way they can. Now you have another thing that you
talk about a wrote about is reciprocity in this stage here,
Ahearn: 12:00 So
when we do things that genuinely benefit other people, they tend to appreciate
that and they tend to reciprocate. What we do is we look to truly try to help
people. While reciprocity tells us that if I help you, you feel a sense of
obligation to want to do something in return. For me. People shouldn’t approach
it as a lever like, oh, I’ll do something for Jason so he’ll have to do
something for me now. No, we should approach it with the mindset of I want to
genuinely help people. If I come across something that I can do or share with
you, Jason, that helps you. That’s what I should do. Now I can feel comfortable
if I go back to you at some point down the road, if you’re the right person
with the right skills to potentially help me and you will probably want to help
me because of what I’ve already done for you. That’s how it should really work.
Not a tit for tat. I will do this cause I’m sure some of your listeners have
experienced this where somebody offers them something and immediately their
defense goes up and they say, okay, what do you want? I know there’s strings
attached here and I’m not going to say yes until I understand what you really
want because they sniff it out. This person isn’t really there to help them.
They’re there to get something.
Cutter: 13:08 And
I think there’s a lot of times, because I’ve seen this as well, is where let’s
say my intentions are good, I’m giving something and without the intention of
getting something in return, right? So I’m doing it from a natural place, not a
manipulative side. However, I could be dealing with somebody who’s been burned
in the past. And so a lot of times I deal with salespeople and I train them on
the fact that you’ve got to be careful because sometimes you’re doing
everything right and the prospect or the other party could be even a
relationship. They’re gonna react a certain way and it’s nothing to do with
you. You have to be careful with where you’re putting the feedback and kind of
pointing the finger to fix things because it might not be you, it might be some
baggage. Maybe they got burned by a sales person in the past and it’s not about
you. It’s about what they’ve been through.
Ahearn: 13:56 Yeah.
I have generally found if you have time, you don’t always have time. If you
have time and you’re trying to build some relationship because some sales are
very short cycle and some are very long that you’re in there and you continue
to be genuine and authentic and people start to see that that’s where the
defense has start coming down and they become more open to having genuine
conversations about what their needs and wants are and how you might be able to
Cutter: 14:18 Yeah,
and I think there’s that intersection between the sales cycle cause it might be
a 15 minute one call close or it might be a six month, you know, long
transaction. Also it’s relative to price. So depending on the price that’s
involved, the risk, you know on the financial side is going to dictate how hard
the walls are going to be up relative to the risk that the prospect is making.
Ahearn: 14:39 Absolutely.
I mean, if it’s a short cycle, not a very expensive item, you probably, you
don’t have enough time to do certain things, but you also don’t have to have
the same degree of relationship, the same degree of expertise because people
can probably get that product in other places as well. But what you’re getting
into longer cycles, more risk, more complex things, people are going to want to
have relationship and they’re going to want to have trust and they’re gonna
want to know that you’re an expert and you’ve got to plan to build that in.
Cutter: 15:09 So
let me ask you this about rapport because it’s a philosophy that I’ve held for
a long time, but I want to get your take on it before I even share my thoughts.
Do you think there’s too much rapport possible by a salesperson?
Ahearn: 15:24 Yes.
I think of a salesperson is uncomfortable with certain parts of the sales
cycle. They can default to just trying to be a buddy and nothing ever ends up
getting accomplished. It’s not good for the person who has a need and it’s not
good for the company that the salesperson represents. I mean it’s the business
that brought the relationship about. I should be able to say, Jason, I really
like you. I’ve enjoyed getting to know you, but it is a business that brought
us together here and we need to talk about and get into that
Cutter: 15:50 And
do you think, I see a lot of times where reps do that where they’re just
worried about something or they’re nervous or they’re new. Some of that’s just
normal, but do you ever see it where there’s so much rapport going on that it’s
too much in the friend zone and a prospect? Ben Doesn’t necessarily want to
work with that person because now it’s too friendly or do you think there’s a
way to be very, very friendly, super in the friend zone and
Ahearn: 16:15 Close
deals and be effective? That’s going to depend mostly on the perspective
customer and for some, I mean I’ve heard people say before they don’t like to
do business with their friends, close friends because if it goes sideways they
don’t want to ruin the friendship. Yeah, of course. I have other people who
say, absolutely I want to do business with a friend because that person will
have my best interest at heart. So there’s two different buying styles there
and you’ve got to understand what those are. A savvy salesperson is going to
detect whether somebody doesn’t want to go too far with that friendship. They
want to keep it mostly business. That’s okay. It’s about meeting the customer
where they are, not where you want it to be. And that’s why I said earlier, I
think some people can out of comfort, just stay in that friendly zone and then
not make what would be the best interest of both parties.
Cutter: 17:05 Yeah.
And the balance I’ve found personally with my own sales style is I tend to
generally build a lot of rapport with people because I’m just naturally curious
and I want to help them. And then the conversation usually goes a little bit
long. My talk times and my sales times are always longer but very effective.
And what I generally do is some relationship building up front, get to the
matter, figure out if it’s something I can help them with and through the
transaction, through the process, you know, building even more rapport and
layering it on. And then sometimes even post closed transaction if there’s
follow-up, adding more on there. So it’s kind of a, not a sandwich necessarily,
but the primary focus is business with a bunch of rapport, like just in and out
of the whole conversation.
Ahearn: 17:49 I
don’t think there’s anything wrong with that at all. I want to enjoy the people
that I interact with and so that doesn’t just mean enjoy them for the first 15
minutes as we get to know each other and instead of deciding which into
business mode. Right? Yeah. Because rapport also, you know, one of the studies
that I share when we do our two day workshop is having rapport with people
impacts negotiations too. People are much less likely to get deadlocked if
they, you can come to like the person that they’re interacting with.
Cutter: 18:17 Yeah.
Makes Sense. Moving on. One of the other topics that you cover a lot, and
that’s important with this that I see a lot of salespeople deal with and
struggle with, whether they’re new or not, is objections and overcoming
objections, but doing it in the right way and not a terrible hot mess on one
side or manipulating and lying by omission on the other side.
Ahearn: 18:40 Well,
in my view, when you take a very high level look at the sales process, first
and foremost, it’s about building some relationship. Then you’ve got to deal
with any objections that may arise or uncertainty that can come about. And then
it’s about closing the sale. So when you’re in that, that phase of dealing with
objections, there are two principles that we talk about that are especially
effective, the principle of consensus or some people might know it as social
proof and the principle of authority. So I’ll start with consensus. Consensus.
Human beings, by our very nature, we look to other people to see how they’re
behaving, acting, what are they thinking, what are they doing? And that has a
big impact on how we think, feel, act, and what we do. Some people try to push
that away and deny that as if it’s herd mentality, but the human species
evolved being a pack animal in tribes and we learned as a species.
Ahearn: 19:34 There
is safety in numbers, their safety when lots of people are doing something so
consciously or subconsciously big driver of behavior. If you in when you’re in
sales can talk about what other people have experienced when they’ve done
business with you or your organization that is going to start to lessen some of
the objection and the more that prospect or the more the a your current
customers are to the prospective customer that you’re talking to, the easier it
is for them to envision doing business with you because if people just like
them are having success, then there’s no reason they probably wouldn’t.
Cutter: 20:08 Obviously
there’s a lot of people out there who will tell you as a business person, maybe
if it’s a salesperson or just in general in the population, don’t worry about
what other people are doing. Don’t worry about what people say, what their
thoughts about you, their feedback. That’s important. And what you’re saying is
very true. I mean if we take it a way, way, way far back, your survival could
be relative to, is that Barry that you just found poisonous they’re going to
kill you or is it the safe one? And if everyone is eating it and everyone is
safe, then that’s the decision we should make. And at some root level in the
prospect’s mind, they are wondering if they were to buy from you, could this
lead to death or or loss? And that’s literally what they’re thinking. It might
seem silly no matter what you’re selling.
Cutter: 20:52 And
I’ve generally spent a lot of my time in sales and sales management, helping
people’s situations get better. So helping them get out of debt or helping them
with something financially that’s burdening them. And it’s amazing how they
still don’t want to make a decision because they’d rather deal with the, like
they say the devil they know then the devil they don’t know. Because even if
it’s help and even if it’s an outstretched hand, they still know. And those
third party testimonials, those social proof, those stories about other people
who did it and survived and they’re better off are so important in dealing with
the fears. Right. That are triggering the objections. Yeah. That’s why
Ahearn: 21:27 You
could have a great product and depending on the complexity and the money
involved, if you get to the point where somebody says it all sounds great but
who else is using this and you can’t come up with anybody, all of a sudden that
person’s going to be like, yeah, I don’t think I want to be the Guinea pig
Cutter: 21:43 Yeah.
Maybe for the right price, but not probably for what you’re asking.
Ahearn: 21:47 Yes.
There are always some people who are outliers. They want to be first, they want
to be the trailblazer. There are very few and far between and you’re probably
not going to make a living hunting after those when, when you have so many more
people who would be more comfortable knowing that there are other people who
are somewhat similar to them enjoying your, the benefits of your product or
services. Yeah. Okay. And then you mentioned authority as well. Yeah, so
authority just highlights the fact that as humans, we tend to default to people
that we view as having superior wisdom or expertise. As an example, if you and
I are at a party and there’s a whole group of people standing around and people
are complaining about taxes, if somebody says, you know, I’m a CPA and they
start talking, we pay more attention because they do that for living.
Ahearn: 22:28 They
know more about taxes than we do. And this is why when we have ailments, we
call doctors. When we need legal advice, we can go online and look it up
ourselves. But most people feel more comfortable when a lawyer tells them what
to do. And so when you understand that, it’s incumbent upon you as a
salesperson to make sure that prospective customer knows either a, what your
expertise is or B, that you bring expertise into the conversation because it’s
quite okay to borrow authority from a third party. As an example, if I were
talking to an audience, I might be able to share some information off the top
of my head. But if that information comes from a respected source, maybe
Newsweek or Time magazine, something like that. And I say, I read time last
week and then I share it carries more weight because that’s a re trusted,
respected periodical. And yet a lot of times people forget to share that or
they might think, oh, if I do that, they’re going to think I didn’t know it and
I’m not much of an expert. No, it’s exactly the opposite.
Cutter: 23:30 Well,
and the other part to add that I tried to impress upon a lot of salespeople in
teams as well is that if you’ve been doing it for any length of time, you or
your company, then you want to make sure that the prospect you’re dealing with
understands that as well.
Ahearn: 23:45 So
if it’s the first time interacting with them
Ahearn: 23:47 And
they’re nervous, their walls are up, you know, at some point in the
conversation, in the best way possible, I think it’s always good to relay that.
I’ve been doing this for years. Our company has been doing this for years. I
talked to, you know, a dozen people a day. I’ve talked to a thousand people in
the years I’ve been here and you know, here’s the what I’ve seen or here’s generally
what happens. Here’s what I found, you know, sharing that from that experience.
If you’re a sales professional, you’ve been in in awhile, then you know that
you’re going to leverage those kinds of timeline stats. If you’re new, then
come from a place of, you know, our company has been in business for five years
or eight years or two years and we’ve dealt with hundreds of people and here’s
what we know. The more where you can weave that into your casual conversation
rather than presenting it as a billboard.
Ahearn: 24:35 Cause
people will forget that. But when you’re having that casual conversation, and
if I said, you know, Jason, I’ve been doing this for more than 30 years, what
I’ve found is, and I just keep going, well you just casually drop those in
there. It does make a difference because it’s that reminder of, Oh this guy’s
done this for a long time. And so what follows next is given more weight than
it would if they were sitting there going, huh, how long has he been doing
this? Yeah, and like you said, just casual and the conversation flowing
through. Sometimes in response to an objection where they’re having that, a
rebuttal they’re handling or as they’re setting up for another segment, either
in their presentation or their sales process, you know, leveraging their
authority, the company’s authority or like you said, third party trusted
sources, hey, you know, this is what we found in our research according to this
periodical or this information.
Ahearn: 25:22 Now
something else is highly affected if you have the right opportunity. When I
worked for a large insurance company here in Columbus, Ohio, and I would travel
with some of our field people in a coaching capacity, I would always ask them
before I agree to go out and travel with you, I want to know each agency that
we’re going to see and the individuals, their names and their email. And then
what I would do is construct an email and I would have my boss who at the time
was the vice president of sales, send that to each of the agency owners. So you
might have gotten something that said, you know, Jason, I know Dan Species is
going to be calling on your agency next week. He probably told you Brian, 800
would be with him. Thought I would like to know a little bit about why Brian’s
going to be in Arizona and what his role is, and then he could talk about that.
Ahearn: 26:08 It
removed the whose the Home Office guy set me up as an expert in things that
impacted that agency. So I used to manage the agency bonus plan, so they always
had questions but, but it could set me up as an expert and it worked like a
charm. Every time I would go to an agency because I walked in as a known
quantity, somebody who had a lot of experience and they would also, we would
put in a little bit about my personal background so we could connect on that,
but it’s unbelievable the difference. It would make, so anybody who’s listening
to this, if you have an opportunity with a prospective client, let’s say you’ve
made a call or you had an introduction and they’ve agreed to see you. If you
could have somebody above you send an email, maybe it’s the owner of your
company and it goes out to you, Jason and says, Jason, I know Brian is going to
be coming out next week too. Speak with you, or let me tell you a little bit
about him. Basically the same thing that then begins to set me up as an expert
before I ever opened my mouth.
Cutter: 27:04 Yeah.
It’s so funny because in my years of sales management, different affiliates,
different branches, and then what I do now, I’ve had the experience of getting
that kind of intro in advance to the team. Where do they know who I am when I
come in and the reception that that leads to versus the cold showing up. Guy from
corporate in the suit, everyone freaking out and nobody knows what’s going on.
Kind of reception, you know, first day showing up
Ahearn: 27:33 And
sometimes it’s strategic because we just want to, you know, throw me into it.
Cutter: 27:37 But
it’s always better like you said, and if you’re in a sales process, especially
if it’s longer, some kind of introduction
Ahearn: 27:43 And
something that would help warm that up for you. That’s it. That’s great advice.
It’s no different than a speaker bio. If you were going to stand up somewhere
and and speak, it was very, it’d be very natural for somebody hosting the event
to read a bio, which you probably wrote. I wrote that email that my boss would
send, I wrote it, but nobody knows me better than me. Nobody knows you, Jason,
better than you. And you know exactly what you want people to understand
specific to that audience to make them most receptive to whatever it is that
you might ask. So this doesn’t take a lot of time, but it takes some time. It
takes some forethought. Otherwise you’re just operating like everybody else
who’s not tapping into any of this psychology.
Cutter: 28:20 Okay,
so we’ve got rapport with dealt with objections, we’ve talked about third
parties. We’re keeping everybody safe with the heard, they know they’re making
the right decision. And then the last part for us to talk about really is, is
closing, which not necessarily closing strategies in lines and techniques. A
lot of people ask me like, what’s the best thing to say to close it,
Ahearn: 28:40 But
Cutter: 28:41 On
the persuasion side as a higher level,
Ahearn: 28:44 Right?
So two principles of influence that we talk about here. One is called
consistency. The other one is scarcity. Consistency highlights the fact that as
human beings, we feel this internal psychological pressure as well as external
social pressure to be consistent in what we say and what we do. So as an
example, Jason, have you ever given your word to somebody that you would be
somewhere or do something with them but had to back out? Of course, yeah. And
how did you feel when you had to make that phone call and say, I can’t be
Cutter: 29:15 I
didn’t like it. It wasn’t good.
Ahearn: 29:17 Yeah.
And that’s how most people feel. So this principle highlights the fact that
first and foremost inside, we feel better about ourselves when we keep our
word. And so we work pretty hard to keep our word and oh, by the way, then we
also look better to anybody who’s involved with this. And that’s a powerful
driver too. So the key is can I get somebody to commit? And here would be a
really simple example. I’m sure that many of your listeners parents, when my
daughter, who’s now 23, when she was a teenager in high school it was not
uncommon maybe for my wife to say, Abigail, empty the dishwasher. Boom, we go
to work. And then we come back from work, dishwasher, not empty. We might go to
bed, daughter’s more of a night owl, she’d come in later, we’d get up in the
morning, dishwasher, not empty.
Ahearn: 30:00 And
you can imagine the conversation between a mother and a teenage daughter at
that point. You know, it’s, I told you to empty the dishwasher and then the
excuses. I didn’t hear. I was busy. I was going to do it in a few minutes, but
the difference, so she was being told what to do and I would ask her, I would
say, Abigail, would you please empty the dishwasher before you leave for
school? He either said yes and did it, or if she said, no, I can’t, I’m in a
rush. I’d say, okay, Hey, wait a minute. Will you empty it as soon as you get
home from school before you leave for work? And almost every time she’d say yes
and she would do it. Why? Because once she said yes, she didn’t want to feel
bad about herself and she didn’t want to look bad in my eyes. Take that same
philosophy to your customers. Think about all the time that you tell them what
to do rather than asking. And that’s a big difference because once they
verbally or in writing commit back to you, they’re far more likely to follow
Cutter: 30:54 Well,
and I think it’s interesting, especially using the kid dishwasher example and
then translating that to sales with the consistency. I think people want to
stick with their word. They want to be in alignment with who they feel they are
and what they’ve said they are. And in the term of sales, in terms of anything
else, I think that also the follow through depends on if they respect the other
person. And so I think that’s one of the parts that’s important during the
sales process where you’re doing the other parts we talked about versus several
other where the person respects you as that sales professional who’s trying to
help them. Then they want to stick with the word that they said or what they’re
doing. Cause I’ve seen it a lot where somebody says they’re going to do
something, they’re going to sign up, they’re going to buy, they’re going to
fill out the contract, they’re going to take it to their boss and they don’t.
And I know in listening to the interactions from the outside, I know they
didn’t totally respect or trust that salesperson. So yes, they’re kind of out
of alignment with their own things, but they’re going to justify it with, no, I
didn’t really like them. So it doesn’t matter.
Ahearn: 31:54 Yeah.
Well, a couple of things I’ll say to this one. This is not a magic wand, I
hope. I hope your listeners don’t think that just because they employ some of
this, everybody’s going to do what they want all of the time. No, but can you
move more people? Absolutely. Second thing I would say is if you’ve done a
really good job of building the relationship, not just fluff, but really
authentically building some relationships, if you’ve been doing some things
that have genuinely been good or beneficial for that other person. And I don’t
just mean like offering tickets to a ball game, but maybe it’s sharing
information with them that you came across and you just knew it could be
helpful for them or their business. Or you find out that they’re in a charity
run and you donate, but you do some things that are genuinely beneficial and
then you move in and you have truly established yourself as an expert or your
firm as an expert. Now you’ve got that reputation where it becomes even harder
to back out of their words. So I would say if when that’s happening, you got to
go back to, you know, the relationship and the objection part and look at where
did I meet, where could I have done better?
Cutter: 32:54 Yeah.
A lot of people let us salespeople think they blew it at the close or there’s
something they could have said and that’s why the person in buyer’s now not
answering their follow-up phone calls. And to me, my brain always goes, no,
what did you do from the beginning and in the beginning and what was their
feeling of you as the professional,
Ahearn: 33:12 Right.
And, and then consistency comes in and I’m sure you teach, you know what’s
called the upfront close, but how to ask the right questions to truly
understand what that prospect needs and to be able to come back to them and
say, no, I think we’re going to be able to do these things. If we can do a, B,
and c, Jason, is there any other reason that I’m not aware of that would cause
you to make a different decision? And you really want them to come back and say
no. If you can do those things, I will make the switch. That’s what you’re
hoping for them to say. Now you, you still need to ask a lot of other questions
in the background I came from within insurance, you got to find out what’s the
relationship with your current agent. If they’re your brother in law, I might
say, Hey, last thing I want to do is spoil the holidays by taking the business
from your brother in law. And either they’ll say, you know, you’re right. Or
they might go, hey, the guy’s a jerk. My sister is leaving them. Like, okay,
Cutter: 34:05 Yeah.
And be respectful, but understand, you know, what’s possible. And that goes
back to doing it for the win-win side, for the persuasive side where it’s got
to be a win for both parties. And you know, fundamentally there’s enough people
out there to sell to and you don’t need to force it. You don’t need to
manipulate. You don’t need the twist anyone’s arm.
Ahearn: 34:23 Yep.
And the, the other principle that we talk about when it comes to, you know,
beneficial for closing the sale is the principle of scarcity. And that
highlights the fact that humans are more motivated by what they may lose as
opposed to what they may gain. And in fact, Daniel Kahneman won a Nobel prize
in economics and he’s a psychologist for psychologists to ever do that, but he
won a Nobel prize for his work in this area where he and his late partner, Amos
Tversky, statistically proved that human beings feel the pain of loss anywhere
from two to two and a half times more. And the joy of gaining the same thing.
So when we understand that here would be an example that I’ve shared. If I were
in wealth management and you are my client, Jason, if I were to say, Jason,
given your age, your income, and how many more years you expect to work, if we
can find a way for you to save just 1% more by my estimates, that’ll be
$150,000 more in your retirement. That’s motivating. But if I were to approach
it this way, and I’d say, Jason, based on your age, how much you make and your
years that you’ll continue to work. If we can’t find a way for you to say 1%
more, you’ll have lost $150,000 of your retirement. It feels a little
Ahearn: 35:36 It’s
framed as it’s your money
Cutter: 35:38 And
you will lose it. If you don’t take this action. It’s still the same thing,
right? 1% equals the 150,000 but how I talk about it, it makes a big
difference. And for people who think, well, that’s being negative or a scare
tactic. No, it’s using the language that science says is most persuasive. And I
guarantee you this, Jason, if you save that 1% and down the road, you retire,
you will not come back to me and say, darn you Brian, for scaring me into
saving that money. What am I going to do with this? 150 grand. Right? Hey,
thank you. Honestly, alerting me to what was on the line. Yeah. And, and again,
if we go way, way back caveman prehistoric, you know, our animals side, the
lizard part of our brains, it’s not worried about gain. It’s not focused on how
do I get more, it’s how do I protect what I have and not lose it for the sake
of my survival and you know, my family or my genes.
Cutter: 36:32 It’s
not about how do I get a bigger cave. It’s how do I not lose my current cave
and make my life worse. And you know, that’s the challenge when you’re trying
to get somebody to make a change as a salesperson, you’re trying to inspire that
change and affect that change and get them to do something different. Like you
said, people are more motivated by fear of loss than they are of hope of the
gain. And you’ve got to understand that and use that as long as you’re using it
on the persuasive side, the ethical persuasion to get them to make a decision
that’s going to benefit them, then it’s important that people understand both
sides. The loss and the gain. Yes. And the ethical part of it. And this is
where sometimes people don’t use principles that are natural to the situation,
will invoke a false sense of scarcity.
Cutter: 37:16 A
good example are people who might tell you siding, roofing gutters or other
things and they’re coming into your home and it’s a hard sell for, you know, 90
minutes to two hours and they’ll say something like, well, if you signed today,
I can save you 15% but if I have to come back at a later date, I can’t give you
that discount. That’s bogus because there’s nothing that’s really scarce there.
Even that salesperson’s time, is it scarce in the sense that it’s a tough sale
and if they’ve got to go visit, you know, eight more clients tomorrow, they
would love somebody to call them up and say, I’m ready to buy. They’d be over
at your house in a heartbeat. So yeah. Now if something happened, if there were
a natural disaster, a big hurricane, it might be legitimate for somebody to
say, look, if we act now, we can get the lumber at this price, but I’m being
honest with you because of the hurricane, there’s going to be a drain on
supplies to get down there and do the rebuilding.
Cutter: 38:04 If
we don’t act, you might end up paying a lot more or have to wait a significant
amount of time. That’s legitimate, but not this. If I have to come back, you
can’t get this price. That’s bogus. Yeah. And that sets up a lot of people I’ve
seen where they say, you know, if you buy by the end of the month or you know,
if you can do this by the end of the week and decide, I’ll give you this
discount. They don’t decide the next month the rep calls and then the person
saying, well, what kind of discount do you have now? Or you know, what are you
going to offer me? And then it’s just this terrible relationship that’s set up
so incorrectly based this false scarcity.
Ahearn: 38:36 Yeah.
And what’s really scarce there when you get that is the sales person’s
potential bonus, right? They want to hit some metric and if they don’t hit a
certain number, they’re not going to get a bonus or something. So they’re
acting out of their own scarcity and giving you those reduced prices. But it’s
not that because that deal will probably come around at the end of the next
month or next quarter or next year. You just got to wait for it. There’s always
a semi-annual sale to just wait for cause it’ll be back. That’s right.
Absolutely. I appreciate everything that you shared. This is so much good
information. As we wrap up here, where can people find you? I’m going to put
all your links and information, your bio, everything for you, your book, your
programs in the show notes so people can find it on the cutter consulting
Ahearn: 39:22 But
where can people find you? Where can people reach out to you? What’s the best
place? Well, I would say start with LinkedIn. I accept everybody and if then
what I would ask is tell me why you’re reaching out. Tell me that you’ve
listened to the podcast. So I know when people reach out to me and they don’t
tell me, I shoot a message back and say, I’m curious, how did you come across
my profile? I like to understand why I’m getting the traffic. So reach out to
me to connect on LinkedIn. From there you’ll see all kinds of stuff, but
certainly my website influenced people. Dot Biz has all kinds of resources.
I’ve been blogging weekly for the last 10 years. I’ve got lots of videos, I’ve
got links to podcasts that I’d been on. And as you mentioned, I just came out
Ahearn: 40:03 So
if people want to really dig in deeper into this as called influence people
with the subtitle, powerful everyday opportunities to persuade that are lasting
and ethical. That’s perfect. I appreciate it. Brian, thanks for being on the
show and it was such a pleasure talking with you. Yeah, I, I really enjoyed it.
Jason. Thank you for having me on. All right. And everyone, like I said, you
can find the transcript, the show notes, everything on the cutter consulting
group.com website. Make sure to subscribe to the show, iTunes, Stitcher,
Spotify. You can find it on Soundcloud, Google play. That’s it for this
And as always, remember that
everything in life is sales and people remember the experience you gave them.
