Baby Got Backstory

• Marty Neumeier’s Story: From Grade School to College Graduate

• 9:13 - 9:25 (12 sec MN) Why is it that sometimes my work...it was accidentally on strategy.

1. Branding is a field that brings business people and creative people together. - MN 

Founder of ghSMART & Co, Geoff Smart is sharing how he studied under Peter Drucker and found his calling to help businesses solve their number one problem; who to hire and how to bring them on the team. As the creator of a Fortune 500 company that is regularly voted one of the top businesses to work for, Geoff tells us his step by step process of hiring with a 90% success rate. Prepare yourself to learn crucial information in how to build your dream team.

• The Number One Problem in Business Today

ghSMART & Co is one of the best leadership consulting firms in the world. Geoff Smart discusses the number one problem in business today, hiring. When asked, CEOs report that the top two problems today are talent and technology disruption.

The current practices of businesses hiring process can be said to be ineffective, inefficient, and miss the mark by a mile. This isn’t necessarily their fault. A “good hiring” process isn’t being taught in school. Most frame the interview around hypothetical situations and questions. This only gives you hypothetical answers.

Geoff gives us his highly successful step by step hiring process, information that top companies pay thousands of dollars to learn. Are you ready to elevate your company by building your dream team?

Who: The A Method for Hiring by Geoff Smart Leadocracy: Hiring More Great Leaders (Like You) into Government by Geoff Smart Power Score: Your Formula for Leadership Success by Geoff Smart

Wildstory

• 10:55 - 11:18 (23 sec GS) One of the principles of good hiring...daunting challenge of picking the right people.

1. One fad is to ask people hypothetical questions. When you ask people hypothetical questions, they give you hypothetical answers. And those answers don’t tend to be grounded in reality about how people actually behave or perform on the job. GS

Geoff Smart 0:02 You know, when you're in a great job, like your life is great. Like, it just is like, we spend so much of our, our lives working. You know, if you're really engaged in your in your work and you love your job, it's a wonderful thing and that if that job fits really well, it has a huge effect on your life satisfaction. And if a job is mismatching, you know the personality of your colleagues as wrong as kind of offer the actual work itself, the content of the work, they really like, you know, it can be really miserable. Marc Gutman 0:35 podcasting, Boulder, Colorado. This is the baby got backstory podcast. we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big back stories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman. I'm Marc Gutman in today's special episode of baby Got backstory. part two of our interview with hiring expert Dr. Geoff smart of gh smart. In our last episode, Geoff shared his story of how he studied under legendary business guru Peter Drucker and found his calling to help businesses solve their number one problem, who to hire, who to bring on the team. After spending years studying this question and working with thousands of companies, Geoff is back to share his process for hiring the right person. Every time I improve this stuff works. And the good news is you can do it yourself. Listen closely as Geoff shares his process. This is the secret goods people. This is the stuff Geoff's clients pay huge fees for and you can get it right here. Right now. So, Geoff, I'm looking at your book right now, on the covering. It's called "Who" On the cover and really big type. It says solve your number one problem. Yeah, what is the number one problem we need to solve? Geoff Smart 2:13 So the number one problem is hiring. And that's based on an economist cover article from a few years ago, it declared after surveying thousands or 10s of thousands of business and government leaders, like what's the biggest problem facing our world, it's talent. And so also top universities, poll CEOs all the time, every year you know, hey, what are the biggest things on your, on your mind? and talent and technology? disruption are typically one in two and talent and being like, you know, how do you hire and develop talented teams, so our marketing people at Random House or publisher, or like write a book on hiring is sounds boring and it sounds like an HR manual. So let's not market it like hey, here's like the world's greatest book on hiring Instead, let's make this the nothing short of the solution to your number one problem. And so I liked that I appreciated their guidance. That's why we call it who, because that's, you know, when you're in boardrooms or you're hanging out with government leaders or you're hanging out with entrepreneurs, the you know, some of those important sensitive, scary exciting conversations are around like Who are we hiring or who's not working out in our company who might need to get fired? Who this who that Who should we pair with this important initiative? So the who questions we thought Oh, also deserve the title who because the who stuffs your number one problem also thanks a nod out to Jim Collins. Good to Great first get the right people on the on the bus and in the right seats. And he he has a quote in good degrade I hope I get this right. I said the the most important decisions in business are not the what decisions. They're the who decisions. So according to the economist, according to leading universities who survey thousand CEOs, According to Jim Collins himself, this topic of hiring and picking the right people and building a talented team is the number one problem in business. So we set out to write the the top selling book on the number one problem in business. And we did and so that's that feels good, like the whole circle was completed. It's like here's this daunting challenge that so many business leaders say they struggle with, let's use our our research and our experiences with clients and try to you know, shape a nice simple framework to help leaders solve their number one problem. Marc Gutman 4:48 It is a problem and I feel a little like guilty admitting this, but until I heard you speak and I read your book, I like hated hiring. I'm like, I loathed it. Like it was something that like, made me feel it. And now I can't say that I love it today. I'm better now and thanks to your book and your, in your methodology. It's helped me quite a bit. But I get the feeling that you love it. Like what do you if that's true, what do you love about it? Geoff Smart 5:16 What's wrong with me? Why do I learned because here's why, it's important. When you get it wrong. It's painful and costly when you get it right. It's a company maker. And so so just, you know, doesn't matter as a matter. Yeah, like it matters so much. So that's one reason I like it. The other reason I like it is, most people do it wrong. They just do it wrong. They do it the wrong way, according to a century of research by thousands of academics and lots of consultants who study this stuff for a living, and by doing it, but by having most people doing it wrong, that provides an edge or a source of competitive advantage for those who choose to learn how Do it right. And so it's fun. It's like a superpower. It's like you go when there's a government leader, or we're working with a governor. And you know how, if you can imagine and in government land, hiring a cabinet, you know, your top team, your top like 20 leaders, after you just won an election in November, and then you've got like a month and a half until your inauguration to like, higher, higher higher up this whole team from scratch. The hiring success rates of governors putting their cabinets together is abysmal. So if you get them to be honest, they would admit it's even worse than the 50% hiring success rate that business people say that they achieved. So imagine all the problems that causes at scale, right? Oh, you know, in government or business or wherever, or if you have like a, you know, a 50% or worse, hiring success rate. taxpayer dollars get wasted. Fraud happens, you know, dishonesty happens, bad results happen. So I love the main reason I love hirings just because I feel like it really is the most important question to get right. And in any organization you're trying to lead, and the fact that we have knowledge about, you know, good methods and bad methods. And, and, and it's not widespread, and most people do it wrong, makes that extra exciting as well. Marc Gutman 7:21 Yeah, why do we do it wrong? I mean, we're, you know, we're kind of smart people as a whole as a species. Like why did we get this wrong? Why can't we figure this thing out? Geoff Smart 7:30 Yeah. So unlike finance and accounting, 101 and marketing, and you know, other disciplines that have clear methods that we get taught in school, good hiring until fairly recently hasn't been taught anywhere you don't learn it in high school, you don't take a class on it in college, and even at some of the best business schools in the world are my colleagues will go teach a you know, one class period on on on good hiring methods. You know, across a two year MBA program, so the short answers, you know, you're, you're not taught how to do it. And then like, Well, why can't we come up with hiring methods that are intuitive or whatever? It's because our intuition is wrong a lot. For example, one very common way to interview people for jobs is to ask them hypothetical questions. And this is like a whole fad that started in the 90s. And you see it today, people, you know, Hey, Marc, how would you resolve a conflict with a colleague? How would you How would you it's a hypothetical question. And then marc goes, Oh, you know, I would sit that colleague down, and we'd have a conversation about our goals. And we would work through our differences. And we'd come up with a win win solution, and say, Oh, great. So what do we know about Marc? We don't know anything about marc, we just know that marc can say what he would do in a hypothetical situation. It seems like useful data. It's just not. When you ask people hypothetical questions. They give you hypothetical answers. And those answers don't tend to be grounded in reality about How they actually behave or perform on the job. So they're like a bunch of things like that, that, that once I pointed out, you might go. Oh, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, asking people hypothetical questions is dumb. But if you go watch 100 managers, interviewing people's fresh off campuses, or for not for profits or in governments are not for profits, you know, big, big ones are or businesses. There's a ton of that hypothetical interviewing going on. So anyway, it's like, you know, you don't get taught it. People invent their own intuitive approaches. I had one guy, I remembered a semiconductor company, tell me or tell a bunch of us I was doing a keynote over a lunchtime retreat, this company was having he, at the beginning of my thing. He said, I know, I know, you're going to tell us the Holy Grail for hiring. But he's like, I just got to share this really great approach that I use for hiring people. And I said, well, what's that? And he said, Yeah, I like to ask people what kind of animal animal they'd be, and why. And everyone kinda laughed to that. I said, Well, how do you know what the right answer is? And he said, I developed a whole, you know, a whole matrix of like, what different, different answers mean? And I'm like, Oh, that's great. What? And how has it helped you be a successful hiring manager? And he said, No, no, I'm terrible at hiring, but at least it cuts the boredom of the process. So it's like, why are we bad at hiring, we're bad at hiring because the best methods aren't taught to us in school, and aren't really taught to us on the job. And then, you know, you kind of fill the void with intuitive approaches that you think might work but, you know, aren't really grounded in science or reality. I'm also people, it's awkward, right? I mean, sitting and trying to, you know, get to know somebody is a bit awkward. I think a lot of people feel just simply uncomfortable with it. So they try to talk about the weather or sports teams or they sort of talk about anything and you know, one of the principles of good interviewing and hiring us, you're not supposed to talk about just anything because If you are just making conversation with somebody that's not a very, like data driven way to evaluate their capabilities, and it's just like chatting, chatting doesn't make for good interviews, but is the way that a lot of untrained folks default when they're faced with the daunting challenge of, of picking the right people. Marc Gutman 11:18 Yeah, and I also think, you know, a couple things, you know, just from my own experience, it takes a lot of work. It's not easy, so just anything that's good, it takes some work and you got to put some, put some work into it. And also like, as you start to get down the process, like I personally start to feel bad like I have this like, guilt about you know, bringing people through a process and and I could tell myself look, this is all about making sure it's a right fit for them and that they're gonna be successful long term, but I do have this like, sense of like, I feel bad and like, you know, and I've even made bad hiring decisions because I feel bad. And of course, we know those don't work out but, and I've experienced that myself. Geoff Smart 11:52 Yeah, I hear you. You're nice and you're empathetic. And yeah, you're judging people. Like it's a weird thing. It's a weird kind of almost like A natural structure for to be judging people. But to your point, yeah, if you're better at both sides, the employee perspective in play and the hiring manager, use better methods for judging the other one, then you'll have a greater chance of a good match happening and when a good match happens, I guess that's one of the other thing is I just really feel strongly about and why I love this topic of hiring is, you know, when you're in a great job, like your life is great. Like, it just is like, we spend so much of our, our lives working. If you're really engaged in your in your work and you love your job. It's a wonderful thing, and that if the job fits really well, it has a huge effect on your life satisfaction. And if a job is a mismatch, ie you know, the personality of your colleagues as wrong as kind of off or the actual work itself, the content of the work, they don't really like, you know, it can be really miserable. And I saw something I think it was a Gallup poll, maybe six months ago, that only I'm going to get this number wrong by a few percentages that Something like only 29% of people love their jobs and the rest don't and that's sad to me so I think yeah two point on it takes hard work on both sides to really figure out if a job is a good fit and maybe that explains partially why folks who get busy and you know have so many entrepreneurs I know you know feel like they have so many fires to put out it's very difficult and it's understandably difficult for them to sit down and you know, have write out a scorecard and you know, do some of the other best practices to to increase the the hiring success rate. Marc Gutman 13:37 This episode brought to you by wild story. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of wild story, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. Speaking consists of other things that can create issues around that. And right now we're in the middle as you mentioned, a big pandemic and like how is your current How is the current situation changed your thinking on hiring and leadership like like, how are you approaching this in a different matter? Are you? Geoff Smart 14:54 Yeah, let's see here. So let's let's think about this for a moment. So the principles Good hiring, I think still apply, we could talk about those later. But as you're creating the criteria for who you're hiring, or as you're actually doing interviews by video or by phone rather than in person, I think it actually slightly increases the importance of making sure all the checklist items are hit, because you can't just throw time in person time with with someone as a solution to the problem. So you know, like maybe pre pandemic even allows the hiring process can work pretty well. If you just spend a ton of ton of ton of in person time with with the people you're thinking about hiring like so that's, that's kind of like a bad return on investment. timewise. But you can get to a pretty good answer just by spending a ton of time in person with people. Well, you can't do that in a pandemic. So guess what? You have to default then to the best practices and be more like surgical with how you spend time with folks. By video or by phone, doing reference calls, etc, you gotta like, do all that stuff if you want to achieve 90% hiring success, which is what the goal is the goal is to have 90% hiring success versus 50% hiring success by by following the steps. And then I think as your, I think it's and it's just harder. So you better have a much better value proposition for an employee, if you expect him or her to leave a great company and join your company in the middle of a pandemic. So I think the energy and the empathy required to really bond with someone and to have them trust you enough to leave their perfectly good job in the middle of a pandemic and join your company is higher, I think the bar is higher than in a, you know, than in a more stable environment. So bottom line is, I think it's just as important as it always is. And I think it's even more important that folks follow a discipline process to get it right. Marc Gutman 16:56 Yeah, and you know, and there's people going to be, you know, it's hard, hard to get someone to But also, given what we're seeing in the headlines and what we know, anecdotally, there's potentially some really great candidates out there that can come join your company. And yes, be that difference maker in a way and that they're going to be looking for things like you talked about, like that Harvard case studies student talked about, like, why should I come join your company? And also, you know, finding that right match or there's some principles of good hiring, that you're able to share with, you know, with the audience so that they might be able to get a leg up? Geoff Smart 17:29 Sure. You bet. And I'm with you on that. I think it's smart to because it's hard to forecast in this environment, demand and revenue. I think it's smart to follow these great steps for hiring that I'm about to describe, but then maybe hold on just a moment and not actually start the person right away, but to build kind of like a virtual bench of talent, that as the business conditions get increasingly clearer and you can forecast you know, revenue etc, then all of a sudden, you can like snap all these great folks off the bat. So, so just like a little bit of caution there, because I think it is hard no matter what industry folks are in today, other than hospitals and maybe Amazon, it's hard to know what you're doing, you know, obviously, tons of activity these days, it's hard to forecast revenue. So in the environment, like like we're in right now, with increased importance. These are the four steps of good hiring, that we find are associated with a 90% hiring success rate. Now imagine, Marc, you hired 10 people, like nine out of 10 people work out great. And we define hiring success super simply, just as a year after you hire the person, are you glad you hired them or not? And so, if the goal is 90% hiring success, here are the four steps and these are outlined in our book, and they're super important in the during a time of crisis. One The first step is called the scorecard. And so one big mistake in hiring is is just using like the name of a job as a, as a proxy for a scorecard. Like we're trying to hire a marketing coordinator. Okay, well, what does that actually mean? You know, what do you need the person to deliver? What are the outcomes that you'll you'll measure their success based on? So what are the competencies that are really important for this role and for our, our firm? Um, so that first step is creating a scorecard writing out basically like the criteria of what you expect the person to accomplish is step one, step two, is called the source step. And there's a couple ways to do that. Well, actually, one unexpected way to source lots of good candidates is to pay incentives here existing employees to source people, and it can be like 500 bucks, or, you know, dinner out, or, you know, as much as $10,000, we've heard, aren't like to offer a referral fee to existing employees to do the hard work to really source in more good people. So that's One, one hint on source. On the third step is called the Select step. So this is this is where the interviews are really important. So in the Select step, you need to have a good intro interview where you know, you try not to be too eager, you know, and you basically just have like a career conversation with someone, you know, what are your career goals? What are some of your strengths? What are some of the things you're not as good at, you'd have like a really kind of enjoyable, substantive, initial call with someone that's like, we call that the screening interview. And then when you have, when you've narrowed down the list of candidates for like a key job to maybe two or three, then you you wheel out the heavy artillery. And you do one of these who interviews, which is long, it's like two hours plus for a senior hire, where you sit there and interview them about their their whole life kind of in chronological order. So starting back in the school age, what were some highlights and lowlights of the school years, and then let's talk about each job and talk about What you're hired to do, and what you accomplished, and what some low points were, and mistakes, who you worked with, and like, what what your boss was like to work with, and what your boss would say, was like working with you. And then Why'd you leave that job and what comes next. So doing like a really thorough walkthrough someone's resume in chronological order, like that is a really key step. And then the final step, the fourth and final step, we call sell, which is once you've decided, hey, this person really has accomplished great things against the scorecard. We want them you know, we're very confident that they're going to do a great job, then you have to figure out how to sell them and to your earlier question, like how do you persuade them to leave another company and trust you, you know, especially during a time of crisis, and join your company, and we we did a big study for the who book of successful entrepreneurs and we asked them like, how did you sell people on joining your company, and generally, it was like a checklist of like, one or more of five things that make Someone want to join your company. And they all start with the letter F, as in Foxtrot. So fit. So sell them on the fit, Hey, your strengths and talents match, you know, like this, you fit what we're what we're all about your values etc. Family, which is basically like hey, you know zere if you have a significant other are they? Are they comfortable with you joining our firm? Do they have any questions like, you know how and obviously it's a steer clear of asking people questions like whether they're pregnant or planning on having a baby anytime soon or asking any questions that are not appropriate for for an interview. But you can certainly ask people if they're, if they're relevant family members or supportive of their taking a new job, whether your company, what else fortune is a third app, it's like telling people what they're likely to make and not be guessing them. But just showing them how their compensation is calculated, and what it could be expected to grow to over the next few years about very important So clarity is key freedom. So I'm deciding what freedoms people will have working for you, is really key. Everybody really wants a high degree of freedom these days. And so emphasizing that as pretty key and fun as the last one. So basically, hey, what's fun about working at your company, and it's like, what the actual content of the work, you know, the teamwork, that collegiality, letting them talk to people and really get a sense for what's fun about working at your company is the fifth and final F, and the five F's for selling. So those are like the almost like a checklist that we use that we teach our clients to use around, you know, let's make sure we're communicating a brand message for hire for joining this company that hits you know, one or more of those five apps that are important to the person. Marc Gutman 23:48 Well, thanks for sharing that. And you know, I know this is all supported and comes out of years and years of study and years of years of science and work but like as you go through the steps, it doesn't sound that bad. All Geoff Smart 24:00 right. Thank you. Yeah, I love that. And so it's weird. It's people who've read our books or clients say things like, yeah, this is like, really common sense. But it's kind of uncommon practice. Marc Gutman 24:14 Yeah. And and I can I can speak from experience of going through it gives you a framework, it gives you an ability. I mean, I'm an emotional as you mentioned person, and I can tend to let that get in the way of my decisions, versus really tying things to outcomes like you outlined in the scorecard. And we we hire people, we wonder, why can't they do this thing that we wanted, because we didn't tell them and we didn't lay it out, or they don't know yet how they're being measured. So really appreciate you laying out those four steps as well as the five apps and in for everyone that's interested, that's definitely in the handbook and in detail, and because it does go into depth and gives it great examples on that book as well. So thanks a lot for that, Geoff. You bet. So Geoff, what's next for you in gh smart? Geoff Smart 24:57 Wow, what's next? All right. That's fun question. Let's see here. So our growth story is pretty simple. There's nothing next for me. It's I'm just I love my job. I love being chairman and founder of ghsmart is an awesome platform. So I will continue to play my role, every now and then I like to do a stint in some form of public service. So like a few years ago, I took nine months off to work full time for a governor that was up for reelection, who was trying to figure out whether or not to keep the team intact, like, you know, sir, who is going to stay who is not going to stay in the team. So I was like chief talent Officer of a 20,000 person $30 billion budget, state. And that was super fun. So that was, so I'd like to stay with gh smart, continue to do my work as chairman and founder here, and then kind of toggle out for brief stints of public service helping leaders of whether it's not for profits or government To to hire, and develop talented teams. It's kind of my thing I like I just really enjoy that, that work. And that's about it. So my role is this plus some community service public service since in the future that the firm's future is like focusing on three things. So, with our SEO clients, we only help them with a narrow set of problems. And so we want to keep widening the problems that we help our SEO clients to solve. So for example, back in the early days of gh smart, we're very focused on helping CEOs and investors, assessing senior talent like that was it that's all we did, and then we added coaching, so we're going to assess the talent, we're going to coach the talent, and then we move from the individual focus to more of a team focus. So today, we help senior leaders and their teams, you know, hire and develop talent and run the team at full power, as we say, in the future, you know, I think they're gonna be awesome. there other things, other problems that CEOs face that are leadership oriented that we can help them solve. We don't do any compensation work today. We don't do any large scale, organizational culture monitoring kind of work today like aligning culture to strategy. There's just a bunch of things that we could do for CEOs that we, we just don't have solutions for yet. So take, you know, kind of continue to expand the set of solutions that we offer, which is number one. Number two is geographic expansion. So there with 12 offices around the US and only one internationally, it's in London. We started at three years ago. It's doing great. And we'd like to expand from London to continental Europe. So that's, that's on the docket for the near term. We'd like to open a Southeast Asian hub in the next three years or so. Probably Singapore or possibly Hong Kong, and then expand in Asia that way. And then at that point, figure out what our Latin American Europe or Latin America Can Middle East and Africa expansion plans are. So geographic expansion is a second party. And then the third one is a little bit longer term, it's using digital technology to first help our consultants. be smarter, no pun intended, and serving clients, you know, with advanced data analytics and predictive analytics and that kind of thing. And we have this huge database of all these, all these successful and unsuccessful careers, folks for 25 years that we've, we've studied and gotten outcome data for. So figuring out how to use artificial intelligence and machine learning to make our consultants that much smarter with their advice and counsel on helping you hire helping you manage your career. And then, you know, creating new products and services using technology beyond just consulting to companies would be the longer term goal on our product and services expansion. So like maybe one day you know ghsmart will primarily be a management consulting leader. advisory firm as we are today, but it'd be really neat to have two or three or four other business units that, you know, still serve the same overall brand vision of helping leaders be successful. But do it in different ways, whether it's, you know, products or database access or other automated services, who knows, maybe one day we'll go and, you know, we'll, we'll create matching technologies to help you know, the, the marks of the future, manage your career strategy, and to be able to get real time probabilistic data from us on choices. You're thinking about making like, Oh, hey, if you want to turn left in your career, that has a 6% chance of making you happy if you turn right, it's gonna as a 94% chance of making you happy, you know, to apply statistics and probabilities. I tell people make more confident decisions with their careers and with how they lead their teams. It's kind of a medium term, pet project that we're putting a bunch of into these days. So in summary, what's future future for the firm is do more for CEOs. Number one, number two is carefully expand geographically. And then number three is invest in digital technologies to make our, our work that much more valuable for our clients, and that much more enjoyable to deliver for our people. Marc Gutman 30:20 And I have no doubt that you'll be able to make that happen. Geoff, as we wrap up here, if you ran into your 20 year old self, what do you think he'd say to you today? Geoff Smart 30:31 I think my 20 year old self would say, Good job for staying true to a few things that really important. Family is super important to me. So I, the way I grew gh smart, has allowed me to, you know, put family first and so that's something when I was 20. I was like, I really want to do interesting things in my career, but I really would love to have a successful family. So today I have seven kids. perfect wife Lauren, and I've got two kids on the We're pregnant with twins that are coming. We're pregnant. She's pregnant with twins are coming in July. So we'll have nine kids if you can believe that. Marc Gutman 31:07 Congratulations. That's incredible. Geoff Smart 31:09 Yeah, this massive amount of children. We're very, very family focused. And I make a ton of time for my family so I feel good about that. I don't live with regrets of like, Oh, you know entrepreneur has been great but you know, missed out on family. So I think family success, I'd be proud of the 20 year old me was looking forward. And then on the smart side and just the entrepreneurial side, I really do feel good about my colleagues and employment opportunity that they they get and seem to really enjoy here. And then the value that clients are getting. So I think the 20 year old me 20 year old me would have said that maybe the like 30 year old man should have invested more energy and software earlier and kind of like, you know, had something to show for the the, you know, the rise of technology. It doesn't pissed me off a little bit that Google was founded a year after my firm was, and you know, like, yeah, and we're 120 people and we did 70 million in revenue last year, which is like great nothing to sneeze at. But yeah, I'd say like 20 year old me would have shaken his head and said, Hey, you should have gotten you know, more of a dog in the technology hunt earlier. So just to be balanced, but overall, I don't know 20 year old me Would it be like yeah, keep keep up the good work on on putting family first Keep up the good work on hiring people and giving them a ton of freedom and having them really you know, enjoy their work and have a life outside of work. And I guess the 20 year old me would have courage me today to keep innovating and keep you know, the foot on the gas pedal of experimenting and never getting to like smugger or believing believing our own press a few well so staying humble and I guess like kind of like the the Andy Grove but see Have Intel enough paranoid to, to always work hard and push against our overall business strategy and making sure that we're living by the values and the credo. So yeah, I think net net, my 20 year old self would would be pretty happy, while also giving me some advice and things that I should be focused on for the future. Marc Gutman 33:25 Thank you. Thank you. Thank you to Geoff smart and ghsmart and company. I can't express what value the information you share today is. Thank you. Oh, and if you and I were in an interview, and you asked me what animal I'd be, probably a turtle. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS, so you'll never miss an episode. I like big backstories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can't deny.

Geoff Smart, founder and chairman of ghSMART & Co is sharing how his dream of having a fulfilling job and great life turned into one of the most successful hiring firms in the world. Geoff routinely advises Fortune 500 CEOs, billionaire entrepreneurs, and heads of states and discusses the importance of being a servant leader along with the companies he has looked up to over the years. Geoff shares how failure led to his own business launch and how you can sustain job satisfaction within your company. This conversation was so great and informative, that this is only part 1 of 2. Prepare to be inspired by one man who took his dream and made it a reality.

• Geoff Smart’s Story: From Young Interests to a World-Renowned Leadership Company

Living in Chicago, at the age of 8, George wanted to be either a CIA agent or newscaster, but as he grew, his dreams changed. In high school, Geoff was already interested in leadership. He was reading books by Tom Peters, Peter Drucker, and Milton Friedman. As a leader in sports and his school paper, his interest in leadership took hold and grew to a passion. With a father as an industrial psychologist, Geoff had a wonderful mentor right at home. He studied Economics at Northwestern when his mother scored him an internship at a venture capital firm where he learned that it’s not what you invest in, but who you invest in. Following college, Geoff was lucky enough to get to study under Peter Drucker, the “Founder of Modern Management”. After Geoff failed to get an internship at McKinsey & Co Consulting, he founded his own company. Geoff also shares that he decided to develop his own business because of his desire to help others with a more methodical approach to leadership, as well as his belief that “those that want to work hard and have an impact can also have a life”. It was at this time that ghSMART & Co was born.

The story of how ghSMART & Co got its name is interesting, but a story that Geoff is proud of. The “gh” are his first two initials, but he decided to make them lower case because he wanted to be sure others knew he was a servant leader. The last part, SMART, is all capitals because Geoff says it’s his colleagues that put the SMART in ghSMART. It also emulates one of the companies Smart looked up to while doing his doctoral dissertation, McKinsey & Co. It’s these small details and practices that Geoff uses which has helped foster a positive culture and skyrocketed his retention rate to over 90%!

Put innovation to work. Listen to thoughts and ideas from clients & colleagues. If there’s some part of your work description that you no longer like or others can do better, delegate it or give it to someone who is better at it. Geoff’s definition of leadership is “helping a group of people figure out what it wants, and then formulate & execute a plan to get it”. When Geoff was talking about their brandstory, he said they have three ideas that intersect. 1) Maximize the positive impact you’re making. 2) Do work that really matters. 3) Get paid for it so you can have a life outside of work! Are you living your brand story?

Who: The A Method for Hiring by Geoff Smart Leadocracy: Hiring More Great Leaders (Like You) into Government by Geoff Smart Power Score: Your Formula for Leadership Success by Geoff Smart

Wildstory

• 32:40 - 33:23 (43 sec GS) - Guarantee the thing that’s hardest, but most important to your customer...if we are not successful, you don’t pay.

1. Who you hire can make, or break, a company. - GS

Geoff Smart 0:02 And he pulls me aside like forcefully grabs my shoulder like almost in cotton comfortably so like a real rough shoulder graph and he leans in to whisper in my ear. He said, You know I like the vision for for your business, but it's too ambitious and nobody likes a know it all. And he said it in a whisper at about 100 decibel because his mic picked it up and like that 50 people behind me to start laughing because I just basically got schooled by Peter Drucker on the value of humility when you know when creating a business plan. Marc Gutman 0:39 podcasting from Boulder, Colorado, this is the baby got backstory podcast, we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host Marc Gutman. Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby Got Back story. How a dream to have a fulfilling job in a great life turned into one of the most successful hiring firms in the world. I don't know about you, but I hate hiring. I hate everything about it. I hate that I don't know what I'm doing. Or if I'm doing it right, or if the person I'm about to bring on the team will be awesome, or a complete disaster. Or at least that's how I used to feel about hiring. Until a few years back, I had the privilege of hearing Geoff Smart of gh smart speak. I remember looking at his name on the agenda in thinking, Oh, no, hiring yuck. But it's in these moments when we think we know our perspective on a topic that we are usually totally surprised. I was captivated by Geoff's story and his methodologies. And after I saw him speak, I read his book and then implemented his process. I read a ton of business books. And I would have to say that who Geoff's book on hiring is in my all time top five. Because as Geoff shares with us who you hire, will make or break a company, and it's totally actionable, I was able to implement what Geoff teaches immediately and see the results. Geoff knew from an early age that he wanted to help people and quickly saw that it wasn't what you did, but who you did it with. And this is his story. Geoff, let's talk about how your story starts. I mean, let's go back to the beginning. Did you dream of all this? Did you dream of an existence to help leaders amplify their positive impact on the world and when you were a kid, like what was life like for eight year old Geoff, what was your credo back then? Geoff Smart 2:57 Thanks, Mark. It's a pleasure to be on your show. I always thought I wanted to be an entrepreneur. There's just something exciting about the idea of you know, inventing something, or or creating a business from nothing in the let's see here, winding the clock back to the the eight year old me wanted to be an a CIA agent or or a newscaster. I did like the idea of analytics and doing impactful things. I was a CIA draw. And then the idea of using verbal or written communication to tell stories and to help people was the job of becoming a newscaster. So that was the the early roots around age eight the idea for gh smart came to me as a college freshman. I was studying economics. My mom actually had scored me an internship working at a venture capital firm. And what I was struck by was, how the name of the game for succeeding and that field was I kept hearing all about not what you invest in, but who you invest in. And yet all these investors were spending all their time, you know, looking at products and looking, you know, forecasting financials and doing all this, all this what stuff when it seems like the key to success, lay more in the who, so that the kernel of the idea for the firm was born in '91. And then I actually ended up founding our firm, June 16 1995. Marc Gutman 4:28 Nice. Where'd you grow up? Where did you you spend your formative years? Geoff Smart 4:31 Yeah, I grew up in the Chicagoland area. Some I'm from Chicago. And those are my formative years, and I've lived in Los Angeles. And now for the last dozen years or so. I've lived in Colorado. Marc Gutman 4:45 Yeah. And you mentioned your mother. What did your parents do for a living? What was what was the upbringing the influence like there? Geoff Smart 4:51 Yeah, my mom was a speech therapist. So she she got a master's degree in, in speech therapy. So we all my sister Kate, and I had to have Be very articulate growing up, mark two, because my mom would help us with our Annunciation, my father was a had a PhD in industrial psychology, which he would tell you, he, he kind of like, took a class and college, loved it and gotten to that field, which is basically like the, the formal process of, of studying human behavior as it relates to work. So he was obviously a big mentor in the early days hearing stories of, of helping advise companies on their people problems. So those are, those were my two parental influences. And I have a younger sister Kate, who is more socially skilled than I was always more popular and as a as a great person. She lives in the Chicagoland area today. Marc Gutman 5:49 That's always the younger sister Kate, who's more socially aware and more popular. It's just the way it goes. Geoff Smart 5:53 Yes. embarrassingly So, for me as I'm slightly more introverted And focus on my studies that my sister seemed like she always had, you know, 10 to 20 friends over at the house at any given time. Marc Gutman 6:06 So when you you know, heard your dad come home from work and talk about his day and talk about the importance of of leadership and dynamics in the workplace. I mean, was that something that was interesting to you at the time? Or were you kind of not interested in where you are, like thinking of other things like what were you into in like high school? Geoff Smart 6:22 Yeah, the topic of leadership always was very, very interesting to me. So, as a big bookworm, so Tom Peters, Peter Drucker, Milton Friedman, the economist who is all about freedom. These were early books I read that really, really resonated so yeah, through through leadership, I guess in sports and leadership and you know, like running this high school newspaper and, you know, little things like that early on, and then reading these you know, books about how to effectively lead your team. You know, it really was a passion area. I always felt like the difference between elevating the quality of human life or having human life, life be harmed is, you know, comes down to leadership, whether it's governments, military businesses, etc. So yeah, I've always been a big fan of the topic of leadership and always curious and interested in, in what other people think, are the keys to success. So that was a real interest early on. And so there's fun. This is let's see, the 90s private equity was kind of becoming a big deal as a career strategy consulting and investment banking were still very popular. So but I coming out of college didn't go right to work. Instead, I went and got a masters and a PhD in psychology, focused on business as you know, in business, they call it organizational behavior. in psychology, they call it you know, organizational psychology, but I got to go study with Peter Drucker out in Clermont in California, he was about 80 years old at the time and had long been concerned. The father of management so is it's kind of like Sitting at the feet of Socrates and learning from the master. And it was good fun and surfing on the weekends. So it was really the best of both worlds. Marc Gutman 8:12 Drucker in surfing, it sounds like a documentary that Yeah. Geoff Smart 8:16 It was really great fun as seriously good times. Marc Gutman 8:20 Yeah. For our listeners who don't know, can you give a 32nd primer on who Peter Drucker is and why he's relevant. Geoff Smart 8:27 Yeah, you bet. So the study of leadership and management really became formalized about, I don't know, 70 years ago or so. Peter Drucker was a Austrian journalist. And he was just fascinated with with the success or failure of organizations. So he could have made, you know, millions or billions, but instead decided to stay academic. So he taught at Claremont for decades and decades, just outside of Los Angeles. And I remember, you know, for example, here's how big a deal he was. When he was just sort of in his free time, advising CEOs, like ag lafley, the CEO of Procter and Gamble, would fly in. And, you know, take a limo out to Peter's house and they would just sort of like float in. And Peter Drucker's pool it a little pool in his backyard. And, and I asked, Well, you know, how much do you charge for that? Just out of curiosity? I remember Peter he said $50,000. I said, $50,000 to flow into your pool. And he said, Yeah, you got to charge something otherwise people don't take the advice seriously. And so that was kind of in a you know, it was fascinating studying with me. I think he's written more Harvard Business Review articles, and more top selling books on on management than anybody. That's why if you like Wikipedia, Peter Drucker, they refer to him as the father of the field of management. Marc Gutman 9:52 Yeah, and he really mean at that time, and even before it was like the movie stars business still is I mean, I'm looking around and I'm like, surrounded by Peter Drucker books, and Yeah, and things like that. I mean, if you know, those are the first things you know, when you get mentored, someone says, You know what, go read this book, the five most important questions, you know, you need to, you need to you need to learn some Peter Drucker. So thank you for sharing that. I think it's important to give context. And so you're there, you're in Claremont, you're, you're doing your thing you went and you found a mentor, and Peter. And now Do you know what you're gonna do after? Do you have a sense? Are you just collecting the knowledge are you just, you know, because that's the way I approached my university study, I just I kind of went, I was going to use that to figure out what I wanted to do, but I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Geoff Smart 10:33 So in contrast to going to college, I was at Northwestern studied economics. I didn't know what I wanted to do. At that point, I had had that internship with a venture capital firm, but by the time I graduated, I made a very conscious choice, to study with Peter Drucker to go do a PhD. And and to really like double click on this area of hiring leaders, either from the perspective of a venture capitalist, how do you bet on the right people or that that perspective of You know, a CEO or a board, you know, how do you pick the right leader? So I was actually very focused and on wanting to get, you know, deep and experienced and an expert on that, that specific leadership question. So, I grad schools for years. The PhD dissertation that I did was specifically on studying how venture capitalists evaluate and then choose to who to invest in. And it was fun. There's a famous venture capitalist private equity investor named Henry Kravis, you know, from KKR. Marc Gutman 11:32 Yep. Geoff Smart 11:33 He went to he went to the school, he went to Claremont or grad school, so I called him up to be in my study. And his assistant told me No, thank you. And I called her a second time. She said, No, I called her a third time begging her. I'm like, Hey, I'm a PhD student. I'm doing a topic that I think is going to be of interest to to Mr. Travis, you know, he's sure he you know, he won't be in my study. I'd really love to get us participation. So she Basically just told me to stop calling. But I didn't mark as we were entrepreneurs or are persistent. So I called her a fourth time. And I told her that I would stop calling and bugging her. If she would please just show him this, like one paragraph description of the study that I was working on. And if he said No, I wouldn't call back again. But if he said yes, then you know we would do. So she said, All right, hold please if she walked in his office, and came back about 30 seconds later and she said, Mr. Kravis, has agreed to be in your class project. I said, Oh, great. So once I got in a billionaire private equity tycoon, a Henry Kravis, in my study, I rapidly got over 50 private equity firms to jump in and be in it. And what I did basically was study how they evaluate management teams. And I looked at half a century of research on what you know what should be the best practices, and then I tested them and I found that investors who followed century of the best practices of of hiring and picking teams Ended up being successful and making more money than those who didn't. And so then that became the colonel for gh smart. And I kind of took that show on the road, told the story. And so our early clients were, were these investor types. And then later we branched out and served, you know, CEOs more broadly. Marc Gutman 13:19 Yeah. And you you've kind of alluded to, you know, when you had that first job of studying economics, or not, so you were studying economics, we had the first job that your mom got you at the Yes, it was, I think it was a venture PE firm. And then you had the kernel, you're like, Oh, my gosh, like, you know, everyone's saying, like, we got to invest in people. And now you have this, you know, where did that interest really blossom between there and deciding to dedicate a good chunk of your life because as you just outlined, when you go to get a doctorate and other things like that, that's a commitment. That's not Yeah, that's it. Like, that's a bigger commitment to tattoo in my mind. So like, you know, like, where what kind of happened in between there to say, you know, what, like, I really want to I think there's something here. Geoff Smart 13:58 Yeah, okay. So if we're being candid and revealing are vulnerable parts of our past mark, I'll share with you that I tried and failed to get an internship at McKinsey during college, I was fascinated by that brand story. You know, these folks who, McKinsey, a great strategy consulting firm advise their CEOs and government leaders on their most important decisions around products and operations and strategies that are so they don't, I mean, technically, they don't really do undergrad internships anyway. So I didn't take it too, personally. But I remember thinking I'd love to work there. It seems like strategy consulting, though, carries at great sacrifice on your lifestyle, also investment banking and investment banks. The idea is that, you know, go there, it's a great way to, you know, have a successful career but, you know, boy, it's kind of rough on on your ability to have a life and have time outside of work. So I'll tell you the, so the two reasons I found a gh smart, you know, one was that earlier reason I was telling you this fascination with the leadership and the idea Bringing a more methodical approach to leadership to help investors and people who run companies be successful. But the second reason I found a gh smart was was basically just this idea of Surely, there's a type of company that should exist where people who want to work hard and have an impact can also have a life. And so it's kind of the cultural story of how do you build a culture? How do you build a firm that has a better culture than what I was seeing in strategy consulting and investment banking, and what would it take to pull that off? So that was I say, equal importance to the client focused reasons for starting gh smart and so I was just so passionate about it, I saw you know, an unmet need in the market. And then I saw an unmet need in the talent market to which is, you know, how do you go do something meaningful and fulfilling and, and not sacrifice your life in the process? So that combo of the two was was so inspiring to me that I just felt weirdly confident and, and focused from eternity. The age that I wanted to go build that business. So at age 23, after opening the back of a ink magazine, you know, where they have all those like classified ads in the background or that ink magazine. One of them said, like, incorporate your business, I think it costs like 300 bucks or something. So like fill this thing out as a second year PhD students, I was still in grad school, filled out this thing. And on March 16 1995, I remember I got the articles of incorporation back for gh smart, and the original vision and purpose for founding the firm really has played out to a great extent you asked me a few minutes ago, you know, if I would have dreamed, you know, gf smart, would have turned out the way it did. And the answer's yes, not to be like arrogant about it. But that was kind of the reason I started to begin with was both on the client side to have an impact and also to create this employment brand, for a place where wildly talented people could go work and still have a life outside of work. Marc Gutman 16:58 And that's really interesting. To me, because going back into that time period, you know, early to mid 90s, I mean, this concept of having a job that you effectively love that gives you fulfillment it gives you meaning. You know, it's financially rewarding and allows you to have a life was not really common have an idea. Geoff Smart 17:19 Yeah, like name one. Yeah. But it wasn't as common places as today and there, you know, there weren't clear examples around. Marc Gutman 17:27 No, not at all. I mean, I remember sitting, you know, having, you know, kind of fights with my own parents, like at the holiday table as I was getting ready to leave college and they're like, Look, you just go get a job. It doesn't matter where you go, it doesn't matter where you have to move. It doesn't matter if you hate it. Just go and get this job. And, you know, even when I'm out talking a little bit, this is a big part of my origin story that really motivated me was this idea that like, I was really in search of finding a job that I love. My dad even at one point when I was really young said to me, I asked him if he liked this job, and we kind of go back and forth and he finally reveals his philosophy and that, you know, they wouldn't call it work. If it was supposed to be a whole lot of fun and so you know I really am resonating with this idea that like and I really want to just nail this idea home to people listening that yeah today everyone is very talking about fulfillment and employers are receptive to that and yeah it's just it's a whole different light kind of market today but back then not so much Geoff Smart 18:20 yeah that's true I appreciate your saying that it did. It did seem like you had to make a trade off right either you go join like a top tier brand and you know, work work your butt off and and maybe not worry about not even think about having life balance or having you know, either having a life outside of work or having the work itself be that fulfilling or you join the Peace Corps. Yeah, and you're become a teacher something where you have this like wonderful mission, but you know, there are other other sacrifices you have to make financially etc. Um, so yeah, that that really was a gaping hole I thought in the employment market. back then. It's still hard today even though so many firms You know, try to give people a great fulfilling work experience, and the chance to have a life outside of work. That's, that's an area that we really focus on. And I feel probably most proud of even more proud than the climate impact we have is the degree to which people really seem to love to work here and and how, you know, it's like gh smart was sort of born in a laboratory. And I did this like, four year long dissertation study on the market. So that's where the client facing part came from. And then just, you know, being mentored by Peter Drucker and others and just trying to really think of what makes an organization truly excellent. Peter Drucker, three listeners is the one credited with saying, culture eats strategy for breakfast. So, you know, focusing on what kind of cultural DNA that we want to bake in the GH smart that you know is even Peter Drucker approved. I wrote a paper mark on the gh smart business plan and gave it to Peter Drucker and I was so excited to try to hear his feedback and be all Inspired by his his loving division, he actually marked me down on the paper because he said he thought it was a little bit unrealistic and ambitious. And so and then this next is really embarrassing. It was you know, older by the time I got to work with him and and learn from him and so he wore a lavalier microphone when he was giving talks at during his classes and he had his his lavalier mic switch hot it was on was before class and we were supposed to all come up and like grab our our papers and so I might go up to get my gh smart business plan paper and he pulls me aside like forcefully grabs my shoulder, like almost uncomfortably so like a real gruff, you know, shoulder grab, and and he leans in to whisper in my ear. He said, You know, I like the vision for for your business, but it's too ambitious and nobody likes a know it all. And he said it in a whisper at about 100 decibels because it's Mike picked it up, and like, you know, that 50 people behind me to start laughing because I just basically, you know, got schooled by Peter Drucker on on the the value of humility when you know, when creating a business plan. So is that that was formative and helps, you know, sort of fuel the fire to make the thing successful. Marc Gutman 21:17 Yeah. So that's funny today, I can only imagine how you must have felt in that moment when you're idle and effectively God in the entrepreneur business world tells you, your business plan. Isn't that good? Geoff Smart 21:32 It's not that good. And all my 50 closest friends are in the background. They hear it Marc Gutman 21:38 Oh, yeah. Even though Yeah, if it's in private, you go back and you say, Yeah, he had some notes for me, but you can't even do that. You can't even like kind of tell your friends you know, you can't smooth it over. Geoff Smart 21:48 And everybody you know, sought the approval of Peter Drucker and so it was as funny as it was a pretty cringe moment, and then mark he died like three or four years after I finished my program. So that was, I was like 20 years ago. So he doesn't know that we kind of nailed it like I, I, in your intro, you're very generous. And you point out some things I'm like really proud of but like, we have 120 colleagues today, we have a 92% retention rate. So people come here, they stay. In other consulting firms, they have more like a 60 70% retention rate. We don't have like a couple hundred clients that are super happy. Harvard Business School wrote a couple and they teach two cases about innovation. Using gh smart as a as an example. It's been really fun being able to go sit there and have people in business school debate, you know, what you did well, and what you could have done better. And that kind of thing. On the books that you mentioned that we've each one of them took about three years plus to research and publish. And we've got like the whole book, you mentioned, stills number one, globally in sales and reviews on the topic of hiring that feels really good lead autocracies. CEO next door power score these all these books have done really great in their categories. And then onto the culture thing this is the thing that I really wish Peter Drucker could know today that you know that that ended up being successful. Glassdoor, you know rates your company anonymously by your own employees. And so at the moment, knock on wood Fingers crossed, you know, we have a 4.9 out of five, rating on glass doors first, like overall, employee satisfaction, which is feels really good. And then there's this like industry rating organization called vault that rates you know, all the big consulting firms and some small ones. And just for 2020, we got rated number one best company to work for in our industry, pushing McKinsey to number two, and Bay into number three for overall employee satisfaction, which is mind blowingly. Cool. And as an entrepreneur who's You know, we've only been around for 25 years and these other firms have been around for nearly 100 years. That that feels very satisfying. On the promise of Yes, like, create some value for clients through helping them hire and develop talented teams, but just as equally important, you know, building this culture where people really want to come here and work and they find the work fulfilling, they find the culture supportive, that that part's extra satisfying. It's hard, and it's weird, and it's, you know, vague, how do you build a culture? How do you, you know, maintain a nourish and that kind of thing. And we're constantly learning and we don't think we've solved, you know, for every problem by any means, but it is. It is super exciting to, you know, see people who have the choice to work anywhere. Choose to join this brand. Marc Gutman 24:38 Yeah, I have to think that when you saw that list, you just couldn't help but think to yourself, take that McKinsey. Geoff Smart 24:44 Yeah. Well, no, no, of course not. McKinsey is great for Bain, great firm and what they're what they do for clients is amazing and the culture they have is different. And if you're up for that, it's a great place to go. If you want to work on who stuff rather than what stuff and you want to Be able to, you know go to your kids channel recital on a Thursday at lunchtime to get smart is is the place you should be. So yeah I have great respect for for other firms and other niches around this world of you know management consulting for sure. But it is fun just to be this you know, super small fry kind of newer, newer firm that has unseated the the classic Titans in this field for best company to work for. Yeah, and in overall satisfaction to sleaze like they're a bunch of categories that give you these ratings for and that one was the one you know, we really wanted to win. And we're surprised and happy that for 2020 we got that one. This episode brought to you by wild story. Wait, isn't that your company? It is and without the generous support of wild story, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline or In your product, a brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wild story helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com and we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. Marc Gutman 26:46 It's interesting to think how far you've come I mean, when you left you know your studies with Peter and you said you were doing a little bit of this work with investment firms and things like that. Did you have clients day one was this business? Yes, day one or juror think like I kind of put a lot of eggs in the wrong basket. Geoff Smart 27:03 You know why it was funny? My Plan B was always to go just join a consulting firm. I had a runway, which is, you know, grad school and PhD programs in the torturously take a long time. I think my program averaged 10 years from start to finish folks getting done with it. So I figured out right, well, I'll try this j smart thing. And if it doesn't work out, I'll you know, I'll, you know, try to join a regular firm. So I it's weird, it never felt stressful. The early days. We did have I did have clients because I instantly took my PhD dissertation, which was a, which was the largest study ever done that looked at the relationship between how venture investors bet on management teams and the returns they made on deals. And I was getting like tons of keynote opportunities as flying all over the country, telling investors what they need to do to improve their bets on people. And so instantly these these same folks that I was studying just weeks or months prior, you know, we're or pay me to do training and consult with their investment teams on how to improve the way that they invest in people. And then once we start working on the private equity, they're co invested with other, you know, big companies. And so our our brand started to grow beyond the entrepreneurial into more established companies. So yeah, from I'd say the early phase was, you know, still PhD students, tell them the world a bit about our story of how you can improve your success by improving the rigor of your, you know, hiring and evaluation process of people, and how to, you know, build talented teams. And then we had contractors, so I had no money. I had no clients. And I really didn't know anything when I started the company. But it was like this vision of Hey, let's do something cool for people who run our own companies to build valuable ones through people and then must build this this cool culture. And so after the kind of very initial stage Money revenue was coming in from, from companies that want to get better at this, I started hiring contractors, which you don't have to pay full time salaries to. And so that allowed us to grow a bit in scale without taking on risk. So I made an important decision, I guess, because I wasn't confident in myself, or in the concept to raise venture money like so ironically, even though I was serving these investors. I didn't raise any venture money to begin with, because frankly, I just wasn't that sure that, that this culture or this, this firm, was going to be successful, but then through contractors, growing it growing and growing, it was working, and then at some point, I made the decision to switch over to just full time people. So like today, that hundred and 20 of us are all full time, full time with no contractors. And that happened about 10 years after I founded the company. So it's like a slow growth story, testing the market, testing the culture, and then then growth actually really started picking up one size stops managing the business day to day and one of my most talented youngest partners Randy street in 2010. Following the last recession we went through, I appointed him with a great support of my colleagues to be the managing partner. So here, I really gave him the keys to run it day to day in 2010. And he's done a fabulous job of building out everything that we have today. And under his tenure, we've had 90% client satisfaction rates completed every year 90% retention rates of our colleagues exceeded every year and over 20% growth and pre tax profit every year for 10 years. So Randy is really the like key to success of our growth and scaling over the last decade. But I like to think that the the original blueprint of you know, on the strategy side and on the culture side, we're still we're still playing that playbook today. Marc Gutman 30:54 Yeah. And did you ever like come up against in those early days Did anyone say to you like Geoff like It's all great that you want to like, advise on leadership and building great businesses, but like, Hey, man, like, you've not ever done that, Geoff Smart 31:08 right? Yeah. What do you know? You haven't even had a job? Yes, yes, people did say that. I'll tell you though, that the veil of the PhD student thing kind of work. They viewed me as this, like, you know, white lab coat scientist who's here to both study them, as well as to share some best practices. And I think I was pretty despite Peter Drucker's assertion that, that nobody likes to know it all. I was very humble in my posture in the early days, you know, I'm here, oh, you know, you want to improve your hiring success rate from 30% to 60% Plus, Great, well, let's see here. So you know, need to study how you're doing it and talk to a bunch of people. And, you know, share it, we'll share some best practices and we'll help implement these methods that are proven to help you improve how you hire and develop your talent. Oh, here's something that's born out of humility. Do you remember how Domino's had a 30 minute guarantee or your pizzas free? Yeah, of course. So that was huge, right? They took the number one thing in there, and they're, you know, market the brand story of like a pizza. If it's late, you know, that stinks. But if it's early, that's great. And they said, Hey, we're gonna guarantee your pizza in 30 minutes is gonna be hot, it's gonna be there in 30 minutes or you don't pay now later they they massage that commitment because people were the drivers were getting in accidents left and right, trying to rush to deliver pizzas but I took that lesson and I read it and I can't remember what you know, management book way back when but the principle was guarantee the thing that's hardest but most important to your customer. So just like Domino's guaranteed 30 minute pizzas, I guaranteed accurate hiring. And no, none of the other competitors would kind of go so far as to say hey, look, if we do our work, and you're still having hiring mistakes, we'll give you your feedback. So Even to this day, to this day, we're, you know, pitching huge projects these days. I was at a large railroad a couple of weeks ago, you know, we're talking about 10s of millions of dollars of fees for them to improve their hiring and development of senior people, and do some culture change work. And I look, you know, these five board members in the eyes, I said, if we are not successful, you don't pay. And it's funny as that was born from the early days of insecurity, and just not really not knowing anything when I started our business, but wanting to deliver good value to clients and wanting to have it be a great work experience. For our colleagues. This is like money back guarantee concept was a key early answer to the question, Oh, you've never really led anything. And by the way, how Why are you so young, I remember locked into a partner at Bain Capital, one of the most successful private equity firms. And we had been doing a bunch of work for them. And I met one of their senior most partners and he he looked at me and he said, he actually started talking To my colleague, one, someone who worked at my company, and was calling him Geoff, I said, Now I'm Geoff. He said, geez, you're a lot younger than I thought you'd be. I looked him in the eye. And I said, you are to add, having humility and humor, confidence, but also say, hey, yeah, no, that's right. I haven't been a fortune 500 CEO, and literally, I, I don't, I've never had a full time regular job. I did internships and college and grad school, but I started the company when it's 23. So yeah, making fun of myself as just some, you know, egghead, a PhD, but who has a method that does seem to work and by the way, here are the happy other clients, you're in good company. And if you don't feel like you get full value for the dollars you spend, we'll refund your feedback. That was sort of my way of countering the, you know, you seem young and experienced, understandable concern that early clients and colleagues had. Marc Gutman 34:51 So in the early days were the name come from him and I can guess it seems like it might, it might not be that not obvious, but I'd like to ask Geoff Smart 35:00 Yeah, so gh is smart. And company Inc is the official name and th smart. I had, you know, just say a huge industry crush on McKinsey and Company for being a, you know a very respected, impactful firm, a tons of talented people in it. So McKinsey and Company, gh smart and company. So that's where the company came from the gh smart. So my first name is spelled with a G. So Geoff, my middle name is Hudson, and smart as my last name and the brand for gh smart. The way we write it is kind of weird, and I'm proud of this. So gh is lowercase. And then all caps is s ma RT. And I tell people, whether it's colleagues or clients that as the founder and chairman, you know, I'm the GH but I'm lowercase. I'm a servant leader. I'm in service of colleagues and clients. But then it's my my colleagues who put the smart in gh smart and that's why the smart parts all caps, so anyway, super cheesy and hokey but, but true. And that's, that's where our brand story comes from on the little g little H and all caps smart Marc Gutman 36:04 down. I love it. And you know a shout out to your parents because as someone who was bestowed with the last name of Gutman going through, you know, the Geoff Hudson smart might be like a coolest name ever, right? Like it's like a big movie star. And then all of a sudden, like, Hey, I have a consultancy that it you know, deals with thinking and being smart. Wait a second. That's also my name. Like it's great. And so I want to give a shout out to your parents for a shout out for that grant. Great brand name. Yeah, Geoff Smart 36:32 that was lovely. It's hard spelling Geoff with a G on the phone when you know, in my early years whenever I was ordering something from a catalog or whatever, but so I hate it then. But I do like it now. And I appreciate appreciate that. My folks had a marketable last name. Marc Gutman 36:49 Yeah, and I mean, and you're probably gonna deny this because you're humble, but we all know that just with a G are also smarter than just with a J. So that helps to Geoff Smart 36:57 I'm not about to alienate any of your your listeners, Marc Gutman 37:01 all the Geoff's out there. Listeners Geoff Smart 37:04 just as Exactly. We don't want to. We don't want to upset that segment. But yeah, you know, it's I okay, so servant leadership is a theme is something that approached I have great respect for that almost prevented me from naming the firm after myself. But there was something about just like, yes, you're like signing your name and being like, I am putting my full self into this firm that sort of counteracted that hesitation, I had to call it th smart. So, yeah, it was kinda like 70 7030 I was like, I think I'm gonna name it smart, I guess because I appreciate my parents giving me a good name for name and business. But that hesitation was on I never did wanted to be like the Geoff show and have it just be a spotlight on me because I had learned from an early age by watching others, you know, successful entrepreneurs, that the more you can hire great folks, and then let them have this spotlight, the better if you want to scale a Top Tier Business? Unknown Speaker 38:04 Yeah, because scaling a services business isn't that easy. It's not like you can just start to, you know, dial up certain efficiencies and add, you know, more bandwidth in terms of like technology bandwidth or more factory space. I mean, it's people and it's hard. It's not easy. Unknown Speaker 38:19 Yes. So true. I appreciate your saying that, that it really is. It really is about adding and taking care of one colleague at a time. That's how you grow a professional services business. Yeah, I do enviously. Look at some of my technology products, peers who can you know, as you say, you know, put a curve in the growth rate by replicating digital technologies like super scalable fast, but I and the professional services business it really is about adding great people adding great clients adding great people adding great clients and it's more of a linear growth path. It's a lot, it's a marathon. It really feels like you have to sustain a high level of focus and discipline and reliability for yourself. years and years and years, it's not like a, you know, overnight kind of thing. Marc Gutman 39:03 No, not at all. And you know, thinking just about, you know, my own experience and kind of drawing on that. And knowing over the years, it ebbs and flows, and it takes different things to get you excited and keep you coming back. And so for you right now, like what, what's exciting you and keeping you excited in the business? Geoff Smart 39:21 Yeah. Let's see here. So, I have, I love my job. And I, I've done something that I don't see a lot of entrepreneurs do and I spend, you know, through the books and speakings I spent a bunch of time with YPO type folks and entrepreneur, organization type folks, like you great, you know, entrepreneurs around the world, and just kind of comparing notes on successes and failures and that kind of thing. I shrank and narrowed my role significantly. So I get to do just the things that I'm pretty good at that I like to do a lot. So So what keeps it fresh? For me is right if I was like, you know, managing the day to day and I had a whole lot of like, duties on my plate that I didn't love to do, but I sort of had to do because I was the only leader around that would be not fun. But instead I get to do the things that that I love that I'm pretty good at. And those things are honing the vision. And you know, getting my colleagues and clients excited about it is super fun. I still feel like ghsmart's is kind of a leadership laboratory where we're creating our own culture, we're creating our own everything, you know, processes, the way that we tell our story to clients, etc. So honing the vision. That's super fun. We want to see what are the things on recruiting and telling our brand story as an employment brand is one of my favorite things. I talked to the sky yesterday, or Friday who is thinking about joining our firm, and he's just like, he's so talented and so good hearted, has done amazing things in his career and listening to what he really wants. To do in the future stages of his career, and the knowing that he can accomplish that here is exciting to me. It's like, it's not like handing out people's dream jobs to them. I mean, they earned it. But it's the idea of, you know, through our own recruiting process and selection process, being able to talk with these really amazing people and then convince them to come join gh smart, I have a chairman's q&a at the tail end of all the hiring of all of our consultants still, and I love that if I didn't love it, I probably wouldn't do it, but I really, I really enjoy it. I really love like personally welcoming people into the firm and making sure they join business development like so I've had the same email address for 25 years and you know, with the books and other other things, you know, CEOs, investors, etc, will contact me and then and then, you know, sitting with someone who maybe as a new CEO of a huge resort and hotel company worldwide or sitting with the CEOs doing nanotechnology research or sitting with Someone who runs a children's hospital. I mean, it's so cool. Sitting with a new client, with my colleagues, I try not to do all the talking or even hardly any of the talking, but meeting new leaders, and then supporting my colleagues as we, you know, turn them into clients. I think a lot of fun, I still sort of thrill of the chase. And it's, you know, and I know these clients are going to be happy with the work because we measure everything we measure their satisfaction. So to be able to confidently hear them out, help them envision what they're trying to do to succeed, and then offer what we can do to help them and then have them become a client and be really happy is super fulfilling. So I think I think that's a lot of fun. And then I love working with Randy and my firm's leadership team. Randy is a super smart, like, steady decision maker. He's everything. I'm not around, having like the breadth and depth to be a great leader and manager of this firm. It's just a pleasure kicking ideas around together, and then we're super decisive. So it's fun, you know, we'll have different committees and different governance and everything, but our ability to listen to good ideas, either from our colleagues or from our clients, and then take action experiment, you know, kind of in the Agile style of try it and test and learn. That's a lot of fun. So that I don't know what you call that, like innovation, I guess. It's a lot of fun in a firm full of like, good hearted, talented people is a lot of fun. So yeah, it's, although my, my focus areas have abdun flowed and I've been different things over the years, by enthusiasts some level for what we're doing, and the impact has always been high. And then, if there's some part of my, like, personal entrepreneur work portfolio, that I don't really like or that others can do better, I just clean it off, and I give it to someone else who's better at it. So that's sort of advice for how to keep the work fresh and how to keep your own job satisfaction high as you know, if you're on one of these, like multi decade journeys to build a great firm. Marc Gutman 43:59 Well, thank you for sharing that. you'd mentioned Randy street a couple times. How did you get to meet? Geoff Smart 44:04 So we met. Last year, I personally didn't recruit him. One of my colleagues had known a Bain partner and Atlanta, Randy had. He gone to Harvard Business School and Bain and was really successful at Bain. And then he was like number two or number three at the fastest growth company in Georgia at the time. But he wanted to get back to professional services. And he also just sort of loved the topic of leadership. He was a Sunday school teacher, like really good, great speaker. And it was a good match. So we just, you know, we, we got to him through a referral, and then hired him. And then there's about two years after he started at our firm. I think that's right. No, not true. Five years after he started, he was one of the youngest, most talented partners, as a manager and a leader, and we're all Granny, can you please run the firm also, I was getting super burned out on crisis management, and the oh nine recession. And I was kind of like, Oh my gosh, someone else helped me, you know, with the goal setting and the process design and process management and dashboards and just all that. It's the scaffolding you need to build and manage in order to grow the firm. And Randy is so much better at that, than I. So it's been a really special working relationship. We thought originally, you know, every, I don't know, three or four years, we'd rotate the managing partner role. But he's so good, that we're all in agreement. You know, let's just like let him keep running the firm because he's great at it. So I think he's like, not quite 50. So he's young enough, I am hopeful and expect that he'll continue to run the firm for years to come Marc Gutman 45:42 Wow, And during that that segment, you talked in the segment before that, you talked a lot about leadership. I mean, what does leadership mean to you? Like, how do you define that? Geoff Smart 45:49 Yeah, it's funny. I like the simplest definition of leadership. I really like is helping a group of people. Figure out what it wants and then to formulate and execute a plan to get it. So, the LM like, at its core, I think leadership's about helping improve people's lives. And if you as a leader can help facilitate the process of figuring out, you know, what, what are the priorities? What are the what's the goal here, like, what are we trying to do, and then hire and delegate to great people, and then you know, build relationships that are respectful and focused on results, then, you know, you can create great results for for the, for the people that you're serving. So I think I don't know leadership at its core of its health care workers or military or government or for profit or not for profit, is basically about helping focus, human capital to improve the quality of life of other people. And I'm a huge fan of Leadership only counts. If you're helping the customer base however you define customer, and if you're really making a positive impact in the lives of the employee base. So that's, in fact, we're almost we don't say this out loud, I'll share with you mark, because this top secret sort of values assumption, but we actually prioritize our colleagues over customers and shareholders. And it's controversial because this is this age old question of, you know, good leadership, you know, who, who gets priority? And I think most companies are very shareholder focused. And then there's sort of customer focused, and then maybe a distant third, there's Oh, yeah, the employees at th smart right from the beginning. Again, I was like, one of the two equal reasons I started the company was I really wanted to have this be a great place for, for people to build their careers. And so our opinion or the way that we actualize what great leadership is all about, is you Providing just like an amazing work experience for people and then making a positive impact in the lives of customers. And then if you do that really well, yeah, the shareholders will be happy over the long haul. But I think it's kind of fun and slightly controversial that we, we do prioritize our colleagues over, over all other priorities Marc Gutman 48:18 Yeah when you say that with like, what's that look like? Like? How does someone prioritize colleagues over shareholders and customers? Geoff Smart 48:25 Sure, so a pandemic 2020 on our priority list, protecting jobs comes several clicks higher on the priority list than maximizing profits. And that's not easy to say or do lots of companies don't want to do that. They they, you know, when push comes to shove or when challenges arise, they clearly go to kind of propping up short term economic performance at the expense of people's jobs, but we just made it we put a line in the sand and said we're going to protect people's jobs. We're not Anybody off even though you know demand and profitability might be negatively impacted. So that's, that's an example of that as far as like prioritizing people over customers, or this one evil client once, who was doing some saying some hashtag me to stuff to one of my female colleagues. And you know, she called it out. She's like, yeah, here's what this guy's saying. And we were like, Well, yeah, dump the client. And she's like, really? Like, it was like a profitable It was like a profitable prestigious client. We're like, absolutely. Like, like, get rid of that client, like, forget it. And so backing your people and being like, No, no, we're not going to work with bad clients is a fabulous statement of loyalty to your colleagues. When another there's a client prospect were considering taking on who during the initial meeting revealed that, that they write legal contracts that are really advantageous for the CEOs They have the companies they own. And it was kind of like weird ethics stuff. And I am, I'm pretty sure many other consulting firms would still work with, with that client. And I know that because I, after I told the guy that I wouldn't work with him, because I didn't think he was honest, which was not a pleasant conversation. But I told him, I didn't think that we'd be helpful. And given his methods and his way of how he invested and built businesses. You know, it's like inconsistent with our values and our methods. But did he want me? Do you want me to find another firm to serve him? And I asked another firm and I said, this guy's dishonest. And he writes legal contracts that CEOs later regret having signed in order to be in order to make more money. Do you want to work with them? And I, in two seconds, I found another consulting firm in our industry that was willing to work with us, but I didn't want to have my colleagues working with a dishonest client. So that's how, you know, that's how putting colleagues ahead of clients That's what that looks like. Marc Gutman 51:01 Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And previous to you had mentioned that, you know, a big part of your job is sharing the brand story. I mean, what does? What does that mean? Like, how do you define brand story? And how do you go about doing it? You know, what I find is just that, you know, when I use those words, brand story, that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. And I'd love to hear your take on how you share how you define it, and how you actually go out and share that that story with the world. Geoff Smart 51:25 Sure, well, I appreciate the question. And I think about it in two buckets. The brand story for employees for my colleagues is one message and then one brand and then the brand that that we the brand story we tell for clients is a second one in the brand story for colleagues. I do this kind of like, Do you ever wonder type approach or like, you know as a as a you think about your work, you know, do you ever wonder how you can maximize the positive impact or making you to do work that are really matters and get paid for it and have a life outside of work. Like put those three circles together in a Venn diagram, and name me one firm that allows you to do all three, you know, it's just like really meaningful, fulfilling work, to be able to make money and pay the bills. And then to have a life outside of work. And I, this came this this moment of clarity I had when Randy street my colleague, and I were teaching at Harvard Business School, the GH smart case, where, you know, they, the kids read the, like, the 12 page case, and they talk about what we did wrong and what we could do better, and that kind of thing. And this woman raised her hand is and she said, You know, I used to work for the Peace Corps. And we were really big on on mission and values and really the sort of, you know, why do we exist, and I would bet gh smart hasn't even taken the time to write down why it exists or what it believes And for that reason, I wouldn't I wouldn't want to work there. So she actually, to my face during the class hundred people in the room professor had asked the question like, would you know, would would everyone here work for gh smart or Not? And, and, and why? And so she basically schooled us on you know, hey do you have you have you thought about and written down what your you know your firm sort of credo is and we hadn't we had a you know I think high vision for what what we wanted to do and we had a sensor or values but we actually hadn't taken the time to write out like a credo like the Johnson and Johnson credo or, you know, the and so we walked away from that experience going, Alright, fine. You know, I think we need to now like clearly articulate why we exist. And then make sure the values that we that we identify are the most important ones, that that make up our, the sort of DNA of our culture. So that that brand story of, you know, impactful Work, make money and have a life outside of work. Sora was born, it was an initial vision for why I wanted to join or start the company but it like we really improved that brand story after that kind of embarrassing class period that was like, like 10 years ago or something. And then what we did was we got our entire team together for a year and worked on about 100 drafts of who we are, why we existed, and it ended up being that credo that whose first line that you read at the beginning here, but it starts We exist to help leaders amplify their positive impact on the world. And I felt really good about this because it was a complete team effort to to really like articulate this credo. Yes, we have it in writing. Yes, it's different from other companies. credos are values and, and I think it's really helpful, so I'm thankful for that. calling us out and saying, hey, Peace Corps is pretty good at articulating it's, it's why, you know, I wouldn't work for you guys because I bet you haven't even written it down yet. Well, now we've written it down and we use it for hiring, we use it for performance management and coaching. We use it, you know, to as a, as a benchmark for checking our culture, making sure we're living up to you know, what the brand promise of that employment brand story is. So the employment brand story is like kind of you can have it all, and you can't get that anywhere else. You can, you know, work on Wall Street, make money, but occasionally have existential questions of purpose, and allows the lifestyle, you can work in the Peace Corps, and have a great impact. But, you know, maybe not be able to be pumping your kids 529 College Savings money as much faster as you'd like. And then they're just like a lot of jobs that are just sort of nit you know, as far as the impact you have, as far as the wealth creation opportunities, and as far as your ability to really affect ability and freedom and have a life and enjoy life as as you go. So I don't know, it's not it seems like super obvious, like, why wouldn't a firm like that exist? But that's we've been very conscious of wanting to make sure that Brian's story comes through loud and clear. And that's those are was what I feel good about is behind closed doors and you know, and anonymous environments like last door, our colleagues, you know, point point out that Brian story very uniformly and you know, candidly and, and with honesty like yeah, this is what we get working here, impact money, the ability to have a life. So that brand story was like those three planks. And, and it's, it's a story of, of having it all, and it's hard to pull off in there. It's harder to run a firm that gives people all three of those things than it is to run a firm that maybe takes one for three or two for three. Marc Gutman 56:53 Yeah, and you mentioned that you know, it took you about 100 drafts like what's hard about distilling all that down into a one Page credo or into a vision statement or, you know, these different ways that we articulate our brand story like, what Why 100? drafts? What's hard about that? Geoff Smart 57:09 Yeah, you know, it's a feeling of two thoughts. One is, you don't want it to sound generic, like other companies, because then it's not. It's not really inspiring. And it's not, it's not that helpful. And two is the process of writing your credo of writing the document that says why your firm exists. The process is super important. I don't want to say it's more important than the outcome but you know, really getting input from everybody, you know, administrative assistance, finance people, it people, consultants, senior people, Junior people, that was made clear to us because we we kind of benchmarked other great organizations that created a credo and how they do it, and they all told us, you got to get everybody's input, otherwise, it doesn't feel like it came from everybody, because it didn't. And so we were doing some pro bono work. Around that time with, with the US Navy with their, with the navy seals, and they are known for publicly, I'm not going to share anything private. But they're publicly known for having a really great credo. They call it their ethos, and you can look it up. And it's really compelling. Because it's it's very, it's unique to their organization. So we talked with, with one Navy SEAL commander who had participated in the writing of their credo, you know, a while ago, and I asked him, Well, how did you do it? And he said, Well, the key part was really getting the voice from from everyone, you know, from all the different parts of an organization. And then I said, well, Why'd you do that? And he said, Well, we we had three helicopters that we packed full of people who had, you know, their peers had sort of nominated them to be on this team. And then we stuffed it full of red meat and beer and flew them over to San Clemente Island, which is off because this cornado of San Diego, and we told them, they can't come back until they've written the document that says why we're special and why we exist. I thought, well, that's kind of cool. So we followed suit in that we got, we just got just tons and tons and tons of input from people and then so not wanting it to be generic is one reason to get the 100 drafts. The second reason to do 100 drafts is to have it be like sort of creative and inspiring, in a way that, you know, lives on kind of like the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. You know, we the people, like you know, this, you realize, like, sort of how long this documents gonna live. And you really just want it to be inspiring and cool. And that takes drafts versus just saying stuff plainly. And I try to say stuff that calls to a higher purpose and, and is, the third thing is specificity. So there are elements of our DNA that we think are really important. And I wanted to make sure that they all showed up in the credo and in the values and so that took a number of drafts because we'd be like yeah wait a second you know something about we are really talking about sharing our knowledge with the world like isn't you know writing books and sharing our knowledge about leadership with the world part of something that's important to us and then we go yeah and then you know, we wrote in you know, blah blah blah while always protecting client confidentiality we share our knowledge about leadership with the world you know, stuff like that. So being complete and making sure that threads of DNA that make your organization successful Are you know show up in the credo is the other thing that takes a lot of time. Marc Gutman 1:00:36 And that is Dr. Geoff smart of gh smart. Thanks a lot, Geoff. Tune in for the second part of this episode, where he dives into the actual process of who in reveals his five step process for hiring the right person every time. Oh, and our family has a credo, which might as well be the wild story credo and it goes something like this Home is a dream factory. There is no dream too big, too ridiculous or too audacious. No one doesn't think you can achieve whatever you want. It's your dream. So limit. There are no shoulds could or have to choose just dreams and the courage to explore them. Ask what if dreams are the stories we've yet to step into? It's great to have the right dreams. It's even okay to have the wrong dreams. But what we can't have is no dreams, because it's our dreams that shape the world. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstorm.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. A lot big stories and I cannot lie to you. Other storytellers can't deny

In 1985, Rob Angel, at only 23 years old, took his simple idea and created the wildly popular and phenomenally successful board game Pictionary using only a Webster’s paperback dictionary, a #2 pencil, and a yellow legal pad. Rob and his partners put together the first 1,000 games by hand before selling the game to a major toy company in 2001. Rob’s story is one of passion, optimism, and perseverance. Prepare yourself for a game-changer of a story. You’ll be inspired and motivated to make your own dreams a reality.

• Rob Angel’s Story: A Haphazard Bus Ride That Sparked Motivation to Always Be His Own Boss

With a father in sales and a mother in real estate, Rob learned motivation at a young age. He was only 12 when he rode a haphazard, jalopy bus to a family member’s house for a visit. The bus smelled and the bathroom was backed up, among other problems. And all Rob could think of was having to make the return trip home on that same bus. It was at that time that Rob decided he was going to be wealthy enough to drive his own bus.

Living in the Pacific Northwest, he and his neighborhood friends would play for hours outside. “Gaming” had a very different meaning and experience in the ’80s. It was the center of everything during the winter months, and the first one that caught his attention was a game of strategy, diplomacy, and conquest. It was the game of Risk. Others that caught his attention were Trivial Pursuit and Monopoly. It was here that his love of board games was born.

Rob went to college thinking he was going to be a “businessman”, even though he admits he had no idea what that meant. The only idea he had of what a businessman was, was that of his father. But after his father lost his job, Rob switched paths and decided to become an entrepreneur to have control over his future, and not have it dictated by others. He graduated college, but unsure of what to do with his degree, Rob became a waiter to have control over his schedule. In 1985, the game Pictionary was originally created with one of his childhood friends, (also) Rob, after a day of working at the restaurant. As they developed the game, he had two criteria for the words for Pictionary: 1) he had to know what the word meant, and 2) it must conjure up a picture in his mind. The first Pictionary card was “aardvark”. He and his business partners hand-assembled the first 1,000 games in his 900 square foot apartment, but demand quickly outstripped their supply, so they decided to license their game. As they sold millions of games worldwide, the partners made a conscientious choice to stay involved and support new companies as they came on board so that the new companies, and the game, stayed successful. Are you finding ways to make your dream a reality, no matter the sacrifice?

Game Changer: The Story of Pictionary and How I Turned a Simple Idea Into the Best Selling Board Game In the World by Rob Angel Pictionary

Wildstory

• 8:21 - 9:09 (48 sec RA) Board games were something that were high fidelity...sense of family, and this sense of connection we had with each other lasted for years.

1. I was looking for the freedom to be in charge. RA

Rob Angel 0:02 I get there and it's 80 degrees and I'm sweating and I'm ready to go and I get to the front door, and I realized I forgot my sample. Okay, good one, Rob. So I go back to the car. And, of course, the cars lock and the car still running. I was so nervous, but I forgot to turn the car off. Marc Gutman 0:30 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the baby got backstory podcast. we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like being back stories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and today's episode of Baby got backstory. How a 23 year old waiter turned a simple idea into the best selling board game in the world. Now, if you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at iTunes. iTunes uses these as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on the apple charts. And ratings help us to build an audience, which then helps us continue to produce the show. So go over there and give us a good rating if you think we deserve it. On today's episode, we are talking to rob Angel, the inventor of one of the world's most beloved board games, and one of my all time favorite board games Pictionary in 1985. using just a few simple tools, a Webster's paperback dictionary and number two pencil and a yellow legal pad, Rob created the phenomenally successful and iconic board game. He and his partners put together the first 1000 games by hand in his tiny apartment, and later they ultimately start sold the business to a major toy company in 2001. Rob's story is one of action. Getting in and taking that first step, putting yourself in motion. It's a story of passion, optimism, and perseverance. I loved hearing how Rob took a simple idea and wouldn't accept anything other than becoming the biggest or game in the world. And this is his story. Rob, we're here to discuss how passion and persistence led you to inventing the world-renowned and iconic game Pictionary. Since we know where the story is headed, let's go back and start at the beginning. Did you dream of inventing a board game as a kid when you're growing up in British Columbia? What was little Rob like? Rob Angel 2:56 No, I don't think I was in inventing mode. I was curious. I was I thought engaged and I just had a curiosity about life. And I was always poking my head in places and seeing what was going on. Marc Gutman 3:11 Yeah. And what did that look like? What did life for? You look like in British Columbia? Can you kind of paint the picture for us a little bit? And maybe to kind of set the context to like, what the time period and what's going on at that time. Rob Angel 3:23 So yeah, I grew up in Spokane, Washington. And I was really engaged. It was a really, really great neighborhood. We had about 25 kids and it was in a cul-de-sac. And so the upbringing was one of fun and communication, and just really a great place to grow up really great place to to feel belong. Really. Marc Gutman 3:47 Yeah. And what took your family to Spokane, Rob Angel 3:50 a job. My father got offered a job and he had a fascination with Spokane. And so we settled there when I was about five and It just turned out to be the best move for him and for the family for sure. Marc Gutman 4:04 Okay, what did your father and your inner mother do for a living? Rob Angel 4:08 Dad was a salesman at heart and worked his way up to run Alaska steel and supply which was a big scrap yard with ADD furniture and hardware, all kinds of things. And then my mom was a stay at home mom, but then she decided she wanted to work so she sold real estate work at the local racetrack. So yeah, they both were. Were go-getters. They both didn't sit around. Marc Gutman 4:32 Yeah. And so like when you were young, were you looking at them thinking, wow, I want to follow my parent's footsteps, or do you have a different dream as a youngster Rob Angel 4:39 that, you know, it's funny hindsight, when you look back, and you're asking these questions, I went back and looked at it. So there was a story when I was about 12 years old, and I had to go to Kimberly, excuse me to Calgary, Alberta for Passover. She might not call but I was on this bus. And it was a terrible, terrible ride. It was it smelled and the bathroom backed up. And I can think about when I got up there was I have to do this again when I get back. And so when I got back in the mind of a 12-year-old, it was, you know, Dad, I'm going to be so rich one day, I'm gonna, I'm gonna buy a bus and drive it off a cliff. Well, I think really what I was saying to myself was I'm going to drive my own bias I'm going to be in charge of my life. And that is what I was looking for the freedom to be in charge that was driving that was the driving force between everything I did Marc Gutman 5:42 yeah and and and I can really relate and understand you know, where you're coming from with that, that urge and that that desire to be free and to drive your own boss, but at 12 years old, I'm guessing that probably didn't start driving your own bus either literally or metaphorically, Right then. Rob Angel 5:59 yeah, no And this is all retrospect in hindsight because I told that story and I remember that story. And it was a little precursor and foreshadowing, I think without me knowing it at the time. Marc Gutman 6:13 Yeah. And so Spokane at that time, and I've been to Spokane today, and it's not like what I would consider a really big town. So, at that time, it must have been a really small local town. I mean, what were you involved in as a young boy in school? I mean, did you have favorite subjects? Were you into certain activities? Rob Angel 6:32 Yeah, I enjoyed history and I enjoyed math. I was, I have to be honest, not a very good student. The whole book learning thing went past me but I did assimilate the information and I really enjoyed the reading. And the one thing I really got into was pole vaulting. That was my sport. And I was a championship pole vaulter, which requires a lot of discipline, a lot of practice. And that kind of sets Up to, to figure out how to get things done and I wanted to accomplish Marc Gutman 7:05 now where you pole vaulting in high school or college or both? Rob Angel 7:09 Yeah, I was in college. And I really enjoyed it. I mean, you went fast, and I wound up in my butt a few times, you know, you don't get the leg up and all of a sudden the pole doesn't go the right way and your back and your back, but that was okay. So, yeah, I mean, it was just part of the process, right? It was just part of what happened. Now, it was a few bumps and bruises. But for the most part, I managed to get into pit. Marc Gutman 7:34 Yeah. And so when you kind of look back at that time, do you remember give a first memory of your first game or your first board game that really caught your attention? Rob Angel 7:44 Yeah, the one that when I was go back to his risk, the neighborhood was really tight. So during the winter months when the snow would pile up, we all get together and play games and one of the neighborhood's houses. And I just always loved playing risk was that World domination. Yes. That that really resonated with me. I just love that game. Marc Gutman 8:05 Yeah. And for audience and people that that might have forgotten or weren't alive, then gaming had a very different meaning and connotation and experience than it may. Many people may associate with it today, right? I mean, like, like board games, were something that were high fidelity, and we're rich and experience relative to the time and can you kind of set the stage a little bit about how important those types of games were to your upbringing? Rob Angel 8:36 Oh, it was really important. It was the center of everything during those months, as you say, video games were a solitary endeavor. But when you get four or 5, 10 Kids hung around this game board, that the camaraderie and then the fine and just the fun, really, there wasn't anything dramatic was just fun to do that. And so it created a sense of a family. And, and this connection that we had with each other just lasted for years. And yeah, it was a different vibe. It was a different, a different mindset. But everybody played for the risk clue, monopoly. And eventually, Truffaut pursued and then picturing it, but back then, yeah, board games were, were quite, quite the hub. Marc Gutman 9:25 Yeah, yeah. And so you're playing games you're, you know, just like every other kid who's who's invested in that escapism that entertainment and you're going to, you know, move into high school in college and where did you think you were going to do with your life at that point? Rob Angel 9:42 When I got to college, or before college, I've worked for my father during my summers since I was in eighth grade every summer. And I saw him, you know, be the boss and I I liked how people were watching him. When he was in charge, he was a businessman. And so like a lot of kids, I just wanted to be my dad. So I, I went to school with the idea of being a businessman. I don't know what that meant. But just the thought of that was what I thought I was gonna do. Marc Gutman 10:15 Yeah. Would you think it at that time? Rob Angel 10:17 I have no idea, right? I like the only vision, my voice just went up. the only the only, you know, vision I had was my father. And so that was my world. That was my vision of what a businessman was without really knowing the details. And so I put my mind to go to school to be a business major. Didn't have a discipline didn't at the point when I went at 18 years old. I didn't have a discipline picked out but I thought I'd figure it out. Well, ultimately, in short order, the decision was made for me. Marc Gutman 10:52 And how was that? Rob Angel 10:53 Yeah. I get to college. I get to school, and mom and dad are paying for college. As you know, was was the thing except halfway through my freshman year, my father got fired. And it was like, holy crap. You know, here, here he is the president of this company. And all of a sudden he's out of a job. And it was like, a now what everything I planned for everything that I was looking up to is now gone. And I was had to figure out not only how to pay for college on my own, but I had to figure out what I wanted to do. Because if, because I'm looking at him and remembering that bus drive, because if somebody else is in control of his life, his job his future, that didn't work for me, I had to be in charge. So at that moment, I made the switch from businessman, entrepreneur to I'm going to be in charge of my life and not let anybody else dictate my terms. Marc Gutman 11:46 And so what's that switch look like? I mean, what do you mean you switch to an entrepreneur? Rob Angel 11:50 Well, I started taking classes as I call them, without yes or no answers. I wanted to just explore and experiment with with with business or whatever was going on. And so I just started to expand my mind with the with the idea that I was going to start my own business find something to do on my own. So I gravitated toward those classes, rather than, you know, accounting or, or the like. Marc Gutman 12:18 Yeah, and I think it's interesting because now, this idea of being an entrepreneur is really celebrated. We actually have celebrity entrepreneurs. But back then, you know, and when I when I went to college, being an entrepreneur wasn't necessarily like, a thing, and it wasn't something that was necessarily cool. It was kind of like what you did if you couldn't get a job. Rob Angel 12:43 That is exactly right. Yeah, you put on your resume, entrepreneur, what is that mean? That you know, we're talking 1981 there was no entrepreneurial degree back. I probably didn't know what the word meant. Just articulating it now, so yeah, Was it wasn't something that people strived for. They just were, then this label that everybody was going to be one kind of came out and it made it legitimatize it a little bit. But Marc Gutman 13:15 that's before it's legitimatized. Like, what did your parents think of this? I mean, were they concerned for your, your path and your future at this time? Rob Angel 13:22 No. They always were supportive of what I wanted to do. And keep in mind again, by the second year, I'm paying for college on my own, but they never put myself through but they were always supportive of me and my family, my siblings, whatever we wanted to do was okay with them. As long as we took care of our responsibilities. They were good. Marc Gutman 13:43 Yeah. And I believe you went to Western Washington University, is that correct? Rob Angel 13:48 Yeah. Western Washington and Bellingham, Washington. Marc Gutman 13:50 Great. So you're, you're here at Western Washington, you're like, I'm going to be an entrepreneur and you put yourself through college and you come out and I just have to imagine that you're an immediate huge success. You probably haven't get a huge job or buy a huge business and away you go, right? Rob Angel 14:04 You obviously didn't read my bio. Marc Gutman 14:10 Or I did Rob Angel 14:11 or you did clearly. Yeah, no, that didn't quite work out that way. I decided to hitchhiked through Europe for five months after I graduated. So that just seemed like a nice reward that I wanted to do. So I worked through a year waiting tables. And then I went to Europe. But yeah, something Something happened in the interim, as we're, we'll discuss, but yeah, it was. It was, That was my immediate goal. Marc Gutman 14:37 Okay, so you go to Europe, like most most kids around that age do and but you're waiting tables and what's going on with that? what's what's happening with with your life at that point? Rob Angel 14:50 Well, I just graduated from school and waiting tables is how I put myself through school. And and that was For me, at that moment, the ultimate freedom. Remember, I've always said, and I've always lived freedom to do what I want when I want. And how I want to do is always important. So if I wanted more money, I would just work more hours, I wanted to take time off, I'd just get somebody to cover my shift. But I was still with always the backdrop of wanting to do my own thing. It was always at the backdrop of, I want to start my own business, create my own product. And so that was always forefront. And so I moved in when I graduated with three buddies, and we all were waiting waiting tables or restaurant work or whatever, and we get home late. And then one day, one of my roommates says, "Hey, you want to play a game?" "Sure. What is it?" We called it charades on paper. We sketch words out of a dictionary. Okay, you know, I mean, it was like one of those. You're looking I was always looking for an opportunity. But at that moment, the only opportunity I had saw in front of me was fun. I mean, I wasn't thinking of a business, I wasn't thinking of anything like that. And we started playing. And lo and behold, We're up all night playing this silly game. I mean, it was just a blast. And then after several nights are Oh, that's when it started, you know, percolating a little bit or going, wait a minute, this might make a good board game. So all those board games that I played as a kid want to be an entrepreneur, all of a sudden are kind of crashing together to form a plan in my head. Marc Gutman 16:30 Yeah, and what's your roommate's name? And had that game been played before? Or was it really like, just was the genesis right at that moment, like a crazy idea? Rob Angel 16:39 That was something he played with friends at Washington State University. Yeah, he was it was a game they played and it was just an activity. There was no game it was called Word sketch word. And if you get the word right, you get high five and sip your beer Off you go. Marc Gutman 16:56 All right, so you're playing the game and Do you remember That that first, that first night you played and what that was like, Rob Angel 17:05 I remember more of the feeling of it. Because I just remember, it reminded me of home it was. and Rob was his name. He was one of the kids I grew up with. He was one of the kids I play games with. So it was an immediate sense of feeling home when we started playing again. And it was just very comfortable shoe to put on. Marc Gutman 17:27 Yeah, and so you know, to say like, Hey, I have this idea, and I want to do something and I'm going to, you know, go build a game. I mean, people say that all the time. You know, and I think that, you know, I think that's a real kind of misconception about entrepreneurs and building a business. I think, hey, like, if I say it enough, it'll happen but you actually have to, like, do something. So like, what did you do with this epiphany? Did you run out and build the game? Did you sit on it for a while? Rob Angel 17:55 I did nothing. I went, I mean, Yeah, you're exactly right, you've got to take steps. And I was not ready, willing or able to do that. So I went to Europe. But the idea never left my mind. It was always in my head to do this. So when I got back, the one thing that that I couldn't shake is that I just kept kind of telling myself, but, you know, I was just a waiter, and I didn't have the skills. So I kind of just didn't do much with it for a little while I had to get out of that mindset. And the other problem was the physical issue of how do I make a game? Right? I'd like it. There's no internet. I don't know how to fish it to put a game together. I don't know about all the moving parts. And every time I started thinking about all the parts, I kind of, I kind of shut down. And so I had to get past that. And I did when one day my mom sends me Trivial Pursuit. The biggest problem I had was Physically putting the game together was how do I put words into a game? That that is the physical thing I knew people were gonna, we're going to need. And so I till I figured that out, I was kind of stuck. Well, mom says make sure if we pursue open it up. And as we know, there was six questions on the car. And the first question, I read it, and I turned it over the answer is polar bear. And I look at polar bear. Just you know, hey, you know, how you have this, this feeling that something magical has just happened? I mean, it was like, oh, okay, no, wait a minute. I'm thinking what something's going on here. And all of a sudden, it hit me like a ton of bricks. This is aha moment. Then I'll put Pictionary words on cards and make the game that way. I mean, it was like, it was like magic. My roommates thought I was crazy. I'm like, I'm like, yelling. But this is it. And it was really a really a powerful moment. Marc Gutman 20:00 Yeah, it seems so obvious today. But like at the time, what was kind of like, what was the obstacle? I mean, like, what other options were you thinking about in terms of like how to package this game? Rob Angel 20:12 Oh, I overthought everything, and I had not put a game together. So I was thinking, all these things so the major obstacle to getting started started was me. I was the problem. Couldn't get out of my head, however, thought everything all the steps necessary to get it out there. And so while as you said, it seemed obvious, now, that word list excuse me, the the card, that was the catalyst to getting out of my head. Marc Gutman 20:42 Yeah, and I'm really glad that you brought up like the year is 1985. There is no internet. There's not this idea like hey, I'm gonna go out on social media and tell everybody about it. There's not e commerce and it's going to buy go to the traffic store and buy traffic and pump customers. So you're in there, you know, and a lot of times we, we don't realize what's possible until we see or hear someone else do it. So you don't have that that magic of the internet where we can always go, Oh, this person in Africa did this, we can do it too. You know, the world is so small now. So it's 1985, you have this epiphany. I'm going to put the game on cards, and then what happens? Rob Angel 21:22 So I had to break it down because once I saw that, I had to break down the task of creating picture. I couldn't spend my time building a business plan, learning, marketing and all these other things. So I literally broken down to the easiest step, which as we just said, were the words. So I took about a paper, a pencil, and a little Merriam Webster dictionary in the backyard. And I'm sitting there and I open it up, and I write down the first word that makes sense to put into picture and the word was aardvark. I was at aardvark. So I write the word aardvark down. And I literally flops, sweats. I start, I started breathing heavy. It was like, I just wrote a word I had just gotten started. And really what was going through my head was I'm no longer a waiter. I'm a game inventor. That's all it was. It was a mindset. It was a label that I put on myself. And I embraced it. I was a gaming better. And so as soon as I did that switch, as soon as it flipped, I went on to the second word, and the third and the fourth. And from there is what everything just happened and everything built. It was from taking that one small, easiest, first step. It's kind of like people now the first and easiest step is like getting a domain name on GoDaddy. It's like nine bucks. So whatever it is, that just puts it Real right writing that first word made everything real was no longer just an idea rattling around in my head. That's all. Marc Gutman 23:08 Yeah. And what was so great about the word aardvark why is that such a perfect Pictionary word? Rob Angel 23:13 I had two criteria. I didn't want to overthink this process of creating words. Didn't want to get my own way. So if I knew what the word meant, and it conjured up the picture in my mind, you know what, it was hard, easy didn't matter. I wrote it down. And I didn't self at it. I just kept going. And the first word, double a aardvark. Marc Gutman 23:35 Yeah. And you talk now today, when you're out, talking with other entrepreneurs and talking with other people about finding their aardvark. Hmm, what does that mean? Rob Angel 23:47 It means a couple of things, but it mostly means just taking a first small step. Now how you get there is also part of the process. Nobody really knows. I did not know that I would be inventing a game. I didn't wake up one day and said, You know what, I think I'll invent a game. And here I go. Most people don't really know what it is they watch. But But I think most of us know what we don't want. I think it's easier for most people, myself included, to get rid of things till we can find out what we want. It's like, I tell the analogy of a white Somalia. He can smell a glass of wine. And he can tell you in 90 seconds what it is from any vintage anywhere in the world. How do you do that? he says, I can't even memorize every wine in the world says no, I have no idea. But I know what it's not. That gets me to what it is. I know it's not Merlow, I throw those out is not a Cabernet. And he just narrows it down to what it is. And that's what he finds his purpose. That's what he finds out what that wine is. And so finding your aardvark is going down a lot of different paths. Getting a lot of knowledge Things that that aren't in your norm to see what resonates. So the more you explore experience, the more you explore. The more you're curious, the more you'll find it easier to find your artwork. Your first step. Marc Gutman 25:15 Yeah, and thanks for that. And you have all of you know the benefit of perspective today. So now you know what, the aardvark. Meant to you thank you for sharing that. And it's really sound experience, share for all the listeners as well. But you're sitting there, he just wrote down aardvark, you're writing some other names. What happened there? I mean, did you do you incorporate a business? Do you have a storefront? Like, what's going on with this with this idea? Rob Angel 25:44 I like to say that I'm the smartest guy in the room. Because I know I'm not the smartest guy in the room. I know my limitations, and I embrace what I know and what I'm good at and I knew that I had to find partners to fill in not only the holes of what I didn't know, but also were aligned with my mindset, but my vision. It's not just finding pieces of a puzzle. It's finding mental, spiritual, emotional pieces of the puzzle as well. And I knew that Pictionary for it to be successful, had to look good. This was pre internet, it wasn't me to be able to go online and find a graphics design firm. So I one of the first partners I found was a graphic artist that I worked with. He was going to design the game. That was a very key, you're not gonna want to pick up the game. I'm not going to sell it. The other partner was somebody who run the business. Carrie Langston, I know I could, but I just didn't want to run the business. So I found a partner that had that skill set. And so I put together this team of amazing people that have different skill sets, but the same mentality have made the picture a success. Marc Gutman 27:04 Well, and so how did that pitch go down? You know, it's like, Hey, I'm gonna cut you in. But I need you to work for free. Like, I mean, what's going on at that time? Or has there been a little bit of runway established before you went out and got those folks? Rob Angel 27:19 Oh, no, there's, they both were after I started doing play tests. So once I developed the game, I had really bad graphics. But I did some play tests. So I said, hey, look, here's the idea. Here's the game. I need this, this and this. What do you think on Really? I offered them a little piece of the company without because I had no money. I think I think I offered actually, Gary, the graphic artist offered him 2000 bucks, or a piece of the company. I had 46 bucks in the bank. So if he hadn't taken the money, I would have been in trouble. Yeah, exactly. So he took the piece of the company So yeah, so it was it was literally just saying, hey, here I am. And I did ask one gentleman, a friend of mine to join with basically the same sales pitch Hey, I got this great game. It's fun. What do you think you want to come on board can't pay you? And he said no, which was fine, which actually turned in to, really to my advantage. And so they just instantly got what I was trying to do. And then it wasn't, hey, I need an accountant was Hey, I need a partner in this business. What do you think? And after a very short conversation they both agree. Marc Gutman 28:37 Episode brought to you by wild story. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of wild story, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what People say about you when you're not in the room. Wild story helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out at www.wildstory.com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. And so what are play tests? Can you can you give us a little insight into what that looks like? Rob Angel 29:44 Yeah, we had to physically play the game, to see if it was any good to change the rules to find out what work if it didn't work. Maybe the words weren't right, maybe this rule didn't work. And so every time we would play we would take notes And it changed the rules. And we thought I should we thought when we first produced the game, we thought we had the rules just perfect. We didn't, we had to change them four more times after four production runs. So we were, we were we didn't quite get it right. But we were willing to adapt and listen to our customers and and change it if it made sense. And it did for different time. Marc Gutman 30:26 Then what were some of those early mistakes or rule changes that you thought were perfect at the time but, you know, we might recognize as changes to the game. Rob Angel 30:39 I, it made perfect sense to me that unless you guess a word, right, you don't roll the dice. We could not get people to understand that. So if somebody didn't get a word, the other team just automatically roll. And so we had to change the verbiage over and over till finally people understood. They weren't supposed to go Excuse me roll the dice until the guy gets to work, right? People didn't understand the all blame triangle. So we had to be found on that one to more explanation. Marc Gutman 31:12 So when did you sell your very first game? And by the way was it called Pictionary from the start? Where did that name come from? Rob Angel 31:19 It was the three gentlemen that I played with after college, one of them who we were playing and we used to look in the dictionary for words, and he's looking up a word, all of a sudden, he starts playing this old game that he plays is getting called Pictionary, which ultimately became Balderdash, which actually laura Robinson created That and is a good friend of mine now. And it was a bluffing game. And he just said, Well, I'm playing Pictionary, and He kind of looks as you know, pictures diction. Why don't we call this Pictionary? Okay, that was it. resonated. It wasn't a no point in continuing the conversation. It was perfect. Marc Gutman 31:57 Yeah, when it's right, it's right. So when you know you Rob Angel 31:59 Yeah, I was like, Yeah, okay, fine. Move on. That was perfect. Marc Gutman 32:04 So, so Pictionary day one, what do you remember that first sale? What was that like? And who did you sell it to? Rob Angel 32:13 Of course, I remember that first sale. It was to the University of Washington bookstore. And I've never made a sales call before. And so I get there and it's 80 degrees, and I'm sweating and I'm ready to go and I get to the front door. And I realized that forgotten my travel sample sample. Okay, good one, Rob. So I go back to the car. And, of course, the cars lock, and the car still running. I was so nervous, but I forgot to turn the car off. So I'm standing there, and I'm beating on this old beater car of mine. And finally get the back door open. And I I go up to this woman and we go in and I'm thinking I'm gonna be in this big office. My vision, my vision board of what this first sale was going to be, and we wind up on the perfect gun. And I'm like, swooning. And the smells are getting to me. And I'm thinking what that you know, and then I started, why am I on perfume counter? This is this is a bookstore, they're selling perfume. I look around, they're selling mugs. They're selling all kinds of different things. Now this is starting to go Okay, I got a file this way. There's some there's something here. And ultimately, she starts asking me all these questions about advertising landscape shipping, and I was I have no idea what she means. But I you know, I I trusted her to to give me the correct information. She filled out the form. I don't even know how to do that. has a doomsayers, okay, send me the six games. That was it. I walked out my first day. Marc Gutman 33:51 Yeah. And so I imagine you're playing it cool and, and like you've been there before and you get the order and your hands probably shaking and you walk out the door and What does that feel like? Rob Angel 34:03 It was unbelievable. It was, it was validation for all the work that we'd put together my partners and I was it was validation that somebody wanted to buy this darn thing. We've been selling it to our friends and family was great, because we made retail it the math, but but to have somebody take six games was just an overwhelmingly positive, cool feeling. I couldn't, I couldn't stop smiling. It was like, okay, we're on the way. There's like it's like the aardvark. Okay, that was the new aardvark was that for sale. It was an amazing feeling. Marc Gutman 34:44 I can only imagine and so you're on your way you're feeling validated, but not to burst your bubble. It's only six games Rob Angel 34:51 Wait a minute. You know what, we only had 1000 to sell and and there were times when would stand, we can talk about it at an escalator trying to market Pictionary for seven or eight out. And I'd sell two games. I was ecstatic. Maybe it's six games, it's two games. Well, that's six more games that I sold yesterday. It was an exciting, exciting time, those little numbers were really important, because that's six more games in somebody's hands that didn't have yesterday at six more games that people are playing. So we were playing for the long haul. We didn't if we had sold a million games out of the box, probably would have never continued. But by selling six games, it was so important. So liberating, to make us make us go forward. harder and faster. Marc Gutman 35:40 Yeah, and you're playing for the long haul, which I assume means you're probably not making a ton of money at this point. So what are you doing for money at this time just to get by and, like, how are you keeping your spirits up and staying so positive? Like, at any point did you think this this isn't gonna happen? Rob Angel 35:59 All mine Yes, there's plenty of times. I was still waiting tables Margaery my partner was still working last year in a magazine and Jerry was a controller for a company. Yeah, we, we were living on $500 a month. I was still beating a beat up car. But but we're just so much fun, but not knowing what was going to happen one day to the next. Yeah, there was numerous times throughout this whole process where I won't say I wanted to quit. But I will say it just became daunting and overwhelming. But what drove me through, got me through was passion. gets you started. It's like the igniter. But passion fades and never days. When my passion faded. Was time it was just too much. But by by going through that, I started to love what I was doing. I loved my product and love my partners. I love what we were trying to accomplish. And that's what kept me going. And that was it was it was necessary. vision that we had that just kept pushing, pushing. It's just it just got me out of those moments where I said, you know, I'm just gonna stay in bed today and not worry about. Yeah. Marc Gutman 37:10 And so starting in 1985, when you, you know, put that first batch of games together, and that first run was 1000 games that were put together by hand and your apartment. How long did that take? And then, and then what was the next step after you sold 1000 games? Rob Angel 37:27 We put the games together to say by hand, that took about 14 months from the day I said, Okay, let's do this. And we had a few problems like collating of cars, and there was no internet. So we couldn't give our specs to a company and say, here are specs produce a game, we had nine different companies supplying parts, and they were all shipped to my tiny 900 square foot apartment, and we hand-assembled the first thousand game. So that was That was a lot of fun. Actually it was. So now we have 1000 games. Well now I have to sell them we have to market them and that's when the fun that's where the fun really started. Marc Gutman 38:11 Yeah and so maybe I miss misunderstood I it sounded to me like you were doing most of that selling and marketing in person knocking on doors House did you did you move those thousand games? Rob Angel 38:23 Well my Yeah, we did the first thousand games in Seattle and then we wound up ordering more and did those in sounds well kept it local, very important for our growth. I would literally take the game based on this experience. I had university bookstore, realizing Hmm. If anybody sells anything, they might as well sell picture. So I went to real estate companies. Why not? I went to pharmacies, I went to bookstores. I went to department stores. Anybody that sold anything I figured we might as well be selling Pictionary and What that did for us was people that normally wouldn't see a game, saw a picture, people go into norstrom. And they'd see along with the jewelry and handbags and see a game, because back then the only time you ever saw game is when it was a birthday, or the holidays. So now we are alternative distribution in all these different places. Pictionary is top of mind, people that normally wouldn't see it, and that really, really propelled our growth getting in front of them. He The other thing we used to do, we were, we were there was no manual. Let's put it that way on how to do this. So some people say you've got to break the rules. We forgot to ask what the rules were. So we just made our own. We would take the game and go up to a local bar. We'd open it up and we start playing. People go Do you know what? Hey, come play the game with us. And so they would play it. Oh, by the way, you can buy it next door. metropolis. So we were we were shameless, and getting that pencil in people's hands. Marc Gutman 40:06 And so you're growing. But, you know, again, there's seems to be a big gap between the early days and becoming the best selling board game in the world. How is how is the company growing? Like, what's the evolution look like? Is it still just the three of you? Are things changing? Have you? what point are you able to quit your day job? Rob Angel 40:29 When I when I was putting myself on fire when I was working in the restaurant, we used to have flaming coffees and I spilled one day almost let myself on fire. So that was, that was the physical moment I quit. No, we, we hustled our butts off in Seattle, and it took off. And so now we have to figure out how to scale the business. Demand is far outstripping our inventory and way outstripping our ability to fund our growth. So we had to license, the game. That's the only way we're gonna, we're gonna propel ourselves into the big leagues. And so we were approached by Milton Bradley, the biggest board game company in the world. And they came to us with a deal. They wanted a license, and we get to the meeting, and they they go Okay, and they slapped down this box on the table. How would you look at it we go. What's that? You know, well, this is a new picture a box. We're going to design for you guys. Oh, yeah, we're gonna change the, the graphics and the rules, and we're gonna change some of the words we're gonna sell a lot of these. What do you think? No, this is not what our Pictionary is. This is not what we envision. So we finally got a deal on paper. And they give us the biggest royalty rate. They've given anybody I'm 26 years old, I'm I'm beating driving a beater car 500 bucks a month, and I'm ready to sign this deal. But the one thing they wouldn't put in the contract is they would Production packaging without our approval. And I look at that, partners Look at that. And that vision was not aligned with our vision of Pictionary. And we didn't sign. I didn't sign it. All I had to do was sign this piece of paper and my life changes. And because it wasn't in the best interest of me, my partners are Pictionary. We didn't sign it, and we had no plan B. This isn't like, we don't sign this, we have to go we've got this other deal. Our other deal, going back to work slogging it out playing games in public, whatever we had to do to sample that game. But we were willing to do it. And as Simon Sinek calls it, you know, you're just cause it's when you're willing to sacrifice everything for your cause. fixturing was our cost. We were willing to sacrifice, that financial gain. And so we went back to work. Okay, okay. There was a couple of days of like, what have we done, but it was the right decision and Two weeks later, three weeks later, we get an offer, from a joint venture that we never would have gotten had we accepted the first one, we wound up with a bigger royalty rate, all our guarantees, and the guarantee they wouldn't touch the bags. And that was the genesis. And that was that propelled us into the big leagues. Very, very quickly. Marc Gutman 43:20 Yeah. And so I'm totally just impressed and kind of dismayed and, you know, like, you've worked so hard and you have this opportunity, and I get principles and I get values but to leave a deal on the table. Were you all thinking rethinking, like look, we're happy with this being small and what smaller and what it is and us not, you know, having a life our own lives our own livelihood built off of the these efforts, or did you just have faith that you knew that there'd be another deal coming down, you know, into the deal flow? Rob Angel 43:57 We had no idea no, we are We weren't, we weren't happy the way it was because we could see we had this this game it was resonating was going to go huge. And the fact we couldn't do it on our own was frustrated. I mean, it wasn't like, okay, you know, let's let's just see what happens. It's like crap. Let's make it happen. Let's keep working hard. Let's find another deal. So we didn't just sit back, and it wasn't us, saying let's keep it small and keep control. It was us saying this is the wrong deal. And so we waited for something else to come along. But if it did, we would have been okay. We were willing to roll the dice. So no, it was it was clear we needed a deal. But it it just didn't present itself for a while. Marc Gutman 44:44 What was so awful about the packaging? Rob Angel 44:48 You know, like, you know, there's certain memories that you have in your business life. This is one of the top four five from Pictionary. They slap it on the table. We dubbed it The eye chart. It had two problems with it. One, it was back then the trigger pursuit boxes which were square and had a fourfold vote for fold board. That's what they presented Pictionary. The original version was a long blue box that looks like a long shoe box. That was unique. We had to keep that uniqueness. And two, didn't look like in hindsight result it was black and white and it had swirls and you could barely read the name Pictionary. And they. They dumbed it down. We wanted Pictionary on somebody's counter, play plant in see it all the time. This was just ridiculous. It was just bad packaging. Marc Gutman 45:44 Well, it sounds like you're all made the right decision. So you have a licensing partner that they come in. They start to give you the capital that you need to grow and breathe. And what does that run look like for you and the team Rob Angel 45:57 looked amazing. Let me I'm gonna Back up. Just a quick quick side story about the original Pictionary box. It was a long blue box, which we loved, and thought it was great. But we didn't design the box. And then everything in between we see in the packaging. We didn't want to be like everybody else. We wanted to differentiate ourselves. And everybody was doing a fourfold. So we'd wanted something different. So we're talking about it, we're yelling at each other in a very collaborative way. And finally, I get overwhelmed. I go, I'm not feeling anything. So I go and sit at a desk by myself. I call it taking a time, I was just taking a break. there happened to be a picture of excuse me a piece of paper on the desk in front of me. I'm not thinking about the board design or anything else. But I pick it up and all of a sudden, it folds on itself, right folds into thirds. And I look at this thing and I go, Holy moly. That's our new board. That's our differentiation. So we designed the packaging. Round that board, but it never would have happened. Had it not taking that time out and just stop thinking about the problem. And that's really a point of, of my business life is whenever I got overwhelmed, whenever things weren't going right, I would stop. And then creative juices started flowing rather than getting frustrated. Just wanted to just wanted to share that with everybody. Marc Gutman 47:24 And I appreciate that. That's a great piece of insight. Rob Angel 47:27 Yeah, it was it was it was a lot of different things happen because of that. So yeah, so we did a licensing agreement with a joint venture. And they saw the, the trajectory of Pictionary. And so we just started selling the heck out of it all throughout the world. And they turned on the spicket. And the public responded, the public responded, and we just started selling millions of games over the next five years within the United States and an equal amount in Europe. Marc Gutman 47:57 And what are you doing? What's your role with the company at this time? Rob Angel 48:00 My partners and I were unique in that. Normally when a license happens, the license or they just walk away, but we started working harder. We didn't want anybody in charge of our futures. So we didn't want them riding off into the sunset and doing what they want with Pictionary. So we made sure to stay involved. We're coming up with new board games, we're coming up with new words, new packaging, whatever was required to make Pictionary success and keep it a success. We were there. And we would do things like when a new company would come on board in France, please do have us again on a plane, fly over, tell them, tell them what worked, what didn't work. And we supported them because we wanted them to be successful, rather than just hoping they were successful. So we stayed very actively law. Marc Gutman 48:53 And so the company's doing well. I imagine the original founders are making a good living at this point from the board game. You're not waiting tables, as you mentioned, and doing some other things. And so the game continues to rise and you continue to do Wow. And again, is there any moment during this period, rethink where you get in trouble or things just get sideways? Rob Angel 49:15 Yeah, it was 1987. We're already selling millions of games. And when loser draw, comes out the television show, and they launched their board game, as well. And for whatever reason, I thought they were going to wipe us off the mat. They have this television show, and it's a half hour commercial every day. And I think we don't have a chance. It's Burt Reynolds is celebrities. It's all these things. And my mind just couldn't get around it. And I started to panic. And here we are the biggest selling game in the country. But I still had my doubts and a beautiful thing happened. People start didn't know the difference between when loser draw and Pictionary because we were so friendly. established, people thought it was Pictionary with another day, our sales increased, not decreased. So it had a very positive influence on us. Where I originally thought we would do Marc Gutman 50:13 well. And that's, that's a piece of good fortune. So you ride that wave, you ride that wave. Rob Angel 50:19 I one thing we used to do is when when the show came out, we would advertise picture on either end of it. So, before or after, they'd be a Pictionary, TV commercial. People really emphasize that that drawing was Pictionary. Marc Gutman 50:33 Oh, brilliant. And so you make it through that that phase and you keep growing the business and you keep growing the business and, and eventually you come to an exit. Rob Angel 50:48 Yeah, we did. It was time 17 years, from when we launched in 1985. I was but 43 by now and I'd been with The product and the business for 17 years, 16 years. And I'll just be honest with you, you know, I developed other priorities I got married, I had some kids, and my, my passion hadn't faded. And so it was time for me to go in a different direction. And my partners felt the same way. They were ready to move on with their lives as well. Marc Gutman 51:22 Yeah, and so in 2001 you make a deal to sell the business to Mattel. Like, how did that feel? Was it hard? Rob Angel 51:31 Yeah, it it wasn't it wasn't. I mean, you can hear me just kind of stammering a little bit because it was so powerful that when it was going on, and it absolutely at that moment in my life and in time, was the right decision was the right thing to do, because I really did feel I wanted to sell but after being with my partners and and this game and this life for all that time, it was tough. I mean after after the sale, it was like losing a limb was actually Calling I was I was kind of a little wobbly trying to find my way again. So I took a little time off, which turned into several years. But at first, it was hard to refine my way. The family was great. Everything was good. But a little piece of me was gone. Marc Gutman 52:16 Yeah, imagine was really hard. I mean, you had not only built a business, you not only realized your dream, you did it in a way where Pictionary became the best selling board game in the world. So not only like, are you achieving all these goals, but you're like, kind of the king of your category. I mean, that's pretty awesome. pretty rare. Not a lot of people make it that far. And then you're not doing that anymore. So So what did you do? Rob Angel 52:47 I like that King of the category I'm gonna use that. I was pretty good. I decided to basically go back to my roots. So I talked about the bus and talked about being freedom And being in charge of my life. And I went back to them. I continued with that, rather than doing what everybody kept saying, I needed to do a rock, you've got to find a new business, you've got to find a new passion. You've got to start a job and be an entrepreneur all over again. No, I don't. That's your vision of what I should be doing. For me. I want to wake up and take my kids to school. I want to mentor people, I want to be involved in nonprofits. I want to enjoy my life, how I want to enjoy it. So I was plenty busy, but I didn't really need to start a new business. I kept my freedom while giving back and and as you say, being of service to other people. And for me, it worked out really well. And it gave me gave me purpose. Marc Gutman 53:44 Yeah. So what is life look like for you today? Rob Angel 53:47 I'm, I am. Back to that again. I've just finished as you've referenced a book on the Pictionary experience, called game changer. It was a fascinating process to write the book over five years remembering all these stories. And now I am, you know, marketing and promoting it. But it's, it's more just trying to get my story out of how, you know, a 23 year old waiter from Spokane, Washington, had a dream had an idea had a vision, an ally I got started with, with no plan. I didn't know what I was doing half the time. But it worked out. I made it work. And it's just it's just a great story. I think for anybody that has an idea or just wants to be inspired to try something new, or just likes Pictionary and want to know what happened. And so it's, it's been a really, really fun process. Marc Gutman 54:50 And we'll make sure to link to that in the show notes so that all our listeners have access to the book and and know where to find that. Rob as we wind down our time here today If the 20 year old self, your 20 year old self ran into you today, what do you think he'd say? Rob Angel 55:08 You know, I think he'd say, you know, well done. One thing that's always been important to me is to be me, be authentic, Be true to who I am. And I try not to buy into other people's vision of what I should be or shouldn't be. And I think I've managed to do that. So I think the 20 year old Rob felt the same way. And I think it'd be pleased with who we met. Marc Gutman 55:40 And that is Rob Angel. I loved his idea of finding your aardvark, getting started and never looking back. I also appreciate his experience of taking a time out when struggling with a problem. It seems as though the answer you're looking for never comes when you're trying so hard. So often the breakthrough happens when you stop and take a time out. I'll try to do that myself the next time I'm struggling to find a solution. Thank you again to rob Angel. Rob's book can be found at Amazon by searching for game changer, Rob Angel. And you can connect with him on social media on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram at the ROB Angel. Apparently the person with Rob angel is a hairdresser. In case you need that too. We'll make sure to link to all those resources in the show notes. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. Big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can't deny

The Pineapple Agency’s founder, Justin Moss is a passionate marketer whose love for events and music festivals merged to create an experiential marketing company that has worked with Proctor & Gamble, Google, Insomnia, Under Armor, Converse and more. Justin is sharing his story of producing raves as a teenager to creating one of the largest music festivals before they were popular, with the NY Times calling Justin “ahead of his time.” Today, he’s helping brands create memories for their consumers with big bold activations, while giving them a better ROI for their marketing spend.

• Justin’s Journey From Having A Brain Tumor To Starting His First Business

Justin was always a rambunctious red-headed child, but at the age of 8 he was diagnosed with a brain tumor and his parents were told he had 12 hours to live without surgery. Even at that point, he was tried hiding from doctors. After months of being in the hospital re-learning how to walk, Justin’s parents filed for bankruptcy, and they moved to Florida. While in Florida, Justin and his brother launched their first business by selling baseball cards. They weren’t simply trading cards though. They would go to shows and have a booth where they would make $2,000-$7,000 per show depending on their inventory.

While living in Florida and figuring out who he was as a person, Justin met a variety of people who helped shape who he became today. He discovered the street pharmaceutical industry and rave scene where no one was excluded and everyone was welcome. Justin produced his first rave at 16 and it was a huge failure. When the lighting and sound guy didn’t show up, Justin discovered he was seen to be invading on other promoters' turf. If this happened today, Justin says he would simply call in a replacement and not waste his time. After doing a lot of behind the scenes work on events, Justin landed on the professional paintball circuit. It was here that he wanted to marry his love for paintball and events which turned out successful, but not in a financial way. Although his event had thousands of attendees, was the biggest music festival at the time, and even had Tony Hawk in attendance, it wasn’t profitable. Justin decided to make a move to Denver and along with 2 others, took his passion for creating music festivals and bringing people together and launched a new experiential marketing agency in 2007.

Justin cared about building events and experiences and it took customers a long time to get and understand what experiential marketing was. The turning point for his agency was one day while at Buffalo Wild Wings where he was the ultimate card shark...handing his business cards out to anyone who would take one. He received a phone call from a guy who worked at Google and wanted ideas for the Democratic National Convention. Justin and his team executed substantial activation throughout Denver for Google and YouTube and that was the beginning of his success. Ultimately, it wasn’t what Justin loved because his passion was far greater for music and concerts and giving a voice to the consumer for the brand. In 2014, The Pineapple Agency was launched. Brands have guided our thoughts a lot of the way, but by creating experiences and leveraging emotional connections, you’re giving consumers a way to promote your brand and products. Now more than ever, consumers are empowered to say this is an amazing product or brand and I'm going to tell my friends about it. Justin says that if a brand is not at least participating in some sort of experiential campaign, then they will get left behind. Justin and The Pineapple Agency are bridging the gap between creating smiles and moments for consumers and giving brands a better ROI on their marketing spend than traditional social media would. Is your brand creating experiences for your consumers?

The Pineapple Agency

Wildstory

• 46:11 - 47:05 (54 sec JM) - let me start off by saying...what I loved was this opportunity to create a new music festival.

1. If a brand is not at least participating in some sort of experiential campaign, you’re going to get left behind.

Justin Moss 0:02 It was a success. And still to this day, it was a success in several ways, just not financially. Financially, it was a flop. But as one of my agents that we we worked with, and I won't mention her by name, but you know, one of the things that she had told me was, Justin, if you never do this again, you did it. If you go to burger flipping, you produced the biggest Music Festival at the time, and she was right. Marc Gutman 0:37 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado, this is the baby got backstory podcast. Where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big back stories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode Baby got backstory, how a savvy marketer combined music festivals, action sports and branding to build an experiential marketing agency that serves brands like Coke, Vivian and Anheuser Busch. Now if you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at iTunes. iTunes uses these as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on the apple charts. And ratings help us to build an audience, which then helps us continue to produce this show. On today's episode, we are talking to my good friend Justin moss is you're about to hear Justin is a passionate marketer who is fired up about events, music festivals and experiential marketing. Justin is the founder of the pineapple agency, which is known for creating big old activations for companies like Coke rivia n. Anheuser Busch, Procter and Gamble, Google Insomniac, under armor and converse. Those are just a couple recognizable brand names. Pineapple agency is responsible for generating millions of unique media impressions, hundreds of thousands of event attendees and brand loyalists and 10s of thousands of dollars worth of merchandise sold. Justin stories is a wild ride and I can't wait to share it with you. Justin was on the forefront of music festivals in the US. They weren't always a thing. And even the New York Times called HIS EVENT ahead of our time. And this is his story. Justin, what is the pineapple agency? Justin Moss 2:44 The Pineapple Agency is an experiential event marketing agency and I always like to say creative event agency as well because we work on we create live experiences that emotionally connect brands to their consumer and very authentic takeaways, but we also I have a background in concerts and music festivals. So we work very heavily on music festivals currently where we work we work on 17 of some of the biggest music festivals in the world. Everything from operations to production to marketing so we're we're pretty diverse firm. Marc Gutman 3:23 And I do want to get into that and talk a little bit more about what you're doing today and how you got there. But before we do that, let's go back let's go let's go way back was young Justin eight year old Justin, did he think he was going to be an experiential marketer? What was life like for you? At eight years old? Where'd you grow up? Justin Moss 3:39 No, I did. I did definitely didn't think I was going to be experiencial marketer or even in events. I wasn't even I wasn't a huge live event person. I was a rambunctious redhead. I was outside a lot. I rode bikes, I build handmade ramps and did crazy shit. Um, I had a lot of fun. I was very outdoorsy, um, I played a lot of sports. Yeah, I was I was a you know a go getter. I started my first business when I was nine with my brother Brandon. But even then didn't know that I was going to be a an event person or a business owner. But I was definitely a rambunctious eight year old and having, you know, overcome a lot of adversity really young from having a brain tumor to you know, my family filing bankruptcy. So just grew up really quickly. Marc Gutman 4:35 Well, we'll get into all that but brain tumor. Tell me about that. So, you you're eight years old, new and you get a brain tumor? Justin Moss 4:42 Yeah, it was. It was a pretty pretty crazy time. So I was having some severe headaches for for a long time and I was blacking out and my family kept taking me to doctor out Dr. And we were waiting for an MRI to become available because my mom at that time this is 8687 didn't want me to have a CAT scan because she believed that the dyes that they put in your arm and your you know, that goes straight to your brain would cause cancer and that's a whole nother podcast, but um, they finally it was around October 1987 doctors had diagnosed me with food allergies, specifically nuts and chocolate. So for an eight year old, during Halloween, not being able to eat nuts and chocolate, I was like what the fuck? So, um, anyway, I there was a point in time I believe it was a over a period of 24 maybe 48 hours that I became really, really frail and fragile and passed out and my mom and dad had rushed me to the hospital. And they obviously you know, had no choice but to do a CAT scan. It might have been an MRI I really don't know. And essentially they found a really rare tumor that is not normally found in children that was on my cerebellum. And, um, basically, I they gave my mom and dad, you know, the news that if they couldn't subside the tumor and make it smaller, that I probably had about 12 hours to live on, but obviously they had to try to subsided or go in immediately. So, um, luckily they were able to subside it to where they gave my mom and dad a little bit of breathing room this I was rushed to Monmouth County Hospital in New Jersey. And so what ended up happening is the doctors there on gave my parents a choice either have a normal neurosurgeon removed The tumor and I say normal like there's no neurosurgeon that's normal. They're all amazing. You know you got to be a special type of crazy to dig into somebody's brain but on the other alternative was fly me to Philadelphia children's hospital immediately and have a at that time a world renowned child neurology neurosurgeon removed the tumor. And at that time that neurosurgeon was one of the first to remove conjoined twins by the brain. And so basically my parents with guidance from the doctors decided to fly me to Philadelphia Children's Hospital, which still today is one of the most renowned children's hospitals in the world for brain tumors and and neuro neurosurgery. And so they I was flown there, I think within within less than a day, maybe 15-20 hours. Um, I was brought into surgery. I was the first kid to go into surgery fully clothed, because as I told you earlier, I was a rambunctious crazy redhead, and I ran away. And they had to find me in a elevator and I'm not lying. And they didn't strike me down or anything, but they got me into the the emergency surgery. And the last thing I remember is them putting the mask on me and me going to bed and then cutting my clothes off. And then many, many hours later, I came out of surgery. I was awake but not able to walk as the tumor was on my cerebellum. So that affects your your walking and your your balance. Yeah, and that's, that's where it is. I mean, obviously, I could go on and on and on. But that's that's where it ended. Sort of. Marc Gutman 8:50 Yeah, that had to be terrifying. I mean, was there further treatment like your parents and your brother? I mean, that was going on there. Justin Moss 8:58 Yeah, it was. It was pretty, it was, it's pretty surreal if I you know, think back at it now. So my mom was induced with my baby sister on in Staten Island. My mom wanted to have all of her children born in the same hospital. So my mom was induced. And then she was rushed to Philadelphia for my surgery on so I had a new baby sister going into surgery. And then I basically had to learn to walk again. So not in the sense that I didn't know how to do it, but my brain and my body were not working together. So it was months of physical therapy and learning to walk and I wasn't able to get discharged from the hospital until I was able to walk. And so luckily, I think it was about three months, I was finally discharged from the hospital. And um, you know, at that time my father was driving back and forth from New Jersey to Philadelphia pretty much every day. Marc Gutman 10:02 What was his business? Justin Moss 10:04 My father and still is in his in the blinds business window treatments and has had retail stores and at that time he had carpet and tile stores as well. He has been in the business 45 years. Yeah. And so unfortunately, during that time, my father's partner was embezzling money. And so, um, shortly after my tumor, my parents you know, made the difficult decision to file bankruptcy and move the family to South Florida to kind of start over and that's um, you know, Marc Gutman 10:43 What was that like as a kid, you know, like your parents filing for bankruptcy? Were you oblivious or did that like, hit you hard? I mean, I know as a little kid you pick up on a lot of things and certainly being part of a bankrupt family isn't you know, in the cool sector of of young kid, young kid, labels. Justin Moss 11:00 Yeah, I mean, I would say that I was a little bit oblivious, but I understood a little bit on where I grew up in New Jersey was very wealthy area. And, you know, my family, you know, at that time lost everything pretty much So you started realizing, you know, your friend's parents are driving Mercedes is in Cadillacs and your family's driving, you know, a 19 you know, a 20 year old car, you know, or can't do landscaping in their house and you know, just little things like that. But I didn't understand really what was going on until I was much, much older. Luckily, we had, at that time, I had a really close family friend that I ended up staying with, to finish my eighth grade year and my mom and my dad, and I'm sorry, my mom and my brother and my little sister moved to South Florida and my dad stayed in New York City, working for somebody so he could build income, you know, to move everybody. So I understood that that was a little weird and that why am I staying at my friend's house as, you know, an 11-12 year old kid? But it wasn't until I was much older, and understood the gravity of what was going on and that we had family friends bringing us food because my mom and dad were, you know, having a tough time. So, yeah, you know, it, you know, you look back at it now. And it's, you're like, I'm glad that my mom and dad insulated me the way they did you know, my brother and my sister were older than me. So they, they understood more, but they you know, everybody insulated me a little bit more. Marc Gutman 12:44 Yeah, and it must have been tough, but, you know, also during that time, I understand that you and your brother Brandon started your first business together. Justin Moss 12:54 Yeah, yeah. So um, you know, I'm even today I probably didn't think this way back then. But I'm a believer in everything happens for a reason for whatever reason that is, and me and my brother were always big baseball card fans. I was I was a huge baseball fan growing up, and I collected baseball cards and we had a family friend that owned a pharmacy and, um, you know, back then hopefully a lot of your listeners will be around my age will know that pharmacies back then were more mom and pop. And they were not just pharmacies, but they were like small convenience stores. And, um, this family friend every I don't know, so often, you know, more often than none because, you know, I was in the hospital and at home, he would bring me boxes of baseball cards, you know, on open tops, Don Ross baseball cards, and I would open them. So I amassed this huge amount of baseball cards. And so my brother and I had been going to baseball card shows, you know, for a long time, which unfortunately, don't really exist, but we'd go to these card shows, and go and buy baseball cards and sell ours. So what we decided to do was start a baseball card business, but actually setting up a booth at these card shows. So we bought all the showcases, and we started having our mom and dad, you know, schlep us from Pennsylvania to New York to all over jersey, setting up and selling baseball cards. And then on one of the things we segwayed into, and I say pivot, I'll say pivot, but back then I didn't know what pivot meant. We realized let's sell the baseball card holders so the big cardboard boxes and the plastic sleeves. And so we threw my dad, we came across somebody that was buying everything in China, importing, importing it here and we ended up buying baseball cards, supplies and going to shows and selling baseball card supplies. So that was my first quote-unquote, business. Marc Gutman 15:03 When it came of that business? Did it have a name? Did it have an exit? What became of that? Justin Moss 15:09 No, no, it didn't have a name. It was it was, um, you know, we were fondly known as the two brothers at the baseball card shows, but no real official name and it just sort of evaporated nothing really. I can't actually even I mean, obviously, there was no exit. I think, you know, my brother and I just got older and my brother certainly got older and didn't want to schlep around with his younger brother anymore. And we made a little bit of money and, and did good things. We actually tried to get into the bicycle business after that. So that didn't go anywhere. But um, yeah, it just sort of faded away. Marc Gutman 15:53 Which, like, how much money were you making? Are you making like real money? Were you making enough to do anything cool? Justin Moss 15:59 Yeah, I mean, I think to two young kids, we were we were doing pretty well. I mean, we would go to a baseball card show and make anywhere from, you know, a couple of grand to, you know, 5/6/7 grand, you know, it really just depended, you know, it depended on our inventory. My brother was what kind of led the charge of walking around the shows trying to sort of buy and sell some of our inventory to get new inventory. But look at that, at the end of the day, we had no idea what we were doing. We were just two kids making some change. And, you know, of course, at that time, my mom and dad weren't like, well, you owe me for the gas and driving me there. And you know, all the costs that are associated with the business other than paying our fees to go to the card shows. Um, but yeah, I mean, it was it was fun, and I actually learned a lot but I wouldn't say it was. I didn't have any aspirations of becoming a global entrepreneur in the baseball card world. Marc Gutman 17:04 Yeah, and you say you say pocket change, but man, like a couple grand at that age, like, I think in college I lived on like $20 a week. So to give a sense of like, I mean, that's a lot of money. That's really, really great. And so you guys have this, this baseball card business, you get a taste of what it's like to have a business. Then what happens? Do you start another business once your brother goes on and does his own thing? Justin Moss 17:26 Yeah, so we tried to get into the bicycle business, and my brother and I were calling the different bicycle companies. And once again, nothing really happened there. And then I'm, like I said, we ended up moving to South Florida and my life really changed a lot. When we moved to South Florida. It was it was a very different experience. I had understood a little bit more about what had happened with my family. Um, I went to a school that was a very, very different than what I was used to In the sense that was much more cultured, a lot more diverse mix of people. I didn't have any friends. I was very, for many, I'd say, at probably, least till I was 14, or 15. I was I had several different identities in the sense that I didn't know who I wanted to be. I didn't know if I was a skater. I didn't know if I was a thug. I didn't know if I was an athlete, you know, I wasn't sure. And I was, you know, all the kids that I grew up with in New Jersey, I grown up with them, you know, from preschool till Middle School. So that's what I knew. And then moving to Florida, I was meeting all these different groups of people I didn't know and so, but I'm actually glad because I believe that moving to Florida, really shaped it definitely shaped who I am and what I do for a living now. For sure. Marc Gutman 19:00 Yeah, so what was the next business? You started? Like? You're in Florida? Did you just start looking for ways to make money or to flex that entrepreneurial muscle? Justin Moss 19:10 Yeah, I mean, how honest Do you want me to be? Marc Gutman 19:14 As honest as you want to be. Justin Moss 19:17 Um, yeah. So I had discovered the street pharmaceutical industry, and, um, took a liking to that. I think it was because I became friends with everybody very, very quickly. And, you know, I, I always had this knack for, I guess, somewhat being a leader or a seller also, you know, a salesman and so, through that very quickly, I had discovered the rave scene. So for you or those that don't know what that is, it's it's basically the underground music scene for electronic music or as they call it. Me or had brought me to the love of producing and producing events and I absolutely fell in love. And so my next business was I became a rave promoter. And I started promoting on raves in 1990. My first one was in 1996. Marc Gutman 21:22 So how old are you? Just to give some context? Justin Moss 21:24 I turned 40 in May, last May. Marc Gutman 21:26 No, no, no. How old were you? When you when you produce that first rave? Justin Moss 21:29 I'm sorry. Oh, God, I was what? 16-17 maybe I was 15-16 I'd have to do the math, but I think I was 16. Marc Gutman 21:38 That's not very old. I mean, what that first one looked like like, How big was it? Like how much overhead was there? Like, was it a sizable event? Justin Moss 21:46 It was a flop. It was okay, let me back up because it was a flop because we need no money and we lost money. But so it was called Old School jam. And I had rented a warehouse in Fort Myers, Florida and old skate park, it was a skate park warehouse. And I had booked all the DJs now Now, mind you, I didn't know what I was doing. I knew a lot of people, but I didn't know what I was doing, you know, and there's a lot that goes into even a small rave. And so what ended up happening was, I drive to Fort Myers. And and, you know, I think a lot of business people can can relate to at least some part of this story. I go there and what we do, it's called loading and loading in a show. Excuse me, so we're getting ready. We're loading in the show. And my lighting and sound guy never showed up. So he was the same person from from South Florida. He never showed up. And so for hours and hours and hours, I'm panicking, and I'm calling him and I'm calling him and I'm calling him and no answer no answer. He never answers called his roommates, no answer. So I don't know maybe seven, eight o'clock. Call The DJ start showing up now we're talking about not superstar DJs like you see today, but they were, you know, one DJ was from Atlanta, you know, we had some pretty, pretty nice sized DJs You know, I think the total budget was like 12 or $15,000. And basically what ended up happening is we couldn't open and we had no sound we had no lighting we had, I would say at least 1000 people in the parking lot waiting to get in. And so it was a complete failure. It was it was a flop and, and, and Marc Gutman 23:34 how'd that feel, I mean, how'd that feel? You had to like go like, I can imagine that moment. Like you're you're thinking this is going to be this incredible success. You're doing the thing you love to do. I mean, talk about that moment. Take me back to that time where you like, had to like Who did you tell, like, Did you get like, you're gonna I'm imagining fire festival, you know, like, did you did you have to like, Who did you tell us? You have to get on a car and yell Hey, you know,it's the Not gonna happen, like, like, what happened? Justin Moss 24:02 Yeah, I mean, um, I mean, from an emotional standpoint, I was beside myself, I I screamed, I cried, I yelled, I wanted to punch somebody in the face. I you know, just every emotion possible. I felt like a moron. You know, I was a new promoter. You know, nobody knew who I was. Um, but yeah, I mean, yeah, I essentially at some point, I had to make the decision to call it you know, and say, everybody go home, you know, it's, it's not happening and, um, you know, every, you know, there were people that, you know, high five, me and people, you know, the DJs were all sympathetic. And, you know, later on I found out that I basically got screwed over by other promoters and that's why the lighting and sound guy never showed up because I was ascending You know, invading on their turf and taking business away from them. And that's, that's a whole story. But But Marc Gutman 25:08 now what is that story? What happened? They like, they pay that guy off or they pressure him not to show? Justin Moss 25:13 Yeah, they they basically pressured him not to show and, you know, he did it. And years later years later I did another show not years 1998 I did another show and I actually, um, this guy and I sort of had talked throughout the years, you know, and and he ended up doing the lighting for this show in 1998 for free to sort of make up for the show that he screwed me on. And so, but yeah, I mean, he basically got muscled into not showing up. And you know, I would say that is, you know, one of the life lessons and business lessons I learned. You know, of course now being a seasoned event producer, I would have just gotten on The phone and called other lighting and sound companies, you know and said, hey, I've got this warehouse and I've got money, come bring a lighting and sound rig and I wouldn't have spent hours and hours trying to get ahold of this guy because clearly at some point, I should have been like, this guy's not showing up, either he's in a car accident, or he's dead, you know, or whatever, you know. Um, so you, you you live and learn, but it took me a little bit of time to sort of get over that, for sure. Marc Gutman 26:32 Yeah, so how'd you bounce back, which when was your next event? Justin Moss 26:36 So my next event well, so my next event that I fully produced was in 1998. But prior to that, I had been sort of doing underground. No pun intended, underground sort of work and where I was investing in other promoters or other parties, and not you know, my name is wasn't given my production, you know, name, which at that time was end two productions didn't um, I was just sort of behind the scenes if you will. And then in 1998, I partnered with my buddy Vinnie, and another partner, Todd, who Todd ultimately was my partner in several different businesses. But we produced a very, very successful event in Miami, and yeah, we killed it. So yeah, my career just kept going. And we picked ourselves up. Marc Gutman 27:32 Yeah. And so you're starting to promote events and do that, but then you also get into paintball, right? Justin Moss 27:39 Yeah, yeah. So um, you know, I I got into paintball when I was 12 when I moved to South Florida, and I ended up playing in playing professional paintball, and amateur paintball, basically, overall competitive paintball for over 14 years. I went into the paintball business. I opened a paintball field in a store, here in Denver, Colorado when I when I moved here, and ultimately merged my passion for producing fast concerts and live events too painful to kind of move into my next venture, which was music festivals. Marc Gutman 28:23 Yeah, but before we get into that, like, what is professional paintball? Justin Moss 28:27 Oh, it's amazing. It's, it's. So um, without going into too much detail in story, the professional circuit has evolved much a lot over the last, you know, 20 years. But when I first started, the core event was basically Capture the Flag, either five man teams, which would be five on five or 10 man teams 10 on 10 and we played on huge fields. In the middle of the woods, and it was captured the flag and then as the sport evolved, they moved into more of a, what they call a speedball setting. And the whole transition was to try to get paintball on TV. And TV was not friendly could not be friendly. In the woods, you know, there was a lot of, you know, a lot of, you know, hidden objects, you know, the cameras couldn't get good angles. So, speed ball basically developed and was a much faster paced sport. But essentially, you have a group of humans that are have paintball guns today, the paintball guns shoot anywhere up to 20 balls a second, and you're battling it out on a field, five on 510 on 10, or seven on seven on the circuit, you know, spans different cities and states in the United States and then goes over to Europe with a sister league so I played all over the world. Professional paintball. Marc Gutman 30:01 Yeah. And like, you know, what I'm interested in is like, what is the professional part look like? I mean, is this like, kind of like, you know, reminiscent of the movie dodgeball? Are you guys you know, do you have groupies? are you flying around in jets? Or is it more like I mean, like, what is profession? Like, what's the professional circuit? Yeah, as you call it. what's what's the circuit look like for pro paintball? Justin Moss 30:23 Yeah, so it's definitely not NFL. It's more dodgeball for sure. There are definitely groupies. I did not have any. But there are groupies on the so tournament's themselves are made up of amateur and Pro. And so the amateur goes from rookie to amateur to pro and the pro circuit right now today I think is made up of 18 or 20 pro teams. Mind you. I've been out of it for several years now, but I'm usually what you what you had in the sport is you had one person that either owned a paintball field They're owned a paintball business or in one case, there was a doctor that his kids played paintball and he was very wealthy and he started a professional paintball team and funded the team. A lot of times what happens is all your expenses are paid for, to travel and then you have sponsors within the paintball industry that pay for some of that, but also get you equipment. And then when you when you divide up the winnings, and back then the winnings were not very much they were anywhere from 15,000 to 50,000, depending on the sport or depending on the tournament, but you got to remember for 10, 12, 15 guys on a team, you know, it wasn't a lot of money to be honest. And most guys that made the money in the sport like I had a very close friend that back then was, you know, considered the Michael Jordan of the sport. I think he made at one time three 400 grand a year, which is real money for sure. But that was Based on him working for a paintball company, and then also putting his name on products and getting, you know, $1 or $5 per product sold, so it wasn't your true essence of, Hey, I'm signing up for this team and signing a $400,000 contract. Marc Gutman 32:16 Yeah, so you're buying your own drinks pretty much every night. Yeah, that's what I'm gathering. Yeah. And so, so we can move on from Paintball in just a second. But I do have one question. Young Justin moss, the paintball pro paintball Pro. What were you known for? What was like your signature move? Or what were what was your role on the team? Justin Moss 32:35 Yeah, I was known for being very small and fast and pretty. I don't want to say crazy, but I guess a little crazy in the sense that I was what you call a front player and fun players are kind of like a running back. In football where we are sometimes sacrificed. We are running straight down the field where Moving to the most forward position as fast as we can. So there were times that what we also had a bass player for instance in the back player was sort of your on field coach and so for instance, they might say Justin or we had codes but for you know for for clarity or ease I would say Justin gota you know, the steak and I would run as fast as I could to go to the snake or one of my you know, plant one of my signature moves was to run as fast as I could out of the box which they called it you know, the the flag box at the start of the game, and try to shoot as many people as I could running as fast as I could down the field while the rest of my team came behind me. So you had players that would the opposite the opposing team would focus their guns on me, while my team would focus the guns on them and essentially You know, advanced the field and win the game pretty quickly. Marc Gutman 34:07 This episode brought to you by wild story. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. Without the generous support of wild story, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline, or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wild story helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve, so that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out at www dot wildstorm dot com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show you are you into paintball? and I'm guessing just based on some of the winnings or we're talking about, you're like, yeah, this is cool. But this probably isn't the future for me, this probably isn't gonna help me achieve my goals or be I'm not gonna be long for this world and you're, you're getting into producing music festivals and you produced your first major Music Festival at 22. That must have been that must have been a big, big moment for a young kid. Justin Moss 35:36 Yeah, it was it was you know, once again, if I if I every single emotion that a human can have in that year happened to me. But yeah, I was I was, um, you know, technically at the forefront of producing multi day, multi styles of music festivals in America. I was double by the New York Times is ahead of my time. Now obviously in America we had Woodstock and us fast and staples of the music festival world, so I would never take anything away from those guys and girls that paved the way. Um, but at that time '01-'02 our festivals in America were very jam band related. So the dead we're doing, you know, three day festivals with campaign jam band festivals were popping up with camping, but we didn't have a lot of multi day multi style festivals you had Lollapalooza, but at that time was still very much a tour. Coachella launched in 99. But it was a flop and nobody really knew who they were but they were except for on the West Coast pretty much. And so I started really kind of seeing what was going on in Europe and Asia and Europe had been at that time probably 10 maybe 15 years ahead of us in music festivals, maybe not quite 15, right 10 years ahead of us, they had some major major festivals like love fast and Leeds and reading and just big, big festivals and and so what I wanted to do and then where I got this idea was, I wanted to marry my love of producing an event and paintball and my love for paintball was how do we get paintball into the mainstream? And, you know, people had been trying to do that for years and years and years. And so what I thought of was, well, skateboarding is in the mainstream now. BMX is in the mainstream right now. Moto X is in the mainstream right now. And of course, music is in the mainstream. So let's bring them all together and have a fucking Music Festival, and so on in 2002. I launched Well, the festival actually happened in April of 2002. It was called Beyond extreme sports Music Festival. Calm I had raised a bunch of money from at that time a.com millionaire and ran remember this is in 2000, 2001 and.com millionaires were not really a huge thing. There wasn't a ton of them at the time. And we produced a festival that we had five stages over 75 artists we had Stone Temple Pilots, outcasts, ludicrous. Snoop Dogg method, man, third eye. Marc Gutman 38:38 How'd you do this? So like, you're 22 I imagine you're 21 when you're getting this thing going, maybe even younger. You get someone to give you a ton of money. And you're getting these huge I mean, like how do you pull this together? That's like crazy. Justin Moss 38:51 Yeah, well marc, we're gonna need another couple of hours. So I'll try to streamline at the best I can, but Essentially, just like in 1996, when I didn't know what I was doing producing a rave in 2000 2001 2002, I knew what I was doing producing something. But I had no idea how to produce a multi day music festival that we were trying to get 40/50/60,000 people at. And my background producing underground shows, you know, it was didn't transition very well because we were not used to producing big outdoor shows with big stages. We never booked big huge bands like at that time Stone Temple Pilots was one of the biggest rock bands in the world, you know, and so, we really cut our teeth on making a lot of mistakes, getting a lot of people in the music industry, on our side somehow and believing in what we're doing. Doing and we we bullshitted our way to making it happen. Marc Gutman 40:06 That's crazy to me. And so that went off and and was a huge success. Justin Moss 40:11 Yeah, so it was it was a success. And still to this day, it was a success in several ways, just not financially, financially, it was a flop. But as one of my agents that we worked with, and I won't mention her by name, but you know, at that time, she was an agent for a huge huge ban that we had on the lineup. And, um, you know, one of the things that she had told me was, Justin, if you never do this again, you did it. If you go to burger flipping, you produced the biggest Music Festival at the time. And, and she was right. I mean, we brought some of the biggest artists together. Tony Hawk was there doing a whole extreme sports area. We we It happened, there was thousands and thousands of people there. But we did a lot of things wrong. And because of that, we lost a lot of money. And essentially, we were going to do it again the next year. And that was sort of the business model. And it still is today that it takes two to three up to five years for a festival to become profitable, and build brand awareness. And we had always thought that and we thought that it was going to be longer because once again festivals in America were not, you know, as they weren't really a thing. And what ended up happening was our investor got into some legal trouble. We made some mistakes, and then ultimately, we just had to move on and close the company. And that's when I moved to Denver. Marc Gutman 41:52 Yeah, and then so where does your career go from there? So you, you're close the company, you're, I imagine you have a little bit of your tail between Your legs here. It didn't go the way you wanted. You just shut down what you thought was going to be your future. You moved to Denver. What next? Justin Moss 42:09 Yeah, I definitely was. I'm pretty devastated. You know, I, I that that time and still very much today. My passion is music festivals. My love is bringing people together in mass gatherings like that. And I just I had an opportunity that developed very quickly to open a paintball field in a retail paintball store here in Denver. And so I did that very quickly. Um, so I didn't transition very, I mean, to give you an idea, you know, Joe, but I have to show happened in April, April 12th, 13th, and 14th. I had moved to Denver July 4 weekend and opened my paintball field I want to say by the end of July, August, so trip Additionally, I moved very, very quickly. On the idea of moving here was, I do another business paintballs still very much my passion. I could take the time to decompress, figure out what I did wrong, figure out what I did right? And raise some money and do the festival again or create another festival. And so I started doing that and I did some shows here and there while owning the paintball field, some smaller club shows I consulted on some bigger projects as a festival consultant as festival started gaining some popularity and momentum. And I was just never able to raise capital. I was never a very good capital raiser. I happen to fall into this investor originally, um, and but my partner in the music festival His name's Todd, still very, very dear friend of mine. We had really reached out to a couple of consultants. And, you know, once again, I was still pretty green in the business world, realizing that a lot of consultants were bullshitters. But we ended up finding a consultant that, in the long run turned out to be a complete bullshit, you know, but he brought us together and created sort of this two day working session and brought these two guys in from from another digital marketing agency at the time. And we were basically creating a new music festival. You know, this was 2004 2005 and we were trying to figure out, you know, what was going to be the next big Music Festival and through that session, we had come up with a concept. But But what really happened that was really exciting was, like I said, the country Sultan ended up being, you know, not a consultant and just not a good person. But the other two guys, you know, we became very close with and ultimately, I started basically a backup they had come to me and said, Look, we do digital marketing. There's all sorts of great stuff happening. You guys know live events, you guys built something amazing and you know, still continue to produce amazing things. Let's put that together and look at this new emerging marketing strategy called experiential marketing or if you really want to get down to the roots, guerilla marketing or PR stunts, and why don't we create a new agency that focuses on experiential marketing and so I started my first experiential marketing agency in 2007, with with three other partners. Marc Gutman 45:56 and so it sounds like a great idea, you know, Let's start an experiential marketing. We love this stuff. But who are your first customers? How did you start to get customers? Like what did that look like? Were you immediately good at it? Was it a little rough in the beginning? Justin Moss 46:11 Yeah, it was. Well, let me let me start off by saying that I did not love experiential one I, I actually didn't even care for it. What I cared for was building events and building experiences. And it took me a very long time to really get an understand what experiential was and what marketing was because you got to remember, I came from the event world, I came from concerts and festivals, which was very different than marketing a product, whether it's digital or experiential, because my product was the band. My product was sometimes the brand of the festival, but mostly the band if I'm booking m&m, they're coming to see mmm and that's what I have to market and so I was very resistant, but what I loved was this opportunity to create a new music festival. And while I'm creating this new music festival, and going out and raising money or whatever it was that I was going to do to get this music festival in the ground, I was going to be able to produce things for clients. And so we we struggled with finding clients, because we were, we had great branding, we had great material, but I would say I and another partner were the only real sales guys if you will, the real guy to go out and getters and you know, the other partner was of strategist and can talk the game, but ultimately me and the other guy had to get people on the hook. And so what ended up happening which kind of turned the corner for us and it this is crazy, but I was basically at Buffalo Wild Wings and at the time, I was a card shark Meaning I handed my business card out to anybody that would take it and listen, I got a call. I don't I don't, I can't recollect the timeframe, but I basically get a call. I let's call it a few months later, and it's a gentleman and he's like, hey, it's Glenn. You know, do you remember me? And I'm like, I know. He's like, well, I'm working with Google. And I'm, we're working on the democratic national convention for 2008 in Denver. And I wanted to know, if you can, you know, come up with some ideas and whatnot. And so, long story short, we came up with some ideas, we use their ideas as well and we executed a pretty substantial activation all around a few different areas around Denver for Google and YouTube. Marc Gutman 48:59 And so that must been an amazing opportunity, an amazing break for the business. Justin Moss 49:03 Yeah, I mean, it was it was incredible. But, you know, look over the years we we ran the company until basically 2014. My one partner Todd ended up leaving and then I ended up buying out another partner. And then we did some amazing events. We won some awards, but ultimately, it just wasn't it wasn't what I loved it the way we were operating wasn't anything I enjoyed at the time, you know, once I kind of grew up into the industry, but, you know, unlike my statement earlier, I learned to love experiential marketing and I learned a lot about it and I learned to have just as much passion for experiential marketing as I did for music festivals and concerts. Because of, sort of, I guess part of it was because it was easier for me to get a brand to buy into me creating an experiential campaign for them versus me creating a festival. But at the same time, I just really love giving a voice to the consumer for the brand but also for the consumer and not talking at the consumer but talking with the consumer about a brand or about a product or service. And that's what experiential at the root is. And so I you know, today started the pineapple agency in 2014. And absolutely have never looked back. Marc Gutman 50:36 Now, let's talk about that a little bit, that angle of experiential as the voice of the consumer and that it's for the consumer, like, why is that so important? Justin Moss 50:47 Um, for several for several reasons. One, you know, if you look back at the history of marketing and advertising and then I'm not going to pretend to be a student of it, but You know, brands have guided our thoughts, a lot of the way you know, if brands want the color purple to be popular that year, they're gonna do it, you know, and they're gonna make it popular and you're inundated with it from TV to radio. You know, of course, now you have internet, you know, the small screen TV, and you can't get away with you can't get away from it. It's it's everywhere. It's, it's, and you know now, by creating experiences, by leveraging those emotional connections, you're not only giving the consumer a choice to attend those connect those experiences and those live interactions, but you're also giving them a way to promote it, and a way to promote the brand and the service and the product through social media. Through connectivity, whether it's text messaging, or, or whatever. And so, you know, now more than ever, consumers are empowered to say, you know what, this is an amazing product. This is an amazing brand. And I'm going to tell my friends about it. And oh, by the way, I was involved in this experience that was produced by the brand. But it connected me with the brand and made me feel like I was important and it wasn't about brand it was about this experience. And, you know, versus, you know, here, put a coke in your hand and love it and drink it and then go to the store and buy some because you loved it and drink it, if that makes sense. Marc Gutman 52:47 No, it makes perfect sense. And I think that's a great way that you articulated that. I mean, to me, so much of branding is that you know, especially in the modern era of branding as we've turned and we have to control Have the brand over to the consumer and in control of telling the story to the consumer, now we can influence it, we can give them some information. But ultimately, everyone is out there with their own magical storytelling device in their hands, as well as just the way they do it with their own the old fashioned way with her mouth in their minds, but they're out there telling that story to give them that platform is a great way to further the brand story and allow customers to do an authentic way. Justin Moss 53:29 Absolutely. And And, look, I'm opinionated. And those that know me know that. But I'm also you know, as I've said many times very passionate so that sometimes can clog my opinion. But with that being said, I'm a firm believer that if a brand is not at least participating in some sort of experiential campaign, and I experiential these days is a is used a lot and that could be a Anything from a PR stunt to building a better experience in your tradeshow booth for a b2b, a product launch a PR stunt. Uh, you know, it could be so many things. But I'm a believer that if you're not involved in experiential in some way, then you're gonna get left behind, you know, and you're not, you're not going to be around, you know, similar to the way the website you know, today, you know, in the 90s if you didn't have a website, it was like, yeah, you don't have a website, you know, today, could you imagine any brands larger small, not having some sort of presence on the web? It's, it - wouldn't happen. Marc Gutman 54:42 Yeah, no. And so, experiential is the new internet. Justin Moss 54:46 I mean, to a point, I mean, I guess Yes. I mean, if I'm being honest, I think that experiential is is is is just as important right now. And you know what, it's funny. You know, we're talking in April of 2020. And we're obviously in this this crazy world right now, you know, with this pandemic, and I actually have a letter that is going out in a couple of days to, you know, sort of an open letter to not just my clients but the world, in in that do not let experiences fall by the wayside. We are living right now in these last four or five weeks in a world of digital more than ever, digital live cast, digital, you know, concerts, digital marketing, whatever. But humans need experience they need interaction, and event planners, experiential marketers, live musicians, we need to come together and bring experiences back faster and more powerful than ever when this pandemic is over. Because that's the way the world is going to stay together. And come together even more through live experiences through hugging, through sharing that goose bump moment, watching the Rolling Stones on stage being at an experience for Google or Under Armour, you know, that's how we're going to come together again. Marc Gutman 56:16 Yeah. So thanks for sharing that. That's awesome. I'm fired up. I actually got some, some goosebumps just, you know, thinking about it, because it is tough. And, you know, you've mentioned this several times about how important experiences are how important it is for us to share them as a collective audience. Like, like, what do you love so much about both experiences and experiential marketing? Justin Moss 56:41 Yeah, so in layman's terms or my layman answer is, I love the smiles. I love the, the, the moments that you know you're creating for these, these people. every concert, every festival every experiential campaign, big or small that I have the ability to be at my I go on stage, I stand in the background in the corner. I watch I watch the smiles and I'm I I love it. I think that that's what I was put here to do. bring people together and make them smile. And I think from the more strategic business marketing guy that Justin is, what I love about it is that you are once again giving the voice to the consumer, but you're allowing a brand to get an ROI for dollar for dollar spend for less than they get on traditional media. On they reach KPIs. I believe faster even though they're harder to track through alignment. experience than, say, a TV commercial, but they reach their KPIs and their goals faster through a live experience. So we bridge the gap between creating smiles and moments. And for our clients because we're partners, their marketing strategy and selling their products or services ultimately, you know, so hopefully that made sense. Marc Gutman 58:29 total sense, it makes complete sense. Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate that. So, looking forward, Justin, what's what's next for you in the pineapple agency? Justin Moss 58:39 Yeah, so um, you know, luckily, during this crazy madness, we're still working on we've got some great projects in the pipeline. Some have been postponed. I'm looking, I'm expanding the agency. I'm looking to potentially add one specific vertical of adding more fabrication in house and more digital marketing in house. So that, you know, we're already doing digital marketing for every campaign we do, but maybe potentially as a standalone strategy. And then we've got a very cool unique Music Festival. That Yes, if you remember from earlier I created many, many years ago, that is even more relevant today. I am a believer that this festival could potentially change festivals forever, or at least interaction with festivals from a consumer standpoint. So I my goal is to push that really forward this year, and then who knows the world The world is the world is an amazing place. And, you know, there you know I'm just living it. I'm just living is having some fun and creating some some cool shit, you know? And that's that's what we're here for. And that's what I'm going to continue doing. Marc Gutman 1:00:07 Yeah. So Justin, that going back and thinking back to that young, a nine year old Justin, what would he say if he saw you today where you're at what you're doing? Justin Moss 1:00:18 What would he say? He would? Wow this is this is a good one Mark? I would say I would say he would, he would say, Wow, you you really you really did something great for not just yourself but but humans. You You really, you really you really took your your your passion to the to the masses and the next level and applaud plod me my team, you know. And I think the other thing it says, Wow, you made it past 21 Marc Gutman 1:01:03 And that is Justin moss of the pineapple agency on a mission to bring people together and make them smile. Thanks, Justin. You certainly brought a smile to my face. And thanks for sharing your story. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstorm.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. Big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can't deny