Behind the Agency

Episode 58: How a 4-Person Shopify Agency Builds a Partner Engine That Actually Pays Off

David Hoos

Behind the Agency Podcast with Marcus Ohanesian, Founder & Head of Perfect Evolution

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Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• From band merch to Shopify specialist. Marcus started designing band websites for beer money and slowly evolved into running a 4-person Shopify-focused agency.

• Tight ICP = better work. Perfect Evolution now only works with Shopify merchants doing roughly $0–$2–5M online, usually DTC brands in food, beverage, apparel, or CPG.

• Three core levers. Their work lives in three buckets: theme/development, UX/UI design, and CRO—often “bolting onto” an existing marketing or ecommerce team.

• Most clients come in reactive. They show up after DIY themes, Fiverr/Upwork mishaps, or low conversion rates—and need a stable, strategic team to clean things up.

• Partnerships done right are a growth engine. Marcus built an Airtable-powered partner ecosystem (apps + agencies) and treats it as a real two-way relationship, not “you send me leads, I’ll send you leads.”

• Community > cold selling. He shows up consistently in Slack/Facebook communities, at small events, and in partner ecosystems so he’s “the Shopify/CRO guy” people think of first.

• Retainers as trust builders. Clients often start on small hour-based retainers, then expand once they see value and uncover more opportunities together.

• In-person still wins. Post-COVID, Marcus leans into meetups, happy hours, and partner events around big conferences—where real conversations and referrals actually happen.

Does This Sound Familiar?

You're four or five people. There's no sales team, no ad budget, and no content machine. You know partnerships are supposed to be the answer for a shop your size, and you also know your version is a handful of people you talk to occasionally.

So growth arrives when someone remembers you. Marcus Ohanesian decided to stop leaving that to memory.

Perfect Evolution is a 4-person Shopify agency working with DTC brands doing roughly $0 to $2.5M online. Marcus runs the partner ecosystem, apps and agencies both, out of an Airtable base and treats it as an actual channel with upkeep rather than a contact list.

And his way in with a new client is smaller than most agencies are comfortable with. Small hourly retainers, often 10 to 40 hours a month, so the client can buy trust in a size that doesn't need a committee. The work expands once they've seen it.

Now, the tactic I'd steal is the cheapest one on the list. Marcus sometimes flies to the city hosting a big conference and skips the conference, going only to the meetups and happy hours, because that's where people actually talk.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Marcus Ohanesian is the Founder and Head of Perfect Evolution, a boutique Shopify agency focused on helping DTC brands grow revenue through development, UX/UI, and CRO.

He and his small team work with early-stage to mid-sized ecommerce brands (roughly $0–$2–5M in online revenue) to stabilize their Shopify stores, improve conversion, and become a true extension of the brand’s marketing or ecommerce team.

Before running Perfect Evolution full time, Marcus spent years in the ecommerce agency world and worked as a partnerships manager, building relationships with Shopify and leading app partners like subscription and upsell tools. That experience heavily shapes how he runs his current agency and its partner ecosystem.

Episode Summary

1. From band websites to a focused Shopify agency

Marcus fell into the industry the way a lot of us do: by accident. In high school and college, he was a drummer in bands and started building logos, stickers, and simple HTML sites for his own band and friends’ bands. That turned into $50 “beer money” websites for local businesses, then a freelance practice while he studied graphic design in Lowell, MA. Over time, he graduated from Angelfire/Geocities and hand-coded HTML into WordPress, then eventually into the Shopify ecosystem, where Perfect Evolution lives today.

2. The main tension for Shopify merchants

Most of the brands he works with got online by being scrappy: buy a theme, hack it together, maybe hire a cheap freelancer. It works… until it doesn’t.

They run into:

• Broken or brittle themes

• Messy integrations with ERPs/OMS/shipping

• Low conversion rates despite traffic

• Tech debt from multiple “Frankenstein” fixes

By the time they reach out, they’re usually reactive, something is broken, a launch is stuck, or growth has stalled because the store simply won’t support the next stage.

“Everyone’s just trying to get a theme up and running with little to no money. Then they hit roadblocks and realize they need experts.”

3. Perfect Evolution’s way of solving it

Perfect Evolution stays intentionally small (a team of four) and works best as an extension of an existing team, not a giant one-stop shop.

They focus on:

• Development – theme customization, third-party integrations, custom landing pages

• UX/UI design – making the store easier, clearer, and more trustworthy to shop

• CRO – finding opportunities to lift conversion and revenue from existing traffic

They also bring in partner agencies for PPC, email, brand/identity, and other services, so clients get a coordinated ecosystem instead of a random pile of vendors.

4. A simple but powerful framework: retainers, builds, and starter packages

Marcus doesn’t overcomplicate the offer:

• Flexible Shopify retainers

  • Prepaid blocks of hours (often 30–40/month)

  • Can be used across dev, design, CRO, and strategy

  • Managed on 30-day cycles with a PM monitoring budget and progress

• Full builds & rethemes

  • Handled as more custom, project-based engagements given their complexity

• Starter packages

  • For true beginners who just need to get live on Shopify with no bells and whistles

Often, clients start small (e.g., 10 hours/month) to build trust, then scale into larger retainers as they see the value and uncover more opportunities together.

5. The “cringe” way most people do partnerships

Marcus has seen the typical bad pattern from both sides: two companies hop on a call, decide to “send each other leads,” maybe even sign a partner agreement… and then nothing happens.

No one knows each other’s goals, ICP, or strengths. No one takes the first step. Months go by, and the “partnership” dies quietly.

His fix is simple but demanding:
Treat partnerships as real relationships with a clear bias toward giving, not just taking.

“It can’t be take, take, take. It has to be give-take, give-take. If you help us, we’re going to help you.”

He looks for partners who are willing to put in the work, co-marketing, mutual referrals, joint events, and who genuinely care about serving the merchant well.

6. Marcus owns the relationships, the team owns the work

Marcus is still very much the face of the agency:

• He builds and maintains the partner ecosystem.

• He shows up in communities as “the Shopify/CRO guy.”

• He joins sales calls and high-level strategy conversations.

But he’s not the one doing every task. The team delivers the work while Marcus focuses his founder energy on relationships, positioning, and making sure Perfect Evolution is known and trusted in the ecosystem.

7. Specialize on a platform, then systematize the partnerships

A few big lessons for agency leaders show up in his story:

• Specialize on a platform and segment. Going all-in on Shopify and $0–$5M DTC brands gives their team focus and makes partnerships much easier.

• Systematize partnerships. Marcus built an Airtable “Rolodex” of app and agency partners with pricing and strengths, so he can make thoughtful referrals instead of relying on memory.

• Choose events strategically. Expensive mega-conferences often aren’t as valuable as smaller meetups, happy hours, and partner events where you can build real relationships.

• Use audits as a proactive opener. Perfect Evolution offers complimentary high-level Shopify audits as a way to start with value, not just “hop on a call and figure it out.”

Notable Quotes

“Every partnership starts at zero. What matters is who’s willing to actually put in the work.”

“If you help the merchant, and you help your partners, the revenue and referrals follow.”

“A lot of merchants exhaust every DIY option first. We show up when they’re ready to build something sustainable.”

“Sometimes I’ll go to the city where the conference is… and only attend the happy hours and meetups. That’s where the real conversations happen.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 5: Portfolios Beat Resumes

• Ep. 50: Building Software With Clients, Not For Them

• Ep. 49: Weekly Client Calls, Referral Networks, and 15 Years of Retention

Learn More / Get in Touch

Visit → https://perfectevolution.com
LinkedIn → https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcusohanesian/

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Episode 57: 25 Years of Agency Survival (What Actually Kept the Lights On)

David Hoos

Interview: Building a Resilient Dev Agency Through Change, Clarity, and Relationships

Behind the Agency Podcast with Rishi Khanna, CEO of ISHIR

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Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Longevity in agency life isn’t about chasing trends, it’s about staying relentlessly adaptable.

• ISHIR has survived the dot-com bust, 9/11, the 2008 financial crisis, and COVID by embracing change early.

• “Relentless clarity” is their core philosophy—for clients and employees.

• Their Innovation Acceleration process de-risks projects before a single line of code is written.

• Referrals work best when they’re fueled by real relationships, not transactional partnerships.

• AI is breaking time-based pricing—and forcing agencies to rethink value and outcomes.

• Custom software is making a comeback as companies try to protect their “secret sauce.”

• Culture, alumni relationships, and in-person connection are still unfair advantages in a remote world.

Does This Sound Familiar?

You price by the hour, or by the day, and it worked for a long time. Now a job that used to take forty hours takes ten, because your team uses the same tools everyone else does. You did the work faster and you got paid less for doing it.

So getting better at your craft shrinks the invoice. And the client has read the same articles you have, so they already suspect the estimate has air in it.

Rishi Khanna has run ISHIR for 25 years and has been in this spot four times. The dot-com bust, September 11th, the 2008 crash and COVID all landed on a services business that bills for people's time. ISHIR is still open, and Rishi is clear that it survived by moving early rather than by guessing right.

His fix sits upstream of pricing. A process he calls Innovation Acceleration de-risks a project before anyone writes code, and a standard he calls relentless clarity forces agreement on the actual problem first, with clients and with his own team.

That's the part worth stealing. The pricing model will change again. Being the firm that reliably solves the right problem outlasts whichever model is current.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Rishi Khanna is the CEO of ISHIR, a global development agency that helps startups, mid-market companies, and enterprises design and build custom software products. Over the past 25 years, Rishi has led ISHIR through multiple economic and technology cycles by staying focused on customer outcomes, resilient team culture, and constant innovation.

Before ISHIR, Rishi entered the agency world during the dot-com boom, learning early that survival depends less on tools and more on mindset.

Episode Summary1. Starting in the Dot-Com Boom—and Surviving the Bust

ISHIR was founded in 1999, right in the middle of the dot-com gold rush. Early clients were dot-com startups building web products and portals. When the bust hit (followed closely by 9/11), many agencies collapsed.

Rishi leaned into global talent early—building a remote team in India to solve talent shortages and stay flexible when the market shifted.

2. The Real Challenge: Constant Change

From web → mobile → cloud → AI, the tech stack never stops moving. Most agencies struggle because they over-optimize for what’s hot now instead of preparing for what’s next.

“What kept us going all these years has been our relentless focus on being resilient and adaptable to change.”

3. Solving the Right Problem (Not Just the Requested One)

Rishi is blunt about a common agency failure: building exactly what the client asks for—even when it’s the wrong solution.

“A lot of providers will just build what you tell them. We ask: why do you need this at all?”

This mindset led to ISHIR’s Innovation Acceleration approach—designed to slow things down before speeding execution up.

4. The Innovation Acceleration Framework

This process blends three core methodologies:

• Design Thinking – to deeply understand the problem

• Lean Product Development – to test and validate early

• Agile – to iterate fast once clarity exists

The goal: product-market fit, risk reduction, and a roadmap everyone believes in.

Importantly, this isn’t a one-time workshop. ISHIR revisits it regularly as markets, data, and customer needs evolve.

5. Relentless Clarity, for Employees Too

Most agencies talk about clarity for clients. ISHIR applies the same idea internally.

Rishi believes every employee has:

• Unique strengths

• Personal goals

• Career aspirations

By getting clear on those, ISHIR builds better retention, stronger culture, and teams that care about outcomes—not just tasks.

6. Why Their Referral Engine Actually Works

Rishi breaks referrals into four real sources:

1. Happy customers

2. Customers who change companies and bring ISHIR with them

3. Employees and alumni

4. Adjacent partners (PE firms, MSPs, VCs, accountants)

The common thread? Long-term relationships, regular check-ins, and in-person connection whenever possible.

No gimmicks. No “referral programs.” Just staying human and top-of-mind.

7. Rethinking Pricing in an AI World

Time-and-material pricing is cracking.

AI allows teams to deliver more value in less time—and customers don’t want to pay more just because you used fewer hours.

ISHIR is experimenting with:

• Outcome-based pricing

• Shared upside models

• IP ownership variations

There’s no perfect model yet, but Rishi is clear the old one won’t survive.

8. Why Custom Software Is Making a Comeback

As SaaS costs rise and differentiation disappears, companies are rebuilding internal tools and proprietary systems.

AI lowers development costs, making custom solutions viable again.

“If everyone uses the same SaaS, no one is differentiated.”

That shift plays directly into ISHIR’s strengths.

Notable Quotes

“Relentless clarity is making sure we’re solving the right problem before we build anything.”

“Referrals only work if relationships come first.”

“Time-based pricing breaks when AI changes how long things take.”

“Your secret sauce shouldn’t live inside someone else’s SaaS.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 42: How to Run an Agency for 20 Years Without Blowing It Up

• Ep. 34: How Fan Emails and Case Studies Built a 25-Year Agency

• Ep. 39: How to Stay Relevant When Your Tech Stack Gets Commoditized

Learn More / Get in Touch

Visit → https://ishir.com

Email → [email protected]

LinkedIn → Rishi Khanna

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Episode 56: Stop Selling Services and Start Solving Million-Dollar Problems

David Hoos

Behind the Agency Podcast with Michael LaVista, Founder & CEO of Caxy

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Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Most agencies lead with their capabilities. Michael learned to lead with the problem instead.

• Caxy pivoted from offering "apps" to solving million-dollar inefficiencies, and started landing bigger deals.

• The "bandwidth check-in" strategy with existing clients now drives 50%+ of growth.

• Measuring outcomes and mapping problems back to real dollars changed the nature of their sales process.

• Great customer experience is underrated, everything from invoices to delivery shapes loyalty.

• Hiring got easier once they embraced tools like Innermetrix to map roles to aptitudes.

• Mistakes like vague goals or junior hires owning AI innovation signal bigger mindset gaps.

Does This Sound Familiar?

Your deals sit between $50K and $150K, and they've sat there for years. The work is good and the clients are happy.

But you're still the vendor they call after the strategy got decided somewhere you weren't invited.

So every pitch turns into a comparison. Your rates against someone else's rates, your team against their team, your process against a deck. And nothing in that conversation is about what the problem is costing them.

Michael LaVista spent ten years selling services at Caxy and nobody cared. When he started leading with the problem instead, the default deal size went from $100K to $500K.

Caxy is 25 years old and has pivoted five or six times to get there. So this is a long arc, not a trick.

His best growth move costs nothing. It's a quarterly bandwidth check-in with clients he already has, where he asks whether they'd want his spare capacity or whether he should put it elsewhere.

That one question closes at 80 to 100%, and it now drives more than half of Caxy's new business.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Michael LaVista is the Founder & CEO of Caxy, a software and AI consultancy that helps companies eliminate back office bottlenecks through smarter systems. What started as a side hustle making CD-ROMs evolved into a nimble, outcome-focused partner for growth-minded clients.

Episode Summary

1. From Musician to Founder

Michael's journey into tech wasn’t planned. He left a music career and stumbled into entrepreneurship with high school friends. After many pivots (and some CD-ROMs), Caxy became what it is today.

2. Why Services Sell Poorly (and Outcomes Sell Big)

"I spent 10 years offering services, and no one cared. When I started solving $10M problems, things changed."

Agencies often sell what they do (apps, branding, marketing). Caxy shifted to selling what clients want: outcomes. The "we help Fred copy/paste less" pitch was replaced with solving operational blockages worth millions.

3. The Simple Conversation That Drives Growth

Michael’s go-to move? Quarterly check-ins with existing clients:

"Hey, we're growing. If I had 1-3 people worth of bandwidth available, would you want them or should I put them elsewhere?"

It almost always surfaces new work.

4. Their Sales Framework

• Get the numbers: Where are they today? Revenue, margins, blockers?

• Define the vision: Where do they want to go in 3 years?

• Identify the gap: What’s stopping that growth?

• Dig into the impact: What happens if it isn’t fixed?

• Then (and only then): Propose a solution.

5. Hiring Hacks

After years of instinctual hiring, Caxy now maps team fit using Innermetrix assessments. They know what patterns work best for PMs, developers, and leads—and use skill tests to validate fit.

6. Lessons from Growth Tactics That Flopped

• Early AI offers flopped because they sold the tech, not the value.

• Cold email, swag mailers, and ads all failed when the message missed.

• The big unlock? Realizing, "Nobody cares about us. They care about their problem."

7. Mindset Myths Busted

"People think big companies only buy from big companies. But new tech levels the field. Smaller firms often do it better."

Michael also challenges the idea that interns should "do AI." His advice? Don’t put your most strategic opportunity in the least experienced hands.

Notable Quotes

"You don't need a sales team—you need client-facing strategists."

"When someone says no for the right reason, they come back."

"Our invoices didn’t reflect value. If I got them, I’d lose my mind."

"Agencies are in the hospitality business. Clients remember the experience."

Related Episodes

• Ep. 12: Strategy Is the Only Thing That Cannot Be Commoditized

• Ep. 2: You Cannot Sell Consulting and Implementation at the Same Time

• Ep. 16: Your Agency Is Not Bad at Marketing. It Is Underfunding Growth.

Learn More / Get in Touch

Visit → https://caxy.com
Email → [Reach out via site]
LinkedIn → https://linkedin.com/in/michaellavista

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Episode 55: Why Your Agency Is Great at Marketing (Everyone but Yourself)

David Hoos

Interview: How Agencies Build an Intentional Growth Engine (Without the FOMO Trap)

Behind the Agency Podcast with Kate Hamilton, Fractional CMO for Agencies (former agency marketing leader)

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Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Core pain: agencies drift into silos + scattered tactics… and it shows up as messy work and frustrated clients.

• Root cause: teams get built in “departments” with separate KPIs, and nobody owns the “walk between teams” job.

• Fix #1:shared KPIs/OKRs, but translated so each team knows what they own and how it ladders up.

• Fix #2: stop worshipping vanity metrics (traffic, list size). If it doesn’t bring the right buyers, it’s noise.

• Big insight: strategy isn’t some fancy deck. It’s a source of truth that makes daily decisions easier and your data interpretable.

• Practical approach: use a test-and-learn sprint cadence (fast like a startup, but not chaos).

• Growth engine rule: don’t wait until referrals slow down. Keep 1–2 evergreen tactics running in the background.

• Anti-FOMO: “Be everywhere” is what people say right before they burn out. Pick channels based on where your audience actually is.

Does This Sound Familiar?

You run disciplined marketing for clients. Goals, KPIs, a reporting rhythm, someone accountable. Then you look at your own agency and find a half-finished podcast, a newsletter nobody owns, and a LinkedIn habit that tracks how busy you are.

Nobody's job description includes the walk between your own teams. So the departments each hit their own numbers while the agency drifts, and the drift shows up as messy work and clients who can tell.

Kate Hamilton has run marketing inside agencies rather than advising from outside, and she sees the same root cause every time. Teams get built as departments with separate scoreboards, and nobody owns the work between them.

So her fix is a scoreboard change. Shared goals, translated per team, so each one knows what it owns and how it ladders up.

And she's blunt about the metrics that make this worse. Traffic and list size feel like progress. If they aren't bringing the right buyers, they're noise that keeps everyone busy.

Her practical rule is the one to steal. Don't start marketing when referrals slow down. Keep 1 or 2 evergreen things running in the background all the time, picked by where your buyers actually are rather than by what everyone else is doing this year.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Kate Hamilton is a Fractional CMO for agencies. She’s led marketing inside multiple agencies and now helps agency leadership teams build aligned, intentional marketing + sales systems that don’t collapse into siloed departments and random acts of marketing.

Her sweet spot: helping agencies move from referral-reliant growth to a repeatable growth engine—without pretending they have a 20-person marketing department.

(Before fractional work, Kate held marketing leadership roles inside agencies and has built sales + marketing functions from scratch.)

Episode Summary

1. How silos quietly form (and why it’s usually not malicious)

Kate’s take is simple: silos often show up as the org grows and adds specialized teams—SEO, content, dev, etc. Each team gets their own KPIs, and over time the incentives drift apart.

The missing piece is often generalists who can translate across teams—the people who keep everyone rowing the same direction.

2. The hidden cost: clients feel it, and delivery gets bloated

Internal tension doesn’t stay internal. Kate points out it often becomes client frustration and project management overhead (“why does it take so many meetings to do anything?”).

“It’s not malicious… it just kind of naturally evolves. And if you don’t recognize it, you can’t get ahead of it.”

3. Shared KPIs help—but only if you ladder them properly

Shared metrics can reduce turf wars, but the key is translation:

• Team-wide goal (OKR/KPI)

• Department-level metrics that clearly contribute to it

  Otherwise teams stay stuck in their own bubbles (SEO does “SEO stuff,” social does “social stuff,” and nobody can explain impact).

4. Why people skip strategy and jump straight to tactics

Kate’s argument: skipping strategy usually comes from:

• fear / reticence to commit (strategy forces choices)

• not understanding what strategy actually does

Without strategy, teams become reactionary: chasing competitor moves, copying tactics, and running themselves ragged. With strategy—even a simple one—every tactic has a home, and performance data becomes easier to interpret.

5. Vanity metrics: the “junk food” of marketing

This part was fire because it’s so common. Traffic goes up, everyone celebrates… but leads don’t.

Kate calls out how metrics like traffic, bloated email lists, and “we shipped content” can hide the real question: are we attracting and converting the right buyers?

A quick gut-check she mentioned that I love: you want unengaged subscribers to unsubscribe because they muddy the signal.

6. The bridge between scrappy speed and real strategy: sprint thinking

One of the best practical takeaways: you don’t have to choose between “slow planning” and “chaos execution.”

Kate recommends a test-and-learn sprint mentality:

• pick one goal

• run a focused campaign

• review results quickly

• double down or pivot

It’s basically A/B testing…but applied to your whole marketing system, not just paid ads.

7. Building an intentional agency growth engine (especially when referrals are strong)

Kate’s warning: referrals make agencies lazy (her word was basically: you “throw everything else out”). Then referrals slow, and you’re starting from zero when you can least afford it.

Her prescription:

• Keep 1–2 evergreen tactics running even when things are good

• Cover the journey by choosing one small tactic per stage (awareness, nurture, conversion), based on your team size

This is how you build coverage without creating a monster program you can’t maintain.

8. FOMO channels and “make us like Nike” thinking

Kate gave a great example from her recruitment marketing days: clients demanded Snapchat… but their audience wasn’t there.

Same with brands copying Nike’s website or brand moves without understanding the goal behind them. The better move is to reverse engineer the intent and adapt it to your reality.

She also dropped a line I agree with hard:

• funnels aren’t really funnels

• it’s more like people wandering through a forest

So stop planning like buyers move in a straight line.

Notable Quotes

“Without a strategy, you start chasing your tail.”

“One piece of content isn’t the golden arrow. It’s an ecosystem.”

“If you’re running a business, pick one to two evergreen tactics and keep them running in the background.”

“Minimize ‘you.’ It’s all about them.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 3: The Best Messaging Is the Words of the Customer

• Ep. 16: Your Agency Is Not Bad at Marketing. It Is Underfunding Growth.

• Ep. 44: Sequencing Your Way Past the $2M Referral Ceiling

Learn More / Get in Touch

Visit → katehamilton.com

LinkedIn → Kate M. Hamilton

Want More Interviews Like This?

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Pick the path that fits where you are right now. No pitch deck. No pressure. Just clarity.

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Episode 54: How a Dev Agency Built Demand Through Content and Community

David Hoos

Headway’s “Be Helpful” Growth Engine: Content, Community, and a Smart Industry Spin-Off (Intermode)

Behind the Agency Podcast with Jacob Miller, Marketing & Brand Manager at Headway

Watch

Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Headway started as 4 freelancers who were tired of how most companies “do design + dev,” so they built a better process and banded together.

• Their “growth channel” wasn’t a channel. They built community (Digital Fertilizer → Startup Wisconsin) because they wanted it to exist—not to farm leads.

• They tried the usual positioning moves (B2B SaaS, Series A+, “we do UX audits only,” etc.) and found the hard truth: copy/paste positioning doesn’t copy/paste results.

• Headway eventually embraced being a strong-process generalist, but created a focused spin-off (Intermode) to win with industry clarity.

• Intermode picked logistics/supply chain because ~30–35% of Headway’s past work was already there—and it included their biggest + happiest clients.

• Content that wins = real problems from real projects, not “what keywords should we target?” They turned team experience into articles, videos, templates, and downloads.

• Long, high-depth YouTube content worked (40–90 min presentations + Q&A). They had Fortune 500 folks watch for years before finally reaching out.

• Referrals work better when you make it easy to “place you.” “Logistics software team” is an instant mental hook; “dev agency” is a fog.

• Their referral program is paid (percentage of contract for a limited term). They see it as “marketing cost, but more fair.”

Does This Sound Familiar?

The work arrives through referrals and word of mouth, and marketing is the thing you'll get to someday. You've tried copying what a successful agency in your space does, and it didn't take, which you've quietly filed as a failure of execution.

Jacob Miller's line on that is short. If copycatting worked, everybody would be rich.

Headway tried the standard positioning moves. B2B SaaS, Series A and up, narrow audit offers. None of it stuck.

So instead of forcing the main agency into a niche, they looked at what was already there. About 30 to 35% of past work was logistics, including their biggest clients. They spun up a separate brand for it and left Headway as a strong-process generalist.

That split is the useful move, and referral mechanics are the reason. A logistics software team is something a person can place instantly when the subject comes up. A dev agency is not.

Now, their content is worth a look because it breaks the rules. Long YouTube talks, 40 to 90 minutes with Q&A, built from real project problems rather than keyword research. People at Fortune 500 firms watched for years before they ever got in touch.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Jacob Miller is the Marketing and Brand Manager at Headway, a dev agency that helps teams design and build software with a strong, repeatable process. Jacob came in with a background in video production, photography, audio, and writing, and helped Headway build a content engine that now drives significant inbound traffic and long-cycle trust.

Headway also launched a focused subsidiary, Intermode, aimed at logistics and supply chain companies that need better software outcomes.

(Before Headway, Jacob’s background was hands-on media + writing, which shaped how Headway’s content became “teach-first,” not “sell-first.”)

Episode Summary

1. From freelancers to agency (and why Headway exists)

Headway started in 2015 with four partners who were originally working as contractors/freelancers. They kept getting pulled onto the same projects and got fed up with how messy and ineffective the usual design/dev process was—so they built their own approach and turned it into a company.

Jacob joined in 2017 and has been there nearly 8 years (with Headway approaching its 10-year anniversary).

2. The main tension: agencies want “a niche” but reality is messy

They went through the same identity struggle most agencies do: “We should niche down,” “We should productize a service,” “We should target Series A+,” etc.

But Jacob’s take was refreshingly honest: trying what worked for someone else doesn’t mean it’ll work for you.

“Just because someone else does it and we try it doesn’t mean it’ll work for us… if copycatting worked, everybody would be rich.”

3. Their unique way of solving it: be a generalist with a serious process

Headway landed on something a lot of agencies are scared to admit out loud:

They’re okay being a generalistbecause their process is the product.

The catch: it’s hard to communicate that clearly in marketing. “We can help anyone if they’ll follow our process” doesn’t always “click” fast.

4. The big move: spin off an industry-focused brand (Intermode)

Instead of forcing Headway to be narrowly positioned, they created Intermode as a separate industry brand focused on logistics and supply chain.

Why that industry?

• 30–35% of Headway’s past work was already in that space

• It included their biggest projects

• The clients were their happiest and actually followed the process

• They did industry interviews to confirm the need and buying behavior

The result: sales conversations got easier because people could finally place them.

5. The simple positioning lesson most people miss

This part hit hard:

When you say: “Do you know anyone who needs dev/design?” people blank.

When you say: “Do you know anyone in logistics/supply chain building software?” people suddenly think of 3 names.

It’s the “Cheesecake Factory menu” problem. Too many options = no decision.

6. Content philosophy: stop chasing keywords first

Jacob didn’t start with SEO tools asking, “What do we rank for?”

He started with: What problems are we solving on real client work?

Then they made content from that:

• deep videos (presentations + Q&A)

• articles

• templates and downloads (UX audit templates, design system assets, etc.)

Afterwards, he’d apply SEO best practices without ruining the usefulness.

Over time, it stacked into a real inbound engine:

• 500+ pages

• 100k+ website visitors (driven by the content library)

7. YouTube: the “wrong audience” myth (and why it’s outdated)

Jacob gave a great counter to the common agency belief:

“Our buyers aren’t on YouTube / TikTok.”

Reality: people watch YouTube on their TVs now. Decision-makers learn there too.

They had Fortune 500 people watching their content for 2–3 years before submitting a form.

That’s not a “lead gen hack.” That’s compounding trust.

8. Referral program: casual today, formal tomorrow

They currently run a casual referral partner setup:

• They offer a percentage of the contract

• There are term limits

• They want to build a dashboard where partners can submit + track referrals

They see it as a fair trade:

“If a referral becomes a $100k contract, a mug is insulting. Pay people.”

Also: they’re careful about not treating it like cold outbound.

If you don’t have a real relationship, leading with “here’s my referral commission” feels gross.

9. Where Headway is headed (BHAGs + reality checks)

Jacob described Headway’s “big circles” vision:

• Education (courses, possibly more later)

• Talent (training strategic designers/devs; potentially placing talent with clients)

• Community / philanthropy (Startup Wisconsin)

Key maturity move: they’re getting more sober about capacity.

Lots of ideas ≠ ability to execute them all at once.

Notable Quotes

“If copycatting worked, everybody would be rich.”

“We genuinely care about building a community… it’s not about ROI and leads.”

“YouTube works for you if you’re putting out stuff that’s actually valuable.”

“The more specific we get, the better.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 15: Your Best Thinking Is Invisible If You Never Hit Publish

• Ep. 14: Specializing Is Scary. Not Specializing Is Worse.

• Ep. 61: Win Better Clients by Going Narrow

Learn More / Get in Touch

Headway:headway.io

Headway Partner Network:headway.io/partner-network

Linkedin:Jacob Miller

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Episode 53: How a WordPress Agency Wins Enterprise Publishers Without Enterprise Headcount

David Hoos

Interview: The 3E Framework for High-Scale Media Sites (and Why Conferences Still Beat Content Alone)

Behind the Agency Podcast with Meeky Hwang, CEO of Ndevr

Watch

Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Ndevrstarted because two technical operators realized they worked way better together than apart—and clients felt it.

• They tried being broad (Drupal, Laravel, React), but niching to WordPress made delivery more efficient and the marketing story way clearer.

• Their sweet spot isn’t “enterprise” by headcount—it’s enterprise by traffic + publishing complexity (millions of visitors, big editorial teams, heavy integrations).

• Their differentiator is the 3E Framework: Audience Experience + Creator Experience + Developer Experience (and how those trade off).

• “WordPress is just a blogging tool” is the misconception they fight—at this level it’s a full platform with serious architecture decisions.

• Conferences—especially when speaking—still outperform content alone for their ICP because trust and credibility matter in enterprise buying.

• Partnerships work best when they’re ecosystem-aligned (managed hosting, creative agencies, and “platform swap” referrals like Drupal ↔ WordPress).

• For partnerships, basic ops maturity is a hidden superpower: tools, clear owners, clear scope, and over-communication early.

Does This Sound Familiar?

You want to move upmarket and you've decided that means hiring ahead of it. A bigger team, a Fortune 500 logo hunt, and a pitch that tries to look like a much larger firm than you are.

Meeky Hwang went at it from the other end. Ndevr is about 10 years old, and it defines enterprise by traffic rather than by headcount. That means digital media publishers serving millions of visitors a month.

That's a real distinction, and it changes who you're up against. A publisher with that much traffic has problems a big generalist firm treats as routine, and a small specialist treats as the whole job.

So Ndevr narrowed to WordPress after trying to be broad across Drupal, Laravel and React. Delivery got leaner, and the story got easier to tell. That second part is the benefit nobody counts.

Now, their framework is what I'd take away. Three experiences have to work at once. The reader's, the writer's, and the developer's.

Naming the trade-offs between them is the consulting, and it's how a small team ends up sounding like the most serious people in the room.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Meeky Hwang is the CEO of Ndevr, a WordPress development agency focused on enterprise digital media publishers, the kind with complex publishing workflows, heavy integrations (ads, video, syndication), and traffic levels where performance directly impacts revenue.

She and her co-founder Matt built Ndevr after working together at the same agency and realizing their shared technical background helped them run projects faster, cleaner, and with fewer surprises.

Episode Summary

1. Two technical leaders, one “we should just do this ourselves” moment

Meeky’s story is the kind I hear a lot, but with a twist: this wasn’t “two salespeople start an agency.”

This was two builders.

They’d worked together before. Then later freelanced together. And the same thing kept happening: projects ran smoother because both of them could see the technical reality and the business impact.

So they started Ndevr, almost 10 years ago.

2. The big shift: from “we do a bunch of stuff” to “we’re WordPress”

At first they took on other platforms too (Drupal, Laravel, React apps).

But they made the call to narrow down to WordPress because it let them:

• run delivery more efficiently

• get more consistent reps

• be more strategic for a specific type of buyer

And honestly? The marketing gets so much easier when the buyer can instantly tell if they’re in the right place.

3. Their real niche: enterprise media publishing platforms

Meeky drew a clean line on what “enterprise” means for them:

It’s not employee size.

It’s visitor volume + publishing complexity.

They shine when:

• performance affects revenue (ad revenue is a big one)

• editorial teams are big (workflow matters)

• content volume is massive (video, images, integrations)

• the “site” is really a platform

4. The 3E Framework: where most agencies miss the real problem

This was the core “stealable” idea:

Audience Experience (site speed, usability, engagement)

Creator Experience (editorial workflow, publishing efficiency)

Developer Experience (code quality, maintainability, scalability)

Meeky’s point: these aren’t separate. They’re linked.

Bad dev practices create editorial bottlenecks, which eventually hurts the audience, which hurts revenue.

That’s the difference between “we build WordPress sites” and “we understand the publishing machine.”

5. Go-to-market: credibility beats cleverness (for this ICP)

Their early growth was very referral-driven—especially because people in media move companies and bring trusted vendors with them.

But their biggest standout channel?

Conferences, especially speaking.

Why it works:

• you get credibility before the sales convo

• you can meet people in person and hear the real problems

• enterprise buyers are risk-averse and have vetting systems (RFPs, referrals, prior relationships)

Content (blog posts, case studies, social) supports the story—but for their audience, in-person trust still closes the gap faster.

6. Offers: custom upfront, then “maintenance” that’s not really maintenance

For smaller clients, the model looks like:

• project → lighter maintenance retainer

For enterprise clients, the “retainer” often behaves like an ongoing project:

• constant rollouts

• complex integrations

• performance/security upgrades

• ongoing platform evolution

They also see a real mix in migrations:

• moving from other CMSs to WordPress

• “headless regret” (teams that went headless too early and later re-couple back to WordPress)

• hosting migrations to managed providers that can handle traffic + uptime needs

7. Partnerships: the unsexy checklist that makes them work

They partner in a few smart, ecosystem-y ways:

• Managed WordPress hosting partners (WordPress VIP, Pantheon, WP Engine, etc.)

• Creative agencies (since Ndevr focuses on tech, not creative)

• Cross-platform referral swaps (Drupal shops send WP work; Ndevr sends Drupal work out)

And when evaluating partnerships, Meeky called out a super practical filter:

• culture fit, yes

• but also: process maturity

  • do they have real project tracking (not chaos in email/spreadsheets)?

  • are owners/accountabilities clear?

  • is scope tight?

  • can both sides over-communicate early until rhythm is established?

It’s basic stuff… and that’s exactly why it matters. When it’s missing, everything turns into mush.

8. Looking ahead: grow healthy, build like they might sell (even if they don’t)

Meeky doesn’t sound like she’s trying to flip the company tomorrow.

But she is thinking like an owner who wants a durable business:

• stronger systems

• clearer roles

• less founder-dependence

• building the kind of company that could be sold—even if the real goal is just stability and healthy growth

Notable Quotes

“Our sweet spot is enterprise digital media publishers… complex publishing ecosystems serving millions of visitors.”

“All 3 pillars have to work together: audience experience, creator experience, and developer experience.”

“Conferences definitely help—especially when you speak.”

“Over-communicate in the beginning… until you learn each other’s style.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 51: How a Python Agency Turned Engineer Preferences Into a Market Position

• Ep. 48: Best Practices Isn't a Differentiator

• Ep. 61: Win Better Clients by Going Narrow

Learn More / Get in Touch

Visit → ndevr.io

LinkedIn → Meeky Hwang

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Episode 52: Founder-Led Sales Is a Growth Ceiling (Here's How to Escape It)

David Hoos

Interview: How agencies replace founder-led selling with an internal “sales + strategy” team that actually wins

Behind the Agency Podcast with Paul Wilson, Founder, Massive Growth Partners

Watch

Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

The written version of this argument, with the benchmark numbers and a comparison of the five kinds of help, is here: Founder-Led Sales Consulting for Agencies: What It Should Fix (and What It Can't).

• The hardest part of moving off founder-led sales isn’t skill… it’s trust.

• The most common “first salesperson” mistake: hire an outside seller who doesn’t understand delivery, then expect miracles.

• Paul’s best bet: promote practitioners into sales (PPC analysts, delivery leaders, account managers) and teach them business + presentation skills.

• Winning pitches are interactive: ask an open-ended question every couple minutes / every 2 slides instead of talking for 25 minutes straight.

• A strong model is “business lead + strategy lead” working as a tag team—without “salesy” job titles.

• Discovery is where deals are won or lost. Paul does 10–15 discovery questions, then builds the pitch around the client’s top 3 needs.

• CEOs shouldn’t disappear from sales. They should shift: show up for key moments, then spend time on hiring, thought leadership, and client relationships.

• Paul’s framework: “Winning every stage” of the process—from lead → discovery → pitch → SOW → close → handoff to delivery.

Does This Sound Familiar?

Every proposal, every pitch and every follow-up runs through you. You've tried to hand it over at least once, and it went badly enough that you took it back and haven't tried since.

So the business grows at exactly the rate your calendar allows. And it turns into a real liability somewhere past $3M to $5M, because a buyer looking at the company sees one person holding the revenue.

Paul Wilson has done this at a scale most agency owners haven't. He led sales at iProspect while the team went from 40 people to 750. Then he took RKG from $5M to $30M in three years, and Merkle bought it.

His read on why the handoff fails is not what you'd guess. It isn't sales skill. It's trust.

That's why hiring an outside seller who doesn't know delivery so rarely works. His better bet is to promote a practitioner, the PPC analyst or the delivery lead or the account manager, and teach them the business side.

And one habit will improve your own pitches this week. Ask an open-ended question every couple of minutes, or every two slides. Watching someone present for 25 minutes without asking anything is how a pitch gets lost.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Paul Wilson is the founder of Massive Growth Partners, where he consults with agency and software CEOs on revenue growth, go-to-market strategy, sales structure, and making the tough jump from founder-led sales to a team-driven approach.

Before consulting, Paul led teams at major digital marketing agencies. At iProspect, he was part of leadership through massive growth (from roughly 40 people / $4M to 750 people across 40 offices, including acquisition by Aegis Media). Later at RKG, he helped build a sales + strategy model that grew revenue from about $5M to $30M in 3 years, and the firm sold to Merkle. In the last 5 years, four of his consulting clients sold to private equity at above-average multiples.

Episode Summary

1. From broadcasting to scaling agencies

Paul started in broadcasting, moved into digital marketing, and then lived through the “scale machine” first-hand with iProspect, RKG, and Merkle. That’s where he learned what actually works when an agency has to grow past the founder.

2. The main tension: founder-led sales works… until it doesn’t

Founder-led sales is common for a reason: founders know the work best, they can sell the vision, and they can improvise.

But it becomes a trap:

• it bottlenecks growth

• it makes revenue feel fragile (“if I’m not selling, nothing happens”)

• it keeps the CEO stuck doing decks and pitches instead of building the company

“The most important thing is trust.”

That’s the real obstacle. Not “finding a salesperson.” Trusting someone else to represent the agency like you would.

3. Their unique way of solving it: move practitioners into sales

Paul’s contrarian stance (and I agree with him here) is:

Stop hiring “professional closers” first.

Start by hiring (or promoting) people who already understand delivery.

Because agencies aren’t selling widgets. They’re selling judgment and execution.

So Paul looks for internal people who are:

• strategic thinkers

• strong presenters

• team players (because agency selling is cross-functional)

Then he mentors them on business skills and presentation skills, while the CEO gradually steps back.

4. Winning every stage: lead, go/no-go, discovery, pitch, close

Paul’s “winning every stage” sales flow looks like this:

• Lead comes in (marketing, conference, webinar, outbound, etc.)

• Qualify + Go/No-Go (often using a scorecard: fit, relationship, need match, etc.)

• Discovery call (30 minutes, expectations set upfront)

  • 10–15 questions: what’s worked, what hasn’t, access to data, success definition, top criteria for choosing an agency

• Pitch build (customize around the client’s top 3 needs)

  • 3–5 concrete ideas to “move the needle”

  • relevant case studies for their vertical

• Pitch delivery (interactive, not a monologue)

• SOW review

• Close

• Handoff / onboarding to delivery

And structurally, he likes a two-person pitch team:

• a business lead (commercial side)

• a strategy lead (delivery-minded marketer/strategist)

No “salesy” titles required.

5. The 25-minute monologue, and a question every two slides

Two big cringe moments Paul called out:

A) The 25-minute monologue

• Presenter talks for 20–25 minutes without asking a question

• Then asks: “Any questions?”

• Prospect says: “Nope” (because they stopped paying attention 15 minutes ago)

His fix is super practical:

Ask an open-ended question every 2 slides.

Examples:

• “How does this compare to what you expected?”

• “What part of this feels most relevant to your situation?”

• “What are you worried won’t work here?”

It keeps the prospect engaged and gets “little yeses” along the way.

B) The wrong first sales hire

Hiring an outside salesperson who doesn’t understand the work, then expecting them to sell complex services.

That failure creates a scar, and the founder says:

“See? Doesn’t work. I’m the salesperson forever.”

Paul’s workaround if you must hire from outside:

• hire account managers from other agencies who have upsold and presented to clients

6. The CEO doesn’t vanish, the CEO changes jobs

Paul’s not saying “CEO vanishes.”

He’s saying “CEO changes jobs.”

Instead of being the full-time seller, the CEO can:

• join key pitches (selectively)

• spend time with clients post-close (QBR strategy moments)

• recruit key hires

• do thought leadership

• keep the company ahead of the curve

That shift also impresses clients:

“Wow, we’re getting CEO attention after we signed.”

7. Promote a practitioner, then teach them the business side

If you want this transition to work, Paul’s implied checklist is basically:

• pick the right internal people (strategic + presentation ability)

• train them on business skills

• systematize discovery + pitch creation

• keep the pitch interactive

• let the founder step back gradually, not abruptly

Notable Quotes

“The most important thing is trust.”

“What makes me cringe is seeing the presenter go on for 20 minutes, 25 minutes without asking a question.”

“Ask an open-ended question every couple of minutes… every 2 slides.”

“I always loved it when the prospect said, ‘I’d love for the salesperson and strategist to work on my account.’”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 10: If You Market to Everybody, You Market to No One

• Ep. 41: Why Deal Flow Matters More Than Recurring Revenue

• Ep. 2: You Cannot Sell Consulting and Implementation at the Same Time

Learn More / Get in Touch

Visit → massivegrowthpartners.com

Email → [email protected]

Call → 781-608-8208

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Subscribe to the show on YouTube

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Episode 51: How a Python Agency Turned Engineer Preferences Into a Market Position

David Hoos

Behind the Agency Podcast with Ivy Hastings, CEO of Fusionbox

Watch

Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Fusionbox was born the hard way: Ivy and her husband came back from a vacation to find their startup shut down overnight.

• Early growth came from a simple move that still works: DIY SEO + link building, until the phone started ringing.

• Fusionbox “niched down” into Python/Django almost by accident—engineers wanted it, clients didn’t care, and it became a magnet for both talent and buyers.

• Their sales approach is unusual (and smart): engineers join sales calls so trust starts immediately.

• Ivy uses SPIN selling (Situation, Problem, Implication, Need) to keep sales human and high-trust.

• Client relations runs on a restaurant-style rule: Acknowledge, Apologize, Act (the “3 A’s”).

• Engagement model: time & materials + 2-week sprints so clients can “try before they commit.”

• “Small rescue fix” projects often turn into multi-year partnerships (one client is ~8 years in).

• Niche + senior-only team + stable relationships = happier clients, happier team, and better profitability.

Does This Sound Familiar?

You built a team of generalists because flexibility seemed like the selling point. Now your strongest engineers are bored, your pitch sounds like every other shop's, and the projects that pay best are the ones nobody on the team particularly wants.

Fusionbox has been running since 2002, and Ivy Hastings will tell you they tried the other way first. At one point they were 30 people doing everything. Narrowing to senior US-based Python and Django work improved both profitability and quality of life.

And the niche arrived sideways, which is worth hearing if you're waiting for a strategic reason.

Clients didn't care what the code was written in. The engineers wanted it, and that was enough.

So the sales model changed to match. Engineers join sales calls, so trust starts before anyone signs anything, and the close rate sits around 30%.

Work starts as time and materials in two-week sprints, which lets a client try you without committing to a project.

Now, the payoff shows up in tenure. A small rescue fix turned into an eight-year client, and one team member has been there 18 years.

That's what a narrow, senior shop buys you.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Ivy Hastings is the CEO of Fusionbox, a custom software agency founded in 2002 that specializes in senior, US-based Python/Django development, with UI/UX support as needed.

Fusionbox is known for:

• long-term client relationships (10+ years)

• long-tenured staff (18 years for one team member)

• “project rescue” work where clients lost a dev team or need to get something over the finish line

Episode Summary

1. The origin story: from a $30M startup to locked doors

Fusionbox started because Ivy and her husband got blindsided.

They were working at a startup during the first internet boom. Big funding. Big project. Everything looked fine.

They went to Mexico for four days.

They came back… and the office was literally shut down. Doors locked. No notice.

That kind of moment forces a decision: panic, or build something you control.

Her husband saw a market gap. Back then there was no Squarespace, no Wix, no WordPress… and not many shops doing custom design + dev.

So he started Fusionbox.

2. Early days: one big-name client, but still scary

Their first client was Intuit / QuickBooks.

Sounds amazing (and it is), but it didn’t immediately make things “safe.” Ivy described it as still not paying the bills.

She eventually quit a miserable corporate job (she was coming home crying) and joined the business full time.

Then came the painful part agency owners will recognize: sitting by the phone waiting for it to ring.

3. The growth lever that changed everything: SEO

Ivy didn’t sugarcoat it: she started learning SEO, did link building, and pushed their site.

And then it flipped.

They started ranking #1 for their keywords and got flooded with leads.

No fancy brand campaign. No “thought leadership strategy.” Just: get found when people are searching.

4. The niche happened “backwards” — and that’s what makes it interesting

Fusionbox didn’t niche down because Ivy did a market analysis and picked a category.

They niched down because their engineers basically said:

“We want to write Python.”

Ivy was nervous. She thought clients would be scared off.

But clients didn’t care what language the code was written in.

What did happen:

• passionate Python engineers created better work

• it attracted more Python enthusiasts (both clients and talent)

• it naturally turned into a clear differentiator

And since this was ~15 years ago, there were fewer competitors doing Python/Django, so they cornered that demand.

Misconception worth challenging:

A lot of agency folks think “niching” always has to mean picking an industry. Fusionbox proves you can niche by technical lane and still win — especially when it improves hiring and delivery quality.

5. Sales approach: engineers on the call

Fusionbox brings engineers into sales calls, even when the client isn’t technical.

Why? Because clients get to meet the people they’ll actually work with.

When an engineer asks sharp questions and starts problem-solving on the first call, the client feels like:

“Oh… they’re already helping me.”

That creates trust faster than the usual “discovery call → handoff → hope it goes well” model.

6. SPIN selling, and the three A’s when something goes wrong

A) SPIN selling (Ivy’s favorite)

• Situation: Why are we talking today?

• Problem: What’s broken / stuck / missing?

• Implication: What happens if this doesn’t get fixed? (often high stakes)

• Need: What do you actually need from a partner?

For Fusionbox, a lot of work is “project rescue” — which Ivy framed as a vulnerable situation for clients (lost a dev, can’t ship, software is at risk).

SPIN helps them make the client feel heard, not interrogated.

She mentioned a ~30% close rate when they get good-fit conversations.

B) The “3 A’s” for client issues (restaurant rule)

When something goes wrong:

1. Acknowledge

2. Apologize

3. Act

She said it diffuses conflict fast and actually builds trust.

7. Their engagement model: 2-week sprints as a “tryout”

Fusionbox moved away from rigid scopes and fixed bids because software changes as you learn.

So they use:

• time and materials

• 2-week sprint blocks

Clients can buy a sprint, see how it feels, and continue (or stop) without a big contract trap.

And here’s the punchline:

A “small fix” rescue job can turn into years of work. One example: a client came in for a quick finish-line push… now it’s 8 years and many sprints later.

It’s basically a relationship flywheel:

• solve a painful problem fast

• earn trust

• expand the work over time

8. What’s next: stay in the sweet spot

Ivy wasn’t chasing massive growth for the sake of it.

She said they used to be ~30 people doing “everything” and it was miserable: lower quality, unhappy team, unhappy leadership.

After niching down:

• profitability improved

• team happiness improved

• client happiness improved

So the plan is simple: keep great clients, keep delivering, keep people happy.

Notable Quotes

“We always include our engineers in sales calls.”

“Sales isn’t done when they hire us and send a check. It continues.”

“Acknowledge, apologize, act.”

“Clients didn’t care what we were writing in. It made our engineers happy.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 48: Best Practices Isn't a Differentiator

• Ep. 53: How a WordPress Agency Wins Enterprise Publishers Without Enterprise Headcount

• Ep. 61: Win Better Clients by Going Narrow

Learn More / Get in Touch

Email → [email protected]

LinkedIn → Ivy Hastings

Website → Fusionbox

Want More Interviews Like This?

Subscribe to the show on YouTube →

Subscribe to my weekly newsletter →

If this resonates, here's your next step.

Pick the path that fits where you are right now. No pitch deck. No pressure. Just clarity.

Start with the free Bottleneck Score →

See how the Program works →

Episode 50: Building Software With Clients, Not For Them

David Hoos

Interview: Why Growth in Dev Agencies Is a Relationship Game (Not a Numbers Game)

Behind the Agency Podcast with Steve Hennigan, Chief Growth Officer at 7 Hills Technology

Watch

Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Dev agency growth isn’t a numbers game—it’s a quality-of-conversations game.

• 7 Hills wins when clients want to collaborate, not just hand over a spec sheet.

• Whiteboarding, user story mapping, and strategy sessions are where the real value shows up.

• Productization is about clarity for buyers, not convenience for agencies.

• The biggest growth lever right now? In-person relationships and trust.

• AI and offshoring increase the value of what can’t be automated: strategy, UX, and product thinking.

• The best partnerships are specialist-driven, not generic “you send me leads, I send you leads.”

• Playing the long game beats chasing quick wins—especially in custom software.

Does This Sound Familiar?

You came up in sales somewhere that had a real pipeline. Volume in, conversion rate, forecast out. Then you brought that playbook to a custom software firm and the numbers stopped behaving.

So you add more activity, and the close rate gets worse rather than better. The deals that land keep coming from a conversation you couldn't have templated.

Steve Hennigan runs growth at 7 Hills Technology and says it plainly. This isn't a numbers game, it's a quality-of-conversations game. And he'll tell you exactly which conversations, because 7 Hills wins when the client wants to build something with them rather than hand over a spec.

That shows up in what they do early. Whiteboarding, user story mapping, strategy sessions. The work that decides whether a project is worth doing at all, which is also the work that's hardest to offshore or automate.

Now, his ideal client is specific enough to be useful to you. Companies of 100 to 150 people with a clear sense of who they are, because a client who knows their own identity can collaborate. And his view on partnerships is that the good ones are specialist-driven rather than a generic swap of leads.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Steve Hennigan is the Chief Growth Officer at 7 Hills Technology, a custom software development firm that helps organizations design and build software products collaboratively. With a background in tech sales and marketing, Steve now helps companies build better products by focusing on process, people, and long-term relationships.

Before joining 7 Hills full-time, Steve spent years in the Cincinnati tech scene, building relationships, mentoring teams, and staying close to how real software decisions get made.

Episode Summary1. From Tech Sales to Chief Growth Officer

Steve started in classic tech sales—where volume, funnels, and close rates rule everything. But when he moved into the custom software world, that mindset broke fast.

Custom software isn’t a repeatable SKU. Every deal is different. Every buyer is different. And trying to brute-force growth with volume just doesn’t work.

2. The Core Tension: Spec Sheets vs. Collaboration

Most agencies struggle because they accept the wrong kind of work.

Clients who just want to toss a spec over the fence? Bad fit.

Clients who want to think, explore, and build together? That’s the sweet spot.

“We really excel when we can roll our sleeves up in a whiteboard session and build the product alongside the client.”

3. The 7 Hills Approach: Build the Plan Together

Instead of expecting clients to show up with everything figured out, 7 Hills encourages the opposite.

They love:

• Blank canvases

• Half-formed ideas

• Big questions

Through user story mapping and collaborative sessions, they help uncover what actually matters—before a single line of code is written.

That’s where the “aha” moments happen.

4. Productization Without Killing Creativity

Steve was refreshingly honest here: productization is hard.

The goal isn’t to turn custom software into a rigid box. The goal is to give buyers something they can understand and enter through.

Think of it like this:

• Guardrails, not handcuffs

• Structure, not sameness

Design sprints and strategy sessions become a clear starting point—not the entire journey.

5. The Big Mistake: Treating Agency Growth Like SaaS

This was one of the strongest moments of the conversation.

Steve admitted he tried to run agency growth like SaaS sales early on—and it didn’t work.

In SaaS:

• Volume wins

• Price is the main objection

• Speed matters

In agencies:

• Trust wins

• Fit matters more than price

• Time is unavoidable

Trying to shortcut relationships just backfires.

6. Why In-Person Still Wins (Especially Now)

AI is everywhere. Content is everywhere. Noise is everywhere.

Which makes real human connection more valuable, not less.

Meetups, conferences, whiteboard sessions, lunches—these aren’t “nice to have.” They’re strategic.

“There’s always a moment where the light bulb goes off—and it only happens because we’re in the room together.”

7. Long-Term Growth, Not Hypergrowth

Steve isn’t chasing a 500-person agency.

The goal is something closer to 100–150 people, built on:

• A clear brand identity

• Strong case studies that attract similar work

• Flexibility to adapt as AI and offshoring shift the market

Growth, yes—but on purpose.

Notable Quotes

“It’s not a numbers game. It’s a quality-of-conversations game.”

“We love a blank canvas and a good idea.”

“People collaborate with people.”

“If you’re in this industry, you have to play the long game.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 47: Why Most Software Projects Fail Before a Single Line of Code

• Ep. 37: Why Clients Rejected the Self-Serve Model and Paid More for a Human

• Ep. 20: Why This Agency Ditched the Big Reveal and Lets Clients Co-Create Instead

Learn More / Get in Touch

Visit → https://www.sevenhillstechnology.com

Email → [email protected]

LinkedIn → https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevehennigan

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Episode 49: Weekly Client Calls, Referral Networks, and 15 Years of Retention

David Hoos

Interview: How Oyova Built Durability Through Transparency, Weekly Touchpoints, and Smart Partnerships

Behind the Agency Podcast with Jon Tsourakis, President / CRO / Co-Founder of Oyova

Watch

Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Starting an agency in 2009 was basically “do anything that pays” — including stuff you never sold.

• Oyova kept one core thing constant: white-glove service with more human involvement (not less).

• Weekly client touchpoints can cost more, but it’s how you keep clients for 15 years.

• Their vertical “focus” wasn’t a fancy strategy. It came from where they already had wins + stories.

• Jon avoids the word “packages.” They sell a tailored plan, built from real discovery.

• They show pricing as line items + time + rate so clients understand what they’re buying.

• The “plan” is separate from execution, and they’ll only do it if the client intends to move forward.

• Partnerships work when you’re honest about expectations, and you play upline + downline strategically.

• Smaller, niche events often outperform big conferences because of less competition + more intimacy.

• On AI and consolidation: it’s cyclical. Good agencies adapt and keep doing great work.

Does This Sound Familiar?

You deliver the project, it goes well, and then the relationship quietly thins out. Six months later a competitor is doing the next phase.

Nobody was unhappy. You just stopped being in the room.

So you assume the fix is better service, and you're half right.

Jon Tsourakis has been running Oyova since 2009 and has clients who've stayed 15 years. His answer is more human contact rather than less, which costs more, and that's exactly the point.

Weekly touchpoints are the habit underneath it. While most agencies automate reporting away, Oyova puts more people into it, because the check-in is the thing keeping you in the conversations where next year's work gets decided.

He's also careful with language in a way that's worth copying. Oyova doesn't sell packages or programs. It sells a plan, built from real discovery and priced as line items with time and rate showing, so a client can see what they're buying.

The plan is a separate paid step, and he'll only do it if they intend to move forward.

And his partner model is refreshingly plain. Everyone pays a 10% referral fee, both directions, which removes the awkwardness. He doesn't want a hundred partners either.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Jon Tsourakis is President, CRO, and Co-Founder of Oyova, a firm that spans custom software, marketing, and IT consulting. He’s been in the trenches since 2009, and this episode is loaded with the kind of “battle-scar” lessons that only show up after a decade-plus of running a real agency.

Episode Summary1. Starting in 2009: “Whatever it took”

Jon didn’t start Oyova with a master plan. He started it because he quit a corporate mess and needed to survive.

And recession-era survival mode meant saying “yes” to almost anything:

“You’re somebody who’s like, ‘Hey, we do email marketing.’ They hear email, so you’re under their desk trying to figure out why their email server isn’t connecting…”

That’s a super honest snapshot of early agency life: your positioning is “please hire me.”

2. The thing that never changed: white-glove service (with more humans, not more automation)

As Oyova evolved (including a merger in 2019 that formed the company as it is today), Jon said one thing stayed consistent:

They leaned into white-glove service.

And here’s the contrarian part: a lot of agencies automate reporting and reduce touchpoints. Oyova did the opposite.

• Instead of meeting monthly, meet weekly.

• Add human input instead of hiding behind dashboards.

It costs more, but the tradeoff is collaboration + trust + retention.

Jon said they’ve kept clients for 15 years because of that.

3. Vertical focus: not a formula, a pattern

Oyova works across verticals like logistics, home services, legal, and e-commerce.

And Jon basically said: we didn’t “pick” them in a workshop.

They looked back and noticed:

• they had strong results there

• they had real stories to tell

• the team actually liked the work (legal included, somehow)

So the focus emerged from evidence, not vibes.

This is one of those things people mess up: they try to “choose a niche” like they’re picking a Spotify genre. Jon’s version is more like: follow the proof.

4. Offers: “Don’t call it a package. Call it a plan.”

Jon is allergic to the word “package” because their approach is tailored.

Their sales motion looks like:

1. lead comes in

2. someone qualifies it

3. experts get on the call to understand what’s really going on

4. they propose a strategy plan as a separate paid step

5. the plan reveals execution work and expected return

What’s different is how transparent he is:

They line item the plan:

• buckets of work

• time estimate

• hourly rate

And then they build a plan that explains the “how,” the cost, and the expected return.

5. Paying for planning: the architect analogy (and a hard boundary)

You asked about pushback on paying for planning. Jon’s answer was basically:

If you’re transparent and genuine, smart clients get it.

He used the architect analogy:

You pay an architect for drawings. They’re not doing it for fun.

Also: the less the client knows, the more expensive it gets — because you’re doing real diagnosis:

• goals

• budget

• lifecycle of the business

• constraints

• what’s realistic in their market

Big boundary: the plan is separate and they only do it if the client intends to move forward.

“If you do not have intentions of moving forward, we don’t wanna create this plan for you.”

Also interesting: they claim the plan is break-even, and sometimes they lose money on it if they believe the downstream relationship will be worth it.

6. Brutal honesty as a growth strategy

One of the best moments in the episode: Jon said they’ve told clients straight up that marketing won’t work for them given their budget or competitive reality.

And instead of clients getting mad, it often builds trust because it proves you’re not just trying to cash a check.

That’s a simple rule more agencies should follow:

If the work won’t work, say so early—before it becomes a six-month misery contract.

7. Partnerships: upline + downline (and why most partner programs are fake)

Jon laid out a super practical partnership model:

• Downline: send work to smaller specialists when it’s not your fit.

• Upline: have a bigger partner for work that’s too big for you.

• Make it reciprocal over time.

They pay 10% referral fees to people who send them deals, and he said some partners do very well from that.

He also called out a common partnership lie:

People tell you “we’ll send business” while they’re saying that to 200 other vendors.

His advice:

• be honest if you’re unlikely to send business back

• be selective

• nurture a few high-quality relationships, not 50 flimsy ones

He shared a story of sending one partner a client early on… and then receiving consistent referrals for 10+ years after.

8. Conferences: smaller is often better

Jon backed up something you’ve seen too:

Big conferences come with big sponsors (often your biggest competitor) and big risk.

Smaller events win because:

• less competition

• more intimacy

• better odds of real conversations

• easier to get in front of the right people

He described it as better “dollar for dollar.”

9. Where Oyova is headed: keep adjusting the sails

On the future, Jon’s take was calm:

AI and consolidation are cycles. Agencies that do great work and adapt will keep growing.

“Pay attention to what’s coming… fix your sails the right way.”

That’s the whole vibe: stay sharp, don’t get lazy, keep serving well.

Notable Quotes

“Whatever it took.”

“A lot of people get away from reporting… We go the other way and put more human input into it.”

“We don’t create a program, we don’t create a package. We create a plan.”

“I don’t know a damn thing about your business… we have to figure this out.”

“You’re gonna pay an architect to draw up the plans for your home.”

“You don’t have to have a million partners… nurture a few high-quality ones.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 27: The 4-Direction Partner Framework That Turns 3 Deep Relationships Into a Referral Engine

• Ep. 46: How an 18-Year CMS Agency Keeps Clients for 5+ Years (Without a Sales Team)

• Ep. 58: How a 4-Person Shopify Agency Builds a Partner Engine That Actually Pays Off

Learn More / Get in Touch

Connect with Jon:

• Email: [email protected]

• LinkedIn: Jon Tsourakis

Want More Interviews Like This?

Subscribe to the show on YouTube →

Subscribe to my weekly newsletter →

If this resonates, here's your next step.

Pick the path that fits where you are right now. No pitch deck. No pressure. Just clarity.

Start with the free Bottleneck Score →

See how the Program works →