Behind the Agency

Episode 48: Best Practices Isn't a Differentiator

David Hoos

Interview: How The Gnar Wins with Productized Offers, Fast Onboarding, and a Bug-Free Warranty

Behind the Agency Podcast with Mike Stone, Co-Founder & CEO at The Gnar (Boston-based software development agency)

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Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• The Gnar was born out of layoffs… and a tight team that wanted to keep building together.

• Their sweet spot is 0→1 product work: taking an idea (or roadmap chunk) and getting it to production fast.

• “We use best practices” is like “I eat vegetables.” True, but most people don’t actually do it.

• They created real differentiation by packaging their work: Ideate, Ignite, Embed.

• They offer a bug-free warranty for the first year on code they ship (rare in dev shops).

• They’re obsessed with speed to productivity: shipping production code in week one.

• Partnerships aren’t just for lead gen—they’re a “hub-and-spoke” model to deliver more value without clients juggling vendors.

• Their GTM is still mostly referrals, but they’re leaning more into LinkedIn + thought leadership + better website assets.

• Their next big frontier: AI integration as a packaged offering (and staying sharp as tools change fast).

Does This Sound Familiar?

Your pitch says senior engineers, clean code, modern practices, strong communication. So does the shop that just undercut you by 20%. The buyer can't tell you apart, so they pick on price and you get to be annoyed about it.

Mike Stone's version of this is that saying you use best practices is like saying you eat vegetables. It's probably true. It also doesn't separate you from anybody.

So The Gnar made the difference checkable instead of claimed. They packaged the work into three named offers, Ideate, Ignite and Embed, so a buyer can see what they're getting rather than reading adjectives. They ship production code in the first week, which turns speed from a promise into something you notice immediately.

And they put a real cost behind the claim. Code The Gnar ships carries a bug-free warranty for the first year, which almost nobody in custom development offers, because it only makes sense if the practices are actually there.

Now, that's the useful test for your own pitch. Find the claim you make that a competitor would be afraid to guarantee, then guarantee it.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Mike Stone is the Co-Founder and CEO of The Gnar, a Boston-based software development agency that helps small-to-mid sized companies launch new tech initiatives—especially in the early “0 to 1” stage.

Mike’s background includes time in professional sports, and you can feel that influence in how he talks about teams: culture, collaboration, and doing the fundamentals consistently.

The Gnar started as nights-and-weekends contract work with his co-founder Nick Maloney—and after a startup pivot + layoffs, they went full-time and brought key teammates along for the ride.

Episode Summary1) The origin story: layoffs turned into leverage

Mike and Nick were working at a health & wellness startup building products to help people form better daily habits.

When the startup pivoted and layoffs hit, they were ready. Their nights-and-weekends work became the foundation for going full-time—and they scooped up great teammates who’d just been displaced.

It’s one of those “looks obvious in hindsight” stories… but Mike was clear: it was messy at first, and they just kept moving.

2) The sweet spot: “innovation SWAT team” for 0→1 builds

Early on, The Gnar did mostly staff augmentation engineering.

Over time, they realized they’re strongest when they deploy a full product team to take something from concept (or early roadmap) to a real, production-ready foundation.

That “0 to 1” focus is important because it forces you to care about fundamentals: architecture, testing, CI/CD, code reviews, and a clean agile process—stuff that’s boring to talk about but brutal to skip.

3) The best analogy of the episode: the gym

Mike said differentiation is hard because what they do is “simple and difficult at the same time.”

His analogy landed:

Going to the gym and eating better is simple. It works. Everyone knows it.

Most people still don’t do it.

Same thing in software. Best practices are known. Many teams still cut corners. The Gnar tries to win by actually doing the fundamentals consistently, then backing it up with specific proof.

4) Differentiators that aren’t fluff

They’ve turned “quality” into concrete promises:

• Bug-free warranty: for the first year after launch, if there’s a regression in their code, they fix it for free.

• Rapid onboarding: they aim to ship production code in the first week.

• 100% U.S.-based experienced talent

• Dedicated full-time engineers (no context switching)

• Founder oversight on every project

• A “Project Success” role focused on outcomes, timeline, budget, and client happiness (lighter than a full PM, but designed to keep projects on track)

None of this is sexy marketing. That’s the point. It’s operational differentiation.

5) Productization: Ideate → Ignite → Embed

This was one of the strongest parts of the conversation.

They created 3 core packages:

• Ideate: discovery + wireframes + visual exploration + clickable prototype (investor-friendly)

• Ignite: turn that prototype into a production product (often combined with Ideate into a “get to market” package)

• Embed: place their engineers inside your team to speed up roadmap delivery

This structure does a few things at once:

• de-risks the initial decision for clients

• creates clear “entry points” into working together

• makes the sales conversation feel less like “custom everything” and more like a proven path

Mike also mentioned they provide a development estimate at the end of Ideate—and clients own everything, with no obligation to build with them (though most do).

They also offer a free code audit as another low-friction way to start a relationship.

6) Going to market: fundamentals + experimentation

Like most dev shops, their biggest engine is still repeat work and referrals.

But they’re actively building other channels:

• more consistent LinkedIn content

• shifting thought leadership from “ego content” to “proof of experience + helpful guidance”

• website redesign

• considering webinars, Loom videos, and deeper educational assets

• using AI tools to drive efficiency in sales and marketing workflows

A moment I liked: you both acknowledged tools come and go (cold email, LinkedIn tactics, etc.), but Mike pushed the “don’t chase tactics without message clarity” idea.

They used the phrase message-market fit, and that really frames the GTM challenge well:

If you’re “a software agency that builds anything,” you’re competing with “fintech product consultancy that only builds fintech.” The narrower message usually wins the first impression—even if the generalist could do the job better.

Their packages are partly a way to create clarity without forcing a single-industry niche.

7) Partnerships: mostly delivery-first, but strong upside

Their partnership model today is more “hub-and-spoke” for delivery:

They bring in trusted specialists so clients don’t have to manage a pile of vendors.

But you also discussed how productized entry offers can make partnerships easier—because partners can “test” collaboration with a smaller scoped engagement before sending bigger deals.

And you both hit a real point a lot of agencies miss:

Partnerships work best when there’s minimal overlap—more “Venn diagram” than head-to-head competition.

8) The future: AI as both an internal advantage and a client offering

They’re seeing more AI integration work already, and they’re moving toward packaging that (he mentioned something like “Gnar Integrate”).

Mike’s take wasn’t “AI replaces dev.” It was: AI forces agencies to stay sharp, pick smart bets, and get really good at delivering AI solutions that are actually tied to a product’s real workflow—not just bolting on a chatbot.

Notable Quotes

“Differentiation is hard… it’s basic best practices. Simple and difficult at the same time.”

“If I went to the gym every day and ate better, I’d be healthier… but I don’t.”

“We pride ourselves on shipping production code in the first week.”

“Message-market fit… you can only go so far saying ‘we build anything for anyone.’”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 53: How a WordPress Agency Wins Enterprise Publishers Without Enterprise Headcount

• Ep. 12: Strategy Is the Only Thing That Cannot Be Commoditized

• Ep. 51: How a Python Agency Turned Engineer Preferences Into a Market Position

Learn More / Get in Touch

Website → thegnar.com

LinkedIn → Mike Stone (best place to follow his thinking)

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Episode 47: Why Most Software Projects Fail Before a Single Line of Code

David Hoos

Interview: Reducing Software Risk Through Upfront Clarity

Behind the Agency Podcast with Jeff Francis, Founder of Eno8

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Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Most failed software projects don’t fail in development—they fail before development even starts.

• Jumping straight to estimates and requirements is one of the most expensive habits in product development.

• Eno8’s Innovation Lab creates clarity before code, dramatically reducing risk.

• Early-stage “generic dev shop” positioning almost pulled the agency away from its original vision.

• Smaller, low-commitment first steps convert better than “big build” pitches.

• Writing detailed user stories too early is often wasted effort.

• Continuity between planning and execution teams matters more than most agencies realize.

• Saying “no” to building the wrong product is still a win for the client.

Does This Sound Familiar?

The client arrives ready to build. They have a deadline, a budget, and a document that reads like requirements without quite being any. You price it, you build what they asked for, and nine months later everyone is disappointed in a project that did exactly what was specified.

So it looks like a delivery problem and it never was. Jeff Francis puts the failure earlier than most people look. Most software projects fail before development starts.

He built Eno8 around closing that gap, and it took about 9 years to get from generic development shop to a focused innovation practice. Eno8 runs an Innovation Lab that creates clarity before code, which is a paid engagement rather than a free scoping call.

And that changes what the first sale is. A small, low-commitment first step converts better than pitching a big build, because you're asking the client for a decision they can actually make today.

Now, his hardest line is the one that costs money in the short run. Saying no to building the wrong product is still a win for the client. That's easy to agree with and expensive to actually do, which is why it's worth hearing him explain how he prices it.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Jeff Francis is the Founder of Eno8, an innovation studio that helps companies design and build the right software products before investing millions in development. With a background in custom product development and mobile apps, Jeff now works with founders and product leaders to reduce risk, improve clarity, and avoid failed software launches.

Before Eno8, Jeff exited a mobile app development company—an experience that heavily shaped his views on why so many products struggle.

Episode Summary1. From mobile apps to innovation studio

Jeff started Eno8 nearly nine years ago after exiting a mobile app business. While he had deep experience in mobile, he intentionally didn’t want to build another “mobile-first” agency. Instead, he saw a bigger, longer-lasting problem: companies will always need help innovating—no matter what technology is trending.

That insight led to Eno8 positioning itself as an innovation studio, not just a development shop.

2. The trap of becoming a “generic dev shop”

Like many agencies, Eno8 drifted away from its original vision in the early years. Revenue needs pulled them toward familiar mobile app work. The business was stable—but uninspiring.

“We were profitable, but we weren’t aligned with the vision we started with. And that kind of stinks.”

The realization: being a generic dev shop is survivable—but brutally competitive and creatively draining.

3. Solving the real problem before code

Jeff noticed a pattern across failed projects: lack of clarity before development. Bad assumptions. Vague goals. Rushed estimates.

Instead of starting with quotes and timelines, Eno8 began offering a smaller, lower-risk entry point: the Innovation Lab.

This reframed the sales conversation from “How much will it cost?” to “What should we even build?”

4. The Innovation Lab framework (high level)

The Innovation Lab evolved over time, but the core idea is simple:

• Clarify the problem worth solving

• Define success before development

• Reduce uncertainty around scope, budget, and risk

• Create artifacts clients can use—even if they don’t continue

Key iteration lessons:

• Epic-level requirements beat early user stories

• UI/UX design delivers more early value than specs

• Planning teams should stay involved through execution

5. The biggest mistake Jeff sees

Rushing into development because “we just need to build something.”

“That’s a terrible way to build products.”

The fix: slow down just enough to ask better questions and create shared clarity.

6. Why founders still matter

AI may speed up development, but it doesn’t decide what to build. Jeff believes clarity, judgment, and problem framing will become even more valuable as tools get faster.

The Innovation Lab becomes more important—not less—in an AI-accelerated world.

7. A healthy view of partnerships

Jeff takes a long-term view on partnerships. No squeezing the last dollar. No scarcity mindset.

“I don’t need to take the last dollar. It’s about growing the pie.”

That mindset has shaped Eno8’s approach to referrals, resourcing, and marketing partners alike.

Notable Quotes

“Most software projects fail before development even starts.”

“Jumping straight to estimates is one of the most expensive habits in our industry.”

“Saying no to building the wrong product is still a win.”

“AI makes knowing what to build more important, not less.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 12: Strategy Is the Only Thing That Cannot Be Commoditized

• Ep. 50: Building Software With Clients, Not For Them

• Ep. 53: How a WordPress Agency Wins Enterprise Publishers Without Enterprise Headcount

Learn More / Get in Touch

Visit → https://eno8.com

LinkedIn → https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-francis/

Want More Interviews Like This?

Subscribe to the show on YouTube →

Subscribe to my weekly newsletter →

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Episode 46: How an 18-Year CMS Agency Keeps Clients for 5+ Years (Without a Sales Team)

David Hoos

Interview: Why Speaking Where Your Clients Gather Beats Chasing Leads Everywhere Else

Behind the Agency Podcast with Matthew O'Bryant, President of Oomph

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Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Oomph grew to 18 years old by evolving with technology—but staying consistent in who they serve.

• Partner-led growth worked early, then slowly lost power as ecosystems got crowded.

• Outsourced cold outreach failed—not because cold calling is dead, but because context and expertise matter.

• Conferences work when you go where your buyers actually are—and speak, not just sponsor.

• Expect a 3-year payoff on conferences: sleep → creep → leap.

• Retainers and long-term client relationships (>5 years on average) are the real growth engine.

• The next frontier is separating account growth from net-new sales—and using AI as an amplifier, not a replacement.

Does This Sound Familiar?

The same people who run your client work are the people who find your next client. So growth moves in the gaps between deliverables, and a busy quarter is also a quarter where nothing new got built.

Matthew O'Bryant has run Oomph for 18 years and watched the usual answers wear out. Partner-led growth worked beautifully, then the ecosystems got crowded.

Outsourced cold outreach failed too, and his read on why is the sharpest line in the episode. Cold calling doesn't fail, context does.

So what works for them now is conferences, with a rule attached. If they aren't speaking, they usually won't sponsor, because a logo doesn't produce the conversations that a stage does.

And he's realistic about the timeline in a way most people selling conference strategy aren't. In the first year they sleep, in the second they creep, in the third they leap. It's a three-year payoff, so treat it as a build rather than a campaign.

Now, underneath all of it is the thing actually paying the bills. Client relationships that average over five years, which is the engine that buys you the patience to run a three-year play at all.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Matthew O’Bryant is the President of Oomph, a digital agency that designs, builds, and improves complex websites and platforms using open-source technology like WordPress and Drupal.

Since joining Oomph, Matthew has helped guide the firm through multiple market shifts—from proprietary CMS work to modern open-source and headless builds—while building a business anchored in long-term client relationships, not churn.

Today, Oomph primarily serves higher education and healthcare organizations with ongoing support, UX optimization, and continuous improvement.

Episode Summary

1. From proprietary CMS to open source longevity

Oomph started in 2007 doing custom work on a proprietary CMS that eventually became irrelevant. Instead of clinging to it, the team shifted toward WordPress, Drupal, and later headless CMS tools—adapting as the market changed.

Longevity didn’t come from betting on one tool. It came from staying useful.

2. The real growth challenge: new logos, not retention

Oomph is great at growing existing accounts.

Average client tenure: 5+ years.

The harder part? Net-new business.

“Most of our growth over 18 years has come from existing clients.”

That reality forced a hard look at how they approach sales and marketing.

3. Why outsourced cold outreach failed

They tried cold email, LinkedIn outreach, and even cold calling through third-party firms.

It didn’t work.

Not because cold calling is useless—but because outsiders lacked context.

“They could get people on the phone—but they couldn’t engage them.”

The fix? Build internal outreach with people who actually understand the work, the clients, and the stories behind past projects.

4. Conferences that actually produce ROI

Early mistake: attending tech conferences full of peers.

Better move: attending industry conferences where buyers already are—especially healthcare and higher ed.

The biggest unlock?

Speaking + sponsoring, not just buying a booth.

• Speaking establishes expertise

• Promoting talks drives pre-event awareness

• Talks create post-session booth traffic

• Crowds attract crowds (“activity begets activity”)

Now Oomph often skips sponsoring if they don’t have a speaker slot.

5. The 3-year rule for conferences

Matthew shared a simple mental model:

• Year 1: They sleep (brand awareness)

• Year 2: They creep (recognition + rapport)

• Year 3: They leap (trust → opportunities)

Small-to-mid-sized conferences (250–750 people) matter because relationships compound. People notice who shows up consistently.

6. Productizing what makes sense (and not forcing the rest)

• Initial projects: fully custom

• Ongoing support & maintenance: productized packages

• Enterprise retainers: flexible, but structured

This balance made delivery easier and value clearer—without oversimplifying complex work.

7. AI: threat, tool, or both?

Matthew sees AI as both exciting and unsettling.

Yes, tools can now migrate entire sites with a click.

But they’re copying—not creating.

“AI is making copies of copies.”

Oomph’s bet: use AI to speed up thinking, creativity, and strategy—not replace judgment, UX insight, or problem-solving.

Notable Quotes

“Cold calling doesn’t fail. Context fails.”

“If you’re not speaking, we usually won’t sponsor.”

“First year they sleep. Second year they creep. Third year they leap.”

“AI can copy. It can’t originate.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 42: How to Run an Agency for 20 Years Without Blowing It Up

• Ep. 57: 25 Years of Agency Survival (What Actually Kept the Lights On)

• Ep. 34: How Fan Emails and Case Studies Built a 25-Year Agency

Learn More / Get in Touch

Visit → https://oomphinc.com

Email → [email protected]

LinkedIn → Search “Matthew O’Bryant, Oomph”

Want More Interviews Like This?

Subscribe to the show on YouTube →

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Episode 45: Stop Saying Yes to Everything (Before It Kills Your Agency)

David Hoos

Behind the Agency Podcast with David Wall, Co-Founder of Dusted (UK)

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Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• The biggest early-stage trap: saying “yes” to everything… and accidentally building a business with no identity.

• Specialization isn’t a branding exercise — it’s how you stop pitching “whatever you need” and start getting sought out.

• Dusted doesn’t “productize” branding outcomes. They standardize the process so clients understand what they’re buying.

• Pricing stays sane when you treat scope like a contract, not a vibe. (“That’s outside scope” has to be a normal sentence.)

• Retainers and “activation” work (post-brand) are how you get off the hamster wheel of constantly hunting new clients.

• SEO can become “gold dust” when it consistently delivers right-fit inquiries, not just traffic.

• The “get in the room” game matters: reputation opens doors, but expertise closes and keeps the work.

• After surviving every possible agency-era (recessions, pandemics, tech shifts), the goal becomes choosing clients you want, not just whoever shows up.

Does This Sound Familiar?

You said yes to branding, then to websites, then to the campaign work a client asked about, and now the agency does a bit of everything and stands for none of it. The team is stretched and the pitch changes on every call.

So there's no sentence you can say that makes a buyer lean forward. And scope creep isn't a scheduling problem at that point, it's the price of having never defined what you sell.

David Wall co-founded Dusted in the UK in 2004, so he's watched this play out through recessions, a pandemic and a few technology shifts. One client has been with them for 20 years. That's the result worth pausing on, because it says more about how they run engagements than any new business number would.

His discipline is specific and unglamorous. Standardize the process rather than the outcome, so a client understands what they're buying. Treat scope as a contract, which means "that's outside scope" has to be a sentence anyone on your team can say without flinching.

And he's clear about what buying actually turns on. Clients have two real questions, which are how long it takes and what it costs. Everything else is you.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

David Wall is the Co-Founder of Dusted, a UK agency that helps organizations sharpen their brand strategy and bring it to life through digital and marketing activation.

Dusted was founded in 2004, in the same “new web” era as Gmail, Flickr, and “The Facebook.” Over two decades, they’ve evolved from early digital generalists into a focused, strategically-led branding and marketing shop — with long-term clients (including one that’s been with them for 20 years) and a steady flow of inbound inquiries.

(Optional: Before Dusted, David built his career in the early digital wave and grew alongside the industry as platforms and expectations changed.)

Episode Summary

1. The origin story: two guys, a big bet, and the early web

Dusted started in 2004 because David and his co-founder wanted to do their own thing — and thought they could run an agency better.

Then reality showed up: it’s harder than it looks. Lots of work. Lots of mistakes. Lots of learning.

But the advantage of starting early was being near the front of “digital” before it became table stakes.

2. The main tension: generalist work is survivable… until it isn’t

In the early years, Dusted said yes to almost anything that came through the door. That kept cash moving — but it created confusion.

Clients would ask what they did, and the agency would (basically) ask what the client needed and shape-shift on the spot.

That’s a tough place to be because you’re letting the buyer define your business.

“You can’t be a generalist, because nobody buys that.”

3. Their unique way of solving it: lead with strategy, then activate

Dusted fine-tuned into a clearer offer:

• Strategically-led brand work first

• Then everything that falls out of that: website, marketing, collateral, comms (“activation”)

A big part of their maturity is being willing to challenge clients who show up asking for the wrong “thing.”

Example: the client asks for a website, but Dusted knows the real need is brand clarity first.

4. The framework: bespoke outcomes, standardized process

They don’t sell “Brand Package A / Website Package B.”

They sell bespoke work — but with a process that’s structured enough to price and deliver confidently.

What’s standardized:

• stages of work

• activities per stage

• deliverables per stage

• time + roles + cost logic

That structure solves the “branding is intangible” problem because the client can see what they’ll actually get and why it matters.

David put it simply: if the CEO asks “why are we that color?” there needs to be a real reason.

5. The common ‘cringe’ moment: fixed fee without understanding delivery

David called out where agencies get hurt:

• offering fixed fees without really thinking through what delivery requires

• underestimating effort

• eating scope creep

• waking up later and realizing the project wasn’t profitable

The fix is boring but powerful:

• define scope clearly up front

• model cost based on people + time + rates

• be confident saying: “That’s outside scope. Here’s what it costs.”

He also kept it real: sometimes you do a deal — but not in a way that undermines your process or burns your team.

6. Where the founder still belongs: in the room, but not as a magician

David made a point that applies to a lot of agencies:

Reputation gets you in the door — but you still have to perform once you’re there.

They focus on getting in the room, then bringing senior expertise and clarity the client doesn’t usually hear.

It’s not “founder magic.” It’s the ability to diagnose, guide, and communicate like a true partner.

7. Hiring, scaling, and process lessons: retention is the real growth engine

The biggest “scaling” lesson wasn’t headcount. It was shifting from constant new business hunting to repeatable long-term relationships.

Two keys:

1. Work with clients who have ongoing needs (not just one-time rebrands)

2. Build “activation” work and retainers so revenue becomes predictable

David said the best feeling is looking at the quarter and realizing a big chunk of revenue is already committed.

That changes:

• forecasting

• resourcing

• stress levels

• how desperate you feel in sales

Notable Quotes

“You can’t be a generalist, because nobody buys that.”

“Sometimes we have to challenge the client… there’s no point talking about your homepage when we need to talk about what makes you different.”

“The two key questions clients have are: how long will it take, and how much will it cost.”

“If you give me a drink or a coffee or a slice of cake, I will talk shop.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 61: Win Better Clients by Going Narrow

• Ep. 10: If You Market to Everybody, You Market to No One

• Ep. 25: One-Page Proposals, 4-Day Weeks, and a 90% Faster Close Process

Learn More / Get in Touch

Visit → dusted.com

Email → (Not shared in the interview)

Call → (Not shared in the interview)

Want More Interviews Like This?

Subscribe to the show on YouTube →

Subscribe to my weekly newsletter →

If this resonates, here's your next step.

Pick the path that fits where you are right now. No pitch deck. No pressure. Just clarity.

Start with the free Bottleneck Score →

See how the Program works →

Episode 44: Sequencing Your Way Past the $2M Referral Ceiling

David Hoos

Behind the Agency Podcast with Andrew Drach, Head of Solway Consulting

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Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Andrew’s agency DNA comes from academia: share what you learn, collaborate, and don’t attach strings to advice.

• He intentionally tries to make himself obsolete for clients—teach them enough that they don’t “need” him.

• That philosophy can limit “hypergrowth,” but it produced steady 20–30% YoY growth (and ~25% this year) mainly through referrals.

• The ceiling hits around ~$2M: referrals can’t be your only engine if you want to scale to $10M.

• His big mindset flip on outbound: the difference between “spam” and “best email I got today” is often brand recognition + relevance.

• Outreach failed for years because he tried tactics before prerequisites: no clear brand voice, no trust signals, no presence.

• What finally worked: build trust assets first (content, SEO, PR, awards), then do focused outreach to the right prospects with the right message.

• The 2 keys for messaging: relevance (it fits) + resonance (they care).

• To go upmarket, you can’t stay horizontal. You have to pick a vertical + a clear pain.

• His best niche wedge: “I’m an engineer, we solve industrial engineering problems. Software is just one tool in the toolbox.”

Does This Sound Familiar?

Referrals pay the bills and you can't make them arrive. Good quarter, thin quarter, and no lever you can pull that changes which one you get. Every plan you write starts with an assumption you don't control.

Andrew Drach found where that stops working. Referral-only growth tops out around $2M, and getting to $10M needs demand you can actually generate.

But the part worth your time is why his outbound failed for years first. He ran the tactics before the prerequisites were in place.

There was no clear voice, no trust signals, nothing a stranger could check. So the emails weren't wrong. The sequence was.

So he built the trust assets first, which for him meant content, search, press and awards, and only then ran focused outreach at a short list.

His two tests for a message are relevance, meaning it fits their situation, and resonance, meaning they care. The difference between spam and the best email someone got today is usually both of those, plus already knowing who you are.

Andrew came out of academia and still gives his strategy away, aiming to make himself unnecessary by the end of an engagement. It caps his growth at 20 to 30% a year, and he's fine with that trade.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Andrew Drach runs Solway Consulting. His path is weird in the best way: he came from academia (ran a research lab, published a lot, lived in the “open knowledge” world), then moved into entrepreneurship and agency consulting.

His worldview is direct (he attributes some of that to growing up in Ukraine) and it shows in how he runs the business:

• strategy/advice should be objective

• recommendations shouldn’t be influenced by referral fees

• clients should leave stronger than they arrived

Episode Summary

1. The “unusual transition” (academia → agency)

Andrew said the “find a mentor” advice didn’t work for him because… who exactly has a roadmap for: academia → lab → entrepreneurship → agency?

But he took the best parts of academia with him:

• people help each other

• you share what you learn

• mentorship is normal

• your work gets validated publicly

That became the DNA of Solway Consulting.

2. A contrarian philosophy: free advice, no kickbacks, no strings

Andrew makes a sharp point: he doesn’t want his advice to feel like a product with an hourly price tag.

Not in a “sales trick” way—more like “this is how I think the world should work.”

Same with tools/platforms: if someone offers reseller fees, he’s not interested. If there’s a discount for clients, sure. But the recommendation has to stand on its own.

That’s a pretty big middle finger to the usual agency incentives.

3. “My job is to make sure you don’t need us anymore.”

This part is wild because it’s the opposite of what most agency growth advice says.

He tries to make himself obsolete by the end of the engagement:

• empower the client

• teach their team

• remove dependency

He admits this creates constraints on scaling, but it’s also why referrals are strong: clients feel treated like colleagues, not “accounts.”

4. The growth story: steady, referral-led… until it isn’t

Solway started in 2016.

They’ve grown every year with ~20–30% organic growth, and Andrew mentioned about 25% growth this year.

But here’s the honest part: they never really “learned sales” because they didn’t have to.

And then the ceiling showed up:

• 0 → $1M: mostly organic + network

• $1M → $2M: still mostly organic, but he started thinking about control/predictability

• $2M+ and aiming for $10M: different game, different tools, different approach

5. The cold outreach misconception (and why his first attempt failed)

Andrew’s hatred of cold outreach makes total sense when you hear his lived experience:

• dozens of random calls offering dev services… to a dev agency

• tens of thousands of junk emails

• he basically gave up on his inbox

So when he first tried outbound (late 2019), he told a hired sales team:

“I hate cold outreach. We’re not doing this.”

That led nowhere.

Then his perspective changed after a friend (a successful D2C marketing consultant) explained the difference:

There are two “cold emails”:

1. “Why is this in my inbox?”

2. “This is my luckiest day.”

And sometimes the copy can be basically the same.

The difference is recognition + timing + relevance.

If they’ve seen you before, it lands differently.

6. What actually worked: sequence + prerequisites

This is the most useful lesson in the whole episode:

He wasn’t doing the wrong tactics. He was doing them in the wrong order.

The fix was sequencing:

Step 1: build trust signals

• consistent publishing (they did ~1 blog post per week for 2+ years)

• backlinks + SEO traction

• PR articles

• awards

• stronger social presence + personal network

He mentioned their site went from basically invisible to something like ~1M impressions and ~50k clicks/year (he said he didn’t remember the exact numbers, but it was way more traction than expected).

Step 2: build a brand voice

• so your message doesn’t sound like generic “we do custom software”

Step 3: run focused outreach

• only approach prospects likely to need your services

• go slower on purpose for higher quality outcomes

• lead with proof + credibility, not “hey do you need software?”

He even gave the simple before/after:

• Before: “We do custom software. Need help?”

• Now: “Award-winning team. 100+ projects. Testimonials. Built X for NASA.” (plus other proof points)

7. Moving upmarket: vertical niche + engineering lens

To target bigger companies, he realized:

• you can’t go after every vertical

• your existing reputation in “startup land” doesn’t transfer into enterprise

• you basically start over, but with clearer focus

So he leaned into his roots:

• manufacturing + mechanical engineering

• computational sciences

• biomedical lab experience

Now the pitch is:

“I’m an engineer. We understand industrial pain. Let’s talk.”

And he frames software correctly (this is the part I loved):

Software isn’t the product. It’s a tool.

The real solution is software + operations + people + data working together to remove friction and improve efficiency.

8. Two words that matter: Relevance + Resonance

Andrew drew a clean line:

• Relevance: it matches the situation

• Resonance: it hits something they actually care about

And he learned the hard way: you can’t have resonance with “everyone.”

9. Family-run story as a trust anchor

Andrew and his wife run the agency together, and early on he worried it would make them sound like a “mom and pop shop.”

But he found the opposite:

in a noisy market, people look for a human hook.

“Family-owned” became a credibility anchor because it signals:

• long-term alignment

• stability

• real partnership

• values you can feel

He even referenced that pandemic-era moment we all remember: kid runs into a live interview—suddenly the world realized work and life are linked, and being human is fine.

10. The future: control the demand

Andrew’s vision is clear:

In 3 years, Solway is not “hoping” for referrals.

It’s a company that can control:

• visibility

• presence

• demand

• reputation inside specific sectors (especially industrial)

Still doing startups because it’s fun… but building a durable engine in the niche.

Notable Quotes

“My time and my advice and strategy comes for free.”

“By the time we finish our engagement, you should not need us anymore.”

“It wasn’t that we were trying the wrong ideas… it was the sequencing and the prerequisites.”

“It’s relevance… and it has to resonate.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 20: Why This Agency Ditched the Big Reveal and Lets Clients Co-Create Instead

• Ep. 55: Why Your Agency Is Great at Marketing (Everyone but Yourself)

• Ep. 10: If You Market to Everybody, You Market to No One

Learn More / Get in Touch

Andrew said: not email.

Best ways:

• LinkedIn (fastest replies)

• Twitter

• In-person at events

He also emphasized: door is open, questions welcome, no strings attached.

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Episode 43: Why This Mobile Agency Tells Leads They Do Not Need an App

David Hoos

Interview: Steamclock’s “Do Less, Better” Growth Playbook for Mobile App Agencies (with Nick Wilkinson)

Behind the Agency Podcast with Nick Wilkinson, Managing Director, Steamclock Software

Watch

Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Growth doesn’t have to mean headcount. Steam Clock aims to stay small (15-ish, maybe 20), and grow profit + quality instead.

• A big part of growth is knowing how you don’t want to grow. They avoid adding services (backend, broad web) just to “feed the beast.”

• They sell like doctors, not like car salesmen. A lot of leads don’t need a mobile app—and saying that out loud builds trust fast.

• Positioning is a guardrail, not a tagline. They “walk the walk” by turning down projects that would pull them away from mobile excellence.

• Relationships beat tactics. Their marketing is the long game: conferences, blog posts for CTOs, LinkedIn, VC relationships, and agency partners.

• They’re allergic to hourly thinking. They’re moving away from “units of doing” toward consultative value (strategy + judgment).

• Specialization doesn’t mean boredom. Depth creates variety (new Apple platforms, new APIs, new UX patterns) even if the category stays the same.

• Watch the hype cycles—don’t marry them. They’re curious about Apple Intelligence/voice-first UX, but not betting the company on it.

Does This Sound Familiar?

A client asks whether you also do backend. Or broader web work. And you say yes, because it's revenue, and because saying no to a good client feels reckless.

Two years of that and you have more services, more people, the same margin, and a team spread across work you're only adequate at.

Nick Wilkinson runs Steamclock and treats that as the failure mode rather than the growth path. He's kept the company at 15 to 20 people on purpose, optimising profit per person and craft instead of headcount.

So his phrasing is the part worth borrowing. A big part of growth is knowing the ways you don't want to grow. That's a decision you make once and then defend on every sales call.

And they defend it in an unusual way. Steamclock sells like doctors rather than car salesmen, which means telling a lead they don't need a mobile app when they don't. It costs them the deal and changes what the conversation is.

Now, they're also moving off hourly billing, and Nick's phrase for what's wrong with it lands. Hours sell units of doing when what the client is buying is units of thinking.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Nick Wilkinson is the Managing Director of Steamclock Software, a team that builds mobile apps for growth-stage tech companies. Steam Clock handles the full mobile journey—strategy → design → development, and only does web work when it supports a mobile experience.

Nick started his career in project management (engineering background), worked across industries (including work connected to NASA and the Canadian Space Program), then moved into software and agency life. Over time, he shifted from project delivery into sales + client relationships, and ultimately stepped into leadership as the former CEO moved on to start something new.

📌 Episode Summary

1. From project manager to agency leader

Nick’s path wasn’t “I always wanted to run an agency.” It was more like: he got really good at managing complex work, learned how dev teams actually function in the real world, and eventually realized he wanted to stay in agencies—just not as “the person holding the Gantt chart” forever.

Steam Clock had been on his radar for years. The timing finally clicked when they needed someone stronger on the relationship/sales side. From there, his responsibilities grew naturally into leadership.

2. The main tension: growth vs. staying true to what you do

Nick makes a point that a lot of agencies avoid saying out loud:

Not all growth is good growth.

He’s seen what happens when agencies expand services because leads show up that sort of fit.

“A part of growth is knowing, like, the ways in which you don’t want to grow.”

For Steam Clock, “growth” is not “let’s become a 100-person shop.” It’s: do great mobile work, stay profitable, and don’t drift into random services just to keep people busy.

3. Their unique way of solving it: focus + fundamentals

Nick’s approach is almost boring in the best way:

• Keep wages and hiring disciplined (don’t hire out of excitement)

• Use contractors to flex up/down

• Watch overhead (licenses, tools, office size)

• Prefer longer engagements for smoother revenue

• Avoid clients who shop by hourly rate

That’s the core mindset: stay excellent, stay stable, stay choosy.

4. Define growth as profit, then build the flywheel that feeds it

Here’s the simplest version of Nick’s “how we grow” model:

• Define growth (profit + quality, not headcount)

• Protect the niche (mobile-first, don’t casually expand services)

• Build the long-game flywheel

  • word of mouth (but don’t rely on it)

  • targeted content for CTOs

  • the right conferences (not necessarily the biggest ones)

  • relationships with VCs (because their clients are growth-stage)

  • relationships with other agencies (referrals + reciprocation)

• Sell through consulting

  • start by figuring out what they actually need

  • be willing to say “you don’t need a mobile app”

A detail I loved: they even have a microsite basically called “Do You Really Need a Mobile App?” that often ends with “probably not.” That’s such a confident move.

5. Six to eight months locked into work you’d rather not show anyone

The cringe pattern Nick calls out is the agency version of “sure, we can do that”:

• taking work outside your core lane because it’s “cool” or because people are idle

• then getting stuck in a long project you don’t even want to show off later

• and missing the work you actually want

His fix is simple: if you’re locking people in for 6–8 months, it better build the company you’re trying to become.

6. Where leadership still belongs

Nick’s leadership “home base” is expectation management and alignment:

• manage client expectations without being transactional

• build consensus internally around what “good” looks like

• make sure the positioning shows up in decisions, not just words

7. Modest headcount, contractors for the swings, longer commitments over higher rates

A few practical scaling points from how he thinks:

• Keep headcount growth modest to avoid desperation work

• Use contractors to smooth volatility

• Don’t ignore “small” expenses (tool sprawl adds up)

• Prefer longer commitments even if it means slightly lower rates (predictability > squeezing every dollar)

Notable Quotes

“The goal is not to sell what we have to the people who need it. The goal is to do business with people who believe what we believe.”

“A part of growth is knowing the ways in which you don’t want to grow.”

“We’ve gotten away from billing by the hour… units of doing instead of units of thinking.”

“In most cases, the lead didn’t need what we’re selling… it changes the dynamic of the conversation.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 45: Stop Saying Yes to Everything (Before It Kills Your Agency)

• Ep. 61: Win Better Clients by Going Narrow

• Ep. 48: Best Practices Isn't a Differentiator

Learn More / Get in Touch

Visit → steamclock.com

LinkedIn → Nick Wilkinson (search and connect; mention the podcast)

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Episode 42: How to Run an Agency for 20 Years Without Blowing It Up

David Hoos

Interview: The Accidental Agency That Became a 20-Year Specialist (Karla Santi of Blend Interactive)

Behind the Agency Podcast with Karla Santi Founder + CEO of Blend Interactive

Watch

Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Karla calls herself an accidental entrepreneur: she inherited clients when her agency employer shut down, and it snowballed into a real company.

• Blend isn’t “full service.” They focus on large-scale, complex website implementations (especially where compliance + complexity matter).

• Their niche emerged when the web got more complex and their team realized they genuinely enjoyed the “boring” hard problems other agencies avoided.

• Karla’s take on durability is super grounded: grow conservatively, protect payroll, and don’t spend money you haven’t earned yet.

• They built a strong advantage by being early partners in platforms (Optimizely/Episerver, Umbraco, etc.) — “big fish in a small pond.”

• Pipeline is still mostly word of mouth + thought leadership, but long-term retention means they don’t need a huge volume of new deals each year.

• Their “stay relevant” approach is basically 80% proven process + 20% R&D, often via pro bono / mission-driven work to test new tech safely.

• Karla’s leadership POV: purpose matters — even “just a website” can be helping a parent find the right doctor faster during a hard season.

Does This Sound Familiar?

You've been at this long enough that your name is on the lease, the payroll, and probably a personal guarantee. So you run it carefully. You don't spend money you haven't earned, you hire later than you'd like, and you've never bet the company on a single quarter.

That caution is why you're still here. It isn't the same thing as durability.

Careful gets you through a bad quarter. Durable means the work keeps arriving when you're not the one bringing it in.

Karla Santi has run Blend Interactive for close to twenty years, and the number she watches is the split. Roughly 75% of Blend's revenue comes from clients who were already there, so only about a quarter of the year has to be won again.

A slow sales quarter is annoying at that ratio. It isn't an emergency. She protects the ratio with an 80/20 rule on capacity, where 80% goes to proven process and 20% goes to research, usually through pro bono work where new technology is allowed to fail.

Now, if you're fifteen or twenty years in and you've started quietly wondering what the business is worth to anyone but you, this is the conversation to listen to. Karla is direct about the parts she still hasn't handed off.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Karla Santi is the Founder and CEO of Blend Interactive, a digital agency that specializes in complex website builds (not full-service marketing). Blend is based in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, and has been around for almost 20 years (founded in the mid-2000s, with a 2025 “20-year” milestone mentioned in the conversation).

Blend tends to gravitate toward industries where the stakes are higher and requirements are real—like children’s hospitals (HIPAA/compliance) and finance/banking—and they’re known for being the steady, expert team that can implement complicated platforms well.

Episode Summary

1. An “accidental entrepreneur” origin story

Karla didn’t wake up one day with a mastermind plan to start an agency.

She studied graphic design, landed in a website internship in 1997, and got good at web work when it was still rare. Then the agency she worked for went out of business… and she took over the clients to finish the work.

That “temporary” work became a real decision:

Do I keep freelancing… or do I do this for real?

She chose “for real.” And then came the moment every founder remembers:

hiring the first employee, realizing your company name is now “on someone’s mortgage.”

2. The main tension: most agencies chase variety, but clients pay for depth

Early on, Blend took whatever came in the door (CD-ROMs, anyone?). But as the web matured, complexity exploded—and Karla’s team found something important:

They loved solving hard, unglamorous problems.

That turned into a niche: not “pretty websites,” but complex websites where things break, integrations matter, compliance matters, and the client needs a team that can actually land the plane.

They specifically wanted to avoid the churn-and-burn model of “launch it and disappear.”

3. Their unique way of solving it: specialize in complexity, not “everything”

Karla’s view is simple and (in my opinion) more honest than most agency positioning:

• They’ll build a site that’s set up for great SEO…

• but they won’t be your SEO team.

They choose a lane based on:

• what they’re best at

• what they actually enjoy doing

• what the market will pay for (because it’s genuinely hard)

Then they let other specialists own the parts they don’t love.

4. Complexity niches, platform partnerships, and money you haven’t earned yet

Karla basically shared a few “quiet frameworks” that explain why they’ve lasted:

A. Niche = “complexity niches”

• Not necessarily one industry forever

• But industries where compliance and stakes create complexity (healthcare, banking, etc.)

B. Platform partnerships as leverage

• Be an early adopter in North America for platforms that are strong elsewhere (Europe)

• Become the obvious implementation partner because there aren’t many experienced teams yet

C. Conservative finance = durability

• Separate accounts

• Don’t treat deposits as “your money” until you earn it

• Keep cash on hand to avoid layoffs during storms

D. Relevance without blowing up your delivery

• 80% core proven process (billable work)

• 20% R&D (often pro bono / cause-based) to test tools and stay current

• Aim for “forefront,” not “bleeding edge”

5. Staying current without a budget line for it

This one isn’t a single embarrassing story, but it’s a very real trap:

Agencies love shiny objects, and teams love learning… but billable work eats your calendar.

So the mistake is pretending you can “stay cutting edge” without budgeting for it.

Karla’s fix is practical: carve out intentional space and use lower-risk projects (like pro bono work) as your test lab.

6. Purpose and risk: the two calls Karla still makes herself

Karla’s leadership showed up in two places:

• Purpose: framing the work as helping real people (ex: making it easier to find the right doctor).

• Risk management: making decisions that protect the team and keep the company stable even when the market gets weird.

This is a founder who’s thinking beyond “cool work” and into “we’re responsible for people’s livelihoods.”

7. One to three hires a year, and clients who stay a decade

Blend’s growth story is almost the opposite of the Silicon Valley stereotype.

• Add 1–3 people per year

• Stay profitable

• Build long client relationships (many are 10+ years)

• Reduce dependence on constant net-new sales (Karla mentioned roughly 25% net new per year)

Also, on partnerships:

• They used to act like other agencies’ “tech arm”

• They avoided white labeling, and found it actually helped when they showed up as Blend

• Over time they got pickier because direct client communication matters and not every partner agency wants that

Notable Quotes

“I’m an accidental entrepreneur.”

“Your name is on someone’s mortgage… that’s when things get real.”

“We’re not a full service agency.”

“We can’t spend the money before we have it.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 57: 25 Years of Agency Survival (What Actually Kept the Lights On)

• Ep. 34: How Fan Emails and Case Studies Built a 25-Year Agency

• Ep. 46: How an 18-Year CMS Agency Keeps Clients for 5+ Years (Without a Sales Team)

Learn More / Get in Touch

Visit → blendinteractive.com

Social → Blend Interactive on most platforms

Karla → @karlasanti (most platforms)

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Subscribe to the show on YouTube →

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Episode 41: Why Deal Flow Matters More Than Recurring Revenue

David Hoos

Interview: Building optionality through deal flow, de-risking, and a portfolio mindset

Behind the Agency Podcast with Peter Kang, Co-founder, Barrel Holdings

Watch

Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Peter’s mindset shift: build your agency like someone else might buy it — even if you never sell. It forces better decisions.

• The #1 lesson from launching/spinning off agencies: deal flow is everything. Starting from zero is brutal.

• Barrel Holdings is basically an agency venture studio / holding company: they spin out, launch, and acquire agencies.

• “Recurring revenue” matters, but Peter’s more focused on reoccurring relationships (clients coming back regularly, even if project-based).

• If an agency’s deal flow is near zero, he’s likely to pass on acquisition — too hard to jumpstart, too risky.

• Cross-selling across a portfolio is real, but they don’t force it. The relationship owner protects trust first.

• Partnerships are underrated, and the big rule is simple: be proactive first. Don’t feel entitled to leads you haven’t earned.

• The cleanest definition of being “acquirable”: how de-risked is the business if the founder disappears tomorrow?

Does This Sound Familiar?

You're not selling. You may never sell. But the thought has crossed your mind more than once this year, and the honest version of the answer is that you don't know what anybody would be buying.

Because the pipeline is you, and so are the senior relationships. If you disappeared on Monday the work in progress would finish and then the phone would stop, and everyone in the building knows it.

That's the whole valuation conversation in one sentence, and your revenue has almost nothing to do with it.

Peter Kang sits on the other side of that table for a living. He started Barrel at 23, ran it for about a decade, and now runs Barrel Holdings, which has spun out two agencies, launched one that didn't take, and acquired another. So he's priced this from both chairs.

He'll tell you plainly what he passes on, and it isn't thin margins or a small team. It's an agency with no deal flow of its own. If there's no independent way of getting the next client, the only things left to buy are a shaky client list and people who can leave.

He also corrects the usual line about recurring revenue. What he wants is reoccurring relationships, clients who come back because the need is real, retainer or not.

And his test for whether you're acquirable is the plainest one you'll hear. Take yourself out for a month, then ask whether anything would still happen. If the answer is no, that's the real thing you're working on.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Peter Kang is the co-founder of Barrel Holdings, a holding company that builds a portfolio of agencies through spin-offs, new launches, and acquisitions.

He’s also known for consistently sharing sharp agency insights on LinkedIn and through his writing, including Agency Habits, where he documents lessons learned building and operating agencies.

Episode Summary

1. The turning point: “I was 23… I just wanted to be in business.”

Peter started Barrel young—fresh out of school, minimal work experience, and basically operating with the goal of:

“As long as the bills are paid and we have autonomy, we’re good.”

For about a decade, that worked fine. The business chugged along, and early wins made it feel like they were doing the right thing.

Then the questions started creeping in:

• What does it mean to have a good business?

• What’s the life cycle of an agency?

• Do you run it forever, sell it, hand it to employees, shut it down?

• How do you create optionality?

That kicked off the “build it like it could be sold” mindset. Not because he needed to sell—because it’s a forcing function for building something valuable.

2. Barrel Holdings: spin-offs taught them what “works”

Peter gave a really practical origin story for Barrel Holdings:

• Vaulted Oak came first: a web support/maintenance shop (smaller Shopify + WordPress) spun out from Barrel when those clients no longer fit Barrel’s focus.

  • It worked because it started with a base of clients and a clear “catchment area” for future clients that became “too small for Barrel.”

• BX Studio came next: a Webflow agency built around existing Webflow lead sources (directory + enterprise team).

  • Again: deal flow already existed.

• Then they launched Bolster (brand design studio) and it didn’t take off the same way.

  • That’s where the lesson became painfully clear: starting from scratch without reliable deal flow is way harder than people admit.

Here’s the bar-stool version of that insight:

Starting an agency without deal flow is like opening a restaurant with no street traffic and saying “we’ll just cook better.”

Maybe. But you’re still starving before the reviews show up.

3. The shift to acquisitions (and what Catalog taught them)

Their first acquisition was Catalog (product/web/mobile design studio with a subscription model popular around 2021–2022).

It had:

• existing staff

• existing clients

• operational learnings (deal structure, integration, finance ops)

But it also revealed a red flag:

Tons of churn.

Clients cycling in and out month-to-month created revenue volatility.

That led to a more nuanced view than the usual “you need recurring revenue” talking point.

Peter’s take: recurring is great… but what you really want is reoccurring relationships.

Clients who come back because there’s a real, ongoing need—even if it’s not a locked-in retainer.

4. What Barrel Holdings actually looks for in agencies

When Peter evaluates an acquisition now, he’s looking for:

• Existing client base (proof the agency has real relationships)

• Quality of revenue

  • recurring + reoccurring relationships

  • low volatility / manageable churn

• Organic deal flow

  • inbound content

  • outbound motion

  • referrals from past clients

  • ecosystem relationships (PE/VC, platforms, partners)

• Not starting from “near zero”

  • if deal flow is basically dead, they likely pass

  • because “what are we actually buying?” if the only thing there is a shaky client list and people who could leave

This is a good gut-check for any agency owner, by the way:

If you removed you from the business… would anything still happen?

That’s basically Peter’s north star.

5. ICP overlap and cross-selling (but don’t get greedy)

Their portfolio has a mix:

• Some agencies share ICPs and naturally trade leads (e.g. Amazon agency + Shopify agency in similar verticals).

• Others are far apart (e.g. Barrel’s CPG ecomm focus vs a more B2B branding studio).

But Peter’s key point was mature:

Don’t force cross-selling.

Never jeopardize the primary relationship just to “create synergy.”

That’s the kind of line I wish more holding companies would tattoo on their foreheads.

6. Partnerships: the overlooked channel (and the real rule)

Peter’s blunt take:

Most agencies overlook partnerships… period.

But the bigger idea wasn’t “go do partnerships.” It was how.

His rule: be the proactive one.

Bring value first. Don’t expect leads just because you “could be helpful.”

He called out three partnership buckets that show up across their portfolio:

• Agency partners (bigger/smaller/complementary)

• Platform/software partners (Shopify ecosystem-style relationships)

• Investors (PE/VC relationships that create referrals to portfolio companies)

And he made a great point: sometimes with investors, the play is offering value-add across the portfolio, even if that includes preferential pricing, because it creates a repeatable referral engine.

7. Content: writing as thinking (and as leverage)

Peter’s content story is refreshingly unsexy:

He writes because it helps him think.

Years of blogging + weekly newsletter created a habit, then the audience formed naturally—mostly other agency folks.

Then when Barrel Holdings became the focus, he doubled down on that audience instead of trying to pivot to writing “ecomm content for Barrel leads.”

Bonus: content also became a recruiting lever. He posted a role and got dozens of high-quality candidates within hours.

He compared it to a focused conference that runs every day. That’s… honestly accurate.

8. The tension: urgent deal work vs long-term content

Peter was candid: he doesn’t manage it perfectly.

His solution isn’t fancy:

• calendar blocks (2–3 hours/week)

• protect deep work time (train rides = accidental productivity)

• stop the “endless Zoom creep”

No silver bullets. Just discipline.

9. How to know if you should spin off part of your agency

Peter gave two strong triggers:

A) The “build to sell” lens

• Talk to M&A advisors/bankers.

• Learn what buyers actually value.

• Notice what parts of your current service mix lower the value.

• Make deliberate decisions: shut down, divest, or spin out.

He gave a clean example:

If the market pays more for “pure play Shopify” and your WordPress chunk drags the story down, either wind it down… or spin it into a cash-flow business and refocus the main agency.

B) You’re already operating like separate agencies

If your internal teams are siloed, don’t collaborate, or have tension… you may already be one agency “in name only.”

In that case, splitting can be a strategic cleanup, not just a financial move.

10. The simplest definition of “acquirable”: de-risking

Peter nailed this:

Your job is to de-risk the agency as much as possible.

If the buyer thinks it’s a house of cards without the founder, the value drops. If it feels stable without you, the value goes up.

Notable Quotes

“Let’s build it in a way that someone else looking at it will find it valuable.”

“The big learning… was: is there existing deal flow?”

“You don’t necessarily need locked-in recurring revenue… you need reoccurring relationships.”

“If you start at near nothing… what are we actually buying at that point?”

“Your job as founder is to de-risk your agency as much as possible.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 21: How a Video Agency Scaled on Retainers Without Losing Its Soul

• Ep. 2: You Cannot Sell Consulting and Implementation at the Same Time

• Ep. 40: How a 65-Person Agency Broke Through the 20-Person Wall

Learn More / Get in Touch

Peter on LinkedIn → PeterKang34

Newsletter + site → peterkang.com

Agency Habits → agencyhabits.com

Barrel Holdings → barrel-holdings.com

Want More Interviews Like This?

Subscribe to the show on YouTube →

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Episode 40: How a 65-Person Agency Broke Through the 20-Person Wall

David Hoos

Interview: Relationship-First Biz Dev + The Managed Services “Try Before You Buy” Play

Behind the Agency Podcast with Joe Barsness, Co-Founder at Fjorge

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Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Early growth wasn’t “sales.” It was word-of-mouth and quick yes/no quoting… with basically zero follow-up.

• As the team grew past ~20 people, they had to add real outbound + marketing to keep the pipeline stable.

• Their best growth lever for years: partnering with creative agencies that needed dev capacity or deeper technical capability.

• In-person meetings beat online-only when trust is the real buying filter (people decide fast, emotionally).

• Follow-up that works isn’t “any work for me?” — it’s staying top-of-mind with value and real human touches.

• Partnerships die when both sides wait for the other to refer first. Best partnerships start with fit, not paperwork.

• Their “gateway offer” is Managed Services (taking over + maintaining software they didn’t build).

• Managed Services is a big deal: 35–40% of revenue, 18 of 65 employees, and it feeds project work (and the reverse).

Does This Sound Familiar?

You got here on word of mouth. Somebody calls, you quote fast, you win or you don't, and you never really follow up. That worked beautifully right up until it didn't.

Around twenty people the math changes. Payroll gets big enough that a quiet month is a real problem, and word of mouth doesn't arrive on a schedule. So you know you need outbound, and outbound feels wrong for a business built on people liking you.

Joe Barsness hit that wall at Fjorge and solved it with an offer rather than a sales team. Fjorge's way in is Managed Services, taking over and maintaining software somebody else built. It's a low-risk first yes for a client, and it now runs 35 to 40% of revenue with 18 of the company's 65 people on it.

And it feeds the rest. Managed Services turns into project work, and project work turns into managed services, which is why he treats it as a pillar instead of a side line.

Joe's line on partnerships is the one most agencies need. They die when both sides sit waiting for the other to refer first.

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Meet the Guest

Joe Barsness is the Co-Founder of Fjorge, a Minneapolis-based development agency (dev shop / tech agency) that helps agencies and end-clients with design, development, and managed services. Joe started in corporate (Target), then ran a staffing-style franchise business for 7 years before joining forces with his brother Tim (Fjorge’s founder/CEO). Today Joe focuses heavily on new business and business development, and has helped grow the company from a tiny shop into a ~65-person team.

(Optional: Before Fjorge, Joe owned and operated a College Nannies and Tutors franchise — which is where he built a lot of his “consultative selling” muscle.)

Episode Summary

1. From Target… to staffing… to dev shop co-founder

Joe’s story starts in Minneapolis: two years at Target in merchandising (including a hilarious “I didn’t know what a onesie was” moment), then seven years running a franchise business. When he sold that business, he began helping his brother Tim, who was building a freelance dev practice into a real company.

They started as Barsness Solutions (2012), then rebranded to Fjorge around 2015. Joe eventually gravitated into business development while Tim stayed in the CEO/founder lane.

2. The real tension: growth forces you to “learn sales” whether you want to or not

Early on, sales was basically:

• Someone asks for help

• You quote X

• They say yes/no

• No follow-up, no process

That works at small size… until it doesn’t.

Once they pushed beyond 10 and then 20 people, they hit the wall most agencies hit: you can’t rely on word-of-mouth forever.

“Going in I was an account director. Coming out… business development lead. No department. Just ‘Joe, go figure out how to get new clients.’”

3. Their unique way of solving it: relationships, trust, and agency-to-agency partnerships

Fjorge built a major engine by selling to creative agencies who needed strong engineering.

Examples Joe called out:

• Agency is over capacity → Fjorge fills the gap

• Agency is WordPress-only → client needs Drupal → Fjorge fills the capability gap

• Agency wants to design only → Fjorge handles development

Why it worked: agencies have project after project, which creates steadier demand than random one-off end clients.

4. What changes at 10 people, at 20, and after

Here’s the simple “growth evolution” Joe described:

• 0–10 people: word of mouth + fast quoting

• ~10–20: “account director” hybrid (sell + manage + PM)

• 20+: you need outbound + marketing + deliberate pipeline creation

And here’s his follow-up / relationship model:

• Don’t follow up with “any work for me?”

• Follow up with awareness + value, like:

  • “I’ll be in your city — where should I stay?”

  • “Here’s an article you’d like”

  • “Who should I meet while I’m there?”

  • Personal tie-ins (“how’d that soccer season go?”)

He also uses a podcast as a “relationship accelerator”:

• invite prospect as guest

• build trust over multiple touchpoints

• learn their pain points naturally

5. “Just checking in”

The biggest cringe habit he called out:

Transactional follow-up.

The “just checking in” / “any work for me” loop that makes people avoid you.

Fix: treat relationships like a bank account. Make deposits before you ever try to withdraw.

6. Buying decisions are emotional, and faster than you think

Joe’s view is that buying decisions are emotional and fast — people evaluate you subconsciously. That makes leadership’s job less about clever messaging and more about building real trust:

• show up in person sometimes

• be consistent

• be human

• stay top of mind without being needy

7. Selling to agencies and to end clients at the same time

Two big operational takeaways showed up:

• The company’s go-to-market focus matters. Trying to sell both “agency partner” and “direct end client” at the same time can dilute messaging and effort.

• Managed Services is a win-win or lose-lose: it feeds builds when you’re doing it well, but if service quality drops, it poisons future build opportunities too.

Notable Quotes

“Different things work at different times, different sizes, different strategies.”

“If you want to get the big stuff, you’ve got to do the small stuff.”

“People think they buy on paper… but they’re making buying decisions on emotions.”

“I’m not making referrals based on the agreement. I’m making referrals based on who will help them most.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 49: Weekly Client Calls, Referral Networks, and 15 Years of Retention

• Ep. 21: How a Video Agency Scaled on Retainers Without Losing Its Soul

• Ep. 26: How a Chamber of Commerce Lunch Turned 15 Attendees Into 4 Clients

Learn More / Get in Touch

Visit → https://fjorge.com

Podcast → Mind Your Own Marketing Business (Spotify + other platforms)

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Episode 39: How to Stay Relevant When Your Tech Stack Gets Commoditized

David Hoos

Behind the Agency Podcast with Hunter Jensen, Founder of Barefoot Solutions

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Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Hunter started as a self-taught dev, freelancing off Craigslist, then built an agency when he realized hours cap out.

• Barefoot’s motto: “Lean into the hard stuff” (regulated, complex, high-stakes builds).

• They’ve stayed relevant by riding 3–4 year tech waves: web → mobile → IoT/medical → blockchain → ML/AI.

• Hunter’s big idea: agencies stay relevant by either specializing or staying ahead of the next wave (Barefoot chose the second).

• AI is opening a brand-new market: “traditional businesses” that never would’ve bought custom software before.

• Practical AI wedge questions Hunter uses with CEOs:

  • “What would be valuable if you could predict it?”

  • “What paper-pushing could we automate now that LLMs exist?”

• Pipeline shift: cold outbound worked great in 2020–2022… then got flooded and stopped working.

• New growth engines that are working: in-person speaking, newsletter-driven small offers, AI-powered personalization, and referrals.

Does This Sound Familiar?

The work you built the shop on keeps getting cheaper. Clients who used to need a custom build can buy a platform now, and the ones who still call you want the same thing for less than last year.

You can feel the floor moving. What's harder is knowing whether to go narrower, go upmarket, or go somewhere new entirely.

Hunter Jensen has made that call four or five times. Barefoot has ridden web, then mobile, then connected devices and medical, then blockchain, then machine learning, and he says the waves run about 3 to 4 years apart.

So his motto is to lean into the hard stuff. Regulated work, complex work, high-stakes builds that don't get cheap quickly.

His framing of the choice is the useful part. An agency stays relevant one of two ways: specialize deeply, or stay ahead of the next wave. Barefoot picked the second, and he's candid that it's the more demanding of the two.

Now, he's also straight about what stopped working. Cold outbound was excellent in 2020 through 2022 and then the channel flooded. What's replaced it is speaking in person, a newsletter feeding small paid offers, and referrals.

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Meet the Guest

Hunter Jensen is the Founder of Barefoot Solutions, a custom software shop based in San Diego. They build complex, data-driven applications — especially in regulated or high-complexity environments (think SEC/FDA-level constraints).

Barefoot has worked across enterprise, startups, and mid-market, with recognizable names like Microsoft, Salesforce, Cisco, and projects like the IMAX website.

More recently, they’ve been deep in machine learning, predictive analytics, and generative AI, and Hunter spends a lot of time speaking, writing, and tinkering to stay ahead of the curve.

Episode Summary

1. From Craigslist PHP gigs to a real agency

Hunter’s origin story is classic “builder brain.”

He dropped out of a computer science program because it wasn’t teaching what he wanted (the internet was moving faster than the curriculum). So he went self-serve: library books + web programming + Craigslist gigs.

That paid tuition. Then after graduation he moved to San Diego, freelanced, had fun… and then had the moment most freelancers eventually have:

You can’t scale hours.

That realization pushed him into building a real business.

2. The main tension: generalist agencies get commoditized

Hunter laid it out pretty bluntly:

If you’re a generalist shop and you don’t evolve, you get eaten alive by:

• cheaper competitors

• DIY tools

• the market’s “good enough” options

So Barefoot made a choice that a lot of agencies say they want… but don’t actually commit to:

They stayed generalist but kept relevance by always moving toward what’s next.

3. Their unique way of solving it: “stay ahead of the wave”

Hunter sees two viable strategies for agencies:

1. Specialize (vertical or tech stack) and become the known expert

2. Stay ahead of new tech waves so you’re always in demand before it becomes normal

Barefoot chose #2.

And the key detail: staying ahead includes doing internal “bleeding edge” work that doesn’t make money right away, just so they’re positioned when the market hits the inflection point.

He described a predictable cycle:

• There’s a “world wakes up” moment (example: App Store launch)

• Then comes an education/strategy phase (“What’s our mobile strategy?” / “What’s our AI strategy?”)

• Then the wallets open and big implementation projects happen

He believes we’re moving out of the “AI proof-of-concept phase” and into the “real budgets, real projects” phase.

4. Two questions that get a CEO interested in AI

Hunter shared a few models that are super usable:

A) The “Two CEO Triggers” (for selling AI to normal businesses)

He asks CEOs questions that spark ideas instead of overwhelming them with tech talk:

• “What would be valuable if you could predict it? (and do you have historical data?)”

• “What paper-heavy process could we automate now that LLMs can reliably extract and transform info?”

It’s basically: “Where are you still doing 2020 work with 2026 tools?”

B) The “3-case-study rule” (for repositioning)

They don’t fully shift messaging until they have real proof.

Hunter likes to have 3 solid case studies in the new area before they overhaul brand and positioning around it.

That’s smart, because it avoids the trap of branding yourself as “the AI agency” before you’ve actually shipped AI work.

C) The “inflection-point positioning” play

Barefoot updates:

• website / messaging

• content strategy

• forward-facing positioning

…right when they’ve got proof and the market is starting to care.

5. Cold outbound worked until 2020, then the channel flooded

Hunter’s not afraid to say the quiet part out loud:

Cold outbound used to work. Then it got saturated post-2020 when everyone moved online.

They tried turning every knob and dial… and it still didn’t work like it used to.

His theory: digital channels got flooded, and it’s insanely hard to get above the noise.

So they’re leaning into what’s working now:

• in-person speaking (especially CEO groups)

• and smarter “small offers” instead of asking strangers for marriage on the first date

6. Founder energy opens the door on a new wave, then the team runs it

This part was subtle but important:

Hunter personally gets heavily involved in the first few projects in a new technology wave.

Why?

• to close them

• to make sure execution is solid

• to create the proof needed for the next stage (case studies + positioning)

After that, the team can run it.

Founder energy is used like a battering ram to open a new door — not to carry the whole business forever.

7. Why big deals never start with a Google search

Two big things stood out:

• Barefoot leans on referrals heavily because when the deal size gets big, nobody “just Googles a dev shop.”

• Hunter has leverage most boutique firms don’t: he sold controlling interest in 2019, and now has access to a parent company with ~1,500 engineers, which makes experimentation faster and lets them do highly technical lead-gen projects.

He gave a killer example:

They helped a marketing agency target plaintiff class action attorneys by pulling attorney info out of lawsuit filings (buried in huge PDFs) and generating personalized outreach at scale. The client had them turn it off after a week because they got too much business.

That’s the theme again: new tech turns “intern work” into automation.

Notable Quotes

“We lean into the hard stuff.”

“Agencies stay relevant in one of two ways: specialize… or stay ahead.”

“It’s time to re-examine your paper-pushing.”

“Nobody’s getting married on the first date.” (re: selling big projects via ads/outbound)

Related Episodes

• Ep. 12: Strategy Is the Only Thing That Cannot Be Commoditized

• Ep. 57: 25 Years of Agency Survival (What Actually Kept the Lights On)

• Ep. 42: How to Run an Agency for 20 Years Without Blowing It Up

Learn More / Get in Touch

Website → Barefoot Solutions

LinkedIn → Hunter Jensen (active and responsive to non-spam messages)

Want More Interviews Like This?

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