Behind the Agency

Episode 28: Why Referrals Beat Every Other Growth Channel (If You Track the Right Metrics)

David Hoos

Interview: How Jet Fuel Agency Scales Without Chasing Leads

Behind the Agency Podcast with Edwin Choi, Founder of Jet Fuel Agency

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Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Jetfuel.Agency was built by combining in-house growth experience with agency execution

• Edwin believes results are a distribution channel, not just an outcome

• The agency has intentionally narrowed its services to paid media + retention

• Their primary growth engine is still 100% referral-driven

• Edwin is aiming for 150 clients without outbound sales

• The business is run against four core metrics, not vanity KPIs

• Professional development is treated as a retention strategy, not a perk

• A great agency is built by protecting focus and investing in people

Does This Sound Familiar?

The service list grew because clients kept asking. Now some of those lines get all the attention and most of the revenue, and the rest quietly consume your team's best hours for very little.

Edwin Choi cut the other way. Jetfuel.Agency does paid media and retention, and that's it, on the view that you need to be world-class at a few things and let the rest fall away.

He'd earned that view before he started. Edwin spent 15 years in digital marketing, and he led the in-house team that took an ecommerce brand from $5M to $30M in four years.

So his growth model is the interesting part. The agency runs on referrals alone, and he's aiming for 150 clients with no outbound sales at all.

He picked that number because he heard another owner say they'd done it. His argument is that results are a channel in themselves.

Now, that only works if delivery holds. So he runs the business on four metrics instead of a dashboard, and treats training as a way to keep people rather than a perk. When people are growing, they tend to stay.

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Meet the Guest

Edwin Choi is the Founder of Jetfuel.Agency, a performance marketing agency helping e-commerce brands grow through paid social, paid search, and retention marketing.

With over 15 years in digital marketing, Edwin has worked agency-side, led in-house growth teams, and scaled an e-commerce business from $5M to $30M in annual revenue. Today, he applies that same speed and rigor across multiple client businesses through Jet Fuel.

Before founding Jet Fuel Agency, Edwin built deep experience in media buying, full-funnel marketing, and team leadership — experience that heavily shaped how he runs his agency today.

Episode Summary1. From reselling as a teen to building an agency

Edwin’s path into agency life started early. He’s always enjoyed selling — buying something for $1 and selling it for $3. That instinct carried through a three-part career:

• Agency employee

• In-house marketing leader

• Agency founder

The turning point came after scaling an in-house e-commerce team at speed.

“It felt like a game. We were learning, testing, and executing every day.”

Jet Fuel Agency was born from a simple question:

Can you recreate that level of momentum and learning across multiple companies?

2. The real challenge with starting an agency

Jet Fuel didn’t start from zero.

Edwin leveraged:

• A long-standing freelance network

• Prior agency and in-house relationships

• Due diligence work with venture capital firms

Those VC relationships, in particular, turned into early clients almost immediately.

“We didn’t start from square one.”

3. Why referrals still drive the business

While early outreach played a role, Edwin is clear about what actually compounds.

“When you have results, that’s almost a channel in itself.”

To this day, Jet Fuel’s primary source of new clients is referrals — driven by consistently strong work and word of mouth.

The goal?

150 clients, built entirely on referrals.

4. Focus beats flexibility

Jet Fuel originally offered more services, but Edwin learned quickly that profitability and sanity require restraint.

Today, the agency focuses on three core pillars:

• Paid social

• Paid search

• Email & SMS (retention)

Everything else is handled through partners.

“You need to be world-class at a few things and let everything else fall away.”

5. A simple framework for running the agency

Rather than chasing dozens of metrics, Edwin runs Jet Fuel against four core measurements:

1. Top-line revenue growth

2. Margins (EBITDA / efficiency)

3. Employee tenure

4. Client retention & NPS

These metrics create optionality — whether that leads to acquisition, a holding company, or a long-term lifestyle business.

6. Learning from past agency mistakes

One lesson Edwin carried forward from a prior agency role:

Over-expanding services creates inequality inside teams.

When a few services drive most revenue, other teams get neglected — leading to burnout and disengagement.

Jet Fuel is intentionally designed to avoid that dynamic by:

• Limiting service sprawl

• Investing in every team’s growth

• Making professional development a core priority

7. Why professional development isn’t optional

For Edwin, professional development solves two problems at once:

1. Client results — marketing changes constantly

2. Employee retention — people stay when they’re growing

“It’s not the perks. It’s not the office. It’s whether you’re helping people grow.”

Jet Fuel provides structure and support — but expects individuals to take ownership of their learning.

Notable Quotes

“Results are almost a channel in themselves.”

“You need to be world-class at a few things and let everything else fall away.”

“When people are growing, they’re generally happy.”

“If you focus on those four metrics, you create options.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 27: The 4-Direction Partner Framework That Turns 3 Deep Relationships Into a Referral Engine

• Ep. 49: Weekly Client Calls, Referral Networks, and 15 Years of Retention

• Ep. 5: Portfolios Beat Resumes

Learn More / Get in Touch

Visit → https://jetfuel.agency

LinkedIn → Search Edwin Choi

Also check out Agency Accountant → https://agencyaccountant.com

(Bookkeeping and finance services built specifically for agencies)

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Episode 27: The 4-Direction Partner Framework That Turns 3 Deep Relationships Into a Referral Engine

David Hoos

Interview: How Agencies Can Build a Predictable Referral Engine (Without Being Salesy)

Behind the Agency Podcast with Mike Wilner, Founder at Switchboard

Watch

Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Most agencies already believe in referrals — they just don’t treat them like a system.

• “Partnerships” feel formal, but referrals are partnerships whether you call them that or not.

• The fastest way to get referrals is to start making them, not asking for them.

• Affiliate-style referral programs fall flat for high-trust, high-ticket services.

• A small number of deep partners beats a giant list of inactive ones.

• Financial incentives don’t create trust — they make good partnerships sustainable.

• The best partners are people you’d happily refer business to first.

• Positioning yourself as a connector makes you the first call when clients have a problem.

Does This Sound Familiar?

You've got a dozen people you've swapped an introduction with at some point. Some of them sent you something once. Nothing about it is systematic, so when the pipeline gets thin you send a few hopeful messages and hope somebody remembers you.

So referrals stay the channel you rely on most and manage least. And the awkward part is that asking for one feels like begging, which means you mostly don't.

Mike Wilner built Switchboard because of that gap, and his fix inverts the usual advice. The firms that get the most referrals are the ones that start by making them. Being the first call when a client has a problem is worth more than being on somebody's partner page, even when the answer isn't you.

He's also clear about what doesn't work. Affiliate-style commission programs fall flat for high-trust, high-ticket services, because the money reads as a reason to doubt the recommendation. Incentives make a good partnership sustainable, they don't create one.

Now, the bit most agencies get backwards is volume. 3 active partnerships beat 100 dormant ones, so the work is depth with a few people rather than a longer list.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Mike Wilner is the founder of Switchboard, a software product that helps professional service firms manage referral partnerships intentionally. He works with agencies, consultants, and service providers who want to grow through relationships — without relying on luck, karma, or awkward asks.

Episode Summary1. From “Referral Karma” to Strategy

Most agency owners say referrals matter. But very few have a real strategy for them.

Mike pointed out that referrals are often treated like random acts of goodwill — something you hope shows up if you’re nice enough or patient enough. The problem? Hope isn’t a growth plan.

When you treat partnerships as a system instead of a vibe, things change fast.

2. The Real Pain: Transactional Thinking

The biggest thing holding partnerships back isn’t lack of interest — it’s mindset.

“Both sides are waiting for the other person to refer first… and then nothing happens.”

Agencies often approach partnerships like trades:

“You send me work, then I’ll send you work.”

That standoff kills momentum every time.

3. The Counterintuitive Fix: Go First

The partnerships that actually work all have one thing in common:

someone made the first referral.

Not a pitch.

Not an agreement.

Not a shared Google Doc.

An actual intro.

That single move flips the relationship from hypothetical to real.

4. The 4-Direction Partner Framework

Mike shared a simple mental model for finding good partners:

• Upstream – services clients need before you

• Downstream – services they need after you

• Upscale – same service, bigger scope or higher price

• Downscale – same service, smaller or more accessible

Once you see partnerships this way, you realize most of the right people are already in your network — Slack groups, LinkedIn, or even your existing clients.

5. The Big Mistake: Treating Referrals Like Affiliates

Scaled affiliate-style programs don’t work well for agencies.

Why?

Because agency referrals are high-trust decisions, not link clicks.

“Three active partners beat a hundred inactive ones every time.”

Depth beats breadth.

6. The Connector Mindset (and Why It Wins)

One of the most practical takeaways was how to reframe discovery calls.

Instead of leading with:

“Let me tell you about my services…”

Try:

“Even if I’m not the right fit, I may know someone who is.”

That small shift:

• Lowers sales pressure

• Builds trust fast

• Positions you as a strategic guide, not a vendor

Clients remember that.

7. Why Referral Fees Actually Matter

Referral incentives aren’t about getting rich.

They’re about sustainability.

Without them, people eventually feel awkward, resentful, or burned out from sending value one way. Aligned incentives keep good behavior going — without turning things into favors.

Notable Quotes

“The people who get the most referrals are the ones who start by making them.”

“Affiliate models don’t work for high-trust services.”

“Three active partnerships beat a hundred dormant ones.”

“Be the first call — even when the answer isn’t you.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 5: Portfolios Beat Resumes

• Ep. 19: How One Agency Nearly Killed Its Referral Engine by Rebranding Overnight

• Ep. 58: How a 4-Person Shopify Agency Builds a Partner Engine That Actually Pays Off

Learn More / Get in Touch

Website → https://tryswitchboard.io

LinkedIn → Search “Mike Wilner”

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Episode 26: How a Chamber of Commerce Lunch Turned 15 Attendees Into 4 Clients

David Hoos

Behind the Agency Podcast with Brien Gearin, Ricochet Digital Marketing

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Brien runs Ricochet Digital Marketing, focused mostly on home services, with some work for restaurants/bars/breweries (especially newsletter-related).

• Services span web dev, lead gen (Google Ads, Facebook ads), Google Business Profile, email, and even targeted direct mail.

• His first real growth spurt came from a simple move most agency owners overthink:

  • Join the local Chamber of Commerce

  • Run a Lunch & Learn

  • Teach, don’t pitch

  • Result: 15 attendees → 8 meetings → 4 clients

• The “secret sauce” wasn’t some fancy funnel. It was authority + trust, earned fast.

• His stance on presenting is worth stealing:

  • give away the “kitchen sink”

  • small business owners won’t implement anyway

  • they just need to trust you know what you’re doing

  • then make a soft offer at the end: free consult / coffee

• He started industry-agnostic and only recently started leaning into a niche.

  • Not because “niching is always best”

  • More because the niche kind of found him through real life + recurring patterns (home services needing better websites).

• Big belief: spending money on lead gen while your website sucks is like sending customers to a closed store.

• Brien’s bias: in-person relationships close and retain better (especially in Midwest markets).

• His most recent client came through referrals, still his #1 source.

  • But his “top 3” growth levers right now: networking, presentations, SEO/inbound.

• Honest founder moment: the biggest biz dev challenge isn’t strategy—it’s attention.

  • balancing client work

  • co-hosting a podcast (Millionaire University, ~600,000 people/month reach)

  • and the classic: shiny object syndrome

• On the long-term: he’s open to either building a “steady legacy business” or an eventual exit, depending on how life and opportunities shake out.

• His CTA is consistent and low-friction:

  • LinkedIn or email

  • free consult

  • “I’ll buy you coffee” vibe (even digitally)

Does This Sound Familiar?

Business development is the thing you do when client work lets you. Which means it happens in bursts, right after a scary month, and then stops the moment you get busy again.

You know that's backwards. But cold outreach makes you wince, content takes a year to pay off, and the invitations from your local Chamber have been sitting unopened in your inbox for months.

Brien Gearin opened one. He ran a Lunch and Learn for the local Chamber, taught the whole thing without pitching, and turned 15 people in a room into 8 meetings and 4 clients.

So his rule for the talk is to give away the kitchen sink. The owners in the room aren't going to implement it themselves, and they just need to believe you know how.

He's also honest about the part nobody fixes with a tactic. The real constraint on business development isn't strategy, it's attention, and he's juggling client work and a podcast alongside it. Naming that is more useful than another framework.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Brien Gearin is a direct-response marketer and growth advisor, and the guy behind Ricochet Digital Marketing.

If you stripped down his whole philosophy, it’s basically:

Get the fundamentals right.

Show up like a real human.

Stay in touch.

Don’t send paid traffic to garbage.

Which… honestly… would fix a lot of “marketing problems” in the small business world.

Episode Summary1) How Ricochet started (and what they actually do)

Brien started Ricochet about 7 years ago with a tight offer: Facebook Lead Gen ads for small local businesses.

He spotted a gap:

• massive platform

• cheap attention (at the time)

• local businesses not using it well (or at all)

Over time, Ricochet expanded into a fuller toolkit:

• web dev

• Google Ads + lead gen

• Google Business Profile management

• Facebook ads

• email marketing

• targeted direct mail

Not every client buys everything — they “pick and choose” based on need and budget.

2) The first clients: LinkedIn prospecting… then the Chamber talk that changed everything

Brien’s technical first client came from LinkedIn prospecting.

But the bigger early win was local networking.

He joined his Chamber of Commerce near Cincinnati. The Chamber president basically said:

“People ask about this stuff all the time, and we don’t have anyone to refer them to.”

So Brien did a Lunch & Learn:

• 15 business owners attended

• 8 meetings booked

• 4 clients closed

That’s a wildly good conversion rate, and it happened without any “funnel.”

Just showing up and being useful.

3) Presenting without being cringe: teach hard, pitch soft

This part was my favorite because it’s the opposite of what most people do.

Brien got coached to treat the talk like:

• education

• authority building

• trust building

Not a pitch-fest.

He basically gave away the “kitchen sink,” because:

• most local business owners won’t implement anyway

• but they will remember the person who made it make sense

Then he made one small offer at the end:

• shameless plug

• quick overview of services

• “If you don’t have time/desire/knowledge, I’ll buy you coffee and do a free consult.”

And it worked.

Practical takeaway:

If you ever get a speaking slot and you spend it pitching… you’re wasting it.

People don’t trust pitches.

They trust competence.

4) Niching down: the “riches are in the niches” myth (and why Brien’s take is healthier)

Brien’s honest here, and I respect it.

He’s not a religious zealot about niching.

He’s basically saying:

• I like working with good people

• I want long-term relationships

• if they’re cool and get marketing, I’m happy—even if they’re not perfectly in my niche

At the same time, home services started pulling him in because:

• he personally experienced the buying journey (stuff broke at home)

• he saw recurring patterns in what those businesses needed

And the big unlock was web dev.

He realized:

the website is the foundation

Running lead gen to a bad site is like:

“a closed storefront”

That analogy is so obvious… but tons of agencies still ignore it because they want to sell ads first.

5) In-person vs virtual: the trust multiplier

Brien’s a “shake hands” guy.

And he sees a real advantage with local clients:

• he can visit the office

• take them to lunch/beer

• do quarterly in-person check-ins

He also sees that prospects really value it:

“It’s great to talk to a marketing person who’s actually here.”

Now, you can absolutely sell and retain clients remotely. Brien agrees.

But his point is: if you can do in-person, it often accelerates trust.

6) The real retention lever: communication (and the dating analogy)

Brien hears the same complaint from prospects over and over:

• “I never saw ROI… or couldn’t track it.”

• “Nobody talked to me.”

• “I got passed to an account rep and never knew what was going on.”

So his differentiator is not just tactics—it’s staying in touch:

• check-in emails

• reporting when good things happen

• owning when bad things happen

• texting some clients weekly if they want high-touch

Then he drops the analogy:

If you go months without talking…

something’s wrong.

Same with clients. Same with dating.

It’s simple, but it’s real.

7) Biz dev today: referrals + networking + talks + inbound

His most recent client came through referral.

Referrals are still his #1 source, but he’s clear-eyed:

• referrals alone won’t grow the business as fast as he wants

So his top three focuses:

1. in-person networking (and online networking via masterminds)

2. presentations (still a go-to)

3. SEO / inbound (after rebuilding his website)

And he openly admits:

my biz dev could use improvement

That honesty is refreshing because most agency owners pretend they’re “too busy” when really they’re just not being deliberate.

8) The tension: client work vs biz dev vs… a whole second business

In addition to Ricochet, Brien is also involved in Millionaire University, where he co-hosts a podcast reaching about 600,000 people/month.

That’s huge reach, but it’s also time.

And this is where he says the quiet part out loud:

Entrepreneurs get shiny object syndrome.

Even when the “objects” are good.

So sometimes biz dev gets left behind—not because you don’t know what to do, but because you’re juggling too many plates.

9) Future: exit vs legacy business (he’s open)

Brien goes back and forth:

• build a steady business that can run a long time

• or grow it into something sellable in 5–10 years

He frames the reality of selling an agency pretty plainly:

• you’re largely selling the client book

• and maybe the team/system that keeps it running

No urgent plan to sell soon, but he’s open depending on what opportunity shows up.

Notable Quotes / Moments

• “Do not look at this as a pitch… it’s an opportunity to educate and position yourself as the authority.”

• “It’s hard to run lead gen to what’s essentially the equivalent of a closed storefront.”

• “I’m a marketing company guy, but really, at heart, I’m a customer experience guy.”

• “It’s kind of like dating… if you go months without talking, something’s wrong.”

• “Truth serum… shiny object syndrome affects just about every entrepreneur.”

Connect with Brien

• LinkedIn (he’s active and easy to reach)

• Email:[email protected]

He also offered a free consultation (and will “digitally buy you coffee”).

Related Episodes

• Ep. 15: Your Best Thinking Is Invisible If You Never Hit Publish

• Ep. 31: Why "Always Be Closing" Is Killing Your Agency Pipeline

• Ep. 27: The 4-Direction Partner Framework That Turns 3 Deep Relationships Into a Referral Engine

Want More Interviews Like This?

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Episode 25: One-Page Proposals, 4-Day Weeks, and a 90% Faster Close Process

David Hoos

Interview: Travis McAshan on building a purpose-led agency without burning out

Behind the Agency Podcast with Travis McAshan, Founder & CEO of Glide Design Agency (Austin, TX)

Watch

Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Glide started the way a lot of real agencies start: panic + passion (Travis had negative money in his bank account and needed to make rent).

• Travis’s biggest “early mistake” wasn’t strategy — it was staying stuck as the do-everything founder until he learned to replace himself role-by-role (E-Myth style).

• He ran Glide with contractors only from 2003 to 2019 — then realized a “real company” needs people who are shoulder-to-shoulder, not a floating freelance bench.

• The shift to employees wasn’t just operational, it was moral: he didn’t like the idea that contractors helped build the agency but got zero long-term upside.

• Glide rolled out the 4-day workweek (32 hours as full-time). Profitability dipped at first, so they had to get way more intentional and efficient.

• They became a Certified B Corp (2023) and committed to “prove it” moves like giving 5% of gross revenue to vetted nonprofits.

• Travis said their marketing has a gap: they built an affinity (we want purpose-led clients) but haven’t fully named the expertise (a branded, specialized approach/framework).

• Sales breakthrough: Win Without Pitching training changed everything—proposals went from 20–30 pages to one page with 3 options, time spent dropped ~10x, close rate up ~3x (his words).

Does This Sound Familiar?

You spent two days on a proposal. Twenty-odd pages, scoped properly and priced properly.

The prospect opened it, scrolled to the number, and went quiet. Then you did the same thing again the following week.

Meanwhile the team works five days, and roughly one of those days goes to meetings, status updates and admin nobody would pay for. You've known that for years. Fixing it means changing how the company runs, and the company is busy.

Travis McAshan started Glide Design in 2003 with negative $200 in the bank and ran it on contractors only until 2019. But the change that moved the numbers was the smallest one.

Proposals went from twenty or thirty pages to a single page with three options. That cut his proposal time by about 90% and roughly tripled his close rate.

Now the week is 32 hours as full-time. Profit dipped before it recovered, which is what forced the efficiency a four-day week usually gets credited with creating. Glide became a certified B Corp in 2023 and gives away 5% of gross revenue.

And Travis is honest about the piece he still hasn't solved. Glide has named what it believes in and hasn't yet named what it's expert at, which is a gap plenty of purpose-led agencies will recognize.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Travis McAshan is the Founder & CEO of Glide Design Agency in Austin, Texas. He’s been running Glide since 2003, after a startup he co-founded shut down unexpectedly while he was literally driving across the country.

Glide is known for building digital experiences (websites, strategy, design) and for running the company differently: purpose-led, people-first, and willing to make bold structural bets like the four-day week.

Episode Summary1. The origin story: “Necessity + passion”

Travis’s agency didn’t start from some perfect plan.

His startup (Pixana) died. He found out while driving across the country. When he got home, he had negative $200 in his bank account.

So he did what a lot of founders do:

• borrowed money from his mom

• got internet (a cable modem)

• called everyone he knew

• sold whatever he could (“stick figures for $25” energy)

The deeper thread though is he’d wanted an agency forever—he had “companies” as a kid and bought the Glide domain long before he used it.

2. The main tension: success that still burns you out

This part hit.

In 2015, Travis was so burned out he was ready to shut down Glide and become a high school football coach.

He wasn’t failing. He just felt like the work was repetitive and empty:

“Make great websites, get results, make clients happy”… and still miserable.

That’s what pushed him into the “why” journey (Simon Sinek). He landed on a simple personal purpose:

• help people

• spend time with people he loves

And then he turned that into company mandates:

• work-life balance (as a defense against overworking)

• purpose-led work (so the output matters beyond “a nice website”)

3. Their unique way of solving it: prove purpose with structure

A lot of agencies say they’re purpose-led.

Travis wanted Glide to prove it.

So they did two big structural moves:

1) Certified B Corp (2023)

He described it like “a journey up a mountain.” Tons of policy work, accountability, standards.

2) Impact business models

• Design to Give: commit 5% of gross revenue to vetted nonprofits/charities (he notes that’s a meaningful chunk of profit in agency math).

• Supporting Purpose-Driven Enterprises: a 10-year goal to shift Glide’s revenue so 75% comes from purpose-led orgs (B Corps, NGOs, public benefit corps, minority/women-owned, etc.).

That’s the “walk the talk” part.

4. Replace yourself one box at a time, and never fix expectations by email

Travis dropped a few that are super usable:

A. E-Myth “replace yourself”

• make an org chart

• put your name in every box

• replace boxes one at a time as you grow

He replaced himself first in design because it was painful and unsustainable.

B. Client satisfaction = expectation management

His relationship recipe (business, marriage, friendships) was basically:

1. Set clear expectations

2. Make sure everyone agrees

3. Deliver faithfully

4. When life happens and expectations break → communicate and reset

He said unmet expectations are the root of most conflict.

C. “Don’t solve conflict in email”

If expectations are off, get on a call. Face-to-face if possible.

He claimed communication is “like 85%” of client satisfaction.

D. Super Communicators idea (Duhigg)

Sometimes the client doesn’t want a fix—they want to be heard. Not every upset call is a “what are we going to do” conversation.

5. A real company built on contractors, and death by proposal

Two big ones:

1) Building a “real company” on contractors only

He did it from 2003–2019 and regrets thinking he could build something lasting that way.

Not because contractors are bad—because the business lacks shared purpose and people don’t get upside.

He basically said: you need some folks with skin in the game.

2) Death-by-proposal in sales

The classic agency move: 20–30 page proposals filled with free strategy.

He called out how much time that burns and how it lowers the power dynamic.

6. Four kids, no martyrdom, and the expertise question he’s still answering

This was quietly a leadership episode.

Travis is the founder, but he’s not romantic about martyrdom.

He’s trying to build a company that supports a full life:

• being a husband

• being a dad (he has 4 kids)

• not building a business that requires 60-hour weeks

He also openly said he’s working through his own “expertise” question (inspired by David C. Baker’s thinking): what are the repeatable insights Glide can own, name, and sell?

That’s founder work.

7. The four-day week: what dipped first, and what it forced

The most concrete “scaling” piece was the four-day workweek.

He said:

• profitability and billable hours dipped at first

• they had to get way more efficient

• but it became the most loved benefit by far

He framed it like: someday we’ll look back at 40-hour weeks like we look back at smoking.

Notable Quotes

“One of my favorite definitions of an expert is someone who’s failed in every possible way in a narrow field.”

“If you really want to build a lasting company… you cannot do that off the back of contractors.”

“It should be one page. If it’s an unpaid proposal, it should be one page with three options.”

“If there are unmet expectations, you are not solving that in an email.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 32: Why This Agency CEO Caps Every Week at 40 Hours

• Ep. 60: The Collective Model (and Why This Founder Stopped Hiring Full-Time)

• Ep. 7: Profit Is Where the Real Work Is

Learn More / Get in Touch

Visit → glidedesign.com

Connect with Travis → LinkedIn (Travis McAshan, DM him)

He also invited people to reach out if they want to dig into:

• 4-day workweek

• defining core values

• EOS at Glide

• purpose-led agency ops

• positioning / business strategy

Want More Interviews Like This?

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Episode 24: Why 50/50 Partnerships Fail Without a 15-Year Plan

David Hoos

Interview: From Burnout to Balance: How Wizardly Built a Sustainable Agency

Behind the Agency Podcast with Meg Schlabs, Co-Founder at Wizardly

Watch

Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Burnout—not ambition—was the real trigger behind starting Wizardly.

• A 50/50 partnership without a shared long-term plan creates friction fast.

• Doing “more of the same” work after launching an agency compounds chaos.

• Clear 5–10–15 year planning is the difference between urgency and leadership.

• Referrals beat everything else for Wizardly’s growth right now.

• Community-driven branding gets better client buy-in than “big reveal” launches.

• Problem-solving beats rigid packages when budgets are tight.

• Retention is mostly communication, visibility, and treating adults like adults.

Does This Sound Familiar?

You and your partner split it 50/50 and the first year was easy, because there was nothing big enough to disagree about. Then a real decision arrives, about money or hiring or what the agency is even for, and you discover you never actually agreed.

Meg Schlabs had worked with her co-founder for over 12 years before they launched Wizardly in 2016, so this isn't a story about picking the wrong person. It's about what a partnership needs that goodwill doesn't supply.

Her answer is a 5, 10 and 15 year plan, and she's blunt about the cost of not having one. Without it, you're stuck in the urgent forever, which is a fair description of most agency weeks.

So the plan isn't a forecast. It's the thing that lets you say no to work that pays this quarter and pulls you somewhere neither of you wants to be in year seven.

And two small mechanics from this one are worth stealing. Their referral program pays 5% of referred work, capped at $2,500, so it reads as a thank-you rather than a commission scheme.

Her line on retention is the shortest version of account management I've heard. If you did the job and didn't tell the client, you didn't really do the job.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Meg Schlabs is the Co-Founder of Wizardly, a branding and design agency that helps growing teams clarify their brand and execute design work without drama. Based in Charleston, South Carolina, Meg and her partner Josh officially launched Wizardly in 2016 after years of working together. Today, they support dozens of retainer clients with a people-first, problem-solving approach to design.

Before Wizardly, Meg spent years inside high-pressure agency environments—experiences that directly shaped how she now builds teams, partnerships, and client relationships.

Episode Summary1. From overload to ownership

Wizardly didn’t start as a big vision—it started as survival. Meg and Josh were drowning in work, saying yes too often, and realizing their careers were incompatible with family life.

“The workload just became crushing… and we didn’t want that kind of life.”

Starting an agency felt like a way to add more hands. What they didn’t realize? Running a business adds a different kind of work entirely.

2. The hidden danger of skipping alignment

One of Meg’s biggest regrets: not defining the company they wanted to build before building it.

They skipped mission, vision, positioning, and long-term goals—the same work they do for clients every day. The result? Confusion, miscommunication, and a near-breaking point in their partnership during 2020.

3. Resetting the partnership

The turning point came when Meg and Josh stepped away, worked with coaches, and separately wrote down their 5-year visions.

They matched—exactly.

That alignment became the filter for every decision after. If something didn’t support that future, it didn’t get attention.

4. Leadership vs. production (they’re not the same job)

Meg made a sharp distinction many founders miss: doing client work and leading a company are different roles with different questions.

Leadership means:

• Planning

• Hiring intentionally

• Positioning the brand

• Saying no to distractions

Without this separation, burnout is inevitable.

5. How Wizardly actually grows

Meg is candid: they’re still learning marketing. But a few things are working well:

• A structured referral program (5% up to $2,500)

• Consistent LinkedIn outreach

• SEO and blogging

• Experimenting with quizzes

Referrals remain the strongest channel by far.

6. Their real differentiator: community + problem-solving

Wizardly doesn’t sell “great design.” That’s table stakes.

Instead, they:

• Involve clients deeply in the branding process to build buy-in

• Stay engaged post-launch through subscriptions

• Solve the actual problem—even if it’s smaller than the ideal project

“If a Canva one-pager is the real problem today, we’ll solve that.”

That mindset builds trust—and long-term relationships.

7. Retention is visibility, not magic

Wizardly keeps 40–50 retainer clients happy by:

• Weekly reminders of completed work

• Slack access for real-time collaboration

• Proactive check-ins after internal client meetings

If clients don’t see the value, it might as well not exist.

8. Building a humane team

Wizardly’s culture is built around trust and flexibility:

• Remote, async work

• Heavy use of contractors to absorb spikes

• Strong support for working parents

• Explicit permission to say no

• Small, frequent appreciation (gifts, recognition)

Meg summed it up simply: treat people the way you always wanted to be treated.

Notable Quotes

“Doing good work is baseline. It’s not a differentiator anymore.”

“If you’re not planning 5–10 years out, you’re stuck in the urgent forever.”

“If you did your job but didn’t tell your client, you didn’t really do your job.”

“Problem-solving matters more than protecting your price list.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 32: Why This Agency CEO Caps Every Week at 40 Hours

• Ep. 42: How to Run an Agency for 20 Years Without Blowing It Up

• Ep. 62: Pay People Like Adults

Learn More / Get in Touch

Website → https://wizardly.co

LinkedIn → https://linkedin.com/in/meg-schlabs

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Episode 23: LinkedIn Live as a BD Engine for Relationship-Driven Agencies

David Hoos

Interview: How LinkedIn Live Can Turn Relationship-Building Into a Repeatable Agency Growth System

Behind the Agency Podcast with Joseph Lewin, Creator of Sell Through Social

Watch

Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Most agencies say they grow through relationships… then try to “scale” with transactional outbound and wonder why it feels gross.

• Joe’s core claim: in B2B, relationships drive deals (faster cycles, longer retention, better referrals).

• LinkedIn Live is the “cut the fat” version of content-based networking: you can start next week, not in 6–9 months.

• The fastest early-stage “ROI” is more conversations, not perfect repurposing.

• If you approach it like a pitch fest, it dies. If you approach it like “make the guest look good,” it works.

• Great interview questions do 3 things: unique perspective + real stories + practical steps.

• Introverts often love this format because it’s one-on-one, purposeful, and avoids awkward networking small talk.

• A surprisingly powerful move: send clips to the guest so they share it internally (instant exposure you can’t buy with ads).

• Don’t over-plan. Launch messy, get feedback from the market, and improve as you go.

Does This Sound Familiar?

Every good client you've ever had came from a relationship. A referral, a warm introduction, a conversation that started because somebody was curious rather than because you were selling.

Then you try to grow that on purpose, and the only tools on offer are sequences and lists. So business development starts feeling like a vending machine. Put in outreach, pull out meetings, act surprised when people treat you like a machine back.

Joe runs Sell Through Social and picked a format that keeps the relationship in the middle of it. LinkedIn Live, with a guest you'd actually want to know, where the entire job is making that person look good.

Now, the appeal for a busy founder is the start-up cost. Joe says most clients take 3 months to launch a podcast, and often 6 to 9 months before an episode goes live. You can run a LinkedIn Live next week.

And the early return is simply more conversations with the right people, not a content library.

And he'd tell you to stop planning. Most people stall on the show name and the branding. Launch it messy, send the guest a clip so they share it internally, and let the market tell you what to fix.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Joseph (Joe) runs Sell Through Social, a system built for agencies and B2B service firms that want to grow through relationships without relying on “spray and pray” lead gen.

He’s done marketing in small business, worked in-house at a B2B engineering software company, then moved into the agency world helping $20M–$100M companies launch shows, build relationships, and create pipeline through social.

His through-line: the tactics change, but the real unlock is the same—relationships.

Episode Summary1. The misconception: “More leads = more growth”

Joe’s main beef is with the standard B2B growth story:

“If we can just generate more leads, we’ll grow exponentially—so let’s scale cold email / cold calling.”

He’s not saying those tactics never work. He’s saying agencies often abandon the thing that actually built the business in the first place:

• relationships

• referrals

• events

• “real conversations” with real people

And then they call that “scaling.”

It’s like ditching the thing that feeds you… because it’s not trendy.

2. The real pattern he sees in the data

Joe’s worked inside client accounts from small businesses up to $100M orgs, and his consistent observation is:

Most consulting firms and agencies grow through relationships and referrals.

Not because it’s cute. Because it creates:

• faster trust

• faster deal velocity

• longer client retention

• better warm intros

In other words, relationships don’t just “feel better.” They usually work better.

3. His origin story: everything kept pointing back to relationships

Joe connected dots across marketing disciplines that people usually treat as purely tactical:

• PR works best when you know reporters and they trust you.

• SEO is heavily influenced by backlinks—often earned through relationships.

He kept hearing “relationships” at the end of every “tactical” training.

That led him to start interviewing subject matter experts on video as part of content creation… which led him to content-based networking… which led him to launching his own podcast (The Strategic Marketer)… which literally helped him interview his future boss.

One of my favorite parts of this episode is how un-mystical this was. It wasn’t a lightning bolt. It was slow, steady iteration. Tortoise energy.

4. Why LinkedIn Live: “Cut out the fat”

Joe made a really clean argument:

Traditional podcasts have a huge barrier to entry:

• show name + premise + branding

• tech setup

• consistent cadence

• months of prep

He said most clients take 3 months minimum to launch a podcast, and more often 6–9 months before episodes even go live.

Then you’re still months away from results.

So his move was: treat LinkedIn Live as the fast-start version.

You can:

• invite someone you already kinda know

• put it on the calendar for next week

• make a simple graphic in Canva

• go live

And in the same time someone spends “planning a podcast,” you could do 20–30 interviews and let the market tell you what the show should become.

5. Mindset: it’s biz dev… but it can’t feel like pitching

Joe framed this as a business development tool, not a branding vanity project.

But he also warned: if you do it to pitch people, it flops.

The reason it works is you make it about the other person:

• “Come on and share your expertise.”

• “Help the audience learn from you.”

• “Let’s shine a light on what you’re doing.”

People like feeling valued. (Shocking, I know.)

But the key is: no bait-and-switch.

He used a “go-giver” vibe: detach from the outcome, genuinely serve the guest, and the opportunities tend to flow naturally if you’re intentional about who you invite.

6. Tactical advice: do less, ship faster

Joe’s honest shift was great here:

He used to be conservative and want everything planned.

Then he shared a painful lesson: he once built a full course + membership site (3 months of work)… and nobody bought it.

The takeaway: planning without market validation is how you waste time and money.

So his advice now is basically:

• use StreamYard (or any tool)

• DM a guest

• write a few questions

• hit “go”

Your first time might take 2 hours. After a few reps, it’s easier.

7. Repurposing: don’t let it steal the main prize (conversations)

I loved how practical this was.

If you’re a solo founder with no time and you need sales now:

Don’t repurpose. Do more interviews.

Because the biggest early return is the conversations and relationships—not turning one interview into 17 pieces of content.

But if you have budget or a team, repurposing can be huge:

• 3–5 clips per interview (and potentially more)

• tools like Descript, Opus Clip, etc.

Best repurposing move he mentioned:

Send clips to the guest.

If the guest shares it, you can get exposure inside their company (and network) that you’d struggle to buy with ads.

8. Introverts: this is secretly an introvert-friendly system

Joe shared a note from someone who’s an introvert and said this approach is not just effective—it’s fun.

His reasoning made a ton of sense:

• it’s one-on-one

• you handpick who you talk to

• you skip awkward networking events

• you have a clear purpose for the conversation

It’s “networking,” but with guardrails and fewer weird vibes.

9. Question sets: the cheat code to not having boring interviews

Joe said question sets are what separates great interviews from brutal ones.

His 3 goals for questions:

1. get a unique perspective

2. get stories from the trenches

3. get practical steps for the audience

And he gave 4 ways to build a question set:

• One question set to rule them all (same core questions, different answers)

• Quick question set (skim their content + draft questions)

• Collaborative (ask what they want to cover, then draft)

• Pre-interview (best content + deeper relationship, but more time)

He also gave a great host tip: you don’t have to be silent the whole time. Good follow-ups and short anecdotes make the convo feel human.

Notable Quotes

“Most consulting companies and agencies grow through relationships and referrals.”

“People get caught up in… ‘What am I going to call my show?’ … and it slows them down.”

“You can legitimately today launch a show that you do the first episode next week.”

“If you don’t have time and you need to make sales right now, don’t repurpose.”

“The primary point… is to make that other person look good, feel good.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 8: Your Podcast Is a Sales Tool (Not a Content Strategy)

• Ep. 1: You Do Not Need More Tactics

• Ep. 59: Kill the Dead-End Thank You Page (and 5X Your Webinar Conversions)

Learn More / Get in Touch

• Website: sellthroughsocial.com

• LinkedIn: DM Joe

Offer mentioned:

• Launch Your Show in 30 Days cohort (Joe mentioned $497, starting August 5 noted in the transcript)

• 1:1 support starting at $1,500/month

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Episode 22: From Copywriter to Agency Founder

David Hoos

Episode 22 | Behind the Agency Podcast with Mark Goren, Founder of 10-20 Marketing

“Referrals saved us. But they also made us lazy.”

Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Agencies don't fail because of bad work. They fail because of weak relationships and inconsistent pipelines.

• Mark didn't start as a "founder type." He came up as a business-minded copywriter and grew into leadership over time.

• Referrals can carry you for years. They're not a real growth strategy when the market tightens.

• "Set-and-forget" services create predictable revenue, but only if you actively protect and communicate their value.

• Senior-only teams win trust fast. They still need structure, process, and follow-through.

• Content doesn't always create leads. But it closes deals by validating credibility.

• Retention (clients and team) comes down to communication, honesty, and human connection.

Does this sound familiar?

If your agency has been growing on referrals but you can't see what's coming next, that's usually a positioning problem. Not a sales problem.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Mark Goren Founder, 10-20 Marketing Full-service digital marketing (media, SEO, local marketing) Senior-only team. Nearly 30 years in the industry. Previously at Publicis and FCB.

Visit 10-20 Marketing → · Connect on LinkedIn → · [email protected]

Mark has been in the business nearly 30 years, including stints at Publicis and FCB, and 10-20 Marketing runs a senior-only team. So when he says relationship-first is a strategy rather than a slogan, he is describing what kept a set-and-forget client base intact through a tightening market, not a theory he has read about.

Episode Summary1. A copywriter's path into agency leadership

Mark didn't stumble into marketing. He trained for it. After studying copywriting at Humber College, he moved through agencies and consulting roles before eventually spinning out what became 10-20 Marketing.

What made him different early on? He approached copywriting like a business problem, not an art project.

2. The hidden risk of "things are going well"

For years, 10-20 grew steadily. Revenue was up. Clients stuck around. Life was good.

Then the economy tightened.

Mark realized something uncomfortable: they had relied too heavily on long-standing, low-touch clients as a revenue buffer without actively reinforcing value.

"I knew I needed to give those clients more attention. I just didn't do it soon enough."

3. Relationship-first as a real strategy (not a slogan)

Mark's edge isn't a flashy framework. It's how his team shows up.

Clients routinely say they like working with them. They feel heard. They feel cared for. That trust makes sales easier and forgiveness higher when things get tough.

Warmth isn't a soft skill here. It's a competitive advantage.

4. What actually differentiates 10-20 Marketing

• A senior-only team. No bait-and-switch.

• Deep experience across channels.

• Strong communicators who genuinely care.

• Content that validates credibility during buying decisions.

Mark's take: differentiation doesn't always live on your homepage. Sometimes it only shows up once you're in the room.

5. The referral trap (and why most agencies fall into it)

Referrals worked for a long time. But Mark is blunt:

"I would not recommend anyone copy us."

Without a proactive pipeline, agencies become fragile. Community helped here. Especially connecting with peers through Bureau of Digital, where Mark realized everyone struggles with this. Even the good ones.

6. Hiring and retention lessons from a small senior team

Mark prefers trust over micromanagement. But he learned that trust still needs oversight.

Recent wins came from:

• Clear role definition

• Radical honesty during hiring

• Staying closer to the work to understand real capacity needs

Hiring experienced people and actually listening to them has paid off.

7. Why copywriting still matters (more than ever)

The tools changed. Measurement exploded. But the core didn't.

Copywriting is still about selling. Now with receipts.

Mark's background helps him bridge the creative and business sides of agency life, reducing friction most teams never resolve.

Notable Quotes

“It’s going to take five years to know what your business really is. And honestly—it might take longer.”

“Referrals saved us. But they also made us lazy.”

“Content doesn’t always bring leads—but it absolutely helps close deals.”

“I don’t follow up with clients because I’m a salesperson. I do it because I actually care.”

Related Episodes

If this one resonated, you'll like these:

• Partnerships Aren't Luck — Mike Willner (Switchboard) on building a referral engine that doesn't depend on hope.

• Don't Treat Bizdev Like a Vending Machine — Joseph Lewin on why authenticity beats automation in outbound.

• The Fan Mail Playbook — Warren Wilansky (Plank) on how one fan email landed a 10-year client.

Learn More / Get in Touch

Visit → 10-twenty.com Email → [email protected] LinkedIn → Mark Goren

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Subscribe to the show on YouTube →

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Your Next Step

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Episode 21: How a Video Agency Scaled on Retainers Without Losing Its Soul

David Hoos

Interview: Kyle Bush on Scaling a Video Agency with Profit, Process, and “Make It Cool to Care” Culture

Behind the Agency Podcast with Kyle Bush, Founder & CEO of Cumberland Creative (Nashville-based video production agency)

Watch

Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Kyle didn’t “dream of owning an agency.” He fell into it through skate videos → business dev → jump ship in 7 days.

• Their early edge was simple but rare: one partner sells + runs the business, the other delivers. That breaks the feast/famine loop.

• They scaled headcount based on retainer revenue, not big project spikes. Freelancers absorbed the project swings.

• A painful lesson: when a key contact changes, treat it like a brand-new client. Rebuild trust from zero.

• Another lesson: never respond emotionally (especially about contracts). Cool off, check facts, then reply.

• Video is naturally project-based, but Kyle believes retainers are less stressful and more “build-a-real-business” friendly.

• Their value prop: trim the fat, obsess over client experience, and make budgets go further.

• Hiring: early on, hire for character, teach skills. Later, you need character + skills (harder).

• Culture stopped being cheesy when they implemented an operating system + values and actually enforced them.

• Kyle rejects the “agencies can’t be profitable” mindset. He thinks stability and a good lifestyle are totally possible.

Does This Sound Familiar?

The big project lands and you hire. The project wraps and the invoice stops, so the people you just hired are now a fixed cost against nothing. You go find another big project.

You've ridden that loop long enough to know it isn't a sales problem. It's a structure problem. And it's brutal between about $500K and $2M, where you're too big to freelance it and too small to absorb a quiet month.

Kyle Bush built Cumberland Creative so the loop couldn't start. He grew headcount and expenses only against what retainer revenue could cover, and let freelancers absorb the project spikes. Video is about as project-shaped as work gets, and he still made retainers the base the company stands on.

Two other things he says are worth the listen. When your main contact at a client changes jobs, treat the account as brand new and rebuild trust from zero, because most churn hides there. And never answer a contract dispute while anyone is still angry.

So this one is for you if your headcount is sized to your best quarter rather than your quietest one.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Kyle Bush is the founder and CEO of Cumberland Creative, a Nashville-based video production agency.

His story starts in a place you don’t hear every day: skateboarding. In skate culture, videos are everything. Kyle started filming skate videos as a kid, fell in love with the craft, then later stumbled into agency life through a Lyft passenger connection that landed him an internship at a top Nashville ad agency.

From there, he ended up in business development at a video company, saw the writing on the wall, and… launched Cumberland Creative within 7 days.

Episode Summary

1. From skate videos to “oh… this can be a career”

Kyle’s path wasn’t “I want to be a founder.” It was more like:

• loved making skate videos

• got older, kept the video obsession

• felt trapped by the idea of office life

• got a lucky connection into an agency internship

• saw video shoots happening in a professional setting

• light bulb: this is a real career

That’s a pattern I see a lot: people don’t pick the agency world… the agency world kind of recruits them.

2. The 7-day jump: why they could pull it off

They weren’t starting from scratch skill-wise. Kyle could sell and concept. His partner could direct, shoot, and edit. They already had a working rhythm from the previous company.

They also had a clear early rule:

“We’re going to stay busy—even if we’re working for free.”

And a second rule that a lot of creatives don’t internalize until pain forces it:

“We’re going to be profitable and scale profitably.”

Kyle mentioned reading Rich Dad Poor Dad around that time, and it shaped their mindset.

3. How they avoided the classic agency feast/famine trap

This is one of the most practical parts of the convo.

They only grew overhead and headcount based on retainer revenue, not project revenue.

• Retainers = the “bedrock”

• Projects = bonus volume

• Freelancers = elasticity to handle spikes

That meant they could sell strategically without panic. No “we just landed a big project, hire fast” followed by “oh no, it ended, layoffs.”

Analogy: It’s like only signing a lease you can afford on your salary, not on your best month’s commission check.

4. A mistake that still haunts him (and the fix is useful for everyone)

Kyle lost his favorite client after a marketing director change—not because the work got worse, but because he treated it like “business as usual.”

Two lessons:

• When a key stakeholder changes, treat it like a new client. Re-onboard them. Re-earn trust.

• Never respond while you’re emotionally lit up. He replied quickly, assumed contract terms without checking, and it rubbed the new director the wrong way.

That part hit because it’s so human. Everyone’s “professional” until it’s their favorite client and the email lands at the wrong moment.

5. Value prop: trim the fat + obsess over client experience

Kyle’s take on the video production industry is blunt: there’s a lot of ego and fluff.

Cumberland Creative tries to win by:

• giving “white glove” service

• taking stress off the client

• making the budget go further

• cutting the BS out of production

Their current positioning line (his words, basically):

“the only production partner obsessed with our client experience and success.”

6. Retainers in a project-based industry: two viable paths

Kyle laid out the two roads video agencies tend to take:

Path A: high-end project-based production house

• small core team

• scale up with contractors per shoot

• less overhead

• can be very profitable

• but often harder to “step away” / less sellable as an owner-agnostic business

Path B: retainer-based production partner

• package ongoing content needs

• build a team + leadership structure

• more predictable revenue

• less stressful

• typically aimed at companies with recurring content needs (not Super Bowl ad buyers)

Kyle’s opinion: for most agencies in the $500k–$2M range, trying to survive purely project-based can be brutal unless you’re already “world class” with constant inbound.

7. Sales and marketing: relationships still win, inbound isn’t enough

Kyle is honest here: they’ve been strong at sales, less confident in marketing.

What worked:

• trade shows

• niche networking

• proactive outreach with creative ideas

• “more hands you shake, more deals you make”

They also ran PPC/Google Ads successfully around 2018–2019, but saw performance dip more recently (he mentioned changes tied to Google’s AI shift).

Big takeaway: even when inbound worked, it still wasn’t enough to carry the whole pipeline. Their engine is mostly:

• repeat customers

• referrals

8. Hiring and retention: character first, then level up to character + skill

Kyle’s approach early was:

• hire from people you know

• clients, freelancers, interns

• hire for character, teach skills

They’ve had low churn, but he’s now feeling the next-level challenge:

• you eventually need both the right character and the right skill set

• recruiting becomes a real craft

Retention comes down to culture—and he gave a great example: culture changed when they implemented an operating system, mission/vision/values, and held people accountable to it.

He referenced Unreasonable Hospitality and the idea of:

“Make it cool to care.”

And crucially: don’t just say values—hire and fire by them.

9. The contrarian mindset Kyle rejects

This was one of my favorite endings. Kyle basically said:

A lot of agency owners normalize break-even survival like it’s the best you can do.

He rejects that completely.

He believes you can build an agency that:

• makes real profit

• supports a good lifestyle

• isn’t soul-sucking

• and still does great work

I’m with him on that. “This business is supposed to be miserable” is one of the most damaging stories agencies tell themselves.

Notable Quotes

“Treat them like a new client and start the process from ground zero.”

“Never respond to a situation whenever there’s heightened emotion.”

“We only grew headcount and expenses based on what retainer revenue could cover.”

“Make it cool to care.”

“I wholeheartedly reject the mindset that creative agencies can’t be profitable.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 40: How a 65-Person Agency Broke Through the 20-Person Wall

• Ep. 41: Why Deal Flow Matters More Than Recurring Revenue

• Ep. 7: Profit Is Where the Real Work Is

Learn More / Get in Touch

Email → [email protected](note: spelled from audio; double-check before publishing)

Cumberland Creative → (search “Cumberland Creative Nashville”)

Kyle also mentioned he’s building:

• a community for video agency owners

• coaching for video agencies in the $500k–$2M range

Want More Interviews Like This?

Subscribe to the show on YouTube →

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Episode 20: Why This Agency Ditched the Big Reveal and Lets Clients Co-Create Instead

David Hoos

Behind the Agency Podcast with JP Holecka, CEO + Founder of Power Shifter

Watch

Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Power Shifter was built because JP was tired of the “agency knows best” vibe when he was on a big-brand client team.

• Their core philosophy: “Direct to Expert” — agency experts + client experts co-create together (no gatekeepers, no bottlenecks).

• JP hates “ta-da decks” (big reveal presentations). He prefers early, often, and sometimes ugly so teams can test + iterate.

• One of his biggest lessons: fail faster and pull the plug sooner—small failures beat near-catastrophic ones (2018 was a wake-up call).

• They tried a more traditional client-services layer (because consultants told them to) and it broke relationships + team morale fast. Going back to co-creation fixed it.

• Specialization matters, but JP challenges the “everyone must pick a vertical” advice: vertical focus can increase talent churn due to repetitive work.

• As referrals get less reliable, JP’s pushing into multi-channel marketing: targeted outbound, paid search, SEO/content, and a podcast.

• Retention comes from trust + empathy + proactive onboarding (ex: Loom “what to expect” videos before workshops, primers for tools like Miro).

Does This Sound Familiar?

The project disappears into your shop for six weeks and comes back as a presentation. You rehearse it, then you reveal it.

And somewhere in the room a client who hasn't been asked anything since the kickoff starts finding things they'd have said in week two.

Now you're eating a round of revisions you already priced, on a timeline you already promised. It looks like a scoping failure. It's really a structure that keeps the client out of the room until it's expensive to change their mind.

JP Holecka ran Power Shifter on referrals and good work for 15 years before rebuilding how the work actually gets made. He put clients directly with the experts doing the thinking, on a regular cadence, and cut the big reveal out entirely.

That sounds like a small process change and it isn't. It changes who the client is buying, because they stop buying a deck from an agency and start buying the people.

So the trade he names openly is that your specialists now have to be client-ready. That's a hiring decision more than a workflow one.

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Meet the Guest

JP Holecka is the CEO and Founder of Power Shifter, a digital transformation agency that builds digital products (web apps, mobile apps, and websites). JP’s team has worked with major enterprise brands (including top global apparel brands), and they’ve become known for helping teams who’ve been burned by past agency experiences.

JP built Power Shifter after spending time on a large telecom brand team as the client — and deciding there had to be a better way for agencies to work with clients.

Episode Summary

1. From frustrated client to agency founder

JP didn’t start Power Shifter because he “always wanted an agency.”

He started it because he’d lived the client-side chaos: big agencies, big decks, big reveals… and a coin-flip chance the “big idea” actually fit.

So he built the kind of agency he wished he could hire: created by clients, for clients — “all the best of an agency, none of the worst.”

2. The core tension: agencies over-index on certainty

JP calls out a pattern that’s painfully common:

Agencies act like the hero, show up with answers, and don’t tap into the expertise sitting right across the table — the people living the business every day.

“We got this. We know you’re busy. We got this.”

But the client is busy and they’re often the true subject matter expert. Ignoring that is how you get misalignment, churn, and failed work.

3. Their unique approach: co-creation over big reveals

Power Shifter avoids the “ta-da moment” style of delivery.

Instead, they work early and often and sometimes ugly — which is basically saying:

• show progress sooner

• get feedback faster

• iterate together

• reduce the risk of betting everything on a single reveal

JP ties this directly to longer client relationships because they “co-exist” with clients instead of operating like a detached vendor.

4. Direct to expert: co-creation, no gatekeepers, no big reveal

Here’s the simple structure JP kept coming back to:

• Agency created by clients, for clients

• Direct-to-Expert

  • Agency experts + client experts co-create

  • Remove gatekeepers and bottlenecks

• Avoid “ta-da decks”

  • Replace with iterative work + fast feedback loops

• No “we do everything” promises

  • Specialize (they chose product/tech specialty)

  • Partner transparently for adjacent needs (content, performance, analytics) instead of pretending

He also shared a practical positioning insight: tech-stack specialization can make your market too small, while vertical specialization can create talent boredom + churn.

5. Waiting too long to fail, and the client-services layer that backfired

Two big ones:

• Not getting comfortable with failure

  • JP admits it took him too long to internalize “fail fast”

  • Waiting too long turns small failures into near-catastrophic ones

• Letting “traditional client services” create a wall

  • They tried a heavier client-services layer (consultant advice)

  • Within months: relationships and team morale dropped

  • Fix: go back to direct-to-expert and remove the bottlenecks

6. Positioning, client experience, and life after referral-only growth

JP didn’t say “founders should disappear.”

He’s still deeply involved in:

• shaping positioning

• designing the client experience

• leading the shift from referral-only growth into multi-channel acquisition

• setting cultural principles that keep churn low and standards high

7. A repeatable hiring process, and treating Glassdoor like Yelp

JP’s take on hiring was refreshingly un-sexy (which is usually a good sign):

• Use a repeatable hiring process (he recommends the book Who: The A Method for Hiring / “Hiring A Players” concept)

• Build a culture people want to join

• Treat Glassdoor like Yelp: you may hate it, but candidates use it

• Client-facing autonomy helps retention:

  • when juniors see their ideas make it into real work, they stick around

Retention isn’t just perks. It’s letting people do meaningful work with real ownership.

Notable Quotes

“Early and often and sometimes ugly.”

“Avoid ta-da moments at all costs.”

“There’s bad money and good money.”

“When we sign a client, our number one job is to get trust going.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 37: Why Clients Rejected the Self-Serve Model and Paid More for a Human

• Ep. 50: Building Software With Clients, Not For Them

• Ep. 10: If You Market to Everybody, You Market to No One

Learn More / Get in Touch

LinkedIn → JP Holecka (publishing regularly)

(JP referenced his LinkedIn profile as the best place to connect.)

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Episode 19: How One Agency Nearly Killed Its Referral Engine by Rebranding Overnight

David Hoos

Interview: Laura Boyer on Niching Into Industrial Marketing, Trade Shows That Actually Work, and Building a Human Agency Culture

Haus Advisors Live with Laura Boyer, Founder of Black Bean Industrial Marketing (B2B agency based in British Columbia, serving manufacturing, mining, chemical, and other industrial sectors)

Watch

Prefer the highlights? Key takeaways and summary below.

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

• Laura started her agency out of frustration: agencies mistreating teams and not being accountable to clients.

• She chose industrial because it’s ignored by most agencies (fewer competitors) and the communication style is more direct.

• They niched down using a simple audit: impact + profit + fun (inspired by Win Without Pitching).

• Biggest mistake: in January 2021, she rebranded and repositioned overnight during COVID… and basically cut off referrals.

• Reality check: SEO and marketing take time. If you kill referrals instantly, you can create an 8-month scramble.

• Best growth channel for them: trade shows (plus co-branded webinars with industry associations).

• SEO doesn’t work well in her niche because decision-makers often don’t know “industrial marketing agency” is a thing, so they don’t search for it.

• Trade show playbook: pick “human-sized” events, pre-post on LinkedIn, get attendee lists, book off-floor meetups, follow up nightly.

• Retention playbook: keep experience consistent from sales → delivery, have a strong PM, and actually become real humans with clients.

• Talent playbook: flat-ish hierarchy, generous PTO, output-based work, no weekend email, and forced office closures when people won’t take vacation.

Does This Sound Familiar?

You've finally decided what the agency is for. So you plan the rebrand, rewrite the site, change the messaging, and go live with all of it at once, because half-committing feels like the thing that got you stuck.

Laura Boyer did exactly that in January 2021 and it cost her. The referral network that had been feeding her didn't recognize the new thing, stopped sending work, and she spent about 8 months scrambling to fill the gap.

Her correction is one sentence and it applies to any repositioning you're sitting on. You can make the decision without implementing it overnight.

She got to industrial marketing through a simple audit rather than a positioning workshop. Score the work you already have on impact, profit and fun, then go where all three line up.

And what she found there is worth knowing before you copy anyone's channel plan. Search doesn't work well for her. Her buyers don't know an industrial marketing agency is a thing they could look for.

So trade shows carry the pipeline instead, along with co-branded webinars run with industry groups. Her rule is to pick human-sized events and do the real work off the floor.

Take the free Bottleneck Score →

Meet the Guest

Laura Boyer is the founder of Black Bean Industrial Marketing, a B2B agency based in British Columbia.

She’s lived all over (including 10–15 years in China) and brings a very European/direct communication style. She even joked that her Canadian team made her add “two exclamation points per email” to soften her tone — which honestly is the most relatable “international team” detail I’ve heard in a while.

Black Bean focuses on industries that often have a brand perception problem or are generally underserved by modern marketing:

manufacturing, mining, chemical, and adjacent industrial categories.

Episode Summary

1. Why Laura started an agency at all

This wasn’t the usual “freedom and lifestyle” pitch.

Laura’s motivation was more like:

• she watched agencies treat teams like disposable parts

• she watched agencies under-deliver and over-promise

• she wanted to create a better experience for everyone in the orbit: team members, clients, partners, vendors

That’s a strong founding “why,” because it’s not about ego. It’s about standards.

2. Why industrial marketing (and why it fits her personality)

Laura’s take is straightforward:

• industrial is ignored by most agencies → fewer competitors

• decision makers are direct, practical, less “marketing theater”

• it matches her Swiss/German/Dutch style: less small talk, more truth

I’ve seen this play out: the right niche isn’t just “where money is.” It’s also where your default personality doesn’t get punished.

3. How they picked the niche: impact + profit + fun

They did a client audit (inspired by Win Without Pitching):

• Where did we make an impact?

• Where did we make money?

• Where did we actually enjoy the work?

Patterns emerged around “blue collar” industries and longer B2B sales cycles—work where they could embed deeper and act like a real growth partner.

4. The big mistake: flipping the switch overnight (January 2021)

This is the part that should be printed on a warning label.

Laura repositioned and rebranded overnight in January 2021.

Two problems hit at the same time:

• COVID timing (Canada/US border stayed closed until November 2021)

• Canadian manufacturers couldn’t travel → marketing budgets froze

And the “hidden” killer:

• she killed their referral power in one move

• while SEO/inbound takes time to ramp

Result: about 8 months of pain until marketing started producing inbound.

Misconception worth challenging:

A lot of founders think “once I decide my niche, I need to rebrand right now.”

Laura’s lesson is the opposite: you can decide quickly, but implement gradually.

Analogy: it’s like swapping engines mid-flight because you’re excited about the new one. Even if the new engine is better, the timing can still crash the plane.

5. What actually grows their business: trade shows + association webinars

For Black Bean, SEO isn’t the hero channel. Why?

Because many prospects don’t wake up thinking:

“I should Google ‘industrial marketing agency.’”

They don’t search for what they don’t know exists.

So they lean on:

• trade shows (primary)

• webinars with industry associations (secondary but powerful)

Associations already have trust with members. Black Bean “borrows” that trust by co-branding and teaching.

6. Laura’s trade show playbook (super practical)

This was gold. Here’s the distilled version:

• Pick events where your buyer is actually present (not just engineers/sales reps)

• Avoid massive events where everyone’s busy and no one talks

• Aim for “human-sized” events: not 6,000 people, not 50 people in a sad ballroom

• Start posting early on LinkedIn + tag the show

• If you can get attendee lists, reach out ahead of time and book coffee/drinks

• The best conversations happen off the floor: hotel bar, breakfast, ferry, hallway moments

• Follow up daily (she did 30 minutes each night), don’t let leads rot

• Lead with value: send benchmarks, reports, useful resources

On booth vs sponsor vs attend:

• they’ve only attended so far

• next step: exhibit

• sponsor only if it includes a speaking slot (otherwise it’s just expensive logo placement)

7. Client retention: “continue as you started”

Laura’s retention philosophy is simple:

If the client loves the founder-led sales experience… and then gets handed off to a totally different vibe… that drop-off kills trust.

So they keep the experience consistent and lean on:

• a strong project manager who flags issues early

• delight + fun + friendship (within reason)

• a small client roster (around 12 max) so relationships stay real

• low-pressure check-ins (Friday afternoon calls) where clients will tell you what’s wrong

8. Sales mindset: business development, not chasing

Laura frames it as:

• build relationships

• help people in their role

• don’t chase aggressively

• position the agency as an equal partner, not an order-taker

Her line basically was:

“If you want an order-taker, go to Upwork.”

That’s a strong boundary—and boundaries tend to attract better-fit clients.

9. Talent: the agency as a “good place to be a human”

Laura’s talent strategy is very “European workplace values,” in the best way:

• flat-ish hierarchy, everyone has a voice

• generous PTO (and she’s forced office closures because people weren’t taking time off)

• output-based work (results > hours)

• summer hours (Friday afternoons off)

• no weekend email unless real emergency

• she doesn’t email the team on weekends (TikToks don’t count 😂)

That stuff isn’t fluff. It’s a retention engine.

Notable Quotes

“I decided to flip the switch… overnight. That was the wrong thing to do.”

“You can make a decision. Doesn’t mean you have to implement it overnight.”

“SEO doesn’t really work for us… they don’t know such an agency exists.”

“The most meaningful connections happen off the trade show floor.”

“Continue as you started.”

Related Episodes

• Ep. 29: What Happens When Your Inbound Pipeline Disappears Overnight

• Ep. 14: Specializing Is Scary. Not Specializing Is Worse.

• Ep. 44: Sequencing Your Way Past the $2M Referral Ceiling

Learn More / Get in Touch

LinkedIn → Laura Boyer

Email → [email protected]

Website → blackbeanmarketing.com

Instagram → Black Bean Marketing (she sometimes answers DMs)

Want More Interviews Like This?

Subscribe to the show on YouTube →

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If this resonates, here's your next step.

Pick the path that fits where you are right now. No pitch deck. No pressure. Just clarity.

Start with the free Bottleneck Score →

See how the Program works →