Liminality is about existing in transition, where uncertainty and ambiguity dominate. Innovation, at its core, is a liminal activity—organisations step away from established norms to explore new futures. But how comfortable are businesses with this uncertainty?

In this episode, Richard Walzer joins us to discuss:

* Why innovation is inherently liminal—leaving the known to explore possible futures

* The pendulum swing of innovation—why businesses drift between embracing and resisting change

* How future-back thinking can help leaders avoid stagnation

* The tension between Perform (stability) and Transform (innovation) in organizations

* What Apple, Pixar, and Xerox PARC teach us about the importance of balance

* How leaders can become more comfortable with uncertainty instead of reacting to it

As Martin notes: “Liminality is going to be a very constant feature.” If businesses continue to treat change as an on/off switch, are they setting themselves up for failure?

Episode Highlights

02:00 — Innovation as a liminal state—stepping away from the known

06:00 — Why businesses get stuck between the past and the future

10:00 — The pendulum swing of change—why organizations abandon innovation

15:00 — The 70/20/10 rule for balancing efficiency and transformation

22:00 — What Future-Back Thinking means for long-term resilience

35:00 — Why leadership struggles with ambiguity and liminal decision-making

50:00 — Why balance is about perpetual motion, not stability

💡 “The biggest challenge we have with businesses is they are generally laser-focused on what we are doing today.” – Richard WalzerFollow Richard on LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-walzer-25140715

Stay Connected:

- Visit www.beingliminal.com for more episodes and to learn about the podcast.

- Share your feedback, suggest future guests, or pose questions for upcoming episodes by reaching out through the website.

- Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review Being Liminal on your favourite podcast platform!

A new format that we are trying out where one of us shares a shorter deep dive on a current topic - we are interested in your responses and thoughts on the topics in these shorter episodes and we will pick up on the topic together in our longer format sessions.

In this episode of Being Liminal, I (Martin) explore the growing intersection of AI and creativity. The rise of AI-generated content is both fascinating and unsettling—offering new possibilities but also raising difficult questions about what it means to create, connect, and be human.

One example that caught my attention is Virtually Parkinson—a digital recreation of the legendary broadcaster Michael Parkinson. It’s a remarkable technical achievement, yet something about it feels… incomplete. The rhythm, the unpredictability, the nuance of human conversation—missing. And that gap made me wonder:

🔹 Are we heading towards a world where AI-generated content replaces human creativity?🔹 If creativity is about connection, what happens when future generations only experience art, music, and storytelling created by machines?🔹 How do we balance the commercial drivers of AI with the deeper cultural and human impact of creative work?

Key Themes in This Episode

✅ AI’s impact on creative industries—opportunities and risks✅ The blurred line between augmentation and replacement of human creativity✅ The business incentives behind AI-driven content and what they mean for the future✅ The potential long-term consequences on human connection and cultural identity

Why This Matters

Creative work isn’t just about output—it shapes our society, challenges our thinking, and helps us make sense of the world. If we don’t recognise and measure its true value, we risk losing something irreplaceable.

Join the Conversation

What do you think—are we at risk of losing the human essence of creativity? Or will AI simply become another tool for expression? Let’s discuss. Share your thoughts in the comments or reach out on LinkedIn.

Longwave Thinking – Thriving in Complex Systems

Part 3 of 3 exploring three levels of disruption from Design Team to Wider Systems

Introduction

In the final episode of our three-part series, we move beyond organisations to the broader systems that shape them. We discuss the extended cycles of disruption impacting society and business alike. From climate change to economic upheaval, we explore how leaders can adapt to and thrive in a world where uncertainty is the new normal.

Key Takeaways

• Limits vs. Limitless Growth: The clash between systemic sustainability and business incentives.

• Navigating Disruption: Understanding and operating within prolonged instability.

• Complex Systems Thinking: Recognizing interdependencies and building resilience.

• Thriving in Liminality: Shifting mindsets to embrace opportunity amidst constraints.

Stay Connected:

- Visit www.beingliminal.com for more episodes and to learn about the podcast.

- Share your feedback, suggest future guests, or pose questions for upcoming episodes by reaching out through the website.

- Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review Being Liminal on your favourite podcast platform!

Navigating Transformation – Organizational Blind Spots

Part 2 of 3 exploring three levels of disruption from Design Team to Wider Systems

Introduction

In part two of our series, we zoom out to explore transformation at the organisational level. We discuss why businesses often repeat past mistakes, how continuous improvement and transformation intertwine, and the systemic blind spots that hinder meaningful change. If your organization struggles with delivering transformation that sticks, this episode is for you.

Key Takeaways

• Beyond Buzzwords: What transformation really means and how it differs from continuous improvement.

• Systemic Failures: Why organizations fail to learn from past transformations.

• Illusions of Control: The ripple effects of isolated decision-making.

• Balancing Acts: The tension between short-term wins and long-term foundations for change.

Stay Connected:

- Visit www.beingliminal.com for more episodes and to learn about the podcast.

- Share your feedback, suggest future guests, or pose questions for upcoming episodes by reaching out through the website.

- Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review Being Liminal on your favourite podcast platform!

Design's Woes Are a Symptom of Larger Business Challenges

Part 1 of 3 exploring three levels of disruption from Design Team to Wider Sytems

Introduction:

In the first episode of this three-part series of Being Liminal, we begin at the team level, exploring why design often feels undervalued within organisations. We unpack how design’s challenges, from production-focused roles to mismatched values, reflect larger organisational struggles. If you’ve ever wondered why design sometimes feels like it’s stuck in a cycle of frustration, this episode is the perfect starting point.

Key Takeaways:

- Shifting Value of Design: Businesses are redefining the value of design, focusing more on production efficiency and less on strategic vision.

- Leadership Changes: High-profile design leaders are leaving traditional roles, signaling shifts in organisational priorities.

- Design as Part of the Production Chain: The integration of design into delivery models reflects a broader trend of aligning design efforts with measurable business outcomes.

- Value Communication Gaps: Misaligned language and expectations between design teams and other business functions, especially around Values and what constitutes Value - exacerbate challenges.

- A New Role for Designers: Designers must adapt by understanding business priorities and collaborating more effectively across disciplines.

Stay Connected:

- Visit www.beingliminal.com for more episodes and to learn about the podcast.

- Share your feedback, suggest future guests, or pose questions for upcoming episodes by reaching out through the website.

- Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review Being Liminal on your favourite podcast platform!

Joe Macleod: Endineering - Designing Ends

This episode was recorded at the end of 2023 just before we took a hiatus in publishing. It is as relevant now as it was then but you may find references to current events of 2023. Our apologies but we did have some sound issues which we weren’t able to rectify - it doesn’t alter the content but you will hear a few seeming glitches in the matrix :-)

Introduction:

In this episode of Being Liminal, we are joined by Joe Macleod, author of Ends and Endineering. Together, we delve into the fascinating and often overlooked world of designing for endings. Joe shares insights on how businesses and consumers can rethink their relationship with product lifecycles, focusing on creating meaningful and sustainable endings. From circularity to corporate responsibility, this conversation explores how endings can drive innovation, transform industries and connect across different levels of system thinking. We particularly like how the consideration of Ends challenges standard Business and Product Model operating systems.

Key Takeaways:

• The Art of Ending: Businesses are great at onboarding customers but often fail to design meaningful offboarding experiences, missing opportunities for loyalty and brand equity.

• Consumer Responsibility vs. Corporate Accountability: Joe highlights how companies subordinate the responsibility of product endings to consumers, creating challenges in recycling and waste management.

• Circularity and Innovation: Examples from companies like Patagonia and Fairphone illustrate the power of integrating sustainability and endings into design processes.

• Cultural Perspectives on Endings: Western consumerism’s disconnect from natural cycles contrasts with traditions in cultures like Japan, where endings are honored.

• Future of Leadership: Understanding the impact that not addressing Ends is having, systemically in our world critically challenges business and institutional leadership to collaborate at a systems level to address shared challenges like sustainability.

Guest Information:

Joe Macleod is the founder of AndEnd and a pioneer in the field of end-focused design. As the author of Ends and Endineering, Joe’s work challenges traditional views on consumption, encouraging businesses to think beyond product lifecycles. His expertise has influenced global brands and sparked important conversations on sustainability and responsibility in design.

Ends ebook

https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/744267

25% off discount code: NCKEV

Endineering ebook

https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/1116883

25% off discount code: NCKEV

Endineering training course. Starts Jan 14th.

https://learn.endineering.co/courses/endineering-course-cohort-11-starts-Jan-14th

25% off discount code: 25offendscohort

Stay Connected:

• Visit Being Liminal for past episodes, guest bios, and insights.

• Connect with Joe Macleod and explore his work on AndEnd.

- Share your feedback, suggest future guests, or pose questions for upcoming episodes by reaching out through the website.

• Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast to help others find us!

Ben Reason, one of the early pioneers of Service Design and co-founder of the boundary pushing agency Livework joins Martin and Brian for a thoughtful discussion on navigating the liminal spaces and the systemic changes that are shaping our world as we know it.  Ben's thought-leadership on designing in the Anthropocene was the stimulus for recording this conversation but it builds on the work of many other thinkers in this space.We challenge the allure of scale, examining the benefits of diversity and decentralization over a singular homogeneous approach to moving society forward. Ben references the current state of disruption - such as Florida's housing crisis and California's recurring wildfires - and the role of technology in scaling alternative systems while we also explore the advantages of devolved and decentralised power highlighting the political and human factors that drive change and the current systems that may stifle it.The conversation also spotlights the evolution of design and its profound impact on companies today. From exploring the digital mindset and the emergence of in-house design to the geopolitical influences that shape design practices, our conversation covers an array of topics - all of which are linked when you zoom out from the detail. Finally, we investigate the challenges of designing in a more life-centered way and how design can serve as an instrument in addressing these challenges.  We hope you enjoy this reflective conversation with Ben and find some useful and interesting jumping off points for your own exploration of Liminal thinking.

Livework: https://liveworkstudio.com/

Ben on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/breasy/

Design for the Anthropocene:https://www.slideshare.net/Livework/design-for-the-anthropocene-252901562

Being LiminalIs a podcast about the changing nature of Leadership in Business Transformation. Brian and Martin explore the mindset and skills currently missing in Business Leadership of Transformation that when present contribute to the 30% success rate of Large-Scale Business Transformation and Change.The podcast explores Systems and Design Thinking as a necessary approach to leading through the Liminal State that is a Transformation programme. Each episode is either a research interview with a Guest Expert or a working discussion session between the hosts Martin Dowson and Brian Hoadely as they develop the content that will form their new book: Being Liminal. This podcast is your opportunity to eavesdrop on their research and writing process.

Podcast Website: www.beingliminal.com

Apple:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/being-liminal/id1690994247

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7aJYpbWWZ85SBt27pfUgDo

Martin Dowson on LinkedIn

Brian Hoadley on LinkedIn

In this episode Brian and Martin are in conversation with Bethany Jarroussié. Bethany is on the design leadership team at BP and her career as a design leader has seen her   take on distinctly non-design type activities.  It's a conversation that covers, how, if we're honest about the nature of   transformation, it can be very unpredictable, and with that comes a need to create psychological safety for teams. There are great examples of leaders who created the environments in which it's okay to learn while doing with the inevitable discomfort and at times crashes that can come  with this. You'll hear about Bethany's own journey into the world of work, which she describes  as not traditional.  She reflects on how that has had an impact on her as a leader and her leadership style, and her support for and the importance of social mobility. For those of you are following along with other episodes, you'll find a connection here between some of what Ola Gwozdz discusses,  That the leaders that will be able to take us through the nature of the transformations that are ahead of us - will have  had experiences themselves of having to deal with their own personal liminality.You'll find that Bethany draws deeply on this in nuanced conversation with deeply personal perspective on leadership. Bethany on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bethanyjarroussie

Being Liminal Is a podcast about the changing nature of Leadership in Business Transformation. Brian and Martin explore the mindset and skills currently missing in Business Leadership of Transformation that when present contribute to the 30% success rate of Large-Scale Business Transformation and Change.The podcast explores Systems and Design Thinking as a necessary approach to leading through the Liminal State that is a Transformation programme. Each episode is either a research interview with a Guest Expert or a working discussion session between the hosts Martin Dowson and Brian Hoadely as they develop the content that will form their new book: Liminal Leaders. This podcast is your opportunity to eavesdrop on their research and writing process.

Podcast Website: www.beingliminal.com

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/being-liminal/id1690994247

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7aJYpbWWZ85SBt27pfUgDo

Martin Dowson on LinkedIn

Brian Hoadley on LinkedIn

In this episode Brian and I are in conversation with Ola Gwozdz, a listener who reached out to share her perspective and we realised we just had to bring into our exploration.  Ola helps us delve into the intricacies of identity, power dynamics, and the transformative potential of liminal spaces. 

She describes herself as a Data Philosopher, a concept and articulation I find fascinating – using data not just as raw information but a medium or lens to understand and interpret deeper societal and human issues, behaviours and global societal shifts.  She philosophises about the implications, meanings and narratives that data can reveal. 

We discuss the challenges posed by some of those global shifts like AI and climate change, Ola reflects on the feelings of lost control experienced by many in today's rapidly changing landscape. Yet, amidst the complexities, she finds a glimmer of hope in the quiet voices championing new ways of thinking. she emphasizes the significance of timing in the emergence of new ideas and the role of identity in various communities 

Our conversation also touches on the irony for her and for Brian & I of exploring liminal spaces, noting how such exploration can turn our own personal journey into a reflection of those very spaces. 

This conversation really digs into the changing nature of leadership and the power of liminality – we’re really looking forward to hearing what you got out of this conversation… Links:Ola Gwozdz on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/olagwozdz/

Being Liminal

Is a podcast about the changing nature of Leadership in Business Transformation. Brian and Martin explore the mindset and skills currently missing in Business Leadership of Transformation that when present contribute to the 30% success rate of Large-Scale Business Transformation and Change.The podcast explores Systems and Design Thinking as a necessary approach to leading through the Liminal State that is a Transformation programme. Each episode is either a research interview with a Guest Expert or a working discussion session between the hosts Martin Dowson and Brian Hoadley as they develop the content that will form their new book: Being Liminal. This podcast is your opportunity to eavesdrop on their research and writing process.

Podcast Website: www.beingliminal.com

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/being-liminal/id1690994247

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7aJYpbWWZ85SBt27pfUgDo

Martin Dowson on LinkedIn

Brian Hoadley on LinkedIn

Do you ever wonder how your organization can embrace change and thrive in the face of uncertainty? Join us on a journey into the world of regenerative design and leadership with our guest, Andy Thornton, the Head of Regenerative Design at the RSA - The Royal Society of Arts, Commerce, and Manufacturing. We explore design and systems thinking, discuss the importance of courage in leadership, and peel back the layers of an ever-evolving organisational landscape. Andy's expertise paints a fresh and crucial perspective on these subject matters, which is pushing the boundaries of what Brian and I are exploring in our research for Liminal Leaders.Our conversation takes us through some of the intricacies of systems thinking and its pivotal role in driving paradigm shifts. Andy references Donella Meadows' leverage points and discusses how to effectively intervene in a system for maximum impact. Andy highlights how the RSA has molded its vision through research, influential connections, and experimentation, and how design thinking can guide us through the uncertain waters of change. We dive into the challenge of getting people to leap into the unknown and how design thinking can be instrumental in navigating this complexity. As we journey further, we dissect the role and evolution of design throughout history, its impact on business and society, and its potential in shaping ethical outcomes. The conversation opens up discussions on the challenges and opportunities in regenerative business, and how design can be used to alter narratives for a more prospering society. This episode concludes with some thought-provoking discussions on the importance of leadership in driving change and stepping into the unknown. So, gear up for an enlightening discourse on regenerative business models and systems thinking that promises to challenge and stretch your perspective on leadership and design.

Being LiminalIs a podcast about the changing nature of Leadership in Business Transformation. Brian and Martin explore the mindset and skills currently missing in Business Leadership of Transformation that when present contribute to the 30% success rate of Large-Scale Business Transformation and Change.The podcast explores Systems and Design Thinking as a necessary approach to leading through the Liminal State that is a Transformation programme. Each episode is either a research interview with a Guest Expert or a working discussion session between the hosts Martin Dowson and Brian Hoadely as they develop the content that will form their new book: Being Liminal. This podcast is your opportunity to eavesdrop on their research and writing process.

Podcast Website: www.beingliminal.com

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/being-liminal/id1690994247

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7aJYpbWWZ85SBt27pfUgDo?si=1ffd9afda4594020

Martin Dowson on LinkedIn

Brian Hoadley on LinkedIn