Better Words

Rebecca Lim is a writer, illustrator, editor and lawyer. She is the author of over twenty books and has been nominated for multiple awards. She is  a co-founder of the Voices from the Intersection initiative to support emerging young adult and children's authors and illustrators who are First Nations, People of Colour, LGBTIQA+ or living with disability, and is a co-editor of Meet Me at the Intersection, a groundbreaking anthology of YA #OwnVoice memoir, poetry and fiction. Today, we are discussing her latest novel for younger readers, Tiger Daughter. 

Our interview begins at 26 minutes.

Mini book club: The Burning by Laura Bates

We both loved this novel, but it left us feeling so angry at the state of the world and the work we still have to do in dismantling rape culture. It weaves a historical tale of witch-burning with a compelling contemporary story about a young woman at the centre of a revenge porn attack that disrupts her entire life. 

Michelle mentions the Everyone's Invited initiative, which has gained widespread media attention in the UK this week. It is a space for school students to report instances of harassment and abuse in UK schools, with over 11,000 reports submitted at the time of posting. Read testimonies of survivors here. 

In this interview, we chat about:

• How her daughter’s English reading list sparked Rebecca’s desire to write Tiger Daughter
• Exploring the migrant experience of learning the English language and a young friendship in the novel
• Why Tiger Daughter is one of Rebecca’s most personal novels and why she wanted to explore certain cultural parenting styles
• Multi-layered storytelling in children’s fiction and why Rebecca believes it’s never too early to talk about painful subjects with readers
• How Rebecca’s skills as a lawyer have translated to her writing career
• The Voices from the Intersection initiative and the Meet Me at the Intersection collection
   

Books and other things mentioned

• The Men Who Hate Women by Laura Bates
• Asking For It by Louise O’Neill
• You’re Wrong About (podcast)

Follow Rebecca on Instagram @rebeccalim_writer

Follow us on Instagram @betterwordspod

Tiger Daughter is available now in Australia. It will be available in the UK in June.

Michelle and Caitlin received PR copies of Tiger Daughter from Allen & Unwin. 

Leanne Hall is an author of and specialist in young adult and children’s fiction. Her debut novel, This Is Shyness, won the Text Prize and was followed by a sequel, Queen of the Night. Her novel for younger readers, Iris and the Tiger, won the Patricia Wrightson Prize for Children’s Literature at the 2017 NSW Premier’s Literary Awards. This week we're diving into her beautiful and haunting YA novel, The Gaps. 

Just a note a warning before listening:  This episode deals with discussions of violent crime against women. It was recorded in late February 2021, before Sarah Everard's abduction and murder in London. Some of the discussions may be triggering and if you'd like to skip straight to the writing chat, skip ahead to 49 minutes. 

Our interview starts at 25 minutes. 

Read Michelle's article on how seasonally living changed her perceptions of living in the moment. 

Caitlin recommends:

Moxie (movie)

A fun movie about teen girls smashing the patriarch brought to us by Amy Poehler. Caitlin hasn't read the YA book of the same name, but we've both heard brilliant things about it. 

Michelle recommends: 

The Trespasser by Tana French

Character-driven and atmospheric crime fiction  filling the Line of Duty-shaped hole in Michelle's heart.

In this interview, we talk about:

• The ‘odd-couple' friendship at the heart of The Gaps
• The haunting crime at the centre of the novel and Leanne’s own experience as a teenager on the periphery of a major crime
• Re-visiting teenage trauma when writing
• The way girls and women are, from a young age, taught to protect themselves from violence
• Why Leanne wanted to explore the ‘perfect victim’ myth and the dangers of that narrative in the media
• Leanne’s view on the ethics around true crime as a media genre and the boundaries she gave herself when writing (with a tangent about the brilliance of Veronica Mars)
• Why Leanne wanted to explore race, culture, and class issues in the novel and how writing and fictionalising the story was therapeutic
• How Leanne wrote The Gaps in tandem with her previous middle grade novel Iris and The Tiger
• Leanne’s genre-bending style and how she departed from that in The Gaps
• The success of Leanne’s debut novel, This Is Shyness and the pressure of writing knowing people are expecting it

Books and other things mentioned:

• 10 Things I Hate About You
• Angus, Thongs and Perfect Snogging
• Sundays Pop and Culture  panel from Louise McSharry (the episode Michelle referenced is this one)
• Line of Duty 
• Veronica Mars

Follow Leanne on Instagram @lilymandarin

Follow us on Instagram @betterwordspod

The Gaps is out now in Australia. 

We both received copies of The Gaps for review from Text Publishing. 

Laura Kay is a writer and editor. She has an MA in American History from the University of Sheffield, and now lives in London with her wife and cat. In 2018, Laura was selected as one of the 10 PRH WriteNow mentees. She is based in London and The Split is her first novel.

Our interview starts at 20 minutes.

Mini book club: The Boy from the Mish by Gary Lonesborough

We both adored this funny and heartwarming queer Indigenous YA novel, set in a rural Australian community, about seventeen-year-old Jackson finding the courage to explore who he is, even if it scares him.

In this interview, we chat about:

• Laura’s debut novel The Split and why she felt it was important to explore a nuanced relationship breakdown
• Why Laura wanted to write about a close friendship between a queer woman and a queer man as the central relationship of the novel
• The character of Ally’s dad and why Laura wanted to explore the relationship between a grown-up daughter and her father, especially when they’re thrown into living together again unexpectedly
• The Sheffield setting of The Split (and no, Michelle did NOT plan to have so many midlands authors on the podcast)
• Laura’s experience as a ‘reluctant runner’ and how this was incorporated into the book
• The road to publication and how a Penguin mentoring program helped Laura get her publishing deal
• How it’s felt publishing in a pandemic and what Laura will be doing to mark the official hardback release date

Books and other things mentioned

• Memorial by Brian Washington
• Last Night at the Telegraph Club by Malinda Lo
• In at the Deep End by Kate Davies
• Detransition, Baby by Torrey Peters
• The Secret Life of Albert Entwistle by Matt Cain

Follow Laura on Instagram @lauraekay

Follow us on Instagram @betterwordspod

The Split is out 18 March in the UK and 30 March in Australia.

Michelle received a PR copy of The Split from Quercus.

Sophie Gonzales is a young adult author who lives in Melbourne. When she isn’t writing, she can be found ice skating, performing in musical theatre, and practising the piano. Today we’re talking about her brand new contemporary novel, Perfect on Paper.

Our interview starts at 11 minutes. 

Michelle recommends: 

No Shame by Tom Allen

“A brilliant comedic memoir. Anyone who has felt socially awkward or out of place will find this very touching”

Caitlin recommends:

Wandavision

“If you haven’t watched it and you like superheroes and TV, give it a crack.”

In this interview, we talk about:

• The dating advice that forms part of the Perfect on Paper plot (and Sophie’s own interest in relationships/dating advice as a teenager)
• Biphobia and why Sophie wanted to explore this through Darcy’s character and dating journey
• Why Sophie decided to pursue publication in the US first and why her novels have not been set in Australia including diversions on The Nutbush Dance (that every Aussie just knows),  Sophie’s research trip to the US and Aussie slang
• Sophie’s love for musicals and her queer re-imagining of Grease in Only Mostly Devastated
• The process of co-writing a novel, If This Gets Out, due out later this year including the weirdness of writing romantic scenes

Books and other things mentioned:

• Sex Education
• Loveless by Alice Oseman
• Brooklyn 99
• Line of Duty Season 6 (airing March 21)

Follow Abigail on Instagram @sgonzalesauthor

Follow us on Instagram @betterwordspod

Perfect on Paper is out NOW in Australia, the UK and the US. 

We both received copies of Perfect on Paper for review from Hachette. 

Kimberly Brubaker Bradley was the sort of kid who would skip lunch breaks to read and talk with the school librarian. She studied chemistry and worked as a research chemist after school, writing at night and on the weekends. Eventually, she realised that writing was her true passion and got her first publishing contract while pregnant with her second child. She now lives on a farm in Tennessee with an assortment of animals and is celebrating the publication of her 18th novel, Fighting Words. 

Just a note a warning before listening:  This episode deals with discussions of child sexual abuse and may be triggering for some listeners. If you need support:

In the UK, you can find support here.

In Australia, you can find help here. 

Interview starts at 21 minutes.

Mini-book club: Every Lie I've Ever Told by Rosie Waterland

This memoir is a moving and beautiful exploration of friendship and grief. We are both in awe of Rosie's ability to make us laugh and cry in the space of a few paragraphs. 

Please note that Caitlin's job at HarperCollins Publishers did not affect our opinion of this book. 

In this interview, we chat about:

• Why Fighting Words is the book Kimberley feels she was called to write (and why it was also the most challenging of all her work)
• How the #metoo movement spurred Kimberley to write the first sentences of the project which became Fighting Words
• How Kimberley fine-tuned the difficult subject matter to make the novel appropriate for ages 10 and up
• Why Kimberley believes children’s novels have to sometimes explore this darker subject matter
• The reaction of readers and teachers to the novel
• The research process for her previous historical novels, set in WW2 Britain (The War That Saved My Life and The War I Finally Won)
• The changes Kimberley has seen in the publishing industry (the need for diverse books) and how she’s grown as a writer

Books and other things mentioned:

• The Anti-Cool Girl by Rosie Waterland
• How to Steal a Dog by Barbara O'Connor
• Margot and Me by Juno Dawson
• Author: Angie Thomas
• Author: Carole Boston Weatherford
• Author: Nikki Grimes
• Author: Elizabeth Acevedo 
• The Enigma Game and Code Name Verity by Elizabeth Wein
• The Skylark’s War by Hilary McKay

Get in touch with Kimberly at her website. 

Follow us on Instagram @betterwordspod

*Note: We received PR copies of Fighting Words from Text Publishing.

Abigail Mann is a Norfolk native living in London, surviving on a diet of three-shot coffee, bourbon biscuits and vegetarian sausage rolls. The manuscript which became her debut novel was runner-up in the inaugural Comedy Women in Print award in 2019. Thanks to the pandemic she has just celebrated the paperback publication of her debut, the Lonely Fajita, and will soon celebrate the publication of her second novel Sister Surprise. 

We usually try to avoid talking about the Panny D (British for this whole pandemic nightmare), but in Abigail’s case it’s an essential part of the conversation and the reason why we’re discussing two novels today instead of just focusing on her latest release

Interview starts at 20 minutes if you want to skip our chat.

P.S Our beautiful new artwork is the genius of Rhi. You can follow her on Instagram here for some eye-catching graphics and cute quotes in your feed.

Caitlin recommends

It’s Been a Pleasure, Noni Blake by Claire Christian

“This book really deserves all the love it’s been getting. It actually felt really hopeful and inspiring, not just funny and joyful”

Michelle recommends

Line of Duty (TV series)

“It is just mind-blowingly good. It’s my whole life now and I can’t stop thinking about it. It is, from a storytelling perspective, some of the best TV I’ve ever seen.”

In this interview, we chat about:

• The real-life inspiration for Abigail’s debut novel, The Lonely Fajita, which is based on a scheme where young people move in as housemates with pensioners. Plus, how her time in Sheffield influenced the charming character of Annie.
• The isolation of living in a huge city, especially for elderly residents.
• Some spicy stories from Abigail’s own strange London internships (which inspired parts of The Lonely Fajita)
• The Sister Surprise and some of the fun research Abigail did for the novel in Scotland (just before the pandemic)
• Late-twenties panics and the way this time makes us reflect on our family histories and where we’ve come from
• The home DNA/Ancestry boom and how that inspired the storyline of Sister Surprise
• How a comedy writing competition forced Abigail to write The Lonely Fajita after feeling uninspired for many years following creative writing studies at university
• Abigail’s tips for great comedic writing

Books and other things mentioned

• The Switch by Beth O’Leary
• Just the Gist podcast (Elizabeth Holmes episode)
• Wolf of Wall Street
• Uncanny Valley by Anna Wiener
• This is Going to Hurt by Adam Kay
• The Panic Years by Nell Frizzell

Follow Abigail on Instagram @abigailemann

Follow us on Instagram @betterwordspod

UK listeners: The Lonely Fajita is out NOW in paperback, eBook and audio. 

Sister Surprise will be available as an eBook from March 25. It will be available in paperback in June.

Aus listeners: The Lonely Fajita will be available in paperback in Australia from April 6. 

Sister Surprise will be available as an eBook from March 25.

Please note that Caitlin's job at HarperCollins Publishers did not affect our decision to invite Abigail to be a guest, we're delighted to have her and hope you enjoy this episode. We both received copies of The Lonely Fajita and Sister Surprise for review. 

We’re sharing our favourite films, books, TV and audio of the year. Because we all know the 2020 has given us PLENTY of time to consume new content. Thanks for joining us this year and for supporting us. We can’t wait to be back in your ear holes in 2021 for Season 6.

Adult fiction

Caitlin:

• Sorrow and Bliss by Meg Mason (listen to the interview)
• The Lost Love Song by Minnie Darke
• All Our Shimmering Skies by Trent Dalton

Michelle:

• The Cows by Dawn O’Porter (and her second novel So Lucky)
• The Thursday Murder Club by Richard Osman
• The Midnight Library by Matt Haig

Movies

Caitlin:

• Palm Springs
• Enola Holmes
• Miss Americana

Michelle:

• Eurovision: The Story of Fire Saga
• Spenser Confidential
• Ready Player One

TV

Caitlin:

• Zoey’s Extraordinary Playlist
• Julie and the Phantoms
• Why Women Kill

Michelle:

• Grantchester
• Sex Education
• Inside No 9

Audio

Caitlin:

• Taylor Swift: Folklore/Evermore
• Office Ladies
• Rom Com Pods

Michelle:

• Just the Gist podcast
• Oh My God, What a Complete Aisling audiobook by Emer McLysaght and Sarah Breen
• Evil Genius podcast

Young Adult

Caitlin:

• On the Come Up by Angie Thomas
• Red, White and Royal Blue by Casey McQuiston
• How it All Blew Up by Arvin Ahmadi (listen to the interview)

Michelle:

• Loveless by Alice Oseman (listen to the interview)
• The Enigma Game by Elizabeth Wein
• Margot and Me by Juno Dawson

Arvin Ahmadi grew up outside Washington DC, graduated from Columbia University, and worked in the tech industry prior to becoming a full-time writer. He now lives in New York City and has published three books. He’s joining us today to talk about his latest novel, How It All Blew Up. 

Interview starts at 18 minutes. Note: right near the end Arvin's Airpods died so he drops out and jumps back in again. 

Caitlin recommends

Dash and Lily (based on Dash and Lily's Book of Dares by David Levithan and Rachel Cohn)

Michelle recommends

Is This Coercive Control? 

If you haven't already listened to our chat with Louise O'Neill, we recommend listening to that as well since After the Silence focuses heavily on coercive control relationships. Find out more about why coercive control isn't criminalised in Australia. Articles from The Conversation: It’s time ‘coercive control’ was made illegal in Australia and Australia is not ready to criminalise coercive control — here’s why

In this interview, we chat about:

• The real-life inspiration for How It All Blew Up
• Why Arvin prefers the comfort blanket of writing fiction (and how fiction helped him get his shit figured out)
• The dilemma of wanting to explore painful issues but feeling as if you’re “pimping your pain” in doing so
• The importance of self-care while writing
• The process of writing and publishing How It All Blew Up (which was meant to be a totally different story)
• The real-life characters and what they think of the novel
• How Arvin feels about the feedback he’s had on the book so far and what people are celebrating most
• Pop culture as a shortcut to who we are
• Why we need more queer Muslim stories
• Arvin’s experience as a Wikipedia editor

Books and other things mentioned:

• Call Me By Your Name
• Master of None Season 2
• The Henna Wars by Adiba Jaigirdar

Follow Arvin on Instagram @arvinahmadi

Follow us on Instagram @betterwordspod

We both received a copy of How It All Blew Up from Allen & Unwin. 

Stephanie Yeboah has been part of the fat acceptance and body positivity movement since 2014. She has since then written for multiple publications and her own blog about intersectionality in the body positivity movement, Beauty standards within the community and self-love. Today we are discussing her brilliant debut non-fiction memoir/self-help guide Fattily Ever After. 

Interview starts at 30 minutes.

Mini TV club: The Crown (Season 4)

Spoiler alert: we will be discussing some key components of Season 4 of The Crown. You've been warned! (More than, you know, the fact it's based on real events).

If you enjoyed Season 4 of The Crown, you NEED to listen to You're Wrong About and their recent 5-part deep dive into Princess Diana's life, marriage, death, and legacy. 

In this interview, we talk about: 

• How Stephanie discovered the body positivity movement and the emotional effect it had on her life
• The history of the body positivity movement, how it has been taken into the mainstream and where we go from here
• The lasting legacy of the original body positivity movement
• How Stephanie copes with online trolling and keeps showing up for herself online
• The importance of normalising all types of bodies
• How Stephanie got her book deal (including how she found an agent on Twitter)
• How Stephanie accidentally delivered the whole manuscript months ahead of schedule (despite a broken ankle)
• The design and structure of Fattily Ever After (because it's GORGEOUS)

Books and other things mentioned:

• You’re Wrong About (podcast)
• Rake (Australian TV show - not the US version!)
• Bob Hawke (7 videos that sum him up)
• Michael Fagan episode of The Crown - what they get right and wrong
• Black cabs in London during Covid
• Why Prince Andrew of The Crown is so shocking
• The Queen (film)
• Maintenance Phase (podcast)

Follow Stephanie on Instagram @stephanieyeboah. 

Follow us on Instagram @betterwordspod

*Note: Michelle received a PR copy of Fattily Ever After from Hardie Grant Egmont.

 Frances Chapman was born in Henley-On-Thames in England and she spent her childhood pinballed between continents before settling in Sydney. She worked as a journalist and social researcher for several years before she became a freelance writer in 2015. Her debut novel, Stars Like Us, was published by Hardie Grant Egmont in July 2020 after winning the Hardie Grant Egmont Ampersand Prize in 2018, and the Varuna-Black Inc Publisher Introduction Program in 2017. 

Interview starts at 22 minutes.

Caitlin recommends

It Only Happens in the Movies by Holly Bourne. 

Michelle recommends

The Reckless Afterlife of Harriet Stoker by Lauren James

Bonus: We discuss the amalgamation of our two music icons Sir Paul McCartney and Taylor Swift for the first Musicians on Musicians feature in Rolling Stone. Read the article here.  

In this interview, we chat about

• How Justin Bieber eating fried chicken in Sydney inspired Stars Like Us (see the image here)
• The paparazzi and the impact on celebrities and famous figures
• The fact we’ve all got the capability to snap a smartphone image of any celeb we see
• Is fame really an attractive prospect?
• Why Frances wanted to explore fame in the context of a young adult novel
• Having diverse music tastes (and being teased for it)
• The character inspired by Harry Styles
• How Frances wrote song lyrics for the book
• Winning the Ampersand Prize for Stars Like Us and the road to publication
• To sum up everything we’ve talked about, enjoy this Harry Styles cover of The Chain

Books and other things mentioned:

• Downton Abbey movie
• 10 Things I Hate About You
• Miss Americana (Taylor Swift documentary)
• Giving You Everything (Spice Girls documentary. Pssst, there’s actually a new documentary scheduled for 2021 to mark 25 years since Wannabe. SAY WHAT?)
• The Beatles: The First U.S. Visit (documentary)
• The Eternal Sunshine of Harry Styles (Rolling Stone article. Read it here)
• High Fidelity (TV adaptation)

Follow Frances on Instagram @Franceschapmanwriter.

Follow us on Instagram @betterwordspod

Caitlin received a copy of Stars Like Us from Hardie Grant Egmont.