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Guest: Lance Willett, Chief Quality Officer at Automattic

Topics Covered:

• How Automattic’s open source culture evolved over 20 years
• What a Chief Quality Officer actually does—and why it matters
• Quality = Craft × Context, and how that feedback loop scales
• Automattic’s AI strategy: support bots, contextual UI, and site generation
• The importance of tools like Linear and Storybook in enforcing quality
• How Automattic balances speed, risk, and governance with AI experimentation
• Lessons from stabilizing Tumblr during its post-acquisition reboot
• Prioritization and the dangers of unbounded optimism
• Leadership takeaways from working closely with Matt Mullenweg

00:00 – 03:00: Intro and Lance’s journey from freelancer to Automattic

03:00 – 06:30: How Automattic’s open source ethos evolved over 20 years

06:30 – 10:30: What it means to be a Chief Quality Officer—Craft × Context

10:30 – 15:00: Scaling quality: repo sprawl, signal vs. noise, and auditing

15:00 – 20:00: UX details like forms, performance, and speed as quality levers

20:00 – 24:00: Driving culture change with standard tooling (Linear, Storybook)

24:00 – 28:00: Guardrails for AI experimentation and internal governance

28:00 – 32:00: AI at Automattic: support bots, contextual UI, AI site builder

32:00 – 36:00: Competing with Webflow, Wix, and Squarespace through innovation

36:00 – 38:30: Balancing ecosystem contribution with revenue and investor pressure

38:30 – 41:00: Lessons from stabilizing Tumblr: cost, culture, safety, turnover

41:00 – 44:00: Automattic’s long-term challenge: bounded optimism and focus

44:00 – 46:30: Leadership wisdom from Matt Mullenweg: details always matter

46:30 – 49:00: Lance’s $250K mistake—and what it taught him about leadership

https://brodo.com/ (our other sponsor 😂)

https://fullstackleader.blog/ (work topics: WordPress, tech, productivity, quality, & more)

https://lance.blog/ (fun stuff: poems, stories, links; photos “on the go”)

https://linear.app/

https://clay.earth/ via https://automattic.com/2025/06/12/automattic-welcomes-clay/

Companies with dedicated quality efforts:

https://anthonyhobday.com/blog/20240914.html

> While fixing small bugs might not 10x your growth overnight

> Not fixing them will make 10x growth impossible over time

Credit: Casey Winters – someone you should have on this show if you haven’t already

https://caseyaccidental.com/

Episode webpage - https://www.betweentwocoos.com/automattic-chief-quality-officer-lance-willett-wordpress

Michael Koenig - https://linkedin.com/in/michael-koenig514 

Between Two COO's - https://betweentwocoos.com 

Get 90 days of Fellow's AI meeting assistant at fellow.app/coo

Why Linda still codes on weekends — and what it teaches her about the future of AI (6:00)

How AI is changing what Webflow builds — and how fast they build it (3:30–13:00)

What happens when websites are no longer built just for humans (14:00)

The rise of AEO (Answer Engine Optimization) and what it means for ops (17:00–21:00)

Favorite LLMs and workflows — from Claude Sonnet to custom GPTs (23:00–26:00)

How Linda builds a culture of innovation — and why bad ideas are worth celebrating (29:00)

Leading through operational ambiguity and defining what to say “no” to (49:00)

How product thinking helps Linda prioritize and run the business (54:00)

Creating an actual in-office “innovation lab” — and what worked (1:04:00)

Wild story: how her team navigated the SVB collapse weekend (1:08:00)

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In this episode, Doug and I cover:

• Why “AI agent” is more than just a buzzword
• The difference between deflection and resolution in AI-powered support
• How Kustomer structures RevOps, GTM, and forecasting
• What it means to operate with high-context vs. generic playbooks
• How Doug thinks about team structure, ownership, and cross-functional clarity
• Predictions for agent-to-agent communication: “Your AI agent will talk to my AI agent—and we’ll both just read the summary.”

Timestamps:

(02:00) Defining agentic AI in customer service

(06:30) From deflection to resolution: Kustomer’s AI in action

(10:15) How AI is changing the org chart and team design

(14:00) The problem with low-context playbooks

(17:45) RevOps structuring and ownership

(22:00) Forecasting: visibility vs. execution

(27:00) AI tooling, integration, and buyer psychology

(31:00) Agent-to-agent interactions and AI futurecasting

(34:30) What Doug’s watching next in ops and AI

Links

Doug Hanna on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/douglashanna1/

Kustomer - https://www.kustomer.com/

Michael Koenig on LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/michael-koenig514

Between Two COO's - https://betweentwocoos.com 

Get 90 days free with Fellow's AI Meeting Assistant - https://fellow.app/coo

Key Takeaways:

RevOps aligns and optimizes sales, marketing, and customer success, ensuring efficient and sustainable growth.

Effective RevOps requires balancing strategic planning, data-driven analytics, and tactical execution.

Successful RevOps integration hinges on clear communication, cultural alignment, and strategic hiring decisions.

AI is poised to significantly impact RevOps by improving efficiency, though human judgment remains crucial.

Metrics and KPIs in RevOps must directly correlate to revenue growth, profitability, and organizational efficiency.

Brad emphasizes proactive disruption, transparency, and alignment to navigate the rapid evolution of sales operations.

Timestamps:

(02:00) What is RevOps and how Brad transitioned into it from finance

(07:00) Common misconceptions and early mistakes in RevOps

(11:00) Building a robust RevOps foundation and data hygiene

(15:00) Creating alignment across sales, marketing, and customer success

(20:00) Key metrics and strategic decision-making in RevOps

(24:00) AI’s impact on RevOps and potential pitfalls

(30:00) Real-world experiences with AI-powered sales calls

(33:00) RevOps vs. SalesOps and defining terms clearly

(36:00) Advocating for RevOps budgets and demonstrating value

(40:00) Lessons learned about effective communication and internal alignment

Links:

90 Days Free of Fellow's AI Meeting Assistant: https://fellow.app/coo

Brad Rosen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bradrosen1/

Michael Koenig on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-koenig514/  

Sales Assembly: https://www.salesassembly.com/

Between Two COO's: https://betweentwocoos.com 

Episode URL: https://www.betweentwocoos.com/sales-assembly-president-brad-rosen-on-unlocking-growth-and-why-revops-is-critical-for-sustainable-scaling 

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Timestamps:

(02:00) Fellow’s shift from productivity tool to AI assistant.

(07:00) Implementing large-scale organizational change.

(13:00) Managing change and internal communications.

(20:00) Moving toward an agentic, automated workflow future.

(23:00) Unexpected real-world AI uses at Fellow.

(29:00) Privacy, security, and enterprise-grade compliance.

(33:00) Selecting and utilizing LLMs and managing AI economics.

(36:00) How to build an AI-first company from scratch.

(40:00) Why existing companies struggle to adopt AI effectively.

(44:00) Practical advice on starting AI implementation in established companies.

Key Takeaways:

Fellow transformed from a productivity tool into a strategic, AI-powered assistant helping organizations automate meetings, streamline workflows, and derive actionable insights.

Aydin emphasizes the necessity of disruptive innovation, detailing Fellow’s cultural shift toward agility and fearlessness to stay ahead in the AI-driven landscape.

Security, privacy, and compliance remain core to Fellow, with advanced governance and redaction features designed specifically for internal enterprise meetings.

Real-world AI applications include automatically generating meeting summaries, tracking and following up on action items, updating CRM and project management systems, and creating customized client communications.

Insights on successful AI adoption: Aydin highlights practical steps organizations should take, from establishing AI councils to experimenting actively with new technologies and leveraging external AI consultants.

Links

Try Fellow's AI Meeting Copilot - 90 days FREE - fellow.app/coo

Episode URL: https://betweentwocoos.com/the-bold-pivot-from-meetings-to-ai-with-aydin-mirzaee-ceo-of-fellow

Between Two COO's website: https://betweentwocoos.com 

Michael Koenig on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/michael-koenig514

Aydin Mirzaee on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aydinmirzaee/

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AI and Privacy: Navigating the EU's New AI Act with Flick Fisher

In this episode of Between Two COOs, host Michael Koenig welcomes back Flick Fisher, an expert on EU privacy law. They dive deep into the newly enacted EU Artificial Intelligence Act and its implications for businesses globally. They discuss compliance challenges, prohibited AI practices, and the potential geopolitical impact of AI regulation. For leaders and operators navigating AI in business, this episode provides crucial insights into managing AI technology within regulatory frameworks.

00:00 Introduction to Fellow and AI Meeting Assistant

01:01 Introduction to Between Two COOs Episode

02:08 What is the EU’s AI Act?

03:42 Prohibited AI Practices in the EU

07:46 Enforcement and Compliance Challenges

12:18 US vs EU: Regulatory Landscape

29:58 Impact on Companies and Consumers

31:55 Future of AI Regulation

Between Two COO's - https://betweentwocoos.com 

Between Two COO's Episode 

Michael Koenig on LinkedIn

Flick Fisher on LinkedIn

Flick on Data Privacy and GDPR on Between Two COO's

More on Flick's take of the EU's AI Act

Don't forget to check out www.fellow.app/coo for a 90-day free trial of their AI Meeting Assistant.

[00:00] Introduction – Michael introduces Fellow as a trusted AI meeting assistant.
[01:00] Welcome to Between Two COOs – Introducing Justin Etkin and Tropic.io.
[02:00] The evolution of procurement – From cost-cutting to strategic value creation.
[05:00] When should companies start formalizing procurement?
[07:00] Common mistakes businesses make in procurement.
[10:00] Using data and AI to improve procurement efficiency.
[12:00] Negotiation strategies and dealing with vendors.
[16:00] The role of AI in procurement and automation potential.
[20:00] How companies are shifting towards integrated procurement platforms.
[23:00] The intersection of procurement and legal, finance, and security.
[28:00] Justin’s wildest COO experience – Painting walls before an office move-out.
[30:00] Closing thoughts – Where to follow Justin and learn more about Tropic.io.

Tropic - https://www.tropicapp.io/

Between Two COO's - https://betweentwocoos.com 

Episode URL - https://betweentwocoos.com/tropic-coo-justin-etkin

Michael Koenig - https://linkedin.com/in/michael-koenig514

Justin Etkin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/justintropic/

Don't forget to check out www.fellow.app/coo for a 90-day free trial of their AI Meeting Assistant.

This episode is powered by Fellow AI Meeting Assistant. Get 90 days free at fellow.app/coo

Key Takeaways:

• Hidden C-Suite Job Market: The majority of C-level roles are filled through networking, talent partners, and executive recruiters before job postings are even considered.

• Role of Networking: Building strong relationships within your industry and maintaining top-of-mind positioning with decision-makers is crucial.

• Non-Traditional Candidates: Market shifts, such as the rise of AI and post-COVID changes, are creating opportunities for candidates from unconventional backgrounds.

• AI in Executive Recruiting: True Search uses AI-driven tools like Thrive to manage data at scale, identifying the best candidates more efficiently.

• Career Advice for COOs: Gaining hands-on experience in both value creation (product/tech) and value capture (go-to-market) functions can prepare COOs for CEO roles.

• Culture Fit: Evaluating culture fit involves assessing how a candidate aligns with and enhances the company’s existing culture without disrupting it.

• The Board Member Journey: To be considered for a board position, candidates need specialized expertise and experience managing boards or navigating complex organizational challenges.

Notable Quotes:

• “Position yourself within your network as someone ready to step into a C-level role—start those conversations early.”

• “If everyone’s a thought leader, no one is a thought leader. Focus your voice and expertise on what truly adds value.”

• “To be a successful CEO, you need to have hands-on experience in both product and go-to-market functions.”

Evan’s Unforgettable Moments:

• Two finalists in a CEO search accidentally meeting mid-interview process due to scheduling overlap—illustrating the small-world nature of the C-suite ecosystem.

• Delivering news to two candidates while they stood together on the sidelines of their kids’ soccer game, showing how interconnected the executive world can be.

Be sure to check out Fellow's AI Meeting Assistant and get 90 days free at fellow.app/coo.

Episode Overview

In this episode of Between Two COOs, host Michael Koenig interviews Jon Mark, COO of Vestwell, a leading provider of digital platforms for workplace savings and investment programs. Vestwell supports nearly 25,000 small businesses, over a million savers, and $25 billion in assets under management across all 50 states.

They discuss Vestwell’s mission to close the savings gap, its innovative approach to financial wellness, and Jon’s career journey from Bridgewater to COO at Vestwell.

Key Topics Covered

1. Vestwell’s Vision and Product Offerings

• Simplifying workplace savings through innovative digital platforms.

• Expanding beyond 401(k)s to include student debt paydown, 529 education savings, and more.

• Recent acquisition of Gratifi from Morgan Stanley to help employers support student loan repayment.

2. The Retirement Crisis

• Addressing the lack of sufficient retirement savings in the U.S.

• The role of state-sponsored retirement programs and employer-provided plans.

• Larry Fink’s warning about the coming retirement flood.

3. AI in Financial Wellness

• Vestwell’s integration of AI to enhance user experiences, including a new AI chatbot.

• Using AI to simplify complex financial concepts and empower financial advisors.

4. Jon Mark’s Career Path

• Transition from VP of Strategy to COO at Vestwell.

• Mentorship, curiosity, and deep problem-solving as key drivers of career progression.

• Lessons learned from working at Bridgewater and applying them to operations at Vestwell.

5. Navigating Risk and Strategy

• Managing risk by tying decisions to money, time, and outcomes.

• Balancing mission and growth by focusing on small and medium-sized businesses.

• Using a “chassis” approach to consolidate financial tools for broader impact.

6. Operational Challenges in a Regulated Industry

• Overcoming complex regulatory requirements.

• How Vestwell builds scalable, efficient processes within strict constraints.

7. The Role of the COO

• A COO’s need to handle diverse domains—engineering, HR, healthcare, and more.

• Strategies for managing imposter syndrome and fostering collaboration.

• Building a transparent culture through metrics and regular communication.

8. Mission-Driven Decision Making

• How Vestwell aligns its strategy with its mission to close the savings gap.

• Clear objectives, OKRs, and open communication as tools to drive alignment.

Memorable Moments

• Jon’s story about solving three major operational issues in one night before an acquisition deal closed.

• Insights on how Vestwell is innovating in financial wellness while maintaining a mission-oriented approach.
 

Key Quotes

• “You can’t just approach problems with jargon—you need to deeply understand the substance.”

• “Having a tangible North Star is critical. For us, it’s funded accounts—it’s the metric that matters most.”

• “At the end of the day, strategy and tactics are just bets with different time horizons.”

About the Host

Michael Koenig is the host of Between Two COOs, a podcast that dives into the stories, strategies, and advice of today’s top Chief Operating Officers. Learn more at betweentwocoos.com.

In this episode of Between Two COOs, host Michael Koenig sits down with Valentin Gruber, COO of HomeToGo, to explore the inner workings of the vacation rental aggregator and its strategy. HomeToGo went public via a SPAC in 2021, reaching a valuation of $1.2 billion after raising $150 million in VC funding. Valentin shares insights into the company’s growth, its approach to balancing marketplace and software solutions, and the strategic importance of acquisitions. The discussion delves into leadership principles, decision-making frameworks, and how HomeToGo navigates market complexities while competing with giants like Airbnb. Valentin also provides an entertaining look at innovative cost-saving measures the company employed, highlighting the unique culture at HomeToGo. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in strategic growth, leadership, and the evolving landscape of the vacation rental market.

00:00 Introduction to Between Two COOs

00:16 Valentin Gruber's Background and Home2Go Overview

01:01 Home2Go's Market Position and Public Listing

01:57 Home2Go's Business Model Evolution

05:16 Scale and Transactions at Home2Go

07:19 Subsidiaries and Acquisitions

15:36 Strategic Planning and Problem Solving

22:39 Leadership and Company Culture

24:20 Management Approach and Decision-Making Techniques

25:45 Balancing Learning and Expertise

28:59 The Importance of Pre-Reads in Decision Making

32:41 Leaders Staying Connected to Problems

33:54 Understanding SPACs and HomeToGo's Public Journey

38:20 Strategic Use of SPAC Funds

39:18 Evaluating and Executing M&A Deals

42:05 Memorable Moments and Financial Discipline

46:26 Conclusion and Farewell