Beyond the Uniform

“You know sometimes - for example, even over this holiday weekend - people will ask if I had to work on a certain day. This is my life! This is what I do. It's always funny because what your life looks like is - for me - this is what I want to make my life's work. It's what I'm passionate about and what I enjoy doing."
- Alex Stone

Alex Stone is the Founder & CEO of Athletes of Valor, who’s mission is to help veterans transition from service to career by leveraging the power of collegiate sports. He started out as a Sergeant in the Marine Corps, after which he worked as a Product Manager at Wellpower Sports Co, and then at Under Armour as both a Development Manager and then Product Line Manager.

The top 2 reasons to listen to this episode is:

1. Sports Industry: Alex worked his way up in the sports industry to work at his dream job at Under Armour. He talks about this route, and why it might appeal to other veterans
2. Starting a company: Alex is doing his life's work and has built Athletes of Valour from the ground up. Any veteran interested in starting their own company would benefit from this
3. Collegiate Athletics: This is a great route for veterans, and one that boosts their engagement and fulfillment at school. Alex's organization helps veterans get into collegiate sports and has a lot to say about this

Our Sponsor:

• Audible is offering one FREE audio book to Beyond the Uniform listeners. You can claim this offer here, and see a list of books recommended by my guests at BeyondTheUniform.io/books

Selected Resources

• https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0817919341/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=transparentte-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=0817919341&linkId=cff433522a1e724fcc9dcd7c91e4149c

Show Notes

Note: I've typed these notes during my interview, so they may not completely represent a verbatim version of our conversation, and likely contain spelling and grammar errors. My intention is to provide veterans with a quick reference to see the gist of our conversation, along with timestamps to hear the interviewees actual advice in their own words within the interview.

• 2:44 - Alex's background
• 3:20 - How would you describe Athletes of Valor?
  • Comes from his experience of being a high school athlete, and no clear path to be a collegaite athelte when leaving the miltary
  • Allows active duty service members to create a profile of themselves as a potential student athlete. coaches come in, evaluate the veteran applicants
  • Most veterans have a great athletic ability and they just connect the dots
  • Answers questions for coaches - PTSD, eligibility etc
• 5:27 - What does the process look like
  • 100% free
  • Sign-up on website
  • Basic questions - separation date, atheltic background, educational background, military background
  • can upload old highligh films or any videos
  • Everything is housed online in one place
• 6:30 - What to do to prepare now if on active duty
  • Never too early to start researching programs
  • If you think you have 2 years before separation, the deadlines come up quickly. May need to take an SAT, ACT program
  • Start gathering that info, but you can house it all online with them
  • The sooner you're online the sooner you can be found - can be picked up 18-24 months
• 7:50 - What have you found in working with veterans over the last year?
  • There's a lot to this - it's a full time job and takes a lot of work and effort
  • Most people think they'll just put their name in and be done with it - it's your life and education, the magic opportunity won't just fall into your lap
  • 9:15 - magic opportunity
• 9:08 - Success stories
  • 16 football players playing this fall
  • Over 1k athletes on their platform
  • They want to use team sports as a structure for integration back into the college life
  • Gives people a purpose of working towards a common goal; they're going to earn education, play sports and be more employable after college
  • The more work you put in the more likely you are to find a good opportunity
• 13:30 - What lead you to leave the Marine Corps?
  • Enlisted right out of high school, served 4 years active duty
  • After second deployment overseas knew that he wanted to do something different
  • After 2.5 years of active duty knew he wanted to move on
• 14:26 - What was your first job search like and how did you end up at Wellpower Sports?
  • It was really tough
  • He had just got back 4 months prior to his separation
  • It was challenging to get call backs after just sending resumes and applying to specific jobs
  • Trying to translate experience and get in front of the right people
  • His old high school football coach, who he had reached out to, worked with Wellpower Sports (overseas manufacturer for sports equipment) and he offered to introduce him
  • He started taking local courses at community college and started working as a paid intern
• 16:35 - How would you describe your work at Wellpower Sports?
  • He did product line management and had deep exposure to the inner workings of a company
  • Projects from developing new types of equipment to laying out a product line for a new sports medicine line to present to a customer. Figure out pricing, product management, manufacturing, do research on what's in the market, what are current athletes doing and wearing, what are trends?
  • You use all these products over the years and then get the chance to influence it
• 18:58 - What lead you to Under Armour?
  • He used to go there for business opportunities, since Wellpower Sports worked with UA.
  • When you walk in you really feel the culture on the campus - very smart people, very forward thinking on innovation on how to make athletes better through creating incredible products
  • It was always a great learning experience to see a massive brand and massive company rather than his sales office experience
  • He realized he wanted to be in this industry long-term
• 20:20 - How would you describe the work that you did at UA?
  • The person he was meeting with at UA ended up becoming his boss. They were growing their sporting line and team and asked if he'd be interested in this
  • So he moved to Baltimore, Maryland.
  • Started in product develppment, managing everyting from protective equipment to gloves and workign on advanced projects on the side (new potential protective pieces of equipment)
  • After two yaers moved over to the product line manager. This was less travel, and more on the business model and building product lines, working with the sales teams, understanding the trends, managaing more of the business and licensing
  • In any manufacturing business you need to understand how decisions are made; how long things take. Spending trip after trip in Asia, seeing how to create a product with a particular margin and ahve multiple price points and understand what consumers are looking for
• 23:09 - What advice do you have for veterans seeking to work at UA?
  • They are very veteran friendly; he worked with a lot of great vets there
  • It's Network, Network, Network
  • You can apply online and they're responsive. But get involved somehow in someway with the sports industry - with UA, or one of their partners
  • Build a network, get to know people; most positions are filled from referrals
  • It's a small industry and once people get to know who you are it's
• 24;25 - What was the genesis of Athletes of Valor?
  • Built off personal expeirence transitioning
  • at UA it was a dream career at a dream company
  • It was difficult to leave
  • Worked with a lot of high schools and top recruits across the coutnry
  • He used to joke - why don't we do this on a military base? They could go play college football, college baseball after their service. It piqued a lot of interest
  • Spent about a year at night trying to see who had been successful in doing this, and how impactful it was in their transition
  • This started to put the pieces together in bridigng the gaps and talking to people who went to college sports after active duty - what were the pain points
  • Coaches wanted to find more people liek thsi, but a lot of the athletes thought they had gotten lucky. He htought there has got to be a better way. There are lots of platforms for high schoolers
  • If I coudl do it again i would do it longer - work at UA an work on lunch breaks
• 29:53 - At what point did you decide to leave UA?
  • The timing perspective it was difficult to do both Under Armour and Athletes of Valor
  • his desire and want was to continuously build Athletes of Valor, not just at night but all the time. He fell in love with the mission
  • Life timing as well - had just gotten married, no kids yet, and knew he would have additional responsibilities soon
  • Secured a few investors who invested so they could build the software
• 31:50 - What does life look like right now?
  • He jokes that on holidays - this is his life ,this is all he does. This is what he wants to make his lifes work and what he enjoys doing
  • He's not going to be doing 120 hours a week but this is what he does - gets up in the morning, late at night talking to coaches, it doesn't seem like work but engulfs his life around it
  • From a small team dynamic - fundraiinsg, sales, product development - it's constant. If it's not somethign your'e passionate about it'll be hard
  • He spends most days running all over the place -talking to coaches, team members, atheltes
  • Best thing he does is he just keeps going - as much as I can fit in one day, a little further today than tomorrow,
• 34:16 - How do you get paid?
  • Annual partnership fees with schools they partner with
  • Also have corporate sponsors for events to make sure they can cover the costs
  • Building a career platform that will be ready at the end of the year - corproate partners who want to highlight internships and job opportunities (job board & third party recruiting) to fill specific roles for those who have played college sports and are veterans
• 35;36 - What advice do you have for other veterans seeking to start their own organization?
  • it's going to be a lot harder than you think and take longer than you think
  • Be prepared because there are a lot of ups and downs
  • Goign to have good days and bad days - biggest thing you can do is keep going
  • Miltiary teaches you this - embrace the siuck and stay the course
  • you'll have a million people tell you what won't work - you're the only one who can really keep it all together and know what it will take to get yuor startup to the next level
  • Be preapred for tht - going to be discouraging - stay the course, keep working towards the goal
• 37:15 - What resources - books, conferences, programs - have you found helpful that you would recommend to other veterans?
  • Whatever your industry is, you need to immerse yourself into that industry. Make sure you have all the answer to all the quesitons you'll ever get. If you don't have that answer need to find it so you have a good answer next time
  • In the sporting goods industry he didn't know about materials or the brands out there
  • Immersed himself - YouTube videos, how to make certain products, different types of screen printing
  • Next time in the meeting was able to speak to it intelligently
  • When he started Atheltes of Valor it was a space he hadn't been in and creating a new market
  • Books, articles, speaking with people around the sapce - need to immerse self in all aspects of it. You need ot be the subject matter expert in a field
• 40:22 - Final words of wisdom?
  • There's a lot of transitional programs out there; lots geared toward veterans. Do your research. Reach out to a lot of them, ask quesitons and make sure they'll give you the right level of support
  • People reach out for job search, career training, resumes support, etc. The reality is nothign is more valuable than networking and doing thigns yourself. It won't fall into your lap; your job won't magically come to you. Make sure these are resources available to transition veterans. It's a lot of work and up to you and put the time in, get out of comfort zone. Use a certain tool - to find people who could make an introduction s

“If you don't have a narrow vision of what you want so that you can focus, if you're open to everything - which is the infamous line we get from most of the people we work with: 'I'll move anywhere and do anything' - they think that makes it easier to help them find a job, whereas it's actually the exact opposite. What we need is for you to narrow down and focus. Align with mentors, align with organizations like [Hire Heroes USA], and together we can overcome this structural divide between an all-volunteer force and society that less and less knows what the all-volunteer force goes through."
- Nathan Smith

Nathan Smith is the Chief Operating Officer at Hire Heroes USA - which provides free, expert career coaching and job sourcing to hundreds of transitioning U.S. military members, veterans and military spouses each week, and over 16k veterans and spouses since 2007. He started out at the Virginia Military Institute, after which he served in the Marine Corps for seven years as an Infantry Officer. After his transition from the Marine Corps, he started at Hire Heroes USA as a Deputy Director, and was subsequently promoted to Executive Director and then most recently, Chief Operating Officer

The top 2 reasons to listen to this episode is:

1. Great Resource for All Veterans: Hire Heroes USA is a free organization for veterans and their families. They pair you with a mentor and work with you until you find what you're looking for. He has great thoughts on using volunteering as a way to gain momentum and connection as you may your transition
2. Operations & non-profits: both of these are great fields for veterans. Non-profits seem to provide the camaraderie, small community, and purpose-driven organization that appeals to veterans. Operation is also highly suited to most veterans. Nathan talks about his experience as Chief Operations Officer, as well as non-profits, and why veterans may love each of these.

Our Sponsor:

• Audible is offering one FREE audio book to Beyond the Uniform listeners. You can claim this offer here, and see a list of books recommended by my guests at BeyondTheUniform.io/books

Selected Resources

• https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0817919341/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=transparentte-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=0817919341&linkId=cff433522a1e724fcc9dcd7c91e4149c

Show Notes

Note: I've typed these notes during my interview, so they may not completely represent a verbatim version of our conversation, and likely contain spelling and grammar errors. My intention is to provide veterans with a quick reference to see the gist of our conversation, along with timestamps to hear the interviewees actual advice in their own words within the interview.

• 3:20 - Nathan's bio
• Hire Heroes
  • 4:26 - What would you want listeners to know about Hire Heroes USA?
    • This is a best in class organization in the country, working with transition veterans and families. There are bigger organizations but none better. They individually assign people who come to them to a transition specialist; they are with them until they have a great outcome - education, fulltime job, etc.
  • 5:28 - If someone listening is on active duty, how would they get involved with Hire Heroes?
    • 90% of what they do is virtual - it's the most cost efficient and effective way to help people. So they can help people in ANY geographic location. As a result, the main way that people come to the program is through their website. If you click on the Services tab and sign up online, you'll start in the queue to get involved with a transition process. There are also workshops throughout the US (50-60 per year) on or near military bases.
  • 6:54 - If someone listening is a few years out of active duty, how could they get involved?
    • Whether it's pre-separation or post-separation; looking to help other veterans or get advice, there's a LOT of resources - interview skills, resume help. They have over 600 volunteers as well who are mentors for their clients, so there is a way to get involved here.
  • 8:20 - What are some common challenges you see veterans face in their transition?
    • The #1 challenge across all services is a lack of knowledge. No active duty member has made the transition before so there's a lot of fear and anxiety about this. The military does a great job of teaching people to operate in a dangerous environment and trains them in a step-by-step way with accountability, professional development, and knowledgable workers alongside them. But this isn't the case in the civilian sector. So many veterans don't understand what is out there and how to tell their story on the outside.
  • 10:25 - What are some common misconceptions you see veterans have when they approach their transition?
    • Veterans are more heavily represented in the government than any demographic in the United States. Disable veterans are even more represented than other veterans in the government. Often this is because these organizations recruit from the military and it is a familiar path for veterans. But this might not be the best fit for each veteran.
    • A lot of veterans also go into contract jobs, and there's a lot of recruitment around this. There are great opportunities here. however, if you're going to be offered $100k+ to do security in Afghanistan, you need to consider why the pay is 3X higher than when you were in the military, often due to increased risk. Large $ doesn't always translate into great job opportunities.
    • Do you need to take a step down for income and responsibility when you leave? It depends. It's situationally dependent. There are many people who transition out and are far better off than when in the military. There are also an equal number who had to take a significant step back when they transitioned out. It depends on what your personal financial situation is- you may not be able to take that step back or step down. Or you may not have an earning opportunity that meets your financial requirements - you'll need to live lean and make the most of things in the meantime.
    • Unlike the military, that has antiquated personnel stations and promotions systems, most civillian environments are not this way. Positions open up and you'll likely find more flexibility.
    • Formal education with a degree at the end of it tends to be a great option for most people. He encourages people not to use the GI bill to delay a career decision - it helps you figure out things, but most people benefit from making a decision soon. Many career paths do require a degree. To be competitive you'll need this so it's good to plan - talk to people on the outside, talk to Hire Heroes people and they can help with these sorts
    • Hire Heroes demographics resembles the US Militaries - they are over represented in the federal government. Healthcare and IT are always in the top 5 for people they work with; security is also up there, but they also find that veterans go into client facing or customer service facing roles in any type of job (not just service industries) since they get along with a lot of people.
    • Another area to consider is teaching and non-profits. It's an alternative to working in government that is mission driven and a way of given back and very value driven. There are often veterans who are coaches, teachers, and non-profit executives. It can be very rewarding and very flexible, but you also get exposure into other sections of the US that you might not get in Oil&Gas for instance.
  • 21:37 - This is from a friend of mine, but if there is a veteran in our life who is facing challenges in their career (let’s say over a year of unemployment), what are ways that their friends can be most helpful?
    • It's a big challenge - this is his full-time job is to help other veterans. What people don't need is a lot of "do this" and "don't do this" they need faith, coaching and someone on their side. But they're also advocates of tough love. They love to hire veterans because they understand the situation of other veterans. There's a big role to coaching, and an understanding that there are things going on beyond just the professional situation. There are almost certainly other factors if someone is long-term unemployed. To get some early wins you could suggest volunteer opprotutnies - rather than the pressure of finding the right job, think of what the person enjoys and try to find that in a volunteer capacity. coaching and helping at high schools; volunteer in way that gets them engaged, builds their confidence and gets them past the momentary lapse.
    • As a reminder, Hire Heroes is completely free, no charge whatsoever. They're not in receipt of government funding - they are funded through donations and foundations who believe in the value of what they are doing.
• Nathan
  • 27:02 - How would you describe what you do as COO to someone on active duty?
    • He allocates scarce resources to accomplish goals
    • A lot of what he does is bread and butter leadership - he enjoys it and learned it in the Marine Corps. He has other managers reporting to him, and half of a given day is working with a manager to solve personnel issues, discuss ideas for a new program, figuring out adjustments to make and problems to solve. IT's being done in conjunction with other highly capable individuals. It's a neat environment of collaboratively environment. Always focused on the clients.
    • Other parts are related to developing products, reviewing marketing material, reviewing the budget, formalizing job descriptions. One thing nice about working about a company with less than 100 people is that the COO is involved in everything.
  • 31:09 - How did you make the decision to leave the Marine Corps?
    • There were a number of factors. he did his initial four years, and was coming off a difficult deployment in Iraq in the summer of 2006-2007; there was one casualty per week on average. Fortunately things changed on the cusp of the surge, but it was a very difficult experience. At the time, he felt like he was not going to do a full career. But he also knew he didn't have anything setup to do next. So he signed up to do three more years doing security in the Seattle area. It was great to continue service and also have time - he didn't find a wife or a career, but he DID stay in contact with the president of Hire Heroes. Nathan asked him - what should I look to do, and that's when he found out about Hire Heroes and the opportunity there.
  • 33:30 - What was your first job search like, and how did you end up at Hire Heroes USA?
    • It was a very stressful year - even though I intended to get out at the end of 3 years and had a set date, I didn't plan well and focused on my current role. Some was fear based, and some was not knowing what to do. He waited for something to come up and it was an ineffective way to move towards a transition. He lost about 10 lbs in his last year in the Marine Corps and realized it was all due to stress.
    • So he started reaching out to friends and fellow Marines, shared his resume and got direct (though harsh) feedback. And this is how he found his current role. He had another offer of working on base, and he went with the one he knew and trusted and was inspired by the mission.
  • 36:30 - What are some signs that a veteran may like working at a non-profit, and that they may like a COO role?
    • He was fortunate to do both. There are plenty of operational roles outside of non-profits, and operational roles outside of COO. If you're going to a large company, they won't hire a COO straight out of the military. you need to know your skills and where it fits in. For him it was a perfect fit - joining a 7 person non-profit, and grow it to over 90 full time employees over 7 years. He was able to grow alongside the organization.
    • That said, most NCOs and officers will have the leadership experience - you just have to marry it with some skill sets. Budgeting, quickbooks, salesforce CRM or something like that... these are good and important technical skills.
    • It was appealing to me to be able ot be nimble like a startup and constantly improve but also be on the non-profit side. We work with scarce resources and solve tough problems for people,.
  • 39:45 - What resources - books, programs, conferences, etc - have you found helpful in your civilian career that you would recommend to veteran listeners?
    • he was fortunate leaving the Marine Corps that the University Of Georgia had a great program of a Master's of Public Adminitration as a 3 year program (instead of 2) while working full time. It was mutaully beneficial between employement and educaiton. What he learned on the job he shared with classmates; what he learned in school he used to help the non profit. This helped a lot with non-prfit budgeting and grant writing. You can read books on this but he was more comforable being taught it.
    • The second was learning from people who are doing. He put his head down for Quickbooks and bugeting and having people beteter than him around him. He realized none of it is complex - there are things that are very complex, but most non-profits you need to be able to learn and the himilty to know you don't know everything.
  • 43:17 - Final words of wisdom?
    • He would recommend a book that is co-authored by General Mattis - Warriors and Citizens. Is there a gap between the miltiary and teh civiilan sector. There are structural challenges related to transition -it's not jsut that companies don't appreciate the military. There are a lot more structural elements taht won't be solved by governement transition programs or even non-profits. There are plenty of resources out ther eand people on your side, but ifyou don't have a narrow vision of what you want so you can focus - if you're open to everything - you need to be focused to find what you want.

“I think the biggest thing is finding something you're passionate about and really going all-in on it. There's no lack of different ways to become an astronaut. If you look at the resumes of people that were just selected, Navy SEALS, Pilots, MIT Professors, engineers at SpaceX, people who specialize in Marine Biology, Doctors - so there's no lack of options on how to get there. I think the biggest thing is just finding what you're really passionate about and going all-in on it."
- Dr. Scott Washburn

Dr. Scott Washburn is a Radiation Effects Engineering Manager at SEAKR Engineering. He started out at the University of Colorado, Boulder, after which he served in the Navy as a Submarine Officer for five years. When he first left the Navy he worked as a Thermal and Project Engineer at SSL (Space Systems Loral), after which he returned to the University of Colorado Boulder for his Masters, and then his PhD in Aerospace Engineering. Since then he has worked as Chief Engineer at Geryon Space Technologies, as well as a research engineer at NASA. Scott was also one of the 50 finalists of the astronaut selection program.

The top 2 reasons to listen to this episode is:

1. Shooting for the stars: Scott always wanted to be an astronaut and he pursued this career with all he had.  He was one of 50 finalists... from 18k applicants (0.27% of all applicants). He's a case study in setting crazy goals and fighting with everything you've got to pursue them.
2. Passion: Scott talks about pursing one's passion with vigor, and it's inspiring no matter what your desired career path.

Our Sponsor:

• Audible is offering one FREE audio book to Beyond the Uniform listeners. You can claim this offer here, and see a list of books recommended by my guests at BeyondTheUniform.io/books

Selected Resources

• An Astronaut's Guide to Life on Earth: What Going to Space Taught Me About Ingenuity, Determination, and Being Prepared for Anything

Show Notes

Note: I've typed these notes during my interview with Josh, so they may not completely represent his words, and may contain spelling and grammar errors. My intention is to provide veterans with a quick reference to see the gist of our conversation, along with timestamps to hear Josh's actual advice in his own words within the interview.

• 3:43 - Scott's bio
• 4:40 - There’s a story about you and your wife Amanda, summiting Mt. Bierstadt, a German Shepherd, and the Ellen Degeneres - could you share a bit about what happened?
  • A 14er is a mountain that is over 14k feet tall; it's big in Colorado. Back in 2012, his wife and he went to climb Mt. Bierstadt. They were planning on doing two peaks in the same day (Mt. Evans). They got off course in the traverse and his wife spotted a dog. She had found a big, German Shepherd tucked under the rocks. As they got close, they realized she was injured. They tried to carry her, but the terrain was rough and they weren't able to make it work. They found a park ranger further down the mountain, but he wasn't able to help. So they drove back to Denver, calling rescue groups along the way, but weren't able to get any help. So when they got home, they posted about the dog on 14ers.com, and posted the location and started to organize a rescue group. They received a hug outpouring of support, and went back up with a group of 8. They found the dog, loaded her into a backpack and took turns hiking her out. They took her to a vet (who they had met on 14ers.com) and helped her recover.
  • They figured that was the end of the story. However, it reached it's way to the local news that evening. From that point it exploded, which they hadn't anticipated. Part of the reason it exploded was because they were contacted by the dog owner, who wanted the dog back. They wanted to know what had happened first, and it seemed like the owner had been stuck in a storm and decided to leave the dog behind. However, since the owner hadn't tried to get the dog back or rescue the dog, they were uncomfortable returning the dog. They went on Good Morning America and then the Ellen Degeneres show.
• 12:28 - For an active duty audience, how would you explain what you do for a living?
  • The short version is that his team tests and analyzes how electronics work in a space radiation environment. There's a HUGE radiation environment in space - more than xrays at a doctor of a nuclear power plant. The space environment is constantly bombarded by these atomic nuclei. They're so energetic they'll go straight through a person or piece of electronics and drive a huge amount of damage. So his group looks at this damage, and analyzes the electronics at his company and see how they respond and fare
• 14:28 - How did you decide to leave the Navy?
  • It was a really tough decision. He had initially signed up only intending to do five years. However, he LOVED his time in the Navy and the submarine force. He loved the job, missino, and people. So appraoching the end of his term, he struggled with whether to stay in or get out. The reason to get out was because he always wanted to be an astronaut. And he knew he could get there as a submarine officer - back in 2000 Captain Steven Bowen was selected, and one more recently. However, he wasn't sure how to standout amongst other submarine officer. So to improve his odds, he decided to get out go into the industry.
• 16:20 - When you decided to leave the submarine force, did you have a clear idea of what you wanted to do?
  • His first job at SSL was fortuitous. There was another former submariner who worked there and was familiar with what veterans were capable of. He worked with a recruiting agency that had worked with him previously and they made the connection. He didn't have a clear picture of when he left how he would go about doing this. So he was employed for a while after leaving the service because he hadn't planned properly. He didn't realize what opportunities were out there, and didn't start this process until he got out.
  • There wasn't a clear-cut path to be an astronaut, so had to really experiment
• 19:14 - Role at SSL
  • It was very different than my role in the submarine force, where I was mostly operatinally focused. At SSL it was heavy engineering - math, computer models of satellites & thermal systems and how they worked together, and what temperature they'd operate at in orbit. It was a massive transition.
  • One thing that motivated him to go back ot grad school was being in a hard engineering environment, and my skills from undergrad were pretty soft. After over a year I decided to go back to grad school (starting two years after he started working). he had started trying to work nights & weekends. So decided to switch to full time
• 20:57 - Straight to education vs. industry experience
  • 50/50 on this - it was very beneficial to get experience in industry first
  • But if you have a really good idea of what you want to do or the field, going back right away is a good way to go
• 22:18 - How did you decide to pursue a PhD in Aerospace Engineering?
  • It was an idea of getting a PhD but not the primary plan. He originally intended to go back to industry with his masters
  • After his first year he was given a National Defense Fellowship; the nice thing was that it gve him the opportunity to study any topic that he wanted to. He had gone to grad school wanting to merge nuclear background with aerospace - space radiation, space nuclear reactors, etc. There wasn't a graduate program for this, but the fellowship gave him the opportunity to forge his own path.
  • his dissertation; Magentic fields to sheild humans from space
• 24:30 - What advice do you have for veterans wanting to pursue a PhD?
  • One nice thing about being a veteran in a program like this is that you can get down to business and knock it out. I did mine in two years, which is a pretty short time frame. Most service members I met were the same. It's different if yuo're more focused and willing to get the job down
  • My advice is to not get it just to get it; make sure you're really interested in it, because as soon as you leave with your PhD, that sets what you will do; it is difficult to branch out from there
• 25:56 - What led you to astronaut training?
  • It's not really a training program. He submitted his application early in 2016 for the group that was selected this year. It was 18k people who put in for the application down to 120 semi-finalists who come in for a 3-day interview, and 50 people for a weeklong interview to select 12 people this year. They'll go on a  two year training cycle: wilderness survival, underwater vehicle egress, Russian language and international space station
  • It was a lifelong dream, so he plotted along the way his interests and what things he could add on to help him get there. Working in the space industry was 1. Being a submarine officer was another one (and this had led him to submarines in the first place, in addition to serving his country). he tried to find little things along the way - private pilots license, scuba certification. They were things I wanted to do anyways, but found them exciting and worked
  • It started as a standard job application - follow-up questions, medical requirements, if yo8're a pilot or not. They had over 50 HR specialists to go through all the resumes
  • The 3-day interview process was one of the coolest processes of his life. It's covered by NDAs so he can't talk in detail but they evaluate screening you as a person, medically (medical requirements are VERY strict) for example kidney stones, you're disqualified if you've ever had them.
• 31:06 - What advice do you have for veterans wanting to go this route?
  • The biggest thing is finding something that you're passionate about and going all-in on it. You've got Navy SEALs, pilots, MIT professors, SpaceX engineers, Doctors, Marine Biologists - there's no lack of options on how to get tehre. it's about finding out what you're passionate about and going all-in on it. Finding people who can push themselves constantly - constantly work to improve yourself and make yourself better. Find things challengin that push your skills and boundaries.
• 33:27- What was it like not getting in the final stage
  • It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. When I got the news it was in one way a crushing blow - I spent so many years in pursuit of this goal. At the same time it was ok. When you make it to the final 50 every person there is absolutely incredible. It's something they've been pursuing their entire life as well.
  • When he wasn't selected it was hard to be too upset when he saw the people who were selected; so it was hard to be too upset about it. And now he has a few friends who are astronauts as well, which is very cool
  • At some point when you're swinging for the fences and the odds of getting selected are so low you have to temper your expectations so if it doesn't work out you're still ok with everything.
• 37:15 - What resources - books, websites, programs - have been helpful to you in your civilian career that you would recommend to listeners?
  • Didn't have a ton of resources that I relied on
  • One thing I've gone back to a lot lately is Chris Hatfields - an astronauts guide to life on earth
  • His path to becoming an astronaut - there are so many snippets of wisdom that apply to every day life
  • how to go after things in a way that helps you in your pursuit. Really good life l
• 38:27 - Work at NASA
  • A co-investigator, while researching at the University of Colorado. Very cool being able to work with the NASA research centers. IF you are really interested in pursuing this path, tehre are a lot of great opportunities to get involved. If you're undergrad or grad school, you can do co-ops that are a great way to get your foot in the door. Or if you reach out and tap into the NASA network. Everyone there is so excited and passionate about what they do, they are more than willing to share their experience with people
  • Find the person at NASA doing it and reach out; you'll be surprised that they'll reach back out
• 40:04 - Final words of wisdom for active duty & veteran listens?
  • The biggest thing is to find your passion
  • It's wortwhile, espeically in times of transition if you're on active duty looking to get out and at different points - take stock of your world and make sure you're striving for those things. I was taking a look at what I liiked about th emilitary when I got out and looked to try to fit them in my life when I got out. That was one of the big struggles - many things I loved in the service Ic ouldn't find at my job. Realized I needed to find these in outside of owrk activities. Espeically a sense of service. This is my biggest peice of advice - see what you like and find how to get more of

“There are people who have - in their head - ideas that they think are ridiculous; dreams that they're afraid to pursue because of failure; because we're all afraid to fail. But while you have that safety net, go ahead an investigate it - dig into it deep, and then make a plan. Work backwards: this is the goal, assess what you have, and what do you need. And sometimes with plans you have to go back and course correct. Be OK with that. It's not a bad thing sometimes. We often beat ourselves up because we made a plan and it didn't go the way we thought it would - but that's OK. Always look back, reflect and see how you can grow from this."
- Dr. Felicia Haecker

Dr. Felicia Haecker is the President of Haecker Associates Consulting, CEO of Dog Tag Divas, and Adjunct Professor at Brandman University, where she also received her Doctor of Education and Organizational Leadership. She started out in the Air Force, where she served for 12 years along with her husband, who served in the Air Force for 15 years. She faced many challenges after her separation from the military, and ultimately chose to pursue her Ed.D on female veterans transitions into post secondary education. Using this understanding of transitions, she now seeks to help other veterans diagnose where they are and construct a plan to reach their goals.

She has made herself available to the Beyond the Uniform community by email at shaecker@yahoo [dot] com

The top 2 reasons to listen to this episode is:

1. A road of discovery - Felicia articulates so well what I - and so many of my guests - have experienced about a meandering road from the military to finding our career. She talks about taking leaps of faith, making mistakes along the way, but learning and being ok with those mistakes. Felicia and her husband left the Air Force after 12 & 15 years of service, respectively. They purchased an RV, and with their newborn daughter spent a year traveling the United States. This was the starting point of a journey that would lead Felicia to pursue her doctorate.
2. Advice on transitions - Felicia did her doctorate work on the female veteran transition into post secondary education. She has also advised and mentored many veterans about this process, and has fantastic advice about how to avoid common mistakes in this transition.

Our Sponsor:

• Audible is offering one FREE audio book to Beyond the Uniform listeners. You can claim this offer here, and see a list of books recommended by my guests at BeyondTheUniform.io/books

Selected Resources

• Roadmap: The Get-It-Together Guide for Figuring Out What to Do with Your Life - a great book to help you figure out what to do with your career

Show Notes

Note: I've typed these notes during my interview with Josh, so they may not completely represent his words, and may contain spelling and grammar errors. My intention is to provide veterans with a quick reference to see the gist of our conversation, along with timestamps to hear Josh's actual advice in his own words within the interview.

• 3:10 - Felicia's bio
• 4:03 - How would you explain what you do
  • Every veteran makes a transition
  • Her and her husband realized they transitioned out of a community that was safe and comfortable. After their transition, a lot of people didn't understand their background and they were definitely out of their comfort zone.
  • This applies to the families as well - they have to deal with their significant other
• 6:15 - How she divides her time
  • HCC & Dog Tag Divas are both emerging. She was diagnosed with PTSD and ADHD, and is learning there are things she needs to do to stay on task. Must do / should do / could do "To do lists" dominate her schedule on bright orange post its.
  • She has two kids, and it's a matter of taking advantage of time when she has it - time in line at Starbucks, at piano practice. Sometimes she
• 8:12 - How did you decide to leave the military?
  • It wasn't an easy decision; she was an Army brat, with both parents in the military. She followed her dad all over Europe as an Army kid.
  • She recognized on her own she wasn't ready for college, and didn't want to waste her parents money
  • Decided to join the military - originally the Marine Corps - but wasn't treated seriously during the process and saw the Air Force recruiter on her way out. The military was safe and something she understood.
  • She was a photographer, and wanted to try something else out - she loved the military but wanted to try something new
  • When she found out she was going to have a mother, she wanted to be the mother she didn't have. It would be tough to do both the military and a mom, so her and her husband decided she would transition. Her husband had a similar background, so they both decided - at 12 & 15 years - to get out of the military.
  • They made the goal of each of them finishing their master's degree prior to leaving the military, which lead for a rushed schedule leading up to departure
  • They purchased a 35' RV, and spent a year traveling the United States.
• 11:46 - Advice for figuring out when to leave the military
  • Investigate the feeling - if you feel like you need to move on, give that room. See if you can switch jobs within the military, but if you can't find it start figuring out how to make it happen.
  • She recently worked with someone who decided to open a catering business. But you need to do EVERYTHING you can to investigate this right now - intern, or find a temporary job. This person learned it wasn't what they wanted to do it. So investigate every avenue you can. Call people who do that job (better yet a veteran who does it) and get a feel for what it is like.
  • Harness your power - my power right now is I have a paycheck and roof over my head. This is what I have - what is it I need. Capitalize on your opportunities for growth. I want to have this much money in the bank, this much education, talk to them and get buy-in with the family. Sometimes you need to go back and course correct
  • The Hack Process:
    • H - Harness your power. You have SOME power in the situation
    • A - Assess your resources. What do you have on hand that will propel you forward, and what do you need to gather to get to that goal
    • I - Identify them. The people and resources that will help you and you need to get in your corner to get there
    • C - Capitalize on the opportunity
  • You may be more comfortable right now than you realize - any stress you can take
  • Give yourself permission to recognize how difficult the transition is, but don't wallow in it.
• 22:59 - How would you describe your path from the military to deciding to pursue a PhD?
  • They were stationed in Missouri. They got in their RV and didn't know what to do next. They decided to visit her parents in Oklahoma. They piecemeal the first part of the trip together, visiting diners and different sites.
  • They noticed in their journey there was a subculture of veterans everywhere they went.  She noticed many experienced difficulty, and many were on the verge of homelessness. She realized that she wasn't the only one who felt challenged in the transition - there were many other veterans like this.
  • Along the journey she became pregnant with their second child. As they were unpacking their house in Georgia, her husband received a job offer in Sacramento. So they packed up their house and moved cross country with their two kids
  • After five days as a stay-at-home mom, she realized she couldn't do it. It was more difficult than her three deployments. She saw a commercial for a doctoral degree, and wanted to give it a try. Her children were 9 months and 3 when she started - it was crazy but she did it. And her husband just received his degree from the same program. He saw the growth and self discovery journey she went through and that motivated him to do it as well
• What was the PhD process like for you?
  • She views herself as very lucky. Her program was very creative, and she was able to chart what she was interested in - which was transition in veterans. She was able to research, write papers, and do whatever she wanted. It became addicting, because she kept finding more and more information, but didn't find the readily available resources she wanted for veterans. It felt like a well-kept secret and she didn't want it to be like that.
  • She kept getting assignments that kept her digging and before she knew it she stood back and realized what she wanted to go after
  • When she left, her resume was good, professionally she was ready to transition. No one spoke to her heart and mind transition, that you never receive when leaving the military.
• 37:40 - In your work with veterans, what are common problems you see them facing in their civilian career?
  • She teaches a masters class on Leadership. One thing she has her students do (and she does as well) is Morning Pages. You put the pen on paper for 20 minutes and you just write non-stop. She didn't think it would work and the first two weeks were random song lyrics, shopping lists, and babble, but at the end of two weeks the cob webs went away and certain things came into focus.
  • She kept doing it and started to get clarity on different items - things she hadn't thought about in years. It's completely free and is an easy way to make progress in thinking through issues. Just write about whatever comes to mind - no matter how random. Keep with it and you'll find clarity. Supposed to do it first thing in the morning, as soon as she wakes up.
  • There's a book called Road Map. There was a PBS show called Road Trip Nation and they actually wrote a book "the get it together guide for what to do with your life" - it will inspire you but also give you a roadmap.
  • A mentor would be a GREAT addition for veterans. Help you navigate the new waters and identify what is important to you.
• Common mistakes that veterans face
  • The adage that "the grass is greener" is definitely true. Without someone telling you what to do, there is also a challenge of autonomy and having to do everything on your own.
  • She encourages people to imagine that you were dropped into the center of England. Yes - they speak English, but there are different words, customs, and norms. You still need to learn a lot - and it's like this with a military transition
  • Some people may not understand your life and may ask you offensive questions like, "Have you ever killed someone." Try to remember it's out of ignorance and curiosity and not malice.
  • She has found in Mommy Groups that things that are earth shattering to other people are not so for her... she has to remember that "my journey is different." It may take time to find your time. Observe how they interact with other people.
  • Emotional Intelligence will be key too and this was something she had to learn
• 44:50 - What can we do to help veterans who are struggling in their transition
  • Her local VA has a special office to help veterans who are homeless and she is looking at how to help with this
  • Sometimes they just need someone to listen to them
  • The TAPs programs send a LOT of information towards veterans, and going and talking and sharing there could help a lot
  • She was surprised that she was diagnosed with PTSD, even though she had taken many disturbing photos as a photographer on active duty.
• 49:20 - Final words of wisdom?
  • If you've been listening to this and thinking of an idea and not sure if you should do it - give yourself permission to try. It's ok to be afraid to fail - that's ok. If you think about it - the times you succeed you probably didn't think about how you got there... you didn't think about how you got there. It's only when you fail that you do. But this is when we learn - from this failure. It may work, it may not, but it's ok. Have more than an A-D plan - there are 26 letters in teh alphabet. At the end of the day, try to do what makes you happy.

“I leveraged the skills that I learned in the Marine Corps, and literally I just started kicking in doors. When I got to New York I had to figure it out and I had to figure it out quickly. Again, it was all about establishing that network. I called people, I learned from them. And I started to whittle down exactly what I wanted to do... There are things that a veteran can control and things they can't control. I couldn't control my technical proficiency at the time because I had just gotten out of the Marine Corps. But - darn it - I could control how hard I could work. So I was the first one in in the morning, I was the last one to go at night, and I was studying like crazy."
– Christopher Perkins

“I leveraged the skills that I learned in the Marine Corps, and literally I just started kicking in doors. When I got to New York I had to figure it out and I had to figure it out quickly. Again, it was all about establishing that network. I called people, I learned from them. And I started to whittle down exactly what I wanted to do... There are things that a veteran can control and things they can't control. I couldn't control my technical proficiency at the time because I had just gotten out of the Marine Corps. But - darn it - I could control how hard I could work. So I was the first one in in the morning, I was the last one to go at night, and I was studying like crazy."
– Christopher Perkins

Christopher is the Managing Director and Global Head of OTC Clearing at Citi and founder of Citi’s Military Veterans Networks. He started out at the Naval Academy, after which he earned a Master of Arts in National Security Studies from Georgetown University. He then served as an officer in the Marine Corps for over nine years. After the Marine Corps, Christopher worked at Lehman Brothers as their US Head of Derivatives Intermediation. He is also the co-founder of Veterans On Wall Street - an initiative dedicated to honoring former and currently military personnel by facilitating career and business opportunities in the financial services industry.

The top three reasons to listen to today’s show are:

1. Senior finance - Christopher is very high up at one of the most respected financial institutions in the world, so if you’re at all interested in the Finance Industry, this is worth a listen
2. Explanation - Christopher gives great advice on how a veteran can explain their background. He managed to land a senior position at Lehman brothers directly out of the military. He was the ONLY person to do so without an MBA - not only not having an MBA, but competing against valedictorians from top business schools. He did it by being an expert storyteller, and his advice for veterans is fantastic
3. Financial Collapse - Christopher talks about what it was like on wall street during the financial collapse and how his military training paid off, keeping him calm and stable when the world around him seemed to be falling apart.

Our Sponsor

Audible is offering one FREE audio book to Beyond the Uniform listeners. You can claim this offer here, and see a list of books recommended by my guests at BeyondTheUniform.io/books

Selected Links

• Citi's Veterans initiative, Citi Salutes, is a great program for veterans to consider.
• Veterans on Wall Street (VOWS) - symposiums, job fairs, and fundraising by a consortium of financial services firms
• A recent article on Christopher by Military.com: http://www.military.com/hiring-veterans/resources/citigroup-veteran-hiring-program-spotlight.html
• Book Recommendations
  • Liar’s Poker (Norton Paperback) - for those interested in a career in the finance industry, this is recommended by Christopher
  • Market Wizards, Updated: Interviews With Top Traders
• Newspapers Christopher recommends
  • The Financial Times
  • The Wall Street Journal
• TV Programs Christopher recommends to see how current events are affecting markets
  • CNBC
  • Bloomberg TV

Show Notes

• 2:31 - Christopher's background
• 3:15 - How Christopher decided to leave the Marine Corps and how he approached this decision
• 5:55 - How Christopher managed to directly from the Marine Corps to a very senior role at Lehman Brothers
• 12:53 - How Christopher would explain his role as the US Head of Derivatives Intermediation at Lehman Brothers
• 17:13 - How a call from Citi changed Christopher's career
• 18:15 - What life was like during a financial collapse, and how Christopher's military training paid off. Also a look at how Christopher has given back through Veterans on Wall Street (VOWS) and Citi Salutes
• 26:48 - The biggest advice Christopher would give to Veterans in finance or those considering a career in finance
• 29:23 - Some common misconceptions and mistakes Christopher sees when it comes to veterans
• 31:36 - Christopher's thoughts on the MBA and how valuable it is within the world of finance
• 34:35 - A few possible career paths to the role of Managing Director at a major company like Citi
• 36:38 - What Christopher's day-to-day life looks like as a Managing Director at Citi
• 40:05 - Christopher's recommended resources for those veterans considering a career in finance
• 42:06 - A look at mistakes Christopher has made and what he learned from them
• 44:09 - In what ways Christopher felt ahead of his civilian counterparts, and it what ways he felt behind
• 46:30 - Christopher's final words of wisdom

“When I got out after 12 years I was married, we had our first child and were looking at having our second child. I was very focused on a career that would pay me what a Major with twelve years in was currently paying me. I wasn't so interested in taking a step back and thinking about these questions of what am I good at, and what do I enjoy doing and what do I think is important. What most people don't think about is that you have forty more years in your career - so really, that's the right time to start asking yourself these questions - what do you enjoy doing, what are you good at?”
- Joshua Jabin

Joshua Jabin is the Chief Operations Officer (COO) at Travis Manion Foundation. He started out at the Naval Academy, after which he served in the Marine Corps for 12 years, first as a Aviation Supply Logistics Officer, obtaining his MS in Operations Analysis at the Naval Postgraduate School, and teaching Mathematics at the Naval Academy. After his transition to the civilian sector, Joshua worked as a Senior Management Consultant at the ReefPoint Group, before joining the Travis Mountain Foundation about 2.5 years ago.

The top 2 reasons to listen to this episode is:

1. Passion + Skills - Joshua works for a incredible organization and resource for veterans. They have a transition workshop that doesn't focus just on finding the right job... they focus on helping you find the intersection of passion and skills in your personal and professional life. Joshua LIVES this, as he initially took a 1/3 pay cut from his initial consulting job, in order to follow work that he knew would be more fulfilling for him and his family.
2. Great resource for veterans - whether you're on active duty, recently transitioned, or transitioned decades ago, The Travis Manion Foundation has a lot to offer and is an organization worth taking a look at.

Our Sponsor:

• Audible is offering one FREE audio book to Beyond the Uniform listeners. You can claim this offer here, and see a list of books recommended by my guests at BeyondTheUniform.io/books

Selected Resources

• Brothers Forever: The Enduring Bond between a Marine and a Navy SEAL that Transcended Their Ultimate Sacrifice - Travis' father wrote this book about two roommates who gave their lives defending their country
• Team Red White and Blue
• Team Rubicon - deploy veterans after natural disasters
• Hire Heroes USA - great resource for veterans. TMF is a great Step 1, when veterans leave he recommends them to Hire Heroes USA (resumes, job placement)

Show Notes

Note: I've typed these notes during my interview with Jacob, so they may not completely represent his words, and may contain spelling and grammar errors. My intention is to provide veterans with a quick reference to see the gist of our conversation, along with timestamps to hear Jacob's actual advice in his own words within the interview.

• 3:50 - Joshua's background
• 4:35 - What would you want listeners to know about the Travis Manion Foundation?
  • Membership veteran organization to develop character in the next generation to help communities. They want to create THRIVING communities - creating meaning through serving others, relationships, and engagement (leveraging your strengths).
  • Travis was a Naval Academy Graduate (2004) and 1st Lieutenant in the Marine Corps. He was killed on April 29, 2007 on his second tour overseas. His mother started the foundation to help other veterans and families of fallen veterans
  • Today they are an organization of 90k people worldwide
  • Their goal is also to help create the next generation of leaders
  • For all veterans who come back and want to see how they can continue to serve, they also provide a way they can do this and have that same sense they had in the military
• 9:45 - What is the TMF transition workshop program?
  • It is VERY different from a lot of other great transition programs out there - they don't focus solely on the career piece. Their goal is to help veterans have a successful post-military life - meaning, relationships, engagement. Both in your career and how you can continue to grow.
  • After this, they help veterans identify their strengths and passions, and how to incorporate into their story, along with their training and education. This helps them network, communicate as they find their ideal job
  • The final piece of the transition has successful veterans come in and share what they do and what they've learned, and how that relates to their passion and strengths (to see options)
  • There are other additional workshops - resumes, interviewing, etc
• 16:16 - If someone listening would like to get involved with or help support the Travis Manion Foundation, how can they do that?
  • Not exclusive to veterans - we have "inspired civilians" as well
  • If you're 1 year out from leaving or recently left the military and need help in the career transition, you can find info about attending workshops and also resources directly on the website
  • There's also info on the website about their character workshop
• 18:00 - For someone listening on active duty, how would you explain what you do?
  • He is the #2 at the Travis Manion Foundation. Started 2.5 years ago, and worked way quickly to COO (initially Chief of Staff)
  • He is the #2 next to the CEO
  • Their President is very external - partnership & fundraising meetings, presenting at conferences. So Joshua's role is about overseeing daily operations - finances, budget, curriculum, operations... all the daily operations
  • They have Regional Heads throughout country and various departments - his job is to hold them all together
• 19:46 - How would you explain a COO role? What does this look like on a day-to-day basis?
  • Every day is different - this is one thing he really loves
  • 5-5:30 - wake up before kids and check email (West Coast team emailed through the night)
  • Spend time with kids
  • When in at the office, every Monday morning he (and his program & department heads) put out their top 3 list for the week
    • This week: #1 Program evaluation, #2 Developing Curriculum, #3 - 1st Spartan Leadership summit
  • Review finances
  • 2:30 - meet with Regional Heads to review big picture anything that affects their programs
  • get home, play with kids, check email afterwards depending on the day
  • End of week they share a weekly summary. This allows to support as needed all the execution that occurs throughout the week
• 27:08 - You got out after 12 years of service. How did you think about transition from the military earlier, vs staying in for 20 years?
  • What he found from his transition - and working with thousands of vets who have transitioned - it's challenging no matter when you transition
  • After 12 years I felt too senior to go through the JMO Recruiters, but I wasn't senior enough for some of the other positions available
  • He started with a JMO recruiter - they were very knowledgeable and had great advice. TMF uses a lot of this info in their transition workshop as well now. But he knew it wouldn't be a good fit because Joshua wanted a small company rather than a large company. He would need to take a step back in terms of salary and authority / leadership when going to a larger company. However, there would be a larger runway to be able to build into a very senior role.
  • He realized there are other options: working for a smaller company (like Travis Manion Foundation) or starting your own company
• 30:18 - Big company v. small company.
  • He LOVED being a Marine, and is still a Reservist and loves it
  • It did get to a point where he was in a HUGE organization and realized he couldn't move the needle
  • Wanted to go to a small company where he could see a big impact from his work
  • He loves now that he will be there for a LONG time and enjoys seeing the impact of his work
• 33:32 - What is the ReefPoint Group?
  • It was started by three Naval Academy grads who started the year before him. He didn't know them at the Naval Academy, but heard about them while teaching math at the Naval Academy
  • He was applying to IBM, Booz Allen, etc and had several friends refer him to the owner of the ReefPoint Group
  • Met with Chris (using his network) and joined them - they were the smaller company he was looking for
  • It's a very bright team - a Management Consulting firm that focuses on data analytics, so different from traditional MBA Management Consulting type roles
  • Enjoyed it but quickly realized it wasn't his passion in life; many people were way ahead of him technically
• 35:50 - How would you explain to someone on Active Duty what you did as a Senior Management Consultant?
  • Was living in Annapolis as a subcontractor for a large organization and also at a hospital in San Diego. He would fly out every Monday and fly back red-eye on Thursday. He was doing consulting work for Navy Hospitals
  • It was important work, liked the people he worked with
  • When thinking about how he spent his time when he wasn't working, he was a "Character does matter" ambassador for the Travis Manion Foundation - this was his passion. He loved being a leader and a mentor
  • When he spoke with the family he found out they were looking for a #2
  • He wrestled with Travis Manion at the USNA - he was at an Army vs. Navy game and saw Colonel Manion. He told him "at some point I' going to come work for you full time"
  • Joshua though he wanted to make al to of money first and come work there. But Colonel Manion encouraged him to talk anyways
  • He didn't think there was any way he could do it (financially)
  • He was going to need to take a 1/3 pay-cut. He told his wife he couldn't do it, and she actually pushed him into it. He initially turned it down and couldn't sleep afterwards. His wife pointed out that they didn't need all the things they currently had and he decided to make the leap
  • His kids still have way more things than they need and he's never regretted it
  • Everyone deserves to be happy - we as veterans are so competitive and set such high bars for ourselves, always looking ahead. He stepped back and said - "when do I cash in these chips... how long to defer happiness"
• 47:20 - Are there any resources - books, podcasts, conferences, websites, trainings - that have helped you in your civilian career that you would recommend to veterans listening?
  • Hire Heros USA - great resource for veterans. TMF is a great Step 1, when veterans leave he recommends them to Hire Heroes USA (resumes, job placement)
• 48:47 - Final words of wisdom?
  • Life is short - you have to do what it takes to be happy
  • Career is important, salary is a factor, but step back and think what makes you happy.
  • Think about your strengths and passions and how to channel them to make a difference
  • Don't wait - don't think that if you grind it out you can do it later

For our 100th episode, I thought I would share my own story. 

Justin M. Nassiri is the Founder & CEO of StoryBox, a digital marketing start-up that helps companies transform their customers into brand ambassadors. He started out at the Naval Academy, after which he served five years as an officer onboard nuclear submarines. After his transition from the military, he went to the Stanford Graduate School of Business, after which he started StoryBox. He started Beyond the Uniform at the end of 2016 in an effort to help military veterans navigate their civilian career.

In this episode, I talk about:

1. My path from the military to today
2. Advice for veterans thinking of starting a company, including advice on building a technology, raising money and more
3. The story of how I started Beyond the Uniform, where we're at today and where we're going

Our Sponsor:

• Audible is offering one FREE audio book to Beyond the Uniform listeners. You can claim this offer here, and see a list of books recommended by my guests at BeyondTheUniform.io/books

Selected Resources

• Life Underwater: A Letter to First Time Founders
• Websites
  • TechCrunch, Pando Daily - actively avoid. Triggers too much comparison
  • Sales course - Grant Cardone University
  • IndieHackers - see range of ways in which people make money / engineering bias
• Books
  • Big magic
  • Helping 
  • So good they can't ignore you
  • Deep Work
  • Motivation - biographies; Tony Robbins - get brain used to thinking how great minds have
    • Shoe Dog
    • Elon Musk
    • Everything Store
  • Pandora’s Star
  • Hyperion
  • Shogun
  • Mistborn
• Podcasts
  • How I Built This - creativity, startups, entrepreneurship
  • Tim Ferris - general efficiency
  • Tony Robbins - motivation & mindset
  • Smart Passive Income - get ideas of ways to make money
  • EO Fire
• Life
  
  • Meditation
  • Coaching 
  • Therapy - CBT, Somatic Therapy. Want to make massive movement in short amount of time
• Seminars
  • The Landmark Forum - caveat: very sales-e, and will need to keep an open mind
  • Tony Robbins
    • Unleash the Power Within
    • Date with Destiny
    • Business Mastery
  • Non-violent Communication

“At that point we had about 25 employees and things seemed to be going well... and then the financial markets crashed and we went into a very deep, deep recession, right after I took over as President. So for a few years we had to weather the storm and it was a very difficult time. But I actually accredit a lot of [my success] to the military for what I was taught. So when the tough times came, I didn't start running - I just buckled down, dug my heels in and said - 'I'm smarter than this recession.'”
- Jacaob Martinez

Jacob Martinez is the President of Market Traders Institute, a trading technology and education company with over 200 employees. Jacob started out in the Army, where he served for 4.5 years in military intelligence achieving the rank of sergeant. He started out at Market Traders Institute as Vice President of Managed Accounts and has held virtually every position in the company.

Jacob has offered to connect with any veterans interested in speaking further. He is also offering a discount on his company's Forex training platform for any veteran. This is a great chance to investigate investing as a potential career, as well as learn a new skill set. You can contact him at jacob [at] markettraders.com

 

The top 2 reasons to listen to this episode is:

1. Extreme Growth - Jacob took over his family's business and grew them from 8 employees to 200 employees, with a 1,200%+ growth in revenue, attaining Inc Magazine's #592 fastest growing companies in America... it's pretty impressive!
2. Continuous Learning - rather than use his GI Bill for college, Jacob got out of his comfort zone and started growing his company. He is more committed to continuous learning than anyone I have met to date, and is constantly reading new books, attending new conferences, and seeking other ways to learn from others as quickly as possible. I find this inspiring, and his recommendations for resources are the best I've had on the show to date.

Our Sponsor:

• Audible is offering one FREE audio book to Beyond the Uniform listeners. You can claim this offer here, and see a list of books recommended by my guests at BeyondTheUniform.io/books

Selected Resources

• Books
  • John Maxwell - teaches leadership. There's never a time when you will have too many leaders. Staying focused on developing your leadership will create opportunities
    • Leadership Gold: Lessons I've Learned from a Lifetime of Leading
    • The 360 Degree Leader: Developing Your Influence from Anywhere in the Organization
    • The 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership: Follow Them and People Will Follow You (10th Anniversary Edition)
  • Who Moved My Cheese?: An Amazing Way to Deal with Change in Your Work and in Your Life - Jacob has read this book 10-12 times over his career. It talks about change and adapting to change.
  • Danger in the Comfort Zone: From Boardroom to Mailroom -- How to Break the Entitlement Habit That's Killing American Business - currently reading as part of book club, the danger of entitlement and living in the comfort zone
• Conferences
  • Tony Robbins - Business Mastery. this is pricey but the knowledge gained
  • Steven Covey - 7 habits of highly effective people
• Training
  • Sales - only way to grow business is to grow revenue. Only way to grow revenue is grow your knowledge
    • Cardone University
  • Karis school of negotiation
  • Fred Pryor seminars - 4-6 hour classes at local hotels or online, very good for constant development
  • Vistage - he meets with executives monthly to discuss areas of growth, culture and challenges of an executive
• Market Traders Institute - If you're wanting to trade forex, you need trading programs. They have forex foundation courses

Show Notes

Note: I've typed these notes during my interview with Jacob, so they may not completely represent his words, and may contain spelling and grammar errors. My intention is to provide veterans with a quick reference to see the gist of our conversation, along with timestamps to hear Jacob's actual advice in his own words within the interview.

• 4:06 - Jacob's background
• 5:04 - How Jacob would explain what he does for a living
  • Investor education and trading
  • Teach people how to trade in the Forex market, exchanging money.
  • When deployed, Jacob would stop in Germany before Afghanistan and would check the exchange rate. When he would stop there on the way back, the dollar would be worth a different amount. So he helps people understand and take advantage of this
  • Their in the business of changing people's lives through empowerment. His goal is to empower people - teach them to fish - and grow their financial income
  • Only about 30% of investors make money... their clients see about 57% of people making money
• 7:56 - Jacob's Growth & history getting there
  • His father started the company in 1994 and ran it until 2004
  • He grew it to 8 employees during that time and it supported his family
  • When Jacob left the military he joined the team of 8 people and took what he learned in the military - process & structure - and instilled it in the company
  • Within a few years did every position to understand the company and put structures in place and grew the company to 25 employees
  • In 2007 became President and things were going well... until the financial market collapse right after took over President. But his experience in the military in these tough times
  • 2008-2011 there was no growth - just a fight for survival. But at the end of 2011 had figured things out.
  • Since 2011 grown 1250% in revenue, 25 to 200 employees, listed on Inc 5k #592 fastest growing companies in America. He's also been committed to growth and listed top 10 places to work in Florida
  • He talks about constantly having to reinvent yourself as a company - what challenges you see at 25 employees is different than 100 employees
  • What was important to us and what we tracked a year ago isn't important today. And what we're monitoring today won't be important in the future. And what makes the difference is constant growth - grow or die. Not revenue but growing yourself personally.
• 15:10 - Resources
  • The key to his success has been the commitment to growth and learning
  • Success is a journey, not a destination - this qoute really shaped his look towards education
  • You will never reach "success" - it is constant evolution and growth - it's the only way to push the journey forward
  • We don't want to be first but we don't want to be third. There are a lot of successful business in this world. Go get a mentor and learn from successful people
  • Jacob doesn't have a college degree... but he reads a book a month. He read a study saying the Average American reads 1 book per year! If he reads one book per month, in 5 years he'll have read 60 books vs. 5! The knowledge he has acquired in this way has tremendously helped his company
  • Books
    • John Maxwell - teaches leadership. There's never a time when you will have too many leaders. Staying focused on developing your leadership will create opportunities
      • Leadership Gold -
      • The 360 degree
      • 12 laws of leadership
    • Who moved my cheese - Jacob has read this book 10-12 times over his career. It talks about change and adapting to change.
    • Danger in the comfort zone - currently reading as part of book club, the danger of entitlement and living in the comfort zone
  • Conferences - anything, industyr conference or leadership conference
    • Tony Robbins - Business Mastery. this is pricey but the knowledge gained
    • Industry-focused
      • Steven Covey - 7 habits of highly effective people
  • Training
    • Sales - only way to grow business is to grow revenue. Only way to grow revenue is grow your knowledge
    • Cardone University
    • Caris school of negotiation
    • Fred Pryor seminars - 4-6 hour classes at local hotels or online, very good for constant development
    • Vistage - he meets with executives monthly to discuss areas of growth, culture and challenges of an executive
  • If you're wanting to trade forex, you need trading programs. They have forex foundation courses
• 24:28 - The Book Club
  • Jacob has several of these at his company now. It started with his father, who would shut down the company for a few hours and discuss a few chapters of a book they were reading at the time
  • Before this he had only read a few books, and this catapulted his reading
  • It has helped his personal income and the business - continuously growing things
  • They accicdentally stopped this during the recession and realized the dramatic impact this had on their growth. How can you change if you're not learning?
  • He leads a book club every week - as an executive team they discuss the chapter they read. He asks his managers to hold their own book club pertaining to leadership or a technical skill in their department
  • Unless you highly recommend this, life will get in the way. We judge others by their actions and ourselves by our intentions. But an outsider looking in is actions... they speak louder than words.
  • You can't learn in the comfort zone or danger zone, but in the uncomfort zone. Skirting that line between danger and comfort.
  • Harmony doesn't create growth - dis-harmony does. Every major breakthrough came from his team being in dis-harmony. Something wasn't going well, and they tried something new and it created a breakthrough
• 31:43 - A challenge Jacob has faced in growing his company
  • He has faced MANY challenges in growing a company
  • Many of them have been internal - struggles with how he views himself, not being able to live up to external expectations
  • Every day he comes to work and faces challenges - he is now in the business of people and managing, so most of his challenges are people-related. At any given moment about 30% of the world is facing some sort of major personal crisis... that means 60 of his team members are facing a personal crisis (divorce, death, sick child, birth, etc).
  • Business isn't about money it's about developing people. In the military he thought business would be cut throat - but that's not what a successful business is. It's about helping and growing people. So in this respect the challenge is an opportunity to have a positive impact.
• 35:22 - Maintaining emotional stability amidst the chaos of growing a company
  • You need to keep things in perspective - 30% of the world is having a personal crisis right now
  • He has had many challenges - 2 tours in Afghanistan, medically discharged from a shartered vertabrae. These challenges, vs business challenges, are not nearly in the same bucket. These challenges are nothing compared to what others are facing. Seeing the problem as smaller helps him get to a solution quicker. The Sky is never falling.
  • When you take a step back and evaluate
  • Get a mentor - get several mentors. There is no such thing as a perfect mentor. Depending on the crisis you will have a different mentor - business colleague, someone outside the business, a family member. They help you put it in perspective because they're not emotionally involved with the problem
  • It can be VERY uncomfortable to be vulnerable around a mentor, but it will lead to growth. Maritial problems, money problems, relationship problems - when you let go of the fear, you get out of hell a lot quicker
• 41:22 - Creating systems in a company
  • Success is a formula, not a fantasy. Even gut feelings are intuitions that you prove with a process or strarety to see if it's valid
  • Nearly everythign at MTI is run through a process: even the amount of money they spend. Spending $X for marketing to get Y leads that dictates the # of sales people they have to the # of clients they bring onboard, and that determines the number of customer support which determines the amount of product developers... everything is connected
  • In the military, Jacob saw that everything was a system. He was in a company of people who were virtually identical, with very similar skill sets. This didn't happen by chance - it was a process the military created. If you continue to refine a process you'll get the same results
  • Business isn't a massive feeling of how you feel today. If you have a process and are dedicated to a process you are constantly refining and iterating, you realize that the business starts to operate at high efficiency. It doesn't matter how you feel today - it matters how you adhere to the formula. Of course emotions matter, but structure helps a company grow
  • Don't be so married to the process that you're blindly married to it - be committed to improving ti and
• 46:31 - Advice for aspiring entrepreneurs
  • If you're on active duty and thinking of transitioning, know that it's an emotional experience: exciting, fearful, and sad.
  • Jacob wasn't sure what to do - be an overseas contractor, use the GI bill to go back to college, or join his family business and not make much money
  • He opted for opportunity - he could make 10X more money as a contractor... but is that sustainable income in 10-20 years. For him, it was short-term.
  • Look for opportunity - for things outside your comfort zone. Sometimes small opportunities - like his with his family business - can become enormous.
  • If you're already out of the military and looking to grow: companies don't always communicate what really matters. If they tell a salesperson you need to have 80 calls a day to have 1 sale per day... so if you make 60 calls and make 1 sale, you may feel like you weren't successful. This comes from not properly defining what really matters - what matters is changing someone's life. If you make each call with this intention, it can change things. So find out what 1-2 items REALLY matter. "Moving the rock" - what are you doing that will "move the rock"
  • Force X Distance  = Work... what really matters is DISTANCE. It doesn't matter how much force... how far does it go
  • Are you moving the rock? find the 1-2 things that really affect this
  • Train yourself to separate yourself from other people. Grow your knowledge - it's not the companies responsibility to train the employee. Sometimes people will say 'if the company can't send me to a conference I won't do it' But if you take responsibility, this is what I need to grow... it changes everything. Do I need this knowledge or not? If yes - find a way to get there. This is how you separate yourself - the average person won't do this.
• 55:18 - Final words of wisdom
  • Thank you for your service
  • When I was in I thought I was just one of the bunch. But since then has realized that he has made a difference on the world. It is a real sacrifice to serve in the military... no matter what you're doing you're having an impact
  • Idea not coupled with action is not worth the brain cell it sits on
  • You can have the best idea, but if you don't act it doesn't matter. You're going to fail 100%. You will fail WAY more often than you succeed. there's no such thing as a true failure if you learn from it.
  • Act on your ideas, even if they're failures - learn from them and grow from them and eventually - it just takes one good hit. It's not luck - its a culmination of all your learnings from all your

“One of the first things I heard in grad school was: Get used to B's instead of A's. And I had a knee-jerk reaction to that. But you know what - I'm pretty OK with high B's now, and solving cool problems with cool people for a really cool company. So you just need to decide what trade-offs you're willing to live with in your life and divide and conquer.”
- Jared Wymer

Jared Wymer is a Program Manager for Global Talent Management at Amazon. Jared started out by enlisting in the Marine Corps, where he served for eight years in logistics, supply chain management, and intelligence, while also pursuing and receiving an undergraduate degree and MBA. Jared transitioned from the Marines into a PhD program, working concurrently in finance and as a Fellow for the Department of State. Since that time Jared started his own consulting company, Wymer & Associates, and joined Amazon. Jared is currently one year away from obtaining his PhD.

The top reasons to listen to this episode is:

1. Amazon - Jared talks about working at a fast-paced, top technology company like Amazon. He discusses interviewing tips and advice on finding the right job for you
2. Improving your working habits - being in Global Talent Management, Jared has a few tips for any veteran on how to grow, improve, and stay ahead
3. Education - Jared talks about getting a PhD while working full time, and advice on higher education.

Our Sponsor:

• Audible is offering one FREE audio book to Beyond the Uniform listeners. You can claim this offer here, and see a list of books recommended by my guests at BeyondTheUniform.io/books

Selected Links

• Resources 
  • Service 2 School - they were a big help in Jared finding his way to a PhD program
  • TheGradCafe.com - it's like Reddit, where ideas / questions are voted up or down. There's feedback on program, professors, and classes
  • Kanban Board - list of projects you will do this week, next week, tomorrow, etc. You limit the number of projects you can focus on. Trello is a great example of this.
• Books
  • The Wisdom of Insecurity - Jared's big takeaway was to not get too wrapped up around material possessions but to be present in one's life. It's easy to focus on moving the ball forward at every moment, but really being present in whatever you're doing
  • Deep Work - a great book at being more focused at work
  • The Everything Store - a biography of Jeff Bezos and look at Amazon

Show Notes

• 3:00 - Jared's background
• 3:36 - What Jared does
  • Program Management is similar to most NCO' responsibilities - a go between for people aligned with a certain program: how you promote someone, a piece of software, event planning, etc. In general it's aligning with one of these things and bringing the user's of the product and team responsible for it, and helping it come off without a hitch.
  • Talent Management is promotions, and what it looks like once you're hired (performance review, etc)
• 5:46 - Jared's road from the military to Amazon
  • Build your network while on active duty - talk to people who leave before you do; people at universities you're thinking of applying to; people who have jobs you admire
  • Jared didn't get into Amazon through a traditional recruiting process - it was through a friend of a friend, where he emailed his application directly to a hiring manager
  • This is true of his first job out of the military, which was in finance
  • Take every moment you have to think about where you might want to go (and where it is possible to go)
  • Figure out how to talk about what you did within the military - get comfortable telling your story in a way a civilian can understand
  • (10:30) Networking is rarely about me - it's about the person I'm speaking with and what value I can add for them
• 11:42 - What drew Jared to Amazon initially
  • Right time, right place - there was an opening right at the right time
  • Amazon has many of the positives from the military - there is a high standard for everything (it pays to be a winner)
  • Amazon does not have much red tape - you're encouraged to run fast and people are willing to take risks on you
  • Many Marines are offered jobs that don't take advantage of their full skill set... Amazon is the opposite of this. They understand where you've been and where you want to go. If you can prove yourself once or twice, they will make BIG bets on you
  • It's a great example of the importance of narrative - everything they do is based on an overarching vision document. Nothing gets done without a vision document - synthesize where you want to go and how you want to get there.
• 15:00 - Advice on applying to Amazon
  • The Star Interviewing method - make sure you have examples from your experience, what you did, what was the outcome, who did you do it with. You should definitely have this under your belt and know what you're doing.
  • Amazon, similar to the military, is very serious about their leadership principles. You can research this easily online, but every interview is structured around these leadership principles
  • Being able to talk about your resume in 2-3 different ways in this Star Format
  • Veterans shy away from "name dropping" or referring to leadership principles directly but people love it when you do this
  • There is a whole new veterans initiative at Amazon. You could apply at Amazon.com/jobs, but it's hard to make it through this way. But the link in the Resources section is much better
• 20:15 - Career Advice for veterans a few years out of active duty (how to avoid failing)
  • People at Amazon move at the speed of Amazon, and there is a lot of ambiguity in each role
  • The #1 best thing you can do is to - regardless of role or company - have a framework that reduces the ambiguity you're feeling. It will make you more happy & content, and will also help you move forward when you do have an ambiguous situation.
  • An example would be 3-4 conversations where everyone is brought together, and they decide as a group which action items are dropped from the communal list, and which are given priority. A timeline is established with all major deliverables and milestones, and 5 minutes of conversation around each milestone is re-grounding everyone in where they are in the process, and what steps are involved between different parts. It leads to a lot more collaboration and identifying of potential faults
• 26:52 - Pursuing a PhD while working full time
  • He started by creating a list of people who could provide honest feedback, people who could provide empathy, a career board of advisors, a list of people who are social support. Throughout the PhD process he has viewed a part-time or full-time job as a way to continue to network and have a social circle outside of the PhD process.
  • Jared has two brothers who have done this as well; while it comes at the expense of grades and research, it adds incredible professional experiences that may outweigh these (especially applying what you learn as you learn it)
• 31:38 - Advice for veterans considering pursuing a PhD
  • Service 2 School was a huge resource for Jared
  • Grad school / PhD program are going to seem like a lot. He found so much by calling the universities he was applying to and professors he would work with... it provided incredible insight (as well as an inside track to admission)
  • Many school website are not updated as frequently as you'd expect, so it's important to get the info first hand or from sites like TheGradCafe.com
  • Think 2-5 steps ahead so you can stay ahead of where you want to go
• 35:48 - Resources
• 40:26 - Final Words of Wisdom
  • A lot of time we don't talk to each other about our successes and failure, and our time in the military can feel like high school rather than getting to know people on a deeper level
  • Talk to each other about the highs and lows. Whether it is professional or educational or otherwise
  • In doing this you will come across people who tell you something cannot be done... be your own myth busters.  Whether this is learning a new skill, or reducing dependencies on others
  • Veterans have a lot of qualifications and this can make things scary and ambiguous - we don't know how to tell our story or brand ourselves. get out there, talk to people, get out of your current circle to figure out what you want to do and how to talk about your past.
  • Celebrate the small things in your life. When you're a young military member it may be about going out drinking. as you get older, intentionally celebrating the small wins - redo your resume, get into a program, meet new friends, etc - intentionally take time to reflect on the positive things in your life

This is the unedited, full interview of my conversation with Jonny Coreson. An edited, production version can be found at: http://wp.me/p7MLkR-wx

Jonny Coreson is currently on active duty in the military, and has started two different companies while on active duty. His current company - Blue Jacketeer - helps Navy Sailors prepare for their advancement exam. This is a great interview for anyone on Active Duty or recently separated who is interested in entrepreneurship.

Our Sponsor:

• Audible is offering one FREE audio book to Beyond the Uniform listeners. You can claim this offer here, and see a list of books recommended by my guests at BeyondTheUniform.io/books

Selected Links

• • Jonny's company: https://bluejacketeer.com/
  • Recommended Resources
    • Bunker in a Box - brick and mortar collaboration spaces as well as online resources with meet-ups for military aspiring entrepreneurs. Geared towards people on active duty, provides a 14-module course
    • The $100 Startup: Reinvent the Way You Make a Living, Do What You Love, and Create a New Future
    • Veterati - connects veterans with mentors in a desired civilian industry