Bleeding Daylight

Liz Vice is a reluctant gospel singer who yearns to see gospel justice fall across the earth. Her current single See the Day is a longing for that kind of justice.

Her first album, There's a Light was released back in 2012 and climbed to number six on Billboard's, Top Gospel albums, and 13 on the R&B chart. It's an incredible honour to welcome Liz Vice to Bleeding Daylight.

Website: https://www.lizvice.com/home

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LizViceMusic

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lizvice/

Emily Olsen

Wherever there shadows there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is bleeding daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.

Rodney Olsen

Liz Vice is a reluctant gospel singer who yearns to see gospel justice fall across the earth. Her current single See the Day is a longing for that kind of justice.

Rodney Olsen (00:00):

Some years ago, I discovered an album that quickly became a favourite of mine. I then started raving about my discovery to friends who began buying their own copies. That album was, There's a Light released back in 2012 by today's guest, Liz Vice. The album was rereleased in 2015 it climbed to number six on Billboard’s, Top Gospel albums and 13 on the R&B chart. There's been another album since then. The amazing Save Me and a few single releases. All of them displaying Liz's soulful vocals, bringing to life some incredible gospel lyrics. Liz, it's an incredible honour to welcome you to Bleeding Daylight. Thanks for your time.

Liz Vice (00:39):

Oh, thanks for your interest.

Rodney Olsen (00:41):

You're one of five children. That's a reasonable sized family. Was it a musical childhood for you?

Liz Vice (00:47):

Not really. I feel like the, the story goes for middle children. I pretty much kept to myself. I would sing for hours in the basement or my bedroom, but I mean my mom would sing throughout the house, but that slowly disappeared as working multiple jobs to raise five kids might cause one to stop singing at some point. But in my lineage there is a lot of musical influences. My grandfather played the guitar and sang, my grandmother played the piano and sang. Well my mom is from LA and she was moving towards a career in being a jazz musician, but my grandmother was very old fashioned. According to my mom, she was offered a record deal and my grandmother didn't really support it because she wanted my mom to be a wife and raise a family and so my mom kind of let go of that dream to honour her mother. And then my dad, who I didn't really grow up with was in a famous seventies and eighties band and even though he wasn't a part of my life, the music just passed through somehow. Osmosis is what I would like to say. Through the genes.

Rodney Olsen (02:15):

So, there was that influence all along but at that stage it wasn't something that you really took up apart from just singing around the home.

Liz Vice (02:23):

Oh no, I was, I was a shy kid and I don't really remember that, but I've had people who knew me when I was in kindergarten or middle school that have sent, sent me messages saying I never imagined the shy little girl would grow up to be singing on stage. Music was never ever a part of my plan. I always wanted to be an actress, be in movies, be a movie star. Mainly because I didn't see any characters that looked like me on screen and so I wanted to be that for other little Brown girls. But that's like leads into a whole other story of health issues that kind of put a halt to being able to go to college for theatre.

Rodney Olsen (03:09):

You were moving towards that kind of a life, but as you say, your plans had to take a back seat when you hit your late teens. Tell me about the health issues that you faced.

Liz Vice (03:18):

Yeah. So when I was 15 I was diagnosed with an auto immune disease and by the age of 19 I was on dialysis for kidney failure and for three and a half years, ups and downs, mostly downs with my health including congestive heart failure and becoming so ill from the process of dialysis that I was removed from the transplant list because my heart, I would have had to have a heart transplant as well. And so by the time I was 20 I kind of gave up on any dreams of ever going to school for theatre or being an actress or anything in that realm, let alone thinking I'd actually live to graduate from a four year university and my last year on dialysis, I don't know what happened. I started taking this medication for my heart, which is not the story of a lot of people that I met at the clinics.

Liz Vice (04:15):

When I would go for my dialysis sessions, a lot of people would pass away from the process or from the fear and that stopped coming because it was so exhausting on the body. And I got my kidney transplant and in that process I had gone, I had stayed in college the whole time so I have like an associate of arts associate of science, a certification in medical assisting and I graduated with my certification and being a medical assistant because I was like, I think I could do a year long program, even if I don't like live long enough to work in this degree and this certification, I could at least be a voice to people who are in the hospital who are losing hope. I don't, it's, like it feels like another life that I had. There are moments in my life today where I wish I was as strong as I was when I was actually on my death bed.

Liz Vice (05:18):

And so after I got my transplant, I went back to school a month later, which my doctors were not happy about and I graduated with this certification and being a medical assistant and just after working in the hospital with cancer patients, it just felt too close to home being on the other side of the bed of people who literally were in my same situation four weeks prior, and I did that for a little while before I decided to take the leap to them go to film school because if I couldn't be in the movies, at least I could make the movies right. So that's what I decided to do.

Rodney Olsen (05:59):

That sort of medical condition that you went through, I guess would bring all sorts of things in in life into sharp focus when you're facing your own mortality

Liz Vice (06:09):

Especially at such a young age. I definitely feel like that keeps me living a quote unquote risky life, which feels counter intuitive to the American dream of working a nine to five and having a 401 K and getting married with two and a half children with a white picket fence. It just never seemed like a plan for me, especially not knowing how long I had in this life. So yeah, I went to film school and I worked on set and I would teach myself how to use software programs to create DVDs for short films. I shot and learn how to edit and sound design, all these tech things. I really love the technical parts of film. And now that I do music I love, because of this pandemic, I've been recording a lot at home, but before we get into that going to film school and then graduating and being selected to give the commencement speech and getting invited to work on a TV show for three weeks, that was a paid internship.

Liz Vice (07:20):

And then that leading to another job and that leading to another job and then having a pause. Which led to me singing on a church record that I never, I just, you know, I never ever wanted to be a singer, but for some reason this church that I had started going to, I just felt like this little tug to just sing harmonies in the background. That's it. I'm good. I'm going to work in film to pay off my debt, thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars in debt for going to film school. And then I would, you know, live my happily filmmaking, life struggle bus of being an artist

Rodney Olsen (08:09):

So that first entrance into music is really wanting to perhaps just sing harmonies, be in the background. And I guess that still shines through in your music, in that you're constantly collaborating with others. You're wanting others around you. You're not the typical frontwoman who just wants to say, I'm the singer. You're constantly bringing others into your music.

Liz Vice (08:33):

Yeah. I mean even to this day I work better with a second head and a second heart just because I can get so stuck on the little things and overcomplicate words for myself or ideas or a certain sound and not to mention feeling the pressure of having a certain image in the music industry that I, it just never felt like it was my identity, especially feeling like I was called, which is like a whole other thing that I wrestled with. So I started going to church at 14 years old and for six, seven, 10 years or so. It was a small church. We would sing out of hymn books sometimes we had a pianist, sometimes the pianist wasn't the greatest player, but we would all sing with our voices and you learn how to hear harmonies and you learn how to sing certain parts.

Liz Vice (09:31):

Never knew how to read music, but would take music classes to get that extra credit in university and then started going to another church because the church I was a part of was an older generation and I just wanted to make sure there are young people who wanted to pursue a relationship with Jesus that were my age, who also worked in the arts. I just needed to see that for myself and this particular community saying songs that felt real and human and that transcended any kind of faith practices with the in like the foundation of Jesus as the one who was the example of love for people. And I just would sing harmonies from the pier and I just, the tug got stronger and stronger and then I was like, okay, I've gone out to sing background vocals, which I never, I remember going to audition to sing on the worship team and I thought I was going to die.

Liz Vice (10:34):

And Josh White said, okay, like what's one of your favourite songs? I had practiced all these songs that I had learned from the hymn book and, and he asked if I wanted to sing one of his songs that he would sing during a Sunday service. And I said yes. And it went from singing background vocals to on Thursday night prayer to singing a verse or two or leading a song on a Sunday evening. And I just did that for myself, for the Lord. It was never anything that I thought I would end up doing for the past almost 10 years now.

Rodney Olsen (11:14):

So when was it that those people around you started to say, Liz, there's, there's something more than a background vocalist in you? When did they start to call that out?

Liz Vice (11:22):

Oh man, I remember that day. Like it was yesterday. My friend Joe, he was one of the worship leaders and he really wanted women to kinda be seen in the forefront as a church and leading songs. And so he asked if I would sing this song called Enfold Me. I did not want to do it. Like I thought I was going to have a heart attack, but for some reason my head shook. Yes, in agreement. Even though on the inside I was trembling and saying, what am I doing? What am I doing? And I remember the moment I finally saying, I felt like the room emptied. I felt like one, my pupils were getting smaller and smaller, so it was getting darker. Like I was about to faint and I just kept envisioning myself fainting off of stage into the front row and all of a sudden the room was empty and I just felt like I was singing for one.

Liz Vice (12:20):

Okay Liz, if you don't want to sing for the people, sing for one, sing for the Lord. And when the song was over, I was like covered in sweat. Like I felt like every pore on my body had opened up and after the church service had ended and the worship team is like leaving the stage as people are being released and putting chairs back. My friend Nancy walks on stage in tears and she's like, what was that? And I almost started crying but I didn't because I hate crying in front of people and I said I don't know. And every time I would lead a song at church it felt like the whole room stood still. And I know this because one of the pastors told me this, he was like when you started singing, no one got up. Like the whole room stood still.

Liz Vice (13:16):

And then my friends started saying maybe you should consider doing music. And then strangers started saying, I think there is a call over your life that but you have a wall up and I don't know what it's going to take for that wall to come down. And I had to start telling my friends, please stop telling me that music is my calling because I don't want to do that. And anytime a sermon would be taught at church about calling, I was hoping that it would be a form of release that I don't have to do music, that it could just be something I did on Sunday and that was fine and I could go and struggle and film cause I was still doing that, which is feast or famine until after working on a TV show, the pastor of the church asked if I wanted to sing on a church record and he asked me to sing the song that I sang at church.

Liz Vice (14:12):

That kind of started a whole movement of music and people loved that song. They loved that track. And Josh, the pastor would announce it from the pulpit that he was going to make a record for me. We're going to make a record for Liz, Vice Liz Vice Liz Vice. We're going to make a record for Liz Vice and my name is so easy to remember that. Well I just hated it when people would say Liz Vice Liz Vice Liz Vice. I just wanted to crawl up into a hole and hide. Yeah. And two years later I recorded my first record. There's a Light,

Rodney Olsen (14:49):

And this seems so opposite to to most of what we see in culture where people are grasping for fame. And we've seen lots of talent shows on television where people who obviously don't have a gifting will get up because they're so convinced and they're so grasping for it. But you are very hesitant to to put yourself in that spotlight. And I guess that again gives us a key to why you continue to collaborate so well with others. This is not something where you're wanting to put yourself in the spotlight.

Liz Vice (15:20):

I mean, and honestly it's even interviews like this or I would have pastors like one pastor in particular kind of like pulled me to the side and was just curious as to why all these doors were opening up for me with music if I was so hesitant about it and asked if I fear that my hesitation would come off as false humility. And so that was just another added insecurity that I could never be honest about my stage fright and my doubts as being an artist. And my doubts is doing anything that I felt called to and the life of an artist is not a secure life. It's a very risky life. Yeah. I mean, you do see all these talent shows. I know so many musicians where they love being on stage. They feel like they were made to be on stage and I've never had that confidence.

Liz Vice (16:18):

Oh yeah, that's me. That's how I feel. And so I can be pretty quiet about my music career. There are some people who have no idea what I do until someone else mentions that I'm a musician because I just don't really talk about it because I still struggle with this, this, this thing that is natural that I keep getting invited into multiple spaces. Not an, and that's the other thing is like not only am I singing you songs in church, but I'm singing these songs in spaces where people would never enter into the church. I once had a guy interview me and say, your music feels very familiar and nostalgic. Like, I know it, but I don't like that it mentions Jesus. Or I've had an article from Portland, Oregon, which is a very quote unquote non church city and particular very liberal newspaper said that if, if you can make it singing about Jesus in Portland, Oregon, you can make it anywhere.

Liz Vice (17:27):

And so I'm like getting invited into these spaces that have a strip club upstairs, but I'm singing about Jesus or getting invited to these festivals or getting invited to sing with these bands that are not associated with any faith practice. And I just say yes and I like, I am meeting people that Jesus loves too, regardless of what the conventional church would teach from the pulpit. I do believe that I get to experience Jesus in so many different kinds of people. And I pray that my idea of salvation is way smaller in comparison to Jesus's plan of love and redemption. And that's why I say yes to collaborating with a lot of people's because I feel like I need other voices to create a whole picture. Otherwise it's just one sided and I only have one piece of the puzzle and someone else has another piece. And then we work together and it makes something beautiful that I don't think I could have done on my own. And if I did try to do it on my own, I would drive myself insane and it would take years, years to accomplish anything.

Rodney Olsen (18:49):

And initially a lot of the music you were playing wasn't your own music, so to speak. It wasn't music that you were writing and yet you very much made them your own

Liz Vice (18:59):

Yeah. There's one song that I saying, yeah, Enfold Me. I mean, that's like the catalyst song to where I am today. I honestly don't even remember what it sounds like from the original artists because I've just sang it my way for so long and, and even moving into my second record Save Me, those songs arose from being on tour and self doubt and talking about health issues and, and rising up from dark nights of my soul and meeting other people and, and standing up for people that may not even believe the same things that I believe, but I believe that they are created beings and they have just as right to be loved as I do by Jesus. And so it's, yeah, believe me, I'm just as surprised by my career as most people. And when I say it, it just comes off as maybe false humility, but that's why I don't say it very often. I'm still in the process of this unfolding story and just to character,

Rodney Olsen (20:19):

How does it feel for you knowing that your music is heard right across the world? You've had tracks that have been streamed at over a million times. That must seem quite surreal for you.

Liz Vice (20:31):

Oh, it's so surreal. But if my music has a reflection of who I am, then the fact that it's reaching all over the world is exactly what I want to do as a human being. I love traveling. I love stepping into other cultures to learn new ways of seeing people, food. Storytelling, music. I love it. I love traveling so much and yeah, it's an honour that my music has travelled this much and I don't, not that I don't work hard for it, but I don't try to force something if it doesn't naturally on fold or if it's not naturally accepted. Like I'm not gonna I can't make anyone love my music. And so it surprises me every day when I get a message from someone saying that they just discovered a song that came out eight years ago or just discovered a new single, I don't know how it happens. I literally released the music and then I have to continue to live my life. So it's really cool that my song is all the way in Australia, blows me away. It's really cool. I hope to make it there in the flesh one day.

Rodney Olsen (21:50):

That would be wonderful. You're saying that your music seems to be accessible by people who would not normally walk into a church and there's a combination in your music that I find quite rare. So for instance, even going back to that first album, a song like Empty Me Out where I've played that to so many people and immediately they're drawn in by the music even right from the intro. Then they hear your vocal, they're swept away with that. But there's a deepness to those lyrics that we don't even hear in church these days.

Liz Vice (22:23):

Yeah. Well believe me, I have my opinions about that.

Liz Vice (22:29):

I'm like, y'all, we cannot be cowards. I feel like a lot of like the church body plays it safe in a lot of ways and I don't really think that we're meant to play it safe. Although I physically would like to live a life of stability and safety, there is something that's deeply ingrained in also my loyalty to a promise that I made when I was 15 that if the Spirit leads me somewhere, I say yes, even if I'm kicking and screaming. And I think that this music transcends because it connects to humans. Everyone has a story. Everyone has struggled and had to overcome something. Everyone has doubts, everyone has joys and I, and I hope that my music continues to connect with all people in that way. But the root of it is my relationship with Jesus. Even in my own doubts, in my own wrestling and my own frustrations, that mustard seed of faith is mighty strong inside of me.

Liz Vice (23:43):

And I mean, even with the pandemic I, I was, I have been so burnt out from doing music. I was literally going to go to Switzerland to go to on a spiritual retreat to be in the mountains and also tick off a country on my bucket list that I wrote when I was on dialysis and then walk away from music because I was tired, burnt out, brain fried. The politics of music is exhausting and ready to be done. I made my two records, pat on my back. Let's move on to something else. And even with a pause, I've been doing music nonstop, but it's different. There's no pressure to sell tickets. There's no pressure to convince people to listen to my music or to like me. And yeah, I'm just in awe. You would think that I would see this as an obvious, duh, this is what you're supposed to do. But it is a wrestling inside of me that I don't know if I'll ever overcome, but I will always choose to go where I know I'm supposed to go and I might be on stage and that might be in a nice chair and an office. I have no idea.

Rodney Olsen (25:03):

Your music, as you say, touches on things that we sometimes don't hear about in church. And that brings me to a great song that you released about Christmas and a very different take on, on a refugee king. Tell us about that song.

Liz Vice (25:19):

Oh man. So like I said, sometimes I get invited into these spaces with songwriters and I'm sitting there feeling like a chump. Like what do they not know that I don't know what I'm doing? Yeah. And we were challenged to rewrite Christmas songs that were more culturally accurate because the birth of Jesus is pretty tragic. A lot of children were killed due to this prophecy that Herod was told that there was going to be a new King in town. And so just to tell the story of Jesus literally with no agenda, it's just like cultural context. His parents had to leave their country to keep this baby safe. The strange thing about this story is that they left their home country to go into a place that their ancestors were once enslaved and this was a place of danger and torment and oppression. And that was where they found safety.

Liz Vice (26:29):

Right? And so you think about people coming to America to find safety and refuge and fulfill this so-called American dream that they've heard through the grapevine and their land. And they come here knowing that they will receive oppression because it's just a given. Your skin colour is your portion in America. And it, it might, it's going to be your curse here. That's just the foundation of America. But I didn't want to release that song with an agenda of, see this is just like immigration. No, it is just the story of Jesus. No place for his parents, no country or tribe. And they ran and they ran and they ran. And I wanted people to interpret the song for themselves. And I definitely have my interpretation of the song, but just laying out the facts as is, people will assume whatever they want about the story and some people will choose to be blind because Jesus in a lot of places is this blonde haired, blue eyed sheep totin' all American hero who's gonna redeem and oppress the bad guys and lift up the good guys. But you have to follow these rules where Jesus really is this country boy, this Jewish country boy from the sticks who had been called a bastard child because they knew Joseph wasn't his real dad. I wonder if he didn't look like a Joseph. He looked more like Mary and they were poor, but he was smart as hell. And they're like, how does this 12 year old know the scripture so well? But no one wants to worship that Jesus. I don't even want to worship that Jesus, but that's the Jesus that I deeply, deeply connect to. Growing up low income, single parent home, one of five kids with the mom that worked multiple jobs. And as a child I made a promise to myself that I would surpass the stereotypes. I am not. And I, I never wanted to be a statistic. And I think because Jesus didn't play by the rule book, that's why he was killed by the very people who should have been respecting and honouring him. So yeah, Merry Christmas.

Rodney Olsen (29:12):

And it's interesting the narrative you're talking about there of this, this, this white blue eyed Jesus who is coming to, to overthrow and take political power is exactly what was expected back in the day. And yet we haven't learned that lesson.

Liz Vice (29:28):

No. Oh my goodness. That is like a whole other podcast that I honestly don't even feel like I'm smart enough to engage in other than speak from my own experience like I, why didn't Jesus overthrow the political powers that be? Why did he allow them to kill him and allow his people to be oppressed? What was it about Jesus where these men were willing to be tortured to death because they loved him? I think about the moment Jesus died on the cross. I would have been heartbroken and absolutely just what was all of this for, to see my very hope dead on the cross, and honestly as I, I've gotten older, I'm like, you know what? I don't blame Thomas. I want to see these scars too because I watched my hope die on a cross and I need to touch these scars because there's, I've never heard of resurrection.

Liz Vice (30:28):

I don't know what redemption of a body means or looks like, even though they saw people come back to life and people healed. So I don't know. And I've seen beautiful things too. I have definitely been blessed in my life. I know I'm in a pandemic, but I have enough savings to survive for as long as I need to, and yet I'm still like, eh. You know what? It really would be nice to just like see some kind of glimmer of hope that Jesus is here involved in this political nightmare and involved in the injustices of my black brothers and sisters involved in people oppressing me when they see me in a grocery store and following me to make sure I don't steal anything. Like what is my role as one who says she follows the Lord but also constantly reminded that I am other and there will never be justice for people that look like me or Brown people in general.

Liz Vice (31:27):

And yeah, it is. It is definitely a, I'm in that place right now wondering like the great prayer of Psalm 13. Oh, how long Lord will you hide your face? Yeah, it is interesting. A cross to bear and, but it's so deep in me like I'm not ready to throw in the towel on Jesus just because I've also seen too much doing music and just in life. Hell, I'm a miracle right now that I'm alive. And I had a pastor remind me that if we were to truly live like Jesus, in essence we would be crucified. So I don't think it's a lot to ask for justice and love, but it is. It is. Not only am I a black person, I'm also a woman. So it's like, Whoa, double portion, Lord, double portion.

Rodney Olsen (32:30):

So even though you, you've almost come to music kicking and screaming and you've done it against this sort of background of this cry of the heart for in mass through you in some way to know that your music is actually bringing people closer to Jesus and not the cardboard cut out Jesus that we see presented so often, but the, the real Jesus who he really is.

Liz Vice (32:53):

Yes, it's easy for other people to see that. But I promise you, I've been so burnt out from this quote unquote call to sing these songs that create a space for all people to come together. Like I remember the first show I ever played, a woman came up to me and said, you almost made me believe in Jesus. Or I've seen grown men cry at a bar saying, I haven't been to church in so long. Or I've had people ask me if my politics and my religious beliefs clash against one another because they didn't understand how I could be so kind to them. And I'm just like, Lord, what have we done? And I don't have any answers other than my own experience. And I don't always feel like I'm actually playing a role in advancing the kingdom. So it's people like you and people who send me messages every single day on social media that kind of give me an idea that maybe I'm a part of something that exemplifies Jesus, but I don't always feel it. Especially now being isolated in an apartment. It's like, what is my role now? Like how do I, is music enough? Are the songs enough, me reposting things about injustices? Is that enough? Is my story enough? I don't know.

Rodney Olsen (34:43):

Liz, it's, it's absolutely a delight to, to chat to you. Thank you so much for, for taking so much time to sharing your heart and that's really what you've done. Thank you so much for the music that you have produced so far and we look forward to, to hearing a whole lot more from you. I know it's a struggle, but I'm hoping that you continue with that struggle because it does a lot of good for people who are yearning to hear the realness of Jesus. So thank you for your time today.

Liz Vice (35:13):

Yeah, thanks Rodney. Thanks for your desire to hear what I have to say. Yeah, I think that's the only way that I'll keep moving forward is people being willing to hear.

Emily Olsen

Thank you for listening to bleeding daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net

How does a young boy with a promising future become a thief and a junkie and how does he turn his life around? That's today's episode of Bleeding Daylight.

Jacob Hill was a straight A student with a dream of winning Olympic gold, but his life took a number of unexpected turns, including crime, drug addiction and coming very close to death. Some would say it's a miracle that Jacob is alive today. How did such a talented young man fall so far and how did he turn his life turn around? Today he's a husband, father, author and pastor. Jacob is my guest for this episode of Bleeding Daylight. 

Jacobs's Book - Kids at War: The Battle of Addiction

Jacob's Website - http://JacobHill.org 

Jacob on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/jacobhillofficialpage

TRANSCRIPT

Emily Olsen

Wherever there shadows there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is bleeding daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.

Rodney Olsen  0:19 

How does a young boy with a promising future become a thief and a junkie and how does he turn his life around? That's today's episode of Bleeding Daylight.

Jacob Hill was a straight A student with a dream of winning Olympic gold, but his life took a number of unexpected turns, including crime, drug addiction and coming very close to death. Some would say it's a miracle that Jacob is alive today. How did such a talented young man fall so far and how did he turn his life turn around? Today he's a husband, father, author and pastor. Jacob is my guest for this episode of Bleeding Daylight.  Welcome.

Jacob Hill  1:07 

Thanks so much for having me, Rodney.

Rodney Olsen  1:08 

I want to get to know the eager young boy who had such an amazing life stretched out ahead of him. Tell me about those early years.

Jacob Hill  1:16 

 Oh gosh. Probably my biggest memory of the sort of the overarching sort of feeling like I carry from my childhood is like you said eager. Like I was just I loved life and life was was good. My parents were amazing and I was taught that I could do anything and the results I was producing was showing it and I just had such a confidence that whatever I put my hand to was gonna succeed at, and so yeah, I just had this is so excited for life and so excited for the future.

Rodney Olsen  1:52 

So you studies were going well, and you're also excelling at sport.

Jacob Hill  1:56 

So it didn't start out good in school like I look back, it's probably like ADD or dyslexia or something. I remember like every single recess I'd be kept into the finish work off and homework was nightmare but then at some point it sort of clicked and I ended up finishing primary school with straight As pretty much and then High School on a sports scholarship. I was like champion of athletics right through school, I was captain and more school hockey team and the factions and all of that, and the icing on the cake was we went away to high school and hockey scholarship, and we're training at the Commonwealth hockey stadium the big stadium here in Perth four times a week, twice with school, twice with my club playing there on the weekends and sometimes during the week, we'd actually have the Australian hockey team on the other end of the pitch and that was crazy. Like literally seeing my dream like my dream was to play hockey for Australia and literally get to shake hands with like my dream. it was in my mind, it was very, very done.

Rodney Olsen  2:53 

So when it came to hockey, what was your biggest dream?

Jacob Hill  2:56 

A gold medal. That was that was it. The Australia Kookaburras at that point had won a silver medal. One of the guys played for my club and putting his silver medal on one time, wearing around my neck thinking, wow, this is so good, but I'm gonna go one better. That literally was everything.

Rodney Olsen  3:11 

And there was really no doubt in your mind at that stage that that was going to happen.

Jacob Hill  3:16 

Not not a fraction of doubt.

Rodney Olsen  3:17 

So how could all of that come crashing down? You're in high school, your grades are good, you're rising through the ranks at a rather elite level of playing hockey, how did all that begin to unwind?

Jacob Hill  3:30 

So all about the same time, my parents separated, and I developed a disease in my knees. So within a couple of months, the rug was pulled out from under me and I just did not know where I was, who I was, where I belonged. Everything I dreamed about was just gone, and I didn't have a backup plan. My identity was really busted up from my dad leaving because I just sort of thought if he really loved us, he wouldn't have left us and then I sort of you know, just a little kid, 13, really just got the message I wasn't worth loving and then all of the other stuff I'd gotten validation for from my whole life that was gone as well. Because I was never like a real social kid I was always I had plenty of friends and stuff but that was mostly I think because of sport because I was a little bit socially awkward and as much as I tried to put on a confident front I was pretty shy and I totally lost man like just totally lost.

Rodney Olsen  4:26 

So in the middle of this your family starting to fall apart and you've lost your dream of representing your country and winning Olympic gold. That also means that hockey team mates that had become your closest friends are all gone as well. Everything's falling away beneath you.

Jacob Hill  4:41 

My mates were all guys I trained with and played with. All of a sudden, I couldn't play and I could barely walk for a while, like I could like remember just the pain trying to get upstairs and stuff because I had this growing disease in my knees. Really I felt very, very alone and found myself trying to work out where did I fit in who you know. Like with my dad, sort of, I was always felt like someone's looking at for me, someone sort of keeping me in line a bit someone's believing in me and then with my mates always, you know, felt that camaraderie that real team spirit sort of thing. You get the validation that you get playing sport team sport. And I just like lost both sides of I guess the people that gave me a lot of my identity and and I just really started to look for that I was like. And I wouldn't have been able to tell you that as a 13 year old kid like, but looking back retrospectively that's what I can really see that's what I was doing. That's why I actually settled hanging out with people who were really living a risky lifestyle that I did not agree with. I just wanted to belong like my brother was hanging out with these guys that started smoking pot. They were doing graffiti and petty crime like break and enters and stuff like that. Man, I just wanted to belong I  think .Yeah and I was pretty prepared to do anything to fit in.

Rodney Olsen  6:03 

Tell us about your family. Did you know that things weren't great between your parents? Was there any inkling that the marriage was breaking down? And you've mentioned your older brother? Were they just the two siblings?

Jacob Hill  6:14 

No at that time, there was my parents, my older brother, who's just a year older than me, and a younger brother who's three years younger. So all around that time, I'm just starting school, high school, sorry. So I'm sort of the end of first year second year. And my brother's in the same school. He was in the same hokey program. My parents had been, I knew that they were separating. So all around that time, we were sort of we were blindsided one time with the conversation, but that was first before the knees. But before that, like my dad was amazing. He'd take us camping all the time, fishing every weekend, he was was at every single game of mine, take me to practice, you know, take us skateboarding and surfing and make sure we do our homework and it just, you know, it could could barely fault the guy on that side of things. And so and I really felt blocked, betrayed by him going, the only reason he could have possibly left, the only rationale I could dig up in my sort of 13 year old mind is that he really didn't care about us. It really rocked the foundation of what I believed about everything in life, who I was, who we were as a family, my Christian faith, because I was brought up in church. It really just scuttled me,

Rodney Olsen  7:32 

You mentioned that your older brother had already started mixing with the wrong crowd, and it was around that time that you started dabbling in drugs yourself. Your brother's only a year older than you so you're still both very young. How did the connections into that kind of world begin?

Jacob Hill  7:48 

So I atually don't really know how he started to get involved. Whether that was around the time my parents separated, looking back, actually, I'd say that's what's happened. And so he started hanging out with these guys. So he would have been 13, 14 at that point, and then I've sort of joined in with them when I was 13. So he would have been 14 by then. Put a lot of it down to definitely down to the people were hanging out with their peer group but also, had a lot to do with the music we were listening to. We listened to a lot of hip hop. Drugs were glorified. So much of it was talking about how drugs are cool, how they're a way of making money, a way of basically dominating your circumstances. And it also spoke a lot about violence and how violence is you know, the way you get respect and the way you hold respect. You know, we just really identified with that music and with that subculture, trying to emulate these guys. I'd never bothered that I wasn't smoking weed like I never wanted to do it. I didn't have any attract there's just nothing there for me. But I was listening to a song that the there's a line in the song said when you smoke, talking about marijuana, when you smoke like I smoke then you're high like every day and I remember just listening to that song one time, and then just like the penny dropped and I was just like, I'm not one of the guys. Like I'm not like these people and I felt like a real try hard. I just thought you know what today, I'm going to try marijuana because at the bus stop every afternoon the boys would sit in a circle and pass the bong around and I thought today when it gets passed to me, I'm not just going to pass it by I'm actually going to try it. And that afternoon I did that I tried it an interesting side note to is the guy whose pot it was that day, he was a guy I grew up with, and his family is actually the family that got us into playing hockey. He was a really good friend and a really like a huge influence on me growing up, and he actually died of a heroin overdose at the age of 20. So so this is the guy who's you know, it's his pot. I've tried it for the very first time, and this is something where I think young people need to be told about drugs. People don't just go and throw their life away like for no reason. Typically, these drugs have a really solid, immediate payoff, like in the terms of actually getting high like you feel really good. And that first time I got stoned man, it was like all my problems were gone. The pain of my dad leaving just gone. The disappointment of losing my Olympic dream was just gone. I really felt like I fitted in with the guys. And I actually had the thought that very first time I remember like so clearly it was looking back it's almost like it was a thought placed into my head from the outside but it was so clear in my mind, it was like, if I can just keep feeling like this. Everything will be okay. And I was literally addicted to marijuana the very first time I tried it, which some people say that marijuana is not addictive. I tell you I've no idea what they're talking about. But then I had another thought at that same sort of that same day was if this is how good pot is, I wonder how good all the other drugs are. And basically, I went on a quest to, you know, try all these other drugs.

Rodney Olsen  11:07 

How do 13, 14, 15 year old boys get their hands on the the sort of money that it takes to buy these drugs?

Jacob Hill  11:15 

When I was 13, I started selling for the boys that were older than me to the kids in my year, and I'd sell a certain amount of pot and I'd get a certain amount for free. And when that wasn't working for different reasons, like supply issues, you'd go and do break and enters and, you know, steal from different things and different people and shops and all of that.

Rodney Olsen  11:36 

It was really the start of a, I guess, a life of crime at that point.

Jacob Hill  11:40 

Yeah, it was it was totally and, you know, when you look at prisons, they're full of the're full, a majority of the people that are in there because of drugs. You wouldn't say it's easy money, but you don't have to be disciplined to make enough money to get by. So whereas if you've got a job, you've got to wake up at a certain time do what the boss says that you know in all of this, when you just do it that life you wake up when you want to go out and do it. For someone who's already emotionally crippled to the point where they're, you know, self medicating which and that's all that drug addiction is is you've got people that are in such bad shape they're self medicating to escape from this situation emotionally.

Rodney Olsen  12:20 

You've mentioned that you were on a quest to try a variety of drugs. The Verve had a song some years ago titled The Drugs Don't Work. Did that ever become your experience?

Jacob Hill  12:31 

Yeah, they stopped soon enough. You get a tolerance built up. The problem with it is is that well, there's a lot multiple problems but the first sort of problem is is when the drug stopped working and and by that I mean they they effectively they stop covering the pain is really I think, the simplest way of putting it. That is you can imagine you're in even medicine will tell you this, you you're taking painkillers for pain and you take them a long  time enough and your tolerance keeps building up, you need to take more and more of them to deal with that pain. If you keep doing it long enough that will stop dealing with the pain and that's what happened to me like the marijuana stopped making me feel good and the alcohol stopped making me feel good and the pills I was popping and acid and everything was it wasn't making me feel good anymore. But at the same time, I couldn't not use them because not using them made me feel even worse. So it was almost like now you've got no payoff for using drugs, except that you don't get the really horrible withdrawals or the really horrible problem of being straight. And basically what happened from there was, I think I was 16 and I made a decision. I was like, I felt so stuck. I was like, I need to get high. All of these drugs aren't doing it. I'm going to try heroin. And I knew what that meant. I knew that heroin was super addictive, I knew that it's super expensive, super dangerous. 'Cause I was a smart enough little kid as well, like, actually weighed it up and thought, you know, the pros and the cons. And I knew that there was no upside to this. But I still did not feel like I had another choice because I didn't realize that I could stop using drugs. That That wasn't in my in the equation. So it was just like, well, the only solution I could say was to go harder, even though I knew it was going to cost me everything. So I did it. I started using heroin. The very first time I shot heroin, I was 16 and I had that same feeling not the same high, but that same sort of thought that if I could just keep feeling like this, everything will be okay. It made me feel great for a little while, but you know, sure enough that that stopped working as well. You know, after a period of after a period of time,

Rodney Olsen  14:54 

I believe that during these times you even tried taking your own life a couple of times.

Jacob Hill  14:59 

Oh it cooks your head. Like, I mean you're dealing with people like in my situation you're dealing with a young guy who already was massively insecure. Any drive I had was gone. I saw no hope for the future. I'd ruined so many opportunities. I dropped out of school. You just look at some of the logical stuff. You've got someone who's going to be pretty low emotionally, then you chuck in all of those psychedelic chemicals and in such strong you know, drugs you're putting into a developing mind. I mean, being a kid's hard enough. You know, you know, being 16, 17 is hard enough when you're doing everything right. But yeah, you mix those those chemicals in with some real lifestyle challenges, on top of the you know, the the insecurities and on top of all the I was like flat out suicidal. First time I tried to end my life I was 17. I remember just sort of just not seeing a way out. My mates are starting to go to jail. They're starting to die of overdoses. People are starting to get hepatitis C. Getting kicked out of home. Like I literally could see no way out like way before when I could see no way out or there's like there was heroin, at least I could use heroin to make me feel okay. Now at this point where I was on heroin, and it wasn't doing it for me. I just, I could say nothing. Well, I might as well end my life. What's the point of sticking around here for to, you know, to live like this. And yeah, I made a genuine attempted suicide and praise God, it didn't work, but I was put in great lengths mental institution, I was there for a while. I came out of there, and just nothing like yours just went right back to it.

Rodney Olsen  16:45 

So even after having to spend time in a mental Institute, you didn't have reason to think well, this isn't working? I need to stop this kind of self destructive life? Were you still thinking there was no way out?

Jacob Hill  16:57 

Yeah, well, to be really honest and I have to be pretty honest with myself in saying this, as much as you want to get off because we you need to because you know, just just plain logic tells you that part of it was is actually didn't want to get out. Because partially because that's all I had known from quite a young age like from 13 my whole group of friends were in that lifestyle. I would I didn't know this at the time, but I've just, you know, from conversations I've had with guys trying to help them step off drugs, we actually get really scared of like, what will life be like without drugs? Can I handle this? Can I How can I function like in my own mind? And so you've got this medley of reasons, why quitting doesn't seem to be a viable choice. And yeah, and literally I've left there and nothing changed.

Rodney Olsen  17:52 

In your book, Kids at War, the Battle of Addiction, you describe an overdose that nearly took your life. I believe it was one person's actions that was the difference between life and death for you.

Jacob Hill  18:04 

Yeah, I overdosed after a party one night and I was y'know rushed to hospital. I was dead by the time the paramedics got to this guy's house. So what's happened is I was at this party. We've gone back to my mate's house. I was asleep on the couch, and someone's woken up my friend whose house it was and I said, can you come and wake up Jacob? He's snoring too loud. I can't sleep. I can't wake him up. Can you come and sort him out. So they're basically just wanted my friend to wake me up not out of concern for my health, but because that was keeping them awake. But he's come and he's heard this noise that they've complained about that was snoring. And he knows this sound, because the year before he was at a mate's house kicking it, watching a movie, doing some drugs. This guy falls asleep, and my my friend thinks nothing of it. And then this guy starts to what he thinks is snore, and he thinks nothing of it. But after a while he realizes something's seriously wrong and he tries to wake him up, he won't wake up. He rings the ambulance. By the time the ambulance gets there this blokes dead, 18 years of age. So when he's come out and he's heard the noise that they thought was snoring, and so he knows straightaway that this guy's not snoring, he's drowning. So what happens is you're unconscious you're laying on your back, you start to regurgitate, and then you breathe that in, you're literally drowning in your own vomit. And he knew straight away so he's jumped straight on the phone, rang the ambulance. By the time the ambulance has got to his place, I'm dead. They've had to revive me. I died a few more times. My mom is called. They said there's no chance I'm going to survive. Had I been dead for too long, basically, the oxygen I bought my body, my brain and my organs had been without oxygen. Mostly my brain had been without oxygen for too long. And there was just no way I was going to survive and they've put a piece of paper in front of her, which is they're asking her to sign a permission waiver from them to give away my organs. She didn't, which I'm pretty grateful for. But so I've pulled through about I was in a coma for a week but I've pulled through, and I've woken up. I had to learn how to walk again to learn how to breathe again. But the day I could walk, I walked straight out of the hospital and went right back to it. Yes, it was like not a lesson was learned. And even when I was in that hospital, I remember there was a lady come to me, counselor, and she's said, you need help, you know, and I said, what do I need help for? And she's like for your drug problem. And I said, lady, I don't have a drug problem. I like using drugs. Leave me alone.

Rodney Olsen  20:38 

So you've been committed to a mental institution and gone straight back to using drugs. You've overdosed, been in a coma for a week connected to machines and gone straight back to using drugs, Seen others that you know, lose their lives by doing the same sorts of things that you're doing, yet you're still taking drugs. Nothing so far has shaken you hard enough to change. What would finally shake you to the point of saying, enough's enough, something needs to be done.

Jacob Hill  21:06 

This is actually my mom. I needed some money one time and I'd ask her went and asked her for it, which I hadn't asked her for money since I was a kid since I was living at home in school, but now I was 21. I've been out of home since I was 17. And for some reason, I've gone and asked her for the money. She's told me that she doesn't want to talk to me again until I'm in rehab. And I thought, well, rehab doesn't work. Once a junkie, always a junkie, but for her, I'll give it a go. And to be really fair, I wasn't actually giving it a go to try to get off them. I was actually giving it a go, so it was way would have proved to me my theory that I was I was a lost cause basically. And I was really just thinking, this is just going to validate everything. I've thought. I'm going to do this thing go there for a few weeks. It's not going to work, and I'm just gonna come out and I'm gonna go as hard as I can till I'm dead basically. That was my my plan. Sure for you all go, but don't expect it to work.

Rodney Olsen  22:05 

Your book talks about the moment that you were given a decision about which rehab to go to and the strange decision that you made at the time.

Jacob Hill  22:12 

Yeah, the whole rehabs, like structure and system was pretty crazy in my mind, who knows? I was probably the crazy one but I was struggling to work all this thing. My normal counselor lady was she saying I couldn't get into rehab because I was using too much drugs. Like you need to go to a detox clinic, but I was using too much drugs to get into the detox clinic. So I need to use less drugs. So I could get into the detox clinic so they could detox me to get me into a rehab. And I'm thinking if I could use less drugs, or wouldn't he people. One of the weeks I go to the clinic was a different lady there. And she I'm sort of thinking, ah, if I lie to this lady, about how much drugs I'm using, she might put me straight into the detox centre or straight into the rehab or something. So when she's asked me how much I'm doing and everything I'm telling her just what I think she wants to hear. But then she says, I think Teen Challenge would be good for you. Now I'd heard about Teen Challenge a few years earlier, where I heard someone saying that they had gotten off heroin at Teen Challenge. And I remember at the time, just thinking what a pile of rubbish, but I do remember them saying that they met God at Teen Challenge, and God helped them get off heroin. And I remember just bad mouthing them in public. You know what, while they were saying it, but this lady said Teen Challenge, and I instantly remembered this. And then I'm like, are you a Christian? Are you trying to push God on me? She's like, No, no, no, we'll find you somewhere else. But it was like that little split microsecond between are you trying to push God on me and her saying, No, no, it was in that little, that little moment. I remember so clearly, just like everything slowed down and got quiet for a minute. I had a little conversation inside my head with God and it was just like, Man, this chick had talked about a miracle, like about God helping her get off heroin. And if that happened, that was a miracle. And I was thinking, the only way this is gonna happen is a miracle because I didn't even want to stop using. As much as I hated the life that I was. It was just, it was all I knew. And I remember that little split second to saying to God as a God, if you're real, you can make me stop wanting to use drugs. And I said, if you do that I'll serve you for the rest of my life. She's like, no, no we'll find you somewhere else. I'm like, No, no, give me give me the God place and she's like, no, no, no, we'll find it somewhere else and lady, give me the God place. And I don't remember much from there to, but it was a couple of months later ended up down at Teen Challenge and then the fun really started.

Rodney Olsen  24:43 

I understand you were picked up by a young guy who you thought fitted all the Christian stereotypes.

Jacob Hill  24:48 

Good Christian boy. Yeah. So like, I know this is a Christian place. I'm like, prepared for a bit of God stuff. And this little Vietnamese guy. He's the one that collects me from, it's a 10 hour bus ride, Rodney. So he comes he collects me from from the bus. He was so clean cut. Look, he just was like a church boy looking kid and I'm just like, oh my goodness, I remember just feeling so hopeless at that point. I was like, this guy looks like he's never even had panadol and just thinking, how can he help me? But then I got talking with him and he'd had the same, he was into the same stuff I'd been into. He'd been through the gangs and dealing heroin and you know, all sorts of nasty business. It's like to talk to him, you would never in a million years think he had a habit. Like he was just like, whoa, this guy's the real deal. And I remember it was this on the literally on the drive out there where I made we're actually had the thoughts like, wow, this is possible. I can do this. Like if it happened for him, it can happen for me.

Rodney Olsen  25:47 

All this time you've thought that there is no hope for people like you who are addicted to a life of drugs yet he's living proof of that change being possible.

Jacob Hill  25:56 

Yeah, right in front of me and saying he'll walk alongside me through it too.

Rodney Olsen  26:00 

So you're talking about having to detox from everything you'd been pumping into your body and you'd lied to get there because you understated what drugs you are taking. So they don't even know what they're dealing with when you walk through the front door.

Jacob Hill  26:13 

Oh man I was sick. So I taken a bunch of drugs that day. I've slept fine that night. But man after that, I did not sleep well. So the first morning was probably the start of the wake up call. So someone's knocked on my door at seven o'clock in the morning. And I'd be like, the only time I'd ever be up at seven o'clock because if I hadn't made a bed yet. So I'm like, this guy's knocked my door seven o'clock saying it's time to wake up and I just sort of went off my brain at him. I just like get out of, this is like one of the staff members, like get out of my bleeping room or I'll cut your bleeping throat. Anyway, he left, I didn't see him again for the day, but for that morning, and they let me sleep it off. And I mean, that was the last time I slept for so long. And I remember for that first couple of weeks just so so sick Rodney like, man, like there'll be times where I literally fall to the ground, my muscles or my body and my body just totally seizes up cramping to the point where I'm actually curled into a little ball. Like not my choice and shaking and feeling like I was being electrocuted and stuff. And like I just be every chance I got I'll just find a piece of sun to go and lay in just because like I was sick man about I wasn't sleeping either. I remember like every night used to be like looking forward to going to bed because I was so tired. But then not sleeping. Like the amount of times I watched the sun come up. It was months before I could sleep again. It was horrific.

Rodney Olsen  27:45 

You said that you believed only a miracle could turn your life around. This supposed cure is sounding pretty horrific. So when did the miracle come?

Jacob Hill  27:54 

I reckon it came when I met that guy at the bus stop because the night before I left, I'd popped my shoulder out in a fight so I dislocated my shoulder and I've gone to the, you know, which didn't help the sleeping situation, and so they've taken me to the doctors and I have the you know the option for some something to help with the pain and sleeping. I'm like now I don't want any of that stuff but I don't want anything to help me sleep. I don't want anything to help with the pain. I just want to be have nothing to do with with drugs even the prescribed stuff that they get I don't want anything and so it was like literally that straightaway I just said look no taste for it at all. Even though I had to go through the detox the physical side of it. Emotionally I was done with it like I was I was through it. Yeah, I mean, like not learning how to live like a healthy life or anything but the as far as wanting drugs, I was done like day one.

Rodney Olsen  28:51 

So after the the horror of the detox, it was then a matter of learning how to live a healthy life. What did that mean for you?

Jacob Hill  28:59 

Well, I talked about That detox and it's like it sounds pretty bad and go I'm looking back it was terrible. But that was the easy bit. But you can make your body do stuff you know you just got to watch a marathon and you see some people doing some pretty incredible things and but the the real hard thing for me was the emotional stuff because you got to remember that it was the emotional stuff is why I got onto drugs in the first place. And it was the emotional stuff is why I kept going harder and kept using more and more. I'll tell you the biggest the biggest key to the whole thing was learning that I was made on purpose by a God who loved me and had a plan for my life. That was the the biggest key and I really struggled to believe it though that are you know, on heaps of levels. But having that nugget is what got me through like that is still today is was what gets me through.

Rodney Olsen  29:58 

What age are you at this point?

Jacob Hill  30:00 

I went in there at 21. And it took me 14 months to finish the program. So I finished it and I just turned 23

Rodney Olsen  30:10 

Here you are at that point of learning the basics of how to live a normal, healthy life. You're a 21 year old man having to deal with the emotional baggage of a 12 or 13 year old that had never been dealt with.

Jacob Hill  30:23 

Yeah, flat out like, basically once you start checking out with drugs, you don't mature past that point to a degree because that's how we learn. Like we have a problem. We work our way through it, and we've grown it's called maturing and yeah, and I just did not do that process. So it's one of the things you see about Teen Challenge is it doesn't matter what age the bloke gets down there, they've actually just changed the name of it to Adult and Teen Challenge because they're just finding more and more grown men going in there. To a large extent they've all got the psychology of a you know of someone in their mid teens because of exactly what you said like that not growing past emotionally,

Rodney Olsen  31:03 

It's an interesting journey that you've been on and as I said, you thought only a miracle could make you change. You've mentioned that you had to come to an understanding that you were created on purpose and that there was a God that loved you. So, how did that finally settle for you? When did all of that begin to make some kind of sense?

Jacob Hill  31:22 

Gosh, good question. So take it back before I went to Teen Challenge, and you're talking about, you know, all these crazy things that happened and you know, like the hospitals the mental institutions and the overdoses and all of that stuff and people look like a you know, say well you know, these surely that was your rock bottom moment. Now, surely that was a rock bottom moment, like my lowest point in life, was driving down the along the freeway with one of my mates and the song came on the radio, Grinspoon, and the lyric went something like this. It's like were you born to be a star? Were you born to be more than you are? And I remember listening to that song and knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that i and this is someone who flat out drug addict on our way to score, some heroin, breaking every speed, like every law on the road to get to this place quicker and at that point, I remember like just knowing that I was meant I was made for something special. I was made for something more. I was made to do something important. And I could see no way of getting there. I had this drug problem, I had no education. I had no drive. It was just like, that was my lowest point, realizing I was meant for something and not having any awareness of how I could get there.

Rodney Olsen  32:43 

I know that you had a little bit of a picture of what you were meant for. Tell us about that picture that you carried with you in your mind.

Jacob Hill  32:50 

I had this picture of like, what I would actually like for a life. I saw a girl who would love me for me. That was just that was like that desire in my heart. I wanted a family. Wanted my own kids like two boys was actually what I just this image I saw. My own house where I couldn't get kicked out of anymore. A job that I didn't hate, not even one that I liked. That wasn't that wasn't even the dream. It was just a job I didn't hate. And I remember that, seeing that picture. And that was so far from possible in my mind that I attempted suicide. But as I've started to get my life back on track at Teen Challenge like that, there was a sniff of it, you know, like it was like, well, God's got a good plan for my life and he can get me there as well as starting to wake up that those feelings like now I can be doing I can do something significant with my life. My life can make it like be called to make a difference in the lives of a lot of people.

Rodney Olsen  33:44 

So you've had this picture of a wife or a couple of sons a job that you don't hate. You've now been through all the detox, you've been through the rehab. we fast forward quite a number of years to the current day. What does life look like for you now?

Jacob Hill  33:59 

It looks remarkably similar to that picture. But it was about five or six years ago, I remember that picture came to mind and I was just like, Whoa, this is my life now. Happily married, built our own home, our two little boys and it was literally like that dream that was impossible was now not just, a potential, it was like I was living it. So and it was just like, far out. The Impossible is real. Like, I'm literally living this impossible dream and it's now tangible and I live in the house, and I tuck those boys into bed every night. And it was a dog in the picture as well. And I got a really cool dog. But that was just like, Whoa, I was just like, it's time to dream again. And I went back to the drawing board. It was just like, open up my heart as like, right. Like, I know that I wasn't just created to have my 2.4 kids and my own little piece of Australia. I was like, I am created to do amazing things. And I went back to the drawing board and at that time, I was pastoring a church, the church where I'm still pastoring now, but as a young guy that was literally my dream job. Forget about a job I didn't hate it was like my dream job. And I've, you know, just dreamt again and put some a few more things on paper and then God sort of added some surprises to it. We had a beautiful little girl. And now, I still pastor the church, but I'm off staff at the church, I'm not staff anymore. And I run my own company, Purpose and Destiny, which, you know, the goal of it is, is to help people discover their purpose in life and empower them to fulfill their destiny through some of the keys that I've learned, you know, bunch of facets, like through drug education in schools to sharing my story, as well as, you know, speaking at church and it but on top of that, doing this stuff that I was doing before that was great. It's not like got rid of stuff, doing new stuff. It's just like adding to my life.

Rodney Olsen  35:46 

Someone listening right now might think, well, that's great for you, but can it work for anyone else? I mean, let's admit it, you had seen maybe one or two people who had been able to kick heroin but you didn't really believe that that was possible, especially for you. So someone listening might be thinking, well for me that's just not possible. Someone else listening might be thinking there's someone that I love who's addicted. Is it possible for them really possible? What would you say?

Jacob Hill  36:12 

Well, I'd seen zero people that have gotten off. That one girl who I saw her but I didn't actually believe it for I know now and yes, it worked. So to really understand it, my both of my brothers went down the same road I went down and my my little brother he started using. The first time he was busted selling drugs, he was like nine or 10 years old. They both ended up heroin addicts as well. Today, my both of my brothers have been through Teen Challenge are off drugs. Got, you know, beautiful families, own their own homes, like just just doing well in life. My friend who rang the ambulance for me, he's off drugs. He actually goes to church with us. And a real kicker was I just realized the other day. That guy that I was driving in the car with when I say that song came on and you know where I had that where were you born to be a star that guy he's been through Teen Challenge as well. He's off heroin too now and he's married happily married and man, God is it if He's done it for one person, he'll do it for anybody. But to take it one step further my wife Melissa, her story basically reflects mine perfectly. Change a few names a few dates, a few details her life is is exactly the same as mine she, and then she's going through Teen Challenge, encountered God, kicked drugs and alcohol addiction and really had a radical transformation and now she you know, she's so she's another one. So there's definitely is good for me, but I'm not alone.

Rodney Olsen  37:46 

It's good to know that there is hope available for people who have thought that things are hopeless. If someone is wanting to perhaps get in touch with you and talk through some of the things that you've experienced that would help them on their way or even get a hold of your books? How would they do that?

Jacob Hill  38:03 

Probably the easiest way would be, maybe jump on my website, which is JacobHill.org and there's a connect page there. Or, you know, if they look me up on Facebook, and I'm pretty good at responding to the messages and stuff.

Rodney Olsen  38:17 

Jacob, your life has certainly had many ups and quite a few downs and I'm sure that it's still not a perfect life, but it's in a very different place to where it was. You say that really, it came down to a miracle and that miracle is still happening every day.

Jacob Hill  38:32 

Man, I get to see it every day. I've got friends that are still in the scene and I you know, I still pray for them and I still hope and believe that they'll come through it and I watch them over the years. I watch them just one at a time just coming through it.

Rodney Olsen  38:47 

Jacob, thank you so much for your time today. As I mentioned, you've written your story down into a book that people can grab hold of if they want to read through and get some of the stories in a bit more detail. It's called Kids at War, the Battle of Addiction and It's it's a great read. We look forward to seeing where this miracle will take you next. It's been an absolute delight to chat with you.

Jacob Hill  39:07 

Thanks heaps for having me, Rodney.

Emily Olsen  39:10 

Thank you for listening to bleeding daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Richmond Wandera is a remarkable man. His life was torn apart by violence and poverty. One act by a 15 year old girl began the healing that transformed his life and the lives of those around him. In this episode of Bleeding Daylight he tells his incredible story in his own words.

Richmond speaks honestly about the day he lost his father, his home and his childhood. He discusses the devastating effects of poverty and the part we can all play in seeing the end of extreme poverty.

Emily Olsen

Wherever there shadows there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is bleeding daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.

Rodney Olsen

Richmond Wandera has an incredible story to tell. He's the senior pastor of new life Baptist Church in Kampala, Uganda, and is the founder and director of Pastors Discipleship Network, a non-profit that serves, equips and trains thousands of pastors across East Africa.

He has a master's degree in spiritual formation from Moody Graduate and Theological Seminary in Chicago and holds a PhD in philosophy of leadership from Lancaster Bible College and Capital Seminary.

Now it might sound like Richmond has lead an extraordinary life and he has but perhaps not in the ways that you might think. His childhood was painful and challenging, marked by extreme poverty, illness, loss and hopelessness.

His family often went without food. He suffered from malaria almost a dozen times. Violence visited their home in a tragic way. And today, we get to spend a little bit of time unravelling some of that story. Richmond, thank you so much for your time.

Richmond Wandera

Thank you, Rodney. I'm happy to be here.

Rodney Olsen 

I want to talk about that moment, when as an 8 year old your life came crashing down, but before that, what are your memories as a young boy?

Richmond Wandera   

I was the third born of six children and I was born to a mother who was married off at a very, very young age at the age of 17. By the time she was 25, she had six children and I was a third born of that, as I already said. But my father, he was a lawyer, okay, and he was able to provide for our family.

So he wasn't the typical lawyer that you'd imagine with a suit and tie and you know, all of that, no, no. He was the kind of person who couldn't wait to take off the tie and who couldn't wait to take off the suit.

And I recall two specific instances with my dad. Us driving to watch his favourite team play and he's going clearly over the speed limit and we're at the back slamming the side of the car saying KCC, KCC because that was his favorite football team and it was all chaotic, but it was fun.

And I do remember that the time when he believed that he could lift all six of us and my mother our bed and he tried and we knew he hadn't succeeded but he believed he had. So I do remember very, very fond memories of my dad and my mom. And Rodney, we were really one united family heading towards a bright future until all that changed.

Rodney Olsen  

Tell me how that changed.

Richmond Wandera 

I was eight years old when I was rushed out of school, only to come home and find that my mother and father we're not around yet there were a lot of people gathered around the house and people were crying and wailing and they'd put three massive old pieces of wood in front of our house and lit them on fire.

In Uganda when you see that, you know that death has come to that home and I did not know who died. I did not know what happened and then it dawned on me when I saw the blood in front of our home that someone has been taken away from our home.

Oh Rodney, I learnt later that day that my father had been murdered in the presence of my mom, and my mom was in hospital for witnessing what my father had to experience.

Something happened to her body. She changed. On that day it seemed like I'd lost both my parents my father, physically he was killed and murdered. But my mom emotionally and psychologically she was not the same.

My mom was the kind of woman you called when you're having a bad day, she was sunshine, she could talk your ear off. She was very loud and happy but Rodney, the woman who returned home, my mother, she was different.

She was quiet. She was subdued. She was not laughing anymore and Rodney, that really affected us. Not just the loss of my dad, but the change of my mom and we began to experience some forms of injustice that are hard to describe.

I think the first one was when my mother tried to get the benefits from my father's work and she was told she had to pay money for those benefits to be processed out and she ended up not take getting a penny for my father's work.

The other thing that happened was my uncle who should have taken care of us was in financial problems about that time and he ended up taking what belonged to my father, my father suits my father's clothing, the furniture at home and basically sold all of that to take care of his own financial problems, leaving my mother and her six children in a more desperate place.

Rodney Olsen

There was six of you children, what was the age range?

Richmond Wandera

The oldest was 12 while the youngest was one.

Rodney Olsen

So you've got a 12 year old older sibling was that brother or sister?

Richmond Wandera

 Brother.

Rodney Olsen

You're eight, in the middle there and you have a one year old. So seeing this with your mother, you're not only having to process your own grief and as an eight year old, I guess that was a difficult thing enough, but trying to process what was happening with your mom,

Richmond Wandera

Again, we had seen women in the community be abused, and unfortunately, women have been looked at, categorized and sadly, completely abused in in our cultural space. Now that's changing, thank God,but, but by the time this was happening, women were not regarded as having equal rights as men.

It was hard to see my mother just in tears and she's just helplessly trapped. She couldn't talk to any of the elders or any of the community leaders or any of the people in the tribal group that were in a place of influence, because she was a woman, she basically did exactly as she was told and so it was hard to see that.

So she is already in a place of difficulty, having lost her husband, and now six children are hanging on to her for hope, as well as all this injustice that's coming to our home. We're in a government system that does not provide welfare to people in her state. And so she's actually in this place of total devastation. Her health is not good and so Rodney, it was in this time, that the worst came when we were asked to leave the home, because we only had that house that we're living in because of my father's work. And once he was out of the picture, we had to leave the house and that's how we ended up in Nagaru Slum.

Rodney Olsen 

I want to explore that slum and find out a bit about it. But, but first, maybe some background because this is all happening against a background of what's happening in Uganda at the time. Tell us, tell us about your country.

Richmond Wandera  

You're right, Rodney. This is happening against a very massively dark background. 1971 was the beginning of a reign of Idi Amin who was a brutal dictator and he ruled the country for nine long years.

Many people at the time thought it was the end of the world because of so much death and the reckless behaviour of the soldiers and the army and the killings that just were unending.

But 1979 when Idi Amin was overthrown, it plunged us into a new era of another form of darkness, which was again continued reckless death but it just really was a season where we had so many presidents each coming in as a rebel leader and no one coming in by the vote.

In between 1979 and 1986, we saw another very dark period. I think the height of the war in Uganda happened in 1986, which is popularly known as the Luwero Triangle War, where two rebel groups who are pressing against the government simultaneously. Again, this is a long period 1971 to now 1986 a whole period of just death in the country, and many people fearing for their future and so that has now caused Uganda to be the world's second leading country, with the youngest population right under Benin.

70% Rodney, listen, 70% of my nation's population is below the age of 30 years and 50% of the 70% is below the age of 15.

So we have a very young population, but this has come as a result of long standing civil war and in the midst of this background that our story is happening and so it's not just a crisis within our home, but it's a crisis of the nation.

Rodney Olsen

The nation's in crisis your family's in absolute crisis, and as you say, you end up in a slum paint us a picture of that slum.

Richmond Wandera

Nagaru Slum was regarded by many as the forgotten community. I mean, it's a valley of over 19,000 homes but each home, not having a space more than five by five meters.

No home was that size and moreover, it was small homes one after another, a whole line of homes probably sharing the same toilet, and no places for children to play. No hygiene, no hospitals. It was a place where most kids do not go to school and so everybody knew if it is crime or drugs or whatever you thought of this gang activity as more from Naguru.

The police and the government had in some way kind of given up on that community. So when my mother said to us, we found a space in Naguru where we will move to you can imagine the fear that ended our hearts as children. We're going to Naguru this place and indeed when we arrived, I remember walking into our house and looking around and all the eyes of the community just looking at us like, "who are these people coming in" and so we’re those coming in and I entered in saw this one roomed house, and I saw what seemed like sunrays pressing through the iron sheets, as like what happened when it rains.

Rodney, I was soon to find out because not all long after that our rainy season kicked in and I recall one night the rain being so strong, the wind being too too strong that our center iron sheet was not able to bear that wind and it was literally blown off the roof.

Rodney our home just became one giant bucket. I remember us picking up whatever we could and basically standing with those clothes and blankets and those items right close to our shoulders and our chest and standing on the side of the house as the rain came through.

We couldn't run out because it was dark and lightning and thunder and wind. We couldn't stay in and it was that night, Rodney, that I felt like I had lost myself.

When I reflect on what I was lost that night, I think I didn't just lose dignity but I lost identity. I lost who I was that kind of almost like life was just screaming angrily against against me as a child.

Two other things that I could say is my constant waking up in the morning and fearing because of the bumps of mosquito bites on my skin that I would get sick of malaria. I've seen so many kids died from malaria. And after my mom had said to us, there's no more money for food, I remember just going out and spending a lot of time on the street trying to survive and I wouldn't wish that on any child., No child, Rodney, should live through life like that. Not in a world that has the resources that we have.

Rodney Olsen

We often imagine poverty as, as a lack of resources as a lack of stuff so to speak, but you're talking about something that's much deeper than that.

Richmond Wandera   

Absolutely. Rodney, again, most people if you ask them define poverty or describe poverty, they'll use very physical descriptors for that. They say poverty is a lack of food, it's a lack of clothing. It's a lack of roof over your head, it's a lack of having that shelter and while that is true, that's only one side of poverty.

I think the real monster and the most devastating side of poverty is the invisible side. It's that voice. For me. It was like an ugly voice that constantly spoke to me I couldn't escape it, that I was nothing. I was unwanted. Nobody knew my name. Nobody wanted to know my name.

Every time I thought of something happy or what I want to be in the future, it's just you didn't even have food the previous night. You're not sure you're gonna have food tonight. What are you thinking about? Dreaming about a future and you? It just makes it feel like you're a joke like you completely, like you don't exist.

I remember Mother Teresa saying that, feeling forgotten, and feeling unwanted. is a much greater poverty than the lack of food. Rodney, I totally agree with Mother Teresa's words because I know what that felt like.

Rodney Olsen

How does that eight year old living in those sort of circumstances, having poverty speak to you daily about you not being worth anything, how does that boy become the man that sits before us today?

Richmond Wandera 

Well, it's just a beautiful thing, what happens when people choose to act. You know, I think everybody's looking at this and nobody's actually surprised that there is poverty in the world and that there are people who are suffering. But I think the story becomes beautiful when people act and not just empathize or have compassion.

So I was only about nine years old now and my mother hears that there is a church in the neighbourhood that supports children. Now remember, my mother is was a woman without faith, and my father didn't believe in God and we all were just in a space where we believed in our old African tradition and just looked at people at churches like go there, those are those people and we just just didn't connect with them at all.

And Rodney to describe the courage that my mother took it was, it's like me being a Christian today walking into like a Buddhist temple or something asking for help for my children. It's weird because it's like okay when I enter that, what will I find? Am I allowed to greet as a woman, am I allowed to, to greet the vicar, or the pastor, and what do I say? I mean, it's just very weird walking into a space, which practices a different spiritual expression from you. It's scary. But my mother because she was desperate, she walks into this space and says, "Look, I'm desperate. This is my story. If you guys can help, please do".

And Rodney, my mother was surprised she was surprised at how fast the Compassion workers at the local church came to our home and they came with cameras and with pictures, I mean with files and they took our birthday information and background of us as a family. And they took pictures of us Rodney. I remember standing in front of this camera and the flash went off and I felt like hope was coming felt like hope was coming and indeed three and a half months after that, we got the news we got the news that a, listen, and this this gets gives me chills just saying, that a 15 year old girl called Heather had decided to sponsor me.

Just thinking about that just grips me a fresh all the time that my life was rescued by one act of a 15 year old girl and when my mother was told she almost fell off the chair. She's like this could easily be my daughter. And Rodney, I can't get, I fail to get my mind around that. I mean, if you think about most 15 year olds and what they think about themselves, but also what other people think about 15 year olds, they don't give them a lot of credit.

They keep saying to them look when you're older when you're 24, 25 and you've got a job and you have some spare income, then you will make a difference, then you'll change the world, then you can be a part of this fight. But at the age of 15, Heather, she had the maturity to take a babysitting job. And out of that, was able to take care of me. For me, , that's wild. It's beyond my understanding, but it's shaped what I believe today about 15 year olds.

Rodney Olsen

Do you think sometimes we don't expect enough from our teenagers from our 15 year olds, 14 year olds, 18 year olds?

Richmond Wandera

Absolutely. Absolutely. Rodney, I believe just in that can be seen from how we treat them, and how we organize programs for them and what opportunities we provide for them to make a difference.

It's evident wherever you see or wherever you turn, that 15 year olds are treated as those who will make a difference later and not today, and we've got to change that. We've got to change that. We've got to call a 15 year old and say, "You have everything now to do whatever God has called you to do right now. Whatever your passion is, or whatever the impact that's lined up for you to do right now you can do it right now." And Rodney, I'll tell you one way I am doing that in my community. So young kids when they reach the age of 14, I begin to call them sir. And people wonder why are you calling this kid sir but I, the whole posture changes.

When I'm the Senior Pastor right now the church that rescued me as a kid, when I come up, I'm usually dressed up as expected in my community that I will be it no matter how hot it is, I'm dressed a certain way. But I look at this 14 year old I say good morning, sir and Rodney, there is a physical impact of that word. I mean, you just see them standing before you say ah, immediately almost speak responsibility to them. And Rodney this, what I'm finding that when you look at a 15 year old and say you have now all that you need to make a difference right now sir. Really? The world doesn't say that to me. The school doesn't say that to me. Clearly my peers don't say that to me. You saying that to me? What do you see that I don't see? And so teenagers can change the world. And one teenager changed my world.

Rodney Olsen

How did that change look for you? Once you found out Heather, a 15 year old girl who didn't have the capacity to sponsor you, but said, I'm going to and I'm going to take a babysitting job to do that. How did that start to change your world?

Richmond Wandera 

You know, when Heather took a babysitting job to sponsor me, she was able to provide Compassion International with $48 a month, and from that Compassion was able to send that money to the local church in my community and that local church was able to provide very specific needs that I had.

The first one was food. You know, food is so basic, and if you live in a country where food is available, easily accessible, this point is not as strong but it is an extremely strong point. If you live in a country where people have died from starvation, and so food was provided for me, health care was provided for me. I still remember my health care number UG 129/0064 I can never forget that because it was given to me and said Richmond anytime you fall sick, don't even run to church or run to the Compassion project run to any dispensary or hospital around you. They will they all have our list of sponsored kids and hey, they'll take care of you and don't worry about the bill. And Rodney that was, the second benefit.

So first was education was was food second was health. The third was education. Rodney, in our country, Uganda. If you don't have money to go to school, the doors are closed, and until someone with the ability to open those doors shows up, the doors remain closed.

For me, Heather, she was half the way around the world but because of her generous sacrifice, I was told Richmond, you can now go back to school. This is gonna be your scholastic materials, and I was given a school uniform and I still have a picture of myself running to school and it changed and unlocked my potential in massive ways. But then the other thing is I got a chance to be a child again.

My time on the street had ripped childhood off of me completely and there was no time to be a child because I had to provide for my sister and my brothers, I had to protect them. There's no time to be a child, but here I was now in a space where there are merry go rounds, the see saws and it's a church, it's a safe place, and there I was and I was also under the care of people who were not necessarily paid to take care of children, but they felt it was a calling from God to take care of children and so they would work extra hours without any additional pay. They do this work and take care. And Rodney, it was there that I met Pastor Peter.

Pastor Peter became the father that I did not have. He stood with me, he mentored me to this day, and he's worked closely with me. And all these doors were opening, because one 15 year old, had made a decision to live simply so that I could simply live. And I could not be more grateful. And so the way I live today is really to give back as much as I can and make a difference as a way of saying thank you.

Rodney Olsen

There were voices back for that eight year old that was saying, You're worthless. You're never going to be anything.

Richmond Wandera 

Yeah.

Rodney Olsen 

You're a joke. What were the the voices that came from Heather for you? What were the words that you experienced from Heather?

Richmond Wandera 

You know, it's such a serious problem of poverty, because poverty like a voice speaks to the child again, constantly, as I mentioned earlier. You're worthless. You are nothing. Nobody wants you, and so that level of poverty, that invisible poverty, there is no amount of money you can throw at it, to overcome it. There's no amount.

You could clothe me up well, but the voice remains. You could give me Vaseline for my face and lotion and the voice remains. There is nothing you can do using money to overcome that voice. The only thing that overcomes that voice is a counter voice. A counter message, and Heather's letters brought to me words like Richmond, I love you. Richmond, I'm praying for you.

She was part of a Presbyterian Church and so she could send me kids pictures of the kids of the Presbyterian Church. She wanted she sent me a picture of her pet dog and said, "Hey, do you love dogs?" She completely didn't understand that we have no pet culture back home, and so that was a really funny question that she asked. But she sent me stickers. She sent me cards that had music in them and Rodney these, these small and simple things, were able to awake the Richmond that was slowly dying.

And she said words over and over again words that I was not hearing in my community and I believe that there is there is something to be said about the community in which your child grows in. When a child grows up in Naguru, all they see is gangs and fighting and dirty water and death, and it shapes the child's person, not just the body but the child's person. And so when I got these counter messages from Heather, at first when she said I love you, I thought you don't even know me, how can you love me? But Rodney, Heather said that enough times that I believed her. And that's the work of God. It's a miracle. It's a miracle that a person who believes deeply darkness about themselves can actually change that belief system because of the words that are countering the message that they have always been hearing.

And I believe that it doesn't take that much to change the life of a child. It really doesn't take that much. But it takes that constant presence and that affirmation and that belief that, hey, I'm here with you. There's nothing you can ever do to for me to let you go. I'm here. And I think that children can tell and I was able to tell, and I believed Heather's words. And I think that's what brought the healing that I currently experience and now I'm very passionate about extending to other children.

Rodney Olsen

You mentioned Pastor Peter a little while ago, and I believe that there's a particular story that he shared with you that made a radical difference in your life.

Richmond Wandera 

So I joined the project at a very young age and but I like I said to you earlier Rodney, I didn't come from a family of faith. We didn't believe in God. We didn't believe in Christianity or anything like that but we just wanted help and we found help at the church.

And it was at that church that I met this man, Pastor Peter, who later on became the father that I did not have but again, on joining the project, we began to hear about the gospel, about the good news of Jesus Christ, I received my first Bible at the local project. I began to read this book, and then to interact with friends about it, and then to hear all these stories that were very, very exciting and engaging and I wish I had made the decision earlier but it waited until I was 14 years old, that I finally heard this story from Genesis 39 and 40, about this boy, Joseph and Pastor Peter spoke with passion and pleading with us about Christ and he said, that this boy, Joseph, he went through all these difficult things in his life, not of his own making.

He went through all these challenges, but there was a God who had a good plan for him. And Rodney, my heart was touched and I could feel deeply that I'm, I need this God in my life, I am a sinner, I need to repent and change and become anything that this God would want me to be.

Then Rodney, that is how I made my decision to follow God and I had no idea that it was going to completely change my future and change my family. Few Years later on, I was 19 years old, and Rodney, I had had the opportunity to see all five of my siblings make a decision to follow Christ, all of them led to Christ by Pastor Peter.

When I was 19, I had the absolute joy of seeing my mother invite herself to church and she sat at the back and Pastor Peter was going as he normally goes every Sunday, talking with just passion about God, and my mother, she walked forward, knelt down, accepted Christ in her heart and Rodney in that moment, I just knew that our family will not be the same again, and that was true.

Because all the injustices that had happened to my mother, the man who basically swindled all the money that she was entitled to, as a result of my father's work, and basically stole that money from her when she needed it the most. My mother was able to forgive him. My uncle who took from us at the point of desperation, my mother looked at him and forgave him.

My uncle ended up falling sick of cancer and when my mother invited us and said, "Look, let's go and take care of uncle in hospital", I knew that my mother had finally forgiven. That action was almost impossible for a person who treated you so badly at a time when you needed them the most.

Two days before my uncle passed, my mother led my uncle to the Lord. In the first days I remember just being there with tears in my eyes as my uncle when we first arrived at the hospital, he refused to look at us. He refused the forgiveness that we're offering saying, look, I deserve to go to hell I deserve. of course, my life, I don't deserve your forgiveness. And he also suspected that we aren't actually able to forgive him and so he he looked away for a while and then after that, my mother looked at him and just kept caring for him.

A few days into it. My uncle was insistent that whatever I will get after I die I deserve because of my actions. So just leave me letting me be. And my mother looked at him. I remember Rodney, my mother asking one of the most profound questions I've heard.

My mother asked my uncle, could you use your finger to point at anybody here who you think deserves to go to heaven, who's lived a life that is so right? My uncle looked, and my mother said, that's it. It's all by grace. All of us. None of us deserve it. That's why it's a gift. And Rodney, it was just tears. As we saw my mother lead my uncle to the Lord and I came back with such an understanding of the gospel after the day like, like, like I've never seen.

And all this change is happening, simply, my mother obviously, heard the gospel from Pastor Peter, but she would have never been in the church space, if it wasn't for Compassion. and Compassion would never have been able to sustain its work in the past if it wasn't for Heather. And so I think about some of these connected pieces, names connected to names, churches connected to churches, individuals connected individuals, and I'm just saying what a tapestry of God's amazing plan.

Rodney Olsen

Fast forward, you finished your schooling and then went on to university. What happened then?

Richmond Wandera 

I had a passion to fight corruption, I had heard at the time that Uganda was the sixth most corrupt country in the world and my vision and dream was to heal my corrupt country by training accountants.

So I went and studied very hard. And I graduated on top of my class with a bachelor's degree in accounting. And I graduated with such good grades that the university retained me as a tutorial assistant and I began to lecture at the university and I was passionate about teaching accounting, especially the ethical side of accounting. And that was a wonderful time but then, Rodney, it just kept before me the story of my mother and how she was completely freed from this unforgiveness and this bitterness that was very common in the Naguru Slum.

I thought, look, I mean, our community in Naguru needs accountants and it needs business people and it needs the health and food and support but what I think our community needs is that which changes us on the inside, that which brings hope.

So I began to pursue pastoral ministry and Pastor Peter, who was my senior pastor then was then promoted to become the General Secretary of the Baptist Union of Uganda and so Pastor Peter said to me, Richmond, I think it's time. It's time for you to become the senior pastor of this church. And so Rodney I knelt down before a group of elders and witnesses who basically named me the senior pastor of the very church that rescued me as a child.

So I began to serve, but without training, and so I began to serve very diligently and later on the Lord opened the door for me to do a master's degree in spiritual formation and discipleship. Then it just hit me just hit me like a ton of bricks that now I was in the top 1% of pastors in my country who would finally now got theological training. That's like, wow, to whom much is given, much is also required. And so I pulled myself together and I began to pray and ended up launching the Pastor's Discipleship Network, which is a ministry that brings pastors together to study the Word to acquire ministry tools and ministry skills so that they can go and teach the Bible accurately but also lead ministry effectively.

And so I began that with a focus on Kampala City, my city that I love. And I did not know that God had such a bigger vision for that. Today, we've expanded way beyond Kampala City across the nation to four other countries. So we're in South Sudan, we're in the Democratic Republic of Congo, we're in Rwanda and we're in Uganda.

In the next year, we'll be launching our space in Kenya, where pastors come together to study the Word of God and to disciple each other. And so I look back and look at the number we're Rodney, we're now at 6,000. 6,000 pastors in the East African space that are part of this network, and we're diligently discipling each other and learning. And I think that where did it all start and I can't escape the fact that all this potential was dying on the street until a 15 year old girl put up her hand and said, I'll make a difference, I will join that fight.

Rodney Olsen

Life is so very different now to what it was for that eight year old boy, that happy eight year old boy whose life changed in an instant, and so much has happened since then. We talked before about the voices of poverty speaking to you. Now we know that they were wrong. We know that there were counter voices. But do those voices sometimes still try to get in your head?

Richmond Wandera 

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I, I'll tell you just one specific story when I was invited to a very high profile dinner, and I honestly didn't believe I deserved to enter that space because I had categorized myself as being lower in the community strata and I decided, look, I don't know if it's gonna be very awkward walking through this space where everyone is a leader with such a good background such a good education. What would I be doing in this space?

And yes, those voices kept getting into my head but that's why I'm passionate about breaking those lies. I got help. I remember Steve Wilson, a gentleman who has been very very helpful to me in helping me identify these lies that continue and linger on because it's not that black and white where you can identify it.

Sometimes it's there and you don't even know. It's been with you so long that that becomes your new normal and till someone on the outside looks and says hello Richmond, why do you look at yourself like that? Why are you so constantly disqualifying yourself from opportunities, disqualifying yourself from our conversations?

Wow, I need that and I realize, man, some of these lies still linger on in some way but will probably not as it is in some of the children's lives but I think for me, it's a constant battle.

And that's why the more I talk to children about this the more I talk to fellow Compassion kids about it, the more I free myself from some of these things, and the sharper my eyes get in identifying some of these lies.

And so yes Rodney, sometimes it's a constant battle. And I think in some way, it is an onslaught from the enemy to really affect our identity not just in Uganda, but around the world. There is an identity crisis. There are people who are wondering who they are, what they are, and inside people's hearts, there's always this tickling thought, I mean, what if I live my life more fully? What if I really unleash the potential that's inside of me, but quickly, then they quiet that voice? Because I, you know, probably not today, maybe tomorrow I'll I'll press that or press into that thought a little bit more in other day, but not now. And so it's just constant postponing of, of this suspicion that I could actually do more than I'm currently doing, but they keep extending it to tomorrow. And I think that that's it's pronounced even more in the poverty space.

But I know that most people will recognize it and it's, it's the more we fight in our own lives and feel the impact that happens when we release ourselves more fully into serving others into being a blessing into making a difference, then the more we can to release others into their full potential.

Rodney Olsen

You already touched on a real message for you, and that is that we should be living more simply so that others may simply live.

Richmond Wandera

Yeah.

Rodney Olsen

Maybe that's a thought that you'd like to leave with us today.

Richmond Wandera

Yeah, Rodney. I honestly believe that. It's not that complicated. Every time I choose, or I volunteer to live with less immediately that single decision, even though I make it now, it immediately frees up time, resources and talent, so that I could then allocate that to someone else.

I mean, I'll just give you an example right now. So if I was going to have a meal today, and the meal, let's say costs $5. And I decided I am not having that meal, because I want to live simply, I'm just going to spend through today thinking and reflecting and pondering on the thought of what does it mean to make a difference, and I'm just not gonna have that meal.

Immediately $5 is freed and that $5 is not just freed, it's also the time that have taken for that meal, that's also freed up and so I could give that $5 to somebody, as well as it could be spend that one hour which I would have walked to the place, had the meal and then walk back and I probably walked to another place and maybe there's a refugee family that's down the street that has a young boy that cannot speak English and is struggling in class and I could I could do that, or I could walk down the street and work with somebody, maybe someone who was disability or a special need and just spend time with them.

Well, I could call up somebody who's struggling to understand something and basically, so I mean, it's a simple thing, but it's actually very radical. And when a person decides, like, look, I could spend all my money buying the latest toys and the latest this, or I could just choose to say, look, I have chosen, this is my life, I make a decision today to live simply. That's my choice. Nobody's forcing it on me. It's my voluntary choice. And when someone decides that, immediately that frees up resources, it frees up time and frees up talent, to be able to invest into the world and if that investment is made in people, it makes all the difference.

Rodney Olsen 

And we get off the treadmill that the world wants us to stay on.

Richmond Wandera 

Exactly.

Rodney Olsen 

Richmond it's been such a delight to talk to you. Thank you so much for your time.

Richmond Wandera 

Thank you Rodney.

Emily Olsen

Thank you for listening to bleeding daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

This is a short episode that explains a little about Bleeding Daylight and its host, Rodney Olsen.