Joel and Steve's first actual podcast together was in April of 2017, when Steve interviewed Joel for his Grateful Dead podcast.

We don't try to be better at all in this conversation - beyond the fact that the Grateful Dead have and continue to inspire us to be better people.

This is a really fun talk, even if you don't care about (or even hate) the Grateful Dead.  If you want to hear more check out the Dead cast at:

http://negdpodcast.podbean.com/

It's been dormant for some time, but there are 31 episodes - all curated by Steve, for Joel.

Please email Joel and Steve at [email protected], follow us on Instagram @TryingToBeBetterPodcast.

Thanks for listening!

Joel and Steve