In this podcast extra, MSNBC anchor and attorney Ari Melber reports on the data on gender and racial diversity across U.S. institutions, providing a factual and historical lens for recent attacks on diversity programs and recruitment -- which are often heated and sometimes misleading. The report rigorously compares asserted claims about qualifications and merit by some critics of "DEI" programs with Trump's hiring approach in his second term. Melber also discusses legitimate, long running debates about affirmative action policy to misleading claims about the facts on diverse representation in Congress and top corporations, and efforts to misuse the policy debate for political ends or to stoke racial division.

Plus, listen to Melber's 2017 conversation with Vanita Gupta and Ilya Shapiro, as well as his 2018 discussion with Alice Walker.