Breakfast with Stephen

In today's episode, we'll be shining a light on ableism, a form of discrimination faced by people with disabilities, whether physical, mental, or cognitive.

Our special guest is Caroline Vernon, a business coach and diversity, equity, and inclusion champion. Caroline opens up about her connection to ableism, sparked by her sister with Down syndrome. 

Caroline highlights the importance of creating inclusive environments where individuals with disabilities are empowered to thrive. 

Listen to this episode of Pity Party Over to learn how, by advocating for accessibility and fostering empathy, we can build a more equitable and compassionate world.

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TRANSCRIPT

Stephen Matini: So professionally, how did you get interested in what you do today? Have you always been in this line of work, or is this something that has evolved?

Caroline Vernon: You know, I've been in the world of work in regards to employee engagement and coaching, and so it was just kind of what I'm doing now as practice leader of a coaching organization. It just made sense. It, it was a natural progression, natural transition to focusing on something else. 

You know, within the world of work, I've always had an interest in coaching and I've always believed in the power of coaching. So it was a natural transition to go from employee engagement and selection and talent acquisition and career development into career transition and more into leadership development as well.

Stephen Matini: And I wanna ask you, as someone who does also coaching in the whole field, let's call it learning and development. I've done training, I've done different aspects, but then I've noticed that the only thing that still gives me a tremendous amount of satisfaction is coaching. What are you find in coaching that maybe you haven't found in other aspect of our field?

Caroline Vernon: Just that authentic relationship, those authentic conversations. They can be raw and I really like to help people and empower people to find their authentic voice because, you know, a lot of people never go there . They don't explore that side of themselves. They don't take control of their own destiny as far as their careers are concerned. 

So being in career coaching specifically really has been a really powerful experience in my career. To see people that have never even spent time developing themselves or even thinking about their path or their career journeys to where they end up after coaching and how they see their careers differently and how they plan to empower or advocate for themselves in the workplace. I just, it's a really powerful experience to me.

Stephen Matini: The one thing that I love the most about coaching, it is probably the same reason you pointed out it, just the genuine conversation. And I love the fact that in that relationship we can be ourselves. That can be very transparent and open, and I really love the fact that I can provide that space for people which often they cannot find in other parts of the job. You become a brilliant advocate of people and their singularities and anything that they stand for. And how did you get interested in, in ableism, which is basically, you know, the first topic that you and I talked and when we met,

Caroline Vernon: I have a sister with Down syndrome and I have always been her interpreter throughout her life. So when I heard about the concept of ableism, and it just was something I was naturally drawn to, and I really sunk time into learning what ableism actually is, how it shows up in our daily lives, how it shows up in the workplace. So that's my experience with learning about ableism. 

I read an article one time, that's really where it started, is this article, I know there was no malice of forethought and it was supposed to be a beautiful, joyful experience. In the article, the gentleman that wrote the article expressed this joyful experience or shared this joyful experience about his brother, but he shared the words, my brother is a low functioning downsy. A lot of people call people with down syndrome, Downsy. They say this down syndrome person or not person with down syndrome.

That's where the first vision of ableism came to life for me. It's like the slow functioning downsy. There was a picture of him holding a baby and the quote was something like, nobody has ever let this boy hold our family's babies. This gentleman goes on to say, I did and it was a joyful experience and he's a low functioning downsy, and it really stuck with me for a long period of time. 

And so I wrote a long article and posted it on LinkedIn about ableism and how just those words, how they impact people with Downs syndrome, how those, how labeling them as a low functioning downsy continues to perpetuate the stigma and continues to marginalize this group of individuals. And that's really where I vowed to never use language like that about my sister and to educate people around me to never use language like that. And the reasons why, you know, how hurtful that is to that community,

Stephen Matini: You know, in the fight, you know, for diversity and becoming aware that we all come in different ships and size, oftentimes language become this displaced that some people perceive to be some sort of a battlefield. You know? And now I cannot say this term, I cannot say that term. I get censored if I, if I use it. So, and I, and, and I agree that it's really important to be sensitive to the words that we use. In your experience, ableism can be combated purely based on being aware of language or what else has worked in your experience?

Caroline Vernon: Being aware of how the language actually impacts the people that it's referring to or that's it's speaking about, but also how it impacts people around you. I've heard the word, this is a terrible word and I, I only use it in this, the R word. 

So I'll, I'll use it once and then I'll refer to it as the R word. Yes, retard. I've heard that used still today in the workplace as far as we've come, we haven't come as far as we need to. And I don't care actually who uses it. I will always speak up and say, that word offends me. That is a hurtful word that we used in, in our modern language for many years to actually describe somebody, you know, with down syndrome or rather neurodiverse with other neurodiverse conditions. And it's a hurtful word. And it, like I said before, it further marginalizes this certain group of community or or certain group of people, you need to get away from further marginalizing this group.

Stephen Matini: You know, I wanna ask you ableism and this is something that I'm asking you out of sheer ignorance. Is ableism connected also to ageism or other type of issues or, or specifically is connected to neurodiversity?

Caroline Vernon: It's specifically connected to neurodiversity, typically. Ageism is its own beast, just like racism is its own. And ableism refers to those that have diverse abilities. So not necessarily ageism or racism.

Stephen Matini: You know why I'm asking you this? Because recently I got trained by this phenomenal woman who focuses on ageism. We are supposed to deliver a training in fall about this one. There's a client, there's a company that essentially has a difficult time attracting younger people and keeping them, you know, she's gonna be one who provides some basics about ageism, how that works. And so she explained to me all the, you know, psychological, sociological ramification on that. And then eventually we have to come up basically with a plan, you know, with the participants to start slowly changing the culture so that can be more inclusive. And a lot of the things that she covered somehow reminded me of the same challenges that I've seen you know, for racial discrimination or even things that, that you share with me.

Caroline Vernon: I don't think it matters if it's racism, ageism, or ableism. It's any of those situations are like a dark cloud. You know, they cast a shadow that can never be escaped from unless we educate one another and we advocate for those that this language or this discrimination is targeting its impact, whether it's ableism or ageism or racism or sexism. Its impact is relentless and it's deeply emotional. So it's one of those situations that even though it has its own word, the impact is the same.

Stephen Matini: To make things even worse, and more complicated is the fact that this conversation has taken epic proportion. You know, particularly in some countries like the US has become very polarized around the notion of what is freedom of speech? The fact that a certain words, it should not be used that way or should not be used at all. As some people feel that just censorship. What are your thoughts about, you know, what about really freedom of speech, this ridiculous conversation that is happening?

Caroline Vernon: There is a fine line between freedom of speech and using ableist or racist or, you know, sexist language. It's about respect. It's about fighting for dignity, and it's about not further stigmatizing that community. It has turned in very political. I'm not not sure why it's been associated with woke culture. It's not a political issue. It's about respecting one another. Each of us have a diverse ability. It's about empowering each other and lifting each other rather than using language that tears each other down. The awareness of it is the most important aspect of it. It has nothing to do with, you know, whether you're on the left or the right. It has everything to do with being a decent, respectful human being.

Stephen Matini: You know, this polarity happens all the time. You read it on the news in the us it's almost like witnessing the existence of to different countries. So in your job, in your work as a person who leverages neurodiversity, combating ableism, when you were faced with the hostility of, let's say, with some people that somehow could not quite grasp it, what has been like a successful strategy in order to reconcile these two opposite positions?

Caroline Vernon: More inclusive education is the best way to kind of reconcile that. Educating those that are just not aware of even what ableism is. You know, it's not a word that's thrown around a lot, even when I go looking for it, you know, I don't see that word used a lot yet. Any opportunities I have to educate people that don't understand the impact of ableist language. You know, I think that's been the most successful way. 

But also being respectful about  that are unaware, I think is very important. It's not the immediate fire back. Don't say that. That's ridiculous. You shouldn't use that language. It's also being respectful in my approach to educating people that are unaware of what ableist language even is.

Stephen Matini: If someone is the target of the language, whichever type of neurodiversity the person can experience based on your experience, what would you say to those people? Maybe they could be listeners of this episode in the future. What would it be the best way they could do? How should they react to the attack?

Caroline Vernon: I'm thinking of my sister, for example. We've always taught her just to ignore, so ignore ableist language, ignore comments that don't necessarily align with her abilities and don't empower her to believe in herself. What I would suggest is exactly what I do, and that is respectful education. That is important for them to feel empowered, to be able to defend unquote themselves against language that is disrespectful. 

Yeah, I think that's probably the best way to do that, is to continue to educate and to continue to advocate for themselves and for those that have diverse abilities like them, but in a respectful way. I don't think lashing out ever helps a situation. It's not who these individuals are. However, you know, respectful education, I think is the best way to combat further ableism in their relationships with people.

Stephen Matini: Have you ever organized maybe for a client or for a company, you were working for a program actually to create greater awareness around ableism? And I'm asking you this question just in case someone will listen to this episode and maybe they could be interested in, in structuring, you know, th this education you're talking about in their workplace. I don't know if you've ever done that before.

Caroline Vernon: I have. It's been years and years ago I worked for an organization that we used an assessment that focuses on the individual's strengths. And we provided that assessment to individuals that were a part of a leadership program within the Special Olympics. We started with this assessment and they learned what their strengths were. And from there it was such a natural progression from this specific group of people who have always been told that once you overcome this obstacle, you will get better at this. 

And once you overcome this weakness, you will be able to do this. We never spoke those words. We said, here's what you're great at. Here's what you should really lean into as far as your strengths are concerned. And with that information we advocated and empowered these individuals to learn how to be leaders in their communities. And there was a graduation ceremony where they got to show off a, a talent or a skills.

It was beautiful, it was at least a 12 week cohort type of program. And at graduation, I've never seen so many smiles. And even throughout the whole program, like I said, we were focused on what they do well and what they do right, instead of the things that they can't exactly master or haven't been able to do. It was such a beautiful program, it made such a lasting impact on me. I think about it, I think about those individuals that were in the program program. My sister actually graduated from that program as well. Yeah, it's definitely one of the highlights of my career.

Stephen Matini: Has your sister ever told you what it means to experience ableism? I don't know if she ever experienced it.

Caroline Vernon: No. She's never told me what it feels like to experience ableism. She has been pretty sheltered. We've kept her pretty sheltered as a way to protect her. You know, my mom has kept her very sheltered , she's almost 50. And for the first time in her life, she will live independently starting this summer. She will live in a community for people with neurodiversity. It's a beautiful, very protected communities. 

So she's never specifically addressed that ableism. I actually shared what ableism meant with her. You know, I've never, never sat down and asked her, cuz I know I've seen it throughout the years. I've seen that she's experienced it. We just didn't have a name for it. We didn't have a label for it. We just called it people that were rude to her or people that disrespected her to make a very long answer. No, she's really never told me what it felt like to be disrespected in that way.

Stephen Matini: As you're talking, there are so many thoughts, so many feelings that come to mind, you know, because a, as you pointed out, ableism is something very, very specific. Discrimination. It really shows up in so many different ways. And so it could be, as we said based on your ethnicity. It could be around a sexual orientation, the fact that gender, whatever that is, you know, and every single aspect is very different. They had different fights to fight. And somehow, in some ways there are certain, I think commonalities.

Caroline Vernon: It's not your burden to bear, you know, how other people think and how their beliefs aren't your burden to bear. That's the exact same way I feel about people who are thoughtless when it comes to the language that they use or their actions against a specific group of individuals. It's not for me to wage some kind of war. 

I'm a peaceful human being. , my approach has always been to never just shove it down anybody's throat. I don't think it helps. I think it further marginalizes people, groups of people, you know, diverse groups of people. I think that approach doesn't help. And you're absolutely right. It's what's in your backpack that you have to carry.

Stephen Matini: I think that you know, being okay with whichever life has given you, I think is such an important thing. And it's interesting because the other day, as I was talking to the woman that I mentioned before who focuses on ageism, she says something really interesting. She said when I started training, one of the first exercises I asked people is, how old do you think I am ? And she's in her fifties and she's like, you have no idea people's reaction. It's like, you know, you exploded a bomb and what people do you order to dodge the connection . And at the end she said, you know, the, the first step towards fighting that is actually you being okay with the fact that you are aging. You know, and it's okay and all that comes with it, you know, but it becomes painful, hurtful instead of when you yourself, you're not okay with the whole notion of time going by. So she really made me think a lot because all these forms that we're talking about are so pervasive and they're so imbued in our cultures. You know, the language that we use and the stuff that we say, you are the culprit. You're not aware of that. And I agree with you. The first step is to be aware. So your sister is going to move out. Are you sad about it?

Caroline Vernon: In the back of my mind, I'm slightly worried in my heart, which I think is where it matters most, is I'm happy for her. She needs to have her own life. She has has been a very beautiful and loyal, steadfast companion to my mother, who is 92 her entire life. She has been her caregiver, she's been her confidant, she's been her just all around pal. But she needs her own life. And so, you know, she's approaching her 50th birthday coming up and it's very symbolic to me that it, she is approaching this milestone birthday and moving out independently for the first time in her life. I think it's going to be something that she really enjoys. They are very attuned to the needs of this particular group of individuals. You know, I, I have to keep telling myself, it's gonna be fine, it's gonna be fine.

Will I miss her? Yes, she lives with me. Both my mom and my sister live with me and they've lived with me for the past six months. And it'll be strange for a little bit. There will be a little bit of emptiness in this house, but I have to keep reminding myself, you know, it's time for her to fly. I know that she will be really happy once she gets used to it. So we're gonna start slow. It's gonna be a couple of days a week versus, you know, just from here to there. So that slow process will be exciting to set up her new place and decorate and everything. So that part is really exciting and I'm excited for her mostly, but I'm a little sad for myself.

Stephen Matini: Yeah. Also a conversation that I've had countless of times in the past with people, and I hadn't mostly believe it or not, around, well sometimes when we talked about LGBTQ rights, you know, and sometimes women's rights and whatever they might be. People naturally they try to understand something by using their own experiences. And that's normal to do that. This is my life, these are my experiences, and I compare it to what I'm hearing just to get a sense of how I should orient myself. And that's fine. But what I say to people is, you know, that's okay. But then you have to stop because you will never live that life. You will never know how it feels to be someone who experiences neurodiversity or to be a woman. So realistically, all that you can do is just learn. You have to shut up . You have to listen and try as best as you can to understand that. Because no matter how much you try, you will never know how it feels to be someone of a different hue. You know, I say shut up, but like, you know, just be humble and listen and grow and to appreciate that experience that will never be yours. I think it's the best way. Definitely for me.

Caroline Vernon: That is the best approach in my, my opinion as well. It's just, you know, you know, that's the old adage of walking a mile in someone else's shoes. You know, you don't know what those shoes feel like. I'll never know what Chrissy has experienced. I'll never know what people that are on the autism spectrum experience in the world, in the workplace. I do know that people, at least in the United States, neurodiverse individuals in the workplace have experienced layoffs more than neurotypical individuals. Especially as of late, you know, it's estimated that 30 to 40% of neurodiverse individuals are now unemployed, which is a significant increase over those that are neurotypical. I don't walk in their shoes. I don't know how it feels to be in a workplace that sometimes doesn't understand the differences that they have inside the workplace. I don't understand how it, they feel being impacted by so many layout. That's a big percentage of individuals that are experiencing, you know, joblessness right now. It's important to be respectful and to just be humble and learn.

Stephen Matini: Knowing anything, everything you know today, you know about neurodiversity. Do you think that the term neurodiversity in neurotypical are, are they still the right terms?

Caroline Vernon: As far as I'm concerned, I believe they're the right terms. I'm not the governing body on what terms are correct. I believe they are , that's a good question. If I'm incorrect, I hope what somebody would respectfully correct me on that language, but as far as I'm concerned, I believe neurodiverse and neurotypical are still the correct terms to use. In all my readings and things, those are the, the words that are used.

Yeah. It's like the word disability. I prefer the word diverse ability. I prefer those words over disability. However, some of the diverse ability community say that disability is the word that they use, I wanna use whatever y they use, I want to address them in the way that they want to be addressed. You know, it just varies so much that I, I feel exactly the same way. Neurodiverse to me sounds better, but it is it to comfort myself. You know, it's saying that's not right, that's not, it's not about me, it's, it's about how they want to be referred to, you know? Because neurodiverse includes things like a DHD and dyslexic. So maybe if you are autistic, you want to be known as autistic, not neurodiverse, because that includes more different conditions in, in that word.

Stephen Matini: Another simple rule that I gave myself is that whatever makes the person happy, I'm going to use it. Once again, I know if it's at the right parallel, probably not, but like the whole conversation now about gender fluidity, you know, some people want to be called they and have plenty of people that say, oh my God, this is ridiculous, this. And then I said, listen, it's not that hard. If someone enjoys that, how difficult can it be for you to adopt that word? I mean, I don't see the point, you know, if someone gives someone else happiness, why does it matter that that's only matters really just to be happy and just use it. I mean, it just, you don't have to become a different person. Just simply be aware of what makes someone else happy and just go with the flow. I mean whatever, you know?

Caroline Vernon: Agreed. And that I think a lot of the time is fear of that, of just not understanding that point of view. And you're right, it is absolutely not hard. It is not difficult to be kind and to use language that people want to have used about them, or words that they want to be used to describe them or called, you know, if somebody wants to be called they, it's not hard to say they , you know, it's really not difficult and you're exactly right. If it makes them happy and it makes them feel seen and heard, then it's not up to me to decide what other people wanna be called.

Stephen Matini: Caroline, we touched different points. One question that I'd like to ask, you know, at the end of our chat, is there anything specific that would be important for our listeners to take away from this conversation? Because we touched different things, but based on anything we said, I don't know, is anything that you would like to emphasize?

Caroline Vernon: I believe in the power of educating, educating yourself, educating others around you. I really believe in respectfully educating those that don't understand how powerful words are. I believe that that is important. Employment opportunities, I believe are so important or just any other opportunities for those that are in the neurodiverse community. There is a glaring lack of opportunity in the workplace right now. And if this can change the mind of one person that's recruiting or hiring right now for a job and they are considering, or they're really teetering on whether to hire somebody with the neurodiversity, I encourage that person, that one person, if even if it's just one, to give tho that person a chance to educate themselves in their abilities rather than their disabilities and people would be pleasantly surprised.

Stephen Matini: Thank you so much for spending time with me. I send all my love to you and to Krissy for the moving out to be as painless as possible.

Caroline Vernon: . Thank you. I really appreciate that. It's coming up a lot sooner than I know my mother is ready for as well. But it's time.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit breakfastwithstephen.substack.com

The guest of this episode of Pity Party Over is Simona Curci, an organizational development practitioner who has honed a practical approach to managing change from many years of helping people, teams, and organizations.

Simona believes that change is a dynamic process that resembles a dance requiring forward and backward movements. Sometimes, the best option is to stay still and let things be as they are so people can adjust.

Simona points out that you can’t force everyone to move in the same direction with the same tempo. If you push too hard, you may end up creating more resistance. 

Listen to this episode of Pity Party Over to learn how to find the perfect rhythm to navigate change successfully.

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This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit breakfastwithstephen.substack.com

Visual impairment and blindness are major public health issues worldwide, especially in low- and middle-income countries, according to the World Health Organization. In West Africa, blindness prevalence is a pressing concern.

Resilience takes many forms. In this episode of Pity Party Over, Dr. Abbey shares his passion for ophthalmology, challenges, and the profound impact on patients through relentless optimism and resilience in a context with limited resources.

Join us in this episode of Pity Party Over to learn how accountability and acceptance pave the way to incredible transformations. 

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TRANSCRIPT

Stephen Matini: So how are you? How's your day?

Elie Abbey: I have had a great day. I was operating this morning. I just finished, I changed place because you know, in morning I used to work in another one hospital and now I, at my own facility, I finish operating at 1:30 PM Here is 3:30.

Stephen Matini: How do you keep the stress of being a doctor down?

Elie Abbey: I think it is just because I love doing that job, paying attention and not to be too much involved and I take care of work balance. Also, I used to manage time to be able to, you know, do different things like playing tennis, writing, being involved in different activities.

Stephen Matini: Have you always known that you wanna be a doctor?

Elie Abbey: ? No, I first have my, you know, L level. The L level is here in Tobo we call it is three years before university. Then at the end of the three years you, you pass on exam and you have the A level. 

In French, we call it baccalauréat. And after that diploma I decided that I’ll become a petrochemical (engineer) I was interested in engineering and science, but my father was like, oh guy, you are young, you should go to medicine studies. It can be good. Then I was like, okay, we wanna do, you know something, I'm not going to do medicine. I'm not going to go for medicine. Only I will take the exams of in January school and medicine. Then fortunately we started medicine courses two weeks before starting in January exam. I liked medicine after the two weeks and I decided to spend medicine.

Stephen Matini: Can you imagine if the opposite had happened in your life? Could have taken a completely different route.

Elie Abbey: Yes.

Stephen Matini: Like, you know, if you started out engineering and you like that one. Yeah.

Elie Abbey: Yes, sure.

Stephen Matini: How is to be a doctor in Togo?

Elie Abbey: Oh, being doctor in Togo is such a privilege. You know, people respect you a lot, but you are not well paid as a doctor in Togo. It is a privilege and building your own career, but it is one of the best profession here. People like doctors, people like their children going to medical school.

Stephen Matini: And how did you decide to become an eye doctor? Why did you choose a specialty?

Elie Abbey: Oh, yes. Becoming eye doctor, I decided when I was in my sixth year of medical school. Then here in Togo you have to do eight years of medical school to become general practitioner and after that you decide to go to specialty for four or five years. 

Then when I was in sixth year, we were doing ophthalmology courses and after two courses I was sure that was my future specialty. Then after the course I came out with the teacher and I told him, I wanna be one of your fellows in few years . 

After that I finished the studies and I worked one year in a rural hospital, a big hospital where I practiced surgery, rheumatology surgery, gynecology surgery, and general surgery. Learning, working with, you know, specialties, auto traumatologist surgeon and then I work in that field for a while and I knew that I love surgery, but I don't want to be stressed like a gynecologist or a surgeon being stressed every time. 

I have been comfort in my choice because you know, in ophthalmology you can do a clinic, you can do surgery then, and it is a very soft specialty. Yes, very, very useful. Then after one year working there, I decided to go directly to specialty and I have had a chance that one ophthalmology center here in Lomé wanted someone to work with them. Then they decided to support my studies and that is the whole story.

Stephen Matini: I've always wondered how medical students choose a specialty because I have a lot of friends who are doctors, you know, and they tell me the stories I what you just said, you know, I tried a bit of this, a bit of that, maybe I'm going to pursue this route, the other one, and I've always wondered how you choose a specialty, but it must be some sort of a calling, something that pulls you in.

Elie Abbey: Yes. When I was doing my thesis for general practitioner, sure it was not that easy. I decided to do it in oncology service because the teachers there, the mentors are very, very smart and help you work very fast. After the thesis, they were like, why won't you come here to be specialized in oncology or an auto pathology? 

And I was thinking about it, but finally I don't think it'll be the good choice because someone like being in contact with people and that specialty would be a laboratory specialty. I'm not sure I would be very, very good with it. 

I consider different specialties, but finally the only one who fit with me was of ophthalmology and you know when you want something the universe work with them and I have that very, very good opportunity to go directly to specialty. After one year of experiencing the peer, then yes, it wasn't that difficult. I haven't struggled a lot, a lot, a lot before going to specialty, even if in the choice and the opportunity, it was very, very, very fast.

Stephen Matini: What are some of the most common eye conditions that you see as a doctor in your patients?

Elie Abbey: An ophthalmology, the more common eye conditions are, you know, classic conjunctivitis, but the more serious, the more serious issues are glaucoma and cataract here in Togo. Glaucoma and cataracts and that two pathology driving people to blindness. Cataract can drive equal to a curable blindness, but glaucoma is very, very damageable for people's vision because when you lose your vision by glaucoma, it's not possible for the moment to cure it. Then we are most of the time in prevention and treatment at early, early stage of the disease.

Stephen Matini: As I was preparing to talk to you, I ended up in the World Health Organization website and one of the data that I thought it was interesting was the fact that in West Africa there are something like 60,000 people living with blindness. So there's a lot of preventable blindness work that I assume also you as a doctor you're involved with.

Elie Abbey: Sure. Let me give you another statistic. In Togo we have 200,000 people waiting for cataract, cataract surgery, population of 80 million. You have 200,000 people waiting for cataract surgery here, and we are not that much surgeon to cure the people. Cataract surgery help cure cataract, which is not like glaucoma. Glaucoma is, you know, you lose your vision definitely, but in cataract we can cure it. Then this blindness in west Africa, I think the data are sure for non-curable vision problems. Yeah, issues.

Stephen Matini: How do you deal with these challenges, you know, in a place where resources are more limited, let's say compared to other countries?

Elie Abbey: The challenge is a daily basis challenge. You have to be every time giving your best because for example, in this week I would have to operate four days. Today I operate tomorrow afternoon, I will operate Thursday morning, I will operate Friday afternoon, I will operate because the need is huge. And when you know that the need is huge, you should be more committed than when you know everything is okay. Yeah, there is no huge need. I like seeing people following day of the surgery when we remove what we, we used to cover the eye after the surgery, people can see. 

You see a smile and like you can see their life have just changed. I don't know how to quantify it, but it is a real motivation for me. Every day when I'm walking, even when I'm tired, I say to myself, I say to myself that what I'm doing is very important because this man or this woman I'm operating tomorrow, his life will change then I think it is sufficient to be facing all the challenges to build that up. A great project to be able to be more impactful in people life then yes.

Stephen Matini: You know, in these past few days you are the second person who tells me that I do what I do because I love to see people smiling. And the other person who said that is a musician, you know, is a violinist, you know, who I interviewed a few days ago, someone really special, a wonderful person and he said I do what I do because I hope through my music to make people smile, you know? And you're saying the same through your job as an eye doctor. 

I wanna ask you as far as the cultural context of Togo, you know, how does that impact the perception that people have of you as an eye doctor?

Elie Abbey: People like me because I made myself available for everyone. I'm not, I'm like them. They like coming to someone can give them a solution to their problem and you know, I used to deal with different classes of age of patients. 

When I operate people sometimes there are 60 years old or 50 years old, 70. But when I used to do consultation clinical activities, you have more younger peoples and people like coming to me because they know that we can have, you know, direct conversation. 

No barrier between me and them. I think I have a good impact on people making myself available to them, help them to come to me. Sometimes you finish operating someone and the following day after remove doing the wound there that people will start pronouncing, you know, blessings on your life. 

Here in Africa, people like pronouncing blessing on people's life is like, oh, my son have done great job on my eye. I can see now I'm blessing you, you and your family, your relative, everyone that you will be in your health, you'll be there to help us. That is, you know, a daily basis. Same, i I live tomorrow I will have two or three people blessing me because today I operate 10 people and tomorrow their vision will be very good then.

Stephen Matini: Have you ever wished to be an eye doctor in a different country?

Elie Abbey: Yes, here the need is huge. I think it is the best place I can be because people need me here more than, you know, a developed country and in Europe or USA or somewhere people, the need is not that huge. 

But sometimes I want to do more than what I'm doing now. I would like to be able to do refractive surgery. I would like to be able to do, you know, retina surgery. I would like to do amazing things according to, you know, the evolution of ophthalmology. But here that is difficult to attend that level and that is the only reason why. Sometime I think about if I were at another place I can be able to do that. 

But my vision is that in perhaps 10 years we can be able to do the same things here through my projects. Then that is a vision I'm having now and working to be able to achieve that goal to allow my countryman to benefit the same level of eye care people can dream of in develop country, Europe or America. Yes, and I think it is possible.

Stephen Matini: You said that you love your relationship with your patients and you share that your patients, they give you well wishes, you know their blessings, you know, to you and your family. What have you learned from your patients?

Elie Abbey: First of all, a resilience. I mean, resilient people, people dealing with vision, impairment, blurry vision, but they keep being positive, they keep being confident in life, and I learned confident. They are confident on me, they are confident that I can solve the problem. That is why they come to me. They let me operate them. That means a lot for me. That's helped me to imagine that in every situation in this life, we can find out a solution.

Stephen Matini: Ellie, how do you develop resilience? How do you keep it positive?

Elie Abbey: I think my whole life is resilience story because I come from, I won't say poor family, but middle class. My, my father is he's retired now, but he work in a manufacturer of, you know, phosphate. Phosphate is a mineral in Togo. Here we produced phosphate. Then my father was an electrician in the phosphate industry. 

For example, my father have never had a car or his life. He was driving a, a motorbike to go to work, but he have been able to offer me a very, very, very good education and I think this is an example of resilience. 

Every time relaying on what my father had done with his life, even if he didn't have a huge income, he have been able to give us three of us, me and my two brothers, the best education we can have and we was not needing, you know, basic things in our life then that is an example of resilience and yes, when I was young after the primary school, I used to live in host families to study that need huge residence to go through, you know difficulties living in family from nine years old to, you know, 20, 22 years old.

Elie Abbey: I finished living in families at 20, then more than 10 years struggling with different families, changing places, re-adapting to situations that helped me a lot to have that resilience. Then everywhere I can go in this world, I'm sure that I can be successful.

Stephen Matini: When in the past or even now, you go through a difficult moment, all of us have moments that feel harder. Is there anything specific that you do in order to bring your hope up?

Elie Abbey: When I go through difficult moment, I just throw an eye in the past, just throw an eye at the back I can see that I have been through more difficult things than it is nothing we can go through. It is sufficient for me to look in the past and find the friends. Go ahead.

Stephen Matini: If you had to do it all over again, would you change anything about your past?

Elie Abbey: No. . That's perfect. , I like that difficulties, that difficult moment, the build the manner. Yeah. Now I think that I can change, change in the way I'm doing them, but things happening to me, I'm not sure that I can change them. 

If someone lied to me, I can change that. It is like that. Being able to go through my medical studies and the choices I used to make, even if they are wrong, I say to myself, you have that, that choice, that is the consequences. You have to assume them and go ahead.

Stephen Matini: So if I understood correctly is a combination of taking responsibilities, and understanding what you can and what you cannot control.

Elie Abbey: Yes.

Stephen Matini: I love that , you know, it's not always easy to do that. Sometimes it's easier to complain or to blame other people. Does it ever happen to you?

Elie Abbey: I can say never. I think all of us, we go through situations where we complain we shouldn't stay in that situation complaining. I used to help people around me, my relative, my wife, my brothers. When they are complaining, I just ask them, you are complaining about that situation. Can you change it? 

If you can change it, then change it. If you can change it, let it go and do what you can do, do your best. It is the only thing you can do. Then yes, sometimes I can complain, but I very quickly remind myself that complaining is not a solution, but taking responsibilities and yes, accepting situations, we can't change. That is the real way to achieve goals there.

Stephen Matini: These days the news are so negative, it's all about negative, negative, negative news. Is there anything that worries you?

Elie Abbey: No, no, no. I'm very, very optimistic. Optimism is quite define me the best. I'm not that guy. I will be hearing about situation. Sometimes I just stay and think about the worst situation I can go through. I ask myself, what would you have done in that situation? And the answer is clear. It is. I will deal with it and find a way to find the positive in that situation.

Stephen Matini: Do you think that optimism can be taught to anyone?

Elie Abbey: Yes, some people will learn optimism and apply it in their life very quickly than other people. I'm sure that when you want to share something with someone, you have to be patient, you have to be consistent, you have to be intentional. Then yes, everyone can add a different level. Learn optimism and apply it in its life. Yes,

Stephen Matini: Being optimistic is something that you are, or is this also something that the people of Togo are? Is this a cultural trait of your country?

Elie Abbey: I don't think people are that optimist here. You have optimist people. I think Togo is like random country in this world, , and yes, you have optimist people and people who are complaining every time about their situation, the situation of the country. For example, in Togo here, the political situation is not that good. Some people decide to deal with it, to do something, to change. Even if they can change the political situation, they can change people's lives make it better. Optimism is not cultural here, but you have optimist people and people complaining every day. ,

Stephen Matini: What suggestion would you give to someone young who wants to pursue your same career, to become an eye doctor?

Elie Abbey: In Togo, it is difficult to become a doctor and successful is not that simple. You need to be optimistic, to be courageous and to be okay with, you know, struggling a lot of years before being able to achieve something. 

But if someone, I have a lot of you know, mentees, people following me, young doctors, the same thing, want to build a career like me, depending on, you know, the backgrounds, how that person asking for help. 

Depending on how they manage their life, I can be able to help them. It depends on the one coming to me. If you are decided to do it, you can do it, then I'll just help you. So give you advices, suggestion, and yeah, hold your hand, I can do that. But it depend on the person asking for advice is then yes.

Stephen Matini: Have you ever been involved with the Togo National Blindness Control program? Have you ever worked with the organizations whose aim is to work on preventable blindness?

Elie Abbey: Yes, we are working every time with the national program. I work in two projects. The first project is central, the Ophthalmologic Central, where I, I work in the morning. That center is one of the biggest center operating people here in Togo. 

I used to do about more than a thousand surgeries a year. This center then we work with the program, the National Program of Blindness Prevention, and I also work with another one projects, which is training projects. In that project I'm trainer and I train a young ophthalmologist or ophthalmologist who are not able to do surgery. 

Then that program also collaborate with the national program. Then I can say yes, I'm working with the National Program of Blindness Prevention. Through that two programs, I'm expecting to be able to work more with them through my own projects which is still in building. That's a mobile operating room. I want to build and been able to go through the deep Togo to bring surgery to people who can afford or who can come to capital city or regular cities. 

Stephen Matini: What can I do? What can someone do to help? 

Elie Abbey: The best thing you can do to help me recording this podcast and making people abroad know about my, you know, my work what I'm doing here in Togo, I think it is very important. 

One of my teachers when I was in ophthalmology school, give example, one day when you were doing public health courses, he asked us if a tree who is falling in a forest, if we can hear that tree falling from where we are, we answered no. He asked us then if someone was close to that tree and record the noise that tree have done falling, can someone far from that place hear that tree falling? And we answered, yes. 

That means when you are doing something somewhere, you need someone to talk about it. You need someone to bring the information that this guy is doing that thing here in this country. And you are doing great Stephen.

And I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart because you, you know, spontaneously came to me and you ask that you want to, to have that podcast with me, to know more about what I'm doing and share with your audience. That mean a lot for me. 

That way someone can help me by contacting me directly or contacting my organization to give you know, we are open even if it is advices, contacts or you know, any type of support. Helping people to be able to have that surgeries. I think about in French, we say parrainage. Yes. I don't know if in English it is the same.

Stephen Matini: I don't know parrainage, I have to check up .

Elie Abbey: Like you can be in a different country and decide to have someone to be operated. For example, you, you can say that I want to participate in the surgery of two people. Yeah, by sending money for example, by helping in different ways that we are open. Someone who want to help us can contact me directly by LinkedIn or go to our website, https://precyeux.com/

Stephen Matini: I'm looking, how do you say parrainage? Ah, you know what it is, it's sponsorship!

Elie Abbey: Yes, something like that. Sponsorship.

Stephen Matini: Sponsorship. . Now we know, we talked about different things, you know, during this episode, is there anything that you would like for our listeners to pay attention to, something that will be really important for them to remember out of this episode?

Elie Abbey: I just want to share with them my vision of the world, my positive and optimistic vision of this world. I want them to keep in their minds unlimited possibilities and opportunities here in the world. 

The more important is to believe in what we are doing and not to give up. To keep on fighting, to keep on struggling and working hard for our dreams. And good people are somewhere to help. 

At any moment you can found someone interested in what you are doing and that people can help you, even if it is an advice or a contact or supports. This world is wonderful world full of opportunities and beautiful things. Don't focus on negativity. Just be positive and optimistic, even if it is difficult. That is all for me. .

Stephen Matini: Ellie, thank you so much for your hard work and for being really, truly and inspiration. I am honored to be here with you. Thank you so much for everything you shared. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It was wonderful.

Elie Abbey: Thank you Stephen. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to share what I'm doing, what I believe in. That is amazing. Thank you.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit breakfastwithstephen.substack.com

Are you curious about how organizational culture can foster kindness and transform challenging interactions? Today's guest on the podcast Pity Party Over is Michael G. Neece, a renowned author, speaker, and business strategist.

In the episode, Michael takes us on a journey through his own experiences, where he discovers the value of kindness. He unveils how this remarkable virtue has shaped his understanding of human motivation and workplace dynamics.

We explore the impact of kind awareness and the realization that we seldom know the true motives behind someone's behaviors. We also delve into the power of intentional choices and their ability to bring about positive change in any situation.

Join us on this episode of Pity Party Over to learn how being intentionally kind to ourselves is the first step toward establishing meaningful relationships.

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TRANSCRIPT

Stephen Matini: Michael, when did you realize for the first time that you want to focus on kindness?

Michael Neece: Kindness has always been very important to me. I think I mean, an awful lot of us are raised believing that we should do unto others as they do unto us, right? I mean, it's the, it's the golden rule. We, we all hear about it when we were young. And I think, you know, you, you go through life and then at some point you meet that first person that is not so nice to you, and then you, you wonder what do you do, right? I mean, how, how do you handle that situation? And, you know, do you abandon that idea ...n ideology? Do you abandon that belief system or do you double down on that and somehow find a way to navigate?

Stephen Matini: Did you get interested in kindness also when you were younger? Or is it something that evolved as a professional?

Michael Neece: It's something that I had to really reevaluate as a professional, because you get into the working world and you find that there are people who misinterpret your actions. There are people whose actions are mystifying. And so it was, it was really after, oh, I don't know, two or three really embarrassing shame filled hard moments in the working world that I, I really had to look at kindness again and say, what am I doing wrong? Well, you know, what's, what, what's, what's the problem with how I'm doing it? Or am I, have I abandoned it? And yeah, that was, that was a big problem as well.

Stephen Matini: I believe in the power of choice, and so every single time that we face a difficulty or someone being unkind, we do have a choice in terms of which route to take. What makes people take the kind or the unkind route in your experience?

Michael Neece: I think it's like money. If everybody believes that these pieces of paper convey some sort of value, then, then they do. And as soon as people start having no confidence in it, then you have a run on the bank. And so the whole idea of, you know, you're, you're there and you're trying to be kind to somebody and they're being cruel back, and you can't just tell, you can't tell if they're having just a bad day or if this is a much deeper, you know, longer lasting issue. 

So you, you kind of look around and you see what other people do in response to the conversation that you're having with this person. And if it seems like I, I, if it seems like you're going to get support, then I think people double down on the kindness. And if it looks like you're not gonna get the support, then it's very easy to fall into that trap of trying to fight fire with fire.

Stephen Matini: Do you think that organizational culture plays a role in this?

Michael Neece: Oh, without a doubt. You know, I've, I, I'm currently at a company where we, we have our core values and we put them up on the wall, so to speak. You know, it's, it's on every part of our intranet. We have meetings about it. We have you know, leaders come and talk to us about situations where it wasn't working so well and what did they do. 

And I've been at other companies where you have no idea what the culture is supposed to be, and so it's just kind of whatever people make up in that particular office. And that's a much more uncomfortable situation because it just takes one or two people to turn that in a very strange direction.

Stephen Matini: Is it possible to turn any workplace into a kinder workplace?

Michael Neece: See, I think that's the beauty of kindness is that it is your superpower, Stephen. It is my superpower. It is everybody's in the kindest part of your heart, I think that you can always reach for it. It's easier to reach for, if you've just been to the spa, it's easier to reach for if you've, you know, just awaken, you know, just awaken to your day and you've had a very nice breakfast. I think, you know, the later in the day that it gets, or the less self care you indulge in, the harder it is to find that superpower inside of us. For sure.

Stephen Matini: As you compare yourself now as being someone who's focusing on kindness compared to how you were before, what has changed?

Michael Neece: Ooh. So earlier in my career I definitely had a couple of failings. And, you know, a notable one was when I was very fresh into the working world. I believed in kindness. I believed in doing und undo others, you know the best way that I could. It started off like any job. It had a lot of promise, a lot of hope. I was told, oh, you're the right person for this job. 

We really expect this is gonna work well. And then people started coming to me and telling me how bad the boss was, and I said, no, no, no, no, no. We'll, we'll work it out. We'll, we'll be together as a team. It'll be fine. And, and so I brought my idealism to bear, but I didn't have any sense of realism at that moment. And so I started watching as these bad behaviors really unfolded, and these things that I really didn't wanna see in the workplace.

And so my own kindness practice was not strong. I hadn't had to flex my muscles in the kindness arena before, and suddenly I was, you know, opposed to this person who oversaw every aspect of my work. And I did not respond well, I, I responded quite badly, actually. You know, the, I, I tried to hold the line for a while, but eventually I had you know, I joined the core of angry voices. I became one of the whisperers in the, in the corridors talking about how bad the boss was. It wasn't until I was sitting at his desk looking across the table at him that, you know, and he was, he was repeating back to me one of the mean things that I had said that I thought he had no way of knowing. It wasn't until that moment that I realized how badly flawed my strategy had been.

Michael Neece: Yeah. For the next oh, 15, 20 years, I, I started really researching. I started trying to understand what motivates people, how is it that people can fall into the different traps that we fall into? What are the unspoken undercurrents of all of the meetings that you're in and how to spot those. And so I just, I went on this sort of whirlwind self-education tour trying to understand how to do things better. And so I would definitely say my, my kindness practice has evolved quite a bit since that bad situation, sitting across from the boss and trying to, you know, try, trying to figure out where I had gone astray. So, yeah, no, I'm, I'm very thankful for the fact that I, I decided to double down in that direction. It would've been very easy to simply say, Nope, I'm just gonna fight fire with fire for the rest of my career. And that's apparently what the working world is. And and I'm glad I didn't go that direction.

Stephen Matini: As you're talking, there are all kinds of ideas and memories that come to mind, or situations that I personally went through. Is it easier to be kind or to be unkind?

Michael Neece: I think both things are easy. I think both things are quite easy. I, I think what you turn into a habit is the thing that you're going to reach for. It's, I'm gonna, I'm gonna confess something here to all of your listeners, which is really embarrassing. But when I hop into the car and I know I have to commute for 45 minutes or for an hour, the way I started my driving when I was 16 or 17, I saw it as a game. 

And for every gain that I made, getting in front of somebody, getting ahead, going fast, I saw that as being very, very sexy. Very good, very happy. You know, it, it, it's only been in the last maybe several years that I've been able to look at my driving practice and say, what if that person who's trying to cut me off and is trying to go fast, is trying to get to the hospital to say goodbye their last goodbyes to a dying relative?

Well, now that I've reframed everything, now I'm fine with anybody getting in front of me. I'm fine with letting people, you know cut, you know, cut and go fast and, you know, do, do the little shortcuts because I, I don't know their situation. I don't know why they're acting the way that they're acting. And for me to assume that me getting to the pharmacy is more important than whatever they have to do is silly. 

I, I don't know that for sure that, you know, that being said, I don't like having people cut me off. And I, I'm glad to get out of the traffic , but but your, your question of which one's easier, I think it's, which one do you try to prioritize? You know, is it, is it, you know, me centered, or is it the collective good centered? 

I spent a little bit of time in Addis Ababa in Ethiopia. There are all kinds of different tradespeople trying to cross an intersection and go through the rotary. And what you find is that there are, at least during my time there, there were very few accidents because while people are trying to nose their car forward through the walking traffic, nobody is trying to be harsh and angry and mean about it. 

They're, they're simply trying to figure out, where's my place and how can I get to my objective without giving somebody else a, a bad day? And so, so again, I I just turned back to the idea of it. It's, it's whatever you're prioritizing, and it's whichever habit you are building. If you're actively thinking about building kindness, I think you try to act kindly whenever you can.

Stephen Matini: You know, as a driver, I think I'm still, your16, 17 years old, , I, I try not to drive altogether because it drives me insane when people behave the way you describe, you know, more selfish. And so I try, I try to use public transportation, you know, tram. And really, I try not to drive. I love driving, but it's a huge source of stress, you know, particularly these days. When you speak about kindness, all these this mindset that you have, can ... are you thinking predominantly about the workplace or also life in general?

Michael Neece: I mean, I think the two things feed each other. I mean, especially having gone through a pandemic where it, all of the lines got very blurry, you know, is this, is this my work time or is this my personal time? I'm answering an email at midnight. But I'm trying to take, you know, two hours in the middle of the day to go for a rotten.

Stephen Matini: For me, organizations are microcosmos like a smaller society, you know, they abide by their own rules. When you and I talked last time about psychological safety, and sometimes you are stuck with people that for whatever the reason, the chemistry is just not there. So when there's no psychological safety, how do you move around that? What would it be the first step in your opinion?

Michael Neece: Oh, I mean, the first step, if you're in the workplace and you don't feel like you have psychological safety, is to start asking your supervisor and some of your closest colleagues, you know, what, what's going on here? And, and how can we make this better? Is there a way that we can set forth a couple of rules to make things so that it, it's okay for us to talk, it's okay for us to have the opinions. 

Every once in a while you read one of these leadership clips about how a good leader will, you know, tell you, we, we hire really smart people, not so that we can tell them what to do. We hire smart people so they can tell us what to do. If you're in a workplace, you were hired there, there's theoretically some set of skills, some perspective, some, some ability, some knowledge that you bring to that workplace that is valuable.

If you can't bring that skillset to bear, if you can't bring that perspective out in the open, then what good is it doing anybody? And so the business argument is, you hired me to be able to do certain things, and in the psychologically safe space, I feel stilted in like my, you know, my perspectives and things that I would offer are just never gonna come out. And so that's the business argument. 

I think the other argument is it's just a lot more pleasant to work in a workspace where you feel like you can trust others and where you feel like you can say to others the things that you need to say. So I, I think the first perspective is to have those conversations with two or three allies that you really trust. If you feel really good about your supervisor, I think you talked to your supervisor and you say, we can make this better. I need to hear what this other person is saying, even though they're always being talked over in meetings. And you do too. They were hired for a reason. So how, how do we get to hear that person and don't make it about yourself, make it about how, how do we hear each other better?

Stephen Matini: If the team leader, the manager, the leader is not on board, is it still possible to build a psychological safe environment?

Michael Neece: I think you're gonna have limited returns on that investment. I think the nice thing about having a really robust kindness practice is that at the end of every day, you can feel proud of how you carried yourself. At the end of every day, the things that you have done for other people, the ways that you have treated every single person you've interacted with, I think that that spills out. And I think people want to be around you. 

So going back to your question, if you have a team lead supervisor who is not, you know, who, who they, they don't buy it. They, they think you're being naive or something like that, they can actually see your kindness as a threat. They can actually see your appeal to the general group. You know, the fact that people come to you with hard questions and the people, you know, people come to you because they want to confide in you. They can see that as a very threatening thing.

The only thing that you can do with a team leader, other than, you know, eventually you might have to make the hard decision of to just leaving. But the only thing that you can do that's short of that is to have very robust conversations with that team lead and say, so-and-so came to me with this issue, and I think we can solve this together. 

Here's what I thought, and here's what I told them, but how would you have handled that? And then I think you start, you start putting coins in their trust jar. And once, once that trust jar gets full enough, they might really see, oh, you know, Stephen is not trying to, you know usurp. Maybe, you know, Stephen's not trying to outshine me on this team. Stephen is, is an ally Stephen's trying to help me as well, and trying to help the team.

I think it comes back to your own kindness practice and how robust it is. But it also comes back to really good strategy. You know in, in that situation where I was undercutting my boss very early career, and that boss was just not acting appropriately, what I did was I went away. And what I really should have done is I should have gone toward, I should have gone to that boss a lot more often and said, what's your vision? I'm not sure I really understand why we have this policy. Can you help me understand how I can help you more? And I think if I'd had those conversations, I would've had a very different experience in my earlier career.

Stephen Matini: One really awkward predicament that I often discuss with the guests of the podcast is this. Often times people feel fearful of what is it gonna happen to me if I speak up? But they're also aware that if I don't speak up, I may end up like a pressure cooker, you know, I'm gonna boil and rot inside. How can you overcome the fear in your opinion?

Michael Neece: At the end of your life when people are toasting your 80th birthday? What are the things you want them to be saying about you? I think that's the response to that. Because if I make one choice out of fear and then another choice out of fear, before you know it you know, you can think of these jar, you know emotions as jars, right? And that whole pressure cooker idea, like am I, am I putting more things into that pressure cooker? I, I think, I think the response is how do I want to see myself in the world and what's the worst thing that could happen? 

Or, or, you know, if, if they fire me, gosh, maybe that wasn't the right place for me to be in the first place. And maybe that's, maybe that's a good thing getting fired from a workplace because you stood up for principle because you stood up against those fears that could have knocked you down. 

I think at least you, you hold your head high, you feel good about the fact that you lived your beliefs, and when you step into the interviews for other jobs thereafter, you can say what you did to bring harmony to say the things that were hidden to, to be that voice of reason. 

And I, and I think that makes you a more appealing candidate. I mean, as long as you, as long as you can frame it as I tried to be tactful and I tried to be diplomatic in, I delivered the message. But I do like to say the things that otherwise sometimes go unsaid, that's an invaluable person to have on any team.

Stephen Matini: You know, recently I had a conversation, really difficult one with a business partner. So we have been working together overall for I think 12, yeah, 12, 13 years. So lot, a lot of projects. And every single project, there was always this negotiation going on about my fees. Every single time. I would stood my ground, but I would feel very frustrated until roughly three weeks ago. And I said it, listen, I find so saddening that after 12, 13 years clients been satisfied that we are still doing this game. I'm not willing to negotiate any longer this. I want my energy, your energy to be focused on something that makes sense, to have fun together, to build beautiful stuff. I no longer want to have the discussion with you. That's it. My fees are no longer negotiable.

Michael Neece: Sure, sure. Yeah.

Stephen Matini: And ... I mean, when I hang up, I said, oh my God, I might be destroyed ... But it seems to me that this time things, something might have changed because I noticed not just a specific person, but all the other ones associated with this person looking at me slightly differently. Because I did not criticize you. I'm just simply saying, I want to have a more functional relationship. So I love when you say it's a matter of perspective, you know, overall how you want to remember your life to be remembered. For me, in addition to that is, is this really a relationship I want to have? Do I want this relationship to abide by this rules and make me feel suffocated?

Michael Neece: Sure, sure. It's, it's very interesting because right before I got onto the podcast with you I was rereading something and it, it was this idea that you had this very frank interaction, and I think it's really important to be very truthful. And I think you were tapping into something that you suspected was there. 

The thing that I was just reading right before this was about limiting beliefs. It's the idea that everybody comes to the table with things that they don't, they don't necessarily even know about themselves. Perhaps they might know, perhaps they don't. But your business partner could have been raised in a family where money was always discussed and money was always tight, whether it was, whether it wasn't, there could have been this emotional response to, to be careful with money, and then that could spill out onto everybody for the rest of their lives.

And when I think we take the time to dig into our limiting beliefs, into these things that, that control some of our behaviors, that can make us sometimes have a, a large emotional reaction to a situation that most other people wouldn't have that same reaction to, I think it, it gives us a great gift. It helps us understand this business partner of yours is probably incredibly thrifty, probably very, very good at earnings, and probably very good at, at keeping everybody very flush in terms of money. 

The cutting and hard side of this though, is that there are always discussions about it. It's, it's almost like you intuited that there is something else there behind these discussions, but I feel like I need to speak my truth. And you weren't attacking, you weren't mean, you weren't you know, making it a personal thing. 

You were just simply saying, here's, here's what I need and we change this. And so I think it's a brilliant tactic but I think it's also a very insightful into the fact that other people always bring something to the table that is unspoken. There's always an undercurrent, whether you know it or not.

Stephen Matini: My unspoken truth is definitely the example of my dad. My dad was a, a small entrepreneur, and my father repeated countless of times when I was younger. The importance of honesty, honesty, honesty, honesty, honesty. And I want to be honest, and I'm happy to be honest, but sometimes I wonder, should I be more strategic? Maybe there's a little percentage of being hypocritical that I could learn ...

Michael Neece: There's a difference between hypocrisy and being a very good storyteller. You know, as, as someone who just writes incessantly what I've always been challenged with is what do I include and what do I leave out? That's every story ever, right? I mean, what do you know? 

Do I, do I talk about the fact that he had cereal that morning, and did he put the spoon to the cereal and spoon to his mouth? I mean, how, how much detail does this person want? So I think it's more a matter of being strategic and knowing which truths to tell at what times, and knowing, knowing how to bubble up that truth. 

Sometimes you are not the right person to deliver a particular message, sometimes delivering that message could come from a different ally to both you and the person who needs to hear the message.

Somebody who's trustworthy, somebody who knows that you're not trying to manipulate or, you know but, but somebody who can hear your truth and then can maybe deliver it in the right way for that person to hear. So I, so I think, I think there are thousand strategies. I don't think it's at all hypocritical to say that there are certain truths that you, you simply sit on and you don't ever say to hold back certain truths. I think some of them are obvious and don't need to be stated. I think some of them will never really truly be heard by the person you're trying to deliver it to. So why say it? And then I think there are other strategies. I think there are ways of feeding that truth to other people and letting them talk to that individual who, who might need to hear the truth.

Stephen Matini: Kindness, and assertiveness; are they the same thing?

Michael Neece: I've seen people be assertive in unkind ways, so I guess, I guess they're not always the same. I think there can be times when you're very kind and in a very overt way, and it's very affirming and, and out there. So I, I would say that you can be very kind. The, the, the example that comes to mind is you're in a meeting, somebody is continuously being talked over. 

I think that you can be assertive and say, Hey, guys, I, I, I'm so sorry to interrupt the flow. This is, this is such good conversation, I really want to continue it. But I think that Susan over there had some, had some ideas that she really wanted to share with us. And I know she's an expert on this topic, so if you know, Susan, did you, did you wanna share with the group a couple of your idea?

So I think there's definitely some times when you can be very assertive and, and, and forthright. I think there's some other times you can be assertive, and it's not, it's not so kind, you know? If it's, if it's a self-serving sort of thing, or if it's, if it's serving to a, a particular motivation that you have, then maybe, maybe it is, but maybe it doesn't. So but, but yeah. I, I think sometimes kindness, you do have to grab the conversation by the reigns and say, guys, there's this other thing, and I think you really need to hear it.

Stephen Matini: I love when you said kindness is a superpower. What are the adjectives that based on your experience, your studies, you would associate to your notion of kindness as a superpower?

Michael Neece: Well, it's something that is a renewable resource. It's something that again, I mentioned earlier, if, if you just come from the spa, you are happy to tip people, well, you're happy to let people get in front of you in line. And I mean, it's, it's, you have a lot more of that, that buffer built up. 

So think, I think your superpower as an all time pie, when you have been kind to yourself first, some adjectives that go with this caring to yourself before being caring to others. You know, they say if the oxygen masks drop while you're in the airplane, they say, if you're the adult, you should put it on yourself first, and then you help other people. 

That's not unkind. It is, it is a, a real situation where you have to make sure you stay conscious so that you can do more good. I actually, I actually got a mini lecture on this when I went and visited with my team in New York, you know, for the book that I'm writing. And they said, do you remember that thing where you recently got hospitalized because you weren't taking great care of yourself? Maybe this is something to go in the book ...

Stephen Matini: Is kindness, love?

Michael Neece: I think they're distinctly different things. I don't have to love a very thorny, very grizzly kind of person, but I should, I should still show them kindness. However it's possible to do that. For, for one thing, it makes me feel good about the fact that I, I'm living my values for another thing. It helps me collect a lot of data from that thorny person. If they are, you know, being angry at me, are they just having a bad day? If I continue to be kind, will I break through this barrier? Or is this something deeper?

Think kindness comes from a loving place. I think it really does, but I don't think that you necessarily will feel that big emotion that comes with it about every single person in every situation. Like there are horrible acts that you read in the news or that you know, are in history. It's very hard to find a loving feeling for that person. 

It might actually be a little easier to find a, a bit of pity for that person and to feel, to, to feel some moat of if only somebody had been kind to this person earlier in their life, if only somebody had taken better care of this person, if only this person had had their needs met. It doesn't mean that I have to love them, but it certainly means that I, I should be loving in how I approach my thought process about that person, if that. Does that make sense?

Stephen Matini: Yes, it does. Your kindness as an approach, I don't know if you call it approach or method or mindset, it sounds to me very secular, it doesn't seem to belong to any specific philosophy or religious background.

Michael Neece: That's accurate. Yes, that's very accurate. I was raised in a household by two PhD scientists. I think being raised in that environment, I learned very quickly that you, you believe in other people. You believe in hard work. You believe in doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, and you believe in a lot of equity. 

I mean, my mother was the one who was always teaching me about what was in her biochemistry books and trying to, to tell me about the, you know, the wonders of science and how we're exploring the universe through, through this very specific method. So, so yes, I, I, I firmly believe that people can be very kind regardless of what religion or faith they come from, or if they don't come from one I think it's very easy to be kind or unkind, but I, I think, I think you'll find a lot of people who are very kind, who have no faith at all.

Stephen Matini: One thing that you shared with me in the past was you said, we cannot pretend that angry people are not out there. How can you be kind, so make yourself vulnerable, but at the same time, protect yourself?

Michael Neece: First things first. If you are dealing with an angry person and you fear for your own safety, that's a very different situation. And that's, I don't think that's what you're talking about, right? 

If you were in a situation though, where the person is angry at you or you have anger between the two of you, I think eliminating the words I and you from the conversation is really, really very helpful. I used to give planetarium shows, right? I used to be in this big dome where, you know, you turn day tonight and you put the stars, you know, replicas of stars up on the ceiling. And I would point out, oh, Ryan's belt and Andromeda and all of, all of the constellations, and I've done it for years. So many people come past at the end and say, oh, I was so great.

It was so lovely, and I loved your storytelling. And so, so, so at one point I had a person who pulled me to one side as they were all walking out and said, this is horrible. This was terrible. What you, you have all of this great technology and what you chose to do with it was almost criminal. It was so bad. 

Fortunately, I had just read an article a couple of weeks earlier about what to do when confronted with somebody who has a, has an opinion that you do not care about, and an opinion that is very overtly opposite of your opinion. I looked the gentleman in the eye and I said, I just really want to thank you for being so honest, and I want to thank you for sharing your perspective. I didn't say his perspective was right. I didn't tell him that.

I thought suddenly I was a terrible presenter after so many years in, you know, in the planetarium industry. And he looked at me and he said, oh, and now you're a smart Tim. And so I just looked at him and he said, no, sir, I, I, I don't believe that that was what I was attempting to do. I just wanted to thank you for being vulnerable and for telling me your honest opinion. He had no idea what to do with that. 

He had no idea what to do with that. So he stormed out, and I never saw him again with, by not fighting fire with fire. He didn't know, like there was nothing for him to push against it. There was nothing there. And for me, not getting defensive and getting very upset, you know, it wasn't about me. His anger came from something else.

I have no idea what that anger was about, but so why, why treat it as if it's something I needed to defend myself against? So, so angry people will come at you and you can do some jiujitsu on them. You can do some really cool judo move on them, right? They come at you, give them nothing to push up very, very quickly. They realize that they are flailing about, they're losing energy, and they're not making any headway. They're not satisfying that that rise that they get inside of themselves when they, they challenge someone. And so they d they don't know what to do with that. 

And so they either will have to storm off, or if this is an ongoing relationship, they'll eventually have to come back to you and say, you know, I'm really sorry. I got so angry earlier and I'm still not sure that we've come to a conclusion on this, but thank you for not yelling back. That's a powerful message that you're sending just right there, is that you are not fighting cruelty with more cruelty. You are trying to be kind even in that moment. I've used this in several different instances in my life, and it is amazing how it is like a Jedi mind trick. And I'm not trying to fool anybody. I'm not trying to, to harm them in any way. I'm simply trying to take their energy and directly ground it.

Stephen Matini: Is this something that you also learn from martial arts?

Michael Neece: Yeah. As you know I started martial arts when I was 17. I did TaeKwonDo for years and years and years and years. I've done a little bit of kung fu as well. I think there's something to that. Interacting with other people in society is a contact sport. It really is, right? . And I think by having done some martial arts, I've learned that I don't really have to be fearful of anything. 

I mean, the worst is that somebody can hurt me a little, but if I see it coming and I understand strategy and I know maybe why things are happening the way that they're happening, then I have a shot, then I have a chance at using some strategy in it. So yeah, definitely, definitely. I'd like to infuse a lot of my discussions with kung fu or TaeKwonDo any chance I get.

Stephen Matini: I love that. And I love when you said remove the you and I from the conversation.

Michael Neece: Yeah. And, and I think that's actually a negotiation tactic that they use in the F B I is. If you're talking to somebody who's on the opposite side of a, a negotiation in the fbi, I clearly, there's not a lot of happy love that's going on in that conversation. But if you subtract out the you and the eye and you talk about our goals and how do we do this together, you're, you're showing the other person that I understand there's a problem. I get that there's an issue. Let's talk about the ways that we can get to a good resolution for everyone. And that's, that's what everybody wants. At the end of the day,

Stephen Matini: When I have some conflict with my partner, the first thing that really comes to mind as we discuss is, you know what, this is not about you and I, and I'm not here to get finger pointed, and I'm not here in the business of, you know, finger pointing. You, I'm talking about, I don't know how to resolve this issue. I really don't know, and I need your help. But if you're trying to make me feel crap, I do that all the time with myself, so I don't need another person who does that. And I have to say that it works. It works because you really, you remove the, the you I and you that talk about. This is our relationship, you know, I'm so sorry it's not working the way that we want. What can we do? It makes it more collaborative.

Michael Neece: And that's beautiful, Stephen. I mean, that's absolutely beautiful because that's, that's at the heart of an awful lot of being kind to yourself and kind to the other person is understanding that you're going to have emotions that will come into the circumstance by paying attention to what is our goal? What are the goals? What are our values? What are our beliefs? Then the emotions can inform those. 

Unfortunately, we, we, as human beings, we are wired to make emotional decisions and then use logic to back it up. We are, we're wired that way. That's just how we are, you know, what do you want to eat is very much rooted in what, what do I desire? So I, I love the fact that you, you subtract out the, you and the me and you talk about what are our goals, you know, this is such a lovely thing. 

We want this thing to be perpetuated. I want it to be perpetuated. I care very deeply about this relationship. How do we give it the care and feeding that it needs? It's like the boss who doesn't sit across the table from you as, as they have your, you know, end of year review, or as they have a hard discussion, they come and they sit next to you and they say, Stephen, how's it going? Are you okay? I care about you. I care about you deeply. And they, and they sit next to you, not across.

Stephen Matini: If you're going through a difficult moment for whatever the reason, you know, your energy is not there, your perspective is not there, and it's harder to be kind to tap into the superpower. Is there anything you do in order to overcome that bump?

Michael Neece: Oh, that's a great, that's the million dollar question. I, I wanna just bring in something that seems like a tangent, but I promise it isn't. Judges hand out nicer, kinder sentencing, right? As they start their workday, and as they get closer and closer to lunch, they are harsher and harsher sentences, and then they go and they have lunch, and you find out right after lunch, they give out okay, sentences, and it gets harsher and harsher, and it's the worst that it can possibly be at the end of the day. 

There have been studies that have been done on this. It's a great illustration of the fact that when you wake up, you are feeling your best self. You are the most recharged that you can get. And so if you get into a moment where you're not feeling particularly kind, you're, you've been having a hard day, think about what time of day is it?

I mean, that's, that's a real question for yourself. Another real question is, what are the things that I'm doing for me right now that are loving? What are the things that I'm doing that are kind, have I had a little sustenance lately and was it a, was it a, an apple or was it a donut? How much sleep did I get last night? Y

ou know, so, so I, I, you know, whenever I get into a situation where I'm not feeling particularly kind and I'm in that afternoon traffic and you know, the people are cutting me off, and I'm trying to remember that, you know, me arriving at my home five car lengths, you know, later than otherwise, is not that big a deal. It should be okay. Let them in. Let them in. I just try to remember the self kindness. That's a big, big piece of all of this.

Again, take the oxygen mask, put it over your face first, and then help others do that. That's one big thing. Now, if, if you're in a situation where you have to have a discussion, you have to have a meeting, it is, you know, five 30 and you were hoping to be gone by four. What I try to do is I try to remind myself of the good things that have happened that day so far. I try to remember the good actions that I have taken so far. 

I try to slow down my own breathing because I remember that you can actually affect your own psychology by how you are using your body at the moment. And so, if I'm trying to be calm and quiet and take those big breaths that, believe it or not, that can help just an awful lot. If, if that's not helping, then you try to pump out 15 really hard fast pushups, you know, you do something that's gonna get your system going and then give yourself 10 minutes to calm back down.

Stephen Matini: Michael, what would you like our listeners to take away? We touch so many different points, but is there something that is dear to you that you would like them to focus on?

Michael Neece: Yes. The golden rule says, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And that is a really high bar that is like sainthood. That's a lot to ask for. The silver rule is a lot easier. It's do not do unto others as you would not have done unto them, which is basically saying, don't go around punching people. 

Don't go around taking joy and hurting each other, like, just don't harm you. I think that in a kindness practice, you can do something that's sort of in between those two. Anytime you think of it, send a nice text to someone or a nice email, or stop by their desk and say, you know, that project that you know, we've been working on for so long, it's so rare that I say thank you. And it just really wanted to take a minute to say thank you, because without you, this project wouldn't be going anywhere.

So do little things that take you a minute at most, that make you feel better about who you are and help other people around you. They feel those ripples of kindness. Every, every little pebble that you throw in into that lake, it, it's a helpful one. It's something that can make somebody else's day that much brighter and can make them throw a few rocks into the, into the lake as well. If there's any one thing that I would want to say to your, to your listeners, it is, don't expect sainthood. 

Just expect little bits and pieces as you can throw them in. And I think that those cumulative bits of kindness add up. The only other thing, I think we've already talked about it a lot, but I I, I do wanna give another plug for it. Get a lot of sleep, stay hydrated exercise, have good nutrition. Do the things that are caring to you as a human being so that you feel more kind, more loving, more generous in your spirit. So the self-care is as critical in this discussion. As, as anything else,

Stephen Matini: Michael, your work could not be more timely. We desperately need Michael and kindness. Thank you so much for all that you are researching, for your efforts in your book and for spending time with me. This is really lovely.

Michael Neece: Well, Stephen, I I'm glad that you have this platform and that you're using it the way that you do. You know, pity Party of Over is something that I'm just, I'm really glad that you invited me onto and and I'm glad that we've had this conversation. And, and another one besides I hope we continue to talk.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit breakfastwithstephen.substack.com

Despite our differences, what brings all of us together, is our shared desire to be heard, supported, and loved. 

The guest of this episode of the podcast Pity Party Over is Stuart Ross Carlson, a violinist, violist, and music composer with autism who displayed his enormous talent from a young age. 

Stuart shares his unique experience with synesthesia, a condition where he sees colors when he hears music, and his mission to support neurodiversity and inclusion in education, the arts, and the world.

Listen to this episode of Pity Party Over to learn how to inspire others and create a more inclusive world where everyone feels valued.

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You can access music from Stuart Ross Carlson on all major streaming services, including Spotify, Apple Music, iTunes, YouTube Music, and many others. You can learn about Stuart Ross Carlson on Stuart’s website, Facebook and Instagram:

www.stuartcarlson.com

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#stuartrosscarlson #stuartcarlson #violinist #violist #violin #viola #music #purpose #mission #annarborsymphonyorchestra #mottchildrenhospital #autism #neurodiversity #yoyoma #billieeilish# katyperri #arianagrande #cristinaaguilera #beethoven #mozart #tchaikovsky #podcast #pitypartyover #stephenmatini #alygn

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit breakfastwithstephen.substack.com

Are you tired of feeling burdened by responsibilities that aren’t yours? 

The guest on the podcast Pity Party Over is Molly McGuigan, a Positive Change Practitioner and Appreciative Inquiry Expert.

Molly discusses the project she co-founded called “Ditch the Ditty,” which aims to help women overcome unnecessary responsibilities and obligations. 

Ditch the Ditty explores ways to raise awareness of when women can say yes or no to things and the importance of valuing oneself.  

Join us on Pity Party Over and discover how to release yourself from the weight of responsibilities that don't serve you.

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TRANSCRIPT

Stephen Matini: When did you find out about human development that was gonna be your focus of interest?

Molly McGuigan: I, you know, I don't know that there was a moment. I feel like it's been a journey and that journey began really when I graduated from college. I went to school in Cleveland as well. I went to John Carroll University, and then after college, I, I worked for a company that did experiential training and development, and I sort of fell into that. 

I was working at a summer camp for kids with diabetes and I got interested in doing work on the Ropes Challenge course. So sort of the out, you know, the out Outward Bound type work that where you have kids that are going up and, you know, learning about climbing and, you know, high, high-end trees and, and teaching them about leadership, about overcoming challenges and things like that. And so I got really interested in that, probably more so from even the outdoor education and working, you know, working with kids aspect of it.

Molly McGuigan: I didn't really think a whole lot about how that impacted human development or organization development at that time. A company that I started working for right after that, that put the, the challenge courses in and did all the training for the challenge courses for the camp, I started working for them right outta college and wow, it just opened my eyes to this whole world of human development organization development teams. 

And I quickly got very interested in, in just how all of that worked, gave me the chance to to start to travel. And we started working in bigger organizations like Ernst & Young and, and things like that. And that took us all over the place. And so it was really interesting to meet people from not all, all over the country, but all over the world. And so I became, you know, became intrigued with that and that's where the journey began, and it continued for, for decades after that.

Stephen Matini: And then the whole positive psychology approach, how that one came about in your life?

Molly McGuigan: So I was working for that company Executive Edge, and we, because we were based in Cleveland, we, we had a connection to Case Western Reserve University, and we decided to take a program on appreciative inquiry. 

And so it really just, we, we knew actually about appreciative inquiry and about the work of David Cooperrider because we had been doing work with his sister Don Dole in the experiential world. She was actually one of the facilitators for some of the work that we were doing with Executive Edge and decided to, to take a, take a workshop. So three of us went from that organization and took a foundation's workshop with David Cooperrider. And that's where I first learned about appreciative inquiry. 

And again, just sort of another part, another milestone in the trajectory of my work was learning about how organizations can use this powerful methodology to, to plan to, to embrace change, to engage people. And it was just such a, an interesting and, and different way of approaching that work. And so I, we quickly started to implement that and use that within the, the work that we were doing with clients.

Stephen Matini: When I work with clients, I noticed that their traditional mindset is very much problem solving. Assess the situation, come up with the strategy, and then different actions, and appreciative inquiry focuses on strength. So it's a really different approach. When you deal with the client that never dealt with appreciative inquiry before, is there a specific way you would like to introduce it?

Molly McGuigan: I usually talk about a couple of things. I talk about, first of all how I think based on the premise that in every organization something is working, it's important to not throw the baby out with the bath water, so to speak. You know, we talk about that concept of really allowing some of what has worked well to come along, even as you're planning and thinking about the future. 

It's very different from organ how organizations orient, especially when they're thinking about change or coming up with solutions to big challenges. You know, they don't necessarily think about it that way. We're, we're really wired to think more deficit minded. And so I, you know, quickly sort of orient them and help them understand how different that is. I think the other thing is that for me, all about bringing the right people to the table.

And again, another way that organizations often embrace change or, you know, some sort of a complex challenge is that they get a group of experts together or a group of leaders, and they're quickly moving in the direction of, of something that is really sort of facilitated by that smaller group of, of people. 

But you leave so much out, you leave a lot of experience, a lot of knowledge, a lot of expertise out of the conversation, and you also lose the opportunity to bring people along with you to into that moment, into that moment of change, into that next phase of work, whatever that is. 

Even if you feel like you have all the answers, which you probably don't , it's so important to allow people to sort of step into that space, to, you know, to really be engaged with that and feel like they are part of, of whatever it is that's gonna come next.

Stephen Matini: Why do you think that so often leadership seems to be not fully aware of the strengths and the people and the resources that already has, and so feels compelled to go outside to the expert, to the consultant that magically he's going to provide you with the perfect formula.

Molly McGuigan: I always, I love it when, when organizations don't feel that way and when they're like, we know we, we have all the answers, , and the answers lie with from within, but it doesn't often happen. You know, most, a lot of times they are sort of looking for that. I think, I think it's cuz they're looking for that sort of quick fix. 

They think that there's this magic bullet out there, right, that's gonna change and be new and different. And the reality is there's really not that much that's new and truly innovative in the world, especially in the world of organization development and leadership development and things like that. There's really nothing that's really, you know, different. It's more of a, a reframe or a repackaging of things that we've known all along. But they are looking for something that brings some, some new thinking in, into the equation.

And they don't necessarily, it's not that they don't value their people or that they don't think that they have strengths. I think that they assume that they don't have something new because they are, you know, they're in the system. They're sort of married into that whole to how things are being done and they don't have that new provocative thing to, to think about. 

I mean, I I love to think about the fact that, you know, sort of take this combination of people. It's not that one idea, it's the idea that's connected to another idea that's connected to another idea that does spark something new and innovative and something that they haven't really thought about before.

Stephen Matini: Why would you say that has been one of the biggest lessons that you learned from change?

Molly McGuigan: I think the, the biggest thing, and I continue to remind myself of this, is that, you know, the organizations are, as I think David Cooperrider said early on, you know, they're systems of human relatedness. It's all about relationship. The sooner we've sort of realized that it's really about the humans, it's about the human side of, of how people are interacting with each other, how people are relating to people. 

And you know, every, every organization sort of has its own unique way of approaching that in the way of culture and how culture comes about. And and maybe in the way that they actually work together and things like that. But really at the end of the day, understanding what is important to people and what drives them and what makes them connected to each other. 

And, you know, so much of the work that I do ends up being about that. It does end up being about, you know, sort of a, maybe a process around something, you know, that's new or different and bringing people together and sort of dec and, and deciphering around some of the politics and things like that. But at the end of the day, it's really about sort of lifting up and figuring out what is it that's most important to people and what are they gonna be energized by and excited about.

Stephen Matini: When you deal with the culture, an organizational culture that is very extremely task oriented and somehow the human component doesn't have that much space, how would you approach that?

Molly McGuigan: But it always sort of comes up in projects, you know, what do we do with the, with the naysayers? What do we do with the people that are, you know, are, are not there, are not ready to sort of share. And I, you know, kind of tie that together with what your example was of, you know, well we don't wanna hear from them, you know, and those, those folks probably do have, have something to say, but that, but we don't, you know, we don't need to necessarily bring that into the equation. 

But I think that people tend to sort of hold on to what has been done in the past, feel very wedded to that, you know, very tied into that. And sometimes it, it is hard to, to sort of give people the space if you're especially talking about sort of a new process or new initiative, it's sometimes hard to give people the space to air things out or to work out the conflict that they have between point A and point B.

But there's so much value in just giving people that space to do that. And not in a negative way. You know, I always say let's frame a conversation in a way that allows people to feel like they can bring those things along without making it feel like it's this really negative thing, what they've been, just because we're doing something different doesn't mean what they've been doing is wrong . And that's, I think people's biggest fear in change is that they're being, you know, sort of asked to do something differently and maybe the way that they've been doing it is not the right way.

Stephen Matini: Based on your experience, what would you say that is an adequate amount of time for an intervention to start seeing some changes?

Molly McGuigan: Boy, it really comes down to, in my mind, it comes down to the messaging and the leadership and how quickly they are seeing that something is, is different or that there's, that there's something that they wanna be part of. 

And when there's a lot of skepticism and when leadership is not completely on board with doing something or really sort of steering that ship in a different way, it takes longer. 

In some cases it can take years. I mean, we know, you know, through our work that culture change, like true culture change can take three to five years, you know, in terms of really sort of rolling something out that looks and feels different to people and that there's consistency, consistency in actual work and consistency in communication around that. 

But I found that, you know, when leaders are really truly on board with, with something and there's, you know, there's momentum around something, a new, a new way of thinking, a new way of doing things. And there's that consistency in message and there's that true authenticity that comes through that, you know, it can be just a few months of, you know, of starting to, to do that work where you start to see some of those small shifts.

And that's, I think the key too is that it doesn't necessarily need to be this big audacious change or big audacious thing that happens sometimes. It's, it's the small tiny wins that are the most important and the things that we notice in sort of day-to-day work that might be different.

Stephen Matini: But, you know, you really have to have clear expectations. Like they want to have everything now, you know, it has to work immediately. Mm-Hmm. and I say all the time, it takes time, it takes patience and it takes repetition. So...

Molly McGuigan: It does, yeah. It is hard. I, you know, I found myself changing my work a bit over the last four or five years or so from kind of getting away from doing just one or two days with a group and then leaving and not coming back. 

You know, there's cuz there's, there were, I was always asked to do things like, you know, some sort of a team development or a retreat of some sort or, you know, bringing people together to plan for the next year or something, which I still do a fair amount of, but it's when I have a relationship with an organization and there is that opportunity for more long, long-term planning because until you really sort of get in and, and have a chance to really, you know, have some time with an organization you just don't see, I was feeling left out of the potential to see some of that change occur. 

And so it was impacting my own connection to the work and I really wanted to see that opportunity to see something happen, to see something come about cuz it, it inspired me, it engaged me, you know, into the work itself. So so I've been really trying to be intentional making that change, that shift.

Stephen Matini: But I have to say that now because of digital, remote connection mm-hmm. and Covid has been a huge boost in the way I'm able to have more touch points, you know, with people. So programs tend to be longer, the budget is not invested just, you know, in a couple of days, super intense and then yeah, a matter of a week everyone forgets all about it. And I love digital for that because realistically what is the likelihood of me going back in person and to see you. Yeah. Especially if, if you're work working with people, they're all over the place, but digital, you know, for that is phenomenal.

Molly McGuigan: Yeah. It is one of the things that came out of the pandemic that was a, a, a bright spot, you know, that our work has shifted and has opened up the world in a way cuz I've worked more internationally with groups, you know, as a result of being able to, as just as you said, do things, you know, where we don't have to travel, we don't have to be in in person. 

At the same time there is something that is, you know, back to sort of the, the fact that everything is so relational there, it's, it, you know, it can be a little bit of a challenge to build some of those relationships over Zoom or over teams or, you know, one of these platforms that we all use now regularly. So there's still something to be said for coming together at times to build those relationships because they're so integral to what, to the work we do and the work that they do together. But then it is so nice to have sort of that ability to have a hybrid where you can build that relationship and then connect, you know, over time and continue to build that relationship, you know, just in, in different ways.

Stephen Matini: And how did you come up with the idea of Ditch the Ditty?

Molly McGuigan: ? Yeah. Ditch the Diddy. Another, a project that is becoming more than just a project for me. A few years ago I was part of another project, a big project that I worked on for several years. I was hired to, to sort of lead up a big gathering of folks talking about positive education around the globe. 

I'd spent a long time working on that project a couple years, and I was working with a couple of individuals in that project and we were sort of backstage, you know, kind of getting ready to get folks up on this stage. It was, you know, a big conference. We had like 800 people from almost 60 different countries represented. So it was a really big global event. 

And so we're backstage sort of getting folks ready to come up and, and speak. And I had someone actually physically hand me this sort of bag, this what we came to refer to as a “ditty bag” a bag of his, his things, his personal things, and said, here, you know, hold this, it, it has my, my, my whole life in it, you know, so hold this and, and take care of this while I go up and, and give this this keynote. 

And so I was one of two women that were backstage and, you know, I was sort of surrounded by a lot of other men just making sort of note of that. And I realized in that moment that, you know, I took that bag and I held it out of the sense of obligation, responsibility. And and I also noticed that, you know, that that gentleman happened to, to pass it along to one of the two women that were behind this, you know, backstage, even though I was literally like running the whole show.

So so it was a, a metaphor for me and a moment of time of like real clarity where I realized, wow, you know, how many other times am I being hand in things, you know, metaphorically or real, that I really don't wanna be holding , that I have a choice to not hold, but I'm still somehow holding because I have this sort of sense of responsibility towards others, or don't want make them feel bad or, you know, I, I, I have some, some reason behind, behind that. 

And so we started to get really curious about that. And so a couple of my colleagues and I who were present at that event were part of that and have started to, started to sort of carve out this space of when are women more apt to, you know, to pick up these things? You know, how, how do they know whether or not it's something that they can say yes to or say no to? You know, sometimes it's just building an awareness around is this something that I can really let go of? Is this something that I don't have to take on? 

And also, probably most importantly, why we are in this space. You know, the socialized tendencies that we have that come from very early communication that we receive about the role that women play and how we need to show up in the world. 

And in that process, we've found that there are women, I mean, that women resonate with this topic, this idea of ditching the Diddy. So Ditch the Diddy came out of, you know, let's ditch those things that are un unnecessary, that are, are, that we are holding, that are that are wearing us down. 

Cuz I think that the biggest message that we've received through all of the interviews that we've done, the workshops that now we've done in this process, is that that these things tend to, you know, when they, when they pile up, they tend to wear us down and take away from the things that we really wanna be doing. And so it's been a, a really fun journey to get, to get to know this space a bit more and dig into it and understand what the, what the possibilities are.

Stephen Matini: So I'm not a woman, but what you say resonates a lot. As you were talking, this word appeared in my head, which is self-worth. Mm-Hmm. , and maybe I'm going a completely wrong direction, but all those times in my life that I truly never felt that was good enough. Yeah. There's a thought that I have no idea where it comes from. I mean, I may have some sort of idea, but there's been a, a good partner, you know, my whole life and very often has put me in a position of holding a lot of crap.

Molly McGuigan: Yeah.

Stephen Matini: Is this wonderful metaphor connected to self-worth?

Molly McGuigan: Absolutely. Yeah. I think so. And I think that that's where, you know, you say, I, I, I, you know, I know that men, all the men that I've talked to have also said, well, I think diddies, I do it all the time. I pick up these things that I don't wanna be holding. But there again, there's just a difference in terms of how women approach it from the perspective of, of how they've been told to value themselves. And so in this work through Ditch the Diddy, we talk about, you know, things like the Good Girl, you know, like it, you know, the idea that you have to sort of, that you're gonna get your, your, your, your worth comes from people thinking that you're doing things right, that you're doing things good, that you're stepping up to sort of makes, you know, to sort of save the day in a sense, you know, that you've put on your cape and you're, you're coming in to sort of, you know, make things better in a way, even if it means that it's sort of taking away from, you know, some, your, your own sense of being or your own sense of wellness.

And a lot of that is wrapped up in to the idea of self-worth, worth, because it's this idea that I have to do this in order to feel worthy of somebody's approval or, or maybe even of my own approval. 

This is the way that I value myself. And and, you know, there's, there's nothing wrong with sort of this sense of feeling, of feeling value or self-worth out of doing, doing good things for people or, you know, or, or stepping into that space of, of kind of of, you know, doing the right thing or doing, doing something that really helps people. Being a, a people pleaser in a sense. 

There's nothing wrong with that e until it impacts your, your own wellbeing, you know, until it sort of really does start to pile up in a way where you're doing these things and not really understanding the impact and sometimes the negative impact that it's having on you. And, and also not realizing that, you know, by doing those things, by being that people pleaser or whatever it is that you are potentially saying, you know, not giving, leaving yourself enough space to say yes to the things that you really want to be doing, and leaving that space for those, those moments of, of, you know, of things that you really want, are invested in and that you value and that you want to be doing.

Stephen Matini: How could people overcome the fear that comes with all this? Which is, if I say no, how am I going to be perceived? I will not be a “good girl” anymore. I understand I need to make intentional choices, and intentionality is such a huge word, you know, in, in your work. How would you approach someone that feels so terrified by the consequences?

Molly McGuigan: Yeah. Because the reality is that the consequences to women of saying no are significantly different you know, than than men saying no. Especially within organizations, within, within organizations, within families, you know, which are the original organization, , you know, I mean, with any of these sort of human systems that we live within, there's a different implication for women to say no than for men. So what I would say is, and what we've really spent a lot of time again on with our work thinking about and, and writing about, first of all to sort of think about it as, you know, are there places that you can say no, where you can try it on , where you can say, you know, I, I have a, a dear friend who says who talks about saying yes in small ways, which I just love, you know, just say yes in small ways.

But, but I also think about this idea of saying no, say no in small ways. You know, try it on, you know, say no to bringing, you know, cookies to your child's classroom party or something, you know, that's a little, maybe a little less significant if it, if you get some pushback versus saying no to the big project that you know, is not something that you necessarily have to do at work, but something that, you know, could elevate you to the next thing, or that there's a lot of different implications for it. 

So really think about those things that could, could, you could try it out and be brave, but you, but you can see how it feels. And then the other thing that we talk a lot about in our work with Ditch the Diddy is what we call scaling the No. And so there's lots of different ways to deliver a no.

And so much of it again, goes back to this idea that everything is about relationships. And so first to identify what is the relationship with the person that you are saying no to? Is it someone who, you know, what we call a high volume Diddy distributor , and somebody who gives you lots and lots of ditties, and you're finally sort of like, no, I'm, I'm not gonna do that. 

You know, and that, and that there's not as much of a a concern about that person takes that no in, or is it somebody who you really feel a great amount of respect for and, but you're really getting clarity about what you want and where you wanna spend your time and you're carving things out a bit more. And so in that case it might be, you know, no, but how might we find somewhere else for this Ditty to go? Maybe there's someone else who is actually really excited and inspired by this opportunity and doesn't see it as a ditty at all. They see it as a delight, . So are there other places where the city might go? And can you play a role in saying no, but finding another solution for that? So there's sort of a continuum, a scale of where that no fits and how you might sort of play with different ways of delivering that. No, based on the relationship that you have with the person that you're saying no to.

Stephen Matini: Last night when you and I talked, you also mentioned the importance of pausing, slowing down, essentially. How did you get to the point of acknowledging that slowing down is something so important?

Molly McGuigan: This work came, began sort of before the pandemic? I think the pandemic was just this really sort of profound pause for all of us , where we were able to sort of take a step back and think about things. But you know, it brought way to that fact that, that it is, you know, I, I think that came out of a lot of those early conversations that we had with women about how they were able to reflect sort of, you know, a about something that happened in the past. And they were, you know, they were faced with this situation in the moment, and then they were able to sort of reflect back and think of, okay, how might I have done this differently? Or what would I have said, you know, or how, what did I really wanna do in that sit, you know, situation?

It was even asked of, of me sort of, what would you have done if you had had more time to pause in that first, you know, Diddy moment of being handed that bag, you know, what, what might you have done differently? And there was so much sort of, even in my response to that, there was so much sort of wrapped up in, well, I don't know, I guess maybe I would've said, where might, where might we find a place for this bag? Where else? Who else can carry this bag? And, and then I thought about that relationship with that person, and did I care about whether or not they were upset with, by the fact that I didn't wanna hold that bag. And there were so many things that kind of went into it, and I realized, I think we realized in that moment too that if you have an opportunity to sort of pause and think about these things as you're going along and have a better sense of self, a better sense of what you value, what you want, who you wanna do work with, you know who you wanna be with, you know, in terms of just relationships and things like that, and you take, take that time to pause and, and reflect on those things ongoing, then you're not faced with this moment of sort of, oh my gosh, I don't know what I want.

I don't know what to do, . But we have to take that time to do that because there's so much baked into it. There's so many things that are happening that sort of, you know, that layer in when there's decisions to be made when there's an ask in front of us. And so taking that time really, you know, more regularly to pause and really reflect and think about what are the things, you know, am I, am I, where's my energy going and how much, how much energy is going towards things that I really want to be working on, versus things that I wish that I could just pass off and that I wish that I could release so that po Yeah, the pause is so important. 

Even if it, if it is, you know, sometimes we talk a little bit too about just even not being afraid to not answer that email right away, or not being afraid to spend 24 hours to really think about an idea or think about an ask of some sort and maybe have a chance to even talk with some friends or talk with some colleagues about what, you know, what they think about it.

Kind of vetted a little bit and, you know, spending a little time to, to take that pause and not feel like you have to give that answer right away. Cuz again, you know, because they might think, oh, well they don't, she doesn't care, or she doesn't know, or she doesn't want to, or, you know, all the, the negative things that sort of run through our head. It's, it's it's not, it's not the end of the world if you take that time, that moment, that pause to really think about it and to give it that space.

Stephen Matini: The way that I learned over time to pace myself has gone through a lot of trials and error. And now the way that I pace myself, I know there are certain things that work for me really well. To give an example, I start working in the morning and then usually I like to take a couple of hours in the middle of the day for myself, which could be going to the gym workout, doing something outside, because oftentimes I work from home just for my mind to relax. How do you pace yourself?

Molly McGuigan: Well, I, I think one of the things that sort of re forces me to have a bit of a rhythm is that I have a 10 year old son . And so I, and I do try to orient my time am around being with him, you know, so he comes off the school bus at three o'clock and, you know, I, I value greatly the chance, and I have a lot of flexibility, which I really value. It's one of the things that I value about being able to work independently and, and carve out the space to be able to do that. I know a lot of people don't have the chance to do that, but I, you know, I use that as, as sort of a opportunity to, to check in with him and to try to get my work done, you know, by a certain time so that I can really kind of focus in on, on that part of my day and, and the time that I get to spend with him.

Molly McGuigan: So that, that helps a lot. , you know, the, the ability and I, you know, I think that probably people can find us even within working with organizations, but for me, I have to stop and like take, take a pause and break from whatever I'm working on, because often my best thinking comes when I'm not sitting in front of it when I'm doing something else. For me, I, you know, it's, it's, it's often doing something physical. I'm doing something, you know, I'm taking a walk or I'm working in my garden or something. Something that kind of taps into a different way of, of, of thinking through a, a, a, a challenge or a new piece of work or something like that. It helps me to really think about it differently

Stephen Matini: When you run into a miserable moment, is anything you do to get out of that fun?

Molly McGuigan: Yeah, I definitely get there. , we all do, right? We all get into that space of, you know, just feeling like there's something that is not ins surpass. Usually for me it comes because I'm tired, and I just can't, you know, get, get my thought process around it. The way that I usually overcome that is, I think, again, it goes back to my number one core value, which is relationships. I will always sort of err on the side of finding a person in my network. You know, one of my, one I've got, I've got people that I'm just so grateful to have in my life who I can talk to about work, I can talk to about, you know, challenges with my personal life, whatever, just, you know, those people that are sort of vona friend kind of people that I can just, you know, talk about something with a challenge and, you know, something that I'm having a hard time thinking about a new client situation, a difficult client situation, or again, even something personally.

And so my first go-to is always to sort of think about and I, I'm an extrovert, so that's how I orient too. I process out loud with people . And so it's really important to know that about yourself because I'm married to an in an introvert and he in no way does what I just described . That's not how he orients to the world. He, you know, holds up in his space and he thinks about it and he reflects and he's quiet. He doesn't even talk to me about it. 

So it's, I think it's really important to sort of know who, who you are and how you orient because just that whole idea right there of the difference between an introvert and an expert is so important. So yeah, I, I rely on those relationships. I rely a lot on my gut and my intuition.

I was just talking to a friend the other day about a challenging situation at work that she was having, and, and I said, don't underestimate sort of really your, the, the physical feeling that comes about when you are asked to do certain things or, you know, when you're faced with certain things, you know, is it something that you're really excited about and that you feel that excitement and you sort of can't wait to, you know, respond and type that email or whatever it is. 

Or is it something that literally lives, that leaves a pit in your stomach, you know? And it's just so important to identify that and to really take a moment to, to understand like how, how you are orienting to that again. You know? And I think the last thing is just, I, I, you know, to, to be a little brave , you know, to sort of, maybe it's, you know, usually those challenges, those things that we are, are those difficult situations that we're trying to overcome are things that we're a little afraid of.

And it might be because of that, back to that whole sense of self-worth or messages that we're giving ourselves about, I don't know if I can really do this. I don't know if I have this expertise. Most of the time you do, you know, believe in yourself. I mean, believe that there's something that you have to offer if it's e either if you're working within an organization or you're, you know, working outside of an organization like, like you and I do, is there's something, there's some perspective that you have to bring that is probably very much needed in that moment. And so be be brave for putting that out there. And I often have to kind of talk, you know, remind myself of that, of those opportunities to really put, put it out there and allow others to benefit from, you know, just a difference in a, a different lens of which to to view that difficult situation.

Stephen Matini: Do you think that bravery can be learned?

Molly McGuigan: Yeah, I do. Absolutely. I think that it's inside of all of us. There's some element of it, and I think we but there's, I think there's, there's, I, I don't know. I mean, I, I definitely think that it's something that is innate and something that we shy away from be, again, because of just kind of more socialized reasons of of, of whether or not it's accepted or not to fail, right? I mean, we're, the bravery is all about sort of a, a a version to failure and how much we've been accepted in moments where we've tried something and it hasn't gone well, and people have still said, it's okay, you tried, it's fine. So that I think is inside of us and a lot of, but I, I do think that we can develop into a space where we try that again.

You know, we've maybe gone through different, you know, parts of our life through schooling, through family structures that we've oriented around that maybe bring us away further away from that sense of bravery towards something. But I think that we can develop that in, in, in humans and people to be able to get more comfortable with that. And I definitely think organizations and leaders can develop that too. 

They can give people the chance to, you know, to be okay with, with that sense of bravery around something. Yeah, I think that a lot of our systems don't allow for it. I, you know, I've been in this more entrepreneurial phase of my life, for, you know, for now almost 15 years. Cause I've been doing this work on my own now for almost that long. There is a lot of, a lot of bravery and and a lot of courage in, in that process.

And I'm, you know, I guess I think about where that came from and it really did mostly come from people who believed in me and said, why don't you try this? You can do this. You know, it was, it was not so, I don't know that it was as much, it was about me taking those messages in, you know, I had, I, I was brave enough, I guess, to listen to that and say, okay, yeah, I'll try that. 

But it came from somebody, you know, and it, and I can think of different phases in my life, you know, people stepping up and saying, you could do this. Try, try this and, and see what happens. What do you have to lose? You know, it's, everything's temporary, you know, let's try it out and see, see what happens. And you can always change. You can always shift . And I think those were powerful messages for me throughout my life, even from a, a pretty, pretty early age. You know, just giving, giving things a chance. I

Stephen Matini: Don't have many regrets in my life, but the only regret that I have, and there's one specific thing that I regret, is the fact that in that situation, I did not try and I did not try for a bunch of reasons, and I decided to say no, and my life went in a different direction. But I, and, and I'm, I'm referring to a professional choice, you know, that I, yeah, that I, that years ago. But if I'm been honest, I've been thinking about it very often, if not every single day. What if, yeah, what if? And then what if is horrible, you know? Mm-Hmm. and I, and I think a situation in which I busted my and nothing happened, but honest to God, I, I walked away thinking, listen, I've done everything . I don't know what else I could have done. You know, let's hope that life will provide some answers instead. I think when you don't try, it stays with you, you know, and it's not, it's not good.

Well, I think the, the appreciative inquiry background in me would in, would invite you to reframe that into a what now? what's next? You know, because I think cuz every, because I actually really do believe that everything that we do in life somehow, you know, there, there is some reason and for it, and even those difficult decisions that we make or those things that we do, and, you know, we kind of wish we had done something differently. 

We end up in a place where we look back and we think, oh, that's, that makes sense. You know, that makes total sense. These things are coming together now for this purpose. And maybe it was a difficult decision at the moment, and you feel like you could have done something differently. But I, I really, I, I don't know. I guess it's the, the optimist in me, the, the pragmatic optimist in me says these, this is, this is all, this is all how it was supposed to work out. You know, I was supposed to do these things and now it's all coming together and I'm doing this work, or I'm, or I'm playing this role, or I'm, you know, I'm in this relationship with this person because these things, this trajectory that I was on all makes sense.

Stephen Matini: What would you say that there seems to be something important, even though you would like our listeners to know?

Molly McGuigan: I think what comes to mind for me is, you know, life is a journey and be in the moment, being in the moment within each of, each of the components of that, of that journey. Each, each portion of that journey. And, you know, understanding who, who is around me, who who is influential. And really most importantly, what about myself was, you know, most important to that part of the journey. What can I learn about who I am and what I bring and what I value.

Stephen Matini: It is a squiggling line. .

Molly McGuigan: It's a squiggling line, . And that's the exciting part. I would actually be born to death if it was a straight line. I'm not a straight line kind of gal . And one of the things I value most is that it, it, yeah, it, I don't even know where the line is headed today. . Yeah. I think I, we, you know, we spend a lot of time in the work. I know that we do, you and I do a lot of, a lot of times encouraging people to come up with some big vision for their future, you know, some big audacious dream. 

And I, I do, I find I find a lot of value in the exercise of doing that. I think that there is tremendous value, but I also think that we need to sort of ditch this idea that there's this there, that there's this big audacious sort of space that we're supposed to be going towards, you know, because really the beauty is in the, in the journey there, and it can, it can shift and it can look completely different.

I mean, I think it's important to think about those things, but at the end of the day, it's about really sort of getting a better sense of what are your values? What are the things that really light you up, you know, day in and day out, and spending the most time doing those things and, and pivoting and adjusting as you go along to make, you know, make the space for those things. I think that's really how my work has, and my, and my life has evolved the most is, is in recognizing that it's okay, I'm letting myself off the hook, that I don't have like this big, you know, in 10 years I'm gonna be here, you know, I'm going to have, have this whole you know, this, this whole world around me because, you know, the reality is right now is, is the most important thing.

Stephen Matini: Your kid is really fortunate.

Molly McGuigan: .

Stephen Matini: He has a, he has such a wonderful mama. Wow. ,

Molly McGuigan: Thank you. Well, I'm gonna make sure he listens to that. And, and here's that one. I'm telling him to clean his room and do all the things that mom still do.

Stephen Matini: Thank you so much for spending time with me. Thank you. This is was wonderful. I loved it.

Molly McGuigan: Oh, thank You. Thanks for the invitation. I really appreciate it, and I love talking to you. It was, it was, it was a wonderful chance just to to take the, take a moment, take a pause for myself, and really think about some of these important questions that you've asked.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit breakfastwithstephen.substack.com

Today's guest is Puneet Sachdev, a global people and culture leader passionate about leveraging data, technology, and humanity to create inclusive and innovative workplaces. 

In a world of incremental technological changes, Puneet believes staying close to people is the key to success.  

In this episode, Puneet will share his views on the existing shortfalls in how organizations are developing senior female leaders. Puneet talks about Shakti, which is the principle of divine feminine, and how it can help bring balance to leadership in a world that is still predominantly masculine.

Listen to this episode of Pity Party Over to learn how to close the gender leadership gap in organizations.

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TRANSCRIPT

Stephen Matini: You lived in so many different places, so many different countries. What have you learned from all these traveling and all these experiences?

Puneet Sachdev: When I look back on this and who I am as a result of it, of course one of the things which comes from doing that and having, like you said, lived in four or five different continents, worked in all over US, UK, Europe, Asia, Australia, a bit in Africa as well, actually Botswana off for very short period of time. 

I think you have to have a lot of tenacity or you will develop that. Because remember each time you go in a new context, some situations I've had to go and create my life there. And then you have to start networking and you're dealing with a lot of stereotypes, a lot of mental unseen barriers. That's one thing which I have learned that just constantly have to be upping your game, build your networks, try to find people who understand who you are, what's your value proposition. That's one. 

It makes you very adaptable. It just makes you extremely adaptable. You can be, you can hit the ground running in utterly, I can talk myself that hitting the ground, running in no time is absolutely becomes a part of, you know, who you are in. 

In a way it's adaptation for survival as well to an extent. The challenging side of that is that networks, friends, because when you go to these places, they are people who you would like to hang out with, but they have their local schoolmates college friends. You gotta be there for a long period of time. And then also it depends on the culture. So I think it's you know, it's been a number of these different things. So it's, it's got it ups and it's got it's it's downs as well.

Stephen Matini: Have you always known that you wanna be in change management, leadership development, or is it something that unfolded over the years?

Puneet Sachdev: Not really. Stephen, no. My dad's from the Indian Navy, the area in which I grew up, whatever, where, you know, when finishing off college school in, in the nineties, the middle of the nineties and all of that, there were very few options available. 

There was in India, the engineering, doctor, lawyer, armed forces, rights? So mainly these were where you would get the jobs. I have a very, I had a very impressive uncle, my mother's brother, Tenesh Tata. I mean, until today, I don't think I met anybody else who was as impressive. 

Very charismatic, very handsome guy, dresses up extremely well. Very intelligent international chap, one of the pioneers in the hospitality business in India. One of the first few people to go overseas to Salzburg and study and come back and he joined the Roy Hotels as a management trainee in their first batch in the 1970s.

I think subconsciously that was planted that I want to be like the mau. That's what we call Uncle Mau in India. I finished my college and then I applied just for that program. Nothing else. I just applied for The School of Management. Now it's called The Center for Learning and Development. I actually don't know what I would've done had I not got selected for that way stringent the talent acquisition process. But two thousands of people apply and they hire only 10, 15, whoever they think would be general managers down the line, right? 

I think I was one of those eight or 10 who managed to make it that year. That's the way life started for me. Transition into OD work, which I do right now, people, culture, organization development, change management. It wasn't a part of my plan. I was doing very well where I was. What happened was General Electric was ramping up, scaling up at India considerably. Okay. This is I think like two thousands now. 

One of my fathers grand, Dr. Cherian, he was a management consultant in organization development working globally. He had suggested, why don't you think about stepping out of the hotels into corporate? 

So yeah, the transition was completely happenstance, but I love the work I do totally, you know, number of things, right? Which for me, create flow at work is connection with people is very important for me to know that, to have a sense of contribution into the world, into people is important, it creates that to me. 

As far as I have the ability to do that, to be creating the solutions I design to be, to bring in research, to bring in technology, work with smart people, solve problems. I'm happy , honestly. And I think the choices that I've made, it has given me all these options. So I really think it's been really lucky to have been doing all this work for so many years.

Stephen Matini: You have traveled hard, you have worked hard. Because you have seen so many different cultures, you have experienced at so many different organizations. From the perspective of someone whose specialty is change, you know, is organizational development, have you noticed any elements that seem to be consistent across all these experiences?

Puneet Sachdev: It's very easy to now get squared data driven and tech and all that. Fantastic. I think it has its place, but we don't want the tale to act the dog in many ways, and the dog in many cells, many sense it still remains the people, it still remains the humanity of the world, right? 

And we have a very privileged show to play, in my opinion, to raise the consciousness of organizations. That's the lens through which I do my work is to go there to elevate the consciousness of this organization, whatever that looks like. Consistent elements for me will always remain staying close to people, no matter what you do. 

Let's look at it in two different ways. Explain close to people. If you look at it in the sense, if I'm leading a team and I'm dealing with stuff, then having a regular one-to-ones with the people having two-way communication channels, having the opportunities to, to best practice sharing, to understand, to help grow and all of that.

So I think, I mean always staying close to the people has been important to me to understand the people as much as I can. I'll give you an example. 

Hotels, at least the Old Roy is very, very strict on the customer satisfaction scores. The the board or the leadership team of the organization, every day they would get these CSAT scores from all hotels, 30 hotels in the world. They would go through it. They would actually give a call to the general manager of a property if they saw anything that was, so it was a measure higher than I think for them money was the employee experience, right? 

In that context, the teams that I ran over there, we always ended out with the highest CSAT scores consistently throughout f and b operations. And the other part was the highest density of employees of the month. And I can attribute it to one or two things. 

We are still remain universal no matter where you go. I really, honestly, genuinely care for the people that I've worked with. I not only knew them, I knew about their families, I knew about their dreams and desires. I used to go to the houses, give them flowers and cakes. If there was any occasion, I've done that all personally. 

Even today when I'm working organization consultancy, I feel that what has made me successful and because it's me, right? I'm walking through all these cultures and everything else, I think is that first of all, that ability to just care about the people, build the rapport and be honestly on their side. Everything else will fall into place. 

I believe when you do that, when that's the soil in which you are cultivating what you are doing. Yes, there's people analytics there, employee experience there, employee external strategies, all that will come. But the essences, you're serving these people today. 

The other very important aspect, which has to be recognized by any leader is wellbeing. It's very overwhelming all around. Whether you look at the social environment, political environment, now you add the old complication of generative AI and all the anxieties, which that is bringing up with people. D&I is a big deal. There's so much going on. You need a robust heart in a human being to be a leader today. And that comes with a lot of self-awareness. I think that's the genesis of everything for me.

Stephen Matini: When you work as a consultant and you step into an organization, there's somehow that component, the human component that the consciousness is just not part of the organizational fiber. How do you move around as a first step to introduce a such important concept?

Puneet Sachdev: The way I would look to influence to shift the zeitgeist of leadership, to elevating the consciousness and the inclusivity of the human being is of course, number one, you walk the talk, right? So you role model it yourself. And fortunately for me, I have done incredible amount of my own interpersonal growth work, spiritual work. 

So I think it has automatically given me a level of depth naturally to create a level of comfort and safety for people around me. 

So role modeling it and the other way, the best way to do that is because we have, we have the influence, you design your leadership solutions with that built in. So I think it's just weaving it into the employee experience and into the design of solutions in leadership development. 

The easiest, and I suppose the most lowest barrier way to do that if you, if that language was very confrontational, is through coaching. It's through incredible coaches, people like that can shift the consciousness of leaders and organizations hiding the right kind of external people. Coaches then trigger more of those conversations in many ways.

Stephen Matini: Are you ever afraid of the impact that digital and artificial intelligence could have? And you have a lot of experience in digital transformation. Do you have any concern moving forward?

Puneet Sachdev: I think if I also think about concerns, I would break them up into two different buckets. One is systemic and let's say organizational. The other is the whole human aspect of it, right? 

I think as far as the systemic side of it is concerned, I would say there would be the, the whole data privacy, the, the cybersecurity, all of that is a very big concern. 

I think on the human side of it, which is more importantly as well today, is this constant and sense of surveillance, protection, insecurity. It has a lot of implications on mental health because the more and more we dependent on looking on the phones and the technology that is becoming a much more mental health epidemic than it has been, especially for the younger generations. I think those are the most common, I mean I, I think that's very commonly understood that these are the key concerns today as far as tech is concerned.

Stephen Matini: You mentioned last time when you and I talked the notion of the divine feminine. You talked about Shakti. Would you mind sharing, how did you gravitate towards that?

Puneet Sachdev: It's, it's an evolution. Yeah, it is, it is a percentage of the work I've been doing recently. Still not the bulk of it. Maybe it will in the future, who knows. But it is a, it is it's a percentage of what I do today. It's an evolution of the work I've been doing with women leaders, right? So I've been doing the coaching work, actually, it, it's even before that coaching over time I've seen that most of my clients tend to be female leaders. Bulk of them, like 60, 70%. They have been female leaders, you know, for one reason or the other. And they've come from all over the place. They've worked incredible places like Hollywood and from Rolls Royce to Goldman Sachs, like I said, et cetera. So a lot of them from tech as well. Cause I do coaching on the NASDAQ Center in San Francisco.

So I'm on the coach on the coaching panel for the number of years. I do that as well, Jen, from there it was to start looking at what would a solution look like for in-house women leaders, right? So most of this was one-to-one work with women who would come to me outside of my regular work consulting work that I was doing. So I started looking at the, the data around it, you know, now the concept of divine feminine in a very simple, very simple language is that it is both it is basically about the qualities of creation, nurturing the life, giving energy, the empathy. We are talking about those qualities. That's what we mean of the divine feminine and that that is there in both men and with women, it's just that it's easier, it's more prevalent and it's more of the d n a of a woman than it is of a guy.

When I started looking at the data, right, in terms of what are we doing for when there's a lot of talk about programs and solutions to address the leadership gender gap, to look at elevating women's leadership. All of that is going on right now in, in the world, as you know. So I started looking at some of the information. To me it still looks very, very traditional. It may be given a very fancy name of like wild, which is women in leadership development is one of them. But even if I look at some of the top business schools, I still think it's so masculine. It is so outside in the, the crocs and the essence and the drift of what is happening is around imposter syndrome, confidence, networking and understanding your leadership. So it's generally in that genre still. This is based on my research, right?

So, but that's what I notice and the soil in which it is created is still outside in. You are the problem. You go get fixed, go to this program, to this leadership, women's leadership program, learn these different things, and you come back into a patriarchal container in most of the situations. And then you fit in and you behave with those, those masculine capabilities or those somewhere masquerading there to be able to move up and succeed, right? So you are subjugating who you really are at the core and that's what it looked like. Like you know, you So it one is that the other part of it, what I don't think they do very well, they do not address the water in which this is going on. There's a huge big cultural piece to it. The performance environment piece to it. The legacy thinking, the legacy practices.

I mean, if you're not gonna address that, even if you do a great job with women leaders, they're gonna leave. That's what you'll do. You'll only make them more attractive, more self-aware to know that this is what I don't want , I don't want to do this anymore. You'll make them more aware of it. That is once they get tuned into truly who they are. So it began from their step to look at it. And then from there I started then I designed the solution. It's got shock theorizing. Shocki means the divine feminine as you already mentioned. And it's got two pillars to it. One is the individual tra the other thing as well, which I would like to add as well, most organizations, the work is still very cerebral. It's still very left brain oriented, right? I don't think it is transformational.

Now you look at the life of a woman leader, right? Let's just say directors, VPs, all that, they're probably late thirties. They're into their forties and fifties and that's their station in life today. So you, let's put two and two together. You look at their life outside of work, personally, there's data around it. In the UK there's a recent research of 2000 women leaders in organizations researched. They talk about traumatic experiences and between the, I mean many of them between, let's say between 40, 45 and 60 65 have been through at least five traumatic events in their life. Sexual abuse, domestic violence, there could be the menopause. And you have to remember this all leaves an energetic signature in the nervous system of that human being who is dealing with it, whether they acknowledge it or they agree to it because it's become so normalized that, right?

You just get on with it. But it does imprint. Where does that show up? It shows up in your wellbeing and your health. Most of the autoimmune diseases, 70% that happened to women. I'm not saying there's necessarily a core correlation, but there is something around there. Mm-Hmm. . The other part of it is decision making. You know, it will a hundred percent impact the quality of decision making. I think when you're designing a solution for the women leaders, and I've written extensive, I, I recently posted around International Women's Day, I wrote an article, which is when women lead firms win the metaphysics, the business case, and the approach for closing the leadership gender gap, it starts with this whole conversation about the divine feminine. Why is that important to the humanity? And then I have put a lot of data around it, McKenzie, Lena Gallop Gardner, which clearly states that when women lead firms win, you know, very much whether you look at the ebot performance of an organization, which is top quarter in their, in women in leadership, they will outperform their peers up to 25% in earnings before income and tax.

And then there are statistics about women, what 30%, at least 30% in leadership positions is a tipping point for profitability, et cetera, et cetera. So the number of stats are quartered over there. So it's very clear the solid business case to be able to doing, to do this work comprehensively and well enough. So the solution which has been designed, which I've designed, has got two core elements to it. One is the transformative experience for the women leaders. It's done in a group coaching and an action learning container. Okay? So business goals, what are you gonna be accomplishing or what we do? But diagnostics beneath Engram 360 on leadership do all that stuff. The ultimately the goal is to be able to take them deep with the themselves. The deeper they go within themselves, the more they get in touch with their own core needs, what they have not addressed, what they are, the better, more integrated people they will be.

They'll have clearer boundaries. They'll have a clear yes, a clear no that will have its own ripple effect in the organization and at homes in a positive way. It'll be uncomfortable to begin with. But if the sponsors and the people around these women are aware, then I think, you know, you know what you're creating. It's a very interesting quote by an Indian Bollywood actress, let me see if I can remember it. Her name is Pre Zinta. She says that behind every successful man, there's a successful woman behind every unsuccessful man, there are two women and they are behind. I thought that was hilarious. And behind every progressive woman is a progressive man. And that is the essence behind every progressive woman leader is a progressive organization. And that is what shock the is designed to do. So it's there, it's got wellbeing, self-compassion, understanding of leadership masculine and feminine leadership dynamics.

So it's got all that covered. It's a mind, body, spirit approach. The other element of it is looking at the performance environment. So that's, so this is a seven month journey, the individual journey, which can be bespoke and tailored. The other one is looking at the performance environment in the organization. So core element of the women's journey is the group coaching, the leadership, the business, your own business goals, personal development goals, introspection, self-compassion, and also allyship. If an organization was to say, just run the group coaching and the action learning piece, that's not shocking. That's, that's just group coaching it for it to be shock. The, the group coaching part of it, your business goals, the introspective piece, the self-compassion, the wellbeing piece, and the commitment by the organization to allyship is critically important. That makes it what it is, right? And as a part of the onboarding journey, all stakeholders are a, are there present in the room to hear the same language around let's say the divine feminine, the importance, all this data around what's happening, I shared with you about the traumatic experiences and business impact data.

So everybody is present to the same container that we are creating and that can be then taken and that these women leaders can be supported individually as well as organizationally. And then there is a five to seven week kind of a diagnostic piece that dives into looking at the performance environment in terms of policies, practices. Is there a clear charter on our approach towards general equality? If so, what is it? What are the KPIs around it? If an organization is well down that path, then it's fine. Carry on doing that, great. If not, then this is a comprehensive solution to actually genuinely address the challenge of the leadership journal gap and creating very targeted, very bespoke way persona oriented solutions for women leaders who require a lot of nuance. And you can't just do blanket the stuff that we've been doing in the past.

Stephen Matini: You have so much experience when you hit a rough spot, when you have somehow a bad moment. How do you get out?

Puneet Sachdev: I regularly have to be dealing with situations I haven't dealt with on a fairly regular basis. That comes as a part of doing, having worked and traveled so much and being in so many different situations, my own just dreams and desires. They just keep expanding and I'm always in a situation, I don't know what the bloody hell to do now. 

One is that I have got my practices and routines where I think are just the most important things to do. Getting up early in the morning, I do my prayers and my meditation for about a half and half, 45 minutes, sometime longer, sometimes lesser. I run regularly. And that also the running came into my life also because I was dealing with a lot of mental health challenges during separation and divorce. I mean it was about 10 years ago now, but I did not want to go down the root of antidepressants, which every people around me was suggesting.

I spoke to a few people and I said, no, I don't want to do that. So the way I dealt with it was more through prayer and running, quite honestly has been incredible. So I think that really has to be dialed in into your life. Even if you're not dealing with constant change, just looking around you, it's very overwhelming today. Ultimately, why you doing all this? To just keep your nervous system in the, what you call the parasympathetic nervous system as activated, which is your rest and relax. It's a nervous system game, Stephen. 

Nothing else. If you bring it down, it is all how you are regulating and co-regulating your nervous system. Co-Regulating would be with the people around you, the people supportive with you that COEs gives you energy and stuff like that. But otherwise, my own regulation mechanisms are my prayers are my running and exercising, having my green smoothie and eating clean food.

But when I'm going through some really challenging questions, decisions to make, then my prayers and my fasting, I do fast. Then for decisions, I would fast. When I say fast, I'll probably have one meal in a day for let's say three days or whatever I wanna be doing, depending on what I'm dealing with. So I can quiet and be noise within me and really get access to the truth. But the fact also is, you know, you can do all of that ultimately when you have to make a decision. It still is tough. It still is so bloody tough to make certain decisions. Whether it was a decision to move from the UK to Australia, right? The decision from them, it was a personal decision to have been made, et cetera. I regularly work with coaches and people who I trust as especially one lady Daphne.

She has been the most incredible support for me for the last 10 years. She knows me extremely well. I definitely will have a touchpoint call with her or maybe a few of them, but whoever I think I need to bring into the conversation. So that is my way of making decisions through challenging situations. And if you talk about organizationally when I'm working with teams and let's say you're going through challenging times. 

You know what I have done for my, what I've done is, number one is with the team being very open and upfront about what is what we are dealing with. Clear open communication, involve the team, break that down into constituent parts, bring the team into cre. Looking at that, okay, you look at the problem of the, let's say the revenue. You look at the problem of the people side of it, you look at this, you look at that, and then let's work on that together.

So that makes us all very cohesive way together on this. What I would also do is to have some kind of play or creative activity. Alright, we are gonna go do some basketball, but we'll do something like that. We get out. So we are tapped into our creative energy as well to create different solutions from the problem. What I've also used in the past very well is best practice visits or conversations quite okay, who do we know who is done this? Let's just line them up or let's go to their office. Let's have a conversation. So do that and do research.

Stephen Matini: Thank you for your generosity and for all these amazing thoughts. This is really, really wonderful. I

Puneet Sachdev: Hope for this episode to be

Stephen Matini: Listened to by as many people as possible. Thank you so much.

Puneet Sachdev: Thanks Stephen. Thanks for the opportunity.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit breakfastwithstephen.substack.com

It's fair to say that most people do not enjoy experiencing conflict. Conflict is uncomfortable, and it's challenging to handle it properly when we are a piece of the equation.

Today's guest is Dr. Liane Davey, bestselling author, keynote speaker, and facilitator on conflict. Liane is a spoonful of sugar in the world of conflict, combining a solid academic background with a wonderful sense of humor.  

In this episode of Pity Party Over, we will discuss many practical tools to handle conflict, like the importance of understanding the truth of others before sharing our own and how to balance vulnerability and accountability to strengthen our connection with people. 

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Stephen Matini: I'm here with “Lady No,, I'm here with “Lady No.” My first question for you is, when did you become aware that “no” was gonna be center stage in your life, in your professional career?

Liane Davey: , when I started doing a lot of work on conflict and the importance of healthy conflict it, it started to dawn on me that no is a really central and important word in being able to have boundaries, have healthy conflict. 

I think it, it was, I don't even remember how long ago it was, maybe 2013, I'm not even sure, and I was writing for Psychology Today, and I wrote a post playing off of the name of the month, November to call it “No-vember.” That's when I started this, you know, identifying my brand with saying no. 

And so in this subsequent Novembers, I've been doing this sort of 30 days of things to say no to, to be happier, healthy, and more productive. So it was that first realization, and the first year it was just one article, about 10 things to say no to. But over time, it's become something very important to me. And not only, I think it, it started as a conflict thing, now it's about focus, and it's about boundaries. And so now it's using no for all sorts of good.

Stephen Matini: One of the comments that I receive from people most of the time is, it's easy for you to talk because you are an independent professional. So you are in a position you can say no, but me in this place, in this organization is much harder. People are often caught in this dichotomy: if I say no, how I'm going to be perceived? And if I don't say no, I'm gonna end up being a pressure cooker. When that happens to you, what is the first step that you take with the client?

Liane Davey: So what I'm trying to do anytime that I'm gonna have conflict in a healthy way with somebody, is the first thing I'm trying to do is understand what is their truth. 

So what we want to do when someone says something we disagree with or we want to say no to, we tend to assert our truth. Let me tell you, , why that's so wrong and what I really need, instead of just spending a moment pausing to try and understand where that suggestion came from. So first of all, I would just reiterate what they said. 

Okay, so I understand you want to host a big in-person client event, just reiterating and even that quick pause that says to the person I'm listening to you, even that is gonna help you be on a better path. 

Then I'm gonna ask a question to understand where are they coming from? So I might say, tell me about your thought process. What got you to recommending a client event? Those sorts of questions. Big open questions that allow them to paint the canvas with their truth. You know, probably you need a couple additional questions to really understand what it's about for them.

And then you wanna get to the point where you can say, all right, so my sense is that for you, this is about maybe our marketing campaign didn't land. Our customers don't understand the value, and you really wanna bring them together and have a have a second shot at telling them about our new product. 

If you can get to the point of having their truth come out of your mouth, they won't even know you're having conflict. And from there you can share your own truth. But the, the first step is very counterintuitive. It's not at all what people think the first step of conflict would be. The first step of conflict is to get to speaking their truth.

Stephen Matini: Easy, easy or hard to implement in your own life what you preach?

Liane Davey: Hard. It, it was really funny. I posted something on LinkedIn and, and my 21 year old daughter who's now away at university, you know, she was seeing me writing all of this stuff about productive conflict and, and she just texted me like, mm-hmm. , like . 

So it's hard and it's hard because the stakes are very high. It's hard because you have decades of baggage with, with your family members with doing it at home, but I'm getting better at it and I'm, you know, really focusing on raising things sooner, working through the discomfort all those sorts of things at home. 

Professionally, you know, it's a little easier, but if I can figure out how to do it at home, then I'll be in a much better spot at practicing what I preach.

Stephen Matini: People say that to me all the time. They say, well, you must have been able to handle this well, so that mm-hmm no girl the same thing. Maybe I know how to handle a little bit better. Yeah. But you have to be vigilant all the time, really.

Liane Davey: Absolutely. Yeah. I, the only difference for me is I say there's just a lot of accountability. Once you write a book about productive conflict, it's, it's really good accountability. So I just have I have more of a, an obligation than other people might feel because I do take it very seriously that I can't tell other people to do this if I don't do it. So I put a lot of energy into doing the things I recommend, but , that's the main difference.

Stephen Matini: You have become such an important voice for conflict. So now that you have become an important voice for conflict, how do you see it compared to, let's say, when you started out this whole thing? What has changed?

Liane Davey: Yeah. So I, I think when I started working as a team effectiveness advisor and consultant, I, I think my original point of view was that there was too much conflict in teams and all this unhealthy, dysfunctional conflict. Now, all these years later I believe there's not nearly enough conflict and, and there's much, much, much less than you might think. 

So one of the things that's changed my perspective is differentiating between, I like to think of conflict as a verb, like as a, a process, as something you, you do. And so I, I pull out all the things that are, oh, no, we have issues that we aren't addressing, and I try not to talk about those as conflict. 

So we have grievances and resentment and bitterness. There's lots of that. So don't get me wrong, when I say there's not a lot of conflict in teams there is lots of resentment and bitterness and grievance, but what there isn't a lot of is the active path toward resolving those sorts of things. And so I reserve the word conflict to be no, no, you have to actively be doing something. For me to, to call it conflict,

Stephen Matini: I was working with the leadership team, and these are people that have been working together for a long time mm-hmm. . So they had really very specific ideas of one another. There was a lot of cliquey weird stuff happening among themselves. So a lot of mistrust. Yeah. So we did the whole program and I'm, I don't think it was successful. And in the end, I still sensed their hurt, that inability to be transparent, to be communicative. So yeah. When you work with people that have been known each other forever and they don't trust each other, , what is the first step that you would take with them?

Liane Davey: So, interestingly, I don't start with the relationships because as soon as you start with the relationships and the team dynamic, I find people become defensive. They immediately are like waiting for the accusation to be pointed at them, and or worse, they're ready to launch the assault at, on, on somebody else. 

So instead of going into a team that has trust issues and a dysfunctional dynamic, and talking about the dysfunctional dynamic, I go in talking about what is the organization counting on this team to do? And there are a couple of things that help with that. First of all, I start talking about how is the world changing? So I'm talking about trends, opportunities, threats to their organization that come from the external environment. 

So the purpose of doing that is that if we're going to make changes in how we're behaving, we can say, it's not that we were failing. It's not that we were doing it wrong, it's just just that the world has changed and we need to evolve to keep up. And so there's a little bit of psychological safety in not admitting that this change is because of, of of, of me or being wrong, but instead a, about the future. 

And so, external orientation, longer time horizon, those kinds of conversations about what the business needs from you are safer. And people tend to align around those things. Their shoulders go down a little bit as they relax, but then the question becomes, okay, so if that's the way the world is changing and therefore our team needs to be more of this and less of this, then you can get to the, okay, so how do we need to show up differently to be that? And it's just a safer path toward the same conversation.

So that's how I come at it. And again, unconventional, counterintuitive. I think a lot of people who believe they have trust issues and, and go to a team offsite expect to be bearing their souls. And, and, and usually at the end of the day, people will say, well, it's not what I expected, because it's been a more constructive conversation. 

It's been back to, this is the other thing that's important, but getting them out of their own grievances and into, there are a lot of people counting on you to be an adult here, the shareholders, the customers, your suppliers, other employees. And so sometimes that's also helpful to give them some perspective that if this team can't pull it together, there are, there are people who are gonna feel that and who are gonna lose as a result. So that's where I start in a situation like that. 

The other thing that's worth saying is that in the vast majority of circumstances, there's at least one person on a team in that situation who just can't believe again. And I make that clear before we start, and the goal would be for the people to raise their own hands and say, I can't be a part of this. I can't believe in this. I can't let the wound heal. And those people just decide to, to leave. But almost always, at least one person leaves before you can reset the team.

Stephen Matini: If the team leader, if that person is not fully involved, is that person doesn't fully sponsor the event, can the team still become more functional and trustworthy?

Liane Davey: Yeah. I believe that they can. I think about it a little bit like children who are raised by very dysfunctional parents, and at some point the kids learn to band together and, and protect themselves. You know, help meet one another's needs, be a safe haven for one another. So it's, it's a positive step. It is going to feel better for team members. 

So one of the things you can do is if one of the ways the general manager is failing is that they don't get people aligned, they don't prioritize effectively. If that's the case, getting together with your teammates and saying, okay, at least we should be aligned, and let's all agree among ourselves what we're gonna prioritize, you can do that. 

If the team leader is pitting you against one another, creating competition, you can again come together and decide, we're not falling for that. Let's support each other. You can manage up together, . So there are lots of different things you can do. 

They aren't a full solution. I include it in a category that I call, if you can't make a dent in the problem, like you can't fix the boss, reduce the dent it makes in you. And so that's gonna make it a little bit better. Your experience will be better if you've got your colleagues and your teammates on side. It's not fixing the underlying issue of a poor leader, but at least you can buy yourself some time. See if that, you know, leader disappears if they, you know, have an epiphany. If you manage them up in a way that allows them to be successful in new and more healthy ways, at least for the time being, I do think you can make it a bit better.

Stephen Matini: You have this way of approaching this topic, which is so different compared to anyone else in my opinion, because you have a strong academic background, and you can feel it when you talk, but the way you speak it, it's always unconventional. You say things in a way that make a lot of sense. Where do you get your inspiration for talking about these things in a way that is so interesting and fresh?

Liane Davey: Yeah, you're gonna laugh at this story. This is a silly story, but this is the truth. Many, many, many years ago, I was watching the TV program, 60 minutes and 60 minutes. It was coming up to the American Thanksgiving Day holiday when everybody cooks turkeys for, for the holiday. 

They did a little segment on, there's a, a brand of Turkey called Butterball Turkey. When you buy a Butterball Turkey, it's coded in plastic and it has a telephone number on it, a toll-free number to call for Turkey emergencies, . And they did this segment on TV of the approximately 30 people at the time, all women, home economics graduates, this is probably in the eighties, I saw this segment. 

Those people are there just to answer your calls and deal with your turkey emergency. So it's things like, it's my very first Thanksgiving as a married woman and my mother-in-law is coming for dinner and I forgot to thaw the turkey. It's still frozen. What do I do? 

Or I forgot to buy the ingredients for stuffing. And these ladies would do things like tell you to open your fridge and open your cupboards. They would write down everything you had and they would create new recipes for you on the spot for how to make things. 

It was of a fun segment, but the most important part of the segment and the inspiration for me was the leader of the whole group. She said, look, there's only one magical thing about what we do, and that is we begin, we respond after they've told us about their turkey emergency, we respond to every single call with, it'll be fine. And what we're doing is we're projecting to the people that no matter what this is, we're the experts. We got you, and we're gonna get you to the other side.

And that truly was my inspiration, realizing that, you know what? I have so many recipes for better listening, better conflict. You know, I, I have all the recipes. I do have a PhD in Organizational Psychology. I'm not worried that I can open the cupboards in the fridge and find a way to get you through this. 

The most important thing is that you believe that I can get you through this and you can get yourself through this. And so as I've come to understand neuroscience better over the years, understanding the role of mirror neurons, the role of emotional contagion, I know that what I'm doing is giving the room a chance to believe, to stay in the moment, to stay with it. But all of that inspiration came from a very simple Butterball, Turkey lady , just saying, the most important thing is it'll be fine. 

So that's the truth of where my silly inspiration for the, the way I carry myself, the tone I use, the words I choose, I want them all to be, you can do this, I'm right here with you. Okay, let's open the cupboard and see what we got to work with.

Stephen Matini: So you're like the Julia Child of conflict

Liane Davey: . Yes. Exactly. I love that. Yeah.

Stephen Matini: You know, now that you said it, I understand

Liane Davey: I, that's the holy story. But that's, that's where it comes from.

Stephen Matini: Before when you were talking ... have you noticed any gender dynamics in the Henley of conflict within organizations?

Liane Davey: I think if I am, if I reflect on it, I would say no , that individual differences are massive and much bigger than gender differences. So there are certainly ways that men and women are socialized differently, the women to be more, to be more submissive, to, to give in, to bend to power. 

But I, I can tell you many examples of women who are vicious in conflict and, and really nasty. And, and so I might say women are more passive aggressive than men, but women's passive aggressiveness is, is gossip and that sort of thing. But men are very passive aggressive, but it's often in the form of sarcasm or one liners or those sorts of things. So it's not that men or women are more passive aggressive than the other, but that we've been socialized to channel that. 

I see many women who are conflict avoidant. They often talk about it from the, either, I don't want to hurt somebody else. I don't wanna say that cuz it would be hurtful or it comes from imposter syndrome, who have I to disagree with that person? But I see many, many, many men who are highly conflict avoidant. 

Over the years I've had moments of thinking that men are more conflict avoided or I see more of those than women who are. So I think it's really about massive individual differences. Each person I work with, I try and treat them as somebody who has a very different story, different baggage about why they, you know, approach conflict the way they do or run for conflict the way they do. I do think there are very interesting things about men and women in the workplace. But I wouldn't say that it's that we can say, you know, women do this and men do this.

Stephen Matini: One thing that I may have witnessed are cultural differences.

Liane Davey: Very, very true, right? So I was facilitating a session in Bangkok in the room, there were a couple of very senior women from Asian countries, one from Korea, one from Japan. There was a man who was Dutch and another man who was Colombian. And I would say the big differences in the room were both cultural differences, so just the, the Colombian participant, the way he expressed everything was so passionate that it was very easy to over-index his contribution just because it was so passionate. 

And the, the Dutch person beside him, people were not getting as upset about the issue as I think he wanted them to be. But it was because he was so level as he described it. But then I think we had the, when we had the Asian folks in the room, I think we had this interaction of both Asian cultures, but also women in Asian cultures. 

So all of it is in the mix, you know, certainly understanding the difference between how an Israeli is going to, you know, show up in a conflict. It's not personal, it's just the issue, and it's going to be very direct versus various South Asian cultures where it's gonna come at you very indirectly, maybe only on the break. So there's, there's all of that. You really have to be attuned to all of it. When you do this work, don't you, ,

Stephen Matini: What is the Canadian way to approach conflict?

Liane Davey: A hundred percent passive aggressive. 

Stephen Matini: Oh, really? 

Liane Davey: Yeah. So it's very funny because Canadians have a reputations as being very nice. We're always talked about it as a very nice culture. And I just laugh. I'm like, no, we just stab you in the back. 

So we, we do have a very strong culture of being polite and civil and friendly to your face. And I would say English Canada versus French Canada is a little bit different on this. I think, you know, culturally québécois folks in Canada tend to be better at at getting the issues out on the table. But for lots of Canada, lots of passive passive aggressiveness in the culture and it makes things hard. It means conflict avoidance is, is a big deal for us. 

It's like anything else. You can't, you know, describing an entire nation, of course 38 million people with one description is, is unfair. But just relatively speaking, I think that's what, and it's interesting cuz I work with a lot of expatriates who've come to work in Canada or Canadians working in US teams, and people are always surprised at, at how much effort it is to try and get them to get the issues on the table. It's challenging.

Stephen Matini: One of your interests right now is the concept of messing up. It is about becoming, expressing all the who you are. This idea, is it connected to conflict? I think it is. Would you mind telling me more about?

Liane Davey: Yeah. So for me, the ideal combination in relationships is this interesting combination of vulnerability and accountability. That's why I love messing up, because there's no better chance to get this perfect combination of vulnerability and accountability then when you mess up . 

And so by that I mean vulnerability is being willing to sit in the awkward, to sit in the discomfort of, I messed that up. I know that me messing that up had an impact on you. All of that. That's not a great feeling. Or I haven't messed up yet, but I feel it, I feel it coming. , I don't know how to cope with this. I I I'm not on track. All that vulnerability. Vulnerability begets vulnerability. So when we show someone else that we are fallible, but we are willing to be seen as kind of whole creatures who are imperfect, it encourages others to do the same. So when we're vulnerable with our teammates, it strengthens the connection. 

But if we're only vulnerable, our teammates might feel like, okay, I'm a little nervous about counting on Leanne because I'm not sure she like she's making me, she's making me worry. . So vulnerability on its own, while it's great for connection, it's not good for confidence. 

So we have to add the other half of the equation, which is accountability. And accountability says, yep, I, this just made me break into tears and I own that. I'm gonna take ownership of continuing the conversation, getting to an answer, still realizing that I own this and I need to figure it out. 

And so when you have accountability, then you get that sort of confidence. But if you have only accountability and no vulnerability, it's like you're driving, but you're driving through people, not with them messing up is this amazing chance we get to show, oh, okay, I'm not perfect.

You know, you can see me sitting in this true discomfort of learning that I've let other people down or let myself down. But also to show you that I own this. I'm learning, I'm making changes, I'm gonna do something differently. 

If you have a team full of people where you know, they're not hiding things from you, they're not pretending they're perfect, but they're also earning, your trust doesn't get better than that. And until you go through the fire together, until you mess up together, you don't really know if, if that's where they're at. And once you do, you go, okay, now I can relax and we can just know that we'll get through whatever we need to get through.

Stephen Matini: I had to learn how to handle conflict. And it was someone was actually a professor who taught me how to do it. For a couple of years was this constant no, no, no, no, no, no. And then for a while I thought, well, now I figured it out. But based on what you said, I think that for me now, the biggest challenge is probably balancing my accountability and me wanting people to be accountable with vulnerability, which is showing up as myself, my emotions, how this one affects me and all that. Which is hard. It's not easy.

Liane Davey: It's like yoga, it's a lifetime practice trying to get that balance right. And it tips right? , you have, you have periods where you tip into more vulnerability and what you're expressing in the, there's John Iso. Dr. John Iso talks about everywhere you go, you spread a virus. You decide if it's positive or negative. And when you tip into the vulnerability for a little while, you maybe spread a virus that's kind of negative and you have to like, woo, gotta tip back the other way. But if, if you tip back too far, the virus you spread is this sort of false sense of strength. And that's not a good thing to spread either. So I think it takes a lifetime of, of just constantly getting that, that balance right.

Stephen Matini: So maybe it's time to change the notion of conflict management because you talk about good fights. Yeah. And now you're talking about the importance of being messy. So I'm thinking that maybe it's time to change conflict management into, I don't know, how would you call it?

Liane Davey: Yeah. I totally, I've never had that thought before in my life, but I love it because it does make it sound like we're going to contain it and we're the boss of it. Exactly. It's the very opposite of let's throw it open and see what's in there and really, so like stop managing the conflict, start kind of experiencing it and moving through with some forward velocity. Right? 

Yeah. And I think it's why some people switch to conflict resolution. I think that is a good term. But the, the problem I have with conflict resolution is I think it applies to each decision and each deliberation, but I think some people who hear about conflict resolution think, oh, we can resolve the conflict in our team and not have any conflict anymore when I believe that conflict is something that needs to be present in your team all the time. The productive tension amongst very different and opposing demands, wishes, needs, all those sorts of things to the extent that we can think about conflict resolution is let's pick one thing, work it through to the right decision. I'm good with that. But if we use that term to, to suggest that, you know, we're done with it once and for all we've resolved that we don't need to have conflict anymore. That's an issue. We should, we should be looking for the good fight in every conversation we have.

Stephen Matini: The way that your approach, you know, your, your angle comes to me is about ...  what is the word? Continuity. It's not something that should be managed, something that stops. And now we figured out. In change management a better word is more resilience. You know? Yes. What the heck? You manage something that changes all the time. So resilience gives a sense of, that's something you continuously have to work on.

Liane Davey: I don't have a perfect word for it. You know, I always talk about it as embrace productive conflict, right? Mm-Hmm. It's something that we have to like hold onto, get comfortable being uncomfortable. It's something that should be a part of in an ongoing way.

Stephen Matini: I don't know if the right word is messing up, but when you said it to me last time, I felt that I could breathe. It feels as so much more humane, more realistic than managed conflict or whatever that is, you know?

Liane Davey: Yes. And people are messy and issues are messy and you know, decisions we have to make in organizations are messy. So let's actually appreciate that. And the key to making optimal decisions in a messy world is having all the information. 

I always think about it like algebra, you have your equation, I have my equation, and we need to solve for the unknown. We can do that. If I know your equation and you know mine, then we've got all the data we need to solve it. But unfortunately we don't do a very good job of getting your truth on the table, my truth ... 

You come from sales and I come from operations, we have very different perspectives. Your equation is very different than mine. We need to figure out what we do that optimizes the system and we just, just don't think about that frequently enough.

Stephen Matini: Conflict management or whichever word that we're going to use in the future has so many ramifications. And one of them that is so important is time management, which maybe that's another obsolete concept, but you said it's not a workload, it's our thought load. And you said, I work really hard at not being busy. I thought it was beautiful.

Liane Davey: You know, a couple of years ago I realized that it's not workload that's killing us, burning us out, it's our thought load. How much is buzzing around in our brains, waking us up at night, keeping us up at night, you know, having us in a conversation with one person fretting about the conversation to follow. 

That's when I got really obsessed with this. How do we think differently about our thought load? How do we manage it in a way? And of course we're back to NO, because you don't manage your thought load unless you are able to compartmentalize, really figure out what is the one thing that I need to be paying attention to right now. 

And so that's work that I've been focused on. So, you know, very practical things I've been working on like the bullet journaling technique. So I did a YouTube video about how to use bullet journaling as a way of taking things out of your current thought load, putting them in a schedule only at the time when you're gonna turn it into your workload. 

Collaboration and saying no, and, and understanding how somebody else’s, so doing a a, a racy understanding, okay, I don't own this so I'm gonna stop worrying about it. I know this person is on it so I don't need to fret about it. It's another piece of the puzzle. 

There are so many pieces of the puzzle. Of course the most important one is prioritization. And most leaders and managers I know suck at prioritization. They are profoundly abdicating their responsibility to their teams. 

Prioritize comes from the Latin for one, not seven. So there's all these pieces of the puzzle that I've been working on to help us get out from this absolutely inhumane thought load. Because as many people keep telling me that their workload is too high, I'm not buying it. I don't think people are actually accomplishing very much at all. 

It's like the difference between watching FIFA watching a football game where you know, you have 90 minutes and the run of play is 90 minutes. And if, if something distracts you, like an injury for two minutes, will we add the two minutes on because we need 90 minutes. And then I thought about NFL football and how there's, I don't even remember the stat cuz I can't stand to watch it because there's so little action. 

And I think that's what most people do with their work week. They're they're talking about, oh, like it was a three hour game. Yeah, but you were on the field for seven minutes. Like what? So we have so much distraction, we have so many things that are slowing us down. That's not a workload problem , it's a thought load problem. So I'm very excited about that. I think it's where my next book is gonna go is how do we manage the thought load problem? And, and that excites me.

Stephen Matini: This way of thinking of time. When did you approach it for the first time?

Liane Davey: No, it hasn't been around all that long because I used to be pretty bad at it. So I think about five years ago starting to do more mindfulness starting to manage my own. And I, it was really deciding a few years ago that I choose not to be busy. You know, another epiphany I've had is I'm okay with having a busy schedule. I'm just unwilling to have a busy mind. 

So many days, I think the day I spoke with you I had the wonderful conversation with you. I enjoyed very much and nine others that day , I was 10 different conversations, client meetings, sales calls, all sorts of things. But at no point did I feel busy during that day because each time I was fully invested in the conversation, I wasn't thinking about anything else because I have used a whole variety of techniques to manage my thought load.

So it's probably been about five years all tied to this decision. I was working with my colleague and friend Tammy Herman, and we were doing a program years ago to help women be more influential at work. And one of the things we realized we had to work on with them was their introductions, just their casual, if someone says, hi, how are you? What, how do you respond? Because they were all responding with busy. 

I said, as soon as you respond with busy, you look like you're not on top of things, you signal to the other person that, oh, you should probably be quiet now cuz this person needs to run off. You don't say I'm open for more cool opportunities. 

So we actually started with changing how they even respond to those casual conversations. And that was many years ago, I think it was 2007 when I decided I was never going to use the B word. I was never gonna talk about being busy as as a description for myself. So that was really valuable when I, when I had that epiphany and it just took until a little more recently to figure out all the tools to manage my thought load so that I could live up to that.

Stephen Matini: Yeah. If I had to say when things started changing, it's probably the same thing, these past four or five years, you know? Yeah. Like to give an example, today at some point I was it around lunch time, someone that I've been working with forever, she said, can we talk, can we talk at 4 something? So it was like 30 minutes before being here with you. Yeah. 

And I said to myself, no, I don't want to get to my conversation with you feeling tired or stressed out. I really want to enjoy it because how many times will I have the chance to talk to you? I really wanna be here. , you know, and me in the past it would've said, yes, this could be an account, could be a project, girl, you need the money. You know, I would've thought a million things, but I said, no, no, this is my day, you know, and I want to enjoy this and we can talk about it tomorrow. And the world is not gonna end.

Liane Davey: The likelihood that postponing that call by a day makes that opportunity evaporate is close to zero. And actually, if that person is so frenetic that if you didn't answer today, it, it's probably something you are better off without. Right. So I, I think just being conscious like you are, like you were in that moment, it is absolutely so liberating. 

And you said something earlier that's probably worth coming back to. Like, okay, well you two are entrepreneurs, you know, you control your lives, isn't it easier for you? And I would say no because of exactly what you said. You have that thought of nobody's paying me a paycheck. I don't just all of a sudden two weeks later get by, here's what's in your account. So it's very hard often to turn down those things to say no, to disagree with a client or prospective client about what they need.

So it's really just how you think about it and how you frame it. Certainly if you report to someone and they're your boss, you need to have conflict with them and use some techniques. I have one of my most popular YouTube videos is how to have conflict with your boss. And I go through four steps for, you know, how to do it in a way that won't get you fired. So you have to think about it, but, but I wouldn't say it's easier or harder to do it in one situation or the other, just the stakes are different.

Stephen Matini: I so do not envy younger people for that because yeah, I think it's something that probably comes with age for some people, you know?

Liane Davey: And, and for some it just never comes, right? So, you know, one of the things I remember doing when I was a manager and I was managing, I was young, so I was probably say 38, something like that. 

I had young kids and I was a manager of people who were even younger. On Mondays. My kids were competitive dancers. And so they danced six days a week and the carpooling was quite something. And so it just worked out that Mondays was my day among the, you know, there were two couples, four of us who split all the driving and Mondays was my day. And to leave the office, drive home, pick up all the kids, take them to get a bite to eat and get them to dancing for 4:30, I had to leave the office at 3:00. So I started this sort of really, really important thing for me as a manager, which is at three o'clock I would do what I call leave loudly.

Even though some people who need to leave the office, we would normally leave about five 30 and I was leaving two and a half hours early. Some people would just sort of quietly slip away . And I did the opposite. I'm like, okay, off to drive the dance bus and, and make sure everybody heard me. Because leaving loudly was such an important way to say, we can do this. It's okay. 

We need to fit personal lives and our work lives together in a way that's gonna last for the long haul. And I let a team of consultants, it's a grueling thing. Everyone knew that it, you know, as soon as the kids were in bed, I would be logged back on making up that time. There was no question about it. And I said, see, you don't question that. I don't work hard enough and I don't question that you work hard enough. So leaving loudly was a really important thing for me early in my career to signal to people that work hard, contribute value, and then be where you need to be. It's always been important to me.

Stephen Matini: Would you be an actress if you were not be doing this for a living? You would be great at stand up comedy Yeah!

Liane Davey: My favorite compliment I ever got was a salesperson in the organization I used to work in said I was like a love child between Jim Collins and Tina Faye. And I was like, okay, that's the greatest compliment. I try and sit in my big powerful brain, Jim Collins and hopefully I always refer to my brand as the sort of spoonful of sugar from Mary Poppins, right? The conflict work is very uncomfortable, very intimate, very deep. People are often yelling or crying or all these sorts of things. So if there isn't a little sugar to help the medicine go down.

Stephen Matini: We talked about a million things, . Is there anything that would be important for people that are going to listen to this, to bring home, something that you think it would be really, really important for them to focus on?

Liane Davey: I always go back to one line, which is some things are worth fighting for. If there's one thing I can encourage your listeners to do, it's to, and maybe it's even a daily practice or weekly or just try it once and see what you think. Make a list of the things that are worth fighting for. 

If you are in operations and that salesperson keeps selling new, different customized things to everyone, you may say consistency, efficiency, that's worth fighting for. I need to make sure that the sales leader understands the impact that all these differentiated products have on our ability to be efficient. 

It could be in a relationship, right? It could be the way you're treated by your colleagues and feeling comfortable and feeling respected. That's worth fighting for. Whatever it is. It's amazing how, if you're clear on what's worth fighting for, suddenly the courage to have the harder conversations to say no or to say yes or or to really engage. You'll find it. But if we aren't clear on what's worth fighting for, it's much, much harder. So that's a practice. 

You know, today. What's worth fighting for today? As you're going into a meeting, as you're walking in the door, you know, who that's not in the meeting is counting on me to fight for them. And what are they counting on me to fight for? Because pretty much all of us, when we walk into a meeting, we represent people who aren't in the room. And if we aren't willing to fight, no one's fighting for them. That's just what I would encourage people in any domain of your life, in a relationship at work, what is worth fighting for. And if you have the answer, you're gonna feel really emboldened and empowered all day.

Stephen Matini: Liane, you are a blessing. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for all that you share with me that it is going to enrich a lot of people. Thank you so much.

Liane Davey: Oh, I, I have found our conversations so joyous. So it's very, very, very much mutual, Stephen. Thank you.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit breakfastwithstephen.substack.com

As human beings, we all face difficulties and struggles in life. However, during these moments of darkness, we can often learn valuable lessons that benefit us and those around us.

Our guest for this episode of the podcast Pity Party Over is Andy Frick, Owner and Founder of A Place 2B Recovery Housing. Andy has a background in positive psychology and has provided a place where people recovering from substance abuse feel they belong.

For Andy, adding value to the lives of others provides meaning, a sense of belonging, and mattering. When we help others feel valued, we also validate our worth.

Listen to this episode of Pity Party Over to learn how to create a purposeful life by supporting yourself and others effectively.

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TRANSCRIPT

Stephen Matini: When you don't work, what do you do to relax, to center yourself?

Andy Frick: Well, one, I play a lot of soccer. Not the most common American response, but I, I play quite a bit of soccer, always did growing up and still a, a great way to connect with others and get some physical activity in which I'm sure I know I could certainly use more of. 

And then I, I really enjoy fishing, so I, I found out over the past, I don't know, maybe five, 10 years that I really enjoy fishing, especially just being in nature in general, you know, walking, outdoors, all that jazz. But fishing has become a passion of mine. So ...

Stephen Matini: Where did you grow up?

Andy Frick: I grew up in Akron, Ohio, where unfortunately there's not a whole lot of fishing opportunities, . So there's more here to offer than I had originally thought. But mostly Akron is pretty much known for... well, if you're a little bit later in life, you might know it from being the, the rubber capital of the world at, at some point. If you're a bit younger, you probably know it from LeBron James. And that's about the extent of , Akron's notoriety.

Stephen Matini: Have you ever thought about moving elsewhere?

Andy Frick: Oh, certainly. Yeah. I have, since I started going to Florida for vacation as a child, I had always dreamt of not having to deal with the cold winters of Ohio. Fortunately, life is taking me that way, and I am moving to Miami here in about a month's time, so ...

Stephen Matini: For real? Oh, wow.

Andy Frick: Yes, yes. So it'll be quite a change.

Stephen Matini: How did you get to where you are professionally?

Andy Frick: So really, my, my life experience guided me to this passion of wanting to help others in some way, shape or form, right? I've been driven by service for the, the past 10 years or so, and it was, it wasn't always the case. So I look back to my experiences growing up. I struggled to find meaning, purpose, a sense of belonging and mattering, connection to others, some of the things that are fulfilling in life. 

Those struggles kind of led me to some dark places. I think it was in the process of change that I experienced for myself, that transition from some of those darker places to experiencing some of those things I just described, where, where I had a sense of belonging and mattering purpose and meaning mostly through service to others, that really sparked my interest in helping others to experience that same thing for themselves. 

I found myself having a, a a lack of all of these things, then experiencing them in my life and then asking that question of, okay, how can I help others to have the same experience? Where, where am I needed to best help others experience wellbeing in their lives?

Stephen Matini: For many, many, many years in the past, I looked at those experiences as mistakes. And only later on in life I realized, well, probably they really had a purpose, because if they did not happen, I would not be where I am, and most likely I would not have developed the type of sensitivity that I have. Do you think you would've gotten to where you are if you hadn’t experience such darkness?

Andy Frick: No, I, I certainly don't. And I'll kind of talk about it in, in two different ways. So the one is something you touched on. You know, it's funny, I was speaking with a professor of mine, Dr. James Pawelski, from the University of Pennsylvania, and this was after I graduated from my master's program. 

There I was looking at the application process for PhD programs, and I was struggling to find, to trust the process and, and have faith that, you know, things will work out as they're supposed to. And it's something that I've grown to, to share with others, but when I needed it, I couldn't find it, right. 

And it, it was funny cuz he, he shared with me how we can't really engage in the process of sense making until we're further down the road looking back on our lives. And in the moment it's hard to explain to ourselves why things are happening the way they're happening.

We can't quite see the whole picture just yet. But when we find ourselves a little bit further down the road and we look back on our lives, kind of like you were describing, and, and my experience has been as well we, we can make sense of things and we can connect the dots and we can see, well, maybe there was some greater purpose to why this happened that happened, or I end up in this place, or, or whatever the case may be for each individual and for me in particular. 

So my work has been in the addiction and recovery space. And when I refer to these dark places for myself, it was in addiction. So I'm in recovery myself, and I had experienced active addiction. I certainly don't feel that, you know, that's maybe a more specific case, but I've likely not ended up working in that field had it not been for my experiences. 

 But more broadly, I still think that holds true for some of my other life experiences. You know, again, you don't notice it in the moment, but when you look back on your life, you recognize that, okay, I may perhaps I needed to endure whatever it was that I experienced so that I could, you know, maybe be the light for the next person. Right. And, and I think it, it does something for yourself, right? I, I found some self-fulfillment in experiencing those hardships and finding myself on the other side

Stephen Matini: When I experience darkness for me was the result of a series of really unfortunate events. At some point I experienced depression, which is something that I never had before. It really feels like all happiness has been sucked out of yourself, when you realize that it's too late, you know, I call depression the invisible assassin. 

The one thing that helped me out was the realization that the people that really love me couldn't care less about me being successful, or not all they wanted me is to be happy. So the question to you is, if we have someone that is in a dark place, for whatever the reason, and is trying to cope with that heaviness, whichever way, what would you say that could be the first step that we can take?

Andy Frick: Yeah. That, that is something I've certainly dealt with in the addiction recovery space in particular, right? So I, I find myself working with typically younger men as they're transitioning from inpatient treatment facilities and taking that next step in their recovery process. 

Oftentimes I find myself having conversations with their family. The family is of course like any of us would, looking for ways that they can help fix the problem, right? And, and that's what we wanna do for each other. We wanna find ways that we can relieve the pain for our loved ones, that we can help them to feel okay and, and fix the things that they're dealing with. 

The unfortunate reality, especially with addiction, and I think this translates well to other areas of life, is that there's only so much we can do as a loved one. We typically can't take away their pain or change their problems or make their, their situation go away in, in fact, I actually think we would be robbing them of a necessary process of life if we were able to play God, so to speak, anyway. But we can't, we're powerless over them and, and the circumstance, and the best thing we can do in my experience is, is to love them, love them unconditionally through that process.

And that can look a little different depending on the situation, but most of the time it simply means letting them know that you're there and available and that you care. And that's about where the extent of our responsibilities end, right? 

It's about as far as we can go is, hey, if you need something, I'm here for you. I love you. I support you through this process. I'm willing to do whatever I can to help. But beyond that, there's not much we can do for that individual in that circumstance. 

I think especially in, in the addiction area, parents in particular have to find a balance between that love and not enabling the individual further, right? So that's kind of overstepping our responsibilities and kind of what I was talking about earlier, a little bit of robbing the individual, the, the opportunity to experience the pain required to initiate change. 

Yeah, my experience has been just that we love them unconditionally. We support wherever possible and we recognize where our responsibility ends, and that's important. I don't think that's something we talk about very often in supporting each other through these places in life.

Stephen Matini: One thing I wanna ask you, it happened to me in the past to deal with people that were trying to cope with that deep pain in different ways, you know, it could be alcohol, it could be substance abuse, whatever there was. And I love when you say that you should not deprive them from the possibility of going through their, their journey. When you are in the situation as someone, close to someone going through so much pain, and at some point you realize that it's hurting you, that relationship is actually hurting you, how do you find balance between loving someone but also taking care of yourself?

Andy Frick: You know, sometimes loving someone means separating ourselves from that individual, somewhat similar to the situation you described in your own life. We recognize that in order to love somebody appropriately, we have to love ourselves appropriately as well. 

When we're focusing on trying to help somebody else, that's fantastic. And of course, I've found that to be tremendously fulfilling in my own life, but I find that one, I'm less equipped to do so when I'm not taking care of myself. And two, I might not being as effective as I could be when I'm not taking care of myself. 

Taking care of ourselves might leave us with that awakening that says, unfortunately, there's not much I can do and this is creating more harm in my life than good I'm doing for this individual. And in the end, when you do that, the relationship suffers regardless, right? So we find ourselves fighting to try and fix something that we cannot fix.

We're harming ourselves, and in the end, we're actually probably doing more damage to the situation than good, right? At what point does each individual come to that realization, and at what point is that in each specific situation? I can't say, right? It's different for each situation that we find ourselves in. 

For me, one of the best ways I've found is to make sure I have other people with me in the process so I can feel supported in my own process, because these are challenging times for us as well as the individual. So when I have people I can trust and that I love that are close in my life, it's important that I include them in that process as well so they can help check me and say, hey, you know, this might be taking a bit too much from you and we're worried about you as well. Right? and that's important to have.

Stephen Matini: You know, now I'm thinking about from the point of view, the person who's going through that. I did not experience, you know, substance addiction, but I definitely experienced super dark places. One thing that was really hard for me for many, many, many years was the sense of shame, like, I could not even verbalize what I was going through to people because there was so much shame and feeling that way and thinking, I wonder what people are going to feel are gonna think if I said that, and the tremendous amount of pain I would give to people that I love. And so as a result, I wouldn't say anything to anyone. Until finally I decided to speak up. So for you, when you experienced that dark place, what was the first time that you started seeing a glimpse of something else? What did you do?

Andy Frick: It's somewhat of a I don't know if I'd call it a cliche or a phrase that gets used in the recovery community. We talk about desperation and we consider it the gift of desperation. It's an interesting phrase because oftentimes I don't think individuals or anybody really would consider desperation to be a gift. But in these circumstances, I think eventually we find ourselves in a place where we're so desperate for something different than what we're experiencing, that we're willing to make the change, right? 

So we find ourselves in desperate situations, and the pain we're experiencing is powerful enough to invite a process of change. Again, this process is different for each individual, but in my own experience, that's exactly what happened. I found myself at the end of the road. I had burned many bridges. I was 19 years old and I was homeless.

I was pretty much in a, about as dark a place as I could have ever imagined my life being. The level of desperation that I experienced was enough for me to say, I don't even think I, I had this process of considering some of those things of, of, I don't wanna ask for help, so to speak. 

It was more so everything became fueled by desperation, and I was willing to do anything it took to experience something different in life. Now that's an extreme case, right? Like, that's not everybody's experience. I don't think everybody does find themselves in a place of desperation quite like that. Or the degree of desperation might be different. 

But I still think there's commonalities that we can experience no matter what it is that we're experiencing. And everybody's bottom is unique to them, right? It, it doesn't mean that everybody has to go to the places I went to experience this sense of desperation.

We can experience it in our day-to-day lives. I, I look at things like in my life today, trying to exercise, right? And I, I might find myself really struggling to get the ball rolling, and I don't wanna tell people how difficult it is for me to just go to the gym. 

And at a certain point I become so fed up with the circumstances that I become desperate for change. And I invite other people in to help me in that process. They say, hey man, look, I've, I've really been making an attempt to go to the gym regularly, but I can't seem to get myself to go. 

And just inviting somebody else into that process starts that process of change for me. And now I've got some accountability. For my specific experience, that point of desperation was the eye-opener that I kind of needed that began that transition to the recovery process.

Stephen Matini: Were there any particular people, special person that somehow has been instrumental to your journey?

Andy Frick: So many, it's impossible to discuss them all. I am immensely grateful for the people I have in my life. Has made my life incredibly rich and meaningful. In particular, my mom certainly deserves immense amount of credit for one, enduring all the stuff that she had to endure through those times, loving me unconditionally as I went through my process of change. 

And, and that extends to the rest of my family and some close friends as well. But my mom in particular comes to mind and has always been a, a supporter and cheerleader for me all throughout, all the way until today. It's really been a, a incredible relationship born out of some of the trials and tribulations we face together.

Stephen Matini: So your mom sounds really cool.

Andy Frick: . Absolutely, she is. She is. She's a fantastic, fantastic human being. Thank you.

Stephen Matini: If I remember correctly, both you and your mom, you are deeply interested in appreciative inquiry. So for those who are going to listen to this episode, appreciate inquiry is a method of change, which is based on strengths. It is the notion that we can transition faster if we focus on existing strengths rather than obsessing about how to fix an issue. How did you get interested in appreciative inquiry?

Andy Frick: The rebellious kid that I was never wanted to listen to my mom growing up. My mom really did some incredible work with appreciative inquiry and the folks at Case Western University, Dr. Cooperider, Dr. Fry, Dr. Godwin, you've spoke with Dr. Lindsey Godwin, fantastic human being. 

But nonetheless, so she, she had experienced some incredible work first at Roadway and then some work with the US Navy. And so she had shared these experiences with me at different points throughout my life, and I was reluctant to listen to what she was talking about. 

Of course, I had to find my own path. I actually, I found myself reading the book “Flourish” by Dr. Seligman. That was sort of my introduction to positive psychology, and it was the gateway to appreciative inquiry as well. 

I remember reading this, coming to my mom and saying, wow, look at this. This is incredible. Look at these overlaps to my life experience. How interesting the science of wellbeing and how have I not known about this? Right? And my mom says, yeah, I've only been telling you about appreciative inquiry and positive psychology for the past 20 years, . I'm like, no, no, no, you haven't. And sure, she, she surely had been, but I was reluctant to listen because I didn't want to hear it coming from my mom. That was sort of the gateway to that experience finding out about appreciative inquiry. Yeah.

Stephen Matini: Is she getting to appreciative inquiry because of you or other stuff?

Andy Frick: No, she, she worked at Roadway. They worked with some of the folks at Case they brought appreciative inquiry into roadway as a change method. That was her first introduction, I believe.

Stephen Matini: How did you come across the concept of mattering you mentioned that before.

Andy Frick: My experience growing up was interesting. I felt as though I never truly had this sense of belonging or what, you know, I, I would now define as mattering and we'll talk about in a second. I never felt as though I was truly connected to others, and I felt I was somewhat yearning for that sense of connection. 

I touched on the fact that I experienced addiction and then found myself in in recovery when I was 19 years old. And at this transitional phase in my life, I found myself being of service to others in the recovery process. And more specifically, I, I found that one of the best methods that was shared with me from other folks in the recovery community about change was to give of yourself to others. And in doing so, we might experience some things for ourselves. 

And, and what I mean more specifically is when I found myself inviting others into the group, helping others to feel as though they belonged, I experienced belonging for myself. When I found myself accepting and loving others unconditionally, I started to experience those things for myself. 

For the first time in most of my life, maybe my whole life, I found that sense of belonging that I was always looking for. I started to find purpose and meaning through service, work to others, and, and helping other folks feel like they mattered and belonged as well. 

Fast forward a bit and I found myself reading “Flourish,” I have these conversations with my mom. Eventually, this leads me to applying to the Masters of Applied Positive Psychology Program at the University of Pennsylvania. 

I didn't think I had a great chance of getting in, to be completely honest with you. The interview process went very well. I really connected with the faculty and folks I got to speak to before I was accepted into the program.

I really just felt called to this program and, and like this was the place for me to go. And I was determined that if I did not get in, I would just be applying again the next time around. Fortunately, I did get accepted. I found a tremendously welcoming and inviting community of people and academics in that master's program. And that is where I was exposed to the idea of mattering scientifically. 

So we, in our first semester in the program, we had a guest lecture, Dr. Isaac Prilleltensky. He spoke to us about mattering amongst many other things, but one of the ones that truly captivated me was mattering. 

He described mattering as this experience of adding value and feeling valued. And that can occur in a few different domains with the individual, with others in our work, in our community. He shared about the science of mattering.

I found myself recalling all these experiences in life and realizing how valuable mattering had been to me when I was one, not experiencing it growing up. And then that transitional phase in my life, when I started to experience what he was describing as mattering, I was like, wow, so you know, this, this engagement and, and, and adding value to the lives of others and then feeling valued by a group allowed me to feel like I was truly a part of and belonged and had meaning and purpose and, you know, all these other wellness outcomes. 

I was captivated by his presentation. It became something that I referenced quite a bit as I went through the program time and time again, I found myself turning to his work, using it in my papers. Actually, after graduating, I circled back and I had an incredible conversation with Dr. Prilleltensky, which led me to applying to the, the University of Miami's PhD program. That's what is sparking this, this move to Miami. So I was accepted into the PhD program at the University of Miami, and we'll be working with Dr. Prilleltensky come this, this fall. So ...

Stephen Matini: And I thought you were going for the sun .

Andy Frick: Yeah, the sun doesn't hurt. I'm excited about that as well, .

Stephen Matini: Well, congratulations Andy. This is wonderful.

Andy Frick: Thank you. Thank you.

Stephen Matini: You said feeling valued and adding value. In my job, I come across very often with people saying, I do not matter. I feel that in this organization, I'm just a number. I'm not heard. Is someone feels that way, what could it be the first step to feel that you matter?

Andy Frick: My experience has been that in order to experience something such as mattering, and I think this goes for a lot of other areas, love, acceptance, et cetera, the best pathway I have found for myself, and that seems to have worked for others that I have worked with, is to first find ways to give those things to others. When I find ways to help someone else feel as though they matter, I in turn experience mattering for myself. 

I think that that has been a key factor in what has allowed me to experience some of the, the richness of relationships throughout my life. First focusing on how can I add value to the life of somebody else? And in turn, that has allowed me to feel valued. 

That's really at the core of experiencing some of these things that we might be missing. I've heard people say they don't feel accepted, they don't feel loved. Some of these things, and the first thing that we can look to do is find an opportunity to love others, find an opportunity to accept others. It's been my experience that that has allowed me to feel accepted, loved, welcomed, and as though I belong as a result.

Stephen Matini: One of the early thoughts that I had when I was finally stepping out from this darkness was this thought, which is I think connected to what you're saying. I thought, if I can learn something from this, maybe this could be useful for someone in the future. And to these days, I'm always amazed when people come to me with specific questions about stuff that I blatantly failed say, why would you ask me? Well, because you know how it feels, you know how it is, you know, how, how it feels to be with your on the ground. So I'm asking you that because you went there. That's one of the beautiful thing about going through rough experiences, they become a tremendous treasure for yourself, but not just for yourself, also for others.

Andy Frick: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And that, that deeply resonates with me as well.

Stephen Matini: How did you come up with the idea for “A Place 2B Recovery”?

Andy Frick: Really, it was born out of a lot of what we just described. I actually started it with a friend of mine in the Akron area. I think there were two key factors that led us to start a place to be recovery housing, and the first of which was just the need in the Akron area and worldwide, really for that matter. Addiction is obviously everywhere, has been immensely challenging to deal with for our, our communities and our loved ones. 

Having a safe drug-free environment to begin the process of recovery, we felt was an extremely valuable component that we could add to our community and help others as they embark on this journey of change. And I think there were limited opportunities for individuals to have that safe place to go home, be away from some of the people, places and things that they were around previously when they were in active addiction.

Coupled with that was my personal experience of being homeless when I was 19, and it was a, a short-lived period of time, but it doesn't take many days of being homeless for it too really sink in on you, and it was that, that made me want to be a part of something that could provide housing for recovering addicts as they're transitioning from inpatient treatment facilities, so ... 

Those were at the core of our interests when we first got started. And I don't think we knew a whole lot of what we were getting into. And we approached it with an open mind and we asked for help from our community. And, and then I was later exposed to some of these other concepts in appreciative inquiry and positive psychology and how these could be influential on, on promoting wellbeing for the recovering addicts within our program.

Stephen Matini: When I read the difference between a place to go and a place to be, I smiled. So I think I understand what you mean, but would you mind explaining what that means to you?

Andy Frick: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I think simply put, folks could find themselves in the circumstance leaving a treatment facility, and oftentimes they need a place to go. That could be from requirements to be fulfilled by the courts or other fulfillments they might need to meet, whatever the the case may be. Oftentimes folks just need a place where they can go. 

We found it more important to provide a place to be where people can feel as though they belong, that they're a part of something meaningful where they're in a group that cares about them and where they can add value and feel value, right? Terminology I didn't know at the time, but later became relevant. We really set out with the intention of providing a place to be rather than just a place to go.

Stephen Matini: Based on anything that you've learned so far, you're still so young, , when you go through a rough time for whatever the reason, what do you do to get out of it?

Andy Frick: Hmm. I find that I am in a very fortunate situation in life today. This wasn't always the case where I could lean into those around me. Over the course of the past nine or 10 years, I have been able to apply much of what we just talked about, and that has led me to experience richness in relationships and develop trust with others. Thankfully, I have a support group of family friends that I feel I can turn to in these trying times. 

Most of the time I think I do well of turning to those people. However, sometimes I find myself and some of those dark places that we talk about and having that experience we described earlier where you don't quite want to, where you're just not ready to allow other people into that process. There's a couple things that have worked for me in that space.

One is just time. And unfortunately, as terrible as that might be, in some of the circumstances we find ourselves in allowing things the time required to pass has been an important tool in my process. Sometimes I just have to sit with my feelings and experience my experiences and recognize that eventually these things passed. 

And, and fortunately for me in my own life, I can turn back to past experiences and say, look, we've been through this and this will pass too, there are brighter days ahead. I don't know when, I don't know how, if I sit and let things pass, eventually things pass. 

The other is turning to ways to help others. I have found that to be a freeing experience for myself. You know, sometimes I think in order to get the relief we seek, maybe it's best to seek ways to help provide relief for others, right? If I can help to serve others, then in turn I might experience benefits to my own personal wellbeing in some way, shape, or form. 

That's been the action piece, the piece that I can, I can turn to and say, if I am feeling bad, I'm feeling down. I'm stuck in self-pity, I'm in the pity party. How do I end this? How do I get through this? Well, let's turn to action. What's the action? Let's help somebody else. And that's, that usually starts the process.

Stephen Matini: Today, I felt a bit weird, you know, this morning particularly. And so my method today to pity party over, I would say, is piggyback from you. Like talking to you is so energizing. So being the company of people that understand has a tremendous impact. You know, he really suits everything. So thank you. .

Andy Frick: Absolutely. And thank you. Thank you so much.

Stephen Matini: Andy, I wanna ask you, we talked about a bunch of stuff. When everything is so important, is there like something that you think it would be important for people who are going to listen to this to know or to take away from our conversation?

Andy Frick: Yeah, I, you know, I don't, I don't wanna feel like a broken record because I think I end up turning back to the same core piece and it's because it's served me well at the end of the day. The key piece for me has been that if I want to experience something in my own life, find a way to provide that in the lives of others. If I want to experience wellbeing first, focus on how I can add wellbeing to the lives of others.

Stephen Matini: You know, you have a lot in common with Dr. Lindsay Godwin. Now I understand why she suggested for me to talk to you .

Andy Frick: Oh gosh. She is an incredible, incredible friend, mentor, supportive individual. And her curiosity is unbelievable. And I think it makes all those around her equally curious and excited about what could be.

Stephen Matini: Andy, thank you so much for talking to me. I really loved every minute of being here with you. This is wonderful.

Andy Frick: Oh, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. This was terrific.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit breakfastwithstephen.substack.com

In this episode, we'll discuss how leaders can communicate effectively by listening and paying attention to people.

We have an extraordinary guest, Diane Lennard. Diane is a performance coach and faculty member at NYU Stern School of Business. 

With her background in theater and coaching, Diane has honed her exceptional communication skills and has a unique perspective on effective leadership communication.

Diane believes that everybody wants to be seen and heard, and by establishing empathetic relationships based on respect and dignity, leaders can create more meaningful connections with any stakeholder.

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TRANSCRIPT

Stephen Matini: Where did you grow up?

Diane Lennard: I grew up in the middle of Manhattan.

Stephen Matini: A New Yorker!

Diane Lennard: I am, born and raised!

Stephen Matini: How was to grow up in New York?

Diane Lennard: Well, I grew up in a an apartment complex that had, that was very large and had lots of playgrounds, lots of families, lots of children, and it was wonderful. And there was a really good public school with a lot of parent involvement. So it was a very, very nice place to grow up.

Stephen Matini: Do you think it's true when people say that anyone who moves to New York after six months becomes a New Yorker or to be a real ... ?

Diane Lennard: No. That’s a definitive no. , you can tell by the way people cross the street if they jaywalk, they're likely a native New Yorker when, you know they stand at the street corner for a really long time, that's not a typical New York activity .

Stephen Matini: What would it be other typical things that New Yorkers do that no one else would do?

Diane Lennard: I would say that we tend to be really good at shielding ourselves from difficult situations. It's a street savvy in a way, you know, how to manage just situations that you don't wanna get involved in. You know, whether it's on the subway or on the street, not making eye contact if it's gonna protect you, things like that. Just common sense safety.

Stephen Matini: Were there any people or events that somehow have impacted more than others the way that you are today?

Diane Lennard: Oh, many. I would say that two most prominent are my exposure to cultural events and my exposure to multicultural food. In growing up, every Sunday my family went to a different nationality restaurant. So from a very early age I was exposed to different cultures, not just the food, but the culture. 

We would talk to the waiters and I grew an interest in international cultures that definitely impacted my career. And I also was ex, went to lots of theater and museums, was very involved in the theater. So I know from my friends who were not native New Yorkers, when they came to visit me, they got exposed to things that they wouldn't have unless they had come to New York.

Stephen Matini: Theater plays a huge role in your life. When did you decide to actually get into theater?

Diane Lennard: I started taking ballet lessons when I was six years old. Actually five years old. I was actually part of the Metropolitan Opera Ballet Company and performed on the old Metropolitan opera stage. I got paid a dollar a minute for running across the stage, barefoot in an opera. But I had the experience of a huge audience and the backstage and it was very intriguing to me. 

I also took piano lessons and went to a special high school for music and I remember at about age 11, 12, 13, I really was wondering, what am I gonna be when I grow up? And I recall sitting down with my parents. I, I remember the actual dining table where we sat down and to discuss my, my future and I was barely a teenager. 

The suggestion was, why don't you put music and dance together in theater? So I went to summer, summer theater programs and eventually summer stock and it was a way for me to put it all together. And so it's really been forever in my life.

Stephen Matini: I did theater for a long time and I did it mostly as an act of rebellion because of high school. I never thought I could do it, because I'm not really an extrovert. I'm not someone who lost to be the center of the attention. But I did very well. And to my surprise, lot of actors, are actually quite introvert.

Diane Lennard: That's definitely true. I had a similar experience when I went to, there were two arts high schools, one of them is very famous called, the one from the movie “Fame”. It was the High School of Performing Arts applied to that one for dance, and I applied to music and art, which was much more academic. 

I got into music and art for piano and voice, but I sang folk songs, rebellious teenage folk songs and in music and art they taught us opera. You know, I did the opera, but that wasn't my passion. 

What's interesting is now when I teach communication to business students, I am using all the vocal training that I got. And I'm not calling it voice training, but it is how to use your body and your voice. So all of what I learned, I'm applying to my current career.

Stephen Matini: How did you make the transition from, you know, the theater, the acting to what you're doing now, communication?

Diane Lennard: I always had an interest in teaching. I actually think, I'm not as much of an actress as I am a director and a teacher. So for years I supported myself by creating theater companies. 

So I would direct them in a play, but teach them how to act, come to my acting classes three days a week and will form a theater company and you'll perform. Which really appealed to my sensibility because they were learning and performing, not just ego performing. 

So I did that for a long time. I got a degree in teaching, a master's degree in teaching. I was still teaching acting for non-actors in a theater school, but then I started coaching executives on their speech. It was actually Boston Consulting Group. 

They would have people come and learn how to tell stories and learn how ... we had a whole coaching program. Then I did it for my university on a pro bono basis while I was doing my PhD. And then they hired me. So it, it kind of evolved.

Stephen Matini: One of the paradigm shift that I see noticeable in people is when they understand that a good presentation is not about performing, but it's about being. And somehow that gives people the liberty of being themselves. Have you maybe noticed something similar?

Diane Lennard: Oh, absolutely. The way that I frame exactly what you're saying is it's a conversation. And what I notice is people who are trained in theaters sometimes have a hard time with that because they're so used to being performative that they're not really engaging and connecting with individuals. It's more that they're connecting with themselves. 

I work very hard on making sure they're not performing because for me, when someone's performing then the audience is just observing. It's a passive experience one way as opposed to a conversation, which is a dialogue. It goes back and forth. Even if the listener is not talking, they're engaged in a conversation. 

So I find that really fascinating and I actually much prefer the conversational mode to the performative mode unless I'm in a theater. But if I'm in a presentation, I don't want people performing. Although some students, I must say enjoy entertainment, but I'm not teaching entertainment. Nor are you, I would imagine.

Stephen Matini: I don't . To be in a conversation for some people is hard. It means to be vulnerable, it means to be permeable. How do you make it easy for people to get in the mode?

Diane Lennard: Having a purpose to their message when it becomes about the message and less about me getting them out of their heads, self-evaluating and focusing more on the other person. Actually, I feel like my mission in life is getting people to focus on the other person.

Stephen Matini: So listening...

Diane Lennard: Listening and paying attention, listening and observing. I think both.

Stephen Matini: The professor-student relationship is is a pretty interesting combination and often time is very layered. It means different things to different professors. How has this relationship contributed to you, to your own growth?

Diane Lennard: I certainly learn a lot from my students in terms of technology. Very often they say things and I go to my daughter privately after class and say, I just heard my students say this. Is that something I can say? Because they are privy to a whole slew of things that I'm not aware of. It's not part of my lifestyle. So I certainly learn from younger people. 

But I also gain a lot because I get to be myself and that models to them, it's okay to be yourself. Something I've noticed after years and years of teaching is more and more people are saying, I wanna be funny, I wanna make people laugh. And my point of view is that people are funny when they don't tell jokes just because by being themselves, they're funny. And I think what I tried to do, I do my best at is be myself so they can be themselves. It's permission.

Stephen Matini: God, that being funny is hard.

Diane Lennard: Yes. And it's certainly not something I teach, although I did watch this show called Comedians Getting Coffee ...

Stephen Matini: In Cars. Yeah, yeah,

Diane Lennard: In Cars ... yeah. And I found that fascinating to listen to comedians philosophy and points of view. It's very specific and it's really an art form and I respect it. And I also think comedians are very, very good communicators. They know how to pause, they know how to emphasize, they know how to express, they know how to get a reaction. Whether it's think about this or laugh at this, I think they're wonderful. Good comedians are wonderful communicators.

Stephen Matini: I think it's a special skill that some people seem to have. I think sometimes I can be funny, but if I try to be funny it would be a disaster. It would be horrible. 

I wanna ask you about the students. Some people, particularly now the workplace is filled with the different generations and so there's a lot of talk about generational gap. Do you think, is there such a thing as a generational gap from a communication standpoint?

Diane Lennard: Absolutely. Yes. Last night I, I do some faculty consulting at, at our university. What I do is I observe classes and then I give feedback to the professor on whatever they're interested in learning about their class. 

Last night I sat in on a three hour Zoom class. It was an online class. The professor had never used breakout rooms, was totally unaware of what he could do to engage his audience and basically lectured for three hours. 

Now this professor was even older than I am and made no bones about, I don't like remote, but I'm going to do the class the way I always do. He thought he was being funny. I would say out of 60 students, 45 of them had their cameras off. We don't even know if they were in the classroom. It was an astonishing experience of generational disconnect. And I felt badly for the students because they appreciate it, I’m sure they respect this professor and learn something, but they could certainly learn more. 

The professor was saying to me, oh, I like it much better in person. Well of course, but he's not in person. It's time to go with the changes. So yes, I think there can be resistance to change and there can be huge generational conflicts. Part of the, that's what I was trying to say before that I learned from the students. I knew I had to do remote, so I had to learn it. 

I mean, I'm always learning something new because largely because of technology at this point, now we have to contend with AI (artificial intelligence), how do we wanna deal with that? So there's always something to learn and I love that. But yes, an answer to your question, yes, there are generational differences.

Stephen Matini: When I hear people saying that in person works, versus digital, I could not disagree more, because I think if you have a difficult audience, that doesn't care, it's the same in both medium and realistically, there are pros and cons in both medium. What has been your experience about digital versus in person communication?

Diane Lennard: For many, many years I resisted digital because thought incorrectly that I couldn't do the kind of coaching I do, which involves the whole body and the voice speech coaching, unless I was in person, but I've been doing it remotely and I, it's different, but it can be done just with awareness, exactly what you just said. 

You have to learn how to manage being on a screen. I just finished writing a whole book called “Humanizing the Remote Experience.” It actually talks about many of the challenges, but then there are ways to overcome them. 

And the book is less about teaching techniques, but more about what happens to the brain when we're not in person. And there are a lot of challenges, but there are also a lot of strategies for addressing them. But I think for some people it's so different that they haven't and it's necessary because it's not going away. It's necessary to adapt.

Stephen Matini: I also want to ask you, you studied even your book, you talk about a lot about leadership, you know, leadership development and how communication can play a huge role for effective leaders. What would you say that is the some of the most important things as of today for leaders to keep in mind?

Diane Lennard: I would say empathy even more so because people are remote. So showing that you care about other people. This gets back to my mission in life, which is focusing on the other people, but understanding where other people are working with that, creating shared purpose and values really matters because if people are gonna follow your lead, they have to want to, they're not going to, unless you show that you also care about them and you have common purpose. And so I think empathy and understanding social sensitivity is really important. And this used to be called a soft skill, but now I think it's an essential skill.

Stephen Matini: A lot of people struggling and talking about executives or people they're transitioning more and more and more in a leadership position is the fact that for years their worry was about this quarter, the numbers, have to make sure that everything works fine. And then as you step into leadership position, you become more of a people connoisseur, you know? So the transition is really hard and a lot of people are put in a leadership position thinking they're gonna do well, but it's a completely different type of job. Do you think that empathy is something that can be actually taught?

Diane Lennard: In the process of writing this book I learned something that to me really had an impact about empathy. That there are two different kinds of empathy, and one kind is called affective empathy. So it's, I feel your pain, you actually feel what the other person is feeling, but there's another kind, and I think that I use this kind more and it's called cognitive empathy, where I understand what you're feeling, I understand where you're coming from, your perception, your perspective, but you don't necessarily have to feel it yourself. And so yes, I think you can get more and more attuned to it.

Stephen Matini: By observing people, as you said before.

Diane Lennard: By observing and paying attention to who they are.

Stephen Matini: So if someone has always been very task oriented and we are asking the person to be more people oriented, some people probably would do it, other people could be more resistant. And the company now says, well, so far you've been really operational, now you have to stop being this operational, you have to become really leader. 

You have been so used to just worry about numbers and that's it. But you have to understand that from now on, people mostly are gonna look at what you do. You have to set the example, you can ask people anything, but you have to be able to behave in a way that is consistent with your ask. Otherwise people are not gonna follow you.

Diane Lennard: On a simple level, I experienced this with a lot of young people, my own children who are adult children, even my husband at the time. When you're very good at what you do, then you're promoted to a managerial level. That's a different set of skills because on the one hand you do your area of expertise, but then all of a sudden you have direct reports and you're responsible for people. 

I recall with my own daughter when that happened to her earlier on in her career, we would spend many nights on the phone talking about strategies of dealing with difficult people situations. And it got to the point over time that she got really good at it and now loves it. But it was, it's a different skillset, just as you're saying. And that's why I think it's really important in university level that they're trained in these human-centered, what used to be called soft skills because you can't manage people unless you have some understanding of what matters.

Stephen Matini: There's not really a big correlation between possessing a certain trait or displaying a certain behavior and automatically gonna be a great leader. Somehow, some people are called in a leadership position, incredible leaders, and they are probably the last person that you would think in that position. Do you think that leadership can really be learned? Can you learn to be a leader?

Diane Lennard: Yes, yes, yes. I definitely think it can be taught. So there are two references that come to mind when you talk about this. One is a wonderful article, it's a short article in Harvard Business Review called “Leadership is a Conversation”. And I love that approach. 

There's another wonderful book “Leadership Can Be Taught”. It tracks a professor from the Harvard the Kennedy School of Public Service, which is part of Harvard on how he works with leaders. So those two things really had an impact on my thinking about leadership being taught. 

And also I audited a wonderful class at NYU Stern School of Business called “Leadership”. This professor, and his name is Kablas Warren, professor Klablas Warren. He has a cab's model of leadership and it's three E's. The first E is envision, the second is engage, which is really about communication. And the third E is empower. 

First you have the vision, then you communicate it, and then you make sure it gets done. His course is very interesting cuz he looks at the biography of leaders who you wouldn't expect to be leaders. What happened early in their lives that got them to the point of being a leader in the time that they led? Because it's often in context, you know, the time, the country. 

And he, he goes through biography after biography and it's absolutely fascinating. So these different readings have taught me that it is a skillset that can be taught.

Stephen Matini: Why do you think these days there seem to be such a shortage of strong leadership in the world?

Diane Lennard: I'd have to really think about that. I don't know the answer to that. What do you, what do you think?

Stephen Matini: It's interesting because when I ask this question, when I ask people, who would you say is a good leader? Oftentimes people stay quiet. Sometimes people would point out amazing leaders of the past, but very, very rarely people point out someone that is a leader right now. 

First of all, it's a reality that changes really fast. So I think it would really challenge any leader, anyone, to keep up with this exponential variety of things. You know, it just takes a tweet of someone to change completely direction. I think it's really difficult. 

One of the questions that I received from employees all the time, we do not know where we are going and we are upset because they don't tell us. I truly believe it's so much harder now to be a leader than maybe it was in the past.

Diane Lennard: I definitely agree with you because, and I think technology is a big part of that. So part of training for leadership necessarily involves flexibility and adapting to change and paying attention to change. 

That's actually a big part of this teaching philosophy of leadership can be taught, is really almost looking down at the situation and seeing what is the context, what is going on, where is this? And really getting a view, a large macro view in order to be able to implement difficult change. 

So change is difficult and good leaders can see it and manage it. I think you, you hit it, that that feels really right to me. This morning I noticed a headline of an article about this particular woman (Mira Murati) who created ChatGPT, which is an AI tool and she's now the leader of AI because she created it. So it's not that she's leading everything, but she's leading that. 

And so let's say a leader of a corporation would have to be able to manage that and many, many other changes, leaders have to adjust to many, many changes. I mean, look what happened after Covid, now work is hybrid and that change of having some people come to work and some people not come to work, it's hugely different than it was a couple of years ago. So managing change is, is key.

Stephen Matini: And to be a leader, as you say, that is capable of seeing at the larger picture that it has a sensitivity to it, number of audiences, you know, stakeholders and issues is a very difficult thing to do.

Diane Lennard: I think responsible leadership, I believe that what it's referring to is being responsible to all stakeholders, as you just said, including the employees, the investors, the society at large. So that's a huge responsibility and it's really looking at a huge picture.

Stephen Matini: Based on your experience, what have you heard to be some of the biggest communication challenges of your clients?

Diane Lennard: Lack of confidence, who knows where it comes from? I mean, I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist, although a lot of coaching, communication coaching involves people's feelings about communicating. 

A simple example is when people inflect their voice up like that and they don't wanna come to an ending. Often that's because they keep talking and talking and talking and talking and I'm gonna keep talking and hopefully I'll hit it as opposed to, here's my point, get it. Just going for it and standing behind it, having conviction in it. 

And also standing in front of people because often people feel judged and evaluated and I'm not good enough. And all of these negative talk that has nothing to do with the message. So for me, getting people out of their heads and focused on the message, landing on the other person, it's really about the other person. That's a change because people think public speaking is about themselves. No, it's really about how effective they are with their audience.

Stephen Matini: If I don't feel confident, what would it be the very first step that I could take?

Diane Lennard: My particular approach to that is being behaviorally oriented. So thinking about what are you doing with your word choice? What are you doing with your body language and what are you doing with your voice? 

So rather than think, I wanna sound confident, what is your pace? Are you taking pauses? People don't know what to do with their hands, but if they're in conversation, their hands will move naturally. 

So rather than focus on the impression people have of themselves or others have of them, I focus on very specific behaviors and we work one at a time. Usually there's one turnkey. So for instance, if they slow down and this happens a lot, then their body language works, they're emphatic, or if they're conversational, their pitch changes and they're not monotone. So there are, there are certain things that are most important and they become the practice priorities.

Stephen Matini: You strike me as someone definitely very confident. Have you always been confident?

Diane Lennard: ? I'm not always confident. I'll confide in you. When people ask me to give a talk, I won't. I don't like giving, I'm not an introvert at all because I really learn from talking. I'm not an egomaniac where I have to be seen and I have to be in front. I'm much more of a director. I like to organize things. I love a conversation like we're having. I think I'm confident in my message. Communication is extremely important, but it's about the message.

Stephen Matini: I'm exactly the same way. I don't, I don't like to be the center stage, but I love people, I love conversations and I love when you say the message. I express that concept by saying, if you have something dear to you, focus on this gift and I want to give to you. And that probably makes me look a confident or effective. The minute that I start thinking about myself and people looking at me, that would be not fun, you know?

Diane Lennard: Exactly. Mm-hmm. exactly the same. So one of the ways I get people to focus out is the more you focus on the other person, the less you're thinking and judging yourself. And I love that. That's part of what I love about teaching. A hundred percent of my attention is on them. I am really not judging myself. I'm focused on accomplishing what I want them to learn in that particular class.

Stephen Matini: The name of the podcast is Pity Party Party over, which means “enough is enough”. Enough with this whole feeling awful, let's move on. When, if, you hit a rough spot and you feel in a moment that you are low for whatever the reason, is there anything specific you do to get out of the funk?

Diane Lennard: Yeah, I mean, and now you're making me have a little epiphany. I am a very action oriented person, so I spend very little time way down. I've been divorced twice. Those were way down times. But other than that, I don't spend a lot of time pitying because I believe in action. Yeah, I think that that's my strategy and that may be why I appear confident because once I make up my mind to do something, I do it. 

And I'm pretty conscientious and maybe verging on obsessive compulsive. If I promise to do something, I'm gonna do it. But I am action oriented. I like to think, but I'd much rather take action. But I thoroughly enjoy the thinking. But my first impulse is to take an action. And I think that's from theater training because it's a very much about doing, you don't just think about a character, you be it.

Stephen Matini: I always say keep putting a foot in front of the other. Then eventually you're gonna get somewhere, you know? Yes. And I've always been that way and, and maybe, yes, I have to say that theater must have something to do with it because in theater you have to keep going and so you can stop, sorry!

Diane Lennard: There's this show called whose, a television show called, “Whose Line Is it Anyway”, and it's about improvisation. There's a technique called “yes and” so whatever's given to you, like if someone sort starts acting like a pink elephant, you can't say no, don't do that. You just have to go with that and move forward. 

I never thought of it before, why I'm so action oriented. But I do think that theater may have contributed to it. I don't think it's the only thing. I do believe without being a psychologist that a lot of this starts from childhood and what you needed to do in your family dynamic. In my family, I had to pay a lot of attention. I had to observe and be really sensitive to what was going on in the moment. Nothing really harmful, but it was just in my best interest to do that.

I've had years and years and years of practice observing behavior. Even before I got way involved in theater, seeing things and listening to things is what I know how to do. Left to my devices, I had to take action. Like I, I learned that it was up to me. And so I became very action oriented. 

We really are as a human species focused on survival first and foremost. And that that book, “Humanizing The Remote Experience” starts with that. What are our basic human needs? Our human needs are to feel safe and comfortable to experience understanding of what's around us and people. And the third is to feel a sense of belonging. We need those things and we do what it takes to make that happen.

Stephen Matini: If you had to say, what is the heart of our conversation, what would you say that is?

Diane Lennard: I would say it's about being human-centered. I know that's very non-specific, but I think everything we touched on addressed people. The focus of leadership, the focus of communication, it thinking about the human fir in the center. The center is the person. 

I used to teach a course called Foundations of Business Coaching. So I was teaching potential leaders or emerging leaders, emerging managers, how to take a coaching approach, which is really working with people. And many of their cultures were not coaching oriented. They were much more command and control oriented. 

Because people are people, if you take a coaching approach, let's say different than the the organizational culture, people will respond. They'll want to work with you. So I think even within a system that doesn't have the same approach, you can deal with people in a human centered way and it will work because people respond to similar things.

Stephen Matini: That is true.

Diane Lennard: And I, and I think it's important to do it even though it's different than the culture. And if it's that different, then it's maybe not a good place to be. 

The more you pay attention to another person, the more they feel good about themselves and bottom line, what everybody wants is to be seen and to be heard. So I think it's about observing and listening that gives people what they want, it respects them and it treats people with dignity. And I think we need to do that. We need to do that.

Stephen Matini: Diane, thank you so much for these wonderful words. I think they're going to warm the hearts and the souls and the, the intuition of a lot of people.

Diane Lennard: Thank you so much. It was such a pleasure talking with you.

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