What if the fat in your butter, cheese, or even burger could be made without animals, without plants, without fermentation, and without agriculture at all? That’s exactly what Savor is doing. Using a groundbreaking process that transforms compounds like CO₂ and elements like hydrogen into rich, animal-free fats that can mimic what animal fat does, this California-based startup is rethinking how we produce and consume one of the most essential ingredients in food.

In this episode, I sit down with Kathleen Alexander, cofounder and CEO of Savor, to dive into the science behind their innovative fat production, why alternative fats could be the next big breakthrough in food tech, and how their approach could help fight climate change while making all types of foods, including plant-based meats and dairy, taste even better.

So far the company has raised more than $30 million in venture capital, including from Bill Gates, and is now gearing up to start selling its new fat in restaurants and bakeries within 2025.

Will humanity be able to divorce food production from agriculture? If Savor succeeds, that just might be the case. 

Discussed in this episode

• Katheeen co-authored the paper Food Without Agriculture.

• Savor was incubated by Orca Sciences.

• Our past episode with Pivot Bio president Lisa Nunez Safarian.

• Kathleen and Paul both recommend Alchemy of Air and Not the End of the World.

• Kathleen recommends Long Life, Honey in the Heart.

• Smitsonian story on Savor’s technology.

More about Kathleen Alexander

Kathleen Alexander has a strong background in materials science and engineering. She has worked in various roles, including as a CTO and CEO at Savor, a Project Director at Orca Sciences, and a Climate Solutions Consultant at KCA Research, Inc. Kathleen has a proven track record of designing and implementing innovative projects for climate solutions, with a focus on greenhouse gas reduction technologies. She has also conducted extensive research and modeling in the field of materials science, particularly in areas related to electrochemistry and battery performance. Kathleen's academic background includes a PhD in Materials Science & Engineering from Massachusetts Institute of Technology, further showcasing her expertise in the field.

We spend about 90 percent of our lives indoors, yet the air inside our homes and offices is often far more polluted than the air outside. Volatile organic compounds—better known as VOCs—are constantly emitted by furniture, cleaning products, and even the very walls around us. Formaldehyde, benzene, toluene—these chemicals sound like something you’d find in an industrial park, but they’re actually in the places where we eat, sleep, and work. 

Well, what if nature could give us a hand here? What if plants, and even microbes, could be supercharged to clean our air at a level that truly makes a difference? That’s exactly the mission of today’s guest: Patrick Torbey, CEO and co-founder of Neoplants. His company is using synthetic biology to enhance houseplants and their soil microbes with built-in air purification superpowers. 

Right now, they are offering microbial powders called Power Drops to mix with water and sprinkle onto the soil of your own houseplants to super-charge their air purifying capacity. I already ordered mine and am using them now. 

They also offer Neo Px, which is their all-in-one plant and microbe duo, including a Marble Queen Pothos. 

The bottom line is that they claim their technology can make plants up to 30 times more effective at cleaning the air in our homes and offices than the plants we currently have today.  Their systems don’t just filter air pollution but actually metabolize it into harmless compounds.

In this episode, Patrick and I have a wide-ranging conversation about topics like synthetic biology, science fiction, nature vs. nurture, and of course, how his company’s tech will both make money and make the world a better place. Already the company has raised more than $20 million in venture capital, with more still yet to come. 

So, if you’ve ever wondered how science, business, and sustainability can come together to solve a problem hiding in plain sight—or in this case, plain smell—you won’t want to miss this conversation. 

Discussed in this episode

• You can order Neoplants’ microbes for your houseplants’ soil here.

• Our past podcast episodes with Pivot Bio (nitrogen-enhancing microbes) and Living Carbon (rapid-growth trees).

• Patrick discussed how reading Cosmos changed his life. There was also a 1980 TV Series by Sagan called Cosmos and an updated remake in 2014 by Neil deGrasse Tyson.

• Patrick discusses how China is planting forests outside cities to improve air quality.

• Patrick recommends reading science fiction, leading Paul to recommend a book he recently read, Childhood's End by Arthur C. Clarke.

More about Patrick Torbey

Patrick Torbey is the co-founder and CEO of Neoplants, a Paris-based synthetic biology startup, engineering plants’ genomes and microbiomes to have a positive impact on the air we breathe. Patrick has a PhD in genetic editing from ENS Paris, his expertise spans molecular biology, biotechnology, and entrepreneurship. He drove Neoplants R&D efforts for many years as CTO, and is now leading the company. Patrick is passionate about taking the “fi” out of “sci-fi.” He is fascinated by the potential of deep technologies to change the world for the better, and convinced that we need more and better GMOs to face the challenges of today in a sustainable way.

It’s no secret that the alternative protein startups are struggling these days. A combination of lower revenue, intense competition, and less available venture capital is leading to a contraction in the sector, with countless alt-meat and dairy companies conducting layoffs, declaring bankruptcy, and even folding altogether. 

Enter Ahimsa Companies, a newly formed investment group acquiring promising but distressed plant-based brands. This isn’t charity, though. Ahimsa's belief is that, with their consolidation strategy and pooled resources, these brands that are built on a strong underlying product can become profitable under the Ahimsa umbrella.

As Ahimsa CEO Matt Tullman says in this conversation, pendulums swing, and many of these companies can be brought to profitability, meaning they could ultimately be sold at a much higher price than their valuation during this period in which plant-based products are in the valley.

So far the company has acquired Wicked Foods, Simulate’s Nuggs, Blackbird Pizza, an Ohio plant-based foods manufacturing plant, and more. 

Matt is a man of many talents, as you’ll hear in this episode. In addition to being CEO of Ahimsa Companies, he founded and sold his own education tech company, and is also the co-founder and CEO of Outlier Health, the parent company of supplement company Complement and of No Meat Athlete. He’s both a missionary for plant-based lifestyles and a mercenary seeking to combine his passion for plant-based foods with profit. 

Discussed in this episode

• Ahimsa Companies is looking for plant-based startups to acquire. Here’s an analysis of their strategy and history.

• Interview with Matt in which he describes Ahimsa’s goal by declaring that “we’ve got to step up and try to help these companies survive.”

• Story about Ahimsa’s acquisition of the Plant Plant in Ohio. 

• Both Paul and Matt are interested in AI’s potential to enable human-nonhuman communication, something Noa Weiss discussed on a past episode.

• Matt recommends reading both The Hard Thing about Hard Things and The Surrender Experiment.

• Matt also recommends Paul Graham’s essay, Do Things That Don’t Scale.

More about Matt Tullman

Matt is the co-founder and Group CEO of the Ahimsa Companies – a private equity firm acquiring and operating best-in-class plant-based food and manufacturing companies. He is also the co-founder and CEO of Outlier Health, the parent company of  Complement and No Meat Athlete, which have served nearly 13 million people just in the past three years. He’s also an investor in health/food/bev startups, and a contributor to Inc. Magazine.  Previously Matt founded a ed-tech firm that was ultimately acquired by Stride Education (NYSE: LRN). Matt is most proud of bootstrapping a business that was named to the Inc. 500 list of fastest growing companies in 2021. He has dedicated his career to growing nutrition-first health companies to help catalyze the movement to a plant-based lifestyle for the mainstream consumer.

Did you know that it takes 140 liters of water to make a single cup of coffee? Turns out that coffee, as far as plant crops are concerned, has a fairly heavy footprint on the planet. And it’s getting harder to farm, with climate change altering where and how many coffee beans can even be grown.

You’ve heard of making meat without chickens, and milk without cows. Well, you can also now get coffee without beans.

This episode’s guest is the CEO of Minus, a startup reimagining how you enjoy your daily brew. Minus has developed an innovative way to replicate the rich flavor, aroma, and experience of coffee without using coffee beans at all. Minus’ beanless coffee emits 86% less carbon than traditional coffee, uses 94% less water and utilizes 92% less land.

Made from upcycled ingredients like date seeds and grape seeds, this alt-coffee is primarily marketed to women for reasons you’ll hear from CEO Maricel Saenz.

The traditional coffee industry is rife with challenges, from deforestation and water-intensive farming practices to the instability of supply chains caused by climate change. Minus aims to address these issues head-on with a sustainable, scalable alternative that delivers the same satisfying experience without the environmental baggage.

We’ll explore the science behind beanless coffee, the startup’s journey from concept to reality, and the potential impact of this bold innovation on coffee lovers and the planet. Whether you’re a caffeine connoisseur or just curious about how cutting-edge food tech is reshaping our world, this conversation is one you won’t want to miss.

Discussed in this episode

• You can buy Minus coffee from their website.

• Maricel recommends the Y Combinator Startup Library.

• Maricel also recommends reading Regnesis.

• Our past episodes on chocolate without farming cocoa and bean-free coffee.

More about Maricel Saenz

Maricel Saenz is a Costa Rican entrepreneur living in California with a strong passion for sustainability and innovation. She is the founder and CEO of Compound Foods, a food-tech startup that aims to reduce supply chains and food waste while creating sustainable and valuable products through fermentation. The company's first product, Minus, uses a beanless approach to reduce the negative environmental impact of coffee production and ensure a sustainable supply for the future. Maricel holds a Bachelor of Commerce from the University of British Columbia and attended Singularity University's Global Solutions Program in 2017. She has a diverse background, having previously co-founded Nextbiotics, a synthetic biology startup that addressed antibiotic resistance. She has also worked in international development in South Africa and Cambodia, empowering women and working with local entrepreneurs. Maricel has also worked with Monitor Deloitte in corporate strategy and innovation consultancies.In recognition of her accomplishments and innovative thinking, Maricel was named on the 2022 Forbes' 30 under 30 list. Her work in sustainability and food-tech is making a positive impact on the planet and inspiring others to think creatively about how to reduce waste and create sustainable solutions.

In this episode we’re diving deep into the fascinating world of carbon recycling with a trailblazer who’s reshaping how we think about waste and sustainability.

Our guest is Dr. Jennifer Holmgren, CEO of LanzaTech—a company on a mission to transform our biggest environmental challenge into an economic opportunity. LanzaTech is pioneering a process that takes industrial emissions—the kind of harmful gases that typically contribute to climate change—and recycles them into valuable products like fuels, fabrics, and everyday consumer goods.

The concept might sound like science fiction, but it’s already science fact. LanzaTech’s technology captures carbon emissions from sources like steel mills, refineries, and even municipal solid waste, then feeds those emissions to specially engineered microbes. These microbes act like tiny factories, converting carbon pollution into useful materials. Imagine jet fuel made from industrial waste or yoga pants created from captured carbon—it’s not just possible; it’s happening. In fact, at the very end of 2024, LanzaTech received a holiday gift from the federal government: a $200 million award from the Dept. of Energy.

In this episode, Jennifer and I discuss the path LanzaTech took, including raising $400 million and taking 13 years prior to commercializing its first product. We also touch on her personal journey from her birth in Colombia to her taking the helm at LanzaTech.

As you’ll hear, this isn’t just about reducing emissions; it’s about completely rethinking the role of waste in our economy. LanzaTech’s vision is one where carbon is no longer a liability but an asset—a resource that can be reused and recycled, over and over again. It’s a powerful example of how businesses can align profitability with purpose, and it’s precisely the kind of story that inspires hope in these challenging times.

So, whether you’re an entrepreneur, an environmentalist, or just someone curious about the future of our planet, this is a conversation you won’t want to miss. 

Discussed in this episode

• Jennifer recommends reading Quiet by Susan Cain.

• LanzaTech awarded up to $200 million in federal cash from the DOE

• LanzaTech is backed by Khosla Ventures.

More about Jennifer Holmgren, PhD

Dr. Jennifer Holmgren is CEO of LanzaTech. Under her guidance, LanzaTech is developing a variety of platform chemicals and fuels, including the world’s first alternative jet fuel derived from industrial waste gases. Given her integral role in the development of this alternative jet fuel, she is also a Director and the Chair of the LanzaJet Board of Directors. 

Prior to LanzaTech, Jennifer was VP and General Manager of the Renewable Energy and Chemicals business unit at UOP LLC, a Honeywell Company. While at UOP, she was a key driver of UOP’s leadership in low carbon aviation biofuels, and under her management, UOP technology became instrumental in producing nearly all the initial fuels used by commercial airlines and the military for testing and certification of alternative aviation fuel.

Jennifer is the author or co-author of 50 U.S. patents and more than 30 scientific publications, and is a member of the National Academy of Engineering. In 2003, she was the first woman awarded the Malcolm E. Pruitt Award from the Council for Chemical Research (CCR). In 2010, she was the recipient of the Leadership Award from the Civil Aviation Alternative Fuels Initiative (CAAFI). In 2015, Jennifer and her team at LanzaTech were awarded the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Presidential Green Chemistry Award, and she was awarded the BIO Rosalind Franklin Award for Leadership in Industrial Biotechnology. Jennifer was named as #1 of the 100 most influential leaders in the Bioeconomy in 2017 and received the Global Bioenergy Leadership Award in 2018, and the 2020 William C. Holmberg Award for Lifetime Achievement in the Advanced Bioeconomy. In 2021, she received the Edison Achievement Award and the Prix Voltaire Award. In 2022, she was included in ICIS’s Top 40 Power Players ranking. Jennifer also has an honorary doctorate from Delft University of Technology.

Jennifer is on the Governing Council for the Bio Energy Research Institute in India. The institute was set up by the DBT (Department of Biotechnology, Indian Government) and IOC (Indian Oil Corporation).  She also sits on the Advisory Council for the Andlinger Center for Energy and the Environment at Princeton University, the National Academies’ Board on Energy and Environmental Systems (BEES), the External Advisory Committee for the Advanced Energy Technologies Directorate (AET) at Argonne National Laboratory, the Advisory Council for the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory (PNNL), the Halliburton Labs Advisory Board, the Universiti Teknologi PETRONAS International Advisory Council, and the Founder Advisory for The Engine, a venture capital fund built by MIT that invests in early-stage science and engineering companies. 

Jennifer holds a B.Sc. degree from Harvey Mudd College, a Ph.D. from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and an MBA from the University of Chicago.

In this episode we’re taking you on a journey to some of the most remote corners of West Africa, where energy access is scarce, and innovation is changing lives.

Our guest is Nicole Poindexter, the founder and CEO of Energicity, a company that's bringing clean, reliable solar power to off-grid communities in countries like Sierra Leone, Benin, and Liberia. Nicole and her team are doing something extraordinary: building solar mini-grids that provide electricity to tens of thousands of people who otherwise rely on polluting and expensive energy sources—or have no power at all. And, impressively, Energicity is doing all of this while making a profit, already being an EBITDA-positive company. 

In our conversation, Nicole shares how she transitioned from a background in finance—after an Ivy League education—to founding Energicity in 2015, driven by her vision to end energy poverty. We dive into how solar mini-grids are more than just a source of light—they’re catalysts for economic growth, education, and health improvements in communities that have often been ignored. Nicole also talks candidly about the challenges of working in rural Africa, from financing to infrastructure to cultural dynamics, and how she tackles these head-on.

One part of this conversation that resonated with me and I think will with a lot of founders is when Nicole says she takes to heart the saying: “Those who know how work for those who know why.” So many people see a problem, and because they don’t know how to solve it, they don’t act. Nicole makes it clear that if you surround yourself with smart people of whom you can ask many questions, combining those who know how with those who know why can really lead to transformational results.

So, if you’re ready to get inspired by a trailblazer who’s proving that business can indeed be a force for good, stay tuned for this enlightening conversation with Nicole Poindexter.

Discussed in this episode

• Nicole was employed at Opower when it IPOed.

• TechCrunch on Energicity’s work.

• Energicity has raised $10 million so far, and is seeking to raise another $30 million.

• Nicole recommends reading Atomic Habits and Dare to Lead.

• She also recommends checking out Entrepreneurs for Impact.

• Our past episode with African clean energy startup I-G3N.

More about Nicole Poindexter

From starting her career as investment banker, Nicole Poindexter has had a variety of leadership roles in finance, government, and business. Prior to her founding Energicity Corp, she was an early employee at OPower prior to its successful IPO and subsequent sale to Oracle, founding and growing the business development team. In that role, she brought together the skills of an operator and software product development with sensitivity to energy customer needs delivering USD 10’s of millions in revenue for the company. She was inspired to start Energicity Corp both due to her deep seated commitment to developing renewable sources of energy and also her passionate desire to create economic opportunity for some of the world’s poorest people through energy access.

Most plant-based meats in the US have centered around American staples like hamburgers, hot dogs, chicken nuggets, and sausages. But there’s a world of meat consumption out there, and some of the most popular meat dishes are ones many Americans may have never even tried.

In recent years, South Korea has seen great success exporting its culture around the world, with mega-popular K-dramas like Squid Game and The Parasite, K-pop like BTS, and yes, K-food like bibimbap. Now, South Korean plant-based meat player UNLIMEAT is bringing its twist on K-meat to thousands of US supermarkets. Already, the company’s Korean-style alt-meats have been sold throughout Asia, including at Starbucks, Subway, Domino’s, and more. And since they broke into the US market with a giant Times Square ad in 2022, the company is now making inroads into the American diet.

With Korean-themed frozen products like bulgogi, pulled pork, and kimbap tuna, the company is betting that Americans will welcome new alt-meat offerings into their homes.

In this episode, we talk with UNLIMEAT Co-CEO Ryan Chung, who’s in charge of the American market for the young and growing company. While the brand was started in 2019, they’ve already raised well over $20 million USD, built a factory in Korea, and are shipping around the world. 

As you’ll hear, we discuss the challenges plant-based meat is facing these days and what might be done to overcome them, along with predictions for what the meat market may look like in 15 years. It’s a compelling conversation with a leader in the space who’s seeking to change the face of the alt-meat movement as we know it. 

Discussed in this episode

• Ryan recommends reading The Innovators

• Paul recommends reading Quirky, whose author Melissa Schilling is a past guest on this show!

• Paul’s photo of Quorn being marketed as essentially price parity with chicken in a London KFC.

• UNLIMEAT’s partnership with Just Egg

• UNLIMEAT is available at Sprouts, Giant, Albertsons, on Amazon, and more.

More about Ryan Chung

Ryan Chung is a Co-CEO at UNLIMEAT, where Ryan also holds the titles of Head of International and Chief Strategy Officer. Ryan previously served as the Chief Operating Officer at BriteBelly and YBRAIN. He also worked at Tesla, handling various aspects of business operations. Ryan has a background in M&A from roles at Samsung NEXT and PwC, encompassing due diligence, post-deal value capture, and divestiture planning. With industry experience in technology, automotive, industrials, aerospace & defense, and consumer sectors, Ryan's expertise in operational strategy, new product development, and strategic analysis is well-rounded. Ryan holds an MBA from the University of Virginia Darden School of Business and a BA in Economics, International Relations, and Business Administration from Boston University.

Imagine trying to run a small business without a constant supply of energy. With electricity intermittency, you may not have access to wifi, a phone, a computer, a way to service your customers and more. One way to solve this problem is to have constant access to fossil fuels to run diesel generators, but this is an expensive and dirty way to operate, creating unsustainable costs for the business and the planet.

Enter I-G3N, a South African company specializing in the design and production of advanced lithium-ion battery storage solutions for residential, commercial, and industrial applications. Their batteries provide reliable, cost-effective energy storage to support renewable energy systems, reduce reliance on unstable grids, and address load-shedding challenges in South Africa. By enabling more effective use of solar and other renewable power sources, I-G3N plays a critical role in promoting energy independence, reducing carbon footprints, and fostering sustainable economic growth in a region where access to consistent power is a pressing need.

In this episode, we talk with I-G3N CEO and co-founder Sydney Phakathi about why he started the company, how he’s navigated and funded running a start-up in South Africa—including having him and his co-founders not taking a salary for nearly a year—and what kind of an impact the company’s making today.

Discussed in this episode

• Sydney recommends reading Unfair Fight.

• Standard Bank backs I-G3N in pioneering local battery production amidst energy challenges

• I-G3N secures R20m investment

• More on the renewable energy sector in Africa.

More about Sydney Phakathi

Sydney Phakathi is the CEO and co-founder of I-G3N, a South African company specializing in lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries for energy storage. With a focus on addressing South Africa's persistent energy challenges, I-G3N provides scalable battery solutions for homes, businesses, and industrial applications. Sydney, alongside his co-founders, has driven the company’s growth from its establishment in 2018 to a critical player in the renewable energy sector, emphasizing local manufacturing to mitigate the reliance on imports. The company has expanded its reach to other African markets, aiming to provide affordable and reliable energy solutions amid widespread power outages. Under his leadership, I-G3N has also championed youth empowerment, employing a predominantly young workforce and offering on-the-job training.

Eric Schulze loves the intersection of science and food so much that after many years as an FDA regulator, he decided in 2016 to leave the federal government to join the then-nascent Memphis Meats (now UPSIDE Foods). He’d go on to spend the next seven years working to advance the cultivated meat pioneer’s science, technology, communications, and ultimate regulatory approval by the agency for which he used to work.

Now, Eric’s charting a new path for himself, founding GoodHumans, a consultancy aimed at assisting and even launching biotech startups seeking to bring their new innovations to the world.

In this episode, Eric and I discuss the state of the cultivated meat movement today and where it may be heading. This includes the path to commercialization, the obituaries being written for the sector, the statewide sales bans on the product, and comparisons to other technologies. We even discuss our mutual love of sci-fi and give some recommendations to those of you fellow nerds out there. 

Eric’s a wealth of knowledge on all things alt-protein, so if you want both information and inspiration, listen to what he’s got to say.

Discussed in this episode

• Eric first learned about cultivated meat after the $18,000 meatball was unveiled in 2016.

• Our past episodes on this show with Uma Valeti and Teryn Wolfe, the latter of whom Eric has jointly launched a new company, Nexture Bio.

• Eric is a big fan of British physicist David Deutsch 

• Eric recommends reading The Science of Science (nonfiction) along with fiction such as The Name of the Wind, Three Body Problem, and The Maniac.

• Paul recommends Tender is the Flesh (fiction) and Frostbite (nonfiction). He also wrote a review of some 19th century animal protection literature recently. 

• Both Eric and Paul liked the films Gattaca and Elysium.

More about Eric Schulze, PhD

Eric Schulze, PhD is a professional molecular biologist, genetic engineer, and former federal biotechnology regulator, and most recently is the CEO of GoodHumans, a full-service strategy and design firm. He served as Vice President of Product and Regulation at UPSIDE Foods, where he led both design and development of the company’s meat products as well as its regulatory-, policy-, and government affairs. Before that, he served as a U.S. Food and Drug Administration regulator, handling a portfolio of novel food and drug biotechnology products. As a civil servant, Dr. Schulze also served as a federal STEM education policy capacity within the National Science Foundation and currently works with the National Academy of Sciences on undergraduate STEM education transformation. He holds a doctorate in genetic, cellular, and molecular biology with a specialty in embryonic stem cell engineering and is trained in broadcast communication, speechwriting, and risk assessment.

We all know chocolate is sweet. The way that it’s made—not so much. 

From deforestation and climate change to child labor and heavy metal contamination, cocoa farming leaves a lot to be desired. 

But what if we could make cocoa powder without having to chop down the rainforest and engage in so many other unsavory practices? That’s what California Cultured is working on now.

The Davis, California-based startup has raised $16 million to grow cocoa cells inside of bioreactors and has already produced some pretty tasty chocolate from this process, as I can personally attest.

This isn’t their CEO Alan Perlstein’s first shot at growing food inside of bioreactors. As you’ll hear in this episode, Alan was part of the team that a quarter century ago grew the world’s first-ever cultivated meat (goldfish cells funded by NASA). He went on to found Miraculex—now Oobli—which grows sweet proteins inside of bioreactors. After running the company for six years, he’s now embarked on a journey to divorce cocoa production from farming the rainforest, and he shares that story here.

Can they compete on cost with farmed cocoa? How long before their cocoa makes its way onto the market? Most importantly, does it taste as good as the chocolate we eat today? These are all questions we bite into—and more—in this conversation!

Discussed in this episode

• Our past episodes with the RAND Corporation and Oobli. 

• Our World in Data greenhouse gas emission chart showing chocolate similar to beef.

• Alan endorses starting your company through SOSV.

• California Cultured signs agreement with Japanese chocolate giant.

• Cocoa consumption’s effect on muscle synthesis. 

More about Alan Perlstein

Alan Perlstein is a visionary entrepreneur with over 20 years of experience in the food technology industry. From his early career in one of the first cell-cultured meat labs to founding California Cultured, Alan has consistently pursued sustainable innovations to solve global food production issues. His passion lies in addressing the environmental and ethical challenges of traditional agriculture by using cutting-edge plant cell culture technology to create real chocolate and coffee without the harmful impacts of deforestation, child labor, and toxic chemicals.