Program transcript:

Grant Reeher: Welcome to the Campbell Conversations. I'm Grant Reeher. Last week on the program, during my conversation with Lauren Hall, I mentioned that I'd be speaking this week with a writer that she invoked in making her arguments. That writer is Musa al-Gharbi and his new book is titled, “We Have Never Been Woke: The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite.” Mr. al-Gharbi is a professor at Stony Brook University's School of Communication and Journalism. Professor al-Gharbi, welcome to the program and congratulations on the book. It's making quite a splash.

Musa al-Gharbi: Yeah, it's great to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

GR: I appreciate you making the time, I know you've been really busy with this. So let me just start with a term clarification and we'll go from there. So, “woke” obviously has become a contentious term. How are you using that?

MaG: Yeah. So one way I don't use it in the book is as a pejorative. So I don't use woke as a way of denoting anything bad. In fact, one of the things I do in the book is I usually put the term, I often put the term, “woke” in quotation marks to signal the point that it's a contentious term. I don't define the term in the book. I think that it's kind of an error that people often make, or they think that you need a crisp analytic definition in order to talk about something sensibly. So, for instance, in my interpersonal communication class, a thing that I do often is I'll have my students define apple. I'll say provide for me, please, the necessary and sufficient conditions for apple that include 100% of apples, exclude everything else, and that's not toxicological. So you can't say like, it's the genus x, the species y because that's just saying an apple is an apple. So we'll spend like 20 minutes in class with 30 people because like 30 intelligent people who know English and know what apples are, and we'll spend 20 minutes in class and it turns out it's actually really hard to define apple. Now that doesn't mean they don't know what apples are, that if I go tell them, hey, grab me an apple, they're going to hand me a fish or they're going to give me a chair. And so there's just this error that often happens in the discourse where people want some kind of clean, crisp analytic definition and then they haggle about the analytic definition instead of the actual thing they want to talk about. And if you don't provide an analytic definition, they go, aha, therefore you don't know what you're talking about, you're not referring to anything, it's just a moral panic. And that's a ridiculous way to understand language. That's just not the way language works, in my opinion. So in the book, I don't do that game. What I do instead is I provide a history of the term, “woke” and some of the different ways that people have come to use it, the trajectory of the term over time, and show how you can actually get a lot of insight into what people mean about woke and a lot of the contestation around the term woke by looking at a predecessor term, “political correctness,” which was a term that was previously used to mark out basically the same set of phenomena. And then I provide some examples of views and dispositions and things like this that, when people talk about when people evoke the term woke, whether you're on the left or the right, there are a few things that people across the political and ideological spectrum would agree. Like if you reject this thing, you're certainly not woke and if you embrace this thing, you might be. So, for instance, the idea of trans-inclusive feminism. So if you reject feminism, you're definitely not woke. If you have a conception of feminism that excludes trans people that does not recognize trans women as women, you're not going to be considered either. So J.K. Rowling is an example of someone who self-identifies as a feminist but has a trans-exclusionary understanding of feminism. No one goes, oh, wow, J.K. Rowling is so woke. And so there's a bunch of these kinds of things that I walk through just to provide texture, I don't think they provide a definition. I don't think you need a definition, but just to provide some texture for what people seem to be talking about when they talk about, “wokeness.”

GR: Okay, great. I appreciate the point you're making there, but I did want to ask you a question where you do use the term and it's the title of one of your chapters. You write about great “awokenings” and by the way, I thought that was a great play on words, very clever. But as a way to sort of get at what there is and you mentioned political correctness. What are some of the most important maybe one or two sort of, “awokening” moments that you've discussed?

MaG: Yes. So in a nutshell, a great awokening is a period of rapid change in how a knowledge economy professionals talk and think about social justice. So looking at a lot of empirical measures, you can see that after 2010 there was this big shift. The kinds of research and reporting we put out changed a lot. It grew more political, more focused on race, gender and sexuality. Entertainment outputs, if you look at the way we answer questions in polls and surveys, if you look at political protest activity or things like this, you can see that something changed after 2010. And I show in the book that in the 20th century, so in the previous century there are three previous periods of awokening. There was one in the 1920s to early 30s, one in the mid 60s through mid 70s, one in the late 80s and early 90s, that was the last time we had the blow-ups around PC culture and so on, and then the one that started after 2010. And I show that by comparing and contrasting these cases, we can get leverage on questions like, well, why did these periods of awokening happen at all, why do they end? Do they change anything, do they influence each other? And so that's the project of chapter two of the book.

GR: And so you write about then and you mentioned this already, but the heart of it is sort of breaking down this symbolic economy and this notion of symbolic capitalist, you mentioned the knowledge economy before. So just briefly, who are these people that are symbolic capitalists? What are some of the groups, academics obviously being one of them?

MaG: Yeah. So the “we” in “We Have Never Been Woke” is this constellation of folks I call symbolic capitalists. So a nutshell version, symbolic capitalists are people who make a living based on what they know, who they know and how they're known. So there are people who are not providing physical goods and services to people, but instead, they manipulate symbols and data and ideas and so on. So think people who work in the media, who work in arts and entertainment, people who work in finance or consulting or administration and H.R., people who work in education and things like this. So again, people who are who are not providing physical goods and services to people are symbolic capitalists, typically.

GR: You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher and I'm speaking with Musa al-Gharbi. He's a professor of communication and journalism at Stony Brook University, and we're discussing his new book titled, “We Have Never Been Woke.” So I want to get into some of your arguments now about these folks and one of the pieces that struck me as particularly powerful and that resonated is the critique that instead of revealing and laying bare the social processes and economic processes that produce and reinforce elites in elitism, a lot of the work of these symbolic capitalists actually obscures it. It makes it harder for the general public to understand. And that at the heart of it, this separation from the average person is part of the status. It's part of what makes these folks valuable. I'd just be interested to hear you discuss that piece a little bit.

MaG: Yeah. I mean, so one of the things that's interesting, if you look at the views and dispositions that people usually associate with wokeness, they're often in the name of the marginalized and the disadvantaged. So things like, a lot of the ways that we talk and think about race or gender or sexuality and so on. But what's striking is, in practice, these are not the ways that working-class people talk and think about the social world, these are not the languages of the trailer park or the global south or the hollowed-out suburb or anything like that. In fact, what I show in the book is that people who are from less advantaged backgrounds, less educated backgrounds, people who are immigrants and non-whites and religious minorities and so on, they're actually the slice of America that's least likely to subscribe to these views and to talk and think in these ways. And in fact, what you can see looking at the 2024 election, for instance, is if you look at which sectors of society have been moving towards the Democrats and which have been moving towards the Republicans. As the Democratic Party has been reoriented around symbolic capitalists and shifted a lot after 2010 because we shifted a lot. Highly educated, relatively affluent white people have shifted more towards Democrats. Meanwhile, racial and ethnic minorities, religious people, lower-income people, working-class people, less educated people have been shifting towards the Republican Party, which is to say the very people that we think of ourselves as allies to and advocates for, they're the people who have been driving the backlash against people like us.

GR: Yeah, I want to come back to that a little bit later in the conversation, but I would think that this book is going to figure in some of the conversations that are happening and will happen within the Democratic Party and thinking of this. But let me just push along this path here for another question or two. So would it be too much to say then, based on what you just said, that in terms of moving the needle on social justice concerns in a(n) actually meaningful way, that these folks claim to be animated by, that we claim to be animated by, that they're largely talking to themselves and justifying their status? I mean, is that too strong, is that too harsh?

MaG: No. In fact, I have a section in the book called, “Tempest in a Teacup,” which is in chapter four where I stress this point, actually. When you look at a whole bunch of data, we are increasingly talking to ourselves. So institutions, like media institutions like The New York Times are reaching an increasingly narrow slice of society. We're pretty much only, in journalism, we're increasingly writing just for other highly educated, relatively affluent, urban and suburban whites, basically. And you can see this kind of consolidation, this narrowing, this growing parochialism in a lot of symbolic economy institutions, in fact. And as a consequence of that, you see a growing disconnect in a lot of other sectors of this country, a perception that's growing for a lot of people in society that these institutions, symbolic economy institutions, don't represent people like them, that they don't have a voice or a stake in it, that the people who run these institutions don't respect them, don't care about their values and their interests and their priorities and so on. And this perception is not entirely inaccurate. But it is very damaging for the work that we do and for the legitimacy of us and our outputs and our institutions and so on.

GR: Why do you think, and I want to pursue this in a couple of different ways, but why do you think this group, the "we," I guess you and me are part of this group in a way, are resistant to this self-awareness?

MaG: Yeah. I mean, I think one of the issues is actually that we are, that the symbolic professions tend to select for people who are highly educated and cognitively sophisticated and so on. And you might think, well, oh, okay, well, there's all these really smart and well-educated people, so they must be really cued to the facts and be willing to change their minds and think objectively and so on. But as I showed in an article recently in my Substack and that I argue in the book as well, in a section called, “Disciplined Minds,” there's actually a lot of research in the cognitive and behavioral sciences that shows people who are highly educated and cognitively sophisticated are actually more prone to motivated reasoning, less likely to change their minds in accordance with the facts. Like our cognitive and perceptual systems are seem oriented in a deep way towards furthering our interests and advancing our goals. And so actually what you would expect to see and unfortunately what you do see in a lot of institutions that are, that select for people who are really smart and sophisticated and educated and so on, is that we are masters of motivated reasoning.

GR: (laughter) Masters of delusion.

MaG: And so this is one of the problems. And the other big problem is that a lot of the systems and institutions that we've set up, so like for instance, in journalism, you have this kind of adversarial relationship in principle, adversarial, collaborative relationship between editors and writers or in higher ed, you have all of these decisions that are supposed to be made by committees like for hiring and promotion or for admissions and things like this for peer review publications. And the idea is we all have kind of limitations and biases and by getting people with different values and perspectives and priorities kind of making these decisions together, we can produce something that's more objective and so on. Okay, it's great in principle. The problem is these systems only work as intended when we actually do have a lot of substantive diversity in terms of how people think and how people feel and what their interests are and what their backgrounds are in the world that we actually live in. The symbolic professions are increasingly dominated by this relatively narrow and strange slice of society. People who are highly educated, who are from relatively affluent backgrounds, who live in cities, who are politically liberal and identify with the Democratic Party. And in that kind of a thing, when you have this very narrow and idiosyncratic slice of society dominating these professions in a homogeneous way, a lot of these institutions that are supposed to correct our biases can actually exacerbate them. It can make it easy to have misinformation cascades. It can be harder for people who dissent from the dominant view to actually get their view out there because the gatekeepers shut it down. And you can see this, a lot of my own research has shown that because, for instance, almost all of us in journalism and academia are on the blue line of charts when we want to understand something that's bad, that we think of as bad, like political polarization, we don't start by going, well why are we so weird? How are we contributing to this problem? Where are Democrats going wrong? Our starting question or starting assumption is to assume that the red line is driving the thing that we think is bad, and we try to explain the thing that we think is bad by appeal to deficits or pathologies that are supposed to hold among the red line people. Those people on the red line must be racist, sexist, misogynistic, and so on. And you can see, and the striking thing is, I showed this in a lot of my talks some of which are available on the internet and I have a peer reviewed paper published on this. But you can see in a lot of the charts that we ourselves produce, like we'll produce a chart that clearly shows the blue line is driving the polarization, but the people producing the chart can't see their own data. And so the article, the actual body of the article is here's why the red line people are driving polarization, when you can just look at the charts and see that the blue line is the one that shifted first and more. But not only can the scholar not see it, but the editors can't see it, the people citing the work can't see it, the people sharing the work on social media can't see it because we're all on the blue line and we all assume it must be the red line so we can even produce data and charts ourselves that show that we're driving the problem and we literally can't see the thing. Once you point it out, you can't not see it. But it's hard to get anyone to see it to begin with, right? And so this is a big problem that we have for understanding a lot of social issues, how a lot of social problems come about and persist, who benefits from them and how, why a lot of things don't go the way that we want to would expect. It's because these institutions are dominated by really smart people who are good at motivated reasoning. And we're also really homogeneous in terms of our values and interests in politics and things like that. And so we just sit around agreeing with each other and talking about how everyone else is stupid most of the time, in a way that really interferes with our ability to understand why things are going wrong.

GR: You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher, and I'm talking with Musa al-Gharbi. He's a professor in the School of Communication and Journalism at Stony Brook University and the author of a new book titled, “We Have Never Been Woke: The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite.” I want to just pick up on what you were saying before the break. And I guess I'm going to give myself a pat on the back in terms of your book, because your description has resonated so strongly with experiences I've had and things that I have been trying to point out, but it's tough. If we have time at the end I may share a quick story with you and see what your reactions are. But I wanted to ask you this first, and you're obviously aware of this in writing this book, you have a good sense of history, but there have been many previous writers over the years that have come from some of the same places that you're coming from in terms of values who have asserted that there has been this establishment of new elites based on similar exclusive grounds and pointing out ethical contradictions of various kinds. And so, you know, writers like George Orwell, Robert Michels, Christopher Lasch, Milovan Djilas, among others come to mind. I'm also reminded more simply of a song from the 1960s by the satirist Phil Ochs that was called, “Love Me, I'm a Liberal” I don't know if you ever heard that, but the question I guess I have for you is, is there something distinctive about this new group of elites that's different from these other kinds of pointed out contradictions and new classes of the past?

MaG: No, in fact. Well, so actually I think, so this group of folks that I call symbolic capitalists, they've been called other names in the past by other scholars. So they've been called the professional-managerial class, the new class, class x, a lot of classy terms. But yeah, and so I don't call them, I'm not a fan of neologisms, but I didn't want to use this class terms because I actually don't think calling this elite constellation of class is actually the best way to understand what they are. That would be a tangent, I'd be happy to go on, but I'll just bracket that for now. (laughter)

GR: We'll leave that one for next time.

MaG: But all to say, yeah, I think the argument of this book, it's participating in a genre of work by people like Lasch and Michael Lind and Burnham and Richard Florida and a lot of other people who have studied the rise and formation of this new elite. My book makes a few contributions that theirs don't and in some cases couldn't. So, for instance, looking at these periods of rapid shift among people like us and the causes and consequences of these shifts, these great awokenings, that's something that no one else has done yet so far, it's a novel contribution of this book. Looking at, a lot of the books don't really focus on the legitimizing narratives of these professionals. When they do, they focus on meritocracy. But there's this other element of social justice. And so what my book does is it shows how these two things relate, relate these narratives about meritocracy, these narratives about social justice, how they relate to our justifying our bits for power and status and so on. So that's a novel contribution. And then lastly, over time, the composition of these elites has changed a lot. So we're increasingly female, increasingly non-white, growing numbers of symbolic capitalists self-identify as neuro-divergent, disabled and queer and so on. And so these are important changes in the constitution of the knowledge professions. And so one of the things that this book does is actually explore in a deep way, in a way that no other book has done to date, how the changing constitution of these knowledge professions has changed the ways that we talk and think about why we deserve power and status, has changed the nature of these power struggles within the professions.

GR: Yeah, well, that struck me as well. So obviously some people are going to be listening to all this and are going to say something like the following, and I do want to squeeze a couple of other questions in if we could before the end, but they're going to say something like the following, look, just, you know, give me a break. Look at Trump, you mentioned Trump before, look at Trump, look at some of the supporters, look at what's going on, this is really kind of a low-level problem in comparison with all that, and people are going to read this and sort of interpret it as is some kind of perhaps a justification in some way of that frustration on that side of the political spectrum. They might even say something like, look, you know, you're just going around an intellectual barn of your own three times to sort of, you know, to indirectly defend him and his supporters. Briefly, how do you respond to that?

MaG: Yeah, so for one, I'm someone who's been canceled by Fox News, very famously. So I mean, I wouldn't classify myself as a supporter. But you know, setting that aside, the thing about it is, if folks actually want to stop the appeal, undermine the appeal of Trump and DeSantis and these kind of people, like a key thing that drives their appeal actually is the sense of disconnect that a lot of people have between people like us and the rest of society. And if they, if a lot of Americans feel like we don't represent their values and interests, that we're not living up to our obligations we're not delivering the goods, that we look down on them and disparage them, they don't have, that people like them are not represented in our institutions. And a lot of these narratives aren't wrong. Like, it's not it's actually the case that these institutions have grown more parochial along many lines. It's actually the case that many of us do disparage and look down upon people who are sociologically distant from us. They're not making that up, it's a fact. And if they're presented with two options, if they perceive, see that there's these problems in society that aren't getting fixed, that people like us, that they see this growing distance, they don't have a voice and a stake, and they're presented with two options, one of them being, the people like the DeSantis and Trump, who say, look, these institutions, you can't fix them, they're lost, you can't trust these people to reform themselves, and so on. We have to burn them down and start over. And then the other people are saying, hey, nothing to see here, don't believe your lying eyes, actually these things are great and awesome. Like, it's easy to see who's going to win that debate. It's going to be the burn-it-all-down people. So if we want to stop the burn-it-all-down people, we need to acknowledge and address these problems.

GR: Important point. If you've just joined us, you're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media and my guest is the journalism professor and writer Musa al-Gharbi. You know, what you just said there reminded me of something that my brother-in-law texted my spouse several years ago. He does not have a lot of formal education, but he's quite perceptive, and I shouldn't say but, and he's quite perceptive. And he texted this, it was while he was watching something on CNN, he said, they think we're stupid and they don't know that we know they think we're stupid. It's sort of encapsulates what you just said. I want to try to squeeze in, we've got about three minutes left, I want to try to squeeze in a couple questions. I want to start with the most important one and maybe this is the only one we'll get to. But I want to ask this question, it's a very blunt question. It circles back around is something that you had been mentioning before. It really gets at the heart of what you're talking about with some of this homogeneity of points of view. Well, what do you think the reception of this book would have been in the media if it hadn't been written by somebody like you? Someone with your name, someone who looks like you, someone who's, you know, I don't know, like a, you know, white male from a Protestant upbringing or something. You know, what do you think would have happened to this book?

MaG: Yeah, would have been a lot different. So one of the cultural contradictions of this book is it's in some ways a literal embodiment of some of the things it criticizes. So it criticizes the use of elite degrees from places like Princeton and Columbia to decide who's worth listening to. But part of the reason it was published is because I was at Columbia University. If I had been writing from, you know, North Dakota State University, fine school, but it probably wouldn't have been published by Princeton University Press. The book criticizes the ways that people leverage their identity in service of their power struggles and status struggles. But it's the case that is part of the reason this book was sexy to the publishers because I'm a black Muslim who writes for The Guardian and so on. If I had been a conservative, cisgender, heterosexual, white male, Republican anything like that, the reception would have been different after publication, but probably wouldn't have even been published in the first place. Or if it was, even the exact same texts, right, the exact same arguments, but from a white person, if it was published at all, it would probably have had a whole bunch of sensitivity readers and all of this kind of stuff. The only reason I was given the freedom to go pew pew pew and just tell the truth as I see it (laughter) it was in part because I'm a black Muslim who writes for The Guardian and stuff like this. So I hit all the right social signals for the publisher. But yeah, I agree. Like, one of the things the book criticizes is the way that identity is and elite credentials and stuff like that influence who and how people talk and think about like, but the book is itself a product of these very things that it criticized. Rather than denying that, I think it's important to just lean into it and be honest.

GR: Yeah, well, and frankly, I think it makes the book more interesting as well. We've only got literally ten seconds left, so this is going to have to be a yes or no question. But have you lost many, for lack of a better word, woke friends over this book?

MaG: Not yet.

GR: Good, good, that's good to know. Well, we're going to end on that really positive note. I wish we had more time to talk, this is really fascinating. But that was Musa al-Gharbi, and again, his new book is titled, “We Have Never Been Woke: The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite.” It's an important book and it's a very provocative and good read. Musa, thanks so much for taking the time to talk with me, this has been really interesting.

MaG: It's been great to be here. Thank you for having me.

GR: You've been listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media, conversations in the public interest.

Lauren Hall speaks on the theme and ideas behind her recent op-ed, “Liberals Must Stop Treating Trump Voters as Enemies.”

Program transcript:

Grant Reeher: Welcome to the Campbell Conversations. I'm Grant Reeher. The aftermath of the November elections, at least in terms of political rhetoric, has sounded much like the last 12 years. Deep division and urgent claims about the evils intended by the other side. My guest today thinks we've had more than enough. Lauren Hall is a professor of political science at the Rochester Institute of Technology and she's a visiting fellow at the Mercatus Center's Program on Pluralism and Civil Discourse. She's also recently penned an op-ed in Real Clear Politics titled, “Liberals Must Stop Treating Trump Voters as Enemies.” Professor Hall, welcome to the program.

Lauren Hall: Great to be here, Grant, thank you.

GR: It's good to have you. So I want to just say at the outset, perhaps as a disclaimer of sorts to you and to our listeners that I think I've encountered much of what you are observing in your recent writing on this subject. So I might end up participating in the discussion more than I usually do, as well as asking the questions, but I'll try to discipline myself. But first, before I get to the questions about this recent issue that you've been writing about, I want to get and share with our listeners some background on where you're coming from. So you describe yourself as a radical moderate. So first of all, tell us what a radical moderate is for you.

LH: Yes, great question. I've been thinking about this a lot. My 2014 book was on, it's called, “Family and the Politics of Moderation.” So I've been thinking about what political moderation is for a long time. But when I was trying to think about how to explain this concept to broader audiences, what I realized is that moderation has a kind of serious marketing problem. It often sounds like bland compromise or just, you know, you kind of pick a point between two extremes, and that's moderation. And so when I was trying to think about what I was actually going for, it's not actually moderation just for the sake of moderation. Moderation is actually radical in the sense that it's a complete reframing of the political landscape that we're living in. So I think a lot of times we tend to place ourselves on political binaries, right versus left, Democrat versus Republican, but if you actually look at the political landscape, it's really complex, it's really variable. People occupy different parts of it at different times. There's an enormous amount of overlap. And so what I really want people to think about when they think about moderation is an exploding of these political binaries, and that's the radical part. We're rejecting the political binary altogether and trying to map a more accurate shared landscape.

GR: Well, and the way you describe that gets at exactly the question that I wanted to ask you as a follow-up, and maybe you've already answered it. And that's that, I think the media tends to see it in the way that you described what it isn't, what moderation isn't or the way that you don't see it. And I wondered, is that why it tends to get downplayed by the media? Because it's just like, oh, this is just splitting the difference, not thinking differently.

LH: Yes. Well, I think there's a couple of things going on, right? So the media responds to incentives and one of the primary incentives we have in in modern media, especially with the 24-hour news cycle, is clicks, right? Clicks and views. And moderate, thoughtful nuanced, complex positions don't get clicks, they don't get views, the more extreme positions do. The other thing that I think as political scientists, we're all aware of is the fact that when you can activate people's tribalism, when you can activate people's in-group outgroup instincts, you get more clicks, you animate people, right? You trigger the emotional parts of their brains. So it's not just that we have a marketing problem, but it's also the fact that it's really easy to shift people out of a nuanced, moderate mindset and into this tribal, partisan binary kind of mindset. So that's where I think the media, there's some really perverse incentives built into the structure of how we're thinking about news reporting. And by the way, I think there's some hopeful indicators. So I don't want to be too pessimistic, but right now, at least there's some real incentives toward extremism.

GR: And just also to cover a little bit about your background. You're also, in addition to the things I mentioned at the outset in my introduction, you're also a board member of something called the Prohuman Foundation. Now, I mean, my first thought was who could be against that? But tell us what that is and what it's about.

LH: Yeah, great, great question. So I'm on the board of advisors for the Prohuman Foundation, and it's a relatively new foundation, just about a year old. And one of the goals of that foundation is to try to sort of reinvigorate areas of connection between people. So one of their taglines is, you know, that everyone has unique identities but shared humanity. And so rather than getting fragmented with identity politics or trying to sort of whitewash or sort of, you know, melting pot people, we can live with kind of tension. It's not even tension, but the fact that every individual does have lots of unique identities that affect the way that they move around the world. But we also have enormous areas of shared humanity. And so a lot of the work that they're doing overlaps with my own work in terms of trying to reinvigorate public discourse, make it more nuanced, make it more clear how complex political and social issues are. One of the founders of that foundation is Daryl Davis, who's very famous as an incredible black musician for making friends with KKK members and actually converting KKK members away from extremism and white supremacy. And part of the way that he does that is by creating these pathways to showcase the shared connections that he has with them, and a lot of that's through music. But so anyway, he's a very inspirational figure in general, but he's one of the co-founders of that foundation.

GR: Interesting. So you have been experiencing something politically, again, going back to your editorial and Real Clear Politics, from your colleagues and your liberal friends that I have to say, and I said at the outset, it sounds very familiar to me. But it's a demonization not just of Donald Trump, but more importantly, the slightly more than half of the country's voters who voted for him over Kamala Harris. Tell me a bit about that experience as you've experienced it.

LH: So a lot of it was what social media, watching friends of mine argue that they have relatives that they'll just never see again or they didn't realize that friends were white supremacists or fascists or Nazis. And I remember thinking to myself, well, this is actually crazy. I mean, it's like we often have this, and I just know this from being in an academic environment where people are generally there's a liberal slant. We talk a lot about misinformation and the kinds of myths that, you know, for example, climate deniers have. But then I was watching all these well-educated liberal people accuse 50 plus percent of the American population of being fascists. And it was just, you know, we have our own myths that I think we need to confront. And the broader point of that op-ed was this actually does deep damage to the people that we want to protect. So if you believe strongly that Trump is a danger to civil society and to liberal democracy, there's a lot of people who are going to be vulnerable under that regime. You need as many friends as you can possibly get. You need to build coalitions and you need to be able to reach across the aisle to people who you may not have as much in common with as you might want. But we don't get to choose the people that we that we share our country with. We have to work with the people that we have. And there are lots of complicated reasons that people voted for Trump, and very few of them were outright fascism.

GR: You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher and I'm speaking with Rochester Institute of Technology Political Science Professor Lauren Hall. So there's a particular aspect of all this I want to plumb a little bit that has really struck me in, not only recent months, but recent years. And it's a more of a feature of political polarization and it and it afflicts both sides of the aisle in my experience. But it's the assumption that what is motivating people on the other side of the political divide are the worst goals and values imaginable. For example, that people voting for Trump, we already talked about this, people voting for Trump are primarily motivated by bigotry or a desire to control women or a desire to harm vulnerable populations. Or the people who voted for Harris are motivated by a desire to, in the extreme in the abortion case take innocent life or elevate certain minorities over majorities or they want to confiscate everybody's gun. Just curious to hear your reflections about that, about jumping to those motivations.

LH: Yeah. So I'm not a social psychologist, but I do, from what I understand, right, there's a thing called one of the cognitive biases that's very common as the fundamental attribution error, which is the tendency of people to attribute good faith motives to themselves and bad faith motives to other people, right? So the guy who cuts you off in traffic, right, he's a jerk. But when you accidentally cut someone off, it's because you were distracted because your child is sick, right, so you have all sorts of reasons for things, whereas other people have bad reasons for things. And, you know, I think this is a really common part of human life. But I think we see that perfectly when it comes to how people vote, right? When people think about their own voting decisions, right, they think about them in terms of their own complex, four-dimensional political landscape, right? All of the things that they care about and some of them may say, well, you know, I'm a single issue voter usually, but in this particular election, right? So people introduce complexity and nuance into their own voting decisions. But when it comes to other people, we very quickly reduce them to a single one-dimensional point, right? A one-dimensional motive. So either it's bigotry or it's something else, right? And, you know, conservatives and Trump voters do this to liberal voters as well.

LH: This is not a, this is a two-way street, absolutely. But I think that when we look at the liberal reaction to the Trump win, I think we see the fundamental attribution error in really clear, really clear relief. And it's a serious problem because it prevents us from finding those common connections that make civil discourse possible and in fact, that make political communities possible.

GR: And just as a follow-up to that, I'll give you a specific experience I had, I'm curious to get your reaction to it. But a few years back, I was at a small group dinner with a, and I won't mention the person's name but they were very prominent award-winning historian from the academy. And she, in the course of this dinner, casually referred to all the racists who had voted for Trump. And I gently said, you know, certainly all Trump's voters are not racists, right? And then she just said, well, I'm over that. And the certainty of her statement shocked me. So what do you or what do we say to someone like that? Because they've got the imprimatur of the academy behind them. They've been, you know, given these awards, but they're just saying this stuff.

LH: Well, I mean, there's a little bit of irony, right? Which is that a lot of us as humanists, as social scientists. Some of us trace our, I’m a political theorist, so, you know, we sort of trace our ancestry back to Socrates, right? And the Socratic sort of humility, which is that you only know that you know nothing, that was supposed to be the foundation for philosophic and political exploration, right? This idea that you don't know what you don't know. And so that's why you have to ask questions. That's the platonic, the Socratic method. So it's deeply ironic that we now have this kind of certainty that a lot of higher educational institutions and workers, the Professoriate, I think being a great example of this, we've replaced that humility with hubris. We think we understand why other people are doing what we do. There's a great book that just came out, “We Have Never Been Woke” by Musa al-Gharbi. And one of the things that he argues in that book is that knowledge workers have become, that is in fact, the new gulf in America. And knowledge workers fundamentally misunderstand how other people live. They misunderstand their motivations, they misunderstand how their lives actually play out. And that leads to a lot of really, it leads to obviously miscommunication and bad polling, as we've seen in all of these elections. But it also leads to making really awful generalizations about why other people are behaving the way that they're behaving.

GR: So this is an instance of great minds think alike. But I am going to speak to him either next week on this program or the week after.

LH: Oh, wonderful.

GR: And the intention was that the two of you would be kind of a pair, it would be kind of a matched pair, a series, if you will. So you've done a great job of previewing that for me.

LH: (laughter) Wonderful.

GR: You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher and I'm talking with Lauren Hall. She's a political scientist at the Rochester Institute of Technology, who's recently published an op-ed piece titled, “Liberals Must Stop Treating Trump Voters as Enemies” and we've been discussing the issues that her essay raises. So more generally, you often hear that, from folks that push this more extreme view who are on the left, you often hear from them that, look, the existential threat to democracy that's posed by Donald Trump justifies all this hyperbolic language or language that might seem hyperbolic or over-the-top. And if it does seem too much that way, it just means that people aren't paying enough attention. Now, my own view, I think, sort of kindred to yours is that that kind of language makes the supposed problem worse rather than better, both strategically and tactically. But I wanted to get your sense to that as well. What are your thoughts about that kind of language that we often hear?

LH: Well, you know, I mean, I think it's one of these weird, again, sort of going back to this tribalism that polarization supports. When we start thinking in tribalistic terms about our side versus their side, I think we end up with ideological purity tests. We end up with this kind of existential, you know, the other side is an existential threat to our side. And so, first of all, I think it makes it really hard to identify when we're actually dealing with existential threats. And I think that is a tough line to draw a lot of times. I mean, certainly I watched January 6th and was deeply worried and felt that a line had been crossed in a serious way. I worry a lot about political norms because they're hard to build and very easy to tear down. So this isn't to say that I'm not concerned, I'm very concerned as a political scientist. But I do think that there are some real problems on the left with the way that they think, or at least what I hear from students and some faculty about civil discourse. And so sometimes I'll hear comments about, you know, civil discourse is just, you know, it's ignoring, right, evil or it's collaborating with evil.

GR: Right.

LH: I sometimes hear people talk about civil discourse as though it's tone policing, right, the idea that you would moderate your message to meet your audience, right, the basic elements of rhetoric or somehow not they don't function anymore because we live in this in this existentially threatening time. And again, I just think that we are, it's not that I'm not sympathetic to people who are operating in a place of fear and it's not that I don't share some of those fears. But the problem is whether your response is going to make things better or worse. And I think we have so much evidence that this kind of response makes things worse, right? How do you push people toward more and more kinds of extremism? Well, you do exactly what we're doing, right? Which is that we keep, we alienate them, we attribute horrible motives to them, we stop having conversations with them, we cut them out of various kinds of civil discourse, we segregate them off of different media platforms. So, you know, it seems clear to me that you might think that you are doing a good thing by censoring people on whatever, you know, social media platform you're on. But that actually feeds the problem. And so what I'm trying to think about as a political scientist is, is how do we move forward knowing that we have four years where we can either lose a lot more or find a way to protect what we have and sort of stay the course, if possible.

GR: Do you have maybe like one or two best suggestions or recommendations for moving forward in that regard?

LH: Well, and this is going to be, it's going to be unsatisfying to a lot of people. I wish we had top-down kinds of solutions, but a lot of the most promising work I'm seeing is happening from the bottom up. It's sort of grassroots, the bridging community. If you look at the, I'm a visiting fellow at the Mercatus Center this year, and they do these wonderful the pluralist labs where you actually get people together who disagree in fundamental ways on hot-button issues. And it's about engaging people in curiosity, right, asking people curious questions about why they believe what they believe, as opposed to the way that we usually approach these kinds of civil debates, which is, or, civil society debates, which is to go in and say, this is what I believe and this is why it's right. And so what that automatically does is it puts the other person on the defensive, it puts you on the offensive and it makes you want to defend your position. And what we really want to do is actually ask people questions. We want to say, hey, why did you vote for Trump knowing his position on immigration, given the fact that you have Latino relatives? Like, what are you thinking about the world, right? And I think if we ask people questions, we get a lot more information. We also make it clear to them that the other side is not the enemy, that the other side is actually just a bunch of curious people wanting to know more about what they're thinking. So I think there's a bunch of examples of that. There's the Builders Movement is another, there's a great documentary on the Tennessee 11, was a group of people that they put together with very different political views, but they actually put them together to try to come up with some kind of common sense policy for Tennessee on gun violence. And so these are people who range from hard core Second Amendment right folks all the way to, you know, extreme sort of pacifists. But they were able to come together and talk about things because the structure of the conversation was non-adversarial. And then Solutions Journalism is another great format for really thinking about local-level solutions, they're nonpartisan. The goal is, hey, let's look around us at our local communities and let's look for problems that we can solve together. And what that does is it takes the identity of being a Republican or a Democrat out of the picture. And instead, your neighbors trying to solve this local problem together.

GR: So, two things strike me there as observations. One, with the second example that you used as we kind of get practice a little bit at the local level and then maybe we can scale that up. And the other one about asking questions, you've kind to gone back to the roots that you already mentioned with Socrates because that's exactly what Socrates did, was simply ask questions of people.

LH: Yup.

GR: If you've just joined us, you're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media and my guest is the political scientist Lauren Hall. So I have this one question about, and you write about this in your op-ed, that the fact that when you look at the specific views that people have on policies, you do see a lot of overlap, whether you're looking at immigration or you're looking at LGBTQ rights or other kinds of issues that are normally seen as very divisive and very conflictual. And so we're more centrist than we'd like to think if we want to think about it in terms of centrist, but there's more overlap. But it seems to me, though, that that's still separate from the fact that in terms of behavior and the way that we see the other side, once there is a line of division down, either along party lines or along some other issue, that we're still quite polarized, that we still have this tendency to demonize once the parties take different stands on it. So how do you get at that? How do you actually leverage the fact that, beyond perhaps what you've already suggested as some remedies, that we might have overlap on the specific content of things, but that still doesn't influence the fact that I'm always going to vote for Democrats or I'm always going to vote for Republicans or I'm going to see Democrats as the enemy.

LH: Well, so at some point and this is where I think my, I try to see both points at the same time. I'm a localist, I tend to focus on grassroots kind of bottom-up solutions. But I think we also have to talk about the structures of our electoral system, as well as some of the incentives that that electoral system as well as the media landscape create. There was a great podcast interview with, I'll have to remember the podcast’s name, but it was with Yuval Levin. I think it's pluralism conversations actually with the Mercatus Center. But he actually made a really important point, which was a lot of people talk about ranked-choice voting in general elections. And he actually said, we don't need that, right? What we actually need are, in a sense, stronger parties, which people often think of as an odd thing when it comes to polarization, but stronger parties actually allow the party to filter out extreme positions. And if you had ranked choice voting at the primary level…

GR: Right.

LH: You actually could filter out a lot of these extremist candidates. It would undo this this cycle that we have now, particularly in the Republican Party, because they have fewer super delegates, they have they have less party control over their candidates. If you had ranked choice voting at the primary level, it introduces nuance, right? It allows people's actual preferences to emerge and then the party has a better sense of what their electorate actually stands for. If you look at a lot of the people who are becoming serious players, and this is absolutely if you, I mean, if you look at what happened in the 2016 election, why Trump got the nomination in the first place, that was not what the GOP wanted. That was not the direction they wanted to go. So I think there's two things that we have to think about as political scientists. We can think about the structural questions, we can think about what kinds of incentives build stronger and more reliable and more accurate electoral outputs, right? How are we actually reflecting what the electorate cares about? Because right now we're not. Our candidates are more extreme than the average American and they're more divisive than the average American wants. So we're in this weird space where our elections are not representing the desires of the people.

GR: Yeah. I think you've really hit on something important with the idea of rank choice being more important at the primary stage than the general election stage. Well, we've got about a minute and a half left, so I'm going to put you in a tough spot here. But I want to try to squeeze two questions in if we can. So sort of like a lightning round. First one is, I just had my last class with my Introductory American Politics students and they don't like this stuff either, they made that very clear to me. And one of the things I said to them was, and I should have said, ask questions, like you said earlier, but I said, you know, model the change that you want to see, which is a cliché, but it's got some wisdom to it. Any other thing that you would say to young people? Really quickly, like in 20 seconds or so.

LH: Yeah, I would just say ask questions, be curious. When you find yourself afraid, stop for a second, back off and get curious. Especially when it's about someone in your family or someone in your community.

GR: Then the last one, again, equally quick on an answer if we could. Any political figures out there now who you think are modeling a better way that come to mind?

LH: I unfortunately can't think of anyone right off the top of my head, which is depressing. But I will name a couple of organizations that I think are doing amazing work. Amanda Ripley is a journalist, her work, Good Conflict (High Conflict) is incredible, there's tool kits on there. And if you're interested in pluralist labs in the classroom, you can actually find a pluralist lab tool kit on the Mercatus website. So there's a couple of places that I think you can try out ideas.

GR: Okay, that's great, that's super helpful for everybody listening. That was Lauren Hall and again, her recent op-ed and Real Clear Politics is titled, “Liberals Must Stop Treating Trump Voters as Enemies.” Lauren, thanks so much for taking the time to talk with me. It's been fascinating and a really important topic.

LH: Thank you so much, Grant, it was great to see you.

GR: You've been listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media, conversations in the public interest.

Program transcript:

Grant Reeher: Welcome to the Campbell Conversations, I'm Grant Reeher. My guest today is New York Congressman Marc Molinaro. The Republican was elected in November 2022 to represent the 19th District, a large geographic area that spans from Ithaca and Cortland in the west to the Massachusetts border in the east and includes the city of Binghamton in the southwest. Last month, he was defeated in a very close election by Democrat Josh Riley. Among other political offices and experiences, Congressman Molinaro was a Republican candidate for governor of New York State and he has appeared several times previously on this program. Congressman Molinaro, welcome back to the program and I just want to say I really appreciate you being willing to speak to me in your last month of office. It's very generous of you to do that, and I appreciate it.

Marc Molinaro: Well, I appreciated our conversations. I enjoyed being on. And I'll tell you what I tell everybody else, the Constitution's pretty clear, I have a job that will conclude at 11:59 a.m. on January 3rd.

GR: (laughter)

MM: So I think that the public expects that I'm going to work until 11:59 a.m. on January 3rd of next year, and that's my commitment.

GR: Okay, well, we appreciate that and I'm glad you included this in it. So let me just start with what I imagine may be the least pleasant part of this interview for you, but I wanted to ask you about the election itself. As I just mentioned, two years ago, you won what was a close election against Josh Riley, this time you lost a very close election. What do you think was the difference between the two? What was the difference maker, if there was one you could point to?

MM: Well, last time I got more votes, this time I got less votes. (laughter) So, listen, I accept wins and losses. I think it's the beauty of this country and certainly it's actually one of the compelling reasons I enter into public service a long time ago, right? And that is, you know, the public gets to decide and we honor the vote. And so from the outset, I want to say that, I honor and respect the vote. I wish Josh Reilly success, we’ve spoken, and my office stands ready to assist in transitioning. All he needs to do is ask and our folks and I will be ready to assist. And so what I am about to say, I preface what I was about to say with that because I do think the significant difference was the amount of money spent by national Democrats. And it's as simple as that. We could pick apart my record and those who would not want to support me might find the things they, you know, they disagree with, and those who did support me find the things they did agree with. But overwhelmingly, the fact that Democrats were able to direct $250 million to four races in the state of New York is both impactful and obscene. Now, listen, Republicans spent money, too, but in my race, we were outspent by eight and a half million dollars. It’s very hard to overcome that kind of spending, it just is. And I would tell you both as a member of Congress and a soon to be former member of Congress, I’ll continue to advocate for restrictions on spending. You know, the fact is there's just far too much money being spent on these races and in candidates, you're left defending against things that just aren't true. And I'll be candid, listen, I, you know, to his credit, he ran a very disciplined race, but telling people I was opposed to women making their own health care choices is wrong. It's dishonest and it's not right. Telling them that I oppose access to birth control when I'm the one sponsoring legislation to protect access to birth control is just wrong, it's dishonest. And we just didn't have the resources to overcome it. And so, you know, that was eroded from us. The other of course, it's a presidential election year and turnout was a little bit higher. And so, you know, all that, you know, added up together to provide a very narrow loss. I accept it. And as I said, I wish him well. I just think that having done this for a very long time, you know, I was first elected as an 18 year old in 1994 as a village trustee in Tivoli, New York. And here I am 30 years later in 2024, ending my public service career, albeit I think for a moment in time. You know, as a member of Congress after 30 years, elections just have become less and less tethered to truth and it's really disturbing. And I do believe we all need to do better to really uphold the basic standard of honesty. Fight as we must, but there needs to be a commitment to doing somewhat more honest.

GR: Well I wanted to ask you a question about some of your messaging, if I could.

MM: Yeah, fine.

GR: And this is what I saw in some of your TV ads. It seemed to me that those ads portrayed you as more partisan and further to the right than my sense of your behavior in Congress. I mean, I watched a couple of them and I thought, that doesn't sound like the person that's been talking to me on the radio program. And it doesn't also, you know, your record and some of the things that you have done and searching for bipartisan ground in doing so. So I was just curious about the decision making regarding that. I don't know if there's a story there, but…

MM: Well, I mean, two thirds of the ads were neither my campaigns nor Josh's campaigns. They were funded by these outside political action committees, which, you know, we need to support us. I mean, it's the way it works. They, you know, as I said, they were able to spend about I think was about 32 or $35 million, something in that neighborhood. And of course we spent a lot less and were more in the $18 million range. But again, horrific amounts of money and there's just too much money. I was outspent by more dollars than some entire congressional races cost in this country. And so some of those ads, you know, I can't say that I enjoyed or didn't enjoy. I just had nothing to do with (unintelligible). The ads I think that mattered to me were, and I tell people, you know, there were basically two and one was with my mom looking into the camera telling you what we think. And the other was me looking in the camera, telling you what I think. I mean, the truth is, you know, we ran an entire campaign where the ads I paid for were me telling you what I think and the other side ran campaign ads that paid people to tell you what I think. And it just you know, it was a bit disheartening. But I also agree, you know, because there was so much money from the other side, we were forced to kind of run a race that defended my, you know, my right flank while trying to expand the middle. And I'll tell you, in fact, just yesterday, this political action committee aligned with the Democratic National Committee called Saving Western Civilization, it's a political action committee. They just finally filed their disclosure forms, but they ran an entire campaign in about five congressional districts. Mine was one of them in the country where they sent digital ads, text messages, postcards to Republicans telling them that we weren't Republican enough and pointing out to them that we had let Republicans down. And when you look at the math, you know, in a race in a district that basically is 50/50, you can't erode two or three percentage points on the right and one or two on the left and win. And so it was a very difficult kind of thing to maneuver. You know, Josh, again, this is not criticism, he had like 57 different ads, we had 5. I mean it just, when you have that kind of money you can do a lot of things and some of them were not honest. Some of them were very much about him and his record and God bless him. But that made it difficult at times to get out of hand.

GR: You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher and I'm speaking with Congressman Marc Molinaro, who represents New York's 19th Congressional District. Well, let's turn now to your time in Congress. What would you regard as your most significant achievement in your two years?

MM: Well first, just being the second most bipartisan member of Congress. I mean, you know, to your point, a few moments ago, I spent my entire adult life trying to work with Republicans and Democrats and anyone to try to solve problems. And I brought that same commitment to Washington. I didn't sponsor a single bill that was not bipartisan. And I, frankly, was responsible for, you know, both killing very partisan legislation that some on the right wanted and strengthening legislation that some on the left wanted and sort of navigating and mediating out to better outcomes. From the debt ceiling negotiation that brought about billions of dollars in federal spending reductions, but also met many of our needs, to negotiation over policies that, you know, provided assistance to those living in mental health services, mental health needs and infrastructure investment and support for law enforcement. So just the very nature of applying that commitment and again, the willingness to work with people irrespective of party to solve problems, I think you know, is something that I'm very proud about. But I also tell you and I know you get to it, I mean, the work we did to support those with mental health and disabilities, I co-chaired the bipartisan Mental Health Caucus. I lead the coalitions for those with disabilities with dozens of pieces of legislation provisions written. The Farm Bill, which I wish we had gotten done entirely, but nevertheless, the bipartisan bill adopted by the House AG Committee includes provisions that could only be written from upstate New York and frankly, very happy about that. But the last thing I'll tell you that I'm certainly most grateful and proud of is our constituent work. The people who work with me every day in the community responding and being responsive and responsible to the people we serve. And I don't think there's a community organization or a member of the public who interacted with our team who wouldn't say we weren't kind, we weren't responsive, we weren’t responsible. I think, you know, we really try to uphold that standard and frankly, I'm saddest for that because I think, you know, the constituents and voters expect that. I'm hopeful that my successor will apply the same kind of commitment. But the people that I that I hired and the people who worked with me have a deep sense of commitment and involvement in the community and that, you know, that makes me very grateful.

GR: And that's a really important part of the job and I'm glad that you pointed that out. I did want to, you're right, I did want to ask you about your work regarding mental health and disability. And particularly your Think Differently initiative, which was kind of a(n) umbrella theme that captured a lot of different things that that you were trying to do. It struck me, I think as important, you and I have talked about our personal connections with this, but just tell our listeners about that initiative and whether and how you might plan to try to keep that momentum going forward in the future.

MM: Yeah, thank you. So, Think Differently was launched in 2015 as a local effort that became very national when I held county office. But to your point, a broad umbrella under which we could organize resources, tools and advocacy along with awareness and understanding for those with intellectual, physical and developmental disabilities. The idea that we need to break down barriers and create opportunities. And by the way, individuals with disabilities as you and I both know, still face some of the most difficult prejudices, biases and obstacles. You know, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is extended to a lot of people, but those with disabilities often are not among them. And so making a commitment to break down barriers, create opportunities was important to me. Came to Congress, sponsored about 12 pieces of legislation that are specific to that theme, everything from ensuring greater response in emergencies for those with disabilities, making sure the tools and resources were there, job opportunities for those with disabilities and access to both housing and transportation. Many of those bills have been adopted. In fact, this week we've had already one more signed into law, I expect probably two more signed into law before I'm done this term. And so I think of important advancements. But beyond that, just within that context, you know, serving in a bipartisan leadership role, advocating for those with disabilities. You know, the last major disabilities piece of legislation was from 1990 and the Americans with Disabilities Act. Special education is always on the chopping block because of state aid and the way in which we sort of create secondary, you know, a secondary path to education for those with disabilities. And so we've got to keep advocating for those reforms and address the challenges that those with disabilities and their families face. Everything from good pay for direct care staff to housing, education and transportation as individuals with disabilities become more independent and obviously live a longer life. And so, you know, I'm going to keep doing that. I promised the organizations that I've worked with, both at home and in Washington, that I'm, you know, I can't be paid to lobby Congress, but I certainly can volunteer to advocate for the things that we care about. And so I'll continue to be a resource for those organizations, continue to advocate for those with disabilities. My wife and I actually had incorporated Think Differently as a not for profit some years ago. We didn't really want to put any a resource behind it, didn't want to conflict with any of our public responsibilities. We'll probably do a little, give a little bit of more energy to assist. I’d probably tell you my wife will probably take a much bigger role than I would. But to be a resource for individuals and organizations that support those with disabilities. And I'm going to continue to advocate and work with the organizations in the 19th district in upstate New York to be of assistance.

GR: Are you allowed to tell our listeners now, like where they can go if they want to help support that organization?

MM: Well, I can't really.

GR: Okay. But if we search Think Differently…

MM: Earlier this week, we had a roundtable in Binghamton with the Chamber of Commerce. One of the first things I'll do in the New Year is we're going to convene the Greater Binghamton Chamber of Commerce with the not for profit organizations that support those with disabilities to start building out a set of employment principles that businesses in the southern tier in Broome County could put into practice to hire those with disabilities. And then set out to establish some broader, you know, interaction so that the business community can work more directly with those with disabilities and create new job and employment opportunities. That's going to be one of the first things we do early next year.

GR: Great. You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media, I'm Grant Reeher and I'm talking with Republican Congressman Marc Molinaro. He represents New York's 19th congressional district. So let me ask you this, of your time there what was your fondest memory? Maybe your best day, if you will, in Congress?

MM: I have always shied away from these because it's like everything was a really cool experience. I mean, listen, being in the room when, whether it was Speaker McCarthy or Speaker Johnson needed a voice to get us toward you know, producing an outcome, is by far the greatest honors. I'm a freshman member, and I will just tell you, very, very few freshmen get invited to those meetings. But I will say, when it came to every major advancement, whether it was our conference moving legislation or trying to negotiate across the aisle, of course you had a Democrat president, Democrat Senate at the time, I was asked to be in the room in a small number of people to help negotiate solutions. Really, really big honor and fascinating opportunity. Now, I'm a kid who grew up on food stamps. You know, my parents, we were poor, and here I am in these meetings with, you know, leaders from around the country trying to negotiate outcomes in my first term as a member, I'll never forget that. But I’ll also tell you, because I know we've talked about this, you know, I jog and run quite often. There's nothing like waking up just before sunrise in Washington, D.C., we have to be here when we serve and going out for a run around the Capitol, down to the Lincoln Memorial and then back again. It's inspiring, it’s awe inspiring and it's just a, it's an amazing thing. I said this to a reporter who asked me some time ago, as much as I love running among the monuments and the buildings, it's equally interesting to run among the people because you're running past organized lobbying groups, special interest groups, American citizens who are here to petition their government, tourists from around the corner and around the world, prayer groups that pick up in the mall, protests around the Supreme Court. And, you know, I don't want this to sound arrogant, nobody knew who I was, I was just a guy in shorts and t-shirt, running. And to experience and see that as somebody who loves democracy, loves this republic, loves the act of public service, that is among the that the most wonderful parts of having served these last two years. But, and you said like, point to a day or not, I can't tell you the thousands of community events organizations we've interacted with that haven't left me thinking, you know, we can do something about that. A woman that served on one of the advisory committee said, you know, you made us feel like you were always listening, you were always taking notes, you were always relatable and we always felt like you were, you know, you were among us, one of us. And I think that I hope people who have interacted with feel that way, because I did and I still do. I mean, I've got books and books of notes that, you know, we have reflected on the move policy and ideas. And that interaction, in giving voice to people who don't often have it and just being that, you know, being able to be connected is really, really powerful and really important and I've enjoyed it.

GR: So the other side of the coin now, of course, the worst day or the low point and connected to that, any regrets about your service, things you wish you had done differently?

MM: There's always things I wish that I had done differently and I just have perfected never saying them out loud to the masses.

GR: (laughter)

MM: I make my mistakes, there are things, you know, are there tweets that I wish that we didn't send out are there comments that I wish I didn't say, there’s a frustration that sometimes overcame me, absolutely, I mean, we're all human. But I learned from those. I mean, I do think you learn from your mistakes, missteps and failures a heck of a lot more than your successes, so this is another opportunity. And those that I know of and have reflected on are opportunities to learn and hopefully grow from. But I will say, you know, the two things that, well, one sort of action here that was among the lowest is when the eight Republicans joined with every Democrat of the House to oust Speaker Kevin McCarthy. And it isn't about McCarthy, it's about the institution and that forever set in motion these last two years, a bit of chaos that was very hard to overcome. I'm grateful to have been in the room and to have encouraged my colleagues to come together to ultimately move forward behind Speaker Mike Johnson, he's become a good friend and frankly is giving me opportunity to help shape policy in ways that I couldn't have expected. But the fact that, again, eight Republicans and 200 Democrats band together to oust the speaker, only the second time in history, and it's just not right, it's not acceptable. And it was really, it was a low point because we had opportunity. We all did, and had we figured out some way to navigate that Republicans and Democrats, we can have our fights and our disagreements, but we wouldn't have sent the institution, you know, into a bit of chaos. And that was really, really very challenging and really upsetting. I mean, among the dumbest actions I think ever taken by the House of Representatives, I mean, outside of bad policy, this was sort of a procedural thing that should never, never happen and should never happen again. I will say on a personal note, I love the work I do. Being separated from my kids and family as often as we are, I don't have the benefit of personal wealth. I don't own two homes. You know, I fly back to Albany from D.C., drive to Catskill and I'm home. You are away from your family a lot more and it's important, right? We know we're on a mission. We know we have responsibility, we make the sacrifice. But there are lots of things that you miss along the way. I couldn't bring my kids to preschool or elementary school in Washington, they need to be among their friends in their community. And just missing those things at times is heartbreaking. That said, I don't know when this airs, but we are recording one day before my son Eli who will turn 8 on December 26th, will be performing as a Tiny Tim in the Performing Arts Center Community Theater. I will be home to see that, and so I feel very blessed that at the very least, I get that opportunity.

GR: Fantastic. If you've just joined us, you're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media and my guest is Congressman Marc Molinaro. So what's the most important thing about Congress that average citizens don't know or appreciate? Two things, okay.

MM: 85% of what we do is bipartisan and without a lot of conflict and you don't ever really get to see it. Truly the media and then those show horses, and you pick who they are, distort that, they just distort it. I mean there's so much good work going on that, and again, principled arguments, certainly different opinions, but 85% of what happens in Washington, D.C. is, and in Congress is not nearly as is a dire and chaotic and dramatic as you see it on television. And I really, even some of the things you see on television that look dramatic, I always wonder where was I? Because I was there and it didn't seem that dramatic when I was here.

GR: (laughter)

MM: And so that for me, I think people should know that, you know. And it isn't smoke filled rooms where decisions get made. I mean, and even this in quotes, “special interest”, I mean, every day in my office is a special interest and usually it's somebody from the district who's with an organization to support local pharmacies, to support the breast cancer awareness, to advocate for some policy and there is the resident from Ithaca, there's the person from Binghamton, there's the business person from Norwich or Catskill or Hudson. And so, you know, you get a distorted view. And I did, too, right, I was not a member of Congress. I mean, despite the television ads, I was not in Congress for 30 years, I was only in Congress for a year and a half. You would've thought I was responsible for everything these last 30 years in America. But I spent, you know, a lot of time in local government, you don't have that appreciation until you're here. You think it is as dramatic and theatrical as you see and it isn't. The only other thing I'll say very quickly is, what I learned and have learned to appreciate, now I've served in the legislatures before, both in county and the state legislature, but neither of them rely on committees as much as the House does. The business of the House gets done in committees, and those committees have very strict jurisdiction. This comes from Thomas Jefferson, by the way, the very basic concept that you start from the bottom and work your way up in order to get legislation done and in order to ensure that, you know, that we're good at what we do, and by the way, if you're listening, you can argue with whether or not we are. But that said, in order to be good at what we do, we specialize, right? The committee specialize in topic areas, and the debate and the work product is it occurs at the committee level. And a lot of really spirited debates and disagreements occurred at the committee level. You don't always see that because, you know, you only see the end product. It's not sausage being made, it's not some, you know, discredited thing going on behind. It's actually here we are debating and crafting legislation. But it's a rigid, structured committee process. What comes to the floor must ultimately have started someplace else. Yes, we bypass that process from time to time, but every piece of legislation of note is crafted and recrafted and refined in a committee. And that really is very cool for a person who likes government. It's pretty interesting as people who celebrate democracy because, right, it's sort of compartmentalized before it gets to the big body. And it is where members of Congress become specialists in certain areas. And so it's funny, when I was a county executive, I would tell you we needed to have a knowledge base that was a mile wide and a few feet deep. In Congress, it's the other way around. It's sort of you become narrowly focused and deeply focused and have experience, deep experience in a narrower field of information.

GR: This is a perfect segue to the last question. We got about a couple of minutes left, I wanted to make sure I asked you this, but what you just said is one of the things that I tried to teach the students in my introductory American politics class this semester. I'm about to meet them on Monday for my last class meeting with them. And a lot of them, like everybody else in this country, are worried about the state of politics in America, they don't like a lot of what they see. So is there something that you can give me in about a minute or so that I could leave them with as a parting message from you to them?

MM: This is a participatory and volunteer sport. Our democracy, our republic requires your participation, and we must acknowledge that that participation is voluntary. So choose to be engaged. You want the system to be better, you have to be better. You want politicians to pay attention, you've got to engage. And it's not just in the social media, it's not just in the yelling on the streets, it's not just in the letters to the editor or the campaigns. It's every day engaging in a way that tries to move the conversation. Maybe it's toward a direction you favor, but still engage and don't give up. This place, this country is still the greatest republic the sun is ever shined upon, to quote Teddy Roosevelt. But it is always in need of our earnest engagement. Participate and volunteer to be engaged in that process. And I promise you, you'll see progress and we will continue to evolve in very promising ways as a country.

GR: Oh, that's great, thanks for that. That was Marc Molinaro, again, Congressman Molinaro, thanks so much for taking the time to talk with me. And again, under the circumstances, you didn't have to do it, but you did. I wish you the best in whatever your next chapter is. And let me just say, I guess bordering on editorial comment, I think the institution needs more Marc Molinaro’s and John Katko's on both sides of the aisle. I think that would make for a better and wiser and better functioning institution. But thank you.

MM: Thank you. I appreciate it. Be well and call me any time. Maybe I'll come in and talk to one of those classes sometime.

GR: That would be wonderful. You've been listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media, conversations and the public interest.

Program transcript:

Grant Reeher: Welcome to the Campbell Conversations. I'm Grant Reeher. My guest is Emily Carney. She's a journalist, a former nuclear technician for the Navy, a co-host of the Space and Things podcast and founder of the Space Hipsters space flight group. She's with me today because she's also the author with Bruce McCandless of a new book titled, “"Star Bound: A Beginner's Guide to the American Space Program, from Goddard's Rockets to Goldilocks Planets and Everything in Between". Emily, welcome to the program and congratulations on the new book.

Emily Carney: Thank you, I'm really happy to be here. Thank you so much.

GR: Well, we're glad to have you. So let me just start with a really basic question about the public really, and that is, in your opinion, what is the biggest misconception that people have about either space or space exploration?

EC: I think the biggest misconception, and we'll probably get back to this later in the interview as well, but I think the biggest misconception about space flight is that it doesn't really have any worth for Earth, because when people think about space flight, they always think about, oh, it's stuff that's happening up there, what's it doing for us down here? And it's done an incredible amount for our day to day lives. But it's also, you know, there is a potential in the future to have an off planet civilization. And it's teaching us how to do that as well. I tend to think very long term. So I think that's why, you know, space is worthwhile. And I think that's a big misconception, you know, when you ask just regular people about space, well, what is it doing for me down here? It's actually doing a lot in your day to day life down to the medicines you might take. So I think, in some of the technologies we have, I mean, heck, we have a little microprocessor right here, you know, at our fingertips and a lot of that is from space flight technology. And but when you talk to people, you got to make it more than just spin offs you've got to, you know, and my thing is, in the future, you know, it may be useful to have off planet habitation, you know, and most people don't want it. Most people (say) like, that's crazy. But I'm like I'm talking about a hundred, two hundred years from now. So I really think those are the things that make spaceflight worth it. And also just having something to be wondrous about. That's the thing, that's what got me into spaceflight was just the sheer like, wow, you know, the amazement in it, you know, and the fact that, you know, you could take people from 0 to 17,500 miles per hour in like, less than 10 minutes and put them in orbit, to me, that's always, you want to say the word miracle comes up. It's not a miracle. It's a lot of hard work, but it just seems miraculous.

GR: Right, yeah, I do want to get on to a couple of those topics. So you've already anticipated that, we'll come back to a couple of them. But let me ask you this as sort of a starting point. In thinking about the history of the story of humans in space, what do you think, if there is one, is the single most important inflection point in that story? You know, where does the thing really turn?

EC: I think the inflection point really, this is my opinion, some other space historians may not agree with me, and that's fine. My personal inflection point would probably be around 1966 because that was the point where we had the, it's been called the space race between the Soviet Union's and the US, and that was really the point where things started. And granted I'm not you know, trying to strike out some of the bad things that NASA went through shortly after that. But I think that was the point where we really started to turn a corner and hold our own and we're really it seemed like, wow, we might make it to the moon, you know, because we had the Gemini program, it was demonstrating a lot of the concepts, the United States needed to ace before we got to the moon, you know, pretty effectively, you know, Apollo was being developed. Granted, it had some serious issues at the time, you know, and it really seemed, you know, and at that time, the Soviet Union, they weren't really doing anything. They kind of went quiet for a little bit. So that to me really seems like the turning point in the story, like, wow, we might actually make this goal that, you know, Kennedy set for us. So, yeah, a lot of people would say the moon landing and stuff like that or something else, and that's fine. But that's just my opinion. If you want to take it back, even earlier of, okay this is where things begin to pivot a little bit in our direction, like, wow, it looks like we might actually make it. So that's my opinion.

GR: Well, yeah, it's interesting that you mention that because I did want to ask you a couple of questions about the Apollo program and also the more general effort to go to the moon. I've read a fair number of analyzes of the Kennedy administration and it's clear from those that both Kennedy and his closest advisors were extremely pragmatic and even somewhat cautious in a lot of ways, despite the afterglow that we have about his administration. I was wondering, where did Kennedy get the idea of dedicating us to putting a man on the moon by 1970? That was a bold claim when he made it.

EC: That's a great question. I honestly wondered that in a lot of ways myself I that's a really great question. I'm not sure if I can even answer that. I think Kennedy was just, he was trying to motivate our country to a certain goal, you know, to motivate us to a means to an end. That speech at Rice University in many ways was a surprise to people at NASA because I listen to the speech, Alan Shepard just got back from space in May 1961, right? First American in space, you know, the Soviets did beat us to the punch a bit but, you know, Freedom 7 was a much needed success for us because we'd had a lot of public failures and we'd only had 15 minutes roughly in space, maybe, you know, if you want to stretch it out maybe 18 minutes. That speech that Kennedy gave, and like you said, Kennedy I think had a lot of mixed feelings towards spaceflight. If you look at a lot of his private papers and some of his private communications he didn't always come across as like, pro space, you know? But I just, I think he wanted to give us a sort of a bold motivation, you know, for the country, you know, technologically. A lot of people at NASA at the time were like, what? Like, we've got to do what? Because, you know, any effort to go to the moon, it required obviously propulsion, which we did not have at the time. We didn't have the Saturn 5 in 1961. It involved hardware which had not yet been invented. It required just a lot of things that we just didn't have yet. So I think, you know, Kennedy just wanted to give the country something bold to strive toward, you know, and sort of a, I guess a shared experience. And when he died, you know, when he was unfortunately assassinated in December 1963, I think it became even more important to people at NASA to fulfill that wish because it was something that okay, this is, it became more poignant I guess. I'm probably skipping a lot of historical documents, I'm not sure what was the actual pivot in his mind for it, but I think it came as a surprise to a lot of people, especially at NASA, because they're like, we just finished a 15 minute long flight. We haven't even flown in Earth orbit yet and you want us to go to the moon.

GR: Yeah, it does seem to be a juxtaposition with some of his other caution and public policy errors. You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher and I'm speaking with space journalist Emily Carney, coauthor with Bruce McCandless of a new book titled, “Star Bound”. Well, I want to fast forward now to more of the present. And it strikes me as I read in the last few years that most of the space related press has seemed to focus on the privately funded or non-governmental space efforts. So first question is, how significant have those efforts been for space exploration and for keeping the space related efforts going? Is the private sector now terribly important to that?

EC: Absolutely. We've seen in the last decade or so ,you know, we've got companies like Blue Origin sending private citizens to space. We have obviously SpaceX has really kind of monopolized the satellite market, the small sat market. They're developing Starship for deep space exploration. They also have the Falcon Heavy as well. You know, there's obviously, you know, Virgin Galactic, things of that nature as well. Really, over a decade ago, NASA entered into a commercial crew partnership with a few vendors such as Boeing, I won't get into Starliner too much, and SpaceX to send cargo and crew to the International Space Station. And really, since that point, SpaceX has proved themselves as a company to be very capable in meeting a lot of the goals for cargo putting crew up there since 2020. We've had a ton of crew sent to the ISS using the Crew Dragon. So yeah, commercial space flight in the last decade or so has just you know exploded, it's just gotten huge. When people think about space flight in the future they're probably going to associate this era with commercial spaceflight I think because you know, and that's not a slight to NASA at all. You know, NASA has been working for a very long time to develop the space launch system and to develop infrastructure for Orion. And granted, they've worked with some contractors for that. But in the meantime, the bulk of human spaceflight has been carried out by, you know, SpaceX. So, yeah, absolutely this is sort of the era for commercial space flight for private and public partnerships and also just for private space flight. We've seen Inspiration4 send up four private astronauts, Polaris Dawn sent up four private astronauts, and they accomplished an EVA, the first private spacecraft EVA, which is a huge deal.

GR: Just translate EVA for our listeners.

EC: Oh, okay. A spacewalk, extravehicular activity, basically a spacewalk. Granted, it wasn't a very ambitious spacewalk. All they did was go out of the spacecraft and stand up and test the suit. It wasn't like they were doing very complex tasks. That's still a huge deal because you've got to start somewhere. And that means in the future, you know, regular astronauts will have the capability to maybe fix infrastructure in space, you know, and yeah, so this is definitely the era of those kind of things.

GR: You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher, and I'm talking with Emily Carney, the journalist and former nuclear technician is the coauthor with Bruce McCandless of a new book titled, “"Star Bound: A Beginner's Guide to the American Space Program, from Goddard's Rockets to Goldilocks Planets and Everything in Between" and we've been discussing her book. So you mentioned this at the outset, Emily, and I wanted to come back to it because I think it is such an important question. I'm going to give it some personal context, if I could, but it goes back to the question of the expense of space exploration and space research versus tangible rewards. And I remember as a boy, I watched Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin walk on the moon on real time. And it was an amazing experience for me. But recently I watched a movie about Neil Armstrong called, “First Man”, and I was surprised watching the movie to learn that there was a lot of political controversy at the time about spending that amount of money on going to the moon. And I suppose I get that in one way. But, you know, the entire world was mesmerized. You mentioned sort of the wonder of all of this, and I can remember that. I mean, if I put it this way, this is not an exaggeration. If I'm if I'm on my deathbed and I'm still of coherent mind and somebody asked me, what were the biggest things that you saw in your lifetime? The first thing coming out of my mouth is going to be I watched man walk on the moon. And so I guess what this all leads to is what do you say to people when they question the value of a dedicated space program in those kind of financial terms?

EC: That's a really great question. I did love in, “First Man” how they sort of juxtaposed the Apollo 11 the moon landing with, you know, some of the social concerns of the time, especially some of the cultural concerns that were going on at the time. You know, you had race issues, there were riots, people were protesting a lot of unseemly things that were happening with the government, etc. Fast forward to now, we have a lot of the same things that are still happening. I won't try to get too political here, but let's look at right now in this time in history, you know, we've got a new administration about to come in. You know, we have a lot of the same social problems and issues that we had during the late 1960’s. Unfortunately, they're still around. And, you know, and in the last few weeks, I've seen a lot of posts on the internet, you know, and on various social media, like, you know, why do we need, you know, space flight? Why do we need space flight? What we need, you know, we need women's rights, we need health care. And I completely agree with that. I think we do need, you know, we do need to pay attention to what's going on here as well. I do think, though, I think spaceflight is 100% worth it. The reasons why is I do think advances in space flight, especially pulled the public and cultural advances like for example, Artemis II to is supposed to send the first African-American, the first woman and the first Canadian around the moon. Granted, that's not an American accomplishment, but that still means something. You know, that's been a long time coming. When we think of people going to the moon culturally, what do we think of? We think of people like Neil Armstrong. I love Neil Armstrong, but he was the sort of the arch-typical white male middle class test pilot, you know? In the late 60's, we didn't have women going to the moon, we didn't have African-Americans, we didn't have people from other nations allowed to go to the the moon. Now we're going to see that for the first time. That's just, to me that has a lot of cultural importance. Many people probably don't agree with me, they're probably like, what big deal is this? To me, that is a huge deal. I do believe representation in our society is extremely important. For me, it was extremely important growing up. This is probably a very long, convoluted answer, but when I was growing up, the first women astronauts were coming up at NASA, you know, such as Judy Resnik and Sally Ride, Rhea Seddon, Anna Fisher, etc. etc. And seeing those women in space literature just killing it, you know, just doing incredible work in spaceflight, that to me was like, whoa, that somebody like me could do that someday, you know? And that really, I don't think if I hadn't, I think if I hadn't seen that, I wouldn't have gotten into this industry, I really believe that. Because I wasn't, you know, as much as I admire the male Apollo astronauts, and I've been fortunate to become friendly with some of them, there wouldn't have been that representation for somebody like me where I could see myself doing something like that, you know? Whereas with women it was like, wow, okay, I have a place in this industry. So I think representation is important. I'm sure a lot of people, again, will disagree with what I say, but I stand by what I say. I think that's very important for just our culture and in the world as a whole. I do think it has financed like I said, I think it has very useful spin-offs technologically as well. And I think it's important because one day, maybe not in the next few years, but maybe 100, 200 years from now, we may need to maintain an off planet presence.

GR: Yeah, I want to come back to that. But you mentioned you mentioned the climate today and I did want to ask you a question about that. Former president and now president-elect Trump as I recall, he started the Space Force, the sixth branch of the Armed Forces. It received some criticism, even some ridicule at the time. What impact has it had so far?

EC: Well, the Space Force has had, I believe it's from it was derived from the Air Force that already existed at the time. I do believe it's had, I know a few people who are in the Space Force the Space Force runs a lot of the, what used to be Air Force bases, but a lot of the space infrastructure at Cape Canaveral and Vandenberg. I'm former military, at the time, you know, the idea of a Space Force was really met with ridicule and their uniforms got made fun of. And so I personally don't, as ex-military, I would never make fun of that personally. I think that's for me, that's verboten. I think the Space Force does have a positive impact every day because they maintain a lot of day to day space operations such as, you know, Cape Canaveral, Vandenberg and things like that. So that's really what I think about it. As ex-military, I'm really loathe to poo poo on any other military branch unless it's Army-Navy game day.

GR: (laughter) Yeah, I've heard I've heard a few of those from other folks.

EC: (laughter) Unless certain days, on certain states of the year, we're not friends. But the rest of the year, we're okay, we're fine.

GR: Yeah, that's right. If you've just joined us, you're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. And my guest is the journalist Emily Carney, whose new book is titled, “Star Bound”. So I want to come back to something that you mentioned earlier and you've talked about a couple of times, habitation in space. I get the sense from what you're saying then that's probably the distant frontier in space exploration, space research. But I was also wondering, this is a very abstract question, but do you think there is some kind of limit on what humans can achieve in and through space maybe like a space ceiling, if that makes sense, that you as someone who thinks in very long terms, would identify?

EC: That's an amazing question. I've thought about that a lot myself. Again, most people would probably not agree with my answer. I don't think there is a ceiling. I think it's going to take a lot of time to reach certain milestones. I think permanent space habitation, that's something that you know, that's an idea that's been around for a very long time. Space settlements were something that were first discussed, gosh, in the 1970's, late 60's. You know, there were a lot of visionary thinkers who discussed those back in the day and that idea is very still much bandied about. I think those are very, on a smaller scale I think those are very possible, they could definitely happen. We do have the technology for those kinds of things in the future. A lot of people want to talk about Mars, they want to go to Mars. And I have mixed feelings about Mars. I think going to Mars for long term trips, I think it's possible. There are a lot of variables that need to be worked out for human survivability. You know, obviously we can't breathe the atmosphere on Mars, landing is very difficult on Mars, it's not like landing on the moon or on Earth. There is a radiation issue on Mars, you know, and yeah, it would suck to go to Mars and then you come back and you get cancer. You know, nobody wants that, nobody wants that kind of experience. You know, and, you know, people generally don't want to see astronauts go through that, you know? And so that's kind of, you know, a safety mitigation issue there. I think those things are, I do think Mars as a goal is possible in the future. I just think there are a ton of issues that need to be sort of at least looked into before we attempt something like that. And there are a lot of thinkers who would disagree with me just because they're like, oh, yeah, we could do it, we could do it now, just send up some terraforming stuff, make some you know, they think it's going to be like, “The Martian”, and that's an awesome idea. I love, “The Martian”, I love Andy Weir. I think that's a cool idea, and I love the idea of exploring deep space like that. But, you know, like I said, as somebody who worked in the nuclear navy, I have some basic knowledge of what radiation does to people. And my concern is, you know, we don't want to see people get nuked to death on another planet. You know, you just don't want to see that. So those are things that, and shielding can be very heavy. The shielding we use on Earth for like reactor plants is like lead, basically. You can't take that into space. That's very heavy, it's not really a good space material.

GR: Okay, well, I wanted to leave, we've got about 3 minutes or so and I wanted to have some fun at the end with you with some quirky questions. So for each of these, you got about a minute or so to explain your answer if you want, but it's kind of like a lightning round, if you will. The first one is, because you have so much experience with this, the first one is what's your favorite movie or TV show that features space?

EC: “For All Mankind” on Apple TV.

GR: And what is so special about that, quickly?

EC: It just feels, it is far-fetched, but it feels when you're watching it, it feels so real in the moment, like you can actually feel like it's really, it's, you can feel like it's really happening, like it's incredible. I just love it. My favorite season, I think, was season, was it season two? It was when they were in the 1980's, not the happiest season, but definitely I was like, wow, this show is incredible. You feel like you're just in, your present there in the moment, I love it. for mankind.

GR: I haven't seen that one. I'll have to check it out, yeah, okay. So my next one is, what about a favorite novel that is about space or features space in some way?

EC: Oh, wow. I read so much nonfiction about space, it's hard to talk about fictional books. There was a book, God, this is a kind of a trashy one, “The Cape” by Martin Caidin. Martin Caidin wrote a lot of space books, he was kind of a big personality in Cape Canaveral, but he wrote a book called, “The Cape”, and it's sort of about sabotage at Cape Kennedy. And it's just it's kind of trashy in some parts, but I love it. If you want to sort of get a sense of what 1960's, early 1970's Cape Canaveral, Cape Kennedy was like, just read that book. It's a really cool time capsule. I love that era. So it's a neat book. There's a few other books like by James Michener, “Space”. I'll admit I haven't gone through the whole book, but I liked it. I liked what I read. So those are probably my top two fictional ones.

GR: Interesting, okay. And then last is, and this one may be the toughest one for you. We've got about a minute left. What about a song that's about space or space travel? What's your favorite song in this regard?

EC: Moon Age Daydream by David Bowie. Most people are like oh, Space Oddity. I'm like, no. Moon Age Daydream is the song for me, that song is my favorite, I love it that song is incredible. And it's also used in, “For All Mankind” to great effect in the first season so I love it. That's my favorite space song.

GR: You've made two sales with me here today, in addition to your book, which I already have, and that is checking out that, “For All Mankind” and now I got to check out that new Bowie song because I was sure that you were going to say either Space Oddity or Rocket Man, so you surprised me there. That was fantastic. Well, that was Emily Carney and again, her new book is titled, "Star Bound: A Beginner's Guide to the American Space Program, from Goddard's Rockets to Goldilocks Planets and Everything in Between". It's a great story and it's about something terribly important in our history. So, Emily, thanks so much for taking the time to talk with me.

EC: Thank you. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. Have a great day, thank you so much.

GR: Yeah, it's a pleasure talking to you. You've been listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media, conversations in the public interest.

On this week's episode of the Campbell Conversations, Grant Reeher speaks to City of Syracuse Mayor Ben Walsh, who is entering the final year of his second term in office.

Grant Reeher holds a discussion on the recent election with Sean O'Keefe who holds the Phanstiel Chair in Strategic Management and Leadership at Syracuse University's Maxwell School of Citizenship, and Phil Palmesano who reperesents the New York State's 132nd Assembly District.

In the first half of the 19th century, central New York was a hotbed of reform, social and spiritual movements, earning the nickname "the burned over district." This week, Grant Reeher talks with Marilyn Higgins, author of "Dreams of Freedom: An Irishwoman's Story of Love, Justice, and a Young Nation Coming Apart."

Program transcript:

Grant Reeher: Welcome to the Campbell Conversations. I'm Grant Reeher. My guest is Marilyn Higgins. She was the Chief Economic Development Officer for National Grid and later, Syracuse University. She's with me today because she's just published a new novel, it’s her first book titled, "Dreams of Freedom: An Irish Woman's Story of Love, Justice, and a Young Nation Coming Apart". Marilyn has also been involved in a number of philanthropic endeavors that are related to the period of upstate history that she's writing about. Marilyn, welcome to the program and congratulations on the book.

Marilyn Higgins: Thank you very much.

GR: Well, it's great to have you. So let me just ask you a couple of basic questions to start. Why did you get the notion to write this book when you did?

MH: The pandemic. Like millions of other people, I wanted to write a book all my life. I'd taken probably 20 different writing courses. I never could settle down to do it, pandemic, put myself in the chair and went at it.

GR: All right. Well, at least some good things came out of it, I guess. I have heard that story before about the pandemic with writers. But I want to push you a little bit, you had two substantial and successful careers as Chief Economic Development Officer for two large regional organizations, National Grid, Syracuse University. And writing a book is hard, you know, I know that you said you've been trying it, so, you know, what do you think about, was it that the pandemic that sort of allowed you to do it other than just having the time?

MH: Well, I've always, I love upstate New York. I am so glad I never left, a lot of the people I went to high school with did, you know, because it was the down economic times. I particularly when I worked for Niagra Mohawk, I got to visit all the little towns and villages on either side of the thruway and meet with the mayor in the diner and go to the library. And I was, I remain completely enthralled with the people and the little towns and villages of upstate New York. And honestly, I think we're missing from the creative stage. There's not a lot of books that are set in upstate New York. I think, “Ironweed” in Albany maybe snd Richard Russo did some stuff in the Mohawk Valley. But even the movie Harriet Tubman, Auburn is hardly even in it, it's mostly in Maryland. And when I think of the momentous things that happened here, I think we're too absent.

GR: Yeah, I think it's a good observation. Well, let's talk about some of the things that are in your book. It's about a certain period in history, and we'll get into that. But your book’s main characters, they go on this whirlwind tour of many of the major social upheavals and movements that came through upstate New York in the 1800’s before the Civil War. And I've read some of the histories of that time period. And as far as I can tell in this book, most of it's here. I mean, you're sort of showing the region and why it was known as the burn-over district during that time period. So just to start with, just give our listeners a brief overview of some of the different movements that swept through this area at that time.

MH: Well, this was, in terms of inventiveness, the Silicon Valley of its day. And in terms of thinking and movements, nothing in this nation parallels what happened within 120 to 150 miles along either side of the Erie Canal during this period. It's only 36 years my book covers, and in that time whole religious movements from the Mormons to the Millerites to the Shakers were formed that lived to this day, I think there's 17 million Mormons today. The women's movement was born here at Seneca Falls, the abolitionist movement. This was the hotbed of abolitionism in the whole nation. And the largest funder of the Underground Railroad lived nine miles up the road from me here in Peterboro, New York. Massive things that changed the country forever along with penicillin was invented here. Water impermeable cement was invented here. The things that happened in this corridor during that time changed not just America, it changed the world and it made New York City what it is, because it's very possible the Civil War could have turned out differently if we didn't have the Erie Canal. The Erie Canal made New York the port city, otherwise it would have been New Orleans. And when you think about what occurred, and then 7 million immigrants came along this canal in a 36 year timeframe, and that's a tiny little sliver of time. And the people who lived here, I mean, you had Frederick Douglass, Ulysses S. Grant, Harriet Tubman, Garrett Smith, all, they might have been on the same canal boats, we don't know. They were all here at the same time and they knew one another.

GR: People like John Brown and Samuel May, yeah, yeah. So, a follow up to that then. I mean, particularly I’m thinking about the spiritual and the reform movements and the like, the abolitionist movement was really radical for its time and the most radical elements of the abolitionist movement were here. What was it about this area, I mean, is there something in the water? I mean, what is the reason for this?

MH: I have a personal belief about why this happened. I've read many, many books about it. Personally, I believe that, just not unlike Silicon Valley, this influx of new people with these diverse ideas, they, to migrate to America from Europe, took a special kind of person. They came here and they were ready to throw off the constraints of the past. And many of them came with Calvinistic religious feelings that, you know, their future was predetermined. Well, they make this trip across the ocean and they come up the Hudson River and across the Erie Canal and they go, oh, I'm not predetermined, I'm making my own future. So they experimented with utopian communities, Skaneateles, the Oneida Mansion House. They experimented with their religious beliefs and I think it was because there were so many new diverse people in one place at one time who were really brave people.

GR: Yeah. Thinking of the Oneida community, I mean, that would be in the category of, I guess, relationship and sexual radicalism.

MH: Right, yeah.

GR: So let's talk about the characters and the plot, because this is sort of the context in which all this is happening. But without spoiling anything for our listeners, because we do want to sell your book. So just give me a brief what summary of what’s going on.

MH: Well, the main character is a young Irish, dark Irish woman named Aileen O'Malley. And she comes here to find her indentured father and her kidnaped half siblings and she knows they're along the Erie Canal corridor. She's sort of imperious, was raised as pretty privileged person in her grandmother's home in Ireland. And she comes to America with some real strict Catholic beliefs with a mission in mind. And she learns about America bit by bit by traveling along this canal. And it changes her and it creates drama. She witnesses slaves, enslaved people committing suicide. She witnesses shakers, dancing. She witnesses all of these things that completely throw her belief system up in the air. And she finds many similarities between some of the social problems in Ireland, her home, and what was happening here. She also identifies with the Oneida women that she meets. The Haudenosaunee, as you know, was a matriarchal culture, that shocked her. She had never seen women in charge. Women pick the leaders, what? You know, that's the opposite of what she had experienced in Ireland. But she learns about the Oneida people and she's very taken with them. And her spirituality grows and changes as time goes on. And she eventually learns that she needs to take a stand and fight for justice herself because she doesn't want her new country to be what her old country was.

GR: Interesting. You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher and I'm speaking with Marilyn Higgins, author of a new book titled "Dreams of Freedom: An Irish Woman's Story of Love, Justice, and a Young Nation Coming Apart". I like that angle of how the new country and the movements are changing her, but then she has the impact back on them and then going back to her old country as well, that's a nice blending of things. Well, I want to ask you a question about this genre of historical fiction and I've read some other pieces like this. I read one about, that was based in the Ulysses S. Grant administration, that was quite good. And often the authors are very careful to make sure that the historical context that they are embedding their stories in are accurate. So that in a way it's fiction, but it's also a real history as well. How did you approach that for this book?

MH: Exactly the way you're describing. I have been reading and researching the Erie Canal since I was a teenager. I read every book that's ever been written on it. I've been serving on the Erie Canal Corridor Commission for 20 plus years. I have lots of history, and I learned lots of history from the little towns and villages along the canal. So to me, because I feel upstate New York is so absent from the creative stage, I thought the way to reach more people was to make it a dramatic story, because it was dramatic. But it seems to me that might be, I hope, a way to reach more people about what happened here. And I wanted to do it in a way that would draw people in. I would love Aileen O'Malley to become to the Erie Canal what Anna of Green Gables is to Prince Edward Island. Do you know what I mean? I want the stories to teach the history.

GR: And so what methods did you use? You have this background, you had all this on the ground sort of research through participating in different activities. What other kinds of things did you do? I guess you were doing a lot of reading during COVID, but…

MH: Yes, but I also had a wonderful coach because I'd never written a book before. And he gave me a way of approaching this. I took book charts, and across the top I put the years. And then in the next line down, I put the major events that I saw happening. And then at the bottom, I put her evolution as a human being. And then I lined those up in slices and started writing. That's how I did it.

GR: Well, I'm working on something that's kind of similar, so maybe I should go have you as a coach now because you just gave me you just gave me an idea. So I had this question about what you came across when you were writing. You're obviously well versed in upstate history, you just explain that again when you started the book, you had that already. But I was curious, did you learn anything in the course of researching and writing this book that totally surprised you that you didn't know before about the area?

MH: No, honestly, as soon as something comes out and the burned over district or, you know, an academic book, I’ve read the children's books, you know, on the Erie Canal, it's been a passion of mine for a really long time. Now, what I did instead, I went to these places when I was doing the work on the book. I drove to Palmyra, I went to Hill Cumorah, I stayed in an inn in Fairport along the Erie Canal. I mean, I went and experienced more of these places. But did I learn anything brand new? I don't think so.

GR: Well, that experience is probably important. You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher, and I'm talking with Marilyn Higgins, the former Chief Development Officer for Syracuse University, is the author of a new book titled, "Dreams of Freedom: An Irish Woman's Story of Love, Justice, and a Young Nation Coming Apart" and we've been discussing her book. So I wanted to circle back to the different movements and causes that swept through upstate New York in the first half of the 19th century. And, you know, we've already mentioned this, but some of them are really out there. And one of them that has always fascinated me is the Millerites. And so just remind our listeners of what those folks were about.

MH: Well, they were the ones who believed the world was coming to an end. And, you know when you think about it in a practical way, these people, their lives had been so changed that they were susceptible to believing that, gee, this might be it, this might be the end. The thing that's interesting about the Millerites is that they announced when it was going to happen and when it didn't happen, they announced it was going to happen again (laughter).

GR: Right. It was like, oh, we just we just got the year wrong.

MH: Right, right! People missed it. You know, it's very, very interesting. Something else I just realized is that you asked me if something surprised me, and I just remembered something that did.

GR: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Let's hear it.

MH: I did not know that there were these large African-American farming communities in upstate New York. There was a town called Florence right off, like where 81 is in Central Square, an 80 family African-American farming community. Successful, and it was founded by Garrett Smith because he wanted people to own land so they could vote.

GR: Right.

MH: And they started these farming communities. And there were others in western New York too. But I think that's kind of an untold piece of history. And I think that…

GR: …No, go ahead, finish your thought.

MH: I learned that from a teacher in the Camden School District. She was the one who told me about that and I researched it and it just absolutely floored me. So that's in my book, too.

GR: Yeah. I think in one of the books I read, there was a casual or side mention of that and that there was a story about one of the boys or young men who was it came from that community and went to one of Garrett Smith's schools as I recall. So back to the Millerites though, so one of the things that I found fascinating about it was, not only did they think the world was going to end, but they really believed it and that they, some of them sold their worldly possessions. And then on the day that it was going to end, they got out and laid out on their roof and just…

MH: Yep.

GR: And then it was like you know, I reminded me of the scene from Little Big Man where the, you know, the guy doesn't quite die. (laughter)

MH: Yes! Exactly, exactly. It was well, you know, that's a great example. 6,000 to 8,000 people with no mass transportation would gather and have these revival meetings that lasted for six or seven days. There were still panthers and bears in the woods here in upstate New York. I mean, traveling to get to these Millerite gatherings and other gatherings was not an easy thing. But people did it. Now, they also had no other form of entertainment. So I think there's an interesting parallel between religion and entertainment that could be drawn there.

GR: Well, the famous preacher at the time was it Finley, I think, right?

MH: Grandison Finney.

GR: Finney, Charles Finney, yeah. He was the one that drew the big crowds, right. So I'm going to switch gears a little bit on you now. And we're going to come up to the present and think about what you learned and what you know about that period of New York and thinking about now in upstate New York. And so I wanted to get your, not only your historian's take, but your business development take on the current situation here in central New York, and particularly, you probably know what's going to come out of my mouth next, the coming of Micron and its full impact on the Syracuse area. It's been described by many as absolutely historic in proportion, not just something that is different in magnitude, but it's so big that it's going to fundamentally change the area. And so I wanted to ask you, because I think you'd be particularly well positioned to comment on this, do you think that we may be embarking on a new era for this part of upstate New York?

MH: Unquestionably. I was involved in recruiting AMD to Saratoga, the first chip plant that came to upstate New York with a great team of people. There was about eight of us who worked for seven years to get that chip plant here. And I watched what happened. And as it developed, I think, well, there's still some political, but I think we're really lucky to have Ryan McMahon who was so aggressive and went after that project. But let me be very clear, I've watched these things be built. I stood on a hill and watched a mile long train of cement mixers going into that site. And this is four times that big. This is, people will get out of two years of college and make $125,000 - $130,000 a year. This regrows the middle class. It regrows the technology base of the region. It regrows, changes the leadership, I believe in the region. Somebody told me there was going to have to be 37 new gas stations to just handle the population growth. And I think that, I'm also really impressed that there's some planning going on and instead of just like wild growth, you know, some good planning going on to plan for this. But yeah, this will, upstate New York, this is revolutionary and it's going to happen. It's the biggest project in the United States of America.

GR: Yeah, I think there are too many people at too many different high positions in government that have too much at stake for this not to get through.

MH: Exactly.

GR: Well, but here's a concern, possible concern. I mean, maybe it's a good problem to have, I don't know. But do you think that with all this, that this area of central-upstate New York might lose some of its distinctive identity characteristics, that we might become, in a sense, more generic if we have all this advancement?

MH: Not if we're smart about it. I mean, I would be horrified if I thought we were just going to become like mega suburbia, quite frankly. I mean, and lose the wonderful things we have. But I live in this little village of Canastota, which is as authentic as it gets, let me tell you. And we're talking about Micron and how to prepare for it. I think the towns and villages are really looking at their own strengths and weaknesses where this new development is concerned. And I think the planning that the county has undertaken, I give Ryan a lot of credit for hiring planners, looking at development. Can you imagine what Brewerton can be, a riverfront community five miles away from this site? It'll be fabulous. And good planning is taking place, and I'm encouraged by that.

GR: If you've just joined us, you're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. And my guest is Canastota author Marilyn Higgins, whose new book is titled, "Dreams of Freedom: An Irish Woman's Story of Love, Justice, and a Young Nation Coming Apart". Well, I also have to ask you this question. What do you think your characters, particularly your main character there in your book, would make of the current levels of political passion that we're seeing, both the negative ones and the positive ones that we're seeing in this election cycle? Do you think would be familiar to them in some way?

MH: Very familiar.

GR: They wouldn't be wrong footed by this then.

MH: No, no. I mean, this is, my book is written in the period of time with all the political hauntings that created the Civil War. And, you know, there were some things people could never agree upon. This is as close, this period of time we're in right now, in my view, this is as close to that as we have ever come. People can't have conversations over the kitchen table. I think it's really due to a lot of other reasons than that was then. I think that it was more economic and geographic and all that kind of thing. I think now it's a lot due to social media and algorithms. But I do think it would be familiar to Aileen O'Malley to have people unable to converse and have good, healthy discussion about her differences.

GR: Yeah, there's a story by, and it's one of the famous authors from upstate New York, but it's, maybe you can tell me but called, “Copperhead” and it was turned into a movie as well. But it was, you know, someone who didn't support the union and the Civil War, didn't want the Civil War, but was living up here in upstate New York. And the conflict that that family went through, it was very, very interesting, very similar to this. Well, let me ask you a question about where you get your love of history from. I mean, it's clear that you have a love of history. Where do you think it originated from? Was it the experience that you had professionally taking you to all these different towns, or did it predate that?

MH: It predated that. My dad grew up on the Armstrong Farm near Green Lake. It later became (Alverna) Heights, the nuns owned it. And we would walk there when I was a little girl sometimes and he would tell me stories about taking a team of horses down the hill to the canal and cutting out ice and dragging it up the hill and putting it in the coal house. And he would take me to Pompey, to the field days, etc. And I think he started it, I’ve just always been fascinated with the history here.

GR: So we've got about 3 minutes left or so. I want to squeeze two more questions in if I can. And the first one is, hopefully we don't have another huge resurgence of COVID. But I wondered if you do have thoughts for another book.

MH: I have a great idea for another book. But I'll tell you, the self-publishing business, I was an executive. I had a secretary. I don't know how to do all this, uploading this. The self-publishing world is challenging for me. So I don't know, I probably would write another book, but I don't know if I will go through this process again unless there's enough interest in this book to make it worth my while.

GR: Well, I have to say, though, physically, the book, you've done a very nice job with it. I mean, it you know, it looks and feels like any other book. Well, in about the last couple of minutes or so, I know you've been involved in a lot of different philanthropic and public service kinds of things, but one in particular caught my eye, this Freedom Walk. And I wonder if you could just take the last little bit of time and tell our listeners about that.

MH: I'd be delighted. In 1835, and this is in my book, the New York State Abolitionists were meeting in Utica for the first time and they were ransacked and run out of the meeting. They were literally physically assaulted and driven out because there were people in Utica who didn't like abolitionists. They were literally, with the help of Garrett Smith, put on a canal boat, brought up the canal, got off in Canastota and walked nine miles up the hill to Peterboro where they formed the New York State Anti-Slavery Society. An amazing thing there were singing freedom songs, we have farmer’s diaries that describe this. They were singing freedom songs as they went up that hill. That struck me and I thought we should maybe do a reenactment to honor that history. And we started that three years ago and it's been great.

GR: And what time of the year does it happen, in summer, I assume?

MH: October, we just had it, the first weekend in October. We had about a hundred people there. The first year Felisha Legette-Jack came and spoke. Last year, Mel Stith came. This year, Otis Jennings did the remarks. It's a really wonderful experience.

GR: Oh, well, that's great. Well, that was Marilyn Higgins. And again, her new book is titled, "Dreams of Freedom: An Irish Woman's Story of Love, Justice, and a Young Nation Coming Apart". And it's sort of timed to match the 200th anniversary of the Erie Canal, which is next year, as I understand you told me, right?

MH: Yes. The 200th anniversary of the Wedding of the Waters is coming up, so we'll have a whole year of celebrations.

GR: So check out the book. You'll learn a lot about the area and its history and you’ll also get a good story in the process. Marilyn, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me, this was a lot of fun.

MH: It really was. Thank you, Grant.

GR: You've been listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media, conversations in the public interest.

Crime and safety have been at the center of a lot of our debates during this election cycle, both at the presidential level and here in New York. This week, Grant Reeher talks with Jason Springs, a professor of religion at the University of Notre Dame. He's the author of "Restorative Justice and Lived Religion: Transforming Mass Incarceration in Chicago."

Program Transcript:

Grant Reeher: Welcome to the Campbell Conversations. I'm Grant Reeher. Crime and safety has been at the center of a lot of our political debates, both at the presidential level and also here in New York state. My guest today is part of a movement advocating a different approach to criminal justice, in particular, how to deal with offenders, their victims, and the communities in which those offenses occur. Jason Springs is a professor of religion, ethics, and peace studies at the University of Notre Dame, and is the author of a new book titled “Restorative Justice and Lived Religion: Transforming Mass Incarceration in Chicago.” Professor Springs, welcome to the program.

Jason Springs: Thanks for having me on. Pleasure to be with you.

GR: We're glad you could make the time. So let's just start with some basics. Tell us what restorative justice is, briefly.

JS: Right. Well, to define restorative justice, it helps to begin by actually contrasting it with the approach to justice that the US criminal legal system is currently based on, and that is referred to as retributive justice. So a retributive legal system focuses on three questions, namely, what laws have been broken? Who did it? And what is that person to deserve. Retributive justice thinks of justice as payback for wrongdoing that takes the form of punishment so somebody caused harm to somebody and therefore, it's necessary to cause harm to them to balance the scales of justice, and hopefully to deter future wrongdoing. Now, in contrast to a retributive account of justice, restorative justice focuses on holding people accountable, but doing so in ways that aim to repair the harm that was caused through wrongdoing, that aim to address the needs of the harm parties, as well as all the people affected, and ultimately to promote healing and open constructive paths moving forward. So in contrast, restorative justice is what we call victim and survivor-centered in that it asks a fundamentally different set of questions. It asks, who's been harmed, what are their needs and whose obligations are these? And then finally, what are the processes by which those needs can be met and harms repaired?

GR: Interesting. Okay. So, um, where did this, I mean, obviously, uh, We could probably track the ideas behind this very far back in time, maybe, you know, even in the Bible, but, but in terms of a practice, where, where did this originate?

JS: Right. Well, there's a couple of very highly influential, uh, sources that, uh, from which the current kind of social movement in the United States comes. Um, You find it developed in the work of a, uh, well, restorative justice and criminologist and restorative justice specialist by the name of Howard Zare, working as far back as the 1970s, wrote a very influential book. He actually piloted and developed some of the practical programs in Elkhart, Indiana, just one town over from South Bend where I work at Notre Dame. Another of the most influential. sources was put into practice in South Africa in the wake of apartheid and specifically the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which unfolded over several years, used restorative justice as its guiding idea, set of principles and practices to try to move beyond the The deep harms and the violence and the violation of human rights that had been caused by South African apartheid. So if I were to identify two, the two most influential sources for the contemporary restorative justice movement in the United States, those would be the two.

GR: Interesting. And you anticipated one of the questions I wanted to ask you in the way that you defined restorative justice, but just follow up on it, I guess. You know, there, there is this longstanding debate here in the United States and around the world about whether we should be holding criminals individually responsible for their actions and try to deter others through the punishment. That's exactly the way you described the U.S. system or whether to view it through this broader societal lens. And it seems to me, Based on what I'm hearing that restorative justice kind of bridges both of those in a way because it's not, it's not like it's not saying let's not hold people accountable, but it's asking a different set of questions about that.

JS: That's exactly right. Um, accountability is the beating heart of restorative justice. And, but it, it reconceptualizes accountability in, in contrast to retributive justice because it says accountability needs, needs to be something that we actually. Uh, facilitate in meaningful ways and achievable ways by putting it into practice in ways that are constructive and again, promote healing for, for all the people involved. So all the people involved have a voice and a say, uh, in the process of recovery and to the extent possible, the repair of the harm. And what's interesting is that accountability as it occurs in the, the retributive. criminal legal system is in some ways, well, first of all, it's remarkably counterproductive. And in some ways, it's really kind of a sham accountability. Um, the adversarial framework of the criminal legal system, where you have a prosecutor and a defendant and the defendant might as well plead not guilty and force the other side to prove their case. So already from the you've got an orientation, which set which decreases an emphasis on accountability, or if it does, it facilitates some sometimes a kind of false accountability by incentivizing please please false please in many cases through plea bargaining. And then what you have is, you know, the result is punishment and punishment. We found is remarkably counterproductive. It actually causes more harm and raises rates of repeat offending among people who are in. swept into the system, uh, and come out often more harmed, more traumatized, and more likely to, well, engage in further wrongdoing on the far side of that.

GR: And on top of that, I guess, I would think You know, the victim hasn't gotten anything other than seeing the perpetrator going to jail. They haven't gotten, you know, if it's their property, they haven't gotten their property back necessarily or whatever it is, there hasn't been any real attempt to help them. And it sounds like this looks at that.

JS: Exactly. Uh, one of the things that restorative justice, one of the ways is described as victim and or survivor-centered in that it begins with the needs and the harms experienced by the victims and seeks, First and foremost to promote the repair and meeting of those needs in particular, but in the process it recognizes and conceptualizes these harms as relational in nature, even, even if like a victim and a wrongdoer never knew each other prior to this, they know each other now through the wrongdoing, but it can, but, and of course, restorative justice has a broader vision in which People living in a society together are in relationship with one another in some broader sense, though it may not be immediately relational. So it begins with the victim, the focus is on the experience of the victim and the needs of the victim, but it also focuses on the needs and the experience of the wrongdoer and the community more broadly. It conceptualizes the community as a participant in this, because all of these have to be drawn into the process in order for the] repair and the accountability to be meaningful and to move forward in a productive and a constructive direction.

GR: You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reheer and I'm speaking with Jason Springs. He's a Notre Dame religion professor and the author of a new book titled “Restorative Justice and Lived Religion, Transforming Mass Incarceration in Chicago.” So, uh, I want to get into in a, in a little bit here of the, the details of how this works and the things that you examined in depth in Chicago. But let me ask this question first. Has restorative justice so far tended to be more successful for certain kinds of crimes versus others? Maybe that's violent versus property crime or some other, some other way you can distinguish it.

JS: Yeah. Well, I mean, what they've discovered is those who've studied this in a more formal way, Uh, is that it's actually been productive across all degrees of, of, of crime and, and degrees of harm. Um, how you, uh, the ways that it is, is helpful and productive, differ, you know, for. There are people who work with restorative justice in the case is a violent crime and find that it is actually remarkably transformative and has an impact even in those cases. Um, the legal system itself recognizes that in lower-level nonviolent forms of crime, restorative justice is a much better way and the, the, the, Simply putting people into jail and cycling them into the system itself. So this is often referred to as a diversionary approach to restorative justice. It diverts people who have been brought into the system for nonviolent low-level offenses, maybe Property crime or maybe sometimes a crime related to drug use or abuse or something like this, and it diverts them out of the system and this even system actors recognize is a much-needed path to it to a criminal legal system that has run amok and grown into exploded into really mass incarceration. There are cases as well where restorative justice practices have been implemented. In prisons and in jails among high-level offenders and have had a remarkable success rate in, um, you know, humanizing the conditions in which the people are incarcerated and being punished and which promotes repair of harm for the victims. And the survivors. So people just don't see the person who caused the harm to their loved one or to themselves just thrown in jail and caged up for an indefinite amount of time and then been told by the prosecutor, the actors in the system, Hey, you've got your we put the person in prison. We're punishing them as hard as we can. That will give you satisfaction. And actually, it's been studied and shown that that's remarkably likely. unsatisfactory to victims. It leaves victims wondering numerous things, seeking truth with questions that never get answered and experiencing harms and trauma of their own. So even at the high levels where restorative justice for severe and violent Crimes may be paired with certain aspects of incarceration or separating a person from society. Even there in those cases, and in cases of violent crime, it's been shown to ha be remark remarkably more effective, I should say, than the system as we currently have it.

GR: That's interesting, and I'll just share with you and with our listeners too that, uh, here in Onondaga County, where, uh, the program is centered, uh, in part, we have a number of alternative courts that speak to exactly what you're talking about, and for, for different kinds of offenses, and so that it, it seems to be something that is catching on. Well, let's, let's talk about that. Thank you. What you actually immersed yourself in, which is the research method you used, it's sort of participant observation or participant, you know, participant researcher, and you dedicate your book actually to the folks that you, you hung out with the precious blood ministry of reconciliation. Tell us about the work that organization's done.

JS: Yeah, happy to. So the Precious Blood Ministry of Reconciliation is located on the south side of Chicago. It's in a neighborhood there called Back of the Yards. And, uh, Back of the Yards is a neighborhood that has, for historical reasons that I recount in the book, as well as contemporary reasons, uh, terms of high poverty rates, low access to resources, poor school, school resources and things like this. These are, this is a neighborhood and the surrounding neighborhoods are very much enmeshed in various forms of violence. Uh, it's gang violence, um, as well as, uh, Policing, over-policing, and there are numerous instances of police abuse of force and targeting, targeted policing that I document in the book in this neighborhood. And starting in about 2002, there was a group of brothers and sisters of the Precious Blood Order, it's a Roman Catholic order, who went to this neighborhood and kind of started a community center. They got to know some of the people in the neighborhood, and they, uh, Within the following few years, as a part of establishing this community center, they began to practice restorative justice. The order itself is oriented towards addressing forms of conflict, destructive conflict, and violent conflict. You know, they see themselves coming out of a certain aspect of the Christian religious tradition and understand themselves to be motivated by kind of their understanding of Well, the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament is what it boils down to, and Jesus's command to love your neighbor. And so they see that as, as focusing specifically on responding in constructive and healing ways where there has been destructive conflict. So in this neighborhood, and over the last 20 years now, uh, they have Founded this community center and in a way that really made the local neighborhood people a part of the everyday operations of that center and did so in a way where they would implement restorative justice practices to address much of the harm, the destructive conflict and the violence that the people in the neighborhood were experiencing. So I went in there to the neighborhood. I got to know the folks working at the center. I got to know that, through that, many of the folks living in the neighborhood and saw over the course of about five or six years of field research exactly what they were doing and coming to an understanding and then describing for the purposes of the book what, what they were doing and what I was seeing to be a kind of transformational impact upon the neighborhood and the surrounding community that this initiative had.

GR: You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reheer, and I'm talking with Jason Springs. He's a professor of religion, ethics and peace studies at the University of Notre Dame, and he's the author of a new book titled “Restorative Justice and Lived Religion: Transforming Mass Incarceration in Chicago,” and we've been discussing his book. So before the break. Jason, you were telling the story of how this works in Chicago with the Precious Blood Ministry of Reconciliation. Give us a sense, though, of on the ground, how this might work. Maybe there's one example you could use, but I'm, I'm sure that, that, that we're all interested in hearing how, you know, how does, what actually happens to the offender? What, what actually happens to the victim in this?

JS: Right. Well, I certainly appreciate the question and the chance to get into the details. I'll speak in specifically about one of the most widely forms that the practice of restorative justice take takes in this center and in the surrounding centers throughout Chicago. And it's called. the peacemaking circle practice. And this is this, this practice of restorative justice is traced back to, um, Indigenous communities in North America as a practice of justice that, that much to the spirit of restorative justice aims to kind of heal and repair harm rather than just to punish. And so the Precious Blood Center and similar restorative justice initiatives in community will use peacemaking circles where they actually sit in circle together over a period of time. They have what's called a talking piece and they pass it in a particular direction and only the person who has the talking piece can speak at any time and through several rounds of passing the talking piece that is led by a circle keeper. So the circle can be designed for a particular purpose. It can be, it's not necessarily over a destructive conflict. Circles can be held for any number of reasons to celebrate an accomplishment, to welcome someone to the community. Um, but in this context, very frequently they're used to repair and respond to destructive harm and conflict. Um, and then Through process of sharing and building this community in the circle so that people understand who we are and where each other is coming from their story, their background, they then can address the instances of harm and conflict and come through consensus to a response, a response that is focused on accountability that speaks to the needs and the harms of the person who was harmed, but also works constructively for the person who caused the harm. So this is kind of the particular practice, and these were not just used at the Precious Blood, peacemaking circles pretty ubiquitous in a number of restorative justice initiatives and centers that have emerged across Chicago, and which work integratively, in effect creating a kind of Network or web of restorative justice initiatives that work together and provide a meaningful alternative to the standard punitive approach to harm and justice in Chicago.

GR: So if I'm an offender, I am part of the circle or I, how do, how do I fit into it?

JS: Yes, you're part of the as the offender would be a part of the circle the person who's harmed if they so choose in some cases they may they may not but if that's the case usually you would have kind of what they call a surrogate person who's who has experienced the that kind of harm, uh, at some point to participate in the circle, but you'd have members of the community to often have family members or mentors or someone who's meaningful to each of the primary participants in the con, in the, in the situation of harm to participate in the circle process. And over the course of several hours. In some cases, they recur over multiple days, depending on the nature and severity of the conflict. But, uh, yeah, all the participants, nobody's required to participate, but, um, it is voluntary. But, uh, you know, it's practiced in a way where this has become kind of the norm in these community centers and in these communities. And it's really begun to get the attention of justices in the juvenile justice system there in Cook County, and even, you know, police as well.

GR: If you've just joined us, you're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. And my guest is Notre Dame religion professor, Jason Springs. So, obviously, there's going to be pushed back against this approach. And, uh, one, let me, let me give you one example of that I can think of that occurs to me. And this has to do with homicides in Chicago. So you're not necessarily. I'm proposing this for that, but, but there was an in-depth study that was done of every gun homicide in Chicago a few years back by the Washington Post. And what the, what the study found was that the vast majority, and this is when the, the, the homicides spiked in Chicago. What they found was the vast majority of these were committed by criminals who already had extensive records, including records of violence with guns. And one of the conclusions of that, at least the suggestion is that. There are then some kinds of people, mostly in gangs, who it seems pretty clear should be taken out of society before this can happen. Now, maybe a restorative justice approach would have prevented that person from going down that path, and I can see that being the argument for it. But would restorative justice also acknowledge that, you know, there are some cases where you just need to take the person out of society?

JS: Yeah, there are different views on this. Um, the view that I encountered there in, um, in among the restorative justice initiatives across Chicago and certainly the Precious Blood Ministry Reconciliation was that, yes, in some cases there are, there are people who need to be separated for some period of time. Um, because of, you know, the nature and character of what they've done. Um, those are still provide opportunities to apply restorative justice in those separated situations and restorative justice processes can be implemented and are implemented in in car sites of incarceration as a way of. Building relationships that enable people who have done significant and even major harm to others to come to an understanding of what they've done to come to an under deeper understanding of why they did what they did, and maybe the harms that they experienced out of which. Uh, that harm caught. They caused the harm they did. You know, one of the sayings that I encountered pretty, pretty, uh, widely there and across Chicago was, hurt people, hurt people. Uh, that often the people who cause harm and engage in wrong have themselves suffered various forms of harm. And restorative justice is provides, even in context where people have to be separated out for some period of time, processes of understanding and healing and repair and coming to terms often with, with the great degree of trauma that those people also carry. So even in those contexts, it's implemented and, uh, has been done so to a significant success.

GR: Well, we got about three minutes left. I want to make sure we get this last topic in because your book has as part of its title, lived religion, very, very thought-provoking phrase. You're a professor of religion after all. So, um, uh, how, how is this practice part of or tied to this broader thing that you call lived religion? Tell us what you mean by that and how it might change the way we approach this issue.

JS: Right. Well, the lived religion I use as a category that, uh, front approaches to the shared practices of restorative justice. In some cases, people participate in restorative justice, as you mentioned earlier in our conversation, because they have particular religious beliefs or come from a particular religious tradition, which focuses or emphasizes the values that are at the heart of restorative justice. But in many times, people come to restorative justice and say, Hey, I'm not religious in background, but I recognize that there's something important going on here, and I can participate in these practices as well. So for me, the concept of lived religion, I use it to describe a kind of what I just, what I call a spiritual dimension or dynamic. Many people who are say, I'm not religious, but I, Participate in this and I see the value and there's something very significant going on here. We'll say, I will describe it as in kind of spiritual terms. And as I encountered these descriptions, I found that really the the form of an approach to restorative justice implemented in these communities was really What had a kind of greater quality, a holistic quality, understood restorative justice as an approach to community and being in community together and this deeper sense of relationship and didn't practice restorative justice and this may be the key point as like a tool in a toolbox for mediating conflict. It can do that, but this larger sense that emphasized relationship building and building community both in response to harm, but also as a way of preempting and proactively addressing the causes of harm really was what I'm getting at when I talk about this spiritual relational aspect that I described with the term lived religion.

GR: I can see how it would be a very powerful experience, uh, particularly if everybody was authentically. Sharing what they were thinking and feeling. Well, really, just a minute left. Let me squeeze one last question. This sounds Very promising, but it also sounds very labor-intensive. How do you see this being scaled up to the entire criminal justice system?

JS: You know, that's a great question. I did mention one of the things that I just discovered in my research, uh, I launched into my research in Chicago back in 2015, I had no idea what I would discover. However, what I discovered is that those. It wasn't just being implemented in local grassroots community-based ways, but as I described that these initiatives had already begun scaling up by, in a way that both preserved their individual autonomy, autonomy as initiatives, but also integrated their efforts and resources across the city and even invited and elicited participation from juvenile justices in particular, Look, what we're doing is not sustainable. We need to work with these community-based efforts and this web, a network that has emerged across the city. So in the book, I hold this up as an example that could be implemented in other cities and maybe scaled up across the country eventually.

GR: Well, it sounds very promising, and we'll have to see. Uh, that was Notre Dame professor Jason Springs. And again, his new book is titled “Restorative Justice and Lived Religion: Transforming Mass Incarceration in Chicago.” Pick it up and take a read. It may actually change the way you think about criminal justice. Professor Springs, thanks so much for taking the time to talk with me.

JS: Thank you for having me on today. It's been a pleasure.

GR: Me too. You've been listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media, Conversations in the Public Interest.

On this week's episode of the Campbell Conversations, Grant Reeher holds a debate between two challengers vying for departing Senator John Mannion's 50th District seat in the New York State Senate, Republican Nick Paro and Democrat Chris Ryan.

Program transcript:

Grant Reeher: Welcome to the Campbell Conversations, I'm Grant Reeher. The departure of State Senator John Mannion, a Democrat, to challenge Republican Brandon Williams for Congress, has left open his 50th district seat in the New York State Senate. My guests today are the two candidates vying for that seat, Republican Nick Paro and Democrat Chris Ryan. Nick Paro has prior legislative and executive experience as a Town of Salina councilor and now as a Town Supervisor. Chris Ryan served on the Geddes town board and is now the minority leader in the Onondaga County Legislature. The 50th Senate district forms a ring around the northern half the city of Syracuse and extends north into Oswego County all the way to Lake Ontario. Legislator Ryan, Supervisor Paro, welcome to the program. Thanks for making the time to be with me.

Nick Paro: Thank you for having us.

Chris Ryan: Thank you.

GR: You bet. So, Legislator Ryan, I'll start with you. If you could be brief on this, what is the most crucial thing that is at stake in the voter’s decision between you and Supervisor Paro as a senator for the 50th district?

CR: Can you repeat the question?

GR: Yeah. What's the most crucial thing that's at stake here for the voters and deciding between the two of you?

CR: Well, I think, crucial is, I believe that our candidacy, my campaign, I believe that I bring a depth of experience. I've been elected for serving the public for nearly 20 years as a Town of Geddes, Geddes town councilman, then deputy supervisor in the Town of Geddes, now on the county legislature, former chair of the Public Safety Committee and now as a fore leader for the minority caucus. I think I have worked hard to work across the aisle. I believe in working in bipartisan ways to try to do the best for our constituencies and do what's right for central New York, whether it's matters of public safety or taxation or economic development and on and on and on. Also, one of the focal points, I believe, is bringing access, greater access to health care. Far too many uninsured and underinsured, so I think experience matters and I think I bring over nearly 20 years of experience.

GR: Thank you. Supervisor Paro, same question. What's the most crucial thing that's at stake for the voters here in deciding between the two of you?

NP: Central New York is ready for a very aggressive and loud voice representing them in Albany. Politics in New York State have shifted to probably a larger voting bloc. And downstate, you look at New York City, the Hudson Valley, Long Island, central New York really is looking for somebody that will represent them when they get to Albany. And, you know, I don't have 20 years of experience, I have only six. But one of the things I have proven in that time is, I am somebody that has a lot of, I've been actionable and I've been able to accomplish my goals, and I have been a very loud voice for the folks in my constituency. It's been evidenced by what I've been able to accomplish as the supervisor for the town of Salina. It's been evidenced by the press conferences that I've had calling out the state on their bail reform and other criminal justice policies and it's been evidenced by the fact that I successfully sued to stop the transfer of migrants into my community taking over a hotel. I think that is what we need. We need somebody that's going to go to Albany, that will be an advocate for central New York and also somebody that (is) not just going to fight, but also is going to be able to get things done and cut through the muck and accomplish the goals for central New Yorkers and I've proven I'm able to do that.

GR: All right, thank you. So, Legislator Ryan, I'll go back to you. You mentioned access to health care and you mentioned I think it was taxes and a couple of other issues. I did want to ask you, if you're elected, are there certain areas of policy that you would be specializing in and prioritizing in your first term? For example, you know, Senator May has a couple areas of specialization. She focuses on the environment, she also focuses on aging issues. Are there things that you would be specializing in when you got there?

CR: Yeah, absolutely. Number one, health care, it's certainly expands to many, many, many people in the district. Many whether you're in health care or you just have suffered from a lack of insurance, lack of uninsured, underinsured. We have far too many hospitals that are underwater because of Medicaid reimbursement. We have far too many underinsured. We have lack of access to primary care, we have lack of access to specialized care. We have seen a trend of nursing homes closing across the state. I think that we're heading in a bad spot. And, you know, we need to do better as a state we need to do better. And we need to expand that. We can't leave the central New Yorkers behind with limited access to health care or access to health care that's too far away or primary care providers or specialized care, nursing homes, adult long term care, that's part of it. Number two is labor, a labor workforce. I come from labor I've had a broad, broad base of labor support, whether it's health care unions, public sector unions, private unions, but also skilled trades. We're going to have, we have a very, very big economic development project coming here to the tune of anywhere from 40 to 100 billion dollars.

GR: You're talking about Micron there, you're talking about the Micron… yeah.

CR: We need to make sure that those people that are building that make sure that that's done on time, under budget, we meet that moment. And it's going to take a tremendous amount of state resources to do that, to help in that. So I look forward to tackling those two issues and also education as well. Thank you.

GR: All right, great. Supervisor Ryan, excuse me, Supervisor Paro, the same question there. You mentioned the bail reform. You mentioned being a loud voice for this particular area. So tell us a bit of specificity, loud voice for what? What would you be focusing on?

NP: Well, on my website, we have pretty in-depth policy positions on different things, affordability, education, health care. I listened to just Chris, obviously, his points regarding health care currently, you know, some of the things that I would like to see is increased telehealth opportunities for folks in the 50th Senate district. But one of the biggest things specifically for the 50 Senate district is the fact that Micron is coming. This is the Micron District, and there's going to be extraordinary economic growth as well as population growth in this region and making sure that we are positioning central New York to handle that growth while at the same time stewarding the growth so it's representative of how we here currently would like to see happen, is important. And that's kind of how I would represent something New York when I get to Albany is, look, we're recognizing that we're going to have these economic developments take place, but this is the vision that central New York wants for itself. How are we going to make sure that the state's investing in supporting that vision while at the same time allowing Micron and the other businesses that are coming here to flourish? So I don't know exactly specifically to the question of maybe what committees we’ll be on, I'm not sure yet. What I do know is I have a history of what I've been able to accomplish in Salina. And economic growth, commercial investment is something that we've been able to do very well. We have four different commercial corridors in Salina since I've been supervisor. Two of them are under construction right now to be enhanced. One of them will be done next year. And the fourth one along Seventh North Street is going to take a little bit of extra work because of the I-81 project. But we're looking at ways to make sure that we develop that out. So that's a little bit of experience that I have that will be transferred over into Albany when I get there, as well as transportation. I mean, I was on the losing end of the I-81 argument, and that's fair. I was an advocate for Salina, that was my job. But I think at the same time, I was able to leverage some of the points where Salina was going to be impacted to try to have conversations to offset some of those impacts. I think I can have that same voice on transportation needs because transportation needs are going to be extremely important as we have the investments from Micron and other companies. I know, Chris, you've mentioned it a few times, but if you look at the 31 corridor and if you go a little north a bit, a little bit of south of it, there's going to be some transportation investment that's going to be necessary. I would love to be part of those conversations and making sure that it, again, is a vision that central New York wants for itself.

GR: Yes, go ahead, Legislator Ryan, go ahead, jump in.

CR: Right. So I talk about that a lot also, meeting the needs, you know, that 81 and 31 right now, corridor, it's tough. And those residents in around that area are worried that's only going to get worse and I don't think it can get any better. So with that said, and we talked about this a lot, right, so we we're going to need some serious infrastructure needs and some, it's going to take some planning and we're going to have to ease that burden of traffic congestion when that project comes. You just have to, it's going to be too many people going into one little intersection, got to fix that, got to work on it.

GR: So, Legislator Ryan, let me stick with you. And you mentioned bipartisanship at the outset of our conversation. I wanted to ask you, what's the most important thing on which you broke from your party on and went with Republicans rather than what the Democrats would have liked to have seen?

CR: Well, I think there were, I don't know about breaking with the caucus and the Democrats. I just, when I say bipartisanship, I mean working with a certain degree of pragmatism. I understand that's how I approach government. That's how I approach government in the state. I've always been willing and able to, I guess, work across the aisle, whether it was working with then county executive Joanie Mahoney to enact a law limiting the take home pay for full time electeds. Working with some of my colleagues across the aisle on the on the redistricting, but also with matters also of public safety. I believe that, you know, and also some issues with taxation. Then former chairman of legislature and county legislator Jim Rowley, we made a budget amendment to return some of the surplus, the county surplus dollars back to taxpayers by way of tax break. You know, I guess that's the way, and I'm proud to have…

GR: …Okay. No, I have a good sense. So quick follow up to you though. And very specifically, is there any important vote that Senator Mannion took where you would have voted differently from Senator Mannion.

CR: Hmm. I can't go into one right now, but that doesn't mean that I would have agreed them. I would have to…yeah.

GR: I understand. No, I understand. I just wanted to give our listeners a sense of how you might fit in with him. Well, Supervisor Paro, same question to you about, is there something important you can point to where you either broke with the Republican Party or, you know, again, dramatically reached out and worked with Democrats.

NP: Yeah. So my job as supervisor is to find whoever I need to work with, to collaborate with to accomplish the goals that we have set out. And I got many examples. Obviously, Assemblywoman Hunter represents Salina in Albany currently, her and I have worked on multiple different projects where she's been able to steward grant funds into the town, whether it was extending a sidewalk or whether it's now for a pool over in the electronics neighborhood, Electronics Park Meadows neighborhood. Senator May was the senator when I first took over as supervisor. We worked together on parks project in Duerr (park), and then Senator Mannion is currently the senator for our town and him and I have had conversations. And one of the things that I advocated for when they were deciding to tear down 81 was looking at the thruway and making the thruway free between the Syracuse exits. And in fact, not only did Senator Mannion carry the bill for us, Assemblyman Magnarelli carried it in the Assembly. So we were able to work with two Democrats at the state level to carry a bill that they knew was important to the district. Additionally, the mayor in the Village of Liverpool, she's a Democrat, she just got elected, her and I are working extremely closely together. We did a joint application, what's called the local waterfront redevelopment plan, a state program. We were joint applicants on it, and we're working very closely. Her and I are both on that together to see a redevelopment within Salina and the village Liverpool so there is cohesion with that plan. Additionally, I have two Democrats there on my town board and we work extremely close together. In fact, they came in, they had a list of priorities, and I said, this is how we're going to be able to get this done for you. And we've been able to slowly tick those boxes and accomplish their priorities while it fits into, again, the overall vision for Salina.

GR: So let me jump in, and those are good examples too, like Legislator Ryan’s. And this question could be a little bit out of right field, perhaps, but our listeners are going to be familiar with this person I'm going to invoke, so that's why I'm invoking it. Are there any significant, I want to ask you if you would have voted differently from Senator Mannion on things, because there's I'm sure a lot of things you would have voted differently from. But I do want to ask you, are there any positions of former President Trump that he's running on that you would take issue? People will be more familiar with that.

NP: So obviously, Trump is running at a national stage. I like to talk about the issues that are directly important to the 50th Senate district. I like to talk about the issues that are important to my constituents here in New York State. Donald Trump represents a different platform of ideas. And I think there are extreme differences that he has that I may have. Again, I come from an old school Republican train of thought more of the Reagan era, so I would like to say that I'm a classical, I have more free market, laissez faire tendencies than I think we see some of the Republican Party currently has today. I still subscribe to those ideas. So on that front, those are probably some of my more policy differences with former President Trump.

GR: Okay, well, let me stay with you. And I want to ask you, if you're elected, you are going to be obviously in the minority party. You know, I don't think there's anybody predicting the state Senate's going to flip. And the Assembly almost may be at this point poured in concrete as a Democrat institution. And then, of course, you'll have a Democratic governor. So you're coming in with facing a solid wall of Democrats. What's going to be your strategy for being effective? Because you're not going to be supervisor, you're going to be one senator. So how are you going to leverage that? What's your strategy?

NP: I think even though I'm not the supervisor anymore, I think it's the same type of advocacy that I've shown. It's having that willingness to say these are the problems, they're not partisan issues. These are the problems that are facing essential New York district and finding people within the majority party that I can work with to accomplish these goals. One thing that's extremely important is, yes, Democrats have the majority of both the Assembly and the Senate and hey have the governor's mansion, but they have a supermajority. And that kind of also dictates the priorities within the Democrat conference. You have more of the left wing part of that party with a lot more power when you have a supermajority. When we take away the supermajority and in the Senate, only one seat is necessary to flip the supermajority just to a normal majority, you then shift that power to probably more of the moderate wing within the Democrat Party, folks within the Hudson Valley that have similar concerns to us upstate and we can then collaborate and have these conversations, so that way I can find partners, so that way we are able to accomplish what we need to. I have a history of collaboration. I have a history of actually being able to have these important conversations and being actionable on them. And I think that will transcend into state politics as well.

GR: You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher and I'm talking with the two candidates for the 50th district seat in the New York State Senate. Onondaga County Legislative Minority Leader Chris Ryan is the Democrat and town of Salina Supervisor, Nick Paro is the Republican. Legislator Ryan, I wanted to ask you this question about, in a sense being in the majority if you're elected in the Senate, and this picks up on what I was talking to Supervisor Paro before the break, but the Democrats have been in power or mostly in power in this state for many years. And every year the state is ranked as either the state with the highest taxes or among the top three states in terms of taxes. So for our listeners who are concerned about taxes, why should the Democrats have any credibility that they're going to be the ones to change this status? I mean, it just, it seems very hard for me to believe that Democrats are going to actually turn that battleship. What ideas will you bring, or do you do you have an interest in bringing ideas for that? Is it okay that the state continues to be the most taxed state in the country?

CR: No, no, the answer to the question is no. No, it's not okay. And I think to a certain extent, that needs to change. We need to grow business. We need to help business grow. We need economic development and we need to stop the exodus from our young people to leave, to go to other states. But I think that that's in the capacity, is I think that what you will find and what this district will have in me will be an advocate of everything that I've done on the county legislature in my previous experience, my 20 years experience, a mindset of less tax and spend. The mindset of a person who doesn't want to pay any more in taxes. I have four children, I have two in college, but, you know, I don't want to pay any more taxes than anybody. And more importantly, I don't want to have my daughter stay in the mid-Atlantic. I want her to come back this school year. I want her to come back to be a PA at SUNY Upstate, I want my sons to come back. So I think that we can do better, we should do better, we have to understand that. But there's also programs that need to be cut, those aren't easy. And so spending, where do you cut where do you fund? But those are good conversations. But I think it will serve this district very, very well to have a person in the majority who understands (unintelligible), who's been working like in the county for 13 years now. We have one of the lowest tax rates, if not the lowest tax rate in the history of Onondaga County. I'll continue to do that. I'm not going to change my policies from what I've been doing for 20 years, when I get down to it.

GR: Okay. And I did want to follow up because I wanted to join that answer to something you mentioned earlier about access to health care. And you were talking about uninsured and the underinsured. And I did want to ask you about Medicaid in particular in the state. The Medicaid program in the state is just simply incredibly expensive by comparison to any other state in the country. I mean, it's way more expensive per capita than California, for example, not exactly a super conservative state. So I just wanted to know and I'll put this to you, Supervisor Paro as well, but let Legislator Ryan answer it first. Are you willing to take a hard look at that program? Like, look at what services are provided? Because it's really just, when you look at it in comparison to other states, it it's the one thing that just stands out.

CR: Yes, yes. That's your question, yes, I am. Number two, because if you look at the concept, I guess the saying is, I guess something's got to give, right? So you have, like our hospitals, you have to treat people on Medicaid, but then they don't get the full Medicaid reimbursement. That's not a good business model and it's the same for our nursing homes, right? Or for, somebody an older, an elderly resident or elderly citizen goes into the nursing home and that nursing home that’s providing that care is literally getting, I think, don’t quote me, but like less than forty cents on the dollar, it's been decades. So we have to have a conversation because if those rates don't change, how can those institutions continue to survive? It's not a good business model. Or you just give them money at the back end and then there it goes. So let's have a real conversation about how we can really fix the problem, how we can have greater access to health care, greater access to nursing care, greater access to uninsured, greater access to specialized medicine.

GR: What I don't hear in that, though, is a device to lower the cost. Those sound like costs increasing changes to make.

CR: No, in the beginning, you said would you look to make changes? And I think that, yes, I think I said. Whether the services are provided, comprehensively, what services are being provided. Listen, I don’t have all of the answers. And I'm just saying that I just go knock on doors and it's on the minds of many people in central New York. And I'm saying this is a problem and this is an issue that we have to tackle.

GR: Okay. And Supervisor Paro, we're beginning to run out of time here. But if you could quickly jump in on that question and then I have a different question for you.

NP: I think it's something that could be reexamined, similar to what they've done with school aid, right? They're doing the Foundational Aid Study group to look at how that is calculated. I think the state needs to look at something similar. But at the same time, I’m going to tell you that the budget is so large in New York State, there's opportunities for us to find cuts elsewhere in the near term that will have a greater impact while we look at this issue.

GR: Okay, I wanted to ask you, Supervisor Paro, something that other folks in your party are emphasizing. You mentioned it I think at the beginning when you mentioned bail reform. The statistics now that are out about recent trends in crime don't fit the Republican Party's rhetoric regarding it. A lot of violent crime, including homicide, seems to be ticking downward. Yet crime is one of the central issues that Republicans are talking about. So if you could talk about this briefly, is it a fact that crime is a growing problem in the state of New York when the facts seem to indicate that it's heading in the other direction?

NP: Yeah, you talk about violent crime and that's fine. We're not talking about that. I'm not talking about violent crime. Where I'm talking about is quality of life crime, which is affecting neighborhoods which transcend, I think, the data that maybe some of the think tanks want to put out. These are anecdotal of my neighbor Susie and my neighbor John both had their vehicle stolen in the same week. And it's happened now four times in the last two years. This is my, Sue who runs the diner around the corner just had her diner broken into. And it's the same people that broke into it last year. Those type of quality of life crimes are where we're having the problems and it is directly tied to these criminal justice policies that allow those smaller crimes to perpetuate and repeat.

GR: Okay, thank you. And Legislator Ryan, I have one last question for you before I have a sort of a lightning round for both of you. And we've got about two and a half minutes left. So bear that in mind when you answer this one. Why should New Yorkers who are listening to those who are struggling to get by, why should they not be upset by the support that the state seems to have provided for people who have come into this country illegally? This has been a big issue that a lot of the Republicans have been talking about. But it does seem like a kind of a juxtaposition of two things there that are tough to rectify. Can you just in a few seconds help us out on this?

CR: They definitely should be upset, right? People work really, really hard. I work really hard, I pay my taxes. And now I want the services that are provided for, but if the Republicans were so upset about it then they should have done something about it, right? So, it's a federal issue. And if you mean the immigrant crisis or Border Patrol,

GR: Yes.

CR: You know, I say we go back five presidents on this issue at least, right? So it's a federal issue that something needs to be done about. There was a bipartisan bill that could have hopefully fixed the issue and Republicans voted against it. And that's a problem, that's a really, really big problem. You can't complain about a problem that you helped create, by not solving the problem.

GR: Well let me ask you this, though. Do you think Governor Hochul, perhaps Mayor Adams, have been too open to letting the state of New York sort of deal with this?

CR: Well, I don't think that they necessarily really, to a certain extent, had a choice. But, you know, I will say this, that certainly we have a human rights issue. We have a problem, human rights, and at the same time, listen, we have to take care of New Yorkers first. New Yorkers are residents here, they pay their taxes, they need some services and that's the first priority. But the second priority is we need to deal with the problem that was put upon us, right? And that the federal issue that is now a very, very big New York state issue. I'm going to represent central New York in the 50th district and do it to the best of my ability. But we need to do better at policies that take care of the problem from the beginning.

GR: Thank you. And now just really, almost one word answers here, one question for each of you. Legislator Ryan, is there one book that has taught you most about politics, what is it?

CR: “The Prince”.

GR: “The Prince”, okay, by Machiavelli. Supervisor Paro, what about you? One book that’s taught you most about politics.

NP: The, it's not the whole book. It's the end of it, but I just finished, “War and Peace”.

GR: Wow, okay, we've got some pretty heavy reading there! Machiavelli and Tolstoy, excellent. A great way to end. That was Town of Salina Supervisor Nick Paro and Onondaga County Legislative Minority Leader Chris Ryan. Again, they are the candidates for New York's 50th Senate district in this November's election. Legislative Ryan, Supervisor Paro, thanks so much for taking the time to talk with me. Really appreciate it and I appreciated the civil conversation.

NP: Thank you.

GR: You've been listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media, conversations in the public interest.

One of the most closely watched congressional races in this November's general election will be for New York's 22nd District, which contains all of Onondaga and Madison counties, and portions of Oneida, Cortland and Cayuga counties, including the cities of Syracuse, Utica and Auburn. The district is currently represented by Republican Brandon Williams, who is in his first term.

On this week's episode of the Campbell Conversations, Grant Reeher speaks with Williams' challenger, New York State Senator John Mannion. Senator Mannion represents the 50th State Senate District, and chairs the Committee on Disabilities.