Campbell Conversations

On this week's episode of the Campbell Conversations, Grant Reeher speaks to City of Syracuse Mayor Ben Walsh, who is entering the final year of his second term in office.

Grant Reeher holds a discussion on the recent election with Sean O'Keefe who holds the Phanstiel Chair in Strategic Management and Leadership at Syracuse University's Maxwell School of Citizenship, and Phil Palmesano who reperesents the New York State's 132nd Assembly District.

In the first half of the 19th century, central New York was a hotbed of reform, social and spiritual movements, earning the nickname "the burned over district." This week, Grant Reeher talks with Marilyn Higgins, author of "Dreams of Freedom: An Irishwoman's Story of Love, Justice, and a Young Nation Coming Apart."

Program transcript:

Grant Reeher: Welcome to the Campbell Conversations. I'm Grant Reeher. My guest is Marilyn Higgins. She was the Chief Economic Development Officer for National Grid and later, Syracuse University. She's with me today because she's just published a new novel, it’s her first book titled, "Dreams of Freedom: An Irish Woman's Story of Love, Justice, and a Young Nation Coming Apart". Marilyn has also been involved in a number of philanthropic endeavors that are related to the period of upstate history that she's writing about. Marilyn, welcome to the program and congratulations on the book.

Marilyn Higgins: Thank you very much.

GR: Well, it's great to have you. So let me just ask you a couple of basic questions to start. Why did you get the notion to write this book when you did?

MH: The pandemic. Like millions of other people, I wanted to write a book all my life. I'd taken probably 20 different writing courses. I never could settle down to do it, pandemic, put myself in the chair and went at it.

GR: All right. Well, at least some good things came out of it, I guess. I have heard that story before about the pandemic with writers. But I want to push you a little bit, you had two substantial and successful careers as Chief Economic Development Officer for two large regional organizations, National Grid, Syracuse University. And writing a book is hard, you know, I know that you said you've been trying it, so, you know, what do you think about, was it that the pandemic that sort of allowed you to do it other than just having the time?

MH: Well, I've always, I love upstate New York. I am so glad I never left, a lot of the people I went to high school with did, you know, because it was the down economic times. I particularly when I worked for Niagra Mohawk, I got to visit all the little towns and villages on either side of the thruway and meet with the mayor in the diner and go to the library. And I was, I remain completely enthralled with the people and the little towns and villages of upstate New York. And honestly, I think we're missing from the creative stage. There's not a lot of books that are set in upstate New York. I think, “Ironweed” in Albany maybe snd Richard Russo did some stuff in the Mohawk Valley. But even the movie Harriet Tubman, Auburn is hardly even in it, it's mostly in Maryland. And when I think of the momentous things that happened here, I think we're too absent.

GR: Yeah, I think it's a good observation. Well, let's talk about some of the things that are in your book. It's about a certain period in history, and we'll get into that. But your book’s main characters, they go on this whirlwind tour of many of the major social upheavals and movements that came through upstate New York in the 1800’s before the Civil War. And I've read some of the histories of that time period. And as far as I can tell in this book, most of it's here. I mean, you're sort of showing the region and why it was known as the burn-over district during that time period. So just to start with, just give our listeners a brief overview of some of the different movements that swept through this area at that time.

MH: Well, this was, in terms of inventiveness, the Silicon Valley of its day. And in terms of thinking and movements, nothing in this nation parallels what happened within 120 to 150 miles along either side of the Erie Canal during this period. It's only 36 years my book covers, and in that time whole religious movements from the Mormons to the Millerites to the Shakers were formed that lived to this day, I think there's 17 million Mormons today. The women's movement was born here at Seneca Falls, the abolitionist movement. This was the hotbed of abolitionism in the whole nation. And the largest funder of the Underground Railroad lived nine miles up the road from me here in Peterboro, New York. Massive things that changed the country forever along with penicillin was invented here. Water impermeable cement was invented here. The things that happened in this corridor during that time changed not just America, it changed the world and it made New York City what it is, because it's very possible the Civil War could have turned out differently if we didn't have the Erie Canal. The Erie Canal made New York the port city, otherwise it would have been New Orleans. And when you think about what occurred, and then 7 million immigrants came along this canal in a 36 year timeframe, and that's a tiny little sliver of time. And the people who lived here, I mean, you had Frederick Douglass, Ulysses S. Grant, Harriet Tubman, Garrett Smith, all, they might have been on the same canal boats, we don't know. They were all here at the same time and they knew one another.

GR: People like John Brown and Samuel May, yeah, yeah. So, a follow up to that then. I mean, particularly I’m thinking about the spiritual and the reform movements and the like, the abolitionist movement was really radical for its time and the most radical elements of the abolitionist movement were here. What was it about this area, I mean, is there something in the water? I mean, what is the reason for this?

MH: I have a personal belief about why this happened. I've read many, many books about it. Personally, I believe that, just not unlike Silicon Valley, this influx of new people with these diverse ideas, they, to migrate to America from Europe, took a special kind of person. They came here and they were ready to throw off the constraints of the past. And many of them came with Calvinistic religious feelings that, you know, their future was predetermined. Well, they make this trip across the ocean and they come up the Hudson River and across the Erie Canal and they go, oh, I'm not predetermined, I'm making my own future. So they experimented with utopian communities, Skaneateles, the Oneida Mansion House. They experimented with their religious beliefs and I think it was because there were so many new diverse people in one place at one time who were really brave people.

GR: Yeah. Thinking of the Oneida community, I mean, that would be in the category of, I guess, relationship and sexual radicalism.

MH: Right, yeah.

GR: So let's talk about the characters and the plot, because this is sort of the context in which all this is happening. But without spoiling anything for our listeners, because we do want to sell your book. So just give me a brief what summary of what’s going on.

MH: Well, the main character is a young Irish, dark Irish woman named Aileen O'Malley. And she comes here to find her indentured father and her kidnaped half siblings and she knows they're along the Erie Canal corridor. She's sort of imperious, was raised as pretty privileged person in her grandmother's home in Ireland. And she comes to America with some real strict Catholic beliefs with a mission in mind. And she learns about America bit by bit by traveling along this canal. And it changes her and it creates drama. She witnesses slaves, enslaved people committing suicide. She witnesses shakers, dancing. She witnesses all of these things that completely throw her belief system up in the air. And she finds many similarities between some of the social problems in Ireland, her home, and what was happening here. She also identifies with the Oneida women that she meets. The Haudenosaunee, as you know, was a matriarchal culture, that shocked her. She had never seen women in charge. Women pick the leaders, what? You know, that's the opposite of what she had experienced in Ireland. But she learns about the Oneida people and she's very taken with them. And her spirituality grows and changes as time goes on. And she eventually learns that she needs to take a stand and fight for justice herself because she doesn't want her new country to be what her old country was.

GR: Interesting. You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher and I'm speaking with Marilyn Higgins, author of a new book titled "Dreams of Freedom: An Irish Woman's Story of Love, Justice, and a Young Nation Coming Apart". I like that angle of how the new country and the movements are changing her, but then she has the impact back on them and then going back to her old country as well, that's a nice blending of things. Well, I want to ask you a question about this genre of historical fiction and I've read some other pieces like this. I read one about, that was based in the Ulysses S. Grant administration, that was quite good. And often the authors are very careful to make sure that the historical context that they are embedding their stories in are accurate. So that in a way it's fiction, but it's also a real history as well. How did you approach that for this book?

MH: Exactly the way you're describing. I have been reading and researching the Erie Canal since I was a teenager. I read every book that's ever been written on it. I've been serving on the Erie Canal Corridor Commission for 20 plus years. I have lots of history, and I learned lots of history from the little towns and villages along the canal. So to me, because I feel upstate New York is so absent from the creative stage, I thought the way to reach more people was to make it a dramatic story, because it was dramatic. But it seems to me that might be, I hope, a way to reach more people about what happened here. And I wanted to do it in a way that would draw people in. I would love Aileen O'Malley to become to the Erie Canal what Anna of Green Gables is to Prince Edward Island. Do you know what I mean? I want the stories to teach the history.

GR: And so what methods did you use? You have this background, you had all this on the ground sort of research through participating in different activities. What other kinds of things did you do? I guess you were doing a lot of reading during COVID, but…

MH: Yes, but I also had a wonderful coach because I'd never written a book before. And he gave me a way of approaching this. I took book charts, and across the top I put the years. And then in the next line down, I put the major events that I saw happening. And then at the bottom, I put her evolution as a human being. And then I lined those up in slices and started writing. That's how I did it.

GR: Well, I'm working on something that's kind of similar, so maybe I should go have you as a coach now because you just gave me you just gave me an idea. So I had this question about what you came across when you were writing. You're obviously well versed in upstate history, you just explain that again when you started the book, you had that already. But I was curious, did you learn anything in the course of researching and writing this book that totally surprised you that you didn't know before about the area?

MH: No, honestly, as soon as something comes out and the burned over district or, you know, an academic book, I’ve read the children's books, you know, on the Erie Canal, it's been a passion of mine for a really long time. Now, what I did instead, I went to these places when I was doing the work on the book. I drove to Palmyra, I went to Hill Cumorah, I stayed in an inn in Fairport along the Erie Canal. I mean, I went and experienced more of these places. But did I learn anything brand new? I don't think so.

GR: Well, that experience is probably important. You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher, and I'm talking with Marilyn Higgins, the former Chief Development Officer for Syracuse University, is the author of a new book titled, "Dreams of Freedom: An Irish Woman's Story of Love, Justice, and a Young Nation Coming Apart" and we've been discussing her book. So I wanted to circle back to the different movements and causes that swept through upstate New York in the first half of the 19th century. And, you know, we've already mentioned this, but some of them are really out there. And one of them that has always fascinated me is the Millerites. And so just remind our listeners of what those folks were about.

MH: Well, they were the ones who believed the world was coming to an end. And, you know when you think about it in a practical way, these people, their lives had been so changed that they were susceptible to believing that, gee, this might be it, this might be the end. The thing that's interesting about the Millerites is that they announced when it was going to happen and when it didn't happen, they announced it was going to happen again (laughter).

GR: Right. It was like, oh, we just we just got the year wrong.

MH: Right, right! People missed it. You know, it's very, very interesting. Something else I just realized is that you asked me if something surprised me, and I just remembered something that did.

GR: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Let's hear it.

MH: I did not know that there were these large African-American farming communities in upstate New York. There was a town called Florence right off, like where 81 is in Central Square, an 80 family African-American farming community. Successful, and it was founded by Garrett Smith because he wanted people to own land so they could vote.

GR: Right.

MH: And they started these farming communities. And there were others in western New York too. But I think that's kind of an untold piece of history. And I think that…

GR: …No, go ahead, finish your thought.

MH: I learned that from a teacher in the Camden School District. She was the one who told me about that and I researched it and it just absolutely floored me. So that's in my book, too.

GR: Yeah. I think in one of the books I read, there was a casual or side mention of that and that there was a story about one of the boys or young men who was it came from that community and went to one of Garrett Smith's schools as I recall. So back to the Millerites though, so one of the things that I found fascinating about it was, not only did they think the world was going to end, but they really believed it and that they, some of them sold their worldly possessions. And then on the day that it was going to end, they got out and laid out on their roof and just…

MH: Yep.

GR: And then it was like you know, I reminded me of the scene from Little Big Man where the, you know, the guy doesn't quite die. (laughter)

MH: Yes! Exactly, exactly. It was well, you know, that's a great example. 6,000 to 8,000 people with no mass transportation would gather and have these revival meetings that lasted for six or seven days. There were still panthers and bears in the woods here in upstate New York. I mean, traveling to get to these Millerite gatherings and other gatherings was not an easy thing. But people did it. Now, they also had no other form of entertainment. So I think there's an interesting parallel between religion and entertainment that could be drawn there.

GR: Well, the famous preacher at the time was it Finley, I think, right?

MH: Grandison Finney.

GR: Finney, Charles Finney, yeah. He was the one that drew the big crowds, right. So I'm going to switch gears a little bit on you now. And we're going to come up to the present and think about what you learned and what you know about that period of New York and thinking about now in upstate New York. And so I wanted to get your, not only your historian's take, but your business development take on the current situation here in central New York, and particularly, you probably know what's going to come out of my mouth next, the coming of Micron and its full impact on the Syracuse area. It's been described by many as absolutely historic in proportion, not just something that is different in magnitude, but it's so big that it's going to fundamentally change the area. And so I wanted to ask you, because I think you'd be particularly well positioned to comment on this, do you think that we may be embarking on a new era for this part of upstate New York?

MH: Unquestionably. I was involved in recruiting AMD to Saratoga, the first chip plant that came to upstate New York with a great team of people. There was about eight of us who worked for seven years to get that chip plant here. And I watched what happened. And as it developed, I think, well, there's still some political, but I think we're really lucky to have Ryan McMahon who was so aggressive and went after that project. But let me be very clear, I've watched these things be built. I stood on a hill and watched a mile long train of cement mixers going into that site. And this is four times that big. This is, people will get out of two years of college and make $125,000 - $130,000 a year. This regrows the middle class. It regrows the technology base of the region. It regrows, changes the leadership, I believe in the region. Somebody told me there was going to have to be 37 new gas stations to just handle the population growth. And I think that, I'm also really impressed that there's some planning going on and instead of just like wild growth, you know, some good planning going on to plan for this. But yeah, this will, upstate New York, this is revolutionary and it's going to happen. It's the biggest project in the United States of America.

GR: Yeah, I think there are too many people at too many different high positions in government that have too much at stake for this not to get through.

MH: Exactly.

GR: Well, but here's a concern, possible concern. I mean, maybe it's a good problem to have, I don't know. But do you think that with all this, that this area of central-upstate New York might lose some of its distinctive identity characteristics, that we might become, in a sense, more generic if we have all this advancement?

MH: Not if we're smart about it. I mean, I would be horrified if I thought we were just going to become like mega suburbia, quite frankly. I mean, and lose the wonderful things we have. But I live in this little village of Canastota, which is as authentic as it gets, let me tell you. And we're talking about Micron and how to prepare for it. I think the towns and villages are really looking at their own strengths and weaknesses where this new development is concerned. And I think the planning that the county has undertaken, I give Ryan a lot of credit for hiring planners, looking at development. Can you imagine what Brewerton can be, a riverfront community five miles away from this site? It'll be fabulous. And good planning is taking place, and I'm encouraged by that.

GR: If you've just joined us, you're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. And my guest is Canastota author Marilyn Higgins, whose new book is titled, "Dreams of Freedom: An Irish Woman's Story of Love, Justice, and a Young Nation Coming Apart". Well, I also have to ask you this question. What do you think your characters, particularly your main character there in your book, would make of the current levels of political passion that we're seeing, both the negative ones and the positive ones that we're seeing in this election cycle? Do you think would be familiar to them in some way?

MH: Very familiar.

GR: They wouldn't be wrong footed by this then.

MH: No, no. I mean, this is, my book is written in the period of time with all the political hauntings that created the Civil War. And, you know, there were some things people could never agree upon. This is as close, this period of time we're in right now, in my view, this is as close to that as we have ever come. People can't have conversations over the kitchen table. I think it's really due to a lot of other reasons than that was then. I think that it was more economic and geographic and all that kind of thing. I think now it's a lot due to social media and algorithms. But I do think it would be familiar to Aileen O'Malley to have people unable to converse and have good, healthy discussion about her differences.

GR: Yeah, there's a story by, and it's one of the famous authors from upstate New York, but it's, maybe you can tell me but called, “Copperhead” and it was turned into a movie as well. But it was, you know, someone who didn't support the union and the Civil War, didn't want the Civil War, but was living up here in upstate New York. And the conflict that that family went through, it was very, very interesting, very similar to this. Well, let me ask you a question about where you get your love of history from. I mean, it's clear that you have a love of history. Where do you think it originated from? Was it the experience that you had professionally taking you to all these different towns, or did it predate that?

MH: It predated that. My dad grew up on the Armstrong Farm near Green Lake. It later became (Alverna) Heights, the nuns owned it. And we would walk there when I was a little girl sometimes and he would tell me stories about taking a team of horses down the hill to the canal and cutting out ice and dragging it up the hill and putting it in the coal house. And he would take me to Pompey, to the field days, etc. And I think he started it, I’ve just always been fascinated with the history here.

GR: So we've got about 3 minutes left or so. I want to squeeze two more questions in if I can. And the first one is, hopefully we don't have another huge resurgence of COVID. But I wondered if you do have thoughts for another book.

MH: I have a great idea for another book. But I'll tell you, the self-publishing business, I was an executive. I had a secretary. I don't know how to do all this, uploading this. The self-publishing world is challenging for me. So I don't know, I probably would write another book, but I don't know if I will go through this process again unless there's enough interest in this book to make it worth my while.

GR: Well, I have to say, though, physically, the book, you've done a very nice job with it. I mean, it you know, it looks and feels like any other book. Well, in about the last couple of minutes or so, I know you've been involved in a lot of different philanthropic and public service kinds of things, but one in particular caught my eye, this Freedom Walk. And I wonder if you could just take the last little bit of time and tell our listeners about that.

MH: I'd be delighted. In 1835, and this is in my book, the New York State Abolitionists were meeting in Utica for the first time and they were ransacked and run out of the meeting. They were literally physically assaulted and driven out because there were people in Utica who didn't like abolitionists. They were literally, with the help of Garrett Smith, put on a canal boat, brought up the canal, got off in Canastota and walked nine miles up the hill to Peterboro where they formed the New York State Anti-Slavery Society. An amazing thing there were singing freedom songs, we have farmer’s diaries that describe this. They were singing freedom songs as they went up that hill. That struck me and I thought we should maybe do a reenactment to honor that history. And we started that three years ago and it's been great.

GR: And what time of the year does it happen, in summer, I assume?

MH: October, we just had it, the first weekend in October. We had about a hundred people there. The first year Felisha Legette-Jack came and spoke. Last year, Mel Stith came. This year, Otis Jennings did the remarks. It's a really wonderful experience.

GR: Oh, well, that's great. Well, that was Marilyn Higgins. And again, her new book is titled, "Dreams of Freedom: An Irish Woman's Story of Love, Justice, and a Young Nation Coming Apart". And it's sort of timed to match the 200th anniversary of the Erie Canal, which is next year, as I understand you told me, right?

MH: Yes. The 200th anniversary of the Wedding of the Waters is coming up, so we'll have a whole year of celebrations.

GR: So check out the book. You'll learn a lot about the area and its history and you’ll also get a good story in the process. Marilyn, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me, this was a lot of fun.

MH: It really was. Thank you, Grant.

GR: You've been listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media, conversations in the public interest.

Crime and safety have been at the center of a lot of our debates during this election cycle, both at the presidential level and here in New York. This week, Grant Reeher talks with Jason Springs, a professor of religion at the University of Notre Dame. He's the author of "Restorative Justice and Lived Religion: Transforming Mass Incarceration in Chicago."

On this week's episode of the Campbell Conversations, Grant Reeher holds a debate between two challengers vying for departing Senator John Mannion's 50th District seat in the New York State Senate, Republican Nick Paro and Democrat Chris Ryan.

Program transcript:

Grant Reeher: Welcome to the Campbell Conversations, I'm Grant Reeher. The departure of State Senator John Mannion, a Democrat, to challenge Republican Brandon Williams for Congress, has left open his 50th district seat in the New York State Senate. My guests today are the two candidates vying for that seat, Republican Nick Paro and Democrat Chris Ryan. Nick Paro has prior legislative and executive experience as a Town of Salina councilor and now as a Town Supervisor. Chris Ryan served on the Geddes town board and is now the minority leader in the Onondaga County Legislature. The 50th Senate district forms a ring around the northern half the city of Syracuse and extends north into Oswego County all the way to Lake Ontario. Legislator Ryan, Supervisor Paro, welcome to the program. Thanks for making the time to be with me.

Nick Paro: Thank you for having us.

Chris Ryan: Thank you.

GR: You bet. So, Legislator Ryan, I'll start with you. If you could be brief on this, what is the most crucial thing that is at stake in the voter’s decision between you and Supervisor Paro as a senator for the 50th district?

CR: Can you repeat the question?

GR: Yeah. What's the most crucial thing that's at stake here for the voters and deciding between the two of you?

CR: Well, I think, crucial is, I believe that our candidacy, my campaign, I believe that I bring a depth of experience. I've been elected for serving the public for nearly 20 years as a Town of Geddes, Geddes town councilman, then deputy supervisor in the Town of Geddes, now on the county legislature, former chair of the Public Safety Committee and now as a fore leader for the minority caucus. I think I have worked hard to work across the aisle. I believe in working in bipartisan ways to try to do the best for our constituencies and do what's right for central New York, whether it's matters of public safety or taxation or economic development and on and on and on. Also, one of the focal points, I believe, is bringing access, greater access to health care. Far too many uninsured and underinsured, so I think experience matters and I think I bring over nearly 20 years of experience.

GR: Thank you. Supervisor Paro, same question. What's the most crucial thing that's at stake for the voters here in deciding between the two of you?

NP: Central New York is ready for a very aggressive and loud voice representing them in Albany. Politics in New York State have shifted to probably a larger voting bloc. And downstate, you look at New York City, the Hudson Valley, Long Island, central New York really is looking for somebody that will represent them when they get to Albany. And, you know, I don't have 20 years of experience, I have only six. But one of the things I have proven in that time is, I am somebody that has a lot of, I've been actionable and I've been able to accomplish my goals, and I have been a very loud voice for the folks in my constituency. It's been evidenced by what I've been able to accomplish as the supervisor for the town of Salina. It's been evidenced by the press conferences that I've had calling out the state on their bail reform and other criminal justice policies and it's been evidenced by the fact that I successfully sued to stop the transfer of migrants into my community taking over a hotel. I think that is what we need. We need somebody that's going to go to Albany, that will be an advocate for central New York and also somebody that (is) not just going to fight, but also is going to be able to get things done and cut through the muck and accomplish the goals for central New Yorkers and I've proven I'm able to do that.

GR: All right, thank you. So, Legislator Ryan, I'll go back to you. You mentioned access to health care and you mentioned I think it was taxes and a couple of other issues. I did want to ask you, if you're elected, are there certain areas of policy that you would be specializing in and prioritizing in your first term? For example, you know, Senator May has a couple areas of specialization. She focuses on the environment, she also focuses on aging issues. Are there things that you would be specializing in when you got there?

CR: Yeah, absolutely. Number one, health care, it's certainly expands to many, many, many people in the district. Many whether you're in health care or you just have suffered from a lack of insurance, lack of uninsured, underinsured. We have far too many hospitals that are underwater because of Medicaid reimbursement. We have far too many underinsured. We have lack of access to primary care, we have lack of access to specialized care. We have seen a trend of nursing homes closing across the state. I think that we're heading in a bad spot. And, you know, we need to do better as a state we need to do better. And we need to expand that. We can't leave the central New Yorkers behind with limited access to health care or access to health care that's too far away or primary care providers or specialized care, nursing homes, adult long term care, that's part of it. Number two is labor, a labor workforce. I come from labor I've had a broad, broad base of labor support, whether it's health care unions, public sector unions, private unions, but also skilled trades. We're going to have, we have a very, very big economic development project coming here to the tune of anywhere from 40 to 100 billion dollars.

GR: You're talking about Micron there, you're talking about the Micron… yeah.

CR: We need to make sure that those people that are building that make sure that that's done on time, under budget, we meet that moment. And it's going to take a tremendous amount of state resources to do that, to help in that. So I look forward to tackling those two issues and also education as well. Thank you.

GR: All right, great. Supervisor Ryan, excuse me, Supervisor Paro, the same question there. You mentioned the bail reform. You mentioned being a loud voice for this particular area. So tell us a bit of specificity, loud voice for what? What would you be focusing on?

NP: Well, on my website, we have pretty in-depth policy positions on different things, affordability, education, health care. I listened to just Chris, obviously, his points regarding health care currently, you know, some of the things that I would like to see is increased telehealth opportunities for folks in the 50th Senate district. But one of the biggest things specifically for the 50 Senate district is the fact that Micron is coming. This is the Micron District, and there's going to be extraordinary economic growth as well as population growth in this region and making sure that we are positioning central New York to handle that growth while at the same time stewarding the growth so it's representative of how we here currently would like to see happen, is important. And that's kind of how I would represent something New York when I get to Albany is, look, we're recognizing that we're going to have these economic developments take place, but this is the vision that central New York wants for itself. How are we going to make sure that the state's investing in supporting that vision while at the same time allowing Micron and the other businesses that are coming here to flourish? So I don't know exactly specifically to the question of maybe what committees we’ll be on, I'm not sure yet. What I do know is I have a history of what I've been able to accomplish in Salina. And economic growth, commercial investment is something that we've been able to do very well. We have four different commercial corridors in Salina since I've been supervisor. Two of them are under construction right now to be enhanced. One of them will be done next year. And the fourth one along Seventh North Street is going to take a little bit of extra work because of the I-81 project. But we're looking at ways to make sure that we develop that out. So that's a little bit of experience that I have that will be transferred over into Albany when I get there, as well as transportation. I mean, I was on the losing end of the I-81 argument, and that's fair. I was an advocate for Salina, that was my job. But I think at the same time, I was able to leverage some of the points where Salina was going to be impacted to try to have conversations to offset some of those impacts. I think I can have that same voice on transportation needs because transportation needs are going to be extremely important as we have the investments from Micron and other companies. I know, Chris, you've mentioned it a few times, but if you look at the 31 corridor and if you go a little north a bit, a little bit of south of it, there's going to be some transportation investment that's going to be necessary. I would love to be part of those conversations and making sure that it, again, is a vision that central New York wants for itself.

GR: Yes, go ahead, Legislator Ryan, go ahead, jump in.

CR: Right. So I talk about that a lot also, meeting the needs, you know, that 81 and 31 right now, corridor, it's tough. And those residents in around that area are worried that's only going to get worse and I don't think it can get any better. So with that said, and we talked about this a lot, right, so we we're going to need some serious infrastructure needs and some, it's going to take some planning and we're going to have to ease that burden of traffic congestion when that project comes. You just have to, it's going to be too many people going into one little intersection, got to fix that, got to work on it.

GR: So, Legislator Ryan, let me stick with you. And you mentioned bipartisanship at the outset of our conversation. I wanted to ask you, what's the most important thing on which you broke from your party on and went with Republicans rather than what the Democrats would have liked to have seen?

CR: Well, I think there were, I don't know about breaking with the caucus and the Democrats. I just, when I say bipartisanship, I mean working with a certain degree of pragmatism. I understand that's how I approach government. That's how I approach government in the state. I've always been willing and able to, I guess, work across the aisle, whether it was working with then county executive Joanie Mahoney to enact a law limiting the take home pay for full time electeds. Working with some of my colleagues across the aisle on the on the redistricting, but also with matters also of public safety. I believe that, you know, and also some issues with taxation. Then former chairman of legislature and county legislator Jim Rowley, we made a budget amendment to return some of the surplus, the county surplus dollars back to taxpayers by way of tax break. You know, I guess that's the way, and I'm proud to have…

GR: …Okay. No, I have a good sense. So quick follow up to you though. And very specifically, is there any important vote that Senator Mannion took where you would have voted differently from Senator Mannion.

CR: Hmm. I can't go into one right now, but that doesn't mean that I would have agreed them. I would have to…yeah.

GR: I understand. No, I understand. I just wanted to give our listeners a sense of how you might fit in with him. Well, Supervisor Paro, same question to you about, is there something important you can point to where you either broke with the Republican Party or, you know, again, dramatically reached out and worked with Democrats.

NP: Yeah. So my job as supervisor is to find whoever I need to work with, to collaborate with to accomplish the goals that we have set out. And I got many examples. Obviously, Assemblywoman Hunter represents Salina in Albany currently, her and I have worked on multiple different projects where she's been able to steward grant funds into the town, whether it was extending a sidewalk or whether it's now for a pool over in the electronics neighborhood, Electronics Park Meadows neighborhood. Senator May was the senator when I first took over as supervisor. We worked together on parks project in Duerr (park), and then Senator Mannion is currently the senator for our town and him and I have had conversations. And one of the things that I advocated for when they were deciding to tear down 81 was looking at the thruway and making the thruway free between the Syracuse exits. And in fact, not only did Senator Mannion carry the bill for us, Assemblyman Magnarelli carried it in the Assembly. So we were able to work with two Democrats at the state level to carry a bill that they knew was important to the district. Additionally, the mayor in the Village of Liverpool, she's a Democrat, she just got elected, her and I are working extremely closely together. We did a joint application, what's called the local waterfront redevelopment plan, a state program. We were joint applicants on it, and we're working very closely. Her and I are both on that together to see a redevelopment within Salina and the village Liverpool so there is cohesion with that plan. Additionally, I have two Democrats there on my town board and we work extremely close together. In fact, they came in, they had a list of priorities, and I said, this is how we're going to be able to get this done for you. And we've been able to slowly tick those boxes and accomplish their priorities while it fits into, again, the overall vision for Salina.

GR: So let me jump in, and those are good examples too, like Legislator Ryan’s. And this question could be a little bit out of right field, perhaps, but our listeners are going to be familiar with this person I'm going to invoke, so that's why I'm invoking it. Are there any significant, I want to ask you if you would have voted differently from Senator Mannion on things, because there's I'm sure a lot of things you would have voted differently from. But I do want to ask you, are there any positions of former President Trump that he's running on that you would take issue? People will be more familiar with that.

NP: So obviously, Trump is running at a national stage. I like to talk about the issues that are directly important to the 50th Senate district. I like to talk about the issues that are important to my constituents here in New York State. Donald Trump represents a different platform of ideas. And I think there are extreme differences that he has that I may have. Again, I come from an old school Republican train of thought more of the Reagan era, so I would like to say that I'm a classical, I have more free market, laissez faire tendencies than I think we see some of the Republican Party currently has today. I still subscribe to those ideas. So on that front, those are probably some of my more policy differences with former President Trump.

GR: Okay, well, let me stay with you. And I want to ask you, if you're elected, you are going to be obviously in the minority party. You know, I don't think there's anybody predicting the state Senate's going to flip. And the Assembly almost may be at this point poured in concrete as a Democrat institution. And then, of course, you'll have a Democratic governor. So you're coming in with facing a solid wall of Democrats. What's going to be your strategy for being effective? Because you're not going to be supervisor, you're going to be one senator. So how are you going to leverage that? What's your strategy?

NP: I think even though I'm not the supervisor anymore, I think it's the same type of advocacy that I've shown. It's having that willingness to say these are the problems, they're not partisan issues. These are the problems that are facing essential New York district and finding people within the majority party that I can work with to accomplish these goals. One thing that's extremely important is, yes, Democrats have the majority of both the Assembly and the Senate and hey have the governor's mansion, but they have a supermajority. And that kind of also dictates the priorities within the Democrat conference. You have more of the left wing part of that party with a lot more power when you have a supermajority. When we take away the supermajority and in the Senate, only one seat is necessary to flip the supermajority just to a normal majority, you then shift that power to probably more of the moderate wing within the Democrat Party, folks within the Hudson Valley that have similar concerns to us upstate and we can then collaborate and have these conversations, so that way I can find partners, so that way we are able to accomplish what we need to. I have a history of collaboration. I have a history of actually being able to have these important conversations and being actionable on them. And I think that will transcend into state politics as well.

GR: You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher and I'm talking with the two candidates for the 50th district seat in the New York State Senate. Onondaga County Legislative Minority Leader Chris Ryan is the Democrat and town of Salina Supervisor, Nick Paro is the Republican. Legislator Ryan, I wanted to ask you this question about, in a sense being in the majority if you're elected in the Senate, and this picks up on what I was talking to Supervisor Paro before the break, but the Democrats have been in power or mostly in power in this state for many years. And every year the state is ranked as either the state with the highest taxes or among the top three states in terms of taxes. So for our listeners who are concerned about taxes, why should the Democrats have any credibility that they're going to be the ones to change this status? I mean, it just, it seems very hard for me to believe that Democrats are going to actually turn that battleship. What ideas will you bring, or do you do you have an interest in bringing ideas for that? Is it okay that the state continues to be the most taxed state in the country?

CR: No, no, the answer to the question is no. No, it's not okay. And I think to a certain extent, that needs to change. We need to grow business. We need to help business grow. We need economic development and we need to stop the exodus from our young people to leave, to go to other states. But I think that that's in the capacity, is I think that what you will find and what this district will have in me will be an advocate of everything that I've done on the county legislature in my previous experience, my 20 years experience, a mindset of less tax and spend. The mindset of a person who doesn't want to pay any more in taxes. I have four children, I have two in college, but, you know, I don't want to pay any more taxes than anybody. And more importantly, I don't want to have my daughter stay in the mid-Atlantic. I want her to come back this school year. I want her to come back to be a PA at SUNY Upstate, I want my sons to come back. So I think that we can do better, we should do better, we have to understand that. But there's also programs that need to be cut, those aren't easy. And so spending, where do you cut where do you fund? But those are good conversations. But I think it will serve this district very, very well to have a person in the majority who understands (unintelligible), who's been working like in the county for 13 years now. We have one of the lowest tax rates, if not the lowest tax rate in the history of Onondaga County. I'll continue to do that. I'm not going to change my policies from what I've been doing for 20 years, when I get down to it.

GR: Okay. And I did want to follow up because I wanted to join that answer to something you mentioned earlier about access to health care. And you were talking about uninsured and the underinsured. And I did want to ask you about Medicaid in particular in the state. The Medicaid program in the state is just simply incredibly expensive by comparison to any other state in the country. I mean, it's way more expensive per capita than California, for example, not exactly a super conservative state. So I just wanted to know and I'll put this to you, Supervisor Paro as well, but let Legislator Ryan answer it first. Are you willing to take a hard look at that program? Like, look at what services are provided? Because it's really just, when you look at it in comparison to other states, it it's the one thing that just stands out.

CR: Yes, yes. That's your question, yes, I am. Number two, because if you look at the concept, I guess the saying is, I guess something's got to give, right? So you have, like our hospitals, you have to treat people on Medicaid, but then they don't get the full Medicaid reimbursement. That's not a good business model and it's the same for our nursing homes, right? Or for, somebody an older, an elderly resident or elderly citizen goes into the nursing home and that nursing home that’s providing that care is literally getting, I think, don’t quote me, but like less than forty cents on the dollar, it's been decades. So we have to have a conversation because if those rates don't change, how can those institutions continue to survive? It's not a good business model. Or you just give them money at the back end and then there it goes. So let's have a real conversation about how we can really fix the problem, how we can have greater access to health care, greater access to nursing care, greater access to uninsured, greater access to specialized medicine.

GR: What I don't hear in that, though, is a device to lower the cost. Those sound like costs increasing changes to make.

CR: No, in the beginning, you said would you look to make changes? And I think that, yes, I think I said. Whether the services are provided, comprehensively, what services are being provided. Listen, I don’t have all of the answers. And I'm just saying that I just go knock on doors and it's on the minds of many people in central New York. And I'm saying this is a problem and this is an issue that we have to tackle.

GR: Okay. And Supervisor Paro, we're beginning to run out of time here. But if you could quickly jump in on that question and then I have a different question for you.

NP: I think it's something that could be reexamined, similar to what they've done with school aid, right? They're doing the Foundational Aid Study group to look at how that is calculated. I think the state needs to look at something similar. But at the same time, I’m going to tell you that the budget is so large in New York State, there's opportunities for us to find cuts elsewhere in the near term that will have a greater impact while we look at this issue.

GR: Okay, I wanted to ask you, Supervisor Paro, something that other folks in your party are emphasizing. You mentioned it I think at the beginning when you mentioned bail reform. The statistics now that are out about recent trends in crime don't fit the Republican Party's rhetoric regarding it. A lot of violent crime, including homicide, seems to be ticking downward. Yet crime is one of the central issues that Republicans are talking about. So if you could talk about this briefly, is it a fact that crime is a growing problem in the state of New York when the facts seem to indicate that it's heading in the other direction?

NP: Yeah, you talk about violent crime and that's fine. We're not talking about that. I'm not talking about violent crime. Where I'm talking about is quality of life crime, which is affecting neighborhoods which transcend, I think, the data that maybe some of the think tanks want to put out. These are anecdotal of my neighbor Susie and my neighbor John both had their vehicle stolen in the same week. And it's happened now four times in the last two years. This is my, Sue who runs the diner around the corner just had her diner broken into. And it's the same people that broke into it last year. Those type of quality of life crimes are where we're having the problems and it is directly tied to these criminal justice policies that allow those smaller crimes to perpetuate and repeat.

GR: Okay, thank you. And Legislator Ryan, I have one last question for you before I have a sort of a lightning round for both of you. And we've got about two and a half minutes left. So bear that in mind when you answer this one. Why should New Yorkers who are listening to those who are struggling to get by, why should they not be upset by the support that the state seems to have provided for people who have come into this country illegally? This has been a big issue that a lot of the Republicans have been talking about. But it does seem like a kind of a juxtaposition of two things there that are tough to rectify. Can you just in a few seconds help us out on this?

CR: They definitely should be upset, right? People work really, really hard. I work really hard, I pay my taxes. And now I want the services that are provided for, but if the Republicans were so upset about it then they should have done something about it, right? So, it's a federal issue. And if you mean the immigrant crisis or Border Patrol,

GR: Yes.

CR: You know, I say we go back five presidents on this issue at least, right? So it's a federal issue that something needs to be done about. There was a bipartisan bill that could have hopefully fixed the issue and Republicans voted against it. And that's a problem, that's a really, really big problem. You can't complain about a problem that you helped create, by not solving the problem.

GR: Well let me ask you this, though. Do you think Governor Hochul, perhaps Mayor Adams, have been too open to letting the state of New York sort of deal with this?

CR: Well, I don't think that they necessarily really, to a certain extent, had a choice. But, you know, I will say this, that certainly we have a human rights issue. We have a problem, human rights, and at the same time, listen, we have to take care of New Yorkers first. New Yorkers are residents here, they pay their taxes, they need some services and that's the first priority. But the second priority is we need to deal with the problem that was put upon us, right? And that the federal issue that is now a very, very big New York state issue. I'm going to represent central New York in the 50th district and do it to the best of my ability. But we need to do better at policies that take care of the problem from the beginning.

GR: Thank you. And now just really, almost one word answers here, one question for each of you. Legislator Ryan, is there one book that has taught you most about politics, what is it?

CR: “The Prince”.

GR: “The Prince”, okay, by Machiavelli. Supervisor Paro, what about you? One book that’s taught you most about politics.

NP: The, it's not the whole book. It's the end of it, but I just finished, “War and Peace”.

GR: Wow, okay, we've got some pretty heavy reading there! Machiavelli and Tolstoy, excellent. A great way to end. That was Town of Salina Supervisor Nick Paro and Onondaga County Legislative Minority Leader Chris Ryan. Again, they are the candidates for New York's 50th Senate district in this November's election. Legislative Ryan, Supervisor Paro, thanks so much for taking the time to talk with me. Really appreciate it and I appreciated the civil conversation.

NP: Thank you.

GR: You've been listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media, conversations in the public interest.

One of the most closely watched congressional races in this November's general election will be for New York's 22nd District, which contains all of Onondaga and Madison counties, and portions of Oneida, Cortland and Cayuga counties, including the cities of Syracuse, Utica and Auburn. The district is currently represented by Republican Brandon Williams, who is in his first term.

On this week's episode of the Campbell Conversations, Grant Reeher speaks with Williams' challenger, New York State Senator John Mannion. Senator Mannion represents the 50th State Senate District, and chairs the Committee on Disabilities.

Former President Jimmy Carter recently celebrated his 100th birthday, the first former president to reach that milestone. While still controversial as a president, he is generally regarded as the most active and productive post-president in recent history, also the most religious. This week, Grant Reeher talks with Randall Balmer, a professor of religion at Dartmouth College, and a Carter biographer. He's the author of "Redeemer: The Life of Jimmy Carter."

On this week's episode of the Campbell Conversations, Grant Reeher speaks with Sara Bronin, an expert on zoning policy and an architect and lawyer. Bronin is also a professor of City and Regional Planning at Cornell University and the author of the book, "Key to the City: How Zoning Shapes Our World."

On this week's episode of the Campbell Conversations, Grant Reeher speaks with Ronald Feinman, the author of, "Assassinations, Threats, and the American Presidency: From Andrew Jackson to Barack Obama."

Program transcript:

Grant Reeher: Welcome to the Campbell Conversations, I'm Grant Reeher. We're about to head into a series of election related programs, so today, I'm changing the subject. Two guests, who have been on the program in the past to talk about their respective books, are back with me today to talk about a new book they've written together. James Charney and Noah Charney have coauthored, “The 12-Hour Film Expert: Everything You Need to Know about Movies”. Dr. James Charney is a practicing child and adolescent psychiatrist on Yale University's medical school faculty and he's the author of, “Madness at the Movies: Understanding Mental Illness through Film”. Dr. Noah Charney is an art history professor at the University of Ljubljana and specializes in art crime. And among his many books is, “The Collector of Lives: Giorgio Vasari and the Invention of Art”. James, Noah, welcome back to the program, it’s good to see you both.

James Charney: Thanks for having us.

Noah Charney: It’s good to see you too.

GR: Well, so congratulations on this book. And before we get into the book itself, there's just something, it's not a question, I just wanted to say it. I wanted to tell you both I was very touched with your acknowledgments and where you each write while you're grateful for the other. It was a very nice tonic, particularly these day, so thank you for that. And James, I'll start with you. A basic question, why is it important to have a deeper understanding of film rather than just watching them and saying, I like this, I don't like it. What do we gain with a deeper understanding?

JC : I think to understand how something works to affect your emotions and affect your level of interest and to be kind of tuned in to the mastery of the better films, and helps you kind of kind of distinguish between a film that might be a casual entertainment and one that is going to be that thought provoking or touch you in a more personal way. And so I think watching a movie just for the fun of it is wonderful. But very often, I think it's often better for you to go back and watch it the second time and at that point start noticing some things, the kind of things that we point out in our book.

GR: Well, on that note, you've convinced me to go back and re-watch a movie that stayed with me for a very long time, ”Memento”, because you trace the lineage of that back to Citizen Kane, which is a movie I'm very familiar with. So I'm very keen to go back and do exactly what you just said. On the book itself, Noah, the two of you, you divide up your lessons into subject based categories like Comedy, Western, Suspense and so on. And when I first thought of this topic before I actually saw the book, I imagined that the two of you might have more abstract topics like using dialog, flashbacks, using spoken narrative, special effects, that kind of thing. So just explain why you made the choices that you did in terms of dividing the book up in the way that you the two of you did.

NC: Well, the idea was to have the one-stop book for anyone interested in a deeper appreciation of film. So it's not meant to be in that zooming level of detail for any one of the particular genres or subcategories of things that we could study when we look at film, but meant to be that first gateway drug, shall we say, if you're interested in the subject. So the way we divided it is largely by genres, and but we didn't have time to include every genre in the book, not enough space. But I think people search by genres. If you go on to Netflix, for example, the categories are based on genres and I think it's the way that most people tend to think about movies, but they don't necessarily know what goes into the genres, even if they know what they like.

GR: Now, that makes sense. And so, well, I'm going to use the host's prerogative here, and I'm going to pick a couple of the subject areas that are in your book that I like, though I like them all, but some that I tend to spend a lot of time watching. And James to come back to you, the Westerns, what are the essential things that our listeners ought to know about Westerns?

JC: I think the most essential thing is that it is one of the first and most popular genres of movies going back to the silent age. And that there was a fascination with the whole concept of the ever expanding frontier and there's a lot of mythmaking about the Western and many of the myths are reinforced and played with in the in the best movies. And it was only probably not until the mid-1960’s that that there was an attempt to correct some of the myths of the West, particularly in terms of attitudes toward Native Americans and this whole sense of a certain grandeur about the lone outlaw kind of taking the law into his own hands.

GR: Has there been a, it seems to me the newer Westerns that I've been watching, whether they're series on Netflix or an actual movie itself, they've changed it seems to me, the way they think about the characters, but I'm having a hard time sort of putting it into words. What’s your sense of, has there been some sort of a tectonic shift in Westerns?

JC: I think there has. It's gone in fits and starts, and I'm not exactly sure where it is now, but definitely in the late sixties and early seventies, there was a sense of revising the story of the West and understanding that the white settlers and ranchers were not necessarily the good guys with the Native Americans being some version of evil and savage. And yet that was the message that many, probably for the first 30 or 40 years of the movies was what the stories were about. So that change happened in the late sixties and has been carried over. But it's also interesting that at a certain point the Western lost popularity and there are significantly fewer of them except lately on a lot of streaming services. All of a sudden Westerns are a thing. I'm not exactly sure why that is.

GR: Yeah. I'm thinking in particular of the, sort of the Kevin Costner series, there's like three different versions of it now. There's a prequel series to the other series.

JC: So, I'm not at all embarrassed to say I haven't seen any of those. (laughter)

GR: (laughter) Okay. Well, you can only watch so much. You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher and I'm speaking with Noah and James Charney. The father and son teamed up to write, “The 12-Hour Film Expert: Everything You Need to Know about Movies”. So, Noah, I don’t know, maybe I was just sort of assuming each of you would have an expertise on one or the other. So don't take this as an insult, but I wanted to ask you Noah, what's the essential thing about film noir that I should know?

NC: It's a wonderful genre for someone like me, who is a professor of art history, because it has a very specific esthetic. And when we look at films and genres, they're usually things that are about them that have been established by early masterpieces of the genre that help set the tone for what comes. And then we come to expect those elements in newer versions of films within that genre. But the expectation of them doesn't detract from the fact that we like them. So if you have ‘meet cutes’ in romantic comedies, it happens in every romantic comedy, but that doesn't detract from it. If you have, you know, a gun-slinging shootout at high noon in Westerns, we expect that to happen and the expectation can be part of the fun. In film noir, we have a really dramatic aesthetic, lots of chiaroscuros. So just looking at a film, not knowing the film, a still, you can probably tell if it's film noir. They're often in black and white, even more modern ones. And they look at the dark underbelly of the world, particularly postwar world wars, involving espionage. We can expect that there will be dirty dealings, that there will be double crosses and things lurking in all those wonderful shadows we see.

GR: Interesting. So to follow up on that and maybe slightly different topic, but I suppose one might think of this film as being, have one foot in the film noir, but a smaller question, but one of my favorite movies is Alfred Hitchcock's, “The Birds” and I notice that the two of you put that in the category of suspense rather than horror. I remember seeing it as a kid and I thought of it as a horror movie. Tell me why it's a suspense movie instead.

JC: Oh, that's a good question. It's a suspense movie because it is, at least for me, a wonderful demonstration of a master of suspense in Hitchcock. And moment after moment I find suspenseful rather than terrifying. But you know, go figure. There are moments that are as scary as any horror movie. But I think the best of that movie is the moments where nothing is happening. But you're anticipating something terrible about to happen.

GR: Yeah, those crows aligning on the telephone wire line. Yeah, yeah I remember that.

NC: Maybe the distinction, Grant, that comes to mind with films like that, a lot of the genres bleed into each other. So you can even have, like, horror comedies about zombies and whatnot with slapstick elements, but with, “The Birds” the question, I think, is whether the thing that you're watching it for and that you come away with is the moments of suspense where nothing's happening, but you're anticipating it. And then there brief moments of violence or whether the violent action is the thing that's driving it, in which case that edge is more of the horror.

GR: That's true, yeah. If you think about Hitchcock movies, the actual violence is really short compared to everything else, right, right. Well, let me go back to the thing I mentioned before, and Noah, I’ll stay with you. Tracking “Momento”, seeing “Citizen Kane” in that movie maybe not many of our listeners have seen “Memento”, but it was relatively popular. Track that line, that lineage for me.

NC: Well, I think the main thing that comes to mind is manipulating time and the idea that there are flash-forwards and flashbacks and the audience is not entirely clear what's happening when and where to fit it into the timeline. And “Memento” is very clever in that the whole thing goes backwards. So we're seeing the end of the film first and then the penultimate scene to the first scene. “Citizen Kane” is an early example of using elements that are bouncing around in time, also bouncing around in terms of where shots are located, things happening in the background of shots that are important. But we are looking primarily at the foreground, and it forces you to study the shot deeply. Again, this is my art history background, I like when a film makes you look closely rather than just passively feeding you whatever it has to offer. So “Citizen Kane” is an early example of a lot of things that would become staples of more artistic direction.

JC: If I can just add something to that because I think, Noah, that was that was very impressive, I like that. But the other thing about “Citizen Kane” is that it is one of the very early examples of unreliable narrators in that you're having, people are interviewed and each one has a different take on Kane and none of them are the right one. Each one is one different person's perception. And I think that is also something that's central to “Memento”.

GR: That's interesting. You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher and I'm talking with James Charney and Noah Charney. They are father and son, they’re both academics and they've combined to write, “The 12-Hour Film Expert: Everything You Need to Know about Movies”. So Noah, I'll ask you this question, the writer Joseph Campbell, made famous this notion that there is a common narrative arc of the hero's journey, which Campbell argued, you know, it goes across time, it goes across culture, you see it everywhere. And you can obviously see it in films, too. I mean, we talked about Westerns before, I think you can make the argument they fit in that. But, you know, I'm thinking of “To Kill a Mockingbird” the arc that Atticus Finch travels or “Star Wars”, you know, the arc that Luke travels. And you've written, Noah, about mythology in art. So I just wanted to hear your reflections about that, Campbell myth of the hero and how it fits into movies.

NC: Well, it's absolutely true. And there have been a handful of authors who have talked about how there's a finite number of stories that exist for us humans. And every story fits into one of a number of general categories. And we have things like a hero’s quest or a homecoming. And within those stories, they can be divided into acts. And understanding the basic superstructure that is in play in honestly, most film scripts, there's a three act structure or a five act structure, depending on how specific you want to get. And the three act structure is roughly divided into a half hour each. The first half hours establishing character and setting the scene, the time and place, the rules of the world that you're in, if it's sci-fi or fantasy, for example. Then there's the complication that launches the story at about the half hour marker. And then the middle part is the hero trying to figure out how to get out of the pickle that they're in or complete the quest. And then the final third is leading up to a climactic end that should in some way change the protagonist in a meaningful way that gives us some satisfaction. And this structure goes back to ancient Athens. People were writing plays using this format, and it seems to work for us humans. But I've also written about, the article of mine that gets the most mail is something I wrote for The Atlantic called the “Sitcom Code”, which is breaking down sitcoms into minute by minute formulae that works amazingly with almost every sitcom you could ever watch. And so this formula, from a writer's perspective, makes it easier to plug and play. And okay, what's the twist here, who are the characters? And it's the kind of thing that once you know to look for it, you can never un-see it. But to me, it makes it that much more interesting.

GR: That's interesting. So, James, I've got probably the hardest question I'm going to ask you, saved it for the father. What's the difference between a really good movie and a great movie?

JC: That is a hard question. A lot depends on who's watching and when you're watching. I think a great movie stands above time. In other words, it isn't, it may be about a particular time, it may be about a particular situation, but there's something about it that's elemental and that speaks to you not only depending on when you've watched it, but also in what mood you're in when you watch it, who you watch it with, and when you watch it again ten years later. A good movie may be terrific now and may and may wear not so well over time. I guess that's the difference.

GR: Yeah. I'm thinking of like, to put it, that I would put in the great movie category movies like “The Godfather” and “Goodfellas”. You know, it's just they're about different moments in time, but they're, yeah.

JC: Yeah, I would agree with those, yeah.

GR: Interesting. Interesting. So obviously, there's a question I want to ask you is how the two of you got along, father and son writing a book? Because I mentioned at the outset, it sounds like you obviously got along pretty well and you were able to at least publish the book. But tell me about that process. What were the biggest disagreements about? How did it go?

NC: Well, the process was really seamless and a lot of fun. And my father had finished his previous book, “Madness at the Movies” and it looked like he could use a hobby so, (laughter) you know, maybe we should do a book together. And I have a small series with the same publisher called The 12, or fill in the blank, I have, “The 12-hour Art Expert”. Coming out shortly is, “The 12-hour Author” about writing. And the, “12-hour Film Expert” seemed like something that was of interest to both of us. So first we made these lists, and some of the things I think for readers is the most fun is we have a film menu at the back of the book.

GR: I saw that, yeah.

NC: With recommended films in different genres that are not written up in the main text but are also worth considering. And so first we needed a big master list, and that's the fun part. And I had grown up watching lots of these classic films because back in the day my dad had on VHS cassettes, if we remember what those are.

GR: Oh yeah.

NC: I recorded about a thousand movies, recorded off the TV, skipping the commercials by pressing pause as much as possible, and I had seen most of them with him growing up, so I had a grounding in the films he liked, and that made it easier to find common ground.

GR: Yeah, that's interesting. And James, that must have been a labor of love.

JC: Well, it was a labor of love for me, and it was a labor of love to be able to share it with Noah and with his mom. And, and it is a labor of love sharing it with the grandkids.

GR: If you've just joined us, you're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media and my guests are Noah and James Charney. So, Noah, if you had to pick one movie that you think is the best movie that most people have never heard of, and let's take it, most people in America. So there may be a movie that's famous someplace else, perhaps. But what do you think is the best movie that that we haven't heard of on this program?

NC: I have an art historian’s answer for you that's probably “Mirror” by Andrei Tarkovsky. Now Tarkovsky is a Russian filmmaker who is beloved of film studies majors, and nobody else has heard of him. And his films are very slow, they're almost like looking at very beautiful slide shows, but I absolutely love it. And if you're interested in art history, there are all of these references that you could play with the films he made. He only made, I think, eight films total. The most famous ones are “Nostalghia”, “Stalker”, “Solaris”, which was remade by George Clooney and a Hollywood version. And he's absolutely amazing, but he's a bit of an acquired taste, you have to be in the right mood for it. But if you're interested in artistic films, it doesn't get any better.

GR: Yeah, I think I've heard of “Nostalghia”, but I hadn't heard of “Mirror”, so I'll add that one to my list. James, this is a question about films in America, because you wrote a book about using films to, what do they reflect about what we think and what we know and can know about mental health. So, James, if I came down to Earth from Mars and I asked you for one movie, one film to best understand America, what would you recommend for me? I'm asking you the tough ones, I guess.

NC: Yes, you are. One film that represents America, (recording reflects a misspoken titles and crosstalk, followed by the answer) “The Best Years of our Lives”. I think it is it's a wonderful portrait of a middle-America at its best.

GR: Yeah. And it's got different classes in it, and it's got tragedy and hope mixed together. Very powerful. Yeah, that's, I like that answer. So we've got about, oh, I'd say five and a half, six minutes left and I wanted to do something a little different at the end and I'm glad we have some time for it. I want to ask you a series of relatively brief questions. You do have enough time to kind of give me a reason why. So it's not a pure lightning round, but it's kind of like a lightning round. And actually, given the time we have left, I may throw in mine, too. Now, I'll put in the dilettante's perspective here. But first of all and James as well, Noah we’ll start with you because, Noah what's the most important movie that's ever been made?

NC: The first one that came to mind was “All the President's Men”.

GR: Wow.

NC: And that was, that's my instant reaction because it's so good. But it also, it's important because it shows that we can't just be automatically beholden to authority. Sometimes we have to shake things up and ask deeper questions.

GR: Interesting. James, what would you say is the most important movie ever made?

JC: I think I don't know. I'd say that's a hard one. It would be hard for me to pinpoint the important film.

GR: Well, my mind went to the negative rather than the positive, I guess. And I was thinking of “Birth of a Nation”. But I don't know what the two of you would think about that.

JC: You know what, that was on the tip of my tongue. And for some reason, I was reluctant to say it. Yes, “Birth of a Nation” in part because it is an absolutely brilliant film about a very bad series of ideas and concepts and in many ways, it can stand as a warning to be to be wary of something that is brilliantly presented, but may have an underpinning of something that is dark and worrisome.

GR: Well, James, I'll stick with you the next one. Best film ever made?

JC: Well, then we're in the category of favorite film because every one of us has a best film. My favorite film of all is, “Singing in the Rain”. It's the film that puts me in a happy place every time I see it. It's the best antidepressant I know better than Prozac and it's a perfectly made film. I mean, the perfectly made film that people will point to is, “Casablanca”. And but that's, you know, that's a heartfelt drama. But if I want to put a smile on my face, “Singing in the Rain” is it.

GR: Noah, I have a feeling you're going to have a different answer on that one. What do you think is the best film ever made?

NC: There is a correct answer, which is, “Casablanca”. That's the one that gives you an A+ in class, because it's often used as the exemplar of the perfect film, from script to acting to casting, you name it. And I think it probably is from my perspective, too. But my favorite film is, “Airplane”, which is totally silly and ridiculous. And I've seen it probably several dozen times. So that has nothing to do with anything, but Casablanca is the correct answer you are looking for.

GR: I think in my top three, there's a film like that, and it's “This is Spinal Tap”.

NC: Oh, that's a classic.

JC: That's great, that's a great movie.

GR: So, Noah, next one. What's the worst major motion picture ever made? One where there was a significant amount of investment in it and it just was really awful.

NC: The first one that comes to mind was, “Waterworld”.

GR: Yeah, I thought of that.

NC: Because it famously had this enormous budget and it was just dreadful. And it lost a huge amount of money. And it was famous for being a total failure. So that's probably the one that I'm most people would say. I'm not sure if that's the A+ answer, but I'll give you that one.

JC: There's an interesting kind of caveat about that, which is very often a film that people think is an absolute disaster, I'm thinking of “Ishtar”, which is another film that people, at the time it came out it was the ultimate failure, written by and directed by Elaine May. And now people are starting to give it a second look and all of a sudden 25, 30 years later, they're saying maybe this may be a great film.

GR: Yeah, I thought it was, I enjoyed it. I thought it was funny, very funny at times. So the last one of these and we've only got about a minute left, James, you already said what your favorite movie was, so now I'm going to say, what's your second favorite movie after “Singing in the Rain”?

JC: My second favorite movie is another musical, I love musicals, “Yankee Doodle Dandy” for the same reason, starring James Cagney, a patriotic movie that he did to undo his gangster image and to go back to his roots because he was a vaudeville tap dancer before he was a movie star. And it's a biography of George M. Cohan, a superstar of the turn of the century at the beginning of the 20th century, who wrote music and was a triple threat. He wrote music, he directed he wrote scripts and he danced.

GR: Wow.

JC: James Cagney did all of those things. And again, there are numbers in there that just immediately make me smile.

GR: Well, Noah, in 15 seconds only. What's your favorite movie?

NC: “Manhattan” by Woody Allen. I absolutely love it. So that's the one I would point you to if “Airplane” has been checked out of the library.

GR: Well, we'll have to leave it there. That was James Charney and Noah Charney and again, their new book is, “The 12-Hour Film Expert: Everything You Need to Know about Movies”. If you like movies as much as I do, you'll love the book. Thanks for both of you for making the time to talk me.

NC: Grant, thanks so much for such a good interview. It's hard to balance with two people, so thank you.

GR: (laughter) My pleasure.

JC: I really enjoyed it. Grant, thank you very much.

GR: I did, too. You've been listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media, conversations in the public interest.