Changing the Rules

Transcription:

Intro  00:04

Welcome to Changing the Rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best lives and advice on how you can achieve that too. Join us with your lively host, Ray Lowe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Ray Loewe00:20

Welcome, everybody. And thanks for joining us here at Changing the Rules. We're lucky enough this morning, we're sitting in our brand new podcast facilities in Willow Street, Pennsylvania, we have our super engineer Luke Cagno sitting here at the board. And he's the person who makes us sound good or not. So, I have to kind of behave when he's around because he can do damage to me. And we have a great guest today. But before we get into our guest, let me remind everybody that the luckiest people in the world, and that's what this podcast is all about, are people who take control of their own lives, redesign them to meet their own specs, and live them under their own terms. And the name of our show, Changing the Rules, is all about the fact that the luckiest people in the world managed to handle rules really well. You know, all our lives we're thrown new rules. Were given them by our parents when we're born. The church comes in and gives us rules. The schools give us rules, our jobs give us rules. And the next thing we know, we have rules all over the place and rules do two things. They tell us what we can't do and what we must do. And Steve Jobs, the Apple guy, the big Apple guy, came up with a statement a while ago and he said, you know, if you're living your life under somebody else's rules, you're not living your life. So we have a young lady today who is certainly changing the rules. She certainly has a fascinating life. And the real interesting kind of summary that I'm going to start with is that she's going to tell you that her life, all of her life was preparing her for a unique opportunity that she didn't know was going to come. But when it came, she had all the pieces together based on her life so that she was able to take advantage of an opportunity. So Liz Williams, welcome to changing the rules. Say hi to everybody.

Liz Williams02:21

Hi, thanks for having me, Ray.

Ray Loewe02:23

Okay, so let's start a little bit with your background as you grew up, where and how many family members did you have? Tell us a little bit about your background.

Liz Williams02:33

I grew up in the Philadelphia suburbs, which was a wonderful place to grow up. I had three sisters, two parents, my father worked nights, my mother worked a lot, and back in those days of the 50s and 60s, mothers didn't work that much. But she did work as a secretary. So I had two working parents, adored all my sisters. I lost my older sister, April, in 2008, which was a devastating blow but I still have two younger sisters. And it was a great place to grow up.

Ray Loewe03:05

Okay, so you had a relatively happy life growing up. And you went away to college, right? And where'd you go to school?

Liz Williams03:11

I went to Shippensburg State, which is a state college here in Pennsylvania, loved Shippensburg.

Ray Loewe03:16

And what did you major in?

Liz Williams03:18

I majored in urban studies, my father had died. The September I left for college, my father died. So I had to pick a major that I thought would be very, very practical. I picked Urban Studies, which was kind of an up-and-coming thing. City planning, that kind of thing. So that's what I picked and I enjoyed it. It was part geography, part political science. And I loved it, I loved all my college.

Ray Loewe03:47

Okay, and then you went into the workforce, and basically give us kind of a short version of what kinds of things did you do? What skills did you use in your jobs?

Liz Williams03:59

The first job where I worked for my County Planning Commission, which was Delaware County, and again, in suburban Philadelphia, I did a lot of actually going to meetings, local meetings, and so forth. And I realized when I was doing that, I love to write. That was the only thing about that job that I really liked. I found after about two and a half years, I was like no, I don't think this is for me. But I did love the writing and I never forgot that. One thing that I did do there that I enjoyed was we, myself, and the librarian there at the planning commission, they actually had a library in there because they had so much materials to store. We came up with a county library plan for the county and it was one of the early library systems. Up until then, local towns just had their own little libraries. But this was a county-wide system where you get a library card at one library and it's good for all of the libraries there. So we did the foundation for that. So that was something I was proud of there. But I would say after about three years, I followed in my older sister's footsteps and I became a flight attendant.

Ray Loewe05:18

Okay, now we're getting into excitement. Right? Okay, so the early years basically gave you the tools that you needed to write 

Liz Williams05:28

Yes. 

Ray Loewe05:29

And kind of taught you what to do, right? But also didn't give you any excitement in your life?

Liz Williams05:36

Not much. 

Ray Loewe05:37

All right. So now you're a flight attendant, you're a woman of the world. So who did you fly for? Where did you go? What did you do?

Liz Williams05:45

I flew for Piedmont Airlines, which was based in Winston Salem, North Carolina. It was a regional airline for the South. It grew to eventually fly overseas. But I only flew for seven years, I'd had enough after seven years, but it was fun. I met great friends. I did get to see some of Europe, some of South America, some of the Caribbean, in my 20s, which was kind of unusual back then. Not that many people got to travel that much at that age, so it did make me meet a woman of the world, actually. And we flew for very little because we had discounts. Sometimes you'd fly for free. Sometimes you got moved to first class for nothing. So that was great. But as I say, after about seven years that kind of got tiresome too.

Ray Loewe06:37

Okay, so who did you meet on your flights that were interesting stories?

Liz Williams06:41

Oh, I had John McEnroe, once, who was truly rude. He wouldn't put his tennis racket in the overhead bin like he was supposed to, insisted on it going in the hang-up closet for the garment bags. And you know, I wasn't going to argue with him. I just wasn't going to get into it with him, because maybe he'd report me to the management or something, you know. So I didn't do that. And I had Lynda Bird Johnson, who was pregnant at the time. With her, I think it was her third child, and I never had children. So I never understood why you'd want to have three children. And so I actually said to her, are you pregnant again? It was rather rude, but you know, it just kind of came out. And I also had General Westmoreland on there who was very quiet, he had not done so well in the Vietnam War. And I don't think he was, you know, a very popular person. So he kind of sat to himself, but we all knew he was. But mainly, you know, the bulk of our customers were Southerners. And when I went to flight attendant training, I was from Pennsylvania, so I was the only one from the north and I was the token Yankee. I had never been referred to as a Yankee before and it was a little daunting, but you know, everyone was lovely. They weren't mean to me or anything was just an odd situation to, you know, realize that, oh my, they're different. And I'm different to them. And, you know, they still kind of think like that, but as I say, they were lovely.

Ray Loewe08:20

Yeah. So anyway, the first part of your life, you had a fairly happy childhood, you know, moving along got a good education and a sequence of jobs that taught you writing. And then you became more of a woman of the world out there. And then something happened. So let me read this for you. You're an author, you've written a book. And this is where we're going here. And the intro to your book over here is as a young man from a gritty Pennsylvania mill town enlists in the Army Air Corps, and heads to Hawaii, the paradise of the Pacific. There he and his buddies defend a O'ahu while it explodes and burns in the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the worst surges, his bombers squadron ships out to primitive Pacific outposts amid air raid, stifling heat, outbreaks of tropical disease. He clings to sanity through letters that he and his wife share. Letters found years later saved in the attic. A poignant event, wasn't it? 

Liz Williams09:30

Yes. 

Ray Loewe09:31

All right. And here's where your life came together in something that is significant, and I know it's truly meaning to you, so tell us the  story and fill in the details. 

Liz Williams09:46

You set me up terrifically here, Ray. After seven years of being a flight attendant, I actually well, it was probably after six years, I started working at a part-time job. Because as a flight attendant, you have a lot of time off, you probably only work three or four days a week. The other days you're off. So I started working part-time at a printing company locally there based in Arlington, Virginia. And I always excelled in English. And I knew that I had loved to write. So I thought, well, I'll do this part-time, it'll be fun. So basically, I was just finding mistakes. But that job led me to look more seriously at my career and find something in writing and editing rather than being a flight attendant. So I did. So I ended up working for well, in Washington, they were known as beltway bandits. They were trade associations or organizations that would have contracts with the federal government. And they would write proposals and so there was some proposal writing I did for a couple organizations, then I went to work for a trade association. Then I ended up working for the federal government, I worked for the General Accounting Office, which is now called the Government Accountability Office, and the Congressional Budget Office. And in those jobs, I basically wrote and edited reports that were read by the public, they were ordered by a congressperson to investigate or study a program that was already in existence. For example, healthcare for the military, or a welfare program, something like that, they wanted to see where taxpayers' dollars being used to the best advantage. So a lot of the people employed by both GAO and CBO, Congressional Budget Office, were auditors, or economists, or technical experts in some way. So they would collect the data to study these programs. And then the writers and editors such as myself would come along and, you know, make it a finished product, make sure it was organized well, make sure the message was right up front, make sure there weren't spelling or grammatical errors. Because those kinds of errors would undermine the report, they really had to be perfect. And I became a tremendous expert in grammar, I know everything about grammar. And I enjoyed that, it was in a way an organizational task, deciding what goes where, and how it should be presented. And I loved it. I loved my work in Washington, I really enjoyed it a lot.

Ray Loewe12:42

Okay, so how did this get to the letters that we found?

Liz Williams12:47

Okay, I did diverge a little bit.

Ray Loewe12:49

Well, that's okay.

Liz Williams12:50

Okay. Well, in the early 2000s, my mother downsized, and I helped her clean out her house, and she found a big box of letters from my father in World War II. And she said, do you want these? And I said, yeah, I do. Because by then I had become a pretty good writer. And I looked at them, I said, you know, that's going to be a book, I want to write a book and that's what it's going to be. And when I first thought of the project, I thought, well, it'll just be a straight nonfiction book, it'll just be letters. But when I started reading them, they were very substantive. My father was an excellent writer. And my mother was a good writer, too. Now, he had saved her letters that she wrote him and sent them back to her for safekeeping. So I had a very rich collection, I had both sides of the correspondence. And I started reading and I thought, you know, I think this is really a story, it's not just going to be a collection of letters. So the book turned out to be a war story, a love story, and my story of getting to know my father. Because as I mentioned earlier, he died when I was 18, I really didn't get to know him like you would get to know your parent as a young person. And in the course of my research, I discovered that my father was most likely a gay or bisexual man. So I don't share this with most of my readers because it's rather the climax of my book. And I refer to it as a secret most of the times I talk about my book when I give a talk about my book. But for your audience, Ray, I'm gonna go ahead and just say what it is because there are no WWII stories out there that I know of, that have a gay theme. And I have one. And I don't know for a fact the trail was too cold to really track down men who had known my dad as a young man to really confirm this. But the fact is, I asked my mother about it. I asked my older sister about it, who, as I mentioned, passed away. And she's the one that really tipped me off about it. She said, you know, I interviewed her for the book because she knew him better than my other sisters or myself because as I say, he died young. She said, you know, I think looking back, I think Daddy was gay. And as soon as she said that, I was having an epiphany. I literally looked outside through her window at the leaves on the trees and they became well defined. That was the nature of the epiphany because so many things made sense when she said that. How he was so fixated on the fact that I shouldn't be allowed to wear bangs, so fixated on our hair, what we wore. You know, he had four daughters. There's one other book that I know of on the market. It's called Fun Home, that a young lady wrote who she had a father who was gay. Now, she didn't know it as a child that her father was gay. But she became aware of it because actually, he kind of preyed on young boys, which my father didn't do anything like that. So she came from a lot of dysfunction. But her book became a Broadway play and won a bunch of Tony Awards. But it doesn't have anything to do with World War II. This does, there were, according to my research, at least 40,000 men in the military in World War II who were gay, there were probably more. They did conduct tests and screenings to eliminate those kinds of men, so they wouldn't get in the service. But obviously, they didn't succeed in eliminating all of them. And a lot of them served like my father with a lot of dignity and honor and sacrificed a lot for our country. I think that should be recognized.

Ray Loewe17:10

So here you are, all of your background kind of culminated in this opportunity. And when it occurred, you knew what to do. And the book that you wrote is No Ordinary Soldier: My Father's Two Wars. Right? 

Liz Williams17:28

That's right. 

Ray Loewe17:29

You won an award for your book.

Liz Williams17:32

I did. In 2018, I submitted it to, I think, three contests. And one of them I placed as a finalist, there was one all-time winner, let's say top winner, and then there were two finalists in the genre, which was military history that I entered. And the award was the 2018 International Book Awards Contest, which is a contest that Publishers Weekly does recommend that authors enter. So it is a reputable contest. And I was just thrilled by the award.

Ray Loewe18:02

So let's kind of think about this. Well, first of all, you have a book out there, and everybody should buy this book, right? Just because you wrote it, and it's available on Amazon. 

Liz Williams18:15

It has five stars. 

Ray Loewe18:16

And what we'll do is we'll put a listing on our podcast notes when we're done so that people can find this. But I think the thing that's really interesting about you is how your background enabled you to be prepared to do something. And, you know, from knowing you, I think you consider yourself one of the luckiest people in the world because you've taken this career that was diverse pieces. And you're a writer. 

Liz Williams18:45

I am a writer. 

Ray Loewe18:46

And that's what you are going to be from now on. So, cool. So do you have any closing comments before we sum up?

Liz Williams18:55

I just want to thank you very much for having me, Ray, it's been a pleasure.

Ray Loewe18:58

Well, we've been talking with Liz Williams. Liz is a person who has written a book, an award-winning book, and it's available on Amazon through Kindle anytime you want to read it. And it's a war story. And it's not fiction. It's true, but it's how do you describe it? 

Liz Williams19:21

It's a creative nonfiction book. It's actually a hybrid. It's a combination history memoir, and what they call creative nonfiction. In other words, it's a true story, but I use creative techniques such as metaphors, similes. It's a good read. It's not boring.

Ray Loewe19:38

And you're gonna make it into a TV series at some point, right?

Liz Williams19:41

Ken Burns, if you're listening, I'm available.

Ray Loewe19:44

Okay, so thanks, Liz for being with us. You're certainly one of the luckiest people in the world and you found your way to doing what you really want to do. And thanks for being here. And Luke sign us off, please. 

Outro  20:01

Thank you for listening to Changing the Rules. Join us next week for more conversation, our special guest, and to hear more from the luckiest guy in the world.

Transcription:

Intro  00:03

Welcome to Changing the Rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best lives and advice on how you can achieve that too. Join us with your lively host, Ray Lowe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Ray Loewe00:19

Good morning everybody, and welcome to our brand new studios in Willow Street, Pennsylvania. And we have our super engineer today, Steve Wright. And I like it when Steve is on the board, because he's a fellow swimmer, and he somehow boosts my energy level when he does this stuff. So we're gonna get a super performance, and his job is to make us sound good at the end. And I want to remind everybody that the purpose of our broadcast is we talk to one of the luckiest people in the world each week. And the luckiest people in the world are those people who take control of their lives and take control of the direction and live their lives under their own terms. And we call the show Changing the Rules. And you know, throughout our lives, we're given all of these rules by everybody else. Our parents give us rules, the school gives us rules, the government gives us rules. You know, everybody is out there telling us what we're supposed to do and what we're not supposed to do. And I think it was Steve Jobs, the Apple guy, who came in and said, you know, when you're living your life under somebody else's rules, you're not living your life, you're living somebody else's. So we have a gentleman today who certainly is one of the luckiest people in the world. And you're going to find out that the luckiest people in the world are also the most interesting people in the world. And Ying Wushanley, and what a great name. And you're gonna get the history of his name, too, as part of the process over here. And I met Ying in a swimming pool. He's a fellow competitive swimmer, he's a very, very good master swimmer. And we met him not too long ago when we were trying to qualify for next year's Senior Games. And I found out that Ying is recently retired as a full professor from Millersville College and he is embarking in the next third of his life. And he's going to be doing some exciting things, but he's done some really exciting things in the past. Ying has been an expert on the history of sports and his journey is an incredible one. Ying, welcome to Changing the Rules. Let's start with your expertise, is that alright with you?

Ying Wushanley02:46

Sure, yeah. Well, thanks for having me on the program. My expertise, I'm a trained sport historian. Most people have never heard of a historian who is focused on sports, but there are many out there.

Ray Loewe03:08

Well, let me start with a couple of specific questions. You know, one of the things that we deal with all the time in sports are the Olympics. Okay. And we had a conversation earlier and we were talking, I was under the impression that the Olympics have changed. That we went from being an amateur sport group over here to very much today professionals taking over the sports and I found out that's not true, is it?

Ying Wushanley03:37

Not in ancient time, the ancient games were the athletes were what we term as true professionals because they do their best and they will make a good living based on their athletic prowess.

Ray Loewe03:57

So the ancient Olympians were paid in fact?

Ying Wushanley04:00

Yes, paid big time. Yeah, like tons of olive oil, or free meals and they could dine everywhere. That's, that's pay. Well, they may not have gotten the currency also, but the name recognition will enable them to live a very wealthy life.

Ray Loewe04:23

And that has gone on for almost forever, right? When we started the modern Olympics, when did the modern Olympics start?

Ying Wushanley04:31

The game, the first game actually took place in 1896. But in 1894 the International Olympic Committee was formed. At the time, there was an idea of amateurs because it was supposedly based on the ancient idea of amateurs, even though in reality there wasn't such a thing. But it was based on a bunch of social elite who wanted to create this upper-class idea of amateurs. Meaning you don't play for money, you play for the love of sports.

Ray Loewe05:11

But the only way they could do that is because they were part of the wealthy elite, and they had the money to be able to train and do whatever. 

Ying Wushanley05:16

Yeah, who can afford to be a very good amateur athlete if you don't have money?

Ray Loewe05:20

Okay, so now we can understand where we've gone all of these years. And today, it's very much not the amateur that rules the Olympics. 

Ying Wushanley05:30

No, because the amateurs won't be good enough to compete there.

Ray Loewe05:34

Okay. So, while we're on the subject of the Olympics, I often wondered, why would any city in their right mind want to sponsor the Olympics? I mean, do they make money doing these things?

Ying Wushanley05:47

Well, it's for recognition. Politicians would like to bring attention to their corner of the world, especially say if you're from Brazil, from Australia, and how do you bring people to your corner of the world? So using Olympic Games as a major attraction, of course, certain cities have benefited financially, but many cities don't. And that is why today because the bidding is so expensive, many cities decided to quit because after all if you have more than 5 or 10 cities bid, only one will be chosen. And the preparation will cost so much money. And eventually, you're still not chosen and you've wasted a lot of money. Even the chosen ones, not too many of them make a big profit. But on the other hand, it's hard to measure because the legacy will be there, you had  the honor to host the Olympic Games. 

Ray Loewe06:57

So national pride comes into play. Okay, so that gets me into the next question. And again, I had the ability to talk to you about some of these. So I sound smarter, knowing the right questions than I actually am. But, let's talk about national anthems and sports and give us a little insight into the importance of national anthems. You know, we've all gone through this change and what's going on where athletes now rebel against national anthems? But there's a history here and a tradition. So, why do we play national anthems? What goes on, what's the importance of all of these things? 

Ying Wushanley07:42

Well, it started as an accidental event, I think, during the 1918 World Series of baseball, and after the seventh inning stretch that the band, they played some music, including the Star Spangled Banner, which got spectators excited. And the manager or whoever the organizer was figured out for the rest of the series, we're going to start playing that music to get the fans involved. And that was the beginning of that tradition. And traditions, sometimes they're welcome, sometimes not, including many of the baseball franchise owners, they decided, you know, we're here to play sports. Why do we have to play music? You know, it makes sense at the championship to play it, make it more formal and more,  respectful. But for every game to play this does not seem right. Well, you know, the baseball history as well as American sports history always goes along with the time. And oftentimes we have nations in war and patriotism plays very important role when you are in the war. And somehow we always need patriotism, patriotism would be something that the national anthem will symbolize and epitomize our national unity. So, that became a tradition first in baseball, then in other sports. But for many, many decades, it wasn't that big a deal until, I think more recently, the Persian Gulf War, the Desert Storm operation in 1991, then of course, the 911. 911 after 2001. With artists like Whitney Houston doing a rendition of the national anthem, it became so popular at the time, it was ranked in the top 20, and the second time in the top 10 of the most popular charts. So, it's very common then from an outsider's point of view, it seemed to be very strange because we can understand playing the national anthem at the Olympic Games, when you play against Italy, against France, against Japan. So, both team's national anthems will be played. But here in this country, every sporting event, even at high school level, or even, you know, little league baseball, there's always the national anthem. And oftentimes the media likes to portray it as every time we play sports, we honor the people who protect our freedom because we have the privilege to enjoy the freedom we can play sports. Some of my students say that other countries don't have this freedom, which is quite naive. 

Ray Loewe11:04

Yeah. Wow. I mean, you know, you don't think about these things. And I guess this is the advantage of being able to study sports and of being a sports historian. I'm gonna want to talk quite a bit about this Title 9, because I know that you spend a lot of time writing about that. But before we do that, let's backtrack and let's talk a little bit about your journey here, which I think is an extraordinary one. So you grew up not in the United States, you grew up where?

Ying Wushanley11:35

In China, in the People's Republic of China, the mainland China. There's another China called the Republic of China, but the Chinese government, Mainland China does not recognize it. That's why there was a big fuss about Nancy Pelosi's visit to Taiwan recently, because communists believe it's part of mainland China, even though in reality it isn't.

Ray Loewe12:04

So you grew up being raised by two women, is that correct?

Ying Wushanley12:10

That's right, mainly because my father was a high military officer, officially. And in the nationalists coming down, you know, you heard of Chiang Kai-shek, who was the head of the nationalists before 1949, when the Chinese Communist took over China, the mainland, so the nationalists fled to Taiwan, which is where they still are until today.

Ray Loewe12:42

Okay, and so your father basically was put in jail because he was on the wrong side?

Ying Wushanley12:48

Yeah, more than 32 years altogether from 1950 to 1985.

Ray Loewe12:56

Wow. Okay. And you were raised by two women, and what was the effect that they had on your life? I mean, here you are, you're very much into sports, you're very much into things that you would think Dad would do, right?

Ying Wushanley13:10

Yeah, that's right. Even though my dad was quite athletic, but my mother was much better athlete. I would say she is all an around athlete and in almost every sport, she could get her hands on. But she even flew glider in late 30s and early 40s, so at the time that Amelia Earhart was flying around the world.

Ray Loewe13:36

Okay, so you grew up, you went to college in Shanghai?

Ying Wushanley13:42

Yes, that was after the Cultural Revolution ended, from 1966 to 1976 under Mao Zedong. And there was no college in China for 10 years officially. Not the normal university. The university was running but the students were not academically selected. But Deng Xiaoping in 1977 revived higher education. So I, at the time I was working out of a state-run farm in the outskirts of Shanghai. So I had the opportunity to take the entrance exam and became the first  member of a first class of university students. I was playing soccer before I went to the farm, but because of my family's political background, I could not continue.

Ray Loewe14:36

Okay. So you when you got your degree, or what did you major in Shanghai?

Ying Wushanley14:42

I majored in physical education at the Shanghai Normal University and then after graduation, I started teaching as a physical education instructor at the Shanghai Foreign Language School. It's quite a prestigious school in Shanghai, in China today, it still is. And after six and a half years teaching there I came to the United States.

Ray Loewe15:09

All right, so what motivated you? You know, how did you get here? 

Ying Wushanley15:13

Mostly I was trying to escape the political persecution directly or indirectly because of my family's background. And my brother, my older brother, was at the time the leader of the pro-democracy movement in China.

Ray Loewe15:30

Okay, well, we'll catch up with your brother in a minute. Okay, so you came here, and you went to the West Coast of the United States?

Ying Wushanley15:38

Right, I was admitted by three institutions. Washington State University, Chapel Hill in North Carolina, and Purdue. But the Washington State admission came first and I grabbed it right away. I didn't care which school I was going to, I'm leaving China. That was most important for me.

Ray Loewe16:01

Okay. And you were here, now your mother, your aunt, the rest of your family is still back in China at this point in time?

Ying Wushanley16:08

Yeah. That's right.

Ray Loewe16:09

All right. So here you are, you're on the West Coast and you picked a major, and what did you choose to major in to get your Master's degree?

Ying Wushanley16:16

Masters in physical education, the focus on sport administration at the time it was called.

Ray Loewe16:22

Okay. And you were saying you had a friend there that caused you to then move to Pennsylvania?

Ying Wushanley16:28

Pennsylvania, Penn State, I was admitted as a graduate doctorate candidate.

Ray Loewe16:36

And you came here and you're still in education, still in physical education to a large extent, but you're also majoring in sports history.

Ying Wushanley16:46

Yeah, the department is Exercise and Sport Sciences. But my focus was history of sport and physical education. 

Ray Loewe16:57

Okay. So now you are a doctor. Dr. Wu at the time. Were you married at the time?

Ying Wushanley17:05

No. We were married in 93 when I was still at Penn State,

Ray Loewe17:12

Okay. Now, to show everybody what a renaissance man you are here and what an equal rights person you are here, let's talk about your name and talk about your bride and talk about what happened here.

Ying Wushanley17:25

My wife's name was Geraldine Shanley, my name was Ying Wu Woo when we met and before we got married, though when we got married as well. But we became naturalized and became American citizens in 1999 and my wife in 2000. And when we did the official paperwork and we had the right to choose, to decide our name, so we chose on these names. Actually, our first daughter was born with the name we decided so we created a new name, Wushanley. Shanley is Irish and from the county Leitrim, and Wu is a more common Chinese name.

Ray Loewe18:16

Okay, so how many Wuhanley's are there now? 

Ying Wushanley18:20

Four.

Ray Loewe18:20

There are four of you in the whole world.

Ying Wushanley18:22

That's right. Yeah, my wife and me and our two daughters. Yeah.

Ray Loewe18:27

Okay. Well, this will explain to a large extent why you spent so much time talking about women's sports and Title Nine and, and getting into all of that stuff because we have with us a true Renaissance man here, ladies. I mean, you're gonna want to know this guy. But talk to us a little bit about Title Nine, what it did for women and what it didn't do for women.

Ying Wushanley18:51

Okay. Well, Title Nine we should know, this year is the 50th anniversary of the passage of Title Nine of the Education Amendments of their act in 1972. So it's the 50th anniversary now. What Title Nine intended was to eliminate all kinds of the sex and discriminations in education activities where the institution received federal financial aid. So for example, Millersville University, not Millersville College anymore, receives any form of financial aid from the federal government, that law applies to Millersville. Basically, most universities and colleges in the country need to be in compliance. The intent of the Title was to change history in terms of opportunities previously and think about in your time even more that not too many women got the opportunity to go to law schools, to engineering schools, to medical schools. But nowadays, if you look at, it's almost half half, and that's the biggest intension. Now, most people think on Title Nine as related to athletics, so I will deal with athletics. Probably it wasn't even in the mind of the people who proposed that law, but it became manifested in athletics, because discrimination in terms of ability, you know, athletic sports is most reflective in terms of how one is discriminated. Well, we have separate men's and women's sports teams or competitions for good reason. Because physically or physiologically, there's a significant difference, you cannot compete together. If you put them together, then not too many women will make the men's team, at least as of now, because the ability. And that's why Title Nine affected college athletics the most. What did it do? It did a great thing to women's athletics because for example, the University of Maryland before Title Nine, the budget for athletics was like 99% went to men's and 1% went to women's if that much. Today, the budget probably is still not equal, but much closer. The program for example, at Millersville, we have probably 21 or 22 teams, and 12 - 13 - 14 are women's teams, for the reason of having equal or close to proportionally the ratio that represents the student body because Millersville is probably 53% women. So the good thing it did is it increased the opportunity for women to compete in college sports. What it did in terms of what perceived as damage to women's control of intercollegiate athletics is because before title nine women had total control of their entire women's college sports. It was separate from the men's, men's under the NCAA, women's under another organization called the AIAW Association for Women's Intercollegiate Athletics.  And now, after Title Nine, the NCAA started to offer opportunities to both men and women because most institutions didn't want to have within Millersville, for example, have a separate department athletic department for men, for women have different rules. And the different rules is the problem. You can be sued for not treating your students equally. So after Title Nine, most universities will merge the departments, men's and women's, into one. And you can guess easily if those merge, who would be the athletic director most likely. Because men used to have this and just our society is still a male-dominated society, even today. But then women did not have control anymore, because, before Title Nine, they had total control, they don't have to deal with men, they will not allow men to come into coach or to be the director. Now, Title Nine says you cannot discriminate anyone. And the people often think, you cannot discriminate anyone, you cannot discriminate against a woman, you cannot discriminate against the man either.

Ray Loewe23:56

But it's changed the way sports laid out because today you see the big colleges, universities dominating women's sports. I remember days back when we had a little school right outside of Philadelphia over here that just absolutely dominated women's basketball.

Ying Wushanley24:14

Yeah, Arcadia University. Yeah, they won the first two national championships on the AIAW.

Ray Loewe24:22

So, you get some good things and you lose some good things.

Ying Wushanley24:25

Well, it depends on how you see it. The AIAW wants to have combined organization, have 50-50 share of the power. The NCAA being it's so dominant in terms of its tradition, power, and its financial resources, they wouldn't want to share. I know it's not right but it's also kind of logical and you can understand a big company merges with a small company and all of a sudden these two companies have to share exactly the resources, probably it won't happen.

Ray Loewe25:02

All right, unfortunately, we're getting near the end of our conversation here. And I want to get back to one more important thing in your life. I think what you've been able to show us to a large extent is, here you are, you're in China, a place that you want to get out to. You came to the United States, we can almost say you escaped, right? And, you built a life for yourself that's exciting, along things that were enjoyable to you and interesting. And if Ying can do this, the rest of us can do this, too. We just need to know where we want to go and what we want to do. But there's another element here that I want to make sure everybody knows about, and that's your brother. So, your brother stayed behind in China when you left? And what was he involved in and what happened to him?

Ying Wushanley25:56

Well, he was involved in the pro-democracy movement in China, started in the late 70s. And he became a leader once he got involved. So he's devoted to human rights and democracy in China. Of course, it wasn't easy. But he was detained, put into prison labor for four years from 1980 to 84. And I came to the States in 1988. At Washington State and Penn State, and then I started teaching at Ithaca College. And, you know, my mother died in 89 unfortunately. And my father was living with a relative after he was released for various circumstances. So my brother was the only one, the only person I really know, and I was concerned about his well-being. So I said, you can continue your pro-democracy movement. But I feel much more comfortable if you can come to a country where you have more freedom to do it. And so I don't have to have nightmares every night. So he agreed to come. So in the summer of 1994, just about when I was going to start at Ithaca College, he decided to come. I enrolled him in the English program for second language, foreign language at Penn State, then he hopped onto the plane, but did not arrive in JFK where the local media, or the Chinese media, was waiting for him because they knew he was coming. So he disappeared. And for 11 days, we didn't know his whereabouts. He did not hop onto the Korean airline where he was supposed to board. 11 days later, the Chinese authorities admitted they had him just for interrogation, didn't want to let him go, just because there are some unsorted issues. I started campaigning in the State College with my advisors, families, and friends, and it became an international campaign to rescue him. Eventually, the President of the United States at the time, Bill Clinton, and every senator was involved. Hundreds of representatives involved in terms of demanding, writing letters. Media like the BBC. Reuters News, New York Times, Philadelphia Inquirer, I remember all those media interviewed us reported. I made it big just because I know what happened in China for political prisoners, they can disappear and you never find out where they went. I wanted the world to know so that he wouldn't disappear. And that seemed to have worked and I was told indirectly that I should not continue this campaign because it wasn't good for the image of China. I said, all I want is for you to release him and I will stop my campaign. And 50 days later, they sent him onto a United Flight and told him never to go back to China again. And he hasn't.

Ray Loewe29:27

And he lives now, he's on the west coast in the United States? 

Ying Wushanley29:31

Oakland. Yeah. 

Ray Loewe29:32

And a happy ending.

Ying Wushanley29:34

Yeah, he's okay. He still lives happily there. Well, he lived in Ithica for a while, but after the first winter, he figured that's not what he liked. Because he had meetings in San Francisco, he liked the weather they had. So he likes comfort as well.

Ray Loewe29:49

Well, you know, thank you for being with us. You know, we're over our time limit so we're going to have to end this but again, Ying Wushanley, a Renaissance man, one of the few people you'll ever meet that combines names with his wife. And thanks for sharing the history of sport with us, and I can see why you get excited about it. And we'll continue to see you in the swimming pool. And just, you know, thanks again for being here. You're obviously one of the luckiest people in the world. And thanks again. Steve, sign us off, please.

Outro  30:32

Thank you for listening to Changing the Rules. Join us next week for more conversation, our special guest, and to hear more from the luckiest guy in the world.

Transcription:

intro  00:03

Welcome to Changing the Rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best lives and advice on how you can achieve that too. Join us with your lively host, Ray Lowe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Ray Loewe00:19

Hello, everybody, and welcome to Changing the Rules. We're sitting here in our nice, new podcast studio in Willow Street, Pennsylvania. And we have our engineer Luke Cagno over here, who's going to make sure that the sound quality comes out. And I'll give you his number later, if you're not happy with that. And we have a guest today and this guest is going to be a little different. He certainly is one of the luckiest people in the world. And let me remind everybody that the luckiest people in the world are those people who design their own lives and live them under their own terms. But we also call this program Changing the Rules. And one of the things we found is that the luckiest people in the world handle rules well. You know, we have all of these rules that we've been given, they start out when we're born, parents give us rules, then the church gives us rules and the schools give us rules and our jobs give us rules. Before we know it, we have all these rules and rules, do two things. Don't do this, or you better do this or else, right? And I think it was Steve Jobs, the president of Apple who came in and said, you know, if you're living your life under somebody else's rules, you're not living your life. And we have a guy here who I think most of us would say, changed the rules. So, George Mowrer, George is a certified retirement Coach, did I do that right, George? And he's got his own firm, it's based in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, and he's been helping people trying to figure out how to run the last third of their lives. You know, basically, life after work is over and how to get the most out of it. And, George, before we get into the actual thing we're going to talk about here, talk about what happens in the last third of your life, how many days do you get to do whatever it is you want?

George Mowrer02:17

I mean, it depends on how your health is or whatever. But I love to look at it, maybe in terms of weeks, but if you have 30 years, that's 1500 weeks of your life to do what you know, whatever you want to do. So it's a good idea to have a plan for it. 

Ray Loewe02:34

Okay, so you did something that I find absolutely fascinating. It's not necessarily for me, but maybe I'm reconsidering it. You hiked the Camino Santiago. Okay, first of all, what the heck is the Camino Santiago?

George Mowrer02:53

Yeah, so it's a very quick, 32nd history, James was one of Jesus's apostles, after Jesus died and was resurrected and did all that, James, his mission field was that Spain, that Iberian Peninsula, that's where he went, Spain where Spain and Portugal is today, he did his thing, he made a big difference there. He went back to Jerusalem, where he was killed. And his remains were then, in honor of him, were shipped, literally shipped, to where Santiago is, and they're buried in the crypt of the church in Santiago. And so for 1000s of years, or about 1000 years, people have been doing a pilgrimage in James's honor. Everyone is moving towards Santiago to honor him. And so that's the very quick history.

Ray Loewe03:48

Okay, so, although it started on a solely religious basis, it's not necessarily totally religious today, although I'm sure some people do look at it as a religious thing. But you went and you joined a group of people, a throng of people. I don't know how you wanted to characterize it. And you hiked this. So first of all, tell us a little bit about where you went and how long was this?

George Mowrer04:13

Yeah, so I did what's called the Camino Frances, which is the traditional, the most popular of the caminos. There's multiple caminos in Spain, they all end up in Santiago. But I did the one that most people know about and it starts in actually a Saint Jean Pied-de-Port, which is at the very bottom of France, right as the Pyrenees Mountains start and, so it's about 530 miles to Santiago across northern Spain.

Ray Loewe04:45

And this took you how many days to do? 

George Mowrer04:48

So I did it, I hiked for 38 days. I took four rest days in there in some of the bigger cities, Pamplona, Burgos, Leone and then Santiago some rest days. I actually continued on the hike to what's called Finisterra, which is, in the olden days was known as the end of the world, which is where the ocean is. It's just an additional three days of hiking on the back end of it. You know, what the heck while I'm there?

Ray Loewe05:14

Okay, so how many miles a day are we talking about? 

George Mowrer05:17

Yeah, so I think on average, I was between 12 and 15 miles a day.

Ray Loewe05:22

Okay, so you get up in the morning, and what was the typical day? What did you do?

George Mowrer05:28

Yeah, typical day, probably alarm would go off around 630, I just gotta get up. Simply put my sneakers on, stick my backpack on and start walking. We'd probably go about five kilometers, then stop somewhere in one of the cafes for breakfast. There's the cafe, like, every five to eight kilometers, I'd stopped for breakfast, and then I'd walk another 10 kilometers or so, stop for lunch, maybe have a beer, you know, because you can do that. And the beer and the wine is pretty cheap there. And then maybe another four or five kilometers to where I was arriving, which was usually about two o'clock in the afternoon. I'd find my accommodations for the night, maybe take a shower or maybe a brief nap, I'd walk out to the cafe that was right outside the door and reconnect with other pilgrims that were on their way along the way and hang out there. 6:30, maybe eat dinner, and 9:30 or so go to sleep, and hopefully sleep well and start the whole thing over the next day.

Ray Loewe06:29

Now when you did this, did you do this on your own? Did you do this with a group? What?

George Mowrer06:39

Yeah, so I mean, I very purposely wanted to do it by myself. I didn't want anyone to go with me, I wanted to experience the Camino as a solo hiker. Of course, what happens on the Camino, to everybody, is the relationship piece happens. And, you know, so as much as I started by myself, I probably had interactions, significant interactions, with 50 or so people, and of those 50 people, there are about 25 that became pretty close friends that I still connect with. And then of those 25, 10 probably about 10 people that I feel like I've known my whole life, and that I will continue some kind of relationship with moving forward - have and will continue moving forward. It just blew me away the relationship piece.

Ray Loewe07:31

Now were these people English speaking? What, you know what, what goes on there?

George Mowrer07:39

Yeah. So, I mean that the language of the Camino with quotes is English. Although the locals, I was very surprised that English is not spoken by many of the people along the way. You know, one would think you're in the hospitality business and the cafes and the hotels and stuff. But that really isn't the case. But along the way, English was, generally, the language spoken. The people I hung out with were from Australia, Ireland, Scotland, England, Germany. The German speak English really, really well so I was greatly rewarded by that. And obviously, people from the US and Canada were there as well.

Ray Loewe08:24

Okay, so you can do this in a number of ways. But, generally speaking, you had a starting point and a stopping point every day. So you did have a plan to get through there. And you knew about how long you were going to walk and you kind of knew when lunch and dinner was going to be. You just didn't know who you are going to see or meet along the way?

George Mowrer08:42

Yeah, well, I mean, and there were definitely periods of time where I was hiking with a group of people. And then there were times when like, I'm sort of an ambivert. I'm partly introvert, partly extrovert. I like time with people but I also valued and loved walking by myself a bunch too. So I tried to make sure that that discipline was all the way through my process. 

Ray Loewe09:08

Alright, so how much did you organize this to begin with? Like, did you go with a tour company? Did you show up at a spot and start walking? What do you do?

George Mowrer09:18

I think for the most part, I read, I had a guidebook that I had read or looked at ahead of time. I follow tons of Facebook groups. I did this May in June of this year, of 2022. And there's a Facebook group of people doing the Camino Frances, May, June 2022, with about 1,000 people that are part of that group. So, lots of insight, lots of things I learned just following that Facebook group. I love the memoirs. I probably read four or five of those that kind of gave me some good ideas of things to do, but I was not part of a tour group. I had my backpack and my sneakers and my walking sticks and just started walking. And I knew that you follow a sign, you follow an arrow the whole way.

Ray Loewe10:04

Follow the yellow brick road.

George Mowrer10:06

Yeah, or the yellow arrow or whatever.

Ray Loewe10:08

Interesting. Now, when you go on this thing, you can go low budget or you can go high budget, can't you? So what's the difference? What happens? What did you do? And then what do other people do?

George Mowrer10:23

Yeah, I mean, the accommodations can be anywhere from six or eight euros a night, which is kind of a dormitory kind of a setting. There's public ones, there's private ones, where you're going to pay, you know, 12 or 14 Euro per night. I spent a lot of nights in those, but there's pensions, there's guesthouse, there's hotels, you know, all the way up. I think I ended up just from a financial standpoint, I ended up, believe it or not, including food about 83 bucks a day is what I averaged spending over the time. So you can do it for less and obviously, you can do it and spend more. I did not use a tour company but people do do that. I just, you know.

Ray Loewe11:13

So, if you want to do this and not have the same experience, you can have somebody pick you up at the airport, they book the hotels for you, they tell you where you're going to stay, they tell you what the restaurants are. And they send somebody along in a van and make sure that you don't fall on your face and get hurt, right?

George Mowrer11:29

You can probably arrange for something like that. Correct.

Ray Loewe11:32

And that was not you. You did it more on the lower budget kind of a thing, interspersing some luxury along the way?

George Mowrer11:41

Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure lower budget, I didn't do that. I mean, there are people that spend a whole lot less. I mean, I wanted to make sure I had the full experience of that. I did not have my places arranged ahead of time. I usually, a day or two, looked at okay, I want to go there tomorrow, I want to go there the next day, and then I might make reservations for those. But you know, it also depended on the people around me. You know, we did spend a lot of time together. And so, where are you guys going, you know, that kind of a thing.

Ray Loewe12:16

Okay, so why did you do this?

George Mowrer12:22

Well, I'll tell you, I mean, there's a movie called The Way. And of your listeners, Martin Sheen and Emilio Estevez star in the movie. And it is about this journey that I did. And I saw that movie and I'm like, that's it. That's it. I want to do that. And then my church, back in 2017 did a mission trip, where we hiked as a group of about 12 people. We hiked for a week, and then we served in one of these albuquerques, or these dormitory kinds of places. We served for a week and just in that week, I'm like I want to do this. As soon as I can do this, and I can make my budget work, that's when. And literally, this year was the first year that it could happen. And my wife gave me her blessing. And I said goodbye.

Ray Loewe13:15

Okay, so how do you prepare physically for this, if you want to do this? What do you have to do? Do you need to be in shape?

George Mowrer13:23

You do. I mean, you're walking each day. What I'll say is I chose to go at this kind of this 12 to 15 mile but for people that might not be as in shape or want to do it, but they don't think they can do that. So okay, so you do five miles a day, six miles a day. It doesn't matter, you know, it's going to take you longer, or you don't go as far but your level of being in shape shouldn't dictate whether you go or not.

Ray Loewe13:57

Okay, so I'm sure you met some wonderful people and you've got some great stories, so enlighten us a little bit here.

George Mowrer14:06

Yeah, so a good story. One of the Albuquerque's. One of the things I wanted to do in my own head was, I play guitar, and I thought wouldn't it be cool to be among strangers or whatever and play guitar sometime. And one of the people I was hiking with knew that I played guitar as well. I'm a little bit shy like I don't want to just pull out a guitar and start singing. So there were about eight or ten of us around the table. A couple Germans that spoke English but a lot of French people that did not. And we finished up dinner and one of the people next to me said there's there's a guitar in the other room. I'm gonna go get that guitar and bring it back and we're gonna sing. And I'm like, fine, okay, whatever. So she went and got the guitar, brought it back. I pulled up an app on my phone with lyrics and chords and we started to sing songs that everybody around the table knew. It would be like Cat Stevens Wild World. And we did some Beatles songs and everybody knew the songs. And here we were, we couldn't speak the same language. But yet, we were all singing together. And the coolest part of it was at the end of it, we did about five songs, I'm like, I'm gonna end on a high, I'm not going to keep this thing going all night. Then one of the French guys reaches across as if he wants to guitar and we hand him the guitar, and this guy starts playing now. He wasn't playing a chord, like ripping chords, let's sing songs. He's more of a delicate, and he's playing like Pachelbel Canon and you know, things like that.  And we're like, oh my gosh, the language of music, has brought us all together. And that the coolest thing about that is after it was over, one of my German friends came up to me and he said, George, this has been my favorite night on the Camino. And that is what it's all about, where relationships come together like that. 

Ray Loewe16:13

All right, when you walked along here, how many people did you see that were in groups? How many were singles? Who are the kind of people? You know, one of the reasons specifically is were there single women that you met along the way that do this? And was it safe?

George Mowrer16:32

Well, it was certainly the question of solo hikers. I mean, many start out as solo hikers but very quickly, come together. There's a phrase on the Camino, your Camino family, where people come together and they just form relationships and as a family, or as a group, they spend time together. But at the same time, there's people that want to be by themselves the whole time, male, female, it is a very safe kind of setting or whatever. But I ended up interestingly too, which my wife doesn't love, is I ended up with four other single women that I spent a lot of my time with. And these are four amazing women, I posted some pictures on my Instagram. So, people that were interested, they could follow along and see that. And my wife, I talked to her one day, and she said, so those are your peeps. I said yep, they are, they're pretty amazing, pretty amazing people as well. And I still stay connected with them to this day, which was lovely.

Ray Loewe17:34

Okay. Any other stories you want to get in before we move on here?

George Mowrer17:39

Move on, you know, if something comes up, I'll share.

Ray Loewe17:41

Okay, so again, you did this. I think you told me when we were rehearsing for this a little bit, you did this because you wanted to experience the kind of life that you're telling other people in your coaching job to do. Okay. So would you like to elaborate? 

George Mowrer18:00

Yeah, I mean, I think the most effective thing I can do as a coach is live my life exactly what I'm trying to encourage them to do. I'm recently retired from my 35 years in the insurance business, vocational career. And this is a direction that I'm moving. I'm in about three years into this retirement coaching. And people are watching me. How can I tell people to do stuff that I'm not doing myself? And, you know, the Camino is just one example. They think I'm crazy that I'm doing this. 

Ray Loewe18:32

Yeah, I think you are a little bit too, but it's intriguing. 

George Mowrer18:34

Yeah. I'm breaking the rules, you know, that's what it's about.

Ray Loewe18:37

So, would your family go along on this excursion? Would you do this again?

George Mowrer 18:44

Well, I mean, good question. I do plan on doing it. I mentioned earlier there's multiple caminos and from what I understand, on the Camino Portuguese, there's a particularly beautiful part of it that goes from Porto up to Santiago and is supposed to be incredible. And I would love to do that again next year. I'm not sure my wife this is her thing to do. And she's given me her blessing for me to go do it. But I will say that I talked to my son who lives in Berlin, Germany, and if he can make it work with his job and stuff, now it we it may not be next year but there may be a future year that we actually do this together. So I'd love that. But I'd love to do it again by myself. I don't really care.

Ray Loewe19:29

I'm getting the idea this is not something you would do with a tour group because the tour group is fixed and what you really want to do is you want to explore the new relationships and you want to meet people from other cultures and things like that. Do people just walk this? Do you see bicycles? Anybody riding by horseback?

George Mowrer19:52

Good question. Bicycles. There are a lot of people that do this on bike, maybe there's a little bit less. They can do it quicker. But yeah, bikes are very popular, a little bit annoying. But there are paths, bike areas around some of the mountains, and things that we go over. I saw a few horses. I actually saw a guy with a donkey. He had walked his donkey to Santiago and he was walking back. And I don't remember where he started, but it wasn't Spain and it wasn't France. He may have started as far back maybe as Italy or somewhere like that to hike in. So, only a little bit of that, almost everybody was walking though.

Ray Loewe20:39

Okay, so you're gonna meet new people. What about the relationship with the locals though? And stuff like that? Is this something they're for?

George Mowrer20:48

Yeah, I mean, the locals, not only do they love the pilgrims, which we are called, but it's become a pretty significant part of their economy. I think when I think about Northern Spain, it's wine and farming and then pilgrims. We are in the top three economic drivers for that place. And I think, pre-COVID 2019, I think there are about 350,000 pilgrims that did the Camino in one way or the other that ended up in Santiago.

Ray Loewe21:20

Okay, so we're near the end of our time. What do you want to tell people to do? You know, obviously, you're going to do this again, you enjoy this, you got a lot out of the experience. Any final remarks you want to make?

George Mowrer21:36

I mean, for me, it was the most unique thing I ever did in my life. For me, for the first time in my life, literally, I had nothing on my calendar and no responsibility to anybody. So, it gave me a glimpse of what life could be outside of my normal life, and experience something new and amazing. And, you know, obviously I'd say yeah, hike the Camino, you should do the Camino, anyone can do the Camino. Or you know, people in wheelchairs have done portions of the Camino, it is possible to do with, you know, with proper planning. But it is an incredible, unique thing. So I encourage anybody to do it if they're interested in doing it.

Ray Loewe22:20

I think it's a phenomenal experience. And it's one I never heard of until recently. And now all of a sudden you talk to one person about this and you find there are other people hiding in the woodwork that have done this or are wanting to do this. So you know, thank you so much for sharing your experiences, and let me think about this a little bit and maybe we'll have you back and we'll continue and go into the next Camino and see how that works out. So join us again next week. We're going to be back with our engineer Luke again and Luke why don't you sign us off.

Outro  22:58

Thank you for listening to Changing the Rules. Join us next week for more conversation, our special guest, and to hear more from the luckiest guy in the world.

Transcription:

Intro  00:03

Welcome to Changing the Rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best lives and advice on how you can achieve that too! Join us with your lively host, Ray Lowe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Geoff Boyer00:19

Hello, everybody, and welcome to our podcasting studio here in Willow Street, Pennsylvania. And I'm sitting here with my engineer Luke Cagno. And I've got two magnificent gush, they are two of the luckiest people in the world. And before I let them talk, let me define what the luckiest people in the world are all about so that you can focus in on why they are who they are. So, the luckiest people in the world are people who figure out what they want their lives to be like, they actually design them to their own terms, and then they step in and live them under their own terms. And people who do that tend to be happier, they tend to have a sense of direction. It's not an easy thing to do. But one of the things that you're going to find from today is it takes some planning to do that. And we're going to focus a little bit on visions and planning. So today, I have my two guests, Jeff Boyer. Jeff is a longtime friend, which means he's almost as old as I am. And Jeff has been in the financial advising business for a long time. And he's also been in the banking business, he started a couple of community banks, and he's still active there. And although he has sold his financial planning business, he's still active as an advisor in an advisory role there. So he's a perfect person to talk to us about where the money's gonna come from to do what we want. Our second guest is George Mauer. Okay. And George is a certified retirement coach at Nextgen Retirement Coaching, and he focuses on the non-financial areas of life. Okay, so I'm going to start out and pose a problem with a story. And then you guys are going to come in and tell us how we solve this problem. So welcome to changing the rules. So years ago, I'm a competitive swimmer, I still am, and I went down to our National Senior Games Championships, they happened to be in Birmingham, Alabama, and I did my swimming thing. And I'm wandering around afterward, talking to people, and I meet this guy, and he's carrying six medals around with him, five of them gold and one silver. The silver one is the important thing. And I later found out that John won his six medals in the 100- 104 age group. And at age 103, John's medals were in the shotput, the discus, the hammer throw, the javelin, and he launched one crummy event to 101 year old. So there's more than one in the age group, okay. And this caused me a great deal of concern because I started thinking, well, what if I'm lucky enough to live to be 100 years old? And more and more people are starting to do that today? Well, if that happens, what do I want my life to look like? Am I going to be like John here out having fun with his friends? Or am I going to be sitting in a wheelchair in a nursing home because I don't take care of myself. And the next thing is, if you retire at age 65, which is still kind of a normal way of thinking about things, and you live to be 100, that's 35 years. And what are you going to do with your life? I think it's easy to waste it. I think it's easy not to have enough money to do what you want to do. So now we got to get to the plan. So, Jeff, I'm going to put you on hold for a minute. Let's start with George over here. George, talk to us about the meaning of life and what do we do?

George Mowrer04:09

Oh, wow. Well, thank you for that wonderful introduction. I would say, I mean, the thing that I get pumped and excited about is that, as you said, we could have as much as a third of our life ahead of us in our retirement years. So, a third if you even think 30 years, that's 1500 weeks to do whatever we want to do. And you know, I think, you know, my friend Jeff here, we were talking before, he had a wedding this past weekend, there was so much planning that went into one day of that wedding, and I'm thinking people do not do that kind of planning for their retirement as much as that went into that one day. So, you know, again, the planning is, as you kind of alluded to, is the key.

Geoff Boyer04:59

Well, let me post something here. Because when I got out of business school, we were all told to do 25 and 30-year plans. Well, people don't do that anymore. You know, and the biggest complaint I get about planning is people say I had a plan. And then we had COVID. And my plan was out the window. So why did I bother planning in the first place? And yet, if you don't plan, you're going to waste time, you're going to waste your life, you're not going to have the resources to do what you want. So how do we cope with that?

George Mowrer05:31

I mean, I'm not sure a 30-year plan, I think more than a plan is to have a vision for what that next chapter of your life is going to be. I love the idea of sort of 10 years at a time, you know because we have our health and our health is going to change over the years. That's one of the considerations. So I don't have a 30-year plan, but I have a plan. And I live my life that way. And I do feel like one of the luckiest guys in the world.

Geoff Boyer05:59

Okay, so let's bring Jeff in here for a minute. So, Jeff, we have George here, and he's got a 10-year plan. How do we structure the money to deal with that plan? And let me pose something here. I know, I had a bucket list when I retired, and I went through that bucket list pretty fast. And every time I checked something off the bucket list, three new things came on. And where does the money come from? Because if you're retired and on a fixed income, how do you cope with those things? And if you live in an ever-expanding life, what do you do? So talk to us, tell us the secrets of life? Well, thank you, Ray, I think you put a keyword there, and the word was bucket. But I would say rather than bucket list, I would say buckets of money. If you take if you want to plan and you have to plan or you're not going to get where you want to go. A bucket that has cash in it, a bucket of short-term investments, a bucket of long-term investments, with greater risk can help you get through any COVID situation where the markets go down and people are concerned. If you're dealing from cash, you're not playing with your investments, you're not taking money from a declining bucket. But rather that bucket is going through the valley and back up the mountain. You know, in the future, at least that's what history tells us has been done and does consistently. Okay, I want to come back to you with another thing. But let's go back to Georgia and throw another thing into the woodwork here. That's the wrong word. But whatever it is, I mean. So, George, we're thinking that maybe we'll live 30 years. What if we don't? We don't know, we have no idea how long we're gonna live., right? Okay, so how do you plan? How do you plan for the long term and the short term here and the contingencies both ways?

George Mowrer08:09

I mean, from my thinking, the most important thing to do is figure out what is most important for you right now. And it's not necessarily a financial thing. It's what do you value? What do you value most? And in kind of building around those, what is most important for you, and from there plan. And the plan may be financially driven, it may not be, it might be serving. There's things that you value, that for you to live the best life that you can you're living into those things.

Geoff Boyer08:40

Okay, when you coach somebody or talk to somebody, how do you determine or how do you get them to understand what their values really are? Because I suspect a lot of people don't think consciously about this. 

George Mowrer08:52

Yeah, good question. I think when I'm working with somebody, I want them to figure out what they value and what they want to value or what they long to value as they move forward. And I take them through a three-question exercise. And light bulbs go on when I do this. The first question I'll ask them is what do you want your ideal retirement to look like? What's a typical day? What's a typical week? What's the perfect retirement looks like? And then they can name like I would you know, golfing and traveling and visiting friends and blah, blah, blah. The second question I ask is okay, you go to the doctor, and the doctor tells you you have five years to live? Now, what does your perfect retirement look like? And that usually takes people back but now they have five years to deal with. So then they can relook at that. Often their vision for their retirement at that point is not quite as crazy as the unlimited one but it still is fairly consistent with that. And then the third question, and this is one gets them, is you go to the doctor and the doctor says, oops, I made a mistake, you have 48 hours to live. And so it's no longer a matter of what you're going to do with that last 48 hours. Now it's a time of reflecting on what are your regrets. What do you wish you did? What are the things you'd love to do one more time, and all of a sudden out of that conversation, values, and what really is important begin to emerge from that? And then those values become the foundation, whether you have five years, 10 years, or 30 years ahead of you.

Geoff Boyer10:34

Okay, getting back to Jeff here. Because somewhere around here, whatever our life is going to be, we have to know that we have enough money to be able to do it. Okay. And one of the things I think that we have to do also is allow for contingency. So what if we only have 48 hours left to live? And what if we have this pile of money left over? You know, what's the plan for handling that too? But the question I really want you to ask is, how many financial advisors get into this kind of conversation about truly, what is it that you want your money for? What do you want to be able to do with it? And how do you do that? I think more today than in the past, financial planners are looking at some of these issues as to what's the point of the money. And, you know, in our practice, you know,my meetings are usually two hours long. One hour for finances and one hour for what are you doing with the rest of your life, and then trying to integrate the two of them. To an extent, it depends on how much money you have and what your aspirations are. If you have lots of money, it makes it easier, obviously. But if you have lesser money, you've also got to throw in how much of it do I want to leave children or charities? Or whatever? Or do I want to spend it all? And it comes down to building a plan, it comes down to saying this is where I am, this is where I want to go. What are the strategies that we're going to use to get me there? Okay, let's stay with Jeff here for a minute. And let's bring values in the equation. One of the things that George brought up as he started talking a little bit about what are your values and especially if you start thinking about a long life, and then a lesser long life, and then maybe a very short life, I think your values come into play. So how many people really understand their values, from your perspective? I think most people would say that they do. But I'm not sure they really do. Because, as you said, values change as times change. We used to always think that people would grow their assets, and then spend their assets down on a given line. But in reality, we've learned that people spend more, let's say in their 60s to 70s, their go-go years, to their 70s, the 80s when they spend less in their slow-go years, to the last part where they spend more because of health issues in their no-go years. So go-go, slow-go and no-go. Okay, I think I might be able to focus in on that a little bit. All right. So we got some interesting ways of thinking about things. And let me toss out another idea that's come up occasionally. And this idea of practice retirement before you retire. So how do you know what you want to do? You know, here's one of the problems, most of us face something that we call Cliff retirement, I guess that's a good word for it. You know, here you are, you work like a dog, you're slaving for other people or maybe slaving for yourself or your clients or whatever it is, and you hit this magic year or whatever it is. And you leap off the retirement cliff, and you have nothing to do. How do you how do we deal with that? How do we plan for it? So which one are we gonna start, raise your hand here. I had a client who was in that situation. And when I met him, I asked him what his goal was for retirement. He said, I'm going to sit down on the porch and put my feet up, I'm going to watch the neighbors go to work and mow the lawn and all this kind of stuff. And I'm just going to enjoy myself. And I said, okay. I said, when will I be meeting your wife? Because if you do, that statistics tell us that within seven years, she's going to be our client. And it's a hard thing to say but it's very true. You have to have an idea of what's important to you. What do you want to do? I met a guy the other day who seeds envelopes for charity. He puts five bucks and leaves it on a park bench to see who will pick it up, read the note on it and add to it or take it. This is something he's wanted to do; he's very wealthy. But he does it because he wants to help others and help teach them to add a little bit to the pile and eventually give it away. The whole idea is, that's his purpose. Okay, go ahead.

George Mowrer15:29

I mean, what I would add to it is, I think if suddenly someone finds themselves retired, it happens very quickly, I think initially, people love it. There's this perception of retirement as being a perpetual vacation, they're like, finally I have no routine in my life, and I can go golf, and I can travel and do all that. But that goes, six months, maybe a year, and then all of a sudden, reality starts setting in where all of a sudden, like routine, they longed for routine, and the routine is gone. Routine, identity, relationships, purpose, those things start, purpose less and less starts showing up. And then that's when the reality starts hitting that, oh, I need to do something about this.

Geoff Boyer16:15

What about the trap of getting into retirement, getting busy, and then finding out all these things that you're busy with don't have the meaning that you want them to have? When do you find out that's true? And how do you fix it? And how many people do this and whatever? 

George Mowrer16:41

I mean, that's where planning comes into play. I love working with people even before retirement or that initial period after retirement has started because without the plan, you will start going down a path where you're just wasting a bunch of time. Eventually, you may start volunteering and doing things that give you purpose and meaning. But I'd much rather not waste that time and help people move right into it.

Geoff Boyer17:07

Okay. All right. Words of wisdom. So here we are, when do we start trying to get this plan together in a practical sense? So, Jeff, you're with your financial planning clients over here, when do you get them to start saying, you gotta meet George, or you got to meet somebody like George because you got to start thinking globally about what you really want to do. And then how do you know? How do you know what you really want to do? I think that if you take it to the financial side when you start working, is when you start looking at what am I trying to build? And how am I going to build it? And how much am I going to put aside for me 50 years from now, because time is your greatest ally, by far. The retirement side, I think for most of our clients, happened in their early 50s. Some of whom said I want to be retired by 55, some of whom said I'm going to work till 65-75, whatever. But in each case, it was okay, how do we partition? How do we define? How do we do a lot of what George is doing? You know, I think probably more after the fact, when the person has retired. Cliff, if you will, to use that word, retirement is an awfully dangerous thing. It doesn't work for most people. I mean, when I decided to sell my practice, it wasn't to stop working. It was to transition and focus on a bunch of things that I had not had time to do before. If a person can define those things that are important to them, and then start building that schedule if you will, that calendar that says what am I doing the first week of retirement? What am I doing a year from now? In that same week, so to speak, it's going to be very different.

Ray Loewe19:07

Okay, so transition planning is what you're talking about here. Let's get rid of this word retirement. I really don't like it. And you know, the pure definition if you look it up in the dictionary, retirement means to take out of use. And I hope I don't get taken out of use.

Geoff Boyer19:27

Could I use another word? It's called retirement. It's taking a look at where you are, what you've learned over your career, transitioning it into another direction, and refiring what works for you and what works for others. You know, let's get back to George's questions because I really think this is the key and I think if we could get somebody to seriously ask these three questions. What were they again, give them to us and give the thoughts behind it. 

George Mowrer19:58

Yeah, so I mean, the first one is what's the perfect retirement look like for you? Then the second one's if you only have five years to live now, what does the perfect retirement look like for you? And then third one is, you only have 48 hours. You're not going to live any retirement, what do you regret? What are your regrets? What do you wished you did one more time? And that's where the values start emerging out. And a plan can then start. So for me, Ray, the values, that's the foundation of the plan. That's the beginning. From there, then it's like, so when you're not at work, what's important for you? That's the values, that's what that answers. When you're not at work, who are you? That's an identity kind of a thing. So who do you want to be in this next chapter of your life? I don't like the word retirement either. That's why I use next chapter. You know, and if you want to do those things, what kind of health do you need, because we may live to be 95 but we may not be very active. You know, our go-go years could be short. Health is a big deal, relationships are a big deal. And the financial obviously is a big deal.

Geoff Boyer21:11

Okay, so let me try and sum up what I think I learned from both of you. So what I got out of Jeff, you're gonna laugh at this? Go-go, slow-go, and no, go.  Yep. 

Ray Loewe21:21

All right. I think they're critical concepts. And if people understood them, then they would understand some elements of what we're going to face in the future. Do you want to add to that at all, or any comments on that?

Geoff Boyer21:36

I think you know, obviously, if you're a very active person, you're going to have a longer go-go period, unless you have a health issue. But I'm reminded of my 100-year-old grandmother who told me that at three o'clock every afternoon, she and two of her friends in their late 90s used to go down to the health care facility to visit the old people. Point being at 100 years of age, she still didn't consider herself old. Well, it is a frame of mind, isn't it?  It is absolutely. 

Ray Loewe22:11

And it's a frame of mind that's easier if you're financially prepared and if you have a plan of what you want your life to look like, I think that's what we're saying here. And George, what do you want to sum up with? I mean, you know, we've got these three time periods to ask questions for. And I think if more people did that, they'd have a better idea of what's really important to them. So what other comments do you have to make?

George Mowrer22:38

I mean, to me, it's about you have 1500 weeks ahead of you in your life in these retirement years, and how best to those. At 168 hours a day, how best to use those living in a way where you are getting life out of that. And I get really pumped about that time to do whatever we want to do. I get pretty, pretty excited as you can tell.

Geoff Boyer23:06

Okay, so I think this is a good place to kind of end this podcast, and I'd like to leave two caveats. I think we all need two kinds of people in our life, maybe you can find them in one person, but probably not. I think you need a George to help you explore what's really important to you without thinking about the money. But then I think the second thing that you really have to do is once you have that plan in place, once you have that vision in place of what you want, and how it might change, then you need to put the money piece in because a lot of what you're going to want to do is going to require money. And you have to take into account if things change, how is that money piece going to change? And that's where your financial advisor like Jeff Boyer comes into play. All right. Let's sum up and hopefully, we haven't solved any problems for people, but we've raised a lot of questions. All right. So join us next week when we'll have another exciting guest and who knows what problem we'll take on at that point. And Luke, would you sign us off?

Outro  24:19

Thank you for listening to Changing the Rules. Join us next week for more conversation, our special guest and to hear more from the luckiest guy in the world.

For more information:  https://foundation.willowvalleycommunities.org/

Transcription:

Intro  00:03

Welcome to Changing the Rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best lives, and advice on how you can achieve that too. Join us with your lively host Ray Lowe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world,

Ray Loewe  00:19

Good morning, everybody. And you're gonna see why I'm one of the luckiest people in the world because I have two incredible guests here. But before I introduce them, and they think they're the luckiest people in the world too, I'm going to have to kind of subvert them a little bit today. But let me comment on what we mean when we talk about the luckiest people in the world. The luckiest people in the world are those people that we all want to be. They're the people who take the time to redesign their own lives under their own terms. And then they step in and live them under their own terms. And we titled our show, Changing the Rules because the luckiest people in the world handle rules really well. You know all through our lives were saddled with rules. Our parents gave us rules, the church gave us rules, our schools gave us rules. Then we go to work, our jobs give us rules. And I think it was Steve Jobs, the founder of Apple, who came up and said, you know, if you're living your life under other people's rules, you're not living your own life. So, the luckiest people have figured out what to do about rules, we all need them. But the secret is to live on your own terms. So, we have a subject today, it's a little bit different than what we usually do. You're gonna see that the people we're talking to are two of the luckiest people in the world. But we're going to talk about a topic that bothers us because it's something that gets in our way of being lucky. And we have to figure out how to deal with it. And the topic is memory care. And I have two wonderful people here. I have Jeff Kenderdine, Jeff is the Executive Director for the Foundation at Willow Valley Communities Charitable Foundation. And we have Lauren Renehan, Lauren is part of the Charitable Foundation also. But we really want to get into her background, because she has a lot of experience with this whole concept of memory care. And let me start by posing something, and I'm going to direct this at Jeff to start with. This whole issue of people having memory issues is growing exponentially. So, what do we do about it, you know, give us some idea of what we're facing.

Jeff Kenderdine  02:45

Sure. It's one of those things, that's a little bit of a double-edged sword, because advances with heart disease, advances in cancer treatments, etc, enables people to live longer and increase that health span, just the quality of life during that time being alive. Unfortunately, that results in more and more people being diagnosed with dementia. So in essence, if you live long enough, you're going to be impacted by dementia in some way, shape, or form, either personally with yourself, a loved one, a spouse, a family member, a friend, a neighbor, and it will impact every single person's life in some way, shape, or form.

Ray Loewe  03:28

You know, and you were telling me earlier, there's another aspect to that, and that has to do with caregivers. You know, we're having trouble getting people to take on certain jobs these days. And so the environment that you're in as a caregiver may not be the best environment as a caregiver to be in, is it?

Jeff Kenderdine  03:46

No actually, and Lauren can touch on this specifically from her prior career before coming into the Foundation, but my life has been impacted by dementia as well. So, my father had dementia, he since passed. But that was my first exposure to dementia. And like most, I knew nothing about this disease. And as a caregiver coming in, you're faced with the reality of, you know, a weaning cognition and being able to interact with your father as your father, that changes. And also the ripple effect on the entire family and even financially. And actually, that's the reason why I'm here at Willow Valley Communities is because of what we intend to achieve and make that difference.  

Ray Loewe  04:32

All right. So Lauren, speak up. You have hands-on experience here. So you were in the memory care awards, were you not?

Lauren Renehan  04:43

Yes, I was. But you know, my career and my adventure through dementia started way earlier. So, I was lucky enough to know my great grandparents, my grandparents, and they lived to be well into their late 80s and even 100. But to Jeff's point, they all experienced dementia. So my first encounters were about 20-plus years ago. And it, you know, it guided my career path. My father was always working in the funeral industry, so I was raised there. I have a natural propensity toward older adults and the geriatric population and just end of life in general. So, I went to school to earn my Bachelor's and Master's in Social Work, because I thought that would give me the most opportunity to help the most people and really be that change agent that I wanted to be. And that led me through hospice and adult day service and eventually to Willow Valley, where I was the social worker in personal care, specifically Cedarbrook, our memory support community, for six years or so. And, I think my experience there is really what shaped my desire to change the rules around Memory Care. My dad had a stroke about 12 years ago now. And that occurred back when I was in high school, so all the while that's been on my mind. And we're starting to see my dad's memory and he's starting to see changes in that. And you know, what really hits home is when you are in those hallways, and in the traditional memory care model, there are the metal doors that are locked all the time, you enter a code to get in or out of the building. And I vividly recall moving this one resident in and her daughter was just in tears. She called me, we had the room all set up with her personal belongings, the nurse and I were ready; the daughter had taken her to lunch and brought her back to the front of our memory care building. And she calls me and she's just hysterical. She says I can't get mom out of the car. Because her mom knew exactly what was going on, you know, she was aware enough to know that she was moving, but so cognitively declined enough to not realize that she had some, you know, limitations that needed some supervision and assistance to get through her daily routine. So the nurse and I went out, and it probably took us two and a half hours that day to get her from the car into our garage and a little bit settled. So we went home with a number of bruises that day, trying to fit her into this mold that we've created of, you know, medical model, not so person-centered care. And I think, you know, couple that and similar experiences telling families, they have to move their loved one to our memory care, secure environment, with the experience of my dad and knowing that this is not what I want for him as he progresses. That's where, you know, we took the opportunity, Jeff and I working together, to really shape or reshape the way that the conversation occurs around memory care and what we're doing here at Willow Valley.  

Ray Loewe  07:42

Yeah, now you use when we were talking about this before we got on the air here. You mentioned a word that really disturbed me. And yet it's probably so true, you know, the current model, we're basically warehousing our mentally handicapped people. And I don't want to be warehoused, you're not doing that. I'm gonna be with that lady, I'm sitting in the car, you're not getting me out. And it's gonna take a lot longer than two and a half hours. So how do we deal with that? Because we have to have a place where people are safe. And I think, you know, as a son or daughter of a parent who needs help, you know, the first thing we're concerned about is making sure that person is cared for and making sure that they're safe. But that's not enough, is it?

Lauren Renehan  08:32

It's not enough. If we want to be, you know, person-centered, focused on the individuals, we really do need to change the standard for that. We did as you say, we used to warehouse people. You know you develop dementia, you move into these sort of alms houses, and people don't visit. It's a stigmatized place. And we have those repercussions of what we did before to people still existing through how this medical model is shaping people's perception of what we do today.

Ray Loewe  09:04

Okay, now, one of the things I'm excited about is I live in a wonderful place. It's called Willow Valley Communities. Okay. And Jeff and Lauren are part of a Foundation here. And we have a three-part program to build something better in the memory care area. And Jeff, why don't you take a minute and talk about the three parts of this and why it's so important to have the three parts and have everybody involved, not just the caregivers.

Jeff Kenderdine  09:34

Sure. I think one of the things that we touched on here is really, you know, everybody wants to be treated with respect and dignity. And, oftentimes in the more traditional clinical settings, that's removed, and simple things of freedom of choice. And we have a phrase that we like to use, it's called room to roam. So in this arena that we're talking about on our memory care campus is seven acres, which is secure, it's safe. And it provides the ability for the residents there to freely move about, from their small household out into an outdoor courtyard and so forth. But the key difference is that they get to choose that. And, again, Lauren had mentioned about this being what we'll call the habilitation model, rather than a rehabilitation model. This is less about treating the disease, per se, and more about treating quality of life. So that is really where we're focused on the environment as therapy. And that has been evidence-based to really have a positive impact on individuals living with dementia on their quality of life. So the three components you reference, Ray, were the residential or are the residential component, the support component, which is all around supporting the caregiver, and we'll touch on that. And then the third is really about some of the advances that, because of the partnerships that we're going to have here, through research, through education and training, because of that ripple effect, in particular, with the broader community and the caregivers out there.

Ray Loewe  11:23

You know, let me interrupt for a second because I want to make it clear that some of this is available now. Some of the state of memory care is awful today. So, where you go to put parents or yourself or whoever it is that needs the care is all over the place. But the model that you're building where you are is absolutely incredibly new. So, let me shut Jeff off and go to Lauren over here. And tell us a little bit about some of the things that are being built into the model. I mean, first of all, what's this place gonna look like versus what places look like now? And then we'll come back and talk about technology.

Lauren Renehan  12:08

Sure. So, historically, what we have done is long hallways, hospital-type setting, and in some personal care homes, assisted living nursing homes, what you'll find is still two to four people to a room. And what we've learned through our research and planning for this project is that that's not going to be an option moving forward. People who are operating from a place of late adolescence, early adulthood, didn't have roommates, you know, they were getting married, they were living with spouses or partners for 40-50 years, and it wasn't natural to have a roommate. So, in this new memory care center, what you're going to see are all private rooms, private bathrooms. An upcharge is not existing for those, you know, how can we charge someone more simply because they have a certain diagnosis that really necessitates them having a room to themselves, where they can have their personal belongings, bring things from their past, you know, to decorate the walls and the rooms. And, as Jeff said, this room-to-roam concept, what we have found is, these long hallways are not conducive to memory support. So people who are not any longer oriented to you know, person, place, time, location, any of that, look down a long hallway, they see a door, and they try to what we call exit, seek or elope from that environment because they don't understand why they're there. And we're going to remove that feeling of distress by creating hallways that you know, have natural curvature, they're continuous. So when you walk down the hallway, it's not a door at the end, it's maybe a room that you could possibly go into. And then you turn the corner and there's another room. So what we've done with our existing locations, as you mentioned, is you know, we are changing the script now. So, in Cedarbrook, we do have sort of like a figure eight or a clover, if you will, of hallways that branch off into different halls for rooms or for dining or for outdoor exploration. So, that's what you'll see at the Memory Care Center. And it will be 14 households of 10 people each. And Jeff's really great at describing that greenhouse model that we will employ over there.

Ray Loewe  14:20

We can let Jeff talk, it's okay. All right. So Jeff, tell us about this.  

Jeff Kenderdine  14:28

Again, back to the concept is trying to create as normal of life as possible and to make those connections to their lives prior to dementia. So, one of the things that we're deploying here is a small household model. So, like Lauren said, there are 14 households, 10 residents each. Private bedroom, private bathroom and things like you and I have in our homes: living room, dining room, screened-in porch, a patio, even a den. So those things are the types of things that you would experience in your quote-unquote, normal life every day. So, part of that small household concept is just to make those connections back to their lives before dementia and that cognitive impairment set in. The other aspect is, we have a commons building, which we often refer to as the town center. And again, that's designed to create that normalcy that connection to their lives prior to dementia. And it has aspects like in a village center, a town center with a grocery store. You know, you think about a grocery store, and absolutely, everybody in their lives has been to a grocery store at some point. So that's normal, they can go there, get some apples, bring them back to their home, which has a kitchen, and bake an apple pie. So, it's engaging all of those senses, the smells, the tastes, and just being part of making the pie. And as people learn their preferences, and so forth, again, the quality of life improves for that family, that family of 10. And, you know, if I'm trying to give you coffee, and you're not a coffee drinker, but you can't tell me that, that comes out in frustration. So the more we know and learn each other's preferences, the better  quality of life for everyone.

Ray Loewe  16:29

Okay, so we're gonna get this setting that's very normal. And, my understanding is I can go outside too right, and when I go outside in a controlled environment, where I'm safe, but I can be outside, I don't have to be inside. So that gets rid of a lot of the frustration that people have, right?  

Jeff Kenderdine  16:51

That's right.  

Ray Loewe  16:51

And I would guess that it gets rid of a lot of the apprehensiveness of people coming to visit their loved ones who are in an environment because now it's a fun, to the extent that it can be, environment. Right?  

Lauren Renehan  17:06

Right.  

Ray Loewe  17:07

All right, Lauren, we'll get back to Jeff again, because he wants to talk, but I'm not gonna let him. So let's talk a little bit about the technology pieces here. Because, again, you were saying that, you know, a caregiver might have to interrupt somebody several times a day and take blood pressure to make sure they're healthy and things like that. Well, you've got some tricks up your sleeve now to get around that too. Right?  

Lauren Renehan  17:30

We do. Technology is always advancing and this campus, which what's going to make it so incredible is how expensive it is, it's going to be seven acres. And you know, 140 residents, if you do that math, how do you keep tabs on where everybody is, at all times and what they're doing. And the fact of the matter is, we won't. We'll have technology do that for us. So picture like a Fitbit or an Apple watch something to that extent, and that is doing a lot of the monitoring for us. As you mentioned, it's really not quality of life to stop someone and take their blood pressure to get parameters before we administer their blood pressure medication. That's not something that was done in their early life, perhaps. And it's not something that we want to continue to do now for fear that it may trigger something negative for this person and certainly diminish their dignity. So, technology would monitor you know, where they are, are they sitting or standing? How long have they been outside, given the temperature of their of their environment? When's maybe the last time they took a drink if their hand was up above, above their shoulder per se? What is their blood pressure, what's their heart rate, what's their body temperature. And all of this sort of biometric data is captured, it could be automatically documented, giving the nurses more time to do person-centered care and therapy versus, you know, the documentation that they spend 80% of their time doing. And that, again, frees up the staff. So expansive campus, that's one thing that we're going to do to improve care. But we're also incorporating technology in some other ways. As Jeff said, the environment is really designed to be therapy in and of itself. So, the lighting that we're taking into consideration, it will have a lot of natural lighting, so that people's circadian rhythm you know, acclimates to what it should be, trying to eliminate some of those sundowning features you may have heard of, with some people living with dementia. So that comes across in the roofing structure, but even so much is lighting in their bedrooms. You know, they have pressure-sensitive flooring now or pressure-sensitive socks that you put on people so when they get out of bed at night, it turns on a tiny nightlight, they don't have to remember to turn on the nightlight which we know will not happen with dementia. But you know, everybody gets up in the middle the night to use the restroom and these sort of technological advances will take care of that for us. You know mitigating the risk of falls, helping them to navigate and maintain independence so it's not you know, pressing a button for the nurse to come help you. They're still able to function independently and do those tasks by themselves. Things such as music, you know, maybe there are buttons on the wall for the mood that that person is experiencing. So maybe when they're happy, they, the nurse or their family member coming to visit can press a button on the wall, and it plays a list of their favorite songs that bring them joy, or it presses a button for reminiscence, and it brings them back to maybe their wedding song. And all of these things would be captured at the time that they move into independent living. So you know, it has their input from when they're higher functioning cognitively, it has their family input, friends, and it's something that they can, you know, update and change along the way to match their preferences so that by the time they get to the Memory Care Center, and they're operating at a different place, from a cognitive standpoint, we're able to fill in the gaps where they no longer can. Keep bringing them joy and therapy through the environment.

Ray Loewe  20:58

So how much of that is now and how much of that is the future?

Jeff Kenderdine  21:05

It's actually, it's a little bit of both. Because of what we've learned in the research side of things, in order to really come up with this overall plan, we were able to incorporate some of those advancements into the expansion and renovations of our current Memory Care Center called Cedarbrook. And probably the best example of that, beyond eliminating the straight long hallways, it's now has curvature so you can walk and walk and walk is our garden room or greenhouse. And in there, the residents in our Memory Center are able to tend to the plants and certainly, it's all edible, just in case. But it gives them purpose and gives them meaning.

Ray Loewe  21:50

Yeah, so the Fitbit that Lauren was talking about how current is that? Or is that something that we're not gonna see for 10 years?

Lauren Renehan  21:58

If we wanted to see it now, we could, but those are sort of the partnerships we're working with, as far as you know, universities and things who could create those widgets for us to be specific for our needs and our environment.

Ray Loewe  22:11

Okay, so now let's change the tenor of this a little bit because there's all kinds of memory care out there. Okay. And to some extent, you get what you research and you get what you pay for. And let's talk about your project, specifically here. Now, you have pretty much a state-of-the-art memory care going where we are, okay. But you have this project that Lauren was talking about with the single rooms, the 10 rooms to a group or their own private dining room, the street scenes and things like that. And that's in process of actually being developed now, where you are. So first, is there a website so the people who want to know more about this can tack on and look at it?

Lauren Renehan  23:01

Yes, foundation.WillowValleyCommunities.org is our Foundation website. And that's really where we're hosting a lot of the information surrounding this future Memory Care Center. So if people log on to there, there tabs at the top, the about tab goes to opportunities for giving, and you can click on memory care center right there and learn about everything.

Ray Loewe  23:24

Okay, so if I want to find out, and we'll publish that so that people don't have to remember that, we'll put that in our podcast notes. And going back to Jeff over here, I know, the way that you're putting this together is fascinating because you have three partners in funding this thing. And at first, that bothered me and the more I got to think about it, the more I got that being part of this involves being part of it. So talk a little bit about what you're trying to do and when this thing is going to take place at Willow Valley, or at least as best you can.

Jeff Kenderdine  24:00

Sure. The overall project budget, if you will, is $50 million. And Willow Valley Communities is putting in $30 million of its own resources. And we often get asked, Willow Valley Communities is a 501c3 organization and we get asked often that well, why can't they just build this on their own? And the answer is they could build a Memory Care Center, $30 million Memory Care Center, but it wouldn't be this memory care center. And the beauty of you know, our involvement as a Foundation is we get to bring philanthropy to make this possible and make it happen. And the difference is it's not imposed on everyone like a tax, or an increase in fees. This is truly, like the word philanthropy implies, this is a choice because people care about it. They care about the impact that it's going to have. And our job has really been just to have individual conversations like this, group conversations and educating people about what this means, and the impact that it's going to have for not only themselves, their friends and family, but future generations. And the response we've had has been absolutely amazing.

Ray Loewe  25:17

I'm excited about it. I mean, this is going to be me at some point in time in the future.  

Jeff Kenderdine  25:23

It's going to be all of us.  

Ray Loewe  25:23

And being able to contribute and help in the design and the building of this is great. And you've marshaled outside help to do this too. And in the form of matching stuff. So good job, whatever it is you're doing, keep going it. All right. We're near the end of our time so let me ask Lauren first, do you have any closing comments or anything that we didn't say that you think we have to address?

Lauren Renehan  25:49

I think if people get the chance to watch the little video that's on our website, they'll learn so much about the amenities that will be there. So, not just the grocery store, like Jeff mentioned, but a bistro-like a sit down restaurant, an indoor stage, that courtyard is going to be the size of a football field. So things like that to create that normalcy, where it's no longer appropriate for someone living with dementia, or no longer comfortable rather for them to go out into those public spaces as their world begins to shrink. That's really going to be key to changing the conversation here and reducing that stigma so that all of those generations and friends and family are coming to visit. The other thing I think is so important is the caregiver support that Jeff touched on, and we will have an adult day service where caregivers can come and bring their person living with dementia to enjoy the amenities of the Memory Care Center. And so this isn't so much about what it's going to do to change the lives of those living with dementia at the center. But for all of the caregivers, you know, across our community and county and state and region to come in and get some education and have a little bit of reprieve from what they do on a 24/7 basis.  

Ray Loewe  26:58

Yeah. And Jeff, final comments?  

Jeff Kenderdine  27:00

Yeah, I believe the one thing I think is important for the audience to understand is that they're not alone in this. As a caregiver, it felt very lonely and I had no idea about how to interact with my father with dementia and knew nothing about it. And oftentimes, it's the health of the caregiver that really suffers, that they wind up saying, I just can't do this anymore. And then they move to a Memory Care Center. But this really starts to remove that stigma associated with dementia and enables that conversation. In fact, because of this project, we've had countless conversations with individuals that have been touched by dementia in some way, shape, or form. And there's a lot of fear associated with it, family members, caregivers, and we really want to be the hub for training, providing the support that they need, and really just to lighten an otherwise dark journey. And this is all about creating those moments of joy, moments of happiness, where the family members come, the grandkids come and they want to visit in our sit-down bistro restaurant. You know, where do you see that in a Memory Care Center?

Ray Loewe  28:15

Well, you know, thank you both for your comments. I think it's very helpful for us people who think we're the luckiest people in the world and know about this because this is going to get in our way and it's something that we have to figure out how to get around. And the technology is there, the thought is there. I think it's a wonderful project. So thanks for being with us and Bill, sign us off.

Outro  28:40

Thank you for listening to Changing the Rules. Join us next week for more conversation, our special guest and to hear more from the luckiest guy in the world.

Transcription:

Intro  00:03

Welcome to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best lives, and advice on how you can achieve that too. Join us with your lively host, Ray Lowe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Ray Loewe00:17

Well, good morning, everybody, and welcome to "Changing the Rules." We have an incredible guest today and I'm incredibly excited about doing this conversation that we're going to have, and you'll understand in a minute. But, I did want to take a minute and talk about the fact that I'm changing the rules. We try and talk to one of the luckiest people in the world every week. The luckiest people in the world are people who kind of design their own lives, figure out what they want to do and then they step into their personally designed lives and live them under their own terms. You're going to see that Don Helin, who is certainly one of those people today, and he does that. We also named our show, "Changing the Rules." One of the reasons for that is the luckiest people in the world only rules. But, they need to sometimes take all those rules that have been given to them over the years by the church, their parents, their schools, their businesses, and everything else. In this case, the military, okay, and try to sculpt them to fit their own lives. According to Steve Jobs, when you live your life under somebody else's rules, you're not living your life. All right. So, Don Helin, on military eye, travel writer, lobbyist, and award-winning author. Good morning, Don. 

Don Helin01:48

Well, good morning, Ray. It's great to be here.

Ray Loewe01:50

Did I miss anything in your background here? I think we got the highlights, right? 

Don Helin01:53

Yeah, the luckiest guy in the world because I'm married to Elaine Howe, and she's probably one of the sweetest people in the world. So, that makes me pretty lucky.

Ray Loewe02:00

So, when we were preparing for this interview, I started talking to Don. Don is an award-winning author. Let me just give you a partial list of his books, Twins, Roof of the World, Long Walk Home, Angels Revenge, Secret Assault, and The Kingdom Come. I'm sure I left some out. You know, I was looking at Don's website yesterday and kind of a reviewing for this meeting. All of a sudden I see on there, one of my all-time favorite authors (that I've read, every one of his books) is endorsing Don's book, Twins.  A guy by the name of John Lead. Let me read one of his quotes real quickly, "Terrifying tale that is flawlessly constructed." This is what we're talking to this morning. Before I let you loose here. The reason I'm excited is I've always wanted to get into the head of an author that I really like and try and figure out what makes him tick. Because how in the heck do you get these plots? How do you get these characters? They got to come from some creative mind from somewhere.

Don Helin03:15

Okay, you got most of them. You're absolutely right. I'm lucky because I started out with my books, and I created a character. My character is Zack Kelly. He's an army colonel that works for the President's National Security Adviser. When I was learning the trade, I happened to be mentored by a guy named Lee Childs. Lee has quite a character that he's used over the years. So rather than having a different character, each book, I've learned to live with Zack Kelly. Zack has a small team that work with him on the President's National Security Advisor. That team is to help the National Security Advisor cut through bureaucracy, which there's plenty of in the military. When something happens, he doesn't wait and go through five different layers. He sends somebody out to see if he can figure out what's going on.

Ray Loewe04:22

So, what comes first when you write a book, the character or the plot?

Don Helin04:28

For me, it's the characters, pretty much ongoing. But, you've got a whole lot of other characters and it's the old saw of what's more important, a plot or a character. They both have their place. Also, when everybody's making this argument, they forget all about the setting, because you have to put your character someplace that the people can see and can enjoy. He has to show he can live someplace

ay Loewe04:59

Alright, let's go back half a step here, you have your character that you've developed over time. So, I'm sure going forward, a plot comes after the character. Let's talk about what it took to develop this character, and how do you have to think about a character? You got to know this guy inside out, right? 

Don Helin05:21

Yeah, I was really fortunate, I had gotten probably about three books with Zach. I was never quite comfortable about him. Then, I happened to attend a writers conference and at that writers conference was a creative writing professor from Berkeley. He said, "What you have to do is develop a bio, for each one of your characters, not just your lead character, but your villain, and all the key people. Because, you know, some people think, well, I'm going to make this awful villain. The villain is, and all your characters have to be some good and some bad. So, what I did, there's three areas that we develop for that character, one is a physical, second is a social, and third is a psychological. By the physical, we're not saying how important it is or how tall he is. What is important? If he's a little guy, what did that due to his development? Was he bullied?  You can kind of take his physical characteristics and say, "Hey, how did that help him or hold him in developing?" Suppose Barbra Streisand, couldn't sing? How would her life have changed? So you take the physical traits and then you take where they grew up. You know, were they private school in New England? Or were they in PT 104 In New York City? How would that develop? Then psychological, for example, my hero, Zack Kelly has a very moderate case of post-traumatic stress disorder, which once in a while, he's out doing some, and he starts having a problem. So, these are the things that make our character human. By developing a bio for each one of those characters, I don't fumble on what they would be because what we're trying to do is develop motivation. In other words, what you want to do is develop your characters. For example, you got your heroes, Zack Kelly, and you got the villain. Each of them are motivated based on what's in their bio motivated to do something. When they're both motivated, and they're motivated in the opposite direction. What happens? You've got conflict. Conflict is what makes the book.

Ray Loewe07:57

Yeah. So, are you Zack Kelly?

Don Helin08:02

Am I Zack Kelly? I'm asked that a lot. I would have to say I'm not as good-looking as Zack Kelly. I don't have as many friends as Zack Kelly, as far as ladies that think he's... I'm not quite the athlete, that Zack Kelly is. Because, I think they always say in the bios, your characters are kind of dramatized to be special. Because, if you make your hero, just kind of an average guy, he's not as exciting as if he's an interesting guy.

Ray Loewe08:37

Yeah, I'm sure. So when you came up with Zach Kelly, how much of that came out of your experience being in the military? How much of it came from research that you did? How much of it came from just seeing people on the street?

Don Helin08:53

It's hard to say what percentage, but it's all involved, you know, because Zach, for example, is a single parent. That's what makes him human. The first two books, Zach did not have his daughter living with him. But his wife ended up in trouble. So, Laura came to live with him. Now Zach is while he's out saving the world someplace and doing all the stuff he's been writing about. He gets a phone call, Dad, you're supposed to be here. You're coaching my soccer team, Dad, come on. That's reality, and everybody can kind of live in that story. So, guess who's got three beautiful daughters who have been through that? So it's kind of growing on me. Things that have happened to me. Things I learned in the Pentagon, and things I've just picked up along the way.

Ray Loewe09:53

So your characters actually evolve and change? Okay. What about some of the other characters? You ever just meet people on the street and find out all of a sudden, you know, their character in your book?

Don Helin10:05

I think the best one... I'm glad you mentioned that. Elaine and I were up in Canada, we always love to go into bookstores. We were sitting there and my wife's an artist, so she always has her camera with her and this guy comes in, and he's got orange stripe down the center of his head. He's got your earrings, a nose ring. He's got the black boots and all that. I said to Elaine, I said, "Can you get his picture for me?" She said, "Sure." What she does, since she never wants anybody to know she's taking their picture so she will hold up the camera and then she shakes the camera. I say, "What's wrong?" She says, "I don't know."  Well, she's got four pictures of the guy. So what I did is, I took him home in a picture. I put them in this file that I have of people. One day, Zach is up to his neck at the Pentagon and he comes home, and he pulls up in front of the house and Laura is up his daughter, his 18 and a half-year-old daughter is up talking to this guy. What does this guy look like? He's got an orange stripe on his head, got earrings, and nose ring. Zack walks up and Laura says, "Dad, dad, I want you to meet Rodney Barnes. Rodney is the lead guitar for the evildoers. I met him six months ago and I I know he's not your kind of guy. But, Dad, I hope you'll go to one of his concerts with me because I'm all excited for you to get to know Rodney because I really like him. Zach looks at Rodney. Rodney? Yeah, man, that's me and that goes on from there. See, there's a cliche character that ends up there. What is Rodney really like? You don't find out for a while. So, you got to buy out on Rodney. If I want to be in one of your books, I have to have orange hair. Is that what you're telling me? We have to know enough to make you an interesting character and make you believable.

Ray Loewe12:27

Okay, so these BIOS continue. How many pages is Zach's bio at this point right?

Don Helin12:34

Right now it's about almost two pages.

Ray Loewe12:38

Let's switch a little bit because another part of a book is the plot. Where the heck do these come from? Where do they come from?

Don Helin12:49

Ray, they're everywhere. It's a matter of looking. Let me just tell you, my fourth book, Long Walk Home developed when I was up in New York. It turned out that I would go to thriller fest every year and the Grand Hyatt Hotel where thriller fest had the program, had a special discount. They said we'll give you a big discount, it's only going to cost you $230 a night to stay in the hotel. I'm lucky because I'm retired military. So, the Coast Guard has a guest house on a side island. I thought well, what I will do is just stay at the guest house, then every morning on Staten Island, then every morning I would catch the Staten Island Ferry. We would take it across, then we get the Metro and buzz up to the program. You know, what a thriller writer is always looking for is two little words. What if, What if, one day as I was riding across on the Staten Island Ferry, the sun is shining, the birds are singing and flying around. Then, all of a sudden, I thought what if somebody hijacked the Staten Island Ferry. Then I said, "Why would anybody do that? Who would do that?" From that question, developed Long Walk Home, when the Staten Island Ferry is hijacked where Laura is on it. That's the story that gets you going.

Ray Loewe14:40

Cool. Okay, so obviously you're a creative guy, you're observant. You've got some background that filters into your books and stuff like that. But, you know, when we were talking, one of the things that you really said is that you don't do this alone. Okay, that you've been involved in all these writing associations, and you have mentors.  Why don't you take a minute and talk about a couple of your mentors and how they impacted what you do? Because we probably have some people up there, who all want to write that great novel, and have no idea how to begin.

Don Helin15:13

I'm so lucky, I've been an active member of PEN writers, which is a statewide writers group. In every conference, they always have what they call, a new writer can bring in just the first two pages of your book. Then, seasoned writers, they have agents and editors who will read it and give you feedback. I felt so good about these two pages. I thought, oh, man, these are wonderful. My writer, who was Nancy Martin, who has written something like 50 novels, and I thought, oh, man, she's going to love it. And of course, you know, what happened? She tore it to shreds, you know. So I limped out of there and then I went home and I started to think. Let me think, now, I have not written any novels yet and Nancy has written 50.  Is there a chance, she may have some idea of what she's talking about? So I took her advice, I worked through the book again and that became my first published book.

Ray Loewe16:21

Okay, so these are not self-published books. You actually have a real agent, a publisher, and everything else. So how did that come about? Because most people don't have that when they start? 

Don Helin16:34

What you do is... There's a big fat document called "Writer's Market." You can get it at every library and every bookstore. You go in, and you start going through it. You say, okay, go to thrillers, who are all the publishers that publish thrillers? Who are all the agents that help you with that? You go in, and you start sending out letters, and you become this guy that keeps getting all these turndowns from publishers and agents and editors. You know, until one day, you get what is called, we call "The Call." The call comes, and it's, "Hi, Don, this is Shirley and I'm from Medallion Press and we'd like to publish your book. That is the call!Of course, then I got another call because I published it. That was my first novel and I had a second one all set when I got another call. They said, "We're sorry, but we're discontinuing our mass market line. We could keep publishing you as an e-book, but not as a mass market." I said, "How would that work?"  I looked at Elaine, she looked at me and I said, "So, we started all over again, with sending out those letters and all that sort of stuff."

Ray Loewe17:53

So, a lot of it comes from hanging out at these writers' conferences and meeting people. Talk a bit about the mentors, because you had Lee Childs. Lee Childs is another guy that I read extensively. So again, your book just went up on the list and more.  I only have one book, and I think I'm going to dump it and go to yours. Let's talk a little bit about mentors.  How do you get them? What happens? How do they affect what you do?

Don Helin18:18

Yeah, it's the group that you join.  I joined International Thriller Writers and they have what they call "The Debut Authors Group." Now, you have to go after it, you have to go sign up. Then, they meet like, once a month, and everything that they do is online, because you have people in all the countries, all the cities throughout the United States. Lee is the coordinator. Lee was our coordinator and then he would bring in John Bland, and all these other wonderful writers.  Each one would talk about how to do setting and how to write a bio, and how to do all this sort of stuff. It was so helpful. That was really it plus you met people who could help you, who could give you blurbs, who could do stuff like that. So, I think, between 10 writers, and International Thriller Writers, I got so much help. Now, what I'm doing, I'm also a mystery writer for America. They have now a mentor program. So, I'm a mentor and there's not much I can do for lead trials. There's not much I can do for Nancy Martin, who now has over 100 books, but writers pass it down. You know, my job, I think now is to help writers coming up through the system.

Ray Loewe19:46

Outstanding! So you got your bio of your characters, you got your plot, but you also have to be a politician because you got to show your book and you got to position the right way. Take a minute. We're almost at the end of our time. Take a second... What kind of advice would you give to people who are those aspiring writers out there? Do you just put it aside and say, I can't do this? Or how do you get motivated?

Don Helin20:13

Well, what do you want to do? See, a writer has to have two personalities. One, writing is an art, I always tell new writers, writing is an art. The publishing is a business. I spend probably half my time writing, but I spend the other half marketing. That's why I have a website that people can go to. I'm very active on Facebook. I'm very fortunate, that my publisher is very active. We now are on Zoom. We have a whole program called "Zoom into Books," and monthly we'll do a presentation. Then they'll say, "Hey, if you want Don's book, you can go to his publisher, and just pick it up." She's got a number of my signed things that she can paste into the book, so you can get a signed book.

Ray Loewe21:10

Well, I'm not sure I'm met my goal here. I think I'm partially into the head of an author here. Okay. You certainly have had a fascinating life. You've certainly, your processes are extremely interesting. Thanks, for people that are listening, and who can take some of your advice. Do you have any final comments you want to make before we sign off?

Don Helin21:30

No. It's just that I have really enjoyed learning to write. But, the one thing that I would say is "Don't Give Up." Most people will start, they have that great idea but get in the middle of it, and you get to what I call the saggy middle. You look at this saying, that's no good, it'll never sell, it's terrible and you quit. Don't quit! Keep writing and even if you're not crazy about it, get through.  Because I ended up going back through my book editing probably 15-20 times. So the first one, that first time through is not that great. And it's not. But you know what, you can make a great by working hard on it. I have a number of readers who helped me, who give me good ideas, and you know what, right, I listened to them. I learned through Nancy -- I listened to them.

Ray Loewe22:28

This is why Don is one of the luckiest people in the world. With that, I don't think there's anything more to say except your website, which is DonHelin.com. Okay, d o n h e l i n and we're going to post that on the notes when we publish your conversation here. So, people can find out where to get a start to meet you. And Luke sign is off. 

Outro  22:59

Thank you for listening to "Changing the Rules." Join us next week for more conversation, our special guest and to hear more from the luckiest guy in the world.

Transcription:

Ray Loewe00:02

Welcome to Changing the Rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best lives and advice on how you can achieve that too. Join us with your lively host, Ray Lowe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world. Good morning everybody and welcome to our new podcast studio in Willow Valley, Pennsylvania. And we're here with brand new equipment, we have an engineer with us, Steve Wright, and Steve's at, I guess you call it a keyboard. Steve, I don't know what it is, but you manipulate things to make us sound better. All right. And I've got a great guest today. But before we get into the guest, I want to go back and mention the luckiest people in the world. So, the luckiest people in the world are those people who design their own lives, and then step into them and live them under their own terms. And you're going to see today that Kim is definitely one of those people. And the name of our show is Changing the Rules. And you know, all through our lives, we've been fed rules. We got them from our parents, the schools came in and threw new rules at us, then our jobs throw rules at us, the church thows rules at us. And in between, we've had other people that throw rules at us. And I think it was Steve Jobs that said that if you live your life by somebody else's rules, you're not living your life. And if you think about it, rules are meant for two things. They either tell you what you can't do or what you have to do. So, the luckiest people in the world are pretty good at sifting through those rules and changing them to make them fit their lifestyle and the lifestyle that they want to have. So today our guest is from downtown Lititz, Pennsylvania, about 10 miles away from here. And there are four themes that she mentioned to me when we did our pre-interview. So here's what they are: Chocolate is a recurring theme in my life. All right. Adventure travel is a recurring theme in my life. I make my choices so that I can be happy. And last but not least, I love my life. So, Kim Schaller, I hope I pronounced that right, is our guest today. And Kim say hello to everybody. 

Kim Schaller02:39

Hi, I'm so excited to be here. Thank you. 

Ray Loewe02:42

Okay, well, you've had an exciting life. And I think what's going to happen is after this is done, everybody, first of all is going to know you're one of the luckiest people in the world. And then second of all, they're all going to want your life. So let's talk a little bit about going back. You worked many, many years for Hershey, right? 

Kim Schaller03:02

I did, 31 years.

Ray Loewe03:04

31 years. So there is chocolate in your life, right? 

Kim Schaller03:08

There is chocolate in my life for sure. 

Ray Loewe03:10

And now you live in a condo, which is in what? 

Kim Schaller03:14

In the old Wilbur Chocolate Factory. So I worked for a chocolate company and I live in a chocolate factory.

Ray Loewe03:19

And I would bet that somewhere between you eat chocolate too? 

Kim Schaller03:22

I do.

Ray Loewe03:23

Yeah, isn't that wonderful? 

Kim Schaller03:24

You know, I think when chocolate is around you, I'm just sort of immune to the lure at this point. It's there, but I do enjoy it.

Ray Loewe03:32

Okay, so you've had those two things, and then at this point in your life, your life is composed of being on several advisory boards, we're not going to take the time to talk about all of them. But you're active, you keep your mind active and stuff like that. But what we really want to talk about is the adventure travel that you are doing. Okay, and I think this is what. I'm searching for a word here, but this is what Kim's life is all about. And I think the first thing to start with is you're single, right?

Kim Schaller04:08

I am. I was married 26 years, but I'm single now.

Ray Loewe04:11

And you don't let this stop you from going anywhere. 

Kim Schaller04:15

No, I don't. 

Ray Loewe04:16

So, everybody out there that's single, get rid of the barriers right now. There's no excuse.

Kim Schaller04:22

Especially single women. I think a lot of women don't want to do that. There's a definite risk and there's fear. But you just have to do it.

Ray Loewe04:30

And you don't really travel alone. I mean, you leave alone, you're by yourself, but you join groups of people. So you're not alone. And there's some structure there and you get to meet a whole bunch of people that you didn't know before.

Kim Schaller04:41

Right, I'm into active travel. So I've traveled with companies that do hiking and biking and multi-adventure trips all around the world. I start out alone and I will usually visit the country for a couple days on my own before the trip actually starts. And then I meet all kinds of interesting people. The trips range from 10 to 20 people and we bike and hike and kayak. And so I love it. I love it.

Ray Loewe05:05

Okay, so give us an example of someplace you've been recently that excited you? 

Kim Schaller05:10

Well, I'll tell you what. I mean, I figure I'm 64 years old, I've got plenty of years ahead. And I have spent quite a bit of time in Europe. But these trips, I go to places that really scare me, I go, the further away, the better. So I've been to Patagonia, I've been to Bhutan, I did the Mont Blanc circuit and France and Italy and Switzerland, Iceland. I go places that I know, the older I get, and I know courage is going to be a big thing as I get older, so I go to the places that scare me now. So that's been my sort of philosophy on travel.

Ray Loewe05:42

And, you know, we met some people in Antarctica a long time ago in and the story that I remember the most is, we used to go out every day on an excursion. And one day, the people we had dinner with the night before just didn't go out. And I cornered them at lunch. And I said, where were you this morning? They said, well, we looked at the hill we had to walk up and we didn't think we could make it. And that's been a lesson that has stuck with me. They came back and said, you know, we put off this trip until we felt stronger financially. And now we feel really strong financially, and we have the time available, and we can't walk up the hill.

Kim Schaller06:19

I know. Exactly. That's a great illustration of what I'm talking about. We've gotta do it now.

Ray Loewe06:24

Okay, so give me an example of the kinds of groups that you might travel with. And you know, where do you find these things? How do you get the idea for your next trip?

Kim Schaller06:32

Well, the biggest company that I've worked for is Backroads. And they're headquartered in Berkeley, California, and you just got to backroads.com. And there's trips literally all over the world with all different difficulty levels. So if you're looking for a simpler kind of hiking trip, you do that, but the challenging ones right now are the ones I've been going for. So it keeps me fit. It just keeps me realizing that there's a big world out there. Well, COVID really screwed with me though. I had to cancel two trips during COVID that I was really excited for. But backroads I would really recommend people take a look at that.

Ray Loewe07:07

Well, I would bet you didn't cancel them, you postponed them. 

Kim Schaller07:10

I postponed them. But yeah, Machu Picchu was one of them that I was really looking forward to. But it is postponed. Exactly.

Ray Loewe07:18

So when you go on one of these trips, and they say there's hiking on it, how far will you walk a day when you do these things? 

Kim Schaller07:25

Well, it depends. Like a challenging trip, you could hike, I don't know, 15 miles a day. But the challenging part is the elevation, the elevation gains. When you did Mont Blanc, we were doing elevation gains of 4,000 feet a day. So you hike up 4,000 feet and down 4,000 feet. So it was the elevation that really gets me, not the distance.

Ray Loewe07:46

So, for you, you know you have to be in shape. But you're telling us also that if you're not in as good shape as you are, there are still trips? 

Kim Schaller07:54

There are still trips.

Ray Loewe07:54

Yeah. Okay, so let's take a couple of examples. Now you were talking about Bhutan? Land of Happiness. So give us a couple minutes here.

Kim Schaller08:07

Well, that was one right after I retired, I retired seven years ago. And happy had always been part of my career. I worked for Hershey, and if people know, Hershey Park happiness or Hershey is one of the key brand attributes of Hershey. So I was fascinated with this whole happiness concept. And I heard about Bhutan, where they measure the citizen's happiness versus gross national product. They're less focused on economic factors and more on lifestyle and wellbeing. So that just really intrigued me. So I went there. It's a little tiny country of about 800,000 people between China and India. And it is just a fascinating place. So that's where I went.

Ray Loewe08:49

So when you talk about fascinating now you're mingling with local people, right? And so what makes them.. why are they happy?

Kim Schaller08:57

Well, because they understand that the leadership of the country puts their happiness ahead of economic development. So nature, which is their key, natural resources is the key to Bhutan's success. 70% of the country is still forested. Tourism is a big aspect for them, but they are really trying to manage the level of tourism so life doesn't change too dramatically.

Ray Loewe09:21

You mean, they are actually leaders that want to make you happy?

Kim Schaller09:25

They are leaders that focus on that. 

Ray Loewe09:27

Okay, you find some of them for us? 

Kim Schaller09:29

Exactly. And they measure it, every two years, they do a survey of the population to see how they're tracking with happiness. And I'll tell you, they're not the happiest country in the world, like Finland and Norway score higher, but they're working at it, which is what I believe is progress.

Ray Loewe09:47

Okay. Now another one. This is one I've always wanted to go to, and I've been on the fringes of this one but Patagonia. So I was down at the bottom of South America, Ushuaia you know, it's kind of where you enter one way to Patagonia but what's Patagonia all about? What do you do when you're there?

Kim Schaller10:07

I hiked. I mean that's basically what did, I hiked. But I was telling you before the best thing about Patagonia is you're in the same time zone it get on a plane and travel 15 hours south but you still don't have to adjust to a different time zone. So you can literally hit the ground running when you get there. Which is what we did, hit the ground hiking. 

Ray Loewe10:27

Okay, now you're saying you hiked but you know, when you take these trips that you take, they do portage luggage and things like that. I'm not carrying my two suitcases.

Kim Schaller10:39

Let's be clear. I am not into getting in a tent and sleeping overnight. No, we stay in beautiful hotels unique to the regions. But no, you get in a van and they take you from trailhead to trailhead. And I'm not carrying my bag so we should be clear. I don't want to mislead anybody.

Ray Loewe10:56

Yeah, especially older folk like me. You know, I'm into hiking but I'm also not into camping. You know, my idea of camping is at least a Marriott.

Kim Schaller11:07

I need a bed. Yes.

Ray Loewe11:10

All right, so what enthralled you about Patagonia? Why would I want to go there?

Kim Schaller11:15

I think it truly felt to me otherworldly. It is so spectacularly beautiful. We spent one day just hiking on a glacier, which I think everybody at some point in your life, you need to experience these kinds of things.

Ray Loewe11:29

And Patagonia is where? It's the southern part of Chile?

Kim Schaller11:34

We actually were on the Brazil on that other side, the Argentina side, but we saw the Chilean mountains and they said over across that ridge is Chile. So yeah, we were right there. 

Ray Loewe11:45

Okay, how's the wine in those areas?

Kim Schaller11:47

The wine is great. The food is great. 

Ray Loewe11:50

We have to get the important things. You know, our engineer is sitting here, thinking you know, hiking is okay. But you know a glass of wine at night is a necessary part of things.

Kim Schaller12:00

And that's the camaraderie and that's how you build the relationships at night to sit and have a glass of wine and just reminisce about your day.

Ray Loewe12:06

Okay, talk about Iceland.

Kim Schaller12:08

And Iceland is so easy to get to from the northeast. I mean, I think if you live in California, it's a whole different thing. But you're there in a quick number of hours, direct flight into Reykjavik. And it was also like the otherworldly places, places that just don't look like anything you see in the US.

Ray Loewe12:27

So I have been to Iceland. And one of the things I remember this is not going to be one of your highlights. There's actually a Pizza Hut in Reykjavik.

Kim Schaller12:35

And there's a McDonald's too which is mortifying. 

Ray Loewe12:38

And well, I stay away from that. But we finally got to the point where one night we just had to have a pizza. So we go to this place and the pizza is different. You know, and if you think about it, the pizza is heavy in cheese, light in tomato sauce because goats and cows are readily available but tomatoes? Trying to grow those in the northern climates doesn't work.

Kim Schaller13:00

No, it's all hothouse. They grow everything there.

Ray Loewe13:03

So I take it you have not done the Pizza Hut? 

Kim Schaller13:05

No, I have not. I ate and, don't judge me, but I did it because when in Rome, I ate whale, I ate puffin, I ate horse. So, I felt the need to try the things that were to that area. So I tried them. And I'm still here. I did feel bad about the puffin though. Those adorable birds are just everywhere. And I ate one.

Ray Loewe13:31

Okay, I'm gonna let that just kind of sit and dangle here. You know, it's a shame you're not passionate about this travel. Okay, so where else have you been that we have to talk about, and then where haven't you been that you're going next?

Kim Schaller13:48

My next trip is Morocco. That's coming up in the fall. I'm gonna go to Morocco and go to Casablanca, which I'm really excited for. That will be the pretrip, but just hiking out into the desert in Morocco and riding a camel and so that's coming up. I've been to Costa Rica, I've been to Belize, Cartagena. I really like South America, that seems to be a place where I have a lot of interest in.

Ray Loewe14:12

Now what causes that? Just uniquely you think? 

Kim Schaller14:18

I don't know. I think maybe I have this sort of anti-Europe thing at this point. Because I feel like I can go to Europe easily as I get older, but I want to go to the places like I was in Columbia, South America. And it's kind of a pretty scary place when you're going through the forest and not knowing what's going to be around the next corner. So it's a fear thing. I'm just, I want to conquer those, and then I feel like I can go to the tamer, calmer, more civilized places.

Ray Loewe14:46

All right. I'm thinking here, you've got my mind going a mile a minute, you know, and I thought I'd been to a lot of places but you've been a lot of places that I haven't been to. 

Kim Schaller14:58

That was the goal when I started my travel and again, I didn't start this until after I retired. Because I was like a lot of people, I was a working person, raising a daughter, doing all the more traditional vacations while raising her. You know, Disney World, Turks, and Caicos, Jamaica, like all the things that other people do.

Ray Loewe15:18

Now, how do you stay in shape for this? I mean, do you actually have to a workout routine so that you can take your trips?

Kim Schaller15:24

I do. And I have a big dog, I have a golden retriever, who it's required daily walking with him. So, I do a lot of walking. I bike around Lancaster County, which is just such a beautiful biking destination, but I do have an E-bike. So, full disclosure, I have an E-bike. Just because I want to protect my knees, and I love biking. 

Ray Loewe15:46

So okay, let's get into some advice here. So, I think I know that when people listen to this, they're gonna say, oh, my God, where did this lady come from? You know, how did she do this? Why? Why did she do all of these things? So talk a little bit about, and you can structure this towards single females if you want, or you can structure it towards anybody. What's important when you think about your future and how you're doing this, why do people want to get out? How do they get out? What are the things that they have to do?

Kim Schaller16:14

I think, for me, as I said, I was married for 26 years. I just have complete freedom right now. I don't have to compromise. I don't have to share and this might sound like I'm so selfish, but I am just loving this stage of my life. Doesn't mean I want to be alone for the rest of my life. But it just means that I really love the opportunity that I have to do what I want, when I want.

Ray Loewe16:46

Okay, the first trip that you took alone, where was it to?

Kim Schaller16:50

I went to Sevilla, I'd hiked from Granada to Sevilla in Spain. That was my first one.

Ray Loewe16:56

Go to lady.

Kim Schaller16:58

No, I don't think that and I don't think I'm extraordinary in any way. I think this is within every single person. You just have to do it. Because we've got one chance here, we're here once. So if we don't do it now, I don't want to be at the end of my life and just wish I would have done things.

Ray Loewe17:18

Okay, I think that's probably a good place to stop. But we're not going to stop there. I've got one more question. So if you're looking at the world, how many countries do you think you've been in?

Kim Schaller17:29

I don't know. I haven't counted. I need to do that.

Ray Loewe17:32

And how many continents? What continents haven't you been on yet?

Kim Schaller17:37

I haven't been to Australia. I haven't been to New Zealand. I haven't been to Soviet Union. I haven't been there's been a lot of places I haven't been, truly.

Ray Loewe17:48

So, you're gonna live to be 140 years old. So you can get these all in. 

Kim Schaller17:52

I'm gonna try. 

Ray Loewe17:53

Yeah. And I think that's one of the big lessons that I'm gathering from you is that it's a really big world. And if you want to see any of it, you better get off your tail and get moving too. 

Kim Schaller18:03

And get over the fear. 

Ray Loewe18:04

All right, we're about out of time. Any last-minute comments before we sign off?

Kim Schaller18:08

No, Ray. And you inspire me too. I mean, you really do, people like you, people need to be listening to people like you.

Ray Loewe18:16

Okay, well, that's a commercial and we'll get you on the social media channels soon. And you can do that. But, you know, thanks so much for being you. And thanks for being here. Because, you know, the luckiest people in the world design their own lives, whatever they are. And in your case, it's obviously built around travel, and it's built around staying fit and healthy. And thanks for being a role model that you are and we're going to have to have you back after the next adventure just to catch up. All right. And let's, let's finish with one thing that emphasizes and I got this from a book a long time ago, and that is that there's no such thing as a bad trip. Only a good story. 

Kim Schaller19:00

So true.

Ray Loewe19:01

So, Steve, sign us off, please. Thank you for listening to Changing the Rules. Join us next week for more conversation, our special guest and to hear more from the luckiest guy in the world.

Transcription:

Intro  00:02

Welcome to Changing the Rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best lives and advice on how you can achieve that too. Join us with your lively host Ray Lowe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Ray Loewe00:18

Hi, everybody, this is Ray Lowe, and welcome to Changing the Rules. You know, this week we're going to do something a little different. We also have been recording podcasts on another network and we had one the other day that is just so good. And it just fits so well with the Changing the Rules network that I have to make it available to you. So, we're going to be talking with a young lady by the name of Marianne, and rather than make a lot of comments, let's just listen to our podcast.  Welcome to the willow Valley podcasting channel where exciting podcasts are created by Willow Valley residents, for Willow Valley residents, and about Willow Valley residents. And good morning, everybody. My name is Ray Loewe, and I'm a member of the podcast club here. And I want to welcome everybody to our brand new podcast studios here at Willow Valley communities. And we have an exciting guest today. All right, so I need to kind of set the stage for this because Marianne is on the staff here. She works here; her full name is Mary Ann Steinhauer and I met her because she was running the concierge desk over in the north building. And she was indispensable to me. You know, first of all, she had all my packages and, unless I behaved, I couldn't get them. And second of all, whenever I needed some information about where to go or where something was going on, she's the person who had it. But then the surprise came because I found out that Marianne has hidden talents way beyond what she was doing. And I found out, and I don't remember how the conversation came about, and Marianne, you can fill us in, but I found out that Marianne pilots hot air balloons.

Mary Ann Steinhauer  02:09

It may have been a reference to how I was so full of hot air. And I just jumped right on it.

Ray Loewe02:16

Well, whatever it is, it just changed our whole relationship because I've been fortunate enough that I have been up in a hot air balloon. I've been in a chase car chasing around at other people, who were in a hot air balloon. And I was lucky enough to be at the Albuquerque Balloon Festival, where 800 balloons went up in the air at one time and the sky was filled with color and it's absolutely spectacular.

Mary Ann Steinhauer  02:43

It's an amazing event.

Ray Loewe02:45

And then to find out Marianne here actually pilots one of these and so let me ask you a couple of questions before we get into hot air ballooning. Hot air ballooning is only part of Marianne, Marianne actually has a master's degree in elementary education. She has a master's degree in library science and she has been an author of a number of publications. And the other thing that I found interesting in your background is you actually took graduate studies in folklore and folklife from the University of Pennsylvania. So, why did you do that? And what where did that take you?

Mary Ann Steinhauer  03:25

Well, I've always been fascinated with folklore, folk life, and also storytelling, and what a magnificent place, you know, to be studying that, you know, it was just absolutely amazing. So it was a graduate program for older people because I had already done my other education work. And I just lapped it up. I mean, I just got really, really excited. You know, I'm interested in what people consider really important to continue their traditions and their culture, and it's all through performance and storytelling, the oral tradition, and all of that, that is really, you know, I'm a storyteller. 

Ray Loewe04:17

All right, now we're going to have to do another podcast some other day just on that because I think that whole area is phenomenal and, you know, everybody has a story. 

Mary Ann Steinhauer  04:28

I believe you're right.

Ray Loewe04:29

Everybody has a story. And the secret is to get it out there. And you know, you're never going to get the story if you don't talk to people. And ever since I started talking to Marianne about what she loves and what she's passionate about, it just makes me have more fun when I go down there. So thank you for that. And let's start with a really important question. So, why in the heck did you ever get interested in hot air ballooning?

Mary Ann Steinhauer  04:59

Wow. The first seeds were planted back when I was teaching at the lab school at Millersville University. And I was with the children out on the playground. And low and behold, here through the sky, we see this beautiful, hot air balloon. And not only did we see it flying, we noticed that it was coming toward us. And it ended up landing in the playground, at the playground. And I, of course, I had all the children were like all excited. And then I had to tell them, you know, you got to really be careful about this, but I was beside myself, I was more excited than they were. And it turns out that, you know, we managed to get safely around the balloon. And what happened was the pilot was stopping to get refueled. Because typically, and I, later on, found this out, that you can fly just so long before you have to stop and get more fuel. And so they were waiting for their chase vehicle to come with more fuel. Okay, so we didn't know this. But I was just I knew right then in there that I really wanted to go up in a hot air balloon. And I said to the children, I'm going to do this someday. And this was back in the 70s.

Ray Loewe06:12

Okay, and, you know, you talk about dancing with the wind. And that's how you feel when you're in the balloon, isn't it?

Mary Ann Steinhauer  06:18

Oh, absolutely. You know, people always ask, like, how do you steer the balloon? Well, really, you are dancing with the wind. And sometimes you, you know, you'll release it. First of all, you have to check the weather. But then you release this helium balloon to see which way the winds go. But then once you're up there, you know, you can take a turn, just because the wind says this is where you're going to go. And I know with the British people, they usually have a can of shaving cream. And when they're in the basket, and they're up aloft, they do a doppel of shaving cream to see which way it goes, then they can tell which way the lower winds are. Now you don't know about the upper winds. But you know, you can start to climb, and you sort of park there and you see where that takes you. Does it take you right? Does it take you left? And, I never had a can of shaving cream, I just spit out of the side and that worked.

Ray Loewe07:18

So that's kind of how you control the balloon, you control it by going up or down and finding the wind that's going kind of in their direction you want. 

Mary Ann Steinhauer  07:26

Exactly.

Ray Loewe07:27

So that's why in Albuquerque at the balloon festival, they have these two levels where the balloons go one way at one level and they go up to another level and they go the other way. Is that what goes on? 

Mary Ann Steinhauer  07:37

Absolutely. That's what happened. They are dancing with the wind.

Ray Loewe07:41

Incredible. Okay, so how does one get a license to pilot one of these things? 

Mary Ann Steinhauer  07:48

Well, first of all, I spent a lot of time as a crew chief. Because my husband at hell she, at the time was very, very interested. He wanted me to take fixed-wing flying lessons. And you know, after the fourth lesson, when I had to stall the plane in the sky, I said, this is not for me. I think I would prefer being in the basket surrounded by this wicker. And I would rather be in a balloon. So, what does it take? Well, I did a lot of crewing and of course, you know what that's like, you have to chase the balloon. And you have to make sure that you handle landowner relations when you're on the ground. And also, you have two-way radios and you let them know, you know that there's there's a field that of course, they can see where the field is. But you sometimes have to clear permission. So I did a lot of crewing. And I would get thrown in the basket every now and then in fly. And I thought you know, I can do this. And before I knew it, I had like 100 hours in the balloon. And I took okay what do you need. And it's not just having the hours you have to be pilot in command, you have to know how the workings of the balloon are. But you also have to take a written test. You have to take an oral test. And just like a driving test, you have to take a test with an examiner, a federal examiner.

Ray Loewe09:14

Oh my. So, do you have to parallel park too?

Mary Ann Steinhauer  09:17

No, but I'll tell you what, you know, one of the things that's an absolute no, you don't want to land where there are horses, and you don't want to land in the middle of cows or any kind of livestock. The Federal examiner that I had for my test, you know, my driving test, and no, I didn't parallel park, but he said why don't you just land here? And I said I'm not landing there. There are cows there. You know, I'm not doing that. And while you know he's talking to me about where I should be landing he was testing me out to see if I could take off and land and do all that. He was messing around with the tanks he was turning the valves of the tank saw. And I looked at him and I slapped his hand and I said, stay away from that! You know, because he was gonna knock my pilot light. But he wanted to see if I was attentive to it. You know, if you have passengers, a lot of times they're touching all kinds of things. And that's a no no. 

Ray Loewe10:20

So what do you do when you land someplace like in a farmer's field? That's where you become a diplomat, right? 

Mary Ann Steinhauer  10:26

Yes, absolutely. And you hope that your chase crew has already, you know, set up, of course, I did that a lot. But if I was the pilot, you know, you wanted to make sure that it was okay. And most of the time, people love to have you there. And occasionally, we'd stop at an Amish farm. And the Amish men would hop in the basket and we'd give them the second leg of the flight. You know, we'd let them fly and they could see their land. They could see their handiwork in a way that they never could before.

Ray Loewe11:00

You know, you are a storyteller, aren't you? Okay, and what a great story. And you know, when I went hot air ballooning, the one time I was up in a balloon, we had a bottle of champagne with us. And, a basket with foods so that if we landed in a farmer's field, you know, we could we could have like a picnic and celebrate?

Mary Ann Steinhauer  11:00

Yes, well, yes. I know, when flying in France, they really love to have the wine and the champagne. But you have to understand that if you're the pilot, there is no alcohol, from you know, bottle to throttle. And you only have that once you land. And you have the food and the party and I love that part of it, too.

Ray Loewe11:44

Okay, so before we get into some of your adventures, I know our listeners are gonna want to know what one of these things cost.

Mary Ann Steinhauer  11:54

Well, when people asked me that, I mean, there's more than just the balloon, there's a basket and the tanks. And then there, the beautiful, artistic piece. It's called the envelope. And it's made of ripstop, nylon and some fireproof, you know, portions of it, where the flame goes. To answer your question, I always say it is like the cost of a car, like a luxury, nice luxury car. And the thing is, once you have the basket and your tanks and everything, you can fly with the envelope for so long. After how many hours you get on it, and over time, because it's heated up a lot, and it's put down and it goes through a lot, it gets porous. And so you know, a new balloon is really tight, like a new car. And you could always just change, you know, just get a new envelope, design a new envelope, and that's another cost, but you also need a chase vehicle. You need a fan to put cold air in. You need radios. You need little helium balloons. There's all kinds of equipment that you need before you even go out to a launch field and start the inflation.

Ray Loewe13:18

All right. So tell me you had to design your balloon at least once in your life. So when you design your first balloon, how do you design it? Would did you put on it?

Mary Ann Steinhauer  13:28

Well, first of all, we started out with a used balloon that had quite a few hours on it. And we knew that it was going to be good for us to learn how to fly and to have our instruction. But when it came time to actually designing our envelope, my husband really felt that we were flying in Lancaster County. So he designed a map, an outline of Lancaster County, and it was a yellow map and he had a red rose in the center so that people knew we were from Lancaster County. And then on my side of the balloon, I asked that they do the flying horse, Pegasus, which is a beautiful white flying horse. And whenever I'd see her coming up over the hill, you know, people would see this beautiful Pegasus, and Pegasus is definitely a symbol of inspiration and creativity. So it held a lot of meaning for me.

Ray Loewe14:23

Alright, I think you're more than a storyteller. I think you're a poet too. Okay, I mean, it's great. I can just see having so much fun with this. You know, first of all, being aloft is quiet, you know, except when that darn blast of propane takes off. And you just get these magnificent views. You know if people that are listening to this have never been up in a hot air balloon, you have to do this at some prime in your life. And you also have to be in the chase car because that's an adventure too. 

Mary Ann Steinhauer  14:55

Oh, it is, it's a lot of fun. 

Ray Loewe14:56

So, let's talk about some of the great places you've been, and let me give a list that you gave me, and then you pick the one that you want to talk about first. Okay? 

Mary Ann Steinhauer  15:05

Okay.

Ray Loewe15:05

So you were in Austria flying in a balloon, you were in Costa Rica, you were in Spain, you were in Japan, you were in Leningrad. And then who knows where else in the United States you've been. All right. So pick one, and tell us what the appeal was, what the adventure was, and be a storyteller and a poet.

Mary Ann Steinhauer  15:25

Well, let me tell you. Oh, my goodness, alright, you mentioned Albuquerque, and I'm going to tell you about a time we were flying in Austria, and we didn't have our balloon, a lot of times, there's a network of balloons, ballooners, balloonists around the world. And so if we would be invited to fly in a particular country, there would be balloonists who would lend us their balloons, and then they would come to the United States, and we would reciprocate. So, it was a very, very nice thing. So we were in Austria, we were flying this particular balloon. And we were going over cows and churches and whatnot. And so I thought, well, let's see if we can just land here in this churchyard. And we came through and landed there and all of a sudden, I hear this brass music from a brass band. And I'm thinking, where is that coming from? I mean, this is a church, and out comes this band of Austrian brass trumpet, trombone, and tuba players, and they are serenading this balloon. You know, they were so excited. And they said to us, oh, you know what, we want to come to Albuquerque, you know, and I'm thinking yeah, well, we were rarely at Albuquerque, you know? And I thought, yeah, right, I will never see them. And so later on that year, we were in Albuquerque, and I was there early early morning. We get started at four o'clock in the morning, and we're out in the field. And of course, there's all these stands that are selling breakfast burritos and whatnot. And there are tents set up. And all of a sudden, I hear brass music coming from one of the tents. And lo and behold, it was the brass band that greeted us when we were in Austria. And they recognize me and I recognize them. And it was like a grand reunion. 

Ray Loewe17:22

Incredible.

Mary Ann Steinhauer  17:23

They were they said they were going to come to Albuquerque. And they did. They did.

Ray Loewe17:27

Alright, we're getting near the end of our time, but pick one of the other places that you've been, and tell some other story.

Mary Ann Steinhauer  17:35

Well, I'll tell you, I should talk about Costa Rica, because we were friends with the Minister of Trade of Costa Rica, and his job was to bring new businesses into Costa Rica. And this was a number of years ago, he contacted the ballooning company that made the balloons in the United States and  his name was drawn Luis Escalante and he was definitely interested in getting more flights from Florida to Costa Rica from American Airlines. So he thought it might be a great idea to have a balloon that had the American Airlines logo on it, it would be great publicity. Well, my husband and I and our girls went to Costa Rica on two occasions. And we were in charge of teaching Don Luis how to fly this balloon. It was designed and it had the American Airlines on it. But I mean, what we saw, while we were there, the people were so friendly. There was flowers and beautiful plants everywhere and macaws flying in pairs. So I would see things like that, you know, and I thought, oh my gosh, this is really fantastic. Anyway, we came to the point where the training had gone so far, and it's time to do a solo flight. So Don Luis had to do a solo flight. Now you have to understand, his father-in-law also had a sugar plantation. And so we were flying, and actually over the plantation. And I, you know, I said, Don Luis, you can do this solo flight. This is really good. You know, I was on the chase vehicle. Ed was there, you know, so there we were, and he's getting ready to come in for his landing, actually on the plantation. And I thought this was really wonderful. And then all of a sudden, I hear the clanging of the tanks in the back of the pickup truck. And I looked at the power lines, and I saw that they were undulating. And so finally he landed, and the earth started to move. We were having an earthquake. I couldn't believe it. I mean, it actually happened at that moment when he was landing. And I said, Don Luis, that was a hell of a landing! I could not believe it!

Ray Loewe20:03

So welcome to Adventures in Costa Rica. And, you know, we're gonna do another one of these if I can get your attention later because the stories can go on I'm sure. Okay, but before we sign off, your daughter is also a hot air balloonist, isn't she?

Mary Ann Steinhauer  20:19

Oh, yes, my older daughter, the younger daughter never really cared for it. But the older daughter definitely took to it. And she's highly competitive. She actually competes all around the world right now. I mean, she lives in Colorado but she was in Lithuania, she's qualifying for the Women's Championship. And I think it's going to happen in Australia. 

Ray Loewe20:45

You know, when you compete, what does that entail? Because you don't have control over where the balloon is going.

Mary Ann Steinhauer  20:51

No, but you do map your course. And there's always a big x at one of the fields. And the whole idea is to be able to fly over that X in your balloon and toss a beanbag that has your balloon number on it. And the closest you get to the center of the X, you're definitely you know, the winner or you get the ranking. But there's also a hare and hound. So  there's a hare balloon that leads the way and whoever can fly closest, and land in the same place that the hare does, the Hound is the winner. I mean, so there's those kinds of competitions. 

Ray Loewe21:40

So who knew, right? So  again, you know, we're at the end of our time and Maryanne Steinhauer has been our guest, and she's opened up this whole world of hot air ballooning to us and she's available, stop at the North desk some time and if you're lucky, you'll see her. 

Mary Ann Steinhauer  21:59

I do want to read one thing as we close. 

Ray Loewe22:02

Okay, go ahead.

Mary Ann Steinhauer  22:03

That is called the balloonist prayer. The winds have welcomed you softly. The sun has blessed you with her warm hands. You have flown so well, and so high that God has joined you in your laughter and then gently set you back into the loving arms of Mother Earth.

Ray Loewe22:24

There's nothing more to say. So Luke, sign us off, please. Thanks for listening. And be sure to listen again next week. And every week when we'll have another exciting guest. I hope you enjoyed this. This is something we're going to do from time to time, and I think you can certainly see why our guest is one of the luckiest people in the world. So listen again next week and, Luke, sign us off.

Outro  22:58

Thank you for listening to Changing the Rules. Join us next week for more conversation, our special guest and to hear more from the luckiest guy in the world.

Guest:  Sky Bergman

Sky's Website:  www.lives-well-lived.com

Transcription:

Intro  00:03

Welcome to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best lives, and advice on how you can achieve that too.  Join us with your lively host Ray Lowe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Ray Loewe00:18

Good morning, everybody. My name is Ray Loewe, I am the luckiest guy in the world. And I'm sitting here with Luke Cagno. Luke is our engineer here and in our brand new studios in Lancaster, actually in Willow Street, Pennsylvania. And we have an incredible guest today, she has been with us before, and we're gonna get an exciting update. But before we get there, I want to remind everybody that what we try and do on this podcast is to interview one of the luckiest people in the world every week. And the luckiest people in the world are people who take control of their lives so that they can live them under their own terms. And when they do that, they're happier, they're more fulfilled, and they just seem to just never want to retire. They just keep going on and on and on and on. And the name on our show, changing the rules as a component of that. Because all through our lives, we're saddled with rules that everybody else gives us, our schools, our parents, our teachers, our jobs. And,  it was Steve Jobs I think that said, you know, when you're living your life under your own under somebody else's rules, you're not living your own life. And you find that the our luckiest people in the world changed the rules to make it work for them. So this morning, I want to welcome Skye Bergman. Now Sky, used to be a professor of film and videography. She's going to give us an update on what happened there. She came out with an exciting film that was a complete success. And she's going to tell us a little bit about that. And then she's going to tell us about a new project that she's working on that we're all going to get excited about. So Sky, say hello, and give us a little background about what's going on in your life.

Sky Bergman02:10

Hey Ray, thanks so much for having me. And it's really nice to be back on the show again. Great. So yeah, you know, I'm was lucky enough by as you mentioned, I was a professor of photography and video at Cal Poly State University. I taught photography for 30 years, and this past December, I decided that I was going to retire from that job not retire altogether, but retire from that job. So it would open up a space for me to have time to do all these passion projects that I'm working on. One of which, of course, was a live life film, which started with my grandmother, who at the age of 100, was still working out at the gym. And I was looking at approaching 50 and trying to figure out who my positive role models were going to be. And of course, there was my grandmother right in front of me. And I spent four years interviewing 40 people that were 75 and older with a collective life experience of 3000 years and put a film together called lives well lived. And it has as you mentioned and very successful, we had a great theatrical run with it, it's airing on PBS now. So if you're a PBS Passport member, you can find it or you can actually on Amazon and iTunes and on shop PBS it blows my mind. Because here's this little film that started with a love of my grandmother and has done super well. And you know, really, since then, I think one of the things that I really have wanted to do and become an advocate for our intergenerational connections and projects. And for me, I was lucky that I had my grandparents that were around me, I lived with my grandparents for a while even my great-grandmother was alive for many years until I was 19. I had her in my life and I kind of took for granted that I had this wonderful intergenerational connections and ties. And many, many people don't have that. And so that's kind of become my passion is to connect generations through share stories. And I'm really pleased that PBS Learning Media now has a whole learning module up for K through 12 teachers that they can plug and play into their classrooms using some of the snippets of the lives well lived film, and a whole you know, curriculum of how they can Cal students can connect with older adults. And the more that we do that the better the world is going to be. So I'm really pleased with where things have gone.

Ray Loewe04:33

So So let's back up a little bit because I think it started with this film  that's what allowed your passions to escape into the world. Okay. I know from the last interview that we did with you, I got one really strong thing from you. And that let me quote you on this and maybe it's not an exact quote, so you can correct me but basically, you said most of us like to believe that the human race has come a long way over the past century. And in one respect it has, but in another respect, what we've missed over the last 100 years is we're not talking to our older generation and capturing their wisdom and their values. And you know, when you did your film, and by the way, if you haven't seen Sky's, film, you need to do this. It's not a real long film, and you just not need to see it, because it will lay out for you. Not just through Sky and her vision through the camera, but through the lives of other people that believe in living life. And we need to start to capture this wisdom from people. So I remember, well, let's go back and talk about the film because it was successful. It was aired on PBS, it's still there. It's in all of these other places. But one of the other things that happened if I remember right, is you got hit with this, the film was released in the middle of COVID.

Sky Bergman06:04

Yeah, it well, we had our theatrical release before COVID. But then we were doing our community and educational screenings right in the midst of COVID. And what was wonderful was that we were ready to do virtual screenings and have virtual q&a. And in fact, I think that COVID, because of the issues that were facing older adults, and because of you know, that was certainly in the news that COVID was really affecting older adults, that's primarily really the biggest, I guess, group that were being affected in was the older adults. And so it became an issue that was to the forefront, like, let's talk about the stories of these older adults and the people that were losing and what that means and that generation. And so really, you know, the world became very flat during COVID. And people were very willing to do and meet through Zoom through Google meets and online and a way that didn't happen as much before. So I was busier than ever. And then I had been working already doing intergenerational projects, with universities and high schools and older adults, either senior centers or assisted living facilities, and was lucky enough that I had a colleague at Cal Poly, who Sarah Bartlett, who was teaches the psychology of aging class. And we've been doing this projects together for over a year at that point. And we pivoted very quickly to do it online. So we work with Senior Planet, which is part of AARP, and made it happen made these connections happen, even though everybody was shut-in. And it was probably more important than ever, because, of course, the two groups that were the loneliest during the pandemic, were older adults and students. And so we brought those two groups together. And what a gift that was for both groups of people.

Ray Loewe07:54

Yeah. And it allows you to be international all of a sudden without getting on airplanes, right?

Sky Bergman08:00

Yeah. Which is pretty nice, especially these days of their travel.

Ray Loewe08:03

Yeah. Now, if we go back to our last discussion a little bit, one of the highlights that I picked up again, you were talking about one of your students, James, and I think I'd like you to talk about it again if you're willing to do that because it has to do with how do you talk to our elders? So

Sky Bergman08:24

Sure, yeah, well, so when I would, when I would interview the people for the film because I'm a teacher, I would always try and take a student with me more just to kind of learn from that experience. And I had this one, student assistant, his name was James, really sweet young man. And we interviewed two people in one day. One of them was Lucky Willie, for those of you that haven't seen the film Lucky Willie is vivacious. He makes he was a practicing pediatrician for 50 years in this town, and then made Mr. Ellis for his daughter's deli fresh rolls every morning, and really amazing guy. So we went over there and interviewed him. And,  of course, he just is so funny. And we were laughing. We had a great time. And James and I went out to lunch afterwards. And James said to me, in all seriousness, wow, I didn't realize that older people could talk so much, you know, just kind of struck me because like I said, I grew up with my grandparents. And of course, they can talk a lot if you listen. And, and I said to him, Well, James, Don't you have anyone in your life? There's an older adult, and he said, Well, I have a grandfather, but you know, we really, he doesn't live near me. And we don't see him that much. And we don't really talk and it just so happened that it was right before Thanksgiving, and he was getting ready to go home. And of course, the whole family was gathering including his grandfather. And I said to him, James, your homework assignment because he was still my student at the time. Your homework assignment is I want you to take these questions that we just asked like Lucky Willie, and I want you to ask those questions of your grandfather. And it was so wonderful, he came back from that trip, grinning from ear to ear. And it was, you know, he didn't know how to open up that dialogue with his grandfather same thing his grandfather didn't really know how to how to communicate. But having a framework of those questions, it was so wonderful. And it allowed them both to open up and have a relationship that they really never had before. And so that's one of the things that we do when we do these intergenerational projects is we give the students and the older adults a framework of questions to start from, and then where they go off from there, and what tangents they go on is fine. But I think, in doing that, what you realize is that, you know, all the students will say, and the older adults are, they have far more in common than their differences, and the only differences really their age. And I think that like with any stereotype or any ism, you know, you can have that stereotype or that ism until you meet somebody from that other group. And then once you have a friend in that other group, those stereotypes and those isms start disappearing. So I feel like in many ways, what we're doing with these intergenerational projects is really combating the stereotypes of ageism, one story in one connection at a time, and ageism works in both directions. There are older people that have stereotypes about young people and vice versa. So it's really lovely to break down those barriers and to bring those two groups together,

Ray Loewe11:18

ya know, do you have those questions on a website or something like that, or some of them so that people can get started and having conversations?

Sky Bergman11:26

Absolutely, there is a place on our website that's called shared stories. And I should say, our website is lives-well-lived.com. Or if you just Google lives well lived, it'll be the first thing that comes up. And there's a place where people could actually share their stories. And the questions are there because I realized I had to stop interviewing people at 40. Or I would never have gotten the film done, how I wanted to be inclusive, and continue collecting people's stories. There's also if you go to the take action part of the website, there's some information about the intergenerational work that we're doing and a discussion guide for the film. And in that discussion guide, there are the questions as well.

Ray Loewe12:01

Okay, so let's talk about this new project because this is where your passions are going now, are you going to make another film first?

Sky Bergman12:10

Well, I do have an idea for another film because I love the intergenerational connection. So I did make a short film, which I'm trying to make into a half an hour film, hopefully for PBS as well, which is called mochi suki. And it's the tradition of that Japanese have of making mochi to bring in the new year. And I love there's a family here actually Suzie, who's in my film, her family gets together every year. And they make Mochi. And it's like 150 people, all different generations. And I love that idea of tradition, stories, and food all coming together those things are so wonderful. So that might be the beginning of a new series where I talk about different foods and different cultures and how they come generations come together through that. But of course, I'm still working on, you know, doing these intergenerational connections through the Lives Well Lived film. And now I'm writing a book, which will kind of be a companion guide to the film, and also talk about how you can bring these intergenerational projects to your Community Corporation educational institution. So that's, that's keeping me pretty busy these days.

Ray Loewe13:15

Okay, so let's take a minute and kind of define for us what this intergenerational project is. I mean, that's, that's a big word. And I have no idea what the context is. So kind of, you know, set set a stage, what are we talking about?

Sky Bergman13:30

Sure. I mean, there's lots of different intergenerational connections and projects that happen. The one that we've been doing with the film, is that we show the film to a group of older adults into students so that they can view it together. And then we have kind of a discussion afterward with that group of students and older adults. And it sets a framework of, first of all, the older adults think, wow, this could be interesting to tell my story. And the students think, wow, this can be interesting to find out about the story of these older adults. Because in the film, you see people that are at a younger age, and you see them throughout their lifetime in their history. And I think that that really helps to put it into some context. And then the students and older adults are given the questions that I used, I had 20 questions that I asked everyone in the film as a starting point. So they're given those questions to use to get to know each other, they meet three or four times during a period of either a quarter or semester, depending on the educational institution. And then at the end, there's a big wrap party where the students talk about what they learned the older adults too, do as well, but the students really have to put together kind of like a memoir and something to give to the older adults. So it's a big wrap party at the end. And it's just been such a wonderful project. I mean, I would say that there are a number of students and older adults that stay in touch after this project. In fact, I just heard from one of the older adults that a student who had just graduated reached out to her and said, wow, you have no idea just graduated from college. You have no idea what an impact this project had on me and my career and let's stay in touch. You know, that's so heartwarming to know. Because we as teachers don't always hear that so it's nice when we find out that these things keep happening and that those relationships last beyond just the confines of a classroom or the time that's satisfied.

Ray Loewe15:10

Yeah. Now you had the opportunity to interview your own parents or your father as part of the film, too. And,  why don't you tell us what you want to tell us about that?

Sky Bergman15:20

Yeah, well, so my dad recently passed away, as Ray knows that he had a massive stroke. And he was a practicing geriatric physician, right up until the day before he had a stroke. He was 79, almost 80. And, you know, it was great to interview him, because one of the questions that I asked everyone is, what do you think about your own mortality? And I think, as a daughter, it would have been a little bit, I would have felt a little awkward asking that question. I think in this society, we really don't talk about death or dying or mortality. But in the context of being an interviewer, it felt natural to just ask that question. And, honestly, my dad, and I had one of the best conversations that we've ever had. And when he did have a stroke, and things were happening, rapid-fire, I knew what his wishes were, and it made it much easier to go through that moment in time. And I think what a gift it was to both of us, that we have that conversation, and that his wishes were very clear. And, you know, I knew what was happening was okay, and it just, I think, the more that we can have these conversations, and the more that we can ask people questions, the better. And one of the questions I asked everyone was, do you have any regrets? And the biggest regret that people had, was not asking somebody a question who had passed away. So don't wait, because we think we have all this time and it can be gone in a fleeting second, I feel so grateful that I have that interview with my dad. It's just, you know, precious.

Ray Loewe16:42

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Because I know it's an emotional issue. But I think it's so important because we don't talk to our parents especially. And, I regret, I never knew my grandparents, I never talked to them, I, I didn't even spend the time with my own parents to really find out who they are. And they're not here anymore. And I can't do that. So I think the importance of the work that you're doing about talking to other people is just so so important, and especially with your family. So again, thanks for sharing, any other comments that you want to make about the work that you're doing and where you're going, and what you hope to achieve?

Sky Bergman17:22

Well, I would just say to everyone out there, most importantly, everyone has a story to tell if we take the time to listen, we are so often on our devices, and not paying attention to each other and just put the devices away and really listen and talk to your loved ones. Talk to people, you know, reach out to people of different generations, make those things happen. I think that that's so vitally important. And if anyone is interested in reaching out to me and finding out how they can do a screening, or set up an intergenerational project, my email is [email protected], or you can find me on the website. Again, that's lives-well-lived.com. And, you know, very accessible and very willing to help and, and look for my book, which I hope will come out in May of next year. Maybe you'll have me back on when the book comes out. We'll do something made for Older Americans Month in 2023.

Ray Loewe18:17

And thanks so much for sharing because this is so important. And one of the things we don't do is we don't talk to people. So thanks again for sharing. Thanks again for being with us. And Sky, thanks again for being one of the luckiest people in the world. Because you certainly are following your passion. And you certainly have found a way to make it happen, haven't you?

Sky Bergman18:38

Absolutely. And I would say to anyone, you know, follow your passion. And also when you're working on a project and more personal the word universal, who would have thought that something that started out of a love of my grandmother would end up on PBS. And so you know, don't let those voices in your mind when you're working on a project. Go for it. Just go for it. You never know where it will take you

Ray Loewe19:00

and thanks so much for being with us. And we'll see you again when the book comes out guaranteed. All right, have a great day. And thanks everybody for being with us and Luke signing off.

Outro  19:12

Thank you for listening to changing the rules. Join us next week for more conversation, our special guest, and to hear more from the luckiest guy in the world. 

Transcription:

Intro  00:03

Welcome to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best lives, and advice on how you can achieve that too.  Join us with your lively host, Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Patrick Reynolds  00:11

Good morning, everybody, and welcome to changing the rules and we have an incredible guest with us today. But before we let him on the air, I want to give you a little background, you know, we try every week to interview one of the luckiest people in the world. And the luckiest people in the world are those people who don't let everybody else control their lives, they figure out what they want, and they somehow figure a way to go do it. And you're gonna see how our guest meets those specs today. And the other thing I wanted to comment on is the name of our show is changing the rules. And the reason for that is all through our lives were given rules by everybody. Okay? When you start, your parents give you a set of rules. And then the schools give you a set of rules, and the Church gives you a set of rules and your boss gives you a set of rules. Before you know it, you got so many rules. And What rules do is two things. They tell you have to do this, or you can't do this. So the people who are independent and who become the luckiest people in the world have found a great way of changing the rules so that they get the freedom to be themselves. And today we have with us a young man, Patrick Reynolds, who is I think the best way to describe him is a historical cartoonist. So Patrick, say hello. And you can tell me that I was wrong and how he described you.  Oh, hello, Ray.  That's kind of accurate. I have a cartoonist that does historical subjects of places or people that you've never heard of. Or if you're familiar with them, something about them that's never known.

Ray Loewe02:01

So you found the interesting way of doing things. So you weren't always free to be you though. Warrior. Correct. So let's go back a little bit. When you are early in your life, you realize you had this flair for cartooning? Is that correct? Right. When I was a kid, and you developed it and when you had a chance to go to college or trade school, or whatever it is. You went to learn how to be a better cartoonist first.

Patrick Reynolds  02:27

I wanted to be an artist. And my hobby was artwork, okay. It would be great if I can make a living out of my hobby. So I made that decision to be an artist and I had a mentor, if you will in my hometown, who was a very accomplished artist, and I asked what's the best art school in our country? I can go to what I'm missing a beat. He says Pratt Institute, little known to me that is in the middle of Brooklyn, New York right next to the Bet Sty neighborhood. Okay. But you got through that you live through the experience. Okay, so, so early in your life. Okay. When you came out of Pratt, what did you do? I became an art director for an advertising agency in Scranton. It was sort of like getting my master's degree if you will. There's the whole thing. We can't hire you unless you have experience. So how can I get experienced? So this was it. So I stayed there a year and then I became an art director at an ad agency in Harrisburg. And I worked there for a year and then finally, the draft board caught up with me and says, you're not getting any more deferments. You have two months to make a decision. Otherwise, we will draft you. So I went in the army.

Ray Loewe03:49

Okay. And interesting. You were in intelligence in the army. Correct, Right. And it tells you something about cartoonists, doesn't it? And, you did some really interesting things. You did some aerial surveillance, and, you know, make a long story short, I understand you want up to the Bronze Star. I understand you left the Army Reserves as a retired Lieutenant Colonel. Right. Right. So this was a big part of your life. And I know you were telling me some stories when we were kind of prepping for this about how you actually wound up doing some drawing while you were doing this stuff. And, putting Mickey Mouse's on the flags just to keep yourself entertained and stuff like that. But rather than spending time there, I want to go on because I think the rest of your career was just absolutely phenomenal. I don't want to spend the time there. So  you left the army. Right, and what did you do?

Patrick Reynolds  04:45

I got a job as an artist up in Schenectady for General Electric. I always want to say generous electric But General Electric. And that got me back on my feet in the art business. This. And from there, I became advertising manager of the host farm here in Lancaster. That's how I ended up in Lancaster.

Ray Loewe05:08

Okay, now I understand host farm is significant because you learned two things there that took over your career, right?

Patrick Reynolds  05:16

Oh, well really one thing from the my boss, I still have to make up the rate brochures to tell what it will cost to stay there for at a particular holiday. And I would add matchups and what's going to cost with the type of room. And then I would get it printed out and bring it to my boss, the manager. And he'd look at it. And he'd say, I want price to visit idiot-proof. idiot-proof, what are you talking about? He says, I want it so that any idiot can look at this and not have any questions, they'll understand everything you're trying to tell them. And that became one of the keys to my writing style. Okay. And there was something else that came out of there a while ago, I'm not going to match it up correctly. But it had to do something you didn't know, oh, I worked for the after I worked for host farm, I got a job as the public relations Information Specialist for the state tourism bureau where we promoted tours around the country. And I would look at what other states are doing. And I figured I want to do what they're not doing. And 1973-74 Halloween time. And I came up with a concept of, of a tour of haunted places in the state of haunted places you can visit. And the story got picked up by the New York Daily News front page of their travel section. And a couple of months later, I met the editor of the Travel section. I said what did I do, right? And he says, you told me something I didn't know. So when I came up with my cartoons, I decided to do with a one on Pennsylvania. And it would consist of stories from history that people never heard of, or even thought about.

Ray Loewe07:17

So here we are, we're doing something we didn't know. And the cartoons gave you a medium to make them idiot-proof. Right? Well, welcome to your own world, Patrick. So this led you on a career so so go back. And there was a point in time when you took off on your own because I think you got fed up with the bureaucracy. And you had this creativity that you wanted to run but I think you told me a story of that dealt with the bicentennial. And taking off to Boston and seeing something about Yankee something or other in the newspaper. So amplifying in that.

Patrick Reynolds  07:57

I was a member of the Society of America travel writers. And we had our convention in 1975 in several cities, and one of the first one was Boston. And on Sunday morning, right after the that previous Saturday night, I was in my hotel room and I watched this TV show you just came on Saturday Night Live 1975. Anyway, the next morning, I pick up the Boston Globe, and they had a cartoon, it was on their front page called Yankee almanac. It was a whimsical treatment of Massachusetts Bay Colony history for back in the 1600.  And I said that is the coolest idea ever seen, I could do something like that for Pennsylvania. And at the time I was bucking for promotion to be our director of my bureau. At the time, I had delusions of grandeur. And so I did three of them. And one of them had to do with the July 3 and three significant events and PA and places that you would visit such as Gettysburg. Another one was on the mammoth fossil found in Pennsylvania, which is on display at the State Museum, on and on. So I did these three gave them to the higher up and didn't hear from them. And then what they did was they hired a guy from Virginia for the job that I wanted. And I thought I'm not long for this job. So he came to me and said, the powers that be were impressed by your comic strips, how long is it going to take to do one of them things? I said to myself, I'm not going to give this to the state. I'm keeping this for me. So I said four days a week, you know, wow, that's a lot to do. I said, Look, you're the boss. I'm going to do what you direct me to do and what you want done, I said but I'd like to do this on my own time. Therefore, I'd like you to get a letter of understanding from the powers that be that I can do this on my own time and sell it to the newspapers. And next day come back with a letter of understanding. And that's how it started. For there, I marketed to all the newspapers, I can in the state, I ended up getting picked up by 20 newspapers. But none of them were in Philadelphia or Pittsburgh, one of these papers now became a Pittsburgh paper. But that was long, many long years later. So I did that for a couple of years. But still, I got I had time. Oh, after that cartoon started, it took me two years to leave my state job, because I came out with books on it. And the books sold fantastically, which I printed myself, by the way. And so after two years, I forgot I could make this on my own. So now you emerge as one of the luckiest people in the world. Right? Exactly. Because now you're doing your passion. Right. And there are two passions that I detect. One is cartooning. And the other is these historic events that you pick up. And you can make come to life for people, right? As if you're there. And you could do this and figure out how to get paid for it without putting up with the bureaucracy of the state of Pennsylvania, or somewhere. Exactly. Great. All right. So now we know why you were dealing with the luckiest people in the world. So over the years, what are some of the best topics that you uncovered? You mentioned the haunted houses, but what are some of the other ones that you found fascinating that you were able to turn into comics so that everybody could understand they were idiot-proof? And we tell people something new? Right, right. Well, sometimes I try to tie them in with a current event. For example, January 6, last year, the raid on the US Capitol, I got an idea of a different type of a mass gathering in Washington, one of the first ones and that was the Bonus Army that took place in 1932. What the bonus was, was Congress passed an act in 1924. That gave a bonus to every soldier that served in World War One. And that bonus was going to be paid in 1946. So at the time, in the 1920s, people were making a living, it was a great time. And then the Depression hit. Now, half these veterans, several million of them are destitute, their farms are being repossessed by the banks. So Washington had to do something. We need that money now not 1946. So Wright Patman from Texas voted in favor of it, but no one went along with it. The House passed, the Senate wouldn't. So a couple of guys, one guy in particular in Oregon, decided to march on Washington. So how are they gonna get that had no money. So what they did was they hitchhiked or they hop on freight trains. And they got as far as and this made the news. So other veterans from the rest of the country said we're gonna do the same thing. So they started hitchhiking and train hopping, trying all converging on Washington, DC, eventually, 20,000 veterans showed up and waited for the pressured Congress to and they're very organized, by the way, since these are military. And we're gonna stay. The chief of police got them to stay in some of the abandoned buildings on Pennsylvania Avenue because PA Avenue was being rebuilt. So what it looks like today. So where do you find this stuff? I read a lot. Okay, read a whole lot. And by the way, I've been doing this long before the way hadn't Google and stuff like that. Okay, so give me another example. So that's something I didn't know. Okay. And I think I understand it. So give me something else. Well, I got I gotta tell you the kicker on the Bonus Army, okay. They Congress voted against it. And it was dead. So half the veterans left DC the other half stayed there. And most a lot of them settled in in camps, and Anacostia, which is across the Anacostia River, and, and several many 1000s were there and he built their own shacks. Some of them lived out of their own jalopy cars. And when they refused to leave, President Hoover gave the word to his Chief of Staff, General Douglas MacArthur to get rid of them, and General MacArthur along with his, Adjutant Major Dwight Eisenhower, when it's action, and they organize the two troops of squadrons of cavalry, and a one, two battalions of infantry to march down Pennsylvania Avenue and just kick everybody out. The infantry carried tear gas. The cavalry carried sabers. Commanding one of the squadrons was Captain George Patton. They eradicated everybody and he ended up burning all or setting fire to all the stuff at Anacostia. So it ended in a disaster. And when this hits the news, Franklin Roosevelt in his home in Hyde Park was the Democratic candidate for president that year. He just sat there told his aide, we don't have to campaign anymore. Wow, just lost it. Wow. So this is the core kind of story that you tried to tell in your publications. Is that right? Right, right. Okay. So, unfortunately, we're getting near the end of our time, and I want to hit something because you're kind of at the end of your publication experience. You told me you're going to retire. I don't believe that. But we'll assume that you're correct for the moment. What are you going to do and writing about your life and your history? And you I think you said that we're for events, you're gonna have to give us a short version here. But go ahead.  My editors asked me the question, are you gonna do a special goodbye, and I says, Look, I not only write history, but I've lived through force. I consider four significant events in American history. The first one, I was a senior at Pratt, I was given a freelance job to help this woman in her business. Her name was Melee Dufty, a renowned civil rights leader, who owned a booking company for burlesque acts in black burlesque theaters across the country. And she needed someone to work on her book, which is a page-by-page bio of each person, I had to do the lettering on it. So I can free her up so she can make phone calls all over the country to bus companies. And these bus companies were gonna meet at churches, black churches throughout the country, and carry people to Washington DC for the 1963 march on Washington. At one point, I asked her the dumbest question in my life. I said, Do you think you're gonna get many people to show up? She says you'll see. And that summer 1000s I think over a million people showed up to listen to Martin Luther King's I Have a Dream speech. Then during when I was in the Army active duty to participate in the Tet offensive of 1968. As a reservist in the army, I was activated to my company was activated that I commanded to take part in the rescue mission of from Agnes, the Agnes flood that day to Pennsylvania. And the last one was after the TMI accidents. I got a phone call from the public relations director of TMI. That's Three Mile Island Right Three Mile Island, the nuclear plants. And the what happened was the nuke the core of the one reactor virtually melted. And he called me and he says, are you comfortable with coming onto TMI? I said are you going to pay me? I'll be there. The job I had was to interpret engineer schematics, which I had experience in before, and making them into illustrations of these tools that they're going to use to break apart the core, and then pick up the pieces. I did maybe a dozen of these things. And they made a video out of it. And they never used the video because they've decided not to go into the core at all. So there's the fourth TMI accident.

Ray Loewe19:21

Okay, so amazing. Okay. And, you know, all I can say is welcome to the world of the luckiest people in the world. You're there, okay? We're going to have to do an encore to this because I just see the list of stories here. You can go on and on and on forever, probably. And I think the lesson that we hope people learn is, you know when you get frustrated in your career, you know, think find that key, find how you can use your passion and go off and become one of the luckiest people in the world. And, Patrick, thanks so much for being here. And Luke, sign us off and we'll see everybody next week. week

Outro  20:03

thank you for listening to changing the rules. Join us next week for more conversation, our special guest, and to hear more from the luckiest guy in the world.