Changing the Rules

Transcription:

Kris Parsons00:01

Welcome to Changing the Rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life and how you can figure out how to do it too! Join us with your lively host Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Ray Loewe00:16

Good morning, everybody, and welcome, again to our weekly podcast, changing the rules. And just to kind of remind everybody that changing the rules is about the luckiest people in the world. And every week, we try and showcase one or more of the luckiest people in the world and talk about how they got there and how they maintain their status as lucky people. For definition purposes, our luckiest people in the world are those people who take control of their own lives. They design them to their own specs, and they live them under their own terms. That fits with our theme here of changing the rules because changing the rules is one of the things that the luckiest people in the world are really good at. They've learned that everybody tries to give you rules; but when you're living by somebody else's rules, you're not living your own life. It doesn't mean that rules aren't important. We all have to have structure in our lives, but we have to kind of pick and choose those rules that are going to be our roles. When you do that, you're living your own life. So with all of that in the background, I'm going to reintroduce Bonnie Shea and Bonnie Shea is coming to us from the magnificent city of Chicago again this morning. Good morning, Bonnie, how are you today?

Bonnie Shay01:39

I'm doing great, Ray. Thanks. I'm glad to be here.

Ray Loewe01:43

I'm glad you're here too. So first of all, Bonnie is a longtime friend. We've known each other for a long time, too many years to count. She's been on a number of our podcasts. She has been one of the luckiest people in the world ever since I've known her. She has found a way to stay lucky. And that's one of the things that we're going to talk about today. We're also going to note that Bonnie is one of the contributors to our new book that's going to come out hopefully in the next 60 to 90 days. The new book is called Changing the Rules. We'll give you details as we go through our podcast between now and the time it goes live. But Bonnie is one of the contributors in many, many ways to this book. She's been a role model as one of the luckiest people in the world forever. She's got several quotes in there, too. Last but not least, we'll get back to what you really do. Bonnie is the owner, the inventor, the founder, the chief cook and bottle washer of Mariposa Photo Organizing, a photo organizing firm in Chicago. Bonnie has always been in the business of organizing something, probably her kids to start with. So Bonnie, start with that one, right? Say, hi, and let's talk a little bit. You get in and feel free to get your commercial end of what you do, when you do, and how you do it, whenever. But let's talk a little bit about this journey that you've taken to being one of the luckiest people in the world. When I first met you, we were in a coaching program together in Chicago, and you're in the organizing business, but not specifically the photo organizing business. So tell us a little bit about how you got there how you chose to do this. And I'm sure it's based on what you're good at and what you're passionate about. But talk to us.

Bonnie Shay03:55

Absolutely. So back in 2007, my former husband and I decided to go our separate ways. And since we were having his business as our line of income, I was the manager of the photography business. He's a photographer. I came up with something that I was naturally good at which was being an organizer. I knew that was a profession out there because I knew about Nikko and that residential organizers were a thing. So one of my first clients that I worked with, you go room by room when you're a residential organizer, you're decluttering and you're reorganizing reclassifying stuff. We stumbled on this client's closet filled to the brim with photos, VHS tapes, DVDs, albums, you name it. And she said, Bonnie, can you help me with this? And of course, I said yes. Because I just spent 25 years telling people stories with event photography, weddings, bar mitzvahs, and I had the organizing gene so, I could mix those two requirements together be organized, and know all about photos. And I said yes. So right from the beginning, I decided to add photos as a specialty of my organizing business. After 10 years of doing residential organizing and photos, more and more photos, as the years progressed, I decided I'm done being a residential organizer. And not to knock my clients but I'm basically tired of cleaning up messes. I don't like messes, even though I like to clean them up, I'm done physically cleaning up, room and room of mess. So I'm only doing photos right now. I'm only doing printed photos because to me, those are the ones that are at the highest risk of being lost or damaged. We don't have backups of our printed like we do have our digital. So that's how I got to where I am right now, Ray. And I want to sort of allude to the quote, in your book that you used of mine, "It was all about being self-sufficient." I was raised to be self-sufficient, and that I had to do everything myself. And I had to be good at everything I did. We have very high standards of family. Well, I realized as I changed and hit different forks in the road in my life, being self-sufficient is not where it's great to be. Because you're not good at everything, you're maybe sort of good at a lot of things. But I'd rather be really good at something solid that I love to do, that I'm good at and that I'm passionate about. And so to me, that's where I've changed along the way to make sure that I'm doing what I love to do.

Ray Loewe06:39

Okay, show your satellite here. And let's go back because I think that people who want to be the luckiest people in the world, think that you do it once. And it's done. You and I know better than that. That's the same thing. It's true with your photos, isn't it? Let's talk about maintenance. Let's talk about change. Let's talk about the fact that if you want to be one of the luckiest people in the world, you got to stay on top of that, the world around us is going to change and you have to change with it. Not only is the world around us going to change, but we're going to get better and better at what we think we want to do. So talk to me a little bit about this change concept and how you've dealt with it.

Bonnie Shay07:26

So great, I have really good ideas about that. So one is because I'm genetically wired to be organized. For most of my younger life, I wanted everything to go as planned. I wanted everything to stay in a place. I didn't want to move because that sort of bread chaos in my mind. I wanted everything very well organized and structured. So surprises always threw me for a loop. Because I didn't want surprises. I didn't want things to change. So that's that. And then Ray, you shared a book with me called 1000 places to visit before you die, which is a great book. My favorite part is the introduction where it said something to the effect: 'There's no such thing as a bad trip, just good stories to tell when you get back home. Well, to me, I have taken that concept, it was such a gift and I keep receiving that gift. I've applied that universally to my life. It's not just about trips, it's about life in general; you went to the grocery store and it was closed, you didn't plan on it being closed. So you have to come up with another way around. So you go to a different restaurant, different grocery store. So it's universal. I've used that in my business, that expect change, not different or deflected or say you don't like it. Because sometimes Plan B is better than plan A and you don't know until you get to that fork in the road. So I think that's my sort of new way of not so new anymore of approaching life and accepting change. But stay focused on what I want to be doing. And make choices along the way with all the new information that you get every time you wake up. 

Ray Loewe09:16

So before we get into your focus and your vision over here, let's go back to this change. You know, I think you're wired a little differently than I am. But I look at life as life without change would be really boring. You know, one of the things that you've had to do is you've had to change as different things derail you. Everybody does this. Most people have kids, guess what, kids get in your life and create changes, right? A Marriage, Divorce, gets in your way and creates changes. The world changes, we have wars unfortunately, we have diseases going on that change the way we have to structure life. So, talk to me for a minute about what happened with photo organizing, when all of a sudden you couldn't get out and get the photos.

Bonnie Shay10:11

Right. So luckily, I had a lot of backlog in my office of photos that I was working on, and they're all printed. But I made arrangements where I'd go, and I picked up the boxes and boxes of photos from my clients. And then we would work on Zoom. You know, I could show them pictures and say, "Hey, who is this?" So technology has been our best friend in this last couple years of extraordinary times. It allowed us to do more than we ever thought we could do before, outside of the pandemic. So that to me was awesome. I also, Ray, have sort of thrown away what I always thought that perfection was my goal. Perfection was where I wanted to go. And you know what, it's not all what it's cracked up to be. So I now say that I'm recovering perfectionist because perfection is not what it is, you want the best of the best, you don't want perfect, and don't be afraid of making a mistake. Right? 

Ray Loewe11:09

Correct. When you start thinking about this journey that you've taken, and I think this is really important for other people to understand, the journey is not going to be smooth. You do have to make changes to the bumps in the road. And, and making those changes come from two places, I think they come from within you. But they also come from the people that you hang out within the support group that you have. So talk for a minute about the importance of a community, in supporting you and in your goals of photo organizing, and in supporting you as one of the luckiest people in the world.

Bonnie Shay11:48

So I'm a member of the photo managers, which is our industry association for photos. I've been a member for over 10 years. We have a very solid group of collaborating professionals worldwide, we're not just the United States and Canada anymore. We all share our ideas with each other. We're not so competitive; it's all about helping each other and collaborating. We have a conference. My annual conference is coming up in a couple of weeks, I'll be there in person, finally, again. And we have Facebook groups within this industry, and we have masterclasses, which we do retreats. So all through the year, we have different options to reach out to each other to ask for help or take a survey. Because especially technology impacts our world directly. And technology's always changing, you blink your eyes, and there's some new app or technological device. So that's a big community, Ray, that I'm a member of, and very proud of. We're friends. And we're professional colleagues altogether.

Ray Loewe12:49

And I think the point here is that if you're going to go on this journey of being lucky, and if you're going to design your life, and you're going to live it on your own terms, you need help. In other words, there are going to be times when the world crumbles. And you got to get back on track, and you got to get back on track pretty quickly. So somewhere, you have to have this support community; whether it's a technical support community, whether it's just friends that you hang out with, whether it's other people who are trying to do what you do, sometimes it's who your competitors are. But the idea is to bring you back so that you can continue on your journey. So and I think that that's a key part. Let's talk about your vision for a minute. Because when you started this whole journey 20 Some years ago, you had a vision of what you wanted to do. Now, I don't think that you've changed the vision, I think you've tweaked it, but talk a little bit about what's happened with his vision as you've gone through your story.

Bonnie Shay14:03

Well, my vision has always been there. And I think I've edited along the way. I haven't changed my vision, but I have edited it, or tweaked it, or narrowed it because I find rain. You know, this might be wiring, as you already talked about wiring can be different for different people. I don't want to do a whole bunch of stuff. I don't want multiple choices. When I wake up in the morning, I really want to go right to the niche of what I want to do and focus on that. Because that's where I feel like I'm really the expert, and I really do things well, and I love it. So I think my vision was that I always had to learn. I always had to do and love what I'm doing. I think a recent fork in the road is that I want to give back to other people who need some assistance, or resources, or are newer at this job than I am or are younger than I am. It's so rewarding to now be able to be helping others not just focused on what I needed for myself and what I needed to be successful. And you just get more because I learned from younger people now, instead of maybe always feeling like I was gonna learn from the older people in my world. I'm learning from any age person. And it's all good.

Ray Loewe15:25

Good. Okay, so talk a little bit about the role of podcasts in your journey here.

Bonnie Shay15:33

Role of podcasts has lots of perspective, a lot of characters that I love, that you're always gonna learn something new. And to me every day is a new day to be learning. Who cares how old I am, or how young I am, I'm gonna learn, you know, a lifelong learner. And then I might have heard that message on the podcast before, I might even have heard that specific podcast before. But sometimes repetition is the best thing. And when you hear it at the right time, it really sinks in and really gives you what you need that nugget of boldness and the nugget of truth or information. And I'm learning about new opportunities. And once again, it's taking our technology and allowing us to be so many places in this world without even leaving my house. 

Ray Loewe16:27

I was sneaky about that because Bonnie is one of the regular listeners to our podcast, I wanted to get that in here. But you also listen to other podcasts too. Podcasts are a great way to stay involved to learn. And I think, you know, part of this process of being lucky is you got to have this continuing learning as part of it too. And one of the neat things about podcasts is you can listen to them in the car as you drive. You can listen to them as you exercise. They fit in a lot easier than sometimes reading a book.

Bonnie Shay17:02

I agree. And I'm gonna put it out there. I've told other people this, but I have to put it out on the airwaves because maybe it'll hold me accountable. I would like to do my own podcast. It's a conversation, right? We've talked about it, it's really a conversation. It's not so much an interview, or being a guest, or being all nervous, "Oh my gosh!". No, no, it's having a conversation about what you enjoy talking about. There might be an opportunity that I will do my own podcast on storytelling or something along those lines.

Ray Loewe17:37

We'll stay tuned for that one. Let's kind of finish up because we're getting near the end of our time over here. But I did want to bring up one other thing. And this is typical, the luckiest people in the world. You brought this up in a conversation recently. You know, you exude confidence. You exude passion about what you do. People naturally want to link to you and get involved with you when you have that kind of an attitude. You had a new client not too long ago. One of the things that happens with your clients, is they give you keys to their apartments when they're off in Florida, or Arizona, or other places. So what was the question that came up? And how did you handle it? And you really didn't need to handle it, I don't think.

Bonnie Shay18:26

Well, it was such a surprise. But it turned out wonderful. People find me on Google. It's not even a personal reference all the time that people call me and want to ask about my services. I offer a zoom opportunity to have that conversation when we first want to meet instead of just always on a phone. So it's a little more personal. This gal and I were speaking, and she lives in Chicago. She loved what I said and she says 'yeah, Bonnie, I want to hire you. Great. 'How about next Tuesday at one o'clock?', I said 'great and it's available on my calendar'. We have a date, she gave me her address, gave me all the details about parking. And then just about as we were to sign off of our zoom, she said, Bonnie, how do I know that you're legit? And I had to laugh at myself. Because I've never had that question asked to me because I know I'm a trustworthy person. But I praised her. I said 'Barbie, I get it, why you're asking it. You found me on Google'. But luckily, I was on zoom in my studio, my office and I could point behind me to the boxes and boxes of client photos that I have in my home where I work on them. Then I'm a member of the photo managers. Then I'm working with some other out-of-town clients who are not home when I work in their house. And that's all she needed to hear. We had a great session. Then at the end of this three-hour session in person, she says 'So what's a good next step? We're gonna be out of town for a couple weeks. Can you come and work in my home while we're gone?' And I said 'of course, I do a lot of my work on my own while working my magic'. So I was driving home after that session, I'm cracking up in my mind at first she asked me, 'How do I know you're legit?' And then she said, 'Bonnie, can you come into my home while we're not here and work by yourself.' And so it was just a fun story, a happy ending. And it gave me such insight into people, that they're being safe and careful. But then the minute we connect, I'm trusted, and I love what I do, and I'm working magic on their photos.

Ray Loewe20:31

Alright, let me sum up here. There's a lot that went on in this particular podcast. Here, we talked to Bonnie who's one of the luckiest people in the world. We talked a lot about how her life has changed over time. How, in fact, the luckiest people in the world don't just sit down and design their own lives and have it all come together all at once; that there's maintenance involved in this. But one of the things when you're living in the area of your passion, and you are in fact performing with items where your skill levels are high, everything comes together. And even this idea of asking for credentials is kind of second [nature]. If people feel like they have to ask that, but when you exude what you do, the way you do it, that's just kind of naturally taken care of. And it's one of the features of the luckiest people in the world that occurs. We're running out of time, but I just wanted to thank you again for being here. And you can go back and listen to Bonnie's other podcasts. You can reach her at Mariposaphotoorganizing.com. Thank you for being one of the luckiest people in the world. And thank you for contributing to this book that's coming out. I think it's going to help a lot of people. And thanks again for being you. Taylor, sign us off, please.

Kris Parsons22:03

Thank you for listening to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life and how you can figure out how too! Join us with your lively host Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Transcription:

Kris Parsons00:01

Welcome to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life and how you can figure out how to do it too! Join us with your lively host, Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Ray Loewe00:16

I love that song, but it gets in the way sometimes. Good morning, everybody! Thanks for joining us on changing the rules. We have a great guest today, I'll introduce in a minute, but a quick comment on Changing the Rules. We're given rules all through our life. And I think it was Steve Jobs that came on and said, "If you're living your life under somebody else's rules, you're not living your own life". We have somebody here today with us, who lives her own life. Rebecca Hoffman, say, Hi, Rebecca. Hi, Ray. Rebecca has been on our show before, more than once; she is a really important part of my life, my career because she got me into thinking in terms of stories. So let me tell you, first of all, a couple of things: number one, we have a new book coming out, but our target date is about 60 days, somewhere around mid-March, or mid-April. We were hoping for the Ides of March, but we're not going to make the Ides of March, we're gonna get the Ides of April, or whatever it is. Rebecca is a chapter in our book. She has a chapter in our book because she exemplifies so much of what the luckiest people in the world are. It's the way she lives her life, the way she runs her business, and from talking to her, it's the way she runs her family too. Although, I think sometimes she thinks her family runs her. There are four things that I think about when I think about Rebecca and when they relate to the luckiest people in the world. Number one, she's really good with rules; she makes them work for her. Rules are part of her life. She's accepted those pieces of the good ones that she wants to take with her, but she bends them to make her life work the way she wants to. We can talk about all the things she did during COVID, that you if you really obeyed the rules, you wouldn't do. But she did and she did them with positive results. She also is really good at finding positive solutions to things. She doesn't put up with just saying "there isn't a solution". She digs until she finds what she wants, and she does this not only for families, but she does this for business clients too. I think that's the biggest reason that they hire her. She's also great at following what's fascinating and motivating. We're going to see that a little bit today when we get into this conversation. The most important thing, as far as I'm concerned, is I came back from Africa and I was talking to her about my experience. She just came back and said, "Wow, you have some great stories, package them into stories, put morals on them and become parables". I'll tell you, ever since she did that to me, it's changed the way to think about things. So we're going to talk a lot today about storytelling and about maybe the way we're going to push our podcast in the future. So anyway, Hi Rebecca, say something erudite.

Rebecca Hoffman03:41

Something erudite, right? Isn't that like the age-old joke?

Ray Loewe03:45

Well, I have no idea.

Rebecca Hoffman03:49

Well, thank you for having me, in your midst to talk about storytelling and luck.

Ray Loewe03:56

Let's start out with, one of the things you do is you write a column for a newspaper.

Rebecca Hoffman04:03

Yep. 

Ray Loewe04:04

I know because I heard this just before we went on air, that you wrote one on stories. So take a minute and talk about this column, you know, integrated into what you do for a living, and then tell us a little bit about this column. We'll use that to kind of bounce off the show.

Rebecca Hoffman04:24

The column runs in the Daily Herald newspaper, which is published in the Chicagoland area, and it's a popular newspaper; very well read by a really diverse audience, but they have a big interest in local business and that's how I ended up getting connected with them. I'm writing on the general area is small business, marketing, and communications. The truth of the matter is, and I say this all the time, a small business is like the lifeblood of every community; without it, you just have like mattress stores and cell phone stores,  with all due respect to them. Small businesses are what made communities interesting. But small businesses need a lot of help because they don't have the budgets to do the kind of marketing that big companies do. So I write on topics related to small business so that they can be successful in their efforts. This week's column actually is about storytelling and business. The notion is that big fancy companies like Coca-Cola and lots of others tell stories, and then all of their marketing becomes memorable because of that. We see this with the Superbowl ads and we see this in a lot of places. When I write about things, I think I try to connect the dots. Storytelling is a human universal, I think that's what a cultural anthropologist would call it, means that people enjoy a story across all cultures, socio-economic groups, everything. And so, you know, you and I talk a lot about that, over the years, the notion of storytelling,

Ray Loewe06:01

And guess what, we're going to talk more about it today. So let me tell you a story. And I moved into a new community, it's an older-based community, it's a part of a continuing care facility. I have found it absolutely fascinating because the people that meet here, that live here, have incredible stories. Some of them have done incredible things like put spacecrafts on Mars, and been astronauts, and written novels and stuff like that; but even the ones that haven't done that have incredible stories. We interviewed, on a recent podcast, a young gentleman, he must be 91. I'm going to recap it real quickly. He was given a system from his uncle, who got it from a colonel when he left World War One, as a soldier. The "ABCs of Your Career" have driven this guy through a successful career at DuPont, where he became senior executives and ran a number of companies. What he's thinking about now is, he's got great-grandchildren, ages one and two, that he wants this story to be part of their lives. He's not sure that he's going to be here to do that. The podcasting world allows him to tell his story now. So let's build on that. 

Rebecca Hoffman07:44

Well, that's very interesting and important because I think that gets at what psychotherapists talk about as generativity: the idea that we all have valuable information and experiences to share so that future generations can learn from it. Podcasting is a great way to impart wisdom and have it remain part of kind of a searchable, discoverable database. This fellow you mentioned, it's really wise to do that because whatever he knows, his great-grandchildren would surely benefit from. Beyond that, even we would, or other people. Whenever I hear about, you know, informal or formal systems that people have to achieve something, I want to know about it because I personally subscribe to this idea that I don't know everything. I always asked my friends and people I meet to tell me what I don't know. And I love that. I discover all kinds of things, you know, tell me what I don't know how to do. There's so much, just, I don't even want to waste time trying to figure it out. Just tell me and I'll go do it. Any topic.

Ray Loewe08:47

So tell me about your great, great grandparents.

Rebecca Hoffman08:52

I don't know a lot because my family was immigrants like so many. I have some information. I actually am in the process of conserving it and getting that material to a few different museums, and a research library that has an interest in this. My great grandparents were simple people who came here and didn't have much. But the next generation, they became scientists on one side of my family, and they were chemists. So they were early pharmacists when pharmacy was complex. Because my great grandparents were interested in the success of their children, as all people are, they saw to it that my grandmother in the 1920s was the valedictorian of her class at Columbia University; when women were barely even going to college and she was studying chemistry and became a chemist.

Ray Loewe09:44

What do you want your great-grandchildren to know by you?

Rebecca Hoffman09:47

Well, I think I would like them to know about life being complex and not that easy. I think this new generation, and one's beyond, presume that everything should be entertaining, and fun, and if it's not, it must be boring. Boring is scary to younger people. I think some of the most boring moments in my life are when I've had more interesting ideas, or futz around until something happened that was interesting. You have to be sort of comfortable in that space. So I think that you know, if I would be speaking to my great-grandchildren right now, I would say, embrace boredom, because that's where a lot of interesting things can happen.

Ray Loewe10:26

Okay, so that's what you're gonna say, that's what you would say now. And that's going to change over time. 

Rebecca Hoffman10:32

Yeah, for sure. 

Ray Loewe10:33

But how are you going to do that? Let's think ahead. What I'm getting at here is kind of a guideline for other people to think about. Okay, so you didn't know much about your great-grandparents? You want to know something about them, so let's assume that your great-grandchildren are gonna want to know something about you. What do we do differently here? How do we do this? 

Rebecca Hoffman10:58

Well, I think it's all about documentation. Right? So podcasting is a form of documentation. Writing is a form of documentation. And I think, in a perfect world, we would all write down our wisdom, our experiences, because when you say what would I want them to know? Well, I would want them to know some broad constructs. But I also think there's some pretty good stories that they should know, too, that might be inspiring for them. Reaching back in time from me and even behind me. I think the hardest part is the discipline of documentation, which we all struggle with.

Ray Loewe11:31

Okay, so tell us one of those stories that you think would be great for your grandchildren. I'm really putting you on the spot now.

Rebecca Hoffman11:40

Probably the most basic aspect of my family history is that people can be very simple and have a really good life. It's a contrast. Right? We have a pretty deluxe life right now; we have everything we could ever want, to the point where if I'd like to buy somebody a birthday present, I sometimes struggle with it, because everyone I know has everything they ever needed. The act of honoring somebody, for a birthday, or an anniversary is challenging. When I look back on my family, I see people who worked hard, who they got lucky. You talk a lot about luck in your work, they got lucky, they had the wherewithal to leave Europe before World War Two, and come here. When they did, one half of my family settled in Chicago and the other half settled in New York City. These two families took root like all immigrant families kind of do and worked hard. The people were not necessarily super highly educated the way we think of it now; but I think the thing that I would say is there was a lot of adversity, there was a lot of decision-making being made. Out of that has come generations of people who are highly educated, successful, who find life really interesting. I would say I hope that my kids and their kids and so forth, don't become so blase, that they don't find life interesting, which is always the risk.

Ray Loewe13:07

So I find that's a really good example of something that, you know, it's not concrete, in a sense. And yet, it's a story that you want to tell. This goes out to people who sit there and say, I don't have a story to tell. Right? And you and I know they do.

Rebecca Hoffman13:29

Every single person does. I always tell my clients when I'm working, and I even say this, beyond that to friends, keep everything at the level of a cocktail party. When you go to a cocktail party, you don't talk about spreadsheets usually, you don't talk about calculations unless you're doing something really interesting in science. You talk about stories. Like when I get together with my friends, we end up laughing a lot, because we tell so many stories to each other, almost at our insistence, and it is so much fun. I mean, the stories that people tell are just spectacular. And I think that you know, the everyday person doesn't realize that necessarily; but the everyday person is also a person who if you give them paper and pencils and say draw something, they'll say I don't know how to draw. The truth is we all do. It's just kind of like a muscle that needs to be worked and storytelling is the same.

Ray Loewe14:21

We talked about podcasting is one way to do this, but I want to get into some of the others. The podcast is easy in one sense because you're just having a conversation with somebody, and it's being recorded, and then it's gonna sit in an archive somewhere; technically forever, although who knows what that means. Well, what are some of the other things that people can do if they're sitting there and saying, if you think about what you wanted to know about your grandparents, maybe that's the first guide as to what you want to tell the next generation.

Rebecca Hoffman15:02

It's a little bit like, and this is a hard thought to have, but like, what would you rescue from a fire? If you had 60 seconds to get out of a building and your things were in that building a house or an office? What would you say? Most people say photos, certain books, obviously the humans and the animals in their life; but I think engaging the senses is the way we can record memory and share that forward. Some people are watchers, some people are listeners, some people are readers. So the podcast gets it the listening; a video, or a short movie, or short films, get at the watching. Then there's reading; we write books, or essays and file them away, and maybe by extension into museums or research library, so it's discoverable through life. I have an uncle, he's since passed away, he had a beautiful life with my aunt. When he was, well, some years ago, he made a series of films about their life together. They are some of the most interesting documents of my entire family, they're on DVD. They had a really rich and beautiful life together that involved a lot of travel, and art, and some interesting adventures. He made these movies so that it was his way of making sure nobody would forget. As a result of that, nobody will forget and people will be educated. So I think, you know, a person can write their stories, and you can use workshops to write the stories. You can do audio like this, which I think is really fantastic, or you can make short videos to the extent that you have the resources to do it. I think it's a great thing to do. Well, you can do that with an iPad today. You don't need anything more than that. You really don't. If you need prompts, you know there's people who need prompts, and I'm not alone. It helps us have a discipline; you can look at Gotham Writers Workshop, you can look at StoryCorps. There's another one called Story Worth, which helps people write memoirs. These are really easy, very accessible platforms for storytelling of one kind or another, very engaging, and easy to use. If you feel that just having an a tablet or an iPhone is too vast, that helps people focus.

Ray Loewe17:28

Okay, there are a couple things that I want to bring up here and then I will invite your comments; because you'll shoot me down and tell me they're wrong. The first thing is,  don't think that your family won't read them, or watch them, or listen to them. I heard a story a while ago about a young lady who wrote her father's memoir. He was dying. Years later, she walked into her son's room, her son was I think nine years old at the time, and found her son reading the book about his grandfather. 

Rebecca Hoffman18:08

Absolutely.

Ray Loewe18:09

So it doesn't get lost. It may get pushed around for a long time and sit on a shelf and collect dust, but there's a day when people are going to come out and read it. I think the other thing that we got to be careful about, this is on the technical side, is a lot of the media that we have goes obsolete. So for example, I remember the floppy disk drive, right? Yeah, I had a whole bunch of photos on those. I can't open them for anything anymore.

Rebecca Hoffman 18:38

I know.

Ray Loewe18:40

I think the other thing, and then I'll let you talk here, is people come up with photos of trips. They don't think about what the photos say. They throw them in a box and think somebody's gonna pick up the photos and understand what it is. But I think you do have to organize this a little bit for people. So now that I made these silly comments, Rebecca, talk to me.

Rebecca Hoffman19:04

Well, I think you're absolutely right. I think that that's why museums are interesting. When we go visiting in London, or New York, or Chicago, and you go to the art museums or the anthropology museums; I think of the Victoria and Albert Museum, The Great Bed of Ware, and all this portraiture of people from centuries past. The reason why it's interesting is because somebody is bothering to conserve history; and then they make some sense of it so that when you stroll those halls, you learned from it, or discover things that you couldn't even have imagined. And that's really interesting. Yeah, we can't just have boxes of stuff because I don't think it's fair to ask future generations to carry around cardboard boxes of stuff. I've experienced that myself with things that my parents have that are not organized, and it's super challenging to look at 100 and 150-year-old documents and have no idea how to string it together. You can sort of get an idea, tt's kind difficult. So yes, we do have to provide a context. And so you're right, the biggest challenge is the medium because the technology keeps shifting. And I'm told, you know, like, if you put things in the cloud that's going to be better; but that's even a big question mark. I mean, I think you probably need some blend of like print material and digitized material, and then you probably have to keep converting it to formats that people can use.

Ray Loewe20:23

The future generation, if they want to, will find a way to get it. If they need to. Let's talk for a minute about keeping this simple, because we're getting near the end of our time, unfortunately, which we always do while we're having fun. Writing your life story is a monumental challenge and I'm not sure that anybody really cares about the whole life story. I mean, I think they do in a way, but you talk about you go to your cocktail parties, and you get these snippets, and maybe the idea is an accumulation of snippets.

Rebecca Hoffman21:06

I think so, you have to play the role of curator of your information because it's true. You can't just have like a running feed of everything you did every day, although I do think that would even be kind of interesting if we could possibly conserve that. But we don't have that. So in terms of what to save, it's like, what are the big moments? What are the interesting experiences? What can we learn from bigger moments in our lives? There's some documentary filmmakers who, I see how their processes, they're like obsessive-compulsive about documenting everything; and then when it comes time to make the film, they make a lot of decisions about what goes into the film. And so, you know, there is this notion of the cutting room floor. I think every person, even the most amateur storyteller, or documentarian, about a family history, has to make those decisions. I think the probably you think about the births, the deaths, the big moments, who fought in what war. Tell that story. What was your family business like? What were the challenges or struggles your family overcame to be who they are? What are the great stories that, you know, a child would want to hear? That's the story to tell. Even when they're hard.

Ray Loewe22:21

We have to do this again because you just woke me up with a whole series of things I want to ask you about, we don't have time. The hint is, Sandy and I, we had to give a presentation here and talk a little bit about our travels. The thing that I found most interesting about our travels was who I met along the way and why they were important, why they stock. There's a whole litany of things that kind of raised questions about why I gravitate towards certain people, and what do I really want to know about my heirs. And it's not necessarily what their jobs were. That's important. But I want to know the character, I want to know who did what, and why they were funny, and stuff like that. Let's do this again and let's get into how you craft a story maybe? And what are the things to think about, but I think that the message I'd like to leave with people right now is that, just like you want to know about your relatives in the past, your kids and great-grandchildren are going to want to know about you. And they're not going to be able to find out if you don't put the data somewhere.

Rebecca Hoffman23:33

Correct. But it's, it's lost to history if you don't.

Ray Loewe23:39

So the idea here is to sit down and start to figure out how you can leave a legacy for your kids and start out simply. Small, right? I get that from you all the time. You always start small.

Rebecca Hoffman23:54

You have to. I had a teacher in high school who used to say, when you don't know what to do, do the first thing. And optimistic number one, number one, tell one story. Then you get momentum from those experiences.

Ray Loewe24:10

Let's continue on this later. Rebecca is a chapter in our book and is on storytelling, really; it's on the importance of storytelling, and the craft of doing it, and I'll tell you, she's so much enriched my wife that she's become kind of a significant mentor here today. I want everybody to have the chance to read about it and think about it because I think she can do in a few words of wisdom here for you, what she did for me. And we're all gonna become storytellers. Raka and you're the leader.

Rebecca Hoffman24:51

I think we have that as a native skill that's hardwired into all people. And the trick is not to be afraid to take a chance and tell a story in a more formal way. 

Ray Loewe25:03

Cool. Taylor, we're at the end of our time. Sign us off. We'll be back next week with another great guest.

Kris Parsons25:12

Thank you for listening to Changing the Rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life, and you can figure out how to do that too! Join us with your lively host, Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Podcast Guest:  Ashley Allen

Transcription:

Kris Parsons00:00

Welcome to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life and how you can figure out how to do it too. Join us with your lively host Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Ray Loewe00:16

Keeping with our intro here, this is your lively host, Ray Loewe, the luckiest guy in the world. Let me take a minute and talk about the luckiest people in the world. We have a guest today, who was one of them. The luckiest people in the world are basically people who take control of their lives. They design them to their own specs, and then they live them under their own terms. You don't dare get in the way of one of the luckiest people in the world because they won't let you. One of the things that they do well is they deal well with changing rules. We know that all through our lives, we're given sets of rules, were getting them more and more; little kids, we're given them by our church, our schools, our jobs. For the most part, they're good because they keep us under control. They give us a set of guidelines as to how to live. But sooner or later, the set of rules gets so big that is not relevant anymore. I think it was Steve Jobs, the Apple guy who said, you know, "if you living your life under somebody else's rules, you're not living your own life". So we have with us today, Ashley Allen actually has been with us before, and actually runs Acacia insights out of the Orlando, Florida area. She works with clients all over the world. She coaches them into some incredible concepts and helps them in effect live their life better, too. Okay, so Ashely, good morning.

Ashley Allen01:49

Good morning, Ray. It's just such a treat to be with you and thank you for having me here.

Ray Loewe01:55

Well, we have a bunch of things we have to talk about. I was coughing here this morning when we started. Ashely, of course, not being helpful at all, held up - what was that stuff over there?

Ashley Allen02:08

It's a wonderful product called Entertainer's Secret Throat Relief. So if you talk a lot, or it's used many times by singers. If you want to project that wonderful voice that you have, Ray, I want you to get some Entertainer's Secret.

Ray Loewe02:25

Okay, so I feel inadequate now and I will for the entire show. Thank you very much. But one of the reasons that we have Ashley here today is we're coming out with a brand new book, our target date is about 60 days from now, to have it on Amazon and Barnes and Noble networks and things like that. It's going to be called Changing The Rules. It deals with the luckiest people in the world, who they are, what they are. We've got a set of worksheets in this book that help you become one of the luckiest people in the world. We asked Ashley here because she has a chapter on our book, a whole chapter I might add, not a mini-chapter, a whole chapter. She's there because she is obviously one of the luckiest people in the world over here, and we wanted her to be here. So let's look at a couple of things here, Ashley. We're going to talk about fiddling in a minute, but let's start with why two of the mindsets of the luckiest people in the world that I think are most reflected by you. One of them is that you always tend to follow what's fascinating and motivating. Number two, and you actually help us create this and define this, is that everybody has a personal brand, whether you like it or not. The luckiest people in the world are very, very much aware of this brand and how they show up. So why don't you take a minute and talk about this personal brand a little bit and help us define it? Then we're going to talk about how you can lose it.

Ashley Allen04:22

Exactly. Well right. First of all, I am thrilled about your new book, I cannot wait to see it and I have thoroughly enjoyed your previous publishing's. So I just can't wait to read this cover to cover and really gain insight on all of the different mindsets that you're discussing. I think you really have perfect timing on this. When you think about the world and especially people who either are or who aspire to be the luckiest people in the world. This is really an opportunity for them to gain just incredible insight from you. So thank you for writing the book and I'm certainly thank you for letting me be a small part of it. We've been talking about, you mentioned personal brand, I think it is very simple as personal brand is who you are, as you said, it's how you show up. It's how others have observed you. It's how you interact with people. It's how you make other people feel. What I really appreciated in the work that you and I have discussed relating to your book is that it really has two components. It has the aspect of each of us as individuals, understanding who we are, the talents and strengths and gifts that we have, but also how we are perceived by others. Because to understand your personal brand, you really have to have that external perception. You have to understand how you are seen by others, how you are perceived by others, observed by others.

Ray Loewe05:54

You know, you mentioned that there's a distinct difference here. Let's separate that, knowing what you want, and knowing who you are, are different than knowing how you're perceived by everybody else.

Ashley Allen06:07

Absolutely. I think that that one of the really wonderful ways of understanding who you are, are through, you know, full well that I absolutely adore assessments and behavioral assessments, I think it's that aspect of taking time, give yourself that, that gift of time to reflect of time to think about who you are in what's important to you, and what's important in your life. Right now. We've all had just an incredible experience these last two years. I would imagine many of the people listening to this podcast, have done some reflecting, they've done some research. I believe that that aspect is so critical; but there's also wonderful resources you can tap, such as behavioral assessments, and those give us language behind our strengths, perhaps language that we wouldn't have thought of ourselves. Those great adjectives and descriptors and active verbs that describe who we are. Taking that time giving yourself that generous gift of time to reflect is so important in understanding who you are now, and then understanding how you're perceived by others.

Ray Loewe07:22

But let's talk a little bit about this perception stuff because it doesn't matter who you are, it really matters how you're perceived. You can have this great image of who you are, you can think you know, you're going in a grid in one direction, and nobody else agrees with you. All of a sudden, you aren't who you are. So can you give us a couple of examples of how perceptions change from what people think they want?

Ashley Allen07:56

Absolutely, and I think the notion since we're talking about changing the rules overall, I think it's important to note that our personal brand changes throughout our lives, think  of who you were as an individual 20, 30 years ago was very different than who you are now. I think your values and those kind of foundational aspects are the same, but how you present to the world, how you show up to the world is different over time. There are things that are important to us now that perhaps were not important to us, even a few years ago, pre-pandemic, for example. So I believe it's important to ask others, again, it's that external perception and whether it's through kind of a formal assessment process, or as simple as asking others, how they would describe you, how do you show up? What are your strengths, a simple ask, and getting that information from people really gives you insight into how you are presenting yourself to the world, and to your family, and friends, and to others. That may be very different than how you perceive yourself. You also talk about ways that you can not reflect the positive brand that you want to reflect or do things that go against it. You think about consumer and product brands, it's about being consistent, it's about knowing what to expect, about having that personal connection, have that emotional response. Our personal brand just the same way. When we act in a way that is disconnected from that or is different from that, you can tarnish your brand, for lack of a better phrase. 

Ray Loewe09:43

I'm thinking like right now the Winter Olympics are going on, and of course, I'm thinking about the Summer Olympics because I'm way behind. Okay, but I remember one of the swimmers, Ryan Locky, was his name and he was a superstar. He had this great image. It was a wonderful imagery, he actually gave his metals to kids as he won them, to encourage them and stuff like that. Then he went off and he ruined his brand in a matter of days. That actually just kind of knocked him for a loop. I think he lost his swimming, he lost everything, just because you do something stupid. So what are the things that people do that cause them to lose their brand? How can you be aware and how can you be on guard because it seems like you have to be on your toes 99% of the time.

Ashley Allen10:39

Well, and you do. And again, I think we all have those people with whom, we can show the good, the bad, and the ugly, those really dear members of our family, and those really amazing friends like you Ray that you can truly be yourself. You can have those moments perhaps when you're not at your best. But when we think of how we generally interact with others in the world, whether it's at work, or through our work in the communities we're involved with, or the activities involved with, you do need to be on your toes. If you think of it from a work setting, you're always interviewing, every meeting you have every interaction you have. You're interviewing either for the job you have or for the next job. So when you think about those behaviors, especially when you want to project and protect a positive personal brand, it is about consistency. It's about having people understand who you are and relate to them in a meaningful way. Things that can tarnish your brand. The example that you used with the Olympic swimmer is a perfect one. That's on the world stage. It happens in groups and in small ways. I remember a client that I worked with years ago, who phenomenal person, phenomenally successful woman. Great at her craft, a great manager, and leader of people. She had worked with me for about a year to really help elevate her emotional intelligence, her ability to be more empathic, more empathetic, and she did phenomenal work. She worked hard, you know, like an Olympic athlete, you train you, you consider your behavior, and you have those positive interactions with people. But one day, something happened at work. It was a tipping point for her. Instead of just collecting her thoughts, realizing she was possibly going to say something that she might later regret, or take a walk around the block, she very publicly and very loudly vented. Telling everyone her feelings in a matter of less than 10 seconds. She eliminated all of the great work that she had done before.

Ray Loewe13:01

Yeah, what do you do?

Ashley Allen13:03

I think in that moment, again, recognize when you are having those moments, when you believe that you are shifting from being who you want to be, to perhaps someone who you don't want to be. Just be mindful of that, be intentional about that, and recognize, should you stop a conversation? If emotions are high, or if you're in a conflict situation, things of that nature, just say, "I think we need to put a pause here, let's get back together and discuss this when emotions aren't so high, we all need a little bit of time". Recognize those moments. That doesn't mean you can't be have healthy debate or be passionate about something; but when we think about the values that we want to reflect, kind of clue yourself in on those times when you're going against the grain when you're going against that positive image that you'd like.

Ray Loewe13:59

Sure, sure. How do you train for that? I mean, you know, what, what can you do?

Ashley Allen14:04

I think it's heightened awareness. I think it's not just as when you are understanding who you are and who you want to be at, at this stage in your life and going forward. It's through heightened awareness. It's also you can have accountability buddies on this too. You can have brand buddies. You can have people who know you will and can give you positive feedback, or kind of give you feedback that is important for you to hear. I think personally, it's a way for you, yourself to just be in touch enough with who you are that you know when you are diverging from the personal brand that you want to reflect.

Ray Loewe14:51

Now, you know, I'm thinking about how easy it is to ruin all the work that you did, you know, it could be a Facebook post. Yep. Okay. It could be having too much to drink at a party and saying the wrong thing to the wrong people. Thanks for making me really concerned about this. 

Ashley Allen15:17

I think we all want, we all want to show a wonderful range of emotions and again, be passionate about the things we're passionate about. But I think too, and again, this, oftentimes, we think of this in a business sense, but know your audience. Think about the person you're speaking with, to whom you're speaking, and understand and think about how your words are going to fall.

Ray Loewe15:38

Okay, so I think it's really important to put this whole thing in perspective here. I mean, we talk about if you want to feel lucky, if you want to be one of the luckiest people in the world, you're going to do a bunch of things. Number one, you're going to make the rules work for you. Number two, you're probably going to look for positive outcomes, you're going to try and make sure you're in a good mood most of the time. Then you're going to design your life so that you live in under your terms. Part of that though, it's not good enough to just say this is who I am, you got to look at how the world is going to look at you. I think the luckiest people in the world take their time to do that. Because nobody wants to have these confrontations later. Nobody wants to say, you know, I've worked so hard for this, and I blew it all by doing something stupid in a moment. We're gonna need to come back at this. At some point, I need some time to think about this. But of all the things I think I've done that are stupid, and I've done many of them, by the way. In fact, I'm probably the king of stupidity. I've just been really lucky that I haven't been caught here. I think that this whole concept of knowing who you are, and how you're perceived, and then protecting this perception is really, really critical. So let's change the subject because I want to get onto really important things. One of the things that you do is you take the edge off of thinking about aging, and you think about living. So you came up with two things on our last podcast. You were talking about the fact that one of the ways you keep from getting to be an old codger is you play a musical instrument, or learn to play one, or you learn a foreign language. So let's talk about that for a minute, then give us an update on where you are, and then let me lament what you've done to me.

Ashley Allen17:58

I love this. I love this. I was so hoping we were talking. When we spoke last time, I had mentioned that I believe the two of the best ways to preserve your brain health, as you go through the decades, is to learn a new language, second, or third, however many. And also, as you said, to play a musical instrument, I chose to learn to play the fiddle. I chose to learn this about six years ago. Well, no one told me how hard it is to play the fiddle. As I said last time, I have learned so much about myself. I've learned so much about learning, and about being new at something, and about being excited about something, and about failing at every level. But I also said last time, it is something that it's counterintuitive. You can be so bad at something but enjoy it thoroughly. That's still the case with me. I am a little better than when we spoke several months ago, but perhaps not a lot. But it is something that is a cumulative effort. It's something that you learn every piece by piece, note by note, minute by minute. I am absolutely thrilled to hear that this is going to mean adventure that you're going to take too, right?

Ray Loewe19:20

Well, I'm not so sure about that. So let me finish the story over here. So after you picked up the fiddle, I was talking to my wife, Sandy, and she thought it was a great idea. What she did is, she bought me a ukulele. That ukulele sat in a box for two years. It got moved from the old place to the new place and sat in storage for a long time. It came out here because we actually have where I live now ukulele club. We had entertainment the other day of 40 people who had no idea what they're doing. Playing ukulele and it was just an absolutely fun time because everybody was singing along. Everybody has smile on their face. So I was also telling this story to Sandy that I'm so bad at music that I failed recorder or flute when I was in elementary school. So this year, I got a recorder for Christmas. Yeah, I think that one's gonna stay in the box, but the ukulele is out. I'm pattern this after you because I think this is part of the perception I have of you. In this case, it's not necessarily of an accomplished musician, is a person who is having an incredible amount of fun with something.

Ashley Allen20:47

Oh, absolutely. The other aspect of it, which to me is so much a part of being one of the luckiest people in the world of lifelong learning, it's learning something new, It's taking a risk. If you were to hear me play, you know, it is a risk to listen. And it is, but it's just going in there learning for learning sake. It doesn't necessarily mean towards a goal, or qualification, or certification, or degree. It's just the joy of learning. But like you have understood with your ukulele ensemble, that it's also a community. It's the people that you meet along the way, when you start that activity when you start that goal. I've just been exposed to people who are phenomenally talented, and I have such a deep respect for what it takes to be that kind of fiddle player. Just learning step by step and it's humbling. It's very humbling. But I think every once in a while, we need to kind of have a little dose of humility. So I think that's a good lesson too.

Ray Loewe21:56

Well, unfortunately, we're nearing the end of our time here. I wanted to make sure that you came back on the show because you're such a critical part of our new book. You're a critical part of my life going forward. You're part of the luckiest people in the world community. I think everybody can see why when we talk about your passion about branding and being aware, and protecting your brand. Also talking about just joining a community and being a fiddler. So thank you so much for being with us. You got to come buy the book and read about Ashley. It's a wonderful experience in and of itself, it's worth whatever the books gonna cost.

Ashley Allen22:43

Well, Ray, as I said, at the very beginning, I cannot wait because I think that you are giving such a gift to so many people at precisely the right time. Your process for thinking about breaking the rules, of changing the rules, and understanding yourself, and giving people a distinct process. It's an incredible endeavor and an incredible gift. So thank you.

Ray Loewe23:11

Okay, well, Taylor, sign us off. And Ashley, thanks for being with us today.

Ashley Allen23:16

It's been my pleasure.

Kris Parsons23:18

Thank you for listening to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life and how you can figure out how to do that too. Join us with your lively host, Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Podcast Guest:  John Thackrah

Transcription:

Kris Parsons00:00

Welcome to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life and how you can figure out how to do it too. Join us with your lively host Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Ray Loewe00:16

Good morning, everybody. This is Ray Loewe, otherwise known as the luckiest guy in the world. And we're broadcasting remotely today we have Taylor, who's sitting in the Wildfire Studios. I'm at home doing this from my study. And our guest today is in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. And I'm going to introduce John Thackrah in a couple of minutes. But let me remind everybody that the name of our show is Changing the Rules. And through our lives have, we're given a whole lot of rules. And they start with our parents when we're very young, and then they go on to the schools, and then the church gives us rules. And then our jobs give us rules. And most of these rules have a lot of sense when they're given to us. But many of them become obsolete and get in the way, as we move through life. One of the things that rules do is they tell us what we can do and what we can't do. And if we live our lives by other people's rules, we're living their lives, not our lives. So we find this group of people that we kind of represents here, the luckiest people in the world, are pretty good at making the rules do what they need them to do as they go through life. And every week, we get a great opportunity, we get to feature one of the luckiest people in the world. And the luckiest people in the world are those people who design their own lives and then live them under their own terms. And you're going to find today, our guest does that exactly. And he's done it all of his life. And he's taken control of his life. And he's had a very, very successful life. So John Thackrah, John to say hi, first to everybody. Hi, Ray and thank you. Okay, so So John had a very successful life, mostly at the DuPont Company. And John is now retired. And we had a chance to talk the other day reflecting on some of the things that you know, he thought he did really well in his life. And he had a secret success formula here. So, so John, let's start out by talking a little bit about who you are, your education, and your family, your DuPont career. And one of the things I really want you to focus on is how you measured your success at DuPont.

John Thackrah02:44

Okay, I first Thank you, Ray, for this opportunity to talk about the ABCs of a career. I've been living with it for most of my life and using it for most of my life. So it's nice to have an opportunity to do a podcast on this subject. I was born and raised in Philadelphia, in the West Oak Lane area of Philadelphia. Very, very nice community when I was growing up there, at a wonderful time growing up there. I went to Germantown High School. And that's significant because, in 11th grade, I met a girl by the name of Doris Van Skiver. And we went together and did a lot of things together. And subsequently, in 1953, we got married. So that started a long and wonderful relationship. I went to Philadelphia Textile Institute after graduating from high school. And that's somewhat significant for me because my grandfather, two uncles, and my father all went to Philadelphia Textile School. It was located Broad and Pine Street down in South Philadelphia for 67 years. And in 1949, they moved out to Schoolhouse Lane and Henry Avenue and build a new campus. And we were the first class to go into that campus. They changed the name from Philadelphia Textile School to Philadelphia Textile Institute. And the reason being that they were able to offer a degree in chemistry. And that's the course that I wanted to pursue. So I went there after graduating from Philadelphia Textile Institute, I was I got an opportunity to work for the DuPont Company in the dyes and chemicals division of the organic chemicals department at that time. At that time, the DuPont Company was broken into a series of departments. And this was the organic chemicals department and in the dyes division of that department. Now dyes just for everybody's information are used for coloring textiles, paper, leather, all the things that we know carpeting. And it's a very interesting business that was a very big business in the United States, the fifth largest employer in this company was the textile industry up until about 25 years ago when it's really all moved off to China and other places in the world, unfortunately, because it was such a big employer. But I had a 42-year career with DuPont. And I started with a wonderful title, my title was a dye sales trainee. And literally what the company did was bring people like me into their operation, and then taught me a whole lot about the company because they didn't want me to go on the road and represent the DuPont Company without knowing a lot about the company, so if people wanted to learn something, they could ask me a question. And hopefully, I would have had an experience that would let them make the right contact inside the DuPont Company. My career, I sold direct sales of dyes, I was a tech rep for some time. And then I started to get some promotions and moved up the ladder in the dye business till 1979 When DuPont decided to go out of the dye business. And I was left kind of hanging on the line but was fortunate and able to get into the colored pigments business, which is related but totally different. The pigments, businesses in paints, auto paints, house paints, plastic colors. So it's a totally different business. I spent some time in that and finished my career and specialty chemicals, especially by the time I went into the specialty chemicals organization, the company had changed their structures, they had five strategic business units. And I was in specialty chemicals strategic business unit of the DuPont Company and wound up as the director of sales and marketing of that organization, which was a pretty wonderful job, a great career, my career took me all over the world to be all over the country. And I learned a lot about the world and the people in it.

Ray Loewe07:15

And thanks for sharing that. But talk a bit about your family and your kids. You have several kids, you got children, you got grandchildren, you got great-grandchildren, right.

John Thackrah07:29

That's just what I wanted. I was just going to take off on a back to Doris, Mary Doris van skiver, in 1953. And we had two children, and two wonderful children, and four grandchildren. And just last November 4th, my first great-grandson was born, which is really a wonderful experience. So my kids, I think did very well. They certainly heard about the the the ABCs of a career. But we were married. Doris and I were married for 67 years. And she passed away a year and a half ago here at Willow Valley. So that's kind of the background that I was going to give you about my family unless you want to know more about my kids what they're doing now and so forth.

Ray Loewe08:21

I think what we really want to focus on right now is you had a successful career. And obviously, you went through all the ups and downs of building a career. And it sounds to me like you had some pretty good direction along the way. But I know for a fact that you had a secret weapon here. Okay. And the secret weapon goes back to World War One. And uncle and somebody named Colonel Brown. I think so without divulging the ABCs yet because that's top secret. We'll get there. Tell us a little bit about how this stuff got into your life from World War One.

John Thackrah09:03

Okay, that's, I think, kind of a nifty story. My Uncle Al, my father's brother was born four years before my father in 1896. So he wound up in the First World War and went to France as enlisted man. And his commander was a colonel, a Colonel Brown. Colonel Brown was a really wonderful guy. He was the owner of a textile mill in Germantown. And so my uncle Al growing up in Germantown that kind of brought the two of them together. And they were over in France, and from the way, I was told the story when the war was over. Colonel Brown, being a good friend of my uncles said Al what are you going to do when you get back to the states and my uncle said, I have no idea. And Colonel Brown said that's a that's an unsatisfactory answer. And I'm going to tell you a little bit about what how you should be thinking. And he gave my uncle the ABCs of a career, that I have no idea where he got it or when he got it, but all we know now is it's well over 100 years old, been around for a long time, and has been useful for for for that whole time, and will be useful 100 years from now. So it works. You're a proven example that it works. Is that correct? Yeah. What happened was this uncle of mine, really a nifty guy, he never had any children. So I was kind of his adopted son and my Uncle Al and I spent a lot of time together. I'd go see him, he lived in the Onley area not too far from West Oak Lane, I got a chance to see him quite often. When I was getting close to graduating from Germantown High School, we had lunch together one day. And by the way, in 1944, he went blind, totally blind because of a detached retina. And so he, he had a seeing-eye dog by that time, and I took him to Morristown, New Jersey to get his dog. So I know a lot about Becky, his seeing-eye dog. But we were having lunch together. And he said, What are you going to do when you graduate from high school? And I said, I really don't know. He said, that's an unsatisfactory answer, I want to give you something to think about. And then he told me, what happened to him at the end of the First World War. He said I'm going to talk to you about the ABCs of a career. And he said, I hope this works for you, as well as it worked for him. As a blind guy, I always thought that was kind of wonderful for him to feel that way. But anyway, I think now might be a good time, if I just walk you through what the ABCs are.

Ray Loewe11:55

Okay, you're on go to let's start with the A's and that, and then we'll work to the C's.

John Thackrah12:01

Okay? A stands for all about you. And I find that it's very simple to say, and involves two questions. And the two questions are, what do you really like to do? And what do you really do well?  And what my uncle explained to me was, you've been going to school for all these years, you run around the streets of Philadelphia, and you go on vacations, you things and when you're going to school, you think you're there to get grades, and that's all true. But the fact of the matter is what's going on is you're learning all about you, you're learning what you really do well, and what you like to do. And if you can really get a grip on that, it will be the best information you can have to lead you to, to a career choice. And this career choice is an extremely important thing for you to make. Because if you make the wrong one, it can lead to all kinds of problems. So this issue of what do you know all about you? And can you put it down on a piece of paper, what you really like to do and what you really do well? It's, it's a, it's a great thing to do, it will give you the clue to what kind of career you should pursue. So for me, we spent time that day talking about me, what did I really like to do? And what did I do well, and as things I told you earlier that my family was very much associated with the textile industry and the dye business. So the bottom line was, I was the kind of person that he at least said, I think you can sell. And he said, therefore I think you ought to be selling something either in the textile industry, maybe dyes, maybe chemicals, maybe finishes. But he has spent time in the textile industry, he went to textile school. And he said, I think that's a, I'd be a good choice for you. Selling is a wonderful career if you can do it. He said I think you have the talent to do it. I think you ought to pursue it. But you got to get an education so that you can sell, sell something that will be good for you and good for the company that you work for. So we spent that time talking and concluding that what he thought I should do. And that of course involves going to fill off your textiles to this new campus that was going to be located at Schoolhouse Lane and Henry Avenue. He knew a lot of people there. And so he certainly was going to help me a little bit and getting okay to go to go to the school. And then he went into, I guess two things that are important. One is what he said was the definition of success. I guess I'd like to read it to you so I say it exactly as he gave it to me. By the way, I took some notes that day was your good because it the whole concept laid inside me until I decided to write about it in the late 1990s. But success as he defined it was achieving a sustained high level of interest in your work and being satisfied and proud of what you do over a period of many years. So that's a very important part of the whole thing you could describe success is how high you go in an organization, how much money you make all kinds of different ways. But that was his definition that he got, from Colonel Brown. So we then move into the B's and the C's, if you'd like me to cover that. 

Ray Loewe15:31

Yeah, let's do the short version of it because I've got a bunch of questions for you that I think our listeners are going to want the answers to. So give us the quick version of the B's and the C's.

John Thackrah15:42

Okay? Uh B stands for behavior. And what he told me is, you're going to face two kinds of behaviors for the rest of your life. One will be social, want to be professional? So you go to work, and you have all kinds of things that you get involved in, what kind of person are you everything from? Somebody asks you to do work? How do you behave when that happens? How do you deal with the people you're around? And when How do you handle the work that you're asked to do? And, and so in your working life, you're going to have all kinds of things you face, that will impact your behavior. And it will be extremely important, whether you're alone in your own business, or whether you're working for a large corporation, behavior becomes an absolutely a critical factor. And what he explained to me was, there will be people that there's no doubt they would, they will be better than you. But, they will hurt themselves because they will make behavior decisions that are not good ones. And whether it's drinking, or gambling, or all the kinds of things that we might think about, or are on the list of things you can get in trouble with, you need to be conscious of the fact that these things occur, whether you're outside your job, or inside your job. So be very much aware of the letter B for behavior. That's the short version. 

Ray Loewe17:16

Okay, let's get into C's over here.

John Thackrah17:20

And see I found interesting, and that C stands for competitor, what kind of competitor you're going to be. And what my uncle told me was, the day you go to work, whether you like it or not, you're going to start competing. If you have your own business, you will compete with whoever your businesses competing with in the world you're working in, you're working for a corporation, to be all kinds of people around and you'll be competing with them. Your management will be watching you and seeing how hard you work. What kind of results do you deliver, when they give you projects to do all kinds of things that are associated, but the bottom line is you're competing. So athletes compete, try to win. And in business, you try to win in whatever you're doing in your business community. So being a good competitor means you want to be fair, you want to be good, you want to do what's right. But you want to win. And that becomes a very important part of your character. And, and a very important part of the judgment that management puts on you. And so I found that there was no doubt in my world, I worked for a very large corporation that I was competing with a lot of people and I recognized that some of them were better than I was in a lot of categories. But if I didn't get into some of the difficulties that I saw, some of them get into, it was certainly helpful for me. So there are the three parts of the ABCs all about you, your behavior, and what kind of competitor you're going to be.

Ray Loewe19:07

Okay, this is a great set of tools. And what you've also done is you sent me a kind of a PDF or an electronic document that summarizes all of this. And when we do our podcast notes and summarize, we'll put away that people can get a copy of this if they want. And this will allow them to get into the a's and the B's and the C's a little bit more. But there are a couple of things that you mentioned here that I think are really important. Number one, how many times in your life did the A-B's and C's did you have to go back into them because things changed and you had to reinvent yourself?

John Thackrah19:51

Well, that's a tough question over a 42-year career but I think probably I recognized how competitive an arena I was working in certainly when I was on the road selling dyes for the DuPont Company all over the east coast of the United States, it was a tough job and a very, very competitive job. What I think really struck me was when I got into some of the management jobs that I held, I had people reporting to me, and, and what happened was, on many occasions, and I, you know, I could talk, talk about these for a long, long time about details. But what was happening was people would come into my office, and say, I'm a Ph.D. chemist, I'm a research chemist for the DuPont Company, I hate it, I don't like what I'm doing. I would love to get into the marketing world, that's where I think I belong, or somebody else would come in and say, I really think I'm a financial person, I don't want to be selling. And I would have to deal with and listen to their story of what was always a sad story, they had gone to school, they got a degree, the fact that matter is, they didn't work very hard and all about you the A part of the ABCs, they got into education, because maybe somebody told them, they should be a chemist, or somebody told them they should be in the financial world. And they got into it and didn't like it. So now they looked at a large corporation. And saw what they thought was where they wanted to work, and came to me to see whether or not they could get transferred into where they wanted to be. So this really struck me because what it said to me was, how critical this A part of the ABCs is, and all parts of it are critical. But that's the big one. If you choose the wrong career path, right from the get-go, you're probably going to wind up like a lot of these people would say I come to work every day and just put an x on the calendar, I get rid of that day. And it's almost inconceivable to me because I can only say I spent my 42 years. And you know, I had bad days and bad trips and travel experiences, whatever. But all I can say is I had a fantastic career that I couldn't wait to get after I was really afraid to retire because I was having so much fun and enjoyed it so much. But because I was doing what I like to do, and that I could do well. And that's really the simple bottom line. And to hear these stories. What that led to was, after retirement, I just talked, I talked to every one of these people about the ABCs. It's unfortunate that you didn't learn a lot about all about you. And you pick the wrong path. So now we have to try to make a change. And we did, we made a lot of changes because it's good for the company. And it was good for them. An employer and employee was drawing X's on a calendar every day, when they go to work is a horrible situation. We want them to be excited to go in there and do the best they can to help themselves and the company. So those changes were made. And what that did to me was after I retired, I decided I didn't want to just let this thing drop and fade away. I'd write something about it. So I put the little brochure together that you're talking about. And I thought it was interesting. In retirement, I was a member of The Elks in Cecilton, Maryland, and showed it to a couple of guys that were in the Elks with me. And they liked it so much. We talked to these people in schools down there and Cecilton High School. They put one of these pamphlets on all the high school graduate seats when they were graduating all the graduating classes each year, they would all read this thing. The reason being they're all 17, 16, 18 years old, and they're making this critical decision, what do I want to do? What career do I want to pursue? This thing would at least make them understand how important it was for them to know about themselves. And, and so that that happened, and I doubt if it's still going on down there, but I certainly and in my retirement years, I've run across a lot of grandparents who talk about their grandchildren who don't know what they want to do for a living and I'd always give them a copy of The ABCs and talk about it. And it works. It's very simple. And a lot of people have sent me notes and letters telling me that they were stumbling over what they tried to figure out what they wanted to do. And now after looking at this, they took a hard look at themselves and have a pretty good idea what they want to do. So so that's kind of how it worked, and how it's been used. And it's been out there for a long time and at least I feel comfortable that it's and today getting a little boost also So through the, through your efforts to maybe find a few more people that might find this very important to them at a stage in their life while they're trying to make a career selection decision.

Ray Loewe25:12

Cool. Well, you know, unfortunately, time flies when you're having fun, and we're nearing the end of our time of it here of John. But we're gonna have you back because you're certainly one of the luckiest people in the world. And you raised several more questions I want to talk about later, and another podcast about how important the mentorship of your uncle was to you, and how important you were as a mentor to other people. Because I think a lot of this stuff you can't do by yourself. And I kind of have another secret for everybody because I think the real reason you're doing this podcast is you want to share with everybody else, but I think he had this great-grandson. And you want to get this message to him at some point in time. And I think it's a great message. And you know, the all about you. It really is everything, and people don't take enough time to deal with it. So why do you have we have time for a quick closing moment? Do you have one last thing you want to get across?

John Thackrah26:14

Well, I guess I would like to say that here I am, at age 90, retired here at the Willow Valley. And I believe it, the ABCs are still cooking in me because today I play golf, I shoot pool and I compete, I try to win. And I believe that's just a reflection of the ABCs that I still want to be a good competitor. I still want to I want to behave myself, of course old age makes you behave yourself. But I just think the ABCs are still with me. And every opportunity I can hear at this wonderful place that we live. I'm able to share the ABCs with a lot of people here who can pass it on to their family members. So I hope it continues to help people for a long time.

Ray Loewe27:00

Okay, so look at our podcast notes. Everybody we'll show you how to get a copy of The ABCs. And John, thank you so much for being with us today. You're certainly one of the luckiest people in the world. You have it together here, don't you? And Taylor, time's up joining us next week. We're gonna have another exciting guest and Taylor, why don't you sign us on please.

Kris Parsons27:23

Thank you for listening to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life and how you can figure out how to do that too.  Join us with your lively host Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Podcast Guest:  Dale Johnson

Transcription:

Kris Parsons00:01

Welcome to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life and how you can figure out how to do it too. Join us with your lively host Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Ray Loewe00:16

Good morning, everybody. This is Ray Loewe. And I'm sitting at home in my den today we're doing a zoom interview with one of the luckiest people in the world. And, and before I introduce Dale, let me remind you that the purpose of changing the rules is to showcase one of the people that we think is one of the luckiest people in the world every week. And this is a person that you can use as a role model because they did things that help them take control of their life, and are helping them live things under their own terms. And we can learn a lot by listening to them. So today we have a young man, his name is Dale Johnson. And Dale say hi to everybody.

Dale Johnson01:01

How you doing Ray. Good to see you. And thanks for having me.

Ray Loewe01:06

Well, Dale, and I met at a place called Willow Valley. And we're going to talk about that a little bit. But let's go back and talk about Dale and build his background a little bit because Dale started with one of the most unusual careers that I have run into, and that is in college he majored in what Dale?

Dale Johnson01:29

I majored in geography.

Ray Loewe01:31

Okay, now, why does anyone major in geography and then once one majors in it? What does one do with it?

Dale Johnson01:40

Well, I got interested in geography because I had a wonderful teacher in the eighth grade in a geography class. And she was wonderful. And I had no experience as a child traveling. And I just loved this, this opportunity to look at all these wonderful places all around the world. And so when I got to college, I kept thinking, what am I going to major in? And so I thought that I would think about the classes I really enjoyed, and the geography class I absolutely loved. So I ended up majoring, and got a couple degrees, and was fortunate enough to actually have a career in it.

Ray Loewe02:20

Well, that's, that's pretty cool. You know, one of the things the luckiest people in the world do as they follow what's fascinating and motivating to them. And it's rare, though, that they follow that early in their career. And, you know, we have so many kids going to college today that just go into traditional degrees, and they really have no idea where they're going and they're not excited about life. And I think, Dale, you're, you're lucky there that you found the right place, and you moved forward. So where did you work when you come out with a degree in geography, what do you do?

Dale Johnson02:52

Well, at first, I really wasn't sure what I was going to do with it. Back in those days, a lot of people just majored in a lot of different things. And they weren't that concerned about their career. But I ended up doing a lot of land use planning, I did environmental protection work. But my specialty ended up being computer mapping and GPS, that sort of thing. Way before Google Maps ever existed? And now I kind of think about it. Having computer maps and GPS on your phone. It just kind of blows me away? Yeah. So I was able to actually have a long career in the field of geography. And then also my wife and I ended up for about eight or 10 years, we ran our own small, travel tour company. And that was a that was just fun geography.

Ray Loewe03:41

Yeah. Okay, so you took geography from the, not the corporate world, from the government world, largely, right?

Dale Johnson03:49

Yeah. A lot of it was government Yes. Yes.

Ray Loewe03:51

To now to the personal world of loving life and exploring places and doing things like that. So one of your mantras in life is never stop adding adventure to your life, I think, right? Isn't one of the quotes that you come up with all the time?

Dale Johnson04:08

Oh yeah absolutely. That's, that's, that's one of my, one of my, you know, my mottos? Yeah.

Ray Loewe04:15

So, so I think running a tour company does this, right?

Dale Johnson04:19

Yes, yes.

Ray Loewe04:21

So where did you go? What did you do? What kind of travel did you do? How did you keep this going? 

Dale Johnson04:29

Well, we actually hooked up with a local college in the Baltimore area, Stevenson University. And we did travel study tours. So we would take students along, but we also opened it up to outside folks, and a lot of the outside folks liked the fact that there was a geographer on board, and there was a, there was an educational component to it. So we ended up doing tours, the American Southwest. That was our main tour, but each year we would try to add a new one. So we did Atlantic Canada. We did London and the English countryside, we did Paris and the French countryside. So we did that for about 10 years. And then after a while, we thought we'd rather do a little more traveling on our own, rather than going and taking 25 people and being responsible for them. So we kind of gradually shut it down. But it was a great experience for the 10 years.

Ray Loewe05:21

Okay, now you talk to me a little bit about the kind of travel that you and Christine did. It's Kirstine. Right. Right. Okay, she's, she's the better half of the organization. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So you were talking about the kind of travel that you did, where you really went to places and kind of stayed for a while because you felt this need to, you know, get more in-depth and things. So talk a little bit about what motivated that and how it worked out?

Dale Johnson05:51

Well, in 2006, right  toward the end of my wife's career, she worked for McCormick, the Spice Company. So she got an assignment overseas in England for a little over a year. And about every two months, they could fly her home, or they could fly me over there. So other than Christmas, I would just end up going over there. But she lived in this marvelous little village, quaint little village, she lived in a house that was built in 1565, that had a thatched roof. So we loved it there. And we kept thinking, when we retire, we would like to go and travel, where we can stay in places for a longer period of time, add a little adventure, to your vacation, your travels, that sort of thing. So that's what really kind of motivated us. And for many years after that, we've looked at various mechanisms to go in and stay someplace for a longer period of time.

Ray Loewe06:47

You know, when we were talking and kind of our pre-interview here, you know, there there were a number of things that came up that I thought were absolutely fascinating, and, and they have to do with your philosophy of life. And this is why you're one of the luckiest people in the world, by the way, because the luckiest people follow what's fascinating and motivating. And they do it under their own terms. I think you've done this. So you were talking about, you know, never stopped any adventure of your life, you know, getting involved in activities off the beaten path. You know, you said something about you're fascinated also with the tiny little forks in the road.

Dale Johnson07:25

Yes, yeah. Yeah, there's all kinds of little things I, I do think back of, you know, how I met my wife, there was a little fork in the road, some things in my childhood that just send you off in totally different directions. But they're very, very minor little things that, you know, you think back and look at that fork. And you could have gone one way or the other. And those are always quite interesting. Yeah.

Ray Loewe07:52

But you made your choices, and then you live with them. And again, the adventure comes at, okay, yes. Yeah. Okay, so So there are two other things I want to hit before we go on to where you are now. And let's talk about the Zoomobile a little bit.

Dale Johnson08:12

I guess that's an example a little bit off the beaten path. I've always been involved in volunteer activities. And that was shortly after I retired. I started working for the Maryland Zoo in Baltimore. I actually worked for them for two years. But then it was kind of getting in the way of my travels. So they we've just switched over to volunteer status. And then I could have a little more flexibility with my schedule. But we had about 75 animals that we took out to schools and nursing homes, things like that. And every day you went out and you made people happy. And it was a wonderful, maybe the best job I ever had was that job. And you still it was a great opportunity. You still had to learn because you had 75 animals that you had to learn to be able to talk about. You had to learn how to handle them, things like that. But that was a little bit different, a little bit adventuresome, but it was just a great volunteer gig.

Ray Loewe09:08

So what was the most interesting animal you took out to the kids?

Dale Johnson09:13

Probably the penguins. The Maryland Zoo in Baltimore, they specialized in South African penguins. So we had several of those we took out people love them, but they were a little testy and a little unpredictable. And so we always had to be very, very careful with the penguins. So but people absolutely loved them.

Ray Loewe09:36

Okay, and how about dangerous?

Dale Johnson09:40

Oh, probably most dangerous were the parrots and the McCall's they were one of the last ones that you would get trained on. And you'd have to build up a little bit of rapport with them. But their bite, they could actually break a broomstick and they could cut a broomstick in half. So you had to be very, very careful in handling them and make sure you had a good rapport with them so that they never got mad at you. 

Ray Loewe10:06

Cool. So how does one get a job like this? I mean, you know, you think and I'm excited by looking at your path here because you really do follow the adventurous. So you know, I mean, how does one all of a sudden take off and say, I'm going to travel the world? And do these kinds of things? And then how the heck do you get to running a Zoomobile?

Dale Johnson10:29

Well, some of them were just luck that when I found out through a friend, but he also did it. So. And he was retired. And so the two of us for many years, we did the Zoomobile. Together, we had a great time. And some of the other things I may discover, through the internet, I just started thinking about what I'd like to do. And then I just do some, some research on them. But there's a lot of wonderful websites out there that allow you to add some adventure to your travel. One of the early ones early on, that I got involved with was one called Help Exchange. And what you could do is you could volunteer through various organizations or farms, things like that, about 20 hours a week in exchange for room and board. So one of the things I did my wife and I, we ended up, back in about 2007, we ended up spending six weeks in Northern Ireland at a plant nursery. So we did a lot of work around the place there. And then we had plenty of time to go out and explore. And it was just outside of Londonderry in Northern Ireland. And that's a very interesting place in Northern Ireland with all the troubles that went on between the Protestants and the Catholics. But as an American, we got sort of a free pass, but being there for six weeks, you could really get an understanding, a little bit of understanding what was going on there, and an appreciation for it.

Ray Loewe11:56

Okay, so we have a pattern here, Dale. Okay, a really interesting pattern. So we start with geography, then we go into traveling the world and we travel in a different way though, we travel in places where we can really get immersed in these things. We get a vehicle that's filled with animals and we get to take them out into the world and have broomsticks bitten in half by parrots and McCalls, you know, this is not a normal way that people retire. But it's a way that people can think about retirement going forward. That adds spice to your life. And I noticed I got the spice from McCormick. Okay. We had to pull that in. Okay. And it's, it's really pretty cool. And you wound up at the same place, I kind of wound up this is a wonderful place hidden away called Willow Valley where we take another phase of our retirement life and say we're going to live here and keep the adventure going. Right. Okay, so let's talk about how, unlike many people who just sit on a beach or play golf, you're going forward here with adding value to other people's lives as well as yours. So let's talk a little bit about biking. And let's talk a little bit about here called the Lancaster Farm Trust.

Dale Johnson13:25

Yeah, once I arrived at Willow Valley, we mainly moved here because it was such an active community. There were just so many, many things to do. So we get involved in a variety of things. But also we've always been heavily involved in volunteerism. So one of the first things I did was to look at what we could do outside of Willow Valley because I wanted to get involved in the community. And I had known a little bit about an organization called the Farmland Trust. And what they do is they preserve farmland. And they were set up as a nonprofit to deal mostly with Amish farms that they would preserve. And Lancaster County is number one in the country in preserving farmland. And I actually knew that from when I worked in Baltimore County, I was also involved in farmland preservation. So getting involved in the farmland preservation was a way that I can bring my geography back in because it's very geographically oriented. I think about half the people at the Farmland Trust are actually geographers, so you're dealing with landscapes and land and things like that. So basically, what I do there is I go out and visit the farms that are required to have a visit once a year once they're put into preservation. So I do a visit just to document any changes that sort of thing. chitchat with the farmers, and again, most of them are Amish.

Ray Loewe14:47

Okay, and you get there by bike.

Dale Johnson14:51

Yes. I do. I do it by bike. I've always been into biking. And, in fact, when I was in Baltimore I ran a little program called meals on two wheels, where we delivered meals on wheels by bike. And I had about six riders, I worked on that program and kind of built that up. So when I moved to Lancaster, the gentlemen of Farmland Trust knew about that. He said, Have you ever thought about visiting the farms by bike? And I saw Yeah, I have. So he gave me the okay. And we figured out how to do it. And it's kind of nice. Now when I show up on the bike, I get a little, maybe a little credibility with the Amish showing up by bike as opposed to my car. Yeah. So it keeps me in shape. And I get to ride through the beautiful Lancaster countryside and the farmland. And you get a close-up look of what you're, you're helping to preserve.

Ray Loewe15:45

So so. So when you get to old to ride a bike, I guess you're going to go to a horse and buggy deal, right? And getaway. You know, one of the things that you're showing us it's really interesting, we've got a lot of people on here that talk about changing careers. And they keep working throughout their retirement. And you don't need to do that you can. Not that you're not working because you are okay. But you found a way of reaching into the volunteerism stage to keep your life interesting to add value to other people and to make things fascinating and amusing.

Dale Johnson16:23

Exactly. Um, I've always kind of thought volunteerism, you have two options, you can go out, like the Zoomobile, and do something totally different. And it's challenging because you're learning something new. Or you can go out and get involved in something where you pull in your skills from your profession. So I've done it kind of each way.

Ray Loewe16:46

Yeah, and you have this bevy of quotes that you gave me that drive your life, let me throw out a couple of them. Because I'm not going to expect you to remember them all. But life is either a daring adventure or nothing.

Dale Johnson17:00

Yes, that's a quote by Helen Keller. And I love that one. And I have a capability to add quotes to the end of my email. So I have about 50 of them. Whatever the conversation is, I just put an appropriate one in there. But I always like to have some adventure. I'm not the kind that goes out and does adventure that's dangerous. It's a controlled adventure that I'm more involved in. And so that's a big part of my life and also my wife.

Ray Loewe17:29

Yeah, okay. Life is like riding a bike. You either keep moving, or you lose your balance.

Dale Johnson17:37

Yeah, you have to keep moving in order to keep your balance. And that's a very nice quote. Yeah, it just says it all. Yeah.

Ray Loewe17:49

That was Mr. Einstein, by the way. Yeah. And then you have one more. He had a lot of good quotes. Yeah. Yeah. For scientists, he did Okay. Yes. Yeah. All right. Let me hit one more in here that I just think is kind of a fitting way to kind of close to the end. And, and because I think it's what you're trying to do, in your own way. And this is a quote by somebody by the name of EB White. And it's I arise in the morning torn between the desire to improve the world and to enjoy the world. Yes, yes. Makes it a hard way to plan my day, doesn't it?

Dale Johnson18:28

Yes, yeah. And I think that's, that's been a big part of my life, and also my wife, we want to enjoy things in life. But we also want to be out there making the world a better place. So we've always been involved in volunteerism. And as we kind of move forward, we think about that more and more either through charity, or volunteerism now.

Ray Loewe18:51

okay. Well, you know, Thanks for being a leader here and showing us another way of doing things and approaching this whole world of retirement. I think the idea is that you've shown us, Dale, that there's a whole lot of ways out there that you can stay active. You can volunteer with organizations, you don't have to have your job, you can do this through volunteerism, it's exciting is intriguing. You know, you've got different ways of looking at traveling. And I think that that's helpful for those people that want to be one of the luckiest people in the world. And, and we define the luckiest people in the world as those who design their own lives and live them under their own terms. And thank you, Dale, for being one of the luckiest people in the world. And joining us today for this podcast. You've given us great insights.

Dale Johnson19:47

Great. Thank you very much, Ray Loewe. Appreciate it.

Ray Loewe19:51

Yeah. And we'll be back with another Dale, we'll never find another Dale but we'll be back with maybe a Christine or something like that Okay, but whatever it is Taylor sign us off and we'll be back next week with a great podcast.

Kris Parsons20:08

Thank you for listening to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life and how you can figure out how to do that too. Join us with your lively host of Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world. 

Guest Co-host:  Marc Bernstien

Podcast Guest:  Marc Manieri

Transcription:

Kris Parsons00:01

Welcome to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life and how you can figure out how to do it too. Join us with your lively host Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Ray Loewe00:16

Morning, everybody, and welcome to Changing the Rules. Changing the Rules is a show that is designed to showcase some of the luckiest people in the world. And the luckiest people in the world. And our definition are those people who are going out and actually redesign their own lives personally, and then live them under their own terms. And when you do that, life comes together and everything works well. And part of that is being able to deal with rules. You know, we all have too many rules in our lives anymore, and they start giving us rules when we're little kids, our parents give us rules. The schools give us rules, the churches give us roles, our jobs, give us rules. Often our sponsors give us rules too, but we may have to stick with. And then the whole idea is if you wind up living life, by everybody else's rules, you're not living your own life. So one of the things that the luckiest people in the world do is they know how to deal with rules, and how to filter with those through those rules, and take the ones that are important to them that are going to make their lives worthwhile and wonderful. So we have two guests today, we have Marc Bernstein is back again. And, uh, Marc is our co-host today. And Marc is also introducing us to a contact of his and a good friend of his Marc Manieri. And Mark is just well-marked one of the luckiest people in the world. That's all I can say. And you're going to be fascinated when you see how his life has evolved, especially over the last few years, and what he's doing now to help with the lives of others. So first of all, Marc Bernstein and because we have two Marcs, I'm gonna have a tough time today. But Marc Bernstein is the author of The Fiscal Therapy Solution. 1.0.  Did I get that right this time?

Marc Bernstein02:17

Excellent, Ray, you're getting it.

Ray Loewe02:18

It's a best-selling book. And it is a definitive guide to living your life from a financial perspective. But integrating all those other lifestyle things that have to be there, too. So Marc, welcome back to changing the rules and make whatever comments you want, and introduce us to Marc.

Marc Bernstein02:42

Always my pleasure Ray, as I said to you guys this morning, quite an honor to be with two of my favorite people in the world and one podcast. So it's pretty cool. You know, I've been a guest on this podcast. And we talk about, you know how we are all lucky in life. But we all know that luck isn't something that just happens to you. It's something that you make out of the circumstances you have. And there's a lot of great stories and Ray, you've had a ton of great lives of different people and what they've done with those lives. It's really a great podcast in that perspective. And I've learned a lot from your podcasts. And you know, when I sked Marc to be on the show, he's one in my mind was one of the luckiest people in the world to but I also know that he you know, he made his luck to, you know, and he'll tell you what, you know, he, he talks a lot about intention. And he'll talk about that, and how he took intentions he had from a very young age and created the life he wanted to have. And like all these stories, it's a fascinating story. Marc, I know Marc as a high-performing coach for high performers. And in fact, he's been my coach for the last couple of years. And through that we've also become friends and we've become, I've gotten to know a lot about his background. And Marc, as we started, like, do you just, you know, talk a little bit about your childhood where you grew up? Because it's vastly different circumstances from where you are today. And we'll get to that. But why don't we start with that with your background and kind of the things you saw as a child. And when you start remembering your first intentions about what you wanted your life look like?

Marc Manieri04:31

Yeah, that's great. First of all, it's great to be here. And I want to acknowledge you, Ray for founding this podcast and Marc for you being here. And I love the spirit of this. So thank you for having me. So, I grew up in Rochester, New York in a middle-class neighborhood. And my mother was a school teacher. My father was an insurance salesman. And one of the things that I learned and discovered early on was that money doesn't grow on trees. And that you, you know, we couldn't just go out and have whatever we wanted. Because money was, let's say scarce in my family growing up, and it came in fits and bursts. And it was an interesting lesson for me. And I didn't realize I was learning it at the time. But one of the things I certainly discovered later on in life is I want to create freedom in my life. So I'm really certain that while things were scarce, let's say when I grew up, it created a foundation for me to discover one of the things that's most important to me, which is freedom. And while money in and of itself, doesn't grant freedom, it contributes to it. And so I started to orient myself in a way where I could create in my life, and I discovered that having money was a way to create freedom in my life. And, you know, my life started to move along that trajectory. So more I could say about that. But you know, what, what else would you like me to say about it? Well, Marc?

Marc Bernstein06:20

Well, one thing is I, I love that you you brought up about perception of money and scarcity. And it's not a plug for my book. But in the book, we talked about people's relationship with money, and their thoughts about money and their conditioning about money. And some of the ways that you can sort of break out of that. I know that your business background, I believe, I don't know if it started there, but a lot of your early business experience was in the mortgage business. And I know that your brother was an influence on you. Very positive influence in a lot of ways. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?

Marc Manieri06:54

Yeah, that's great. So the thumbnail sketch of it is I got started in real estate, actually, before mortgage and I, I went to every single seminar and training I could get my hands on in Rochester, New York, and had a pretty good rookie year, you know, was a six-figure earner in my first year, and at the age of 22-23 years old, like that was a that was a lot of money. And what I started to discover is man, I'm so inspired by what I'm learning from all these individuals that were teaching me that, I decided I wanted to be the teacher. So I discovered a local real estate sales training firm, and I went to work for them. And I made a lot less money than I did in real estate. But I began to realize what my calling is, and what really resonated with me, and I love contributing to others. And I also love the sales process and discovered that I was pretty good at sales. So then I went to work for another real estate sales training firm. And in this firm, we were at our high point, we grew this company, from five people to 85 people from half a million in sales to 10 million in sales in five years. And we are coaching 1000 people, many in the real estate industry in many in the mortgage industry. And I was watching the growth of all of our coaching clients. Now I was on the sales side of the business. And I was watching the growth of these people. And now we're getting to around 2005-2006. And I was in charge of all the sales on the US side. And it was a Canadian-based company. And at some point, somebody turned the lights out, like the sales on in the US side, they just weren't happening anymore. And there was a lot of say, immaturity in our company. And I realized, and I looked at all of our clients that were making all this growth, and I realized, man, I got to hire a coach. So that's when I discovered coaching. And I hired a coach. And I realized that being a part of this company didn't align for me anymore. So I left I moved to Florida, and my brother was running a very successful mortgage company, and I got into the mortgage industry. And that's how I really got into the mortgage industry. Marc and nobody knew that the financial crisis was coming. So by mid-2007, that company didn't even exist anymore. And from that day, I've been self-employed ever since. And I went back to my roots of training and then eventually got into coaching and, and over the next four years from 2007 to 2011 like life was a real challenge. It was a real struggle. You know, I was attempting to create sales training and sales coaching clients in the mortgage industry, when in the state of Florida when 90% of the people were getting out of that Business. And you know, you say my brother has been an influence on me. Well, my brother was always a guy that was willing to take risks. And because of the way I grew up with some scarcity, I was always risk-averse. And I remember one day being broke. And, you know, just feeling like, what why is this happening? Like, there is more in me than is happening right now. And I was on the phone with my brother. And he said, and I was talking to him about wanting to just earn $50,000 a year, and I remember he, he stopped me cold. He said, Dude, you're not a $ 50,000-year earner, you're half a million dollars a year earner? What are you doing? And like that just woke me right up. And that started to shift my relationship with money and my relationship with my own sense of self and what I could go create in the world. And I started to take some more risks. And, and with that, I started to, you know, upgrade my prospecting and going out in the world and started to create more clients. It was right about that time when I hired another coach, who, you know, Marc Bernstein, who changed my life forever. And that started my trajectory, on a totally different path over the last 10 to 12 years.

Marc Bernstein11:26

So I just like to set that up a second, I know, Ray's gonna want to ask you about your life today, and some of the recent intentions that you've acted upon. But since you brought that up, Marc, let's talk about so I first met you through a company that you're a partner in, called on to core and of course, called create powerful, which was powerful in my life. And in fact, um, I'll be doing it again for the third time this year. It's, that's how good it was. And that kind of leads into your meeting with your current partner. And I, let's talk about that for a couple minutes.

Marc Manieri12:02

Yeah, well, I was starting to get some traction in my sales training business that I was, you know, just driving up and down the east coast of Florida cold walking into mortgage company offices and sitting outside of sales manager offices, and anybody who was willing to let me spend an hour with their salespeople, I would do that I would train them for an hour. And then I would invite them to work with me for three months or six months, or even a year. And then at the time, I had a friend who mailed me a book, and he said, You got to read this book. And I've always well, not always. Back when I got into real estate, became a voracious reader. And I had a stack of books on my nightstand, you know, a dozen of them. And he sent me this book, and every week you would call me and he said, have you read the book yet? Have you read the book yet? I said, No, I haven't read the book yet. Finally, a couple months later, I'm like, alright, I'll read your book. And I read this book. And it was like the authors wrote it just for me. It was exactly what I needed to read at exactly the right time I consumed it in two days, I'll never forget, it was called the prosperous coach. And I was so taken by it that the authors, I research the authors and I, and I realized, in my research, they were holding a four-day workshop, that cost a couple $1,000. That was across the country in LA, and it was five days later. And I knew I had to be there. So I called these guys and they said, I want to sign up and they said, it's full. I said, Well, you don't understand. I told him the story of how I read their book. And I said, I got to be there, they opened up another space, I flew across the country. And I was at this event for four days. And it was a really powerful event. And at that event, there was about 50 students in the class, I was one of them. And every time this one person in the crowd spoke, the whole room was like, Oh, my gosh, what did that guy say? That he should be up there teaching the class? Well, it turned out that that guy was coaching the two individuals leading the workshop who had authored the book, and that guy turned out to be a guy by the name of Brandon Craig. And I flew home, and I called him and I said, What does it take to work with you? What would it take for me to hire you as my coach? Because you know, you are doing what I want to do you have a thriving, coaching practice. And I want that and I'm really struggling over here. And he told me what it takes to work with him and somebody had to pick me up off the floor because it was more money than I made the previous year in total. And so I went to my wife and I said, Hey, honey, I met this guy, and I think I need to hire him. And here's how much it costs and it's a lot of money. What do you think and She was brilliant. She said, Well, you're thinking about going to get your MBA. And you're about to spend $100,000 doing that. And that's a two-year program. And you could go be in debt 100 grand, and come out of that program and not have a thriving coaching practice two years later, you could spend almost as much money as that on this guy. And he's already doing what you want to do. And you could create what you want to create. So I'm behind you, whatever you decide. And that was amazing. And so I called him back. And I said, All right, I want to work with you. And he said that's great. Send me a check for the whole year to work with me, which you got to pay upfront. Because that's the definition of commitment that I learned. And I didn't have the money. But I went out and started to talk to people in a different way. Because I had already committed to working with him, I had to go out and find the money. And I ended up talking to people in my life and found four different people that were willing to invest in me. And that's how I came up with the money to hire him. And I hired him in the first year. And he taught me some key things around intention and commitment. And I ended up that year doubling my coaching business. And I hired him again. And then I doubled my coaching business again. And then I hired him again. And then I doubled my business again. And that was you know, how I really learned some key understandings around intention and commitment and leadership that has me, you know, teach those to other people today in the in the domain of high performance.

Ray Loewe16:42

Okay, my turn Marc. Okay. So so there are a couple things, you've told a great story so far, Marc about a couple of things. And, and this concept of, of commitment, and freedom, and drive, and the importance of coaching, okay, and, you know, I've met so many coaches, and they all have coaches. And it's interesting to me, okay, but that's part of what coaching is all about. It's like, we all need an accountability source. And we all need teachers, and we need to find them. But what I want to focus on is not that I want to focus on your spouse a little bit. I want to focus on some lifestyle changes that you brought into play. And the fact that you suddenly picked up then took 12 weeks off, and how you put that into your system, and then you moved all the way across country? And how did you do this and keep a business together? Because this is the lifestyle, I think that makes It's the freedom part of the money.

Marc Manieri17:47

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for the question, Ray? So when I turned self-employed back in 2007, my wife was a Canadian, she moved in she wasn't self-employed, she, she wasn't employable for a year. So she took the year off, and she found really great things for us to do. And she's amazing at that. And she's a traveler, and she said, Okay, you know, this is the lifestyle that we want to live. And I was always too frightened to actually leave my home office and go anywhere for any substantial amount of time because I thought I had to grind it out. You know, and I was at a time in my life when I had to grind it out. And that was fine. And I was grinding for several years. And finally, a couple years later, she said, Look, we created a life very intentionally where we could travel because we don't have to answer to anybody. She was self-employed as a writer, after she could work, immigrating to the US, and I was a self-employed leadership and performance coach. She said It's time to go somewhere. So I was like, okay, whatever. And finally, she came to me one day, and she said, I've booked us a house. We've rented us a house in the mountains of western North Carolina. We're going to Asheville, North Carolina, and I said what we are, she said, Yes, we're going and we went that one summer, and that grew to eight weeks, and then that eight weeks grew to 12 weeks. And from basically 2009 on we've now traveled every summer. And so you know, that has been a key part of our lifestyle Ray, and I've loved every minute of it. And it's been fun to get out and see the world we've we've traveled across the country we've done Austin, Texas, we've done Lake Tahoe, we've done Portland, Oregon, we've done Vancouver. And then recently we grew out of Orlando, Florida, which is where we were living for 15 years and Kristen being Canadian and the US seeing some of the world. I forgot to mention we did Europe as well as Australia. And we realize we want to live somewhere beautiful. So we decided to move our life across the country to Victoria on Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada, and we now live here full time.

Ray Loewe20:06

Okay, so there's, there's a message in here that you've got out to us, and I want to summarize it or have you summarize it. But it starts with this idea of intention. There's a piece in here that talks about, you know, money was important to you up to a point, but obviously, it's not all money because it's a lifestyle that's being able to go where you want to go and do what you want to do. Okay, so what's the message that you have for other people? How do you do this stuff? And I think it comes down to intention, and what do you want?

Marc Manieri20:44

Yeah. Well, intention, as I see, it, is having a real clear desire, and a clear aim on what it is that you want to go create. And, you know, one of the things that my now partner and coach, former coach, and now partner and mentor, Brandon says, is, is a great analogy. He says we're all, you know, like a boat. And if we don't have intention, we've got these two twin engines on the back of a power goal. We're all powerful individuals and human beings and creators. But without intention, we have no rudder. And we take all this power that we have inside of ourselves to create, and we just spin around in a circle. And intention is the rudder for our life, it's the thing that has us move in the direction that we want to go. And I love that analogy. And to be a boat without a rudder is really sad. Because man, we can do really special things, we could do anything that we want. And that starts with getting clear about it. So that's intention. And the second piece to it is commitment. And what I learned through my work with Brandon through the leadership work that we do, and that we teach is that commitment is to do what is necessary. Period, like, full stop, to do what is necessary to produce the outcomes in our life. And what that means is and it's going to sound so oversimplified is the only way we don't create our intention is if we quit, if commitment is the antithesis of, of quitting. So if we get a clear intention, we look into our life, we see what we want, and we just move towards it. And we're committed to never stopping, we can't not get that we can't not not get there, it will always happen. And, you know, I've discovered that in my life, and everything I've ever put my mind to is something that's been created. And I've seen that. And once people really understand this concept of intention and commitment, it's like, watch out, everything in life begins to change for them. So that's what I would say about intention and the commitment piece that goes with it. 

Ray Loewe23:12

Cool. Okay, unfortunately, we're near the end of our time. So let's go back to Marc Bernstein for a minute. And, Marc, do you have any final comments that you want to say any final questions you want to get to our other Marc?

Marc Bernstein23:25

Over here? I'm just two things. One is, you know, I've worked with Marc. And when he talked about exactly what I've gotten out of it, I am now at the point in my life, where I was always a creator, I was always an innovator. I was always pretty good at my job. But I had a lot of things in my way, as many of us do, I had a lot of things that were blocking me out and that kind of thing. And the thing that he just talked about, about commitment being the antithesis of quitting is something I've learned. And just in the last couple of years, I've created some of the things you're aware of these forward focus forums and some other things I'm doing out of the blue and I look back on and said, Wow, that, you know, in a pandemic, out of nowhere, over the internet, you know, that you can create these things. And I now am a big believer that whatever I want to create, and whatever plan intentions are for the future will happen. My only question left for Marc, in terms of his own journey is what next? Do you have anything to say about what's next? 

Marc Manieri24:32

Well, there's a set of intentions that guide me that you are aware of Marc, and there's four of them. And those are to make money to make connection. And by connection I mean, spending quality time with like-minded and like-valued individuals to make love and to make a contribution. And when I'm in those four intentions, that's what's next for me what that actually looks like, you know, I don't really know I let it unfold as it's supposed to. But those four intentions I've gotten really clear about and they've produced phenomenal experiences, and until they're going to change, then for now, I live by them, and they really work for me.

Ray Loewe25:29

And I think, you know, you summarize everything really well, there, you don't exactly know where you're going. And I think that's one of the problems sometimes is that people think they have to have this exact path. But what you need to have is the intentions you need to have your guiding principles in place, is that what we're talking about?

Marc Manieri25:48

Yeah, and I think the clarity of intention is defined by the individual, you know, I do put up a number in terms of making money, and I and I, so I have some specificity there, Ray, but you don't have to, you know, you know, it all lives within the individual. And so we could be specific, and specificity can really serve us at times. And other times, you know, if we just get clear about a guiding principle that can make a difference in our life as well. So there's no clear formula to it. And I think that's useful.

Marc Bernstein26:23

For Ray, I'll just mention, for those who are not, you know, as goal-oriented and don't want to be that specific about it. The book that I read, really, at the beginning, starting at the beginning, when I worked with Marc, that really influenced me, and I know it was an influence on him was The Untethered Soul by Michael A. Singer. And that's such a miraculous story of, you know, just having an intention, basically a guy who just wanted to meditate, and everything that came out of that. So that's for anyone interested in that subject? I think it's one of the best books out there. And it's something that I keep going back to because it's a, and also is the book which was the prologue to that, which is called The Surrender Experiment. were amazing books on that subject. Well, well, this

Ray Loewe27:10

is great. Thanks to both of the Marcs over here.Mark Bernstein, Thanks for being back with us again.  Marc Manieri, it's been a pleasure to meet you and to understand uh what's driving you and how you make life work for you. And I think you're very definitely one of the luckiest people in the world. You've got it together, you figured out what's meaningful to you. And thank you so much for being with us today.

Marc Manieri27:34

It's been my pleasure. Thank you, guys.

Ray Loewe27:36

and Taylor sign us off.

Kris Parsons27:40

Thank you for listening to changing the rules are a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life. Now you can figure out how to do that too. Join us with your lively host Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Transcription:

Kris Parsons00:01

Welcome to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life and how you can figure out how to do it too. Join us with your lively host Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Ray Loewe00:13

Good Morning, everybody, and welcome to change the rules. This is Ray Loewe that quote-unquote, lively host, and Kristine kind of set me up with that. And we had a Christmas party last night, Kristine, I'm not so lively this morning. So you're gonna have to fill in for me.

Kris Parsons00:34

Yeah, too, too much, too much eggnog? 

Ray Loewe00:36

Yeah well, I hope we always do better than eggnog. So So anyway, changing the rules is our show that's been going on for a couple of years now. And it is about the fact that we have to many rules in our life and rules, clutter our life. And rules allow us to do two things and only two things we either have to obey. And there are things that we must do or we can't do. Or the smart people in the world, the luckiest people in the world, change the rules so that they can create a life of their own and live it under their own terms. So last year, we had a great year, we talked to some incredible people. And Kristine Parsons of Parsons, PR Welcome to changing the rules and introduce yourself and then kind of kick-off by talking a little bit about what you thought we accomplished last year.

Kris Parsons01:39

Sure. Sure. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Ray. Yes, I'm Kris Parsons, Parsons, PR. I've been doing this since 2015. I did it before I met Ray. But Ray has given me some great pointers through the years on how to strengthen your sole proprietorship and small entrepreneur businesses because that's, that has its ups and downs with it and the luckiest people in the world always find a way to solve things. So that's what I learned. I do know we have done a lot. We've been very, very busy this year. And it's been a pretty crazy, different strange year, we, we've done about 95 this year, almost 100 episodes total of what you've done with changing the rules. And this year alone, you did 45. So this is our last one. We'll start up in January. But they've been fascinating. I was looking through some of the episodes. And I think we started out the beginning of the year, January of some very interesting people. One is a master barbecuer in Georgia, but he grew up in Africa, among wild animals and a lot of conflict in the country. So that was fascinating. And then we ended, I think, just last week with a woman who was a high-powered corporate executive, who live who lived the real high powered strong life. Now she's braving the world of entrepreneurism and doing her own business. And just some of the interesting things she's learned. It's really fascinating people, there's so many stories out there. And every day, I'm fascinated every week, actually, when we do this, to see some different things. And Ray, you do have a wonderful knack of bringing out things in people and we learn things about people that you would never even imagine by meeting.

Ray Loewe03:28

Yeah, so let me tell you what we're going to do next year. This is a prequel. We're not in the next year yet, but really quickly. Yeah. We're going to skip our 100th Episode, you know, changing the road, everybody has a 100th episode, sooner or later, we're not going to have one, we're going to go right from 99 to 101. So Taylor's got to figure out how we do that. Because why should we have a 100 when it's just what everybody else would do. So I found a couple of interesting things that came up last year, we did a series on this idea of where we're going to all live as we get older. And we had some people come in and talk about lifestyle settings. They talked a little bit about long-term care kinds of things, and the things that we have to make sure that we continue to feel lucky. And you know, one of the things that keeps coming out of this luckiest people in the world is that that they have a vision and a plan. Now the plan is not a 100% Guaranteed plan. It's a plan that allows for a lot of pivoting. But they have a sense of where they're going to go and what they're going to do and we found that people who don't think that way, all of a sudden run into roadblocks where things change and they have no idea where they're going to go and they waste huge amounts of their life. So um we talked a lot about that. We interviewed a number of writers last year and they were writers of different things. We had a young lady writing children's books, who based them on a dog that she had that died and we have the stories of Moe and, and how he traveled the United States. And this is all geared towards helping younger children get a sense of where they are in the country and getting a sense of directions.

Kris Parsons05:29

Nobody seems to know how to go anyplace these days.

Ray Loewe05:32

Yeah, we had a bunch of people who write on memoirs and telling their stories. So we had Donna Luboo, from Chicago, and she talks a little bit about the theater that she runs where people can write a five-minute story and stand up in a bistro and read or tell their story in front of a group. And it's amazing how many people come up with great stories and we had Clemence, a writer of memoirs, she helps people write their memoirs and things like that. We have filmmakers. We had a couple of them this year. We had Arielle Nobile She's a filmmaker, that filmmaker that talks about stories about America. And she was working about some exciting things about we're all Americans, why do we think we're different? You know, and interestingly enough, talk about people who break the rules or change the rules. I just got an email from her the other day, she just picked up and moved to Argentina. Wow, really? Yeah. So you know, you want to break some rules? Let's go. Right?

Kris Parsons06:49

Yeah, I'll go to Argentina. That's great. Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

Ray Loewe06:53

No, go ahead.

Kris Parsons06:54

No, I was just gonna say what also was interesting this year is there was quite a lot of pivoting, you know, because of this pandemic, which we're not totally out of yet. And that was fascinating to see. And I go back to what you said, having a plan that makes sense. Because they don't get flustered. They don't, you know, curl up, and, you know, don't know what to do and panic, they just find a way to pivot. And I think all of us, you and I included, learned a lot more about technology and zoom calls and how to communicate virtually to the point where I enjoy it more now. I mean, it's kind of nice to do things in your pajamas and not have to get dressed up all the time. But what I learned how to communicate differently.

Ray Loewe07:36

You know let's think about that a little bit. Because there are two major things that I learned out of doing these podcasts last year. Number one is that we're probably living in one of the most fascinating periods ever, of time. You know, we sit there and there's two groups of people, there were those that dwell on the kind of terror of COVID. You know, the fact that it's been awful. We've had uh 800,000 People die in this country. And yes, it has been an awful experience. But there's another group of people that have taken this. And they've just made it into one of the most vibrant periods ever. So I remember talking to Skye Bergman um Skye is a filmmaker from California. And she put together a film last year that aired on PBS. And it was about a whole bunch of people in their 80s and 90s. And how they talk about life. And one of the comments that she came up with is she said, you know, if we had been in normal times, I never could have introduced this film to all of the people I had a chance to introduce them to because I would not have flown to Europe to do a showing of the film. I would not have flown all over the country and yet with zoom, I was able to do these things. And a whole lot of people got the benefit of what I did that otherwise wouldn't. So I think again, the luckiest people in the world just think this way, and they it's one of the big things that I learned.

Kris Parsons09:22

I found it fascinating that I you know, I'm a little older. I didn't think I could do some of these things. And I could and now I feel a little bit more proficient than a lot of the technology and that's a wonderful feeling.

Ray Loewe09:37

yeah, you're fading out Kristine. Oh, I am. so talk into the mic.

Kris Parsons09:42

Okay, I'm talking into the mic. Can you hear me now?

Ray Loewe09:45

Okay, there we go. There we go. Just like that add, I can hear you now. 

Kris Parsons09:48

You can hear me now. Like I just feel like I learned a lot more technology-wise than before. And it gives you a wonderful sense of confidence that now you can you know Master newfangled things.

Ray Loewe10:03

you know, and there's more to it than just the technology and just the fact that you know, we can do these things we run in, we've run into some people that have made changes, because of what we went through. So you mentioned Paula a while ago, and Paula is a perfect example of it. Here, here is a person who was successful by all means she's, she's a partner in a very, very large consulting firm. She's making gobs of money. Okay, she's generally excited about what she does. She's working on interesting things. And then one day, she sat back and said, you know, enough is enough. Yep. And I'm gonna make this change. And we're seeing people do this, you know, the Gallup poll people came out a long time ago, a couple years ago. I guess that's a long time. And they said that 80% of the people in the United States, quote, hate their stupid jobs. Now, I think hate is probably a little bit straddling that is a word. But I certainly have met a lot of people that are not totally happy with their jobs. Well, look at what's happening. In society right now, we all learned we don't have to go to the office anymore. So now companies are coming back and say, Okay, it's time to get back to the office and people are saying, No, I'm not going. Okay. And I'll quit my job if I have to. Well, you talk about exciting times, and about it and exciting opportunity to follow what's fascinating and motivating to you and to do what you want to do in life.

Kris Parsons11:46

Be happier. That's, that's what it's all about. What do they say? Nobody puts on your tombstone. You know what you did at work? They talk about the things you did that you enjoyed in life?

Ray Loewe11:56

Yeah. Okay. So I learned another batch of things here. Okay. And I'd like to hear your take on it. But let me kind of get through this. We have great stories all around us. All we got to do is listen. Right. So we did a series last year on storytelling. We had Bonnie Shay, come on and talk about photographs. We had Rebecca Hoffman come on and talk about the power of the story. And one of the things that Rebecca said in her interview, she said, I go to parties and I don't ask people what they do. I asked them, tell me a story. So I did that the other day. Sounds really stupid. But we were at a Christmas party. All right. And I'm sitting there and there's this lady sitting across from me and uh She's one of my neighbors. I hadn't really met her before. And I would guess she's in her 70s, 80s, maybe an older, but a vibrant young lady, and I said Jane, so what's your story? And wow was I impressed? So Jane has a 1912 EMF? No, I didn't know what an EMF was. But it's a car. It's a car. And you have to crank it to start it. Now, she's got a real car, too. But all of a sudden, we got into this great story about old-time cars. And I think I'm gonna get a ride in one of these. I can guarantee you that Jane will be on one of our podcasts, and we're going to talk about following what's fascinating and motivating and some of the things that you can do in life. And you don't get this if you don't ask the right questions to people. So at dinner last night, okay, I'm talking to a friend of mine. And my friend, Dick Coyne, said, come on over to my table over here, Ray, I've got a guy I want to introduce me to and I met John. John is well into his 90s. He is an incredibly lucid guy. He tells stories great, and he was telling us last night about his father, and how his father was getting out of the service in World War One. Okay. And a colonel came up to him and said, Al Al, was his father's name and, and I said, No, what's your plan for what you're going to do when you leave the service? And Al came up and said, Gee, I don't know. And the colonel came back and said, That's not an acceptable answer Al. Okay. And, and, you know, he gave out his ABCs of life. And I'm excited now to hear more about this. So I can guarantee you, John will be on our podcast in the future, and he's going to tell us about these ABCs and how He used it to structure his life and how we used it to help and help his kids and other people around them. And the whole idea comes back to if you don't have a plan, and you don't have a vision, you're not going anywhere. You're going to run around in circles. Right? That's listening to the stories is one of the things I learned. So what stories did you hear Kristine? 

Kris Parsons15:23

I was also gonna I'm already jumping ahead with you saying plan is. So what is the plan for 2022? You know, we, we finished here this year. Very, very exciting. What what do we want to do for 2022 with changing the rules?

Ray Loewe15:39

You mean, you actually want me to have a plan, I don't have a plan?

Kris Parsons15:44

Hey, go back to John and get the ABCs.

Ray Loewe15:47

Well, yeah, it's true. So I think we've got a great plan going forward. So we also did a kind of a test this year, we had our first kind of coming out party.

Kris Parsons16:01

Yes, that was fun. We actually got an in-person event which we were very safe and careful. But it felt really good to get about what maybe 20 people together, I think.

Ray Loewe16:11

Yeah, so tell us about it because you did all the work putting it together.

Kris Parsons16:15

Yeah, it was great. Well, one of our people that we interviewed in 2021 was Jeff Lincoln of the Passero's coffee in Philadelphia. And he went through a real change because he has several stores in the Philadelphia region. And like every other city in the United States that closed down, and he had to pivot and figure out what to do. And he always had a plan. His plan as we go back to that was to strengthen his online business, sell more coffee online, get some more memberships going. And also to he has this great little package, it's a coffee adventure, where literally, you can send your loved ones or your friends a coffee package. And then you can get him to do a virtual kind of conference with everybody and you kind of do a coffee tasting. And so that was really fun, what he worked on in 2021. And then what we did is we got a couple of people together to go to his warehouse where he actually brews his coffee and his roastery. What did he name his roastery? What was her name? Lulu or something. He had a name for it. It was great. But we got a wonderful tour of this roastery in the heart of Philadelphia, really a lovely place. And we learned so much about coffee, all about the difference between organic coffee and non-organic and how you brew it and what you look for in the taste. We even learned that cream and sugar in your coffee were never for flavor. It was because they ration coffee during World War II. That's how

Ray Loewe17:46

It was so bad. 

Kris Parsons17:48

Yeah, that was so bad, right? Because they had to weaken it and ration it.

Ray Loewe17:53

Oh, we learned we learned a lot about coffee. But we also learned we can actually have a coming-out party. Okay,

Kris Parsons17:59

right, cuz it was fun. And it was great to see everybody. And it was great to get everybody interacting. And even though the virtual stuff is really fun. And I think I still feel good about it. It still does not replace standing next to somebody talking one on one. It doesn't replace that. And we can't lose that because that is important.

Ray Loewe18:21

And nobody got sick. Nobody got sick. Because we use some precautions we were careful about we did and we're able to get back out. So what are we going to do next year? Well, we're going to try and have a little bigger one. Now we're going to plan something. More people. Yeah, we don't have the date yet. But I'm going to get a whole bunch of people to my new home in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, where I'm finding this as an exciting little city and I'm anxious to share it with other people. And we'll be announcing the date of when we're going to do that. And obviously, we're taking precautions. You know there's a chance if this stuff goes wild, we may postpone it for a while. But the whole idea is we're ready to get back out. Do it carefully do it consciously. But I missed people.

Kris Parsons19:16

Yeah, yeah. There's also another big thing coming next year, right. You've been and I've been working on it for months now. What's the exciting news for the new year?

Ray Loewe19:28

A book you mean? Yes, your book. Okay, so hopefully, mid-March, early April, we'll be coming out with a new book and amply called changing the rules, by the way. And we're going to be talking about people and how they change the rules and live life in a better way. We have a whole bunch of stories that are coming out of a podcast that we're doing, and we actually have how to do it set of worksheets in there so that you can get your thinking in gear. And we talk a lot about the mindsets of the luckiest people in the world. And let me just give you two or three real quickly because I think that they're leading us to where our podcasts are going to go. So the luckiest people in the world follow what's fascinating and motivating to them. They don't get caught in traps. And we're seeing people now all of a sudden leaving jobs where they've been established because it's no longer fascinating and motivating. And it's time to get out and make changes. We're talking about people who know what they want. Now, knowing what you want is very, very difficult to do. But there's a process for it.

Kris Parsons20:46

That's in the book Yeah, kind of help people because we can't assume everybody has a plan. But this book really helps people take the step, just like a fitness plan, you start small with different exercises, we have like mental exercises to help you figure out what your plan might be, you might always have had a plan, but you were never were able to articulate it. And this book will help you we help

Ray Loewe21:07

You know, and one of the biggest ones and we're going to spend some time on it next year because I now have a great source of new people to talk to. But we're going to talk about how the luckiest people in the world stop worrying about aging and concentrate on living. That's great. And, uh, you know, that whole mindset of not thinking about getting older, you don't dwell on what you can't do anymore you dwell on what you can do and how you can do it, great. And it's exciting. So I think I think we've got a great um series coming up, we have the process of a new virtual or not virtual but a live friends conference, we have a book it's going to lay out the mindset of the luckiest people in the world and how they use them. It's a storybook, and or workbook. And we're going to meet a whole lot of new people. And we're going to bring back some of the older people who we wrote about in this book, to find out what's changing in their lives, and how they're coping with the change. And we all know that things are going to change. And we all know that when things change, we have to change the rules in our favor, to make sure that we stay with it all.

Kris Parsons22:28

And you have to almost you also have to kind of get over any fear of change. Because I think that that's what keeps a lot of people in quicksand, they're afraid to change. You know, if the status quo is comfortable, they like well, everything's fine, but change every time you make a change in the positive direction, it just enhances your life. And what's that phrase, I've heard that many times, you better get busy living or get busy dying, you know, I mean, don't think about growing older, don't think about what you can't do think about what you can do. And you'd be surprised at how much things come out. And that's what we've learned with these people, we, we encourage you to come and listen to the podcast, it's very easy it's long but put it in your saves things theluckiestpeopleintheworld.com. Lots it's a mouthful. But once you get it in your computer, you can always go back to it and listen to the episodes. When you're, you know, during the holidays, you have a couple of days off when you're taking your walk put on your headphones and iPods and listen to it. It's these stories are fascinating. And I guarantee you you will find a kernel of something that relates to you.

Ray Loewe23:36

Is that a colonel in the Army or the Navy, or kernel of corn?

Kris Parsons23:42

I sit and watch TV with the popcorn kernel.

Ray Loewe23:44

Okay, so So anyway, that's kind of a recap of where we've gone. And I don't know about everybody else. But I've been asked a number of times why I put forth the effort to interview people and talk to people and do the podcast. And it's because it's incredibly fascinating and incredibly motivating to do this. And one of the things that I encourage everybody else to do is get out there and find those stories that are surrounding you. And find a way to get them out. And the easiest way is telling the story. John, what's your story? Whatever it is, and you'll be amazed at how people are sharing with you. And you'll be amazed at the gems of wisdom and they're exciting and they're motivating. And you wake up the next morning excited about life. So that's what we're all about. 

Kris Parsons24:38

More positive than saying tell me what you heard on the news last night.

Ray Loewe24:42

Yeah, we don't want to go there, these days do we. So anyway, we're gonna, we're gonna sign off until next year. We'll see you in January. And with an exciting podcast and we already have it laid out. We've got some great people coming in next year. exciting stories. New Events, a book, how to do this to help you put this together and make sure you listen because the people we interview are telling you how they did it and what they did. And I guarantee it will be fascinating and motivating. So Taylor, thanks so much, Kris Parsons. Thanks for being with us, and all of our people that are listening. Thanks again for supporting us the way you did. Yep. 

Kris Parsons25:27

And have a happy and safe holiday. Thank you for listening to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life and how you can figure out how to do that too. Join us with your lively host Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Podcast Guest:  Paula Adler

Paula's website:  https://www.paulaadlercoaching.com/

Transcription:

Kris Parsons00:01

Welcome to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life and how you can figure out how to do it too. Join us with your life, the host Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Ray Loewe00:21

Good morning, everybody. And welcome to another exciting episode of changing the rules. And we have a great guest today, a great guest who has been successful all of her life, and then found out that even in a successful format, there was time to make a change, because it was time to make a change. We'll hear all about Paula Adler's story.  I can't talk this morning. So let me remind you, first of all, that changing the rules, it is about the fact that all through our lives, we get rules thrown at us, they're thrown at us first by our parents, then is our schools, our church, our employers, you know, everybody has a set of rules that they want us to obey. And all of these rules are given to us. Because they're good at a time, you know, they serve a need and, and they offer us direction and stability and, and a way to make decisions. But one of the problems with living life under somebody else's rules is that eventually, you're living your life. And it's not yours, it's somebody else's life. And in order to live your own life and build your own life, you have to be able to look at rules in a positive way, you have to be able to change them, you have to be able to find out for you what's really right for you. And every week we interview another one of the luckiest people in the world. And the luckiest people in the world. Let me remind you are people who take control of their lives. They personally design them to fit their needs and their wants. And then they live them to the fullest under their own terms. So Paula Adler, welcome to changing the rules.

Paula Adler02:15

Thank you for having me. And every time you say living life on your own terms, I also have heard you say tailor the rules. And that's the way I like to think about it. Thank you for having me. I'm so thrilled to be here, Ray. 

Ray Loewe02:25

Well, I'm excited because you're again, another one of the perfect role models. And so you and I have something in common. And if we go back far enough, I have to go back a lot further than you.  We both worked for a firm called Price Waterhouse Coopers. And only when I was there, it wasn't Price Waterhouse Coopers it was Lybrand and Ross brothers in Montgomery. So I was there in the dark ages. But it was a great firm. For me, it served a really important need for me. But I came to a time when it was time for me to move on. So tell us a little bit about well, you know, before we get there you're not only a successful business lady, but you're a mom. Yeah, Tell us a little bit about who you are.

Paula Adler03:14

Yeah, I can. I uh, I have gotten very comfortable talking about that, because I encourage my clients to do the same. So thank you again for having me. So lets I always start with family. I am the mother of two amazing sons who live in New York City, ones in grad school right now. And one is an architect in New York who's getting married next year. So that is the thing that draws me the most my most proud. I don't want to say an accomplishment, because it's their accomplishment. But family is just really key to me. And so that's family. And so from a career perspective, I'll look at it in two pieces of my life, I am now a former never thought I'd say that managing director at one of the big four audit tax and consulting firms. You named it, it was Coopers and Lybrand, for me and then PWC. I spent over 33 years there in a variety of roles. I had a wonderful career primarily in the consulting practice and my roles crossed over human capital. I was in a strategy operations person, and then I spent my last, I guess, probably more than 10 years, I think it was 15 years in risk management, and had an amazing career. I would say other than my very first role for Coopers and Lybrand, pretty much every role that I had was one that was created. And so that was amazing. So the former managing director is the case today now and I smile every time I get to say this. I am a solopreneur. I'm a life and leadership coach. I own Paula Adler Coaching and Consulting and I market to women. My clients are men and women, but I market to women. My mission is to work with ambitious, outwardly successful women who have an inner knowing that there's more to life than the way they're currently living and here parenthetically I will say that was my story. So I work with my clients to create a vision for how they want their life to look, even if they feel like it's impossible, which is how I felt at the time. We gain clarity on what's standing in the way. And then we work on clearing the past so they can live a life and career that brings joy and where they feel valued and a sense of satisfaction without burning out in the process. So that's, that's who I am.

Ray Loewe05:24

Okay, so let's go back a little bit because obviously, you were very successful. You had the titles. You had the money. Okay, you add excitement in a career. Okay. You had prestige? And probably a lot more than that, but But what are the things that caused you to say, Okay, I need to make changes.

Paula Adler05:49

Yeah, I'm happy to share that. And, yeah, happy to share it. So how can I start with that a little history of what led up to my change, and then we can talk about the change itself. So as I said, I really had an amazing career, I spent the better part of my career in professional services, and I was operating in a really high pressure, high demand work environment, and I am a high performer, you know, and that's what I was always. And so I always strove to excel in every area of my life at home, with my kids, as a parent to, you know, my two amazing sons and then professionally, I say this humbly, I've got two CPA licenses, I spent over 33 years with my firm, I had outstanding roles, I valued my promotions and desirable income, as you said, and at the time, and today, I say this too, I describe myself as ambitious. I was definitely driven. I hopefully I was successful, I was really devoted to what I did, determined and resilient. So where things started to change for me is even though I long respected and appreciated my firm in my roles, it was often really hard to leave them at the door when I came home. And something I'm I want to share freely is I also walked the tightrope, tightrope of unexpected single parenthood, and then ultimately caring for my aging parents one right after the other. And so with all those things going on all those balls in the air, I was often left feeling, I really felt inadequate, I was juggling so many balls in the air that I felt like I kept dropping them all the time. And so what started to happen is, even though I described myself as I did, I also felt, I felt overwhelmed. I felt overworked, I felt anxious, I was stressed all the time, and I felt really stuck. You know, I look at it today. And with all those things happening. I know today that it's really that struggle, you know, the struggle that was inherent in that journey that I took, that has really most influenced where I am today. All those challenges that I went through it really they really prepared me and positioned me for what I'm doing today as a life and leadership coach. So I really do, I can still feel I understand what it means like the days are passing you by. And I felt like I was living every moment in a tunnel of responsibility. From the moment I woke up to the moment I went to sleep, I had trouble setting boundaries. So I really know the toll that an inability to set boundaries can have on someone. And I also got to a point where I had a desire to make a change. I did not know what it was, but I felt paralyzed by fear. And so you know, I know that experience of being fearful of making a change. What I did learn ultimately, is that with the right support, it's really possible to walk through your challenges. And so that was the history of what led up to me considering a change.

Ray Loewe08:40

You know, I see a lot of that going on, at least in thought today. So we're getting a lot of people that because of this COVID experience that we've had being home, all of a sudden have said, I don't want to go back to the office anymore. I kind of like the fact that I can spend some time with my children. I kind of liked that, I can get up in the morning and you know, dress up from the waist up and do a zoom call and not have to worry about things. So what are the reasons? Excuse me, I guess that are going to cause people to make changes like this. And then how do you get this unstuck? You put on your website? A bunch of one-word kinds of things. So let me go through them real quickly. Actually, there are two sets. One of them was positive, driven, successful, responsible, giving, devoted, resilient, and determined. Yeah, there's another set that we'll hold back for later. But I think those are the things that describe you. I think they describe a lot of the people that you're working with now. But how does somebody that's there all of a sudden deal with this impetus to change it? Make it happen?

Paula Adler10:01

Yeah, yeah, I was that person for some years. And I remember just not even knowing where to turn and how to take a step. And I think I ultimately learned, you know, I'm a, I'm a producer, I'll say I was tied to outcomes, I was looked at by PwC, as someone to drive projects and get to a conclusion, and then drive the next project. And I could do that with my eyes closed. But I couldn't figure out how to do that with my own life. I just as I said, I felt stuck and paralyzed. And I have great appreciation for having worked at PWC. It was my home. But I think people get to the point as I did and this speaks for the clients that I have today. Sometimes it's just one thing that drives it, they get to a point in something they read someone they talk to, they just get to a point and want to put a foot in the door and just say, I've got to make a change. I don't know what it is, which is a lot of the clients that I work with some come with goals, some come with, I don't know what it is, I'm feeling stuck. I don't want to live like this anymore. They also have a great appreciation for where they are. But they know they need to change because that like me, they would watch every day go by and one year goes by and the next year goes by, and they might not have even been focusing on their values or living their life joyfully. They just these are my clients today, they are middle to high-level leaders in organizations who get to a point and COVID Absolutely has driven some of them more quickly than others to say I don't know what it is, I need to make a change, and I need some help. And that's what happened to me, I got to a point where I just said, I know I've got to do something. I can't do it myself. And that's when I started to look for a coach.

Ray Loewe11:47

Okay, so there's another list on your website. I love reading your website over here. So let me go through this list. Because this I think describes a lot of the clients that you're looking for now and a lot of the people that are upset so we have overworked. Overwhelmed, anxious, inadequate. I want to go back to that one. Guilty. I want to spend a little time on that one. Stressed and lost.

Paula Adler12:16

Yeah. All the above? Yeah.

Ray Loewe12:20

So so how do you deal with this? I mean, because here you are, you're making good money. And all of a sudden, you're looking at a change that might take you into no money, less money. Let's say no money, you got to support a family. You know you got to deal with this. And how do you deal with this feeling of inadequacy and especially the feeling of guilt? Yeah, you're back on. 

Paula Adler12:46

Yeah, thank you so much. I all the above at different points of my tenure and throw single parent unexpected single parenthood in there. And, and then my, my dad, and then my mom aging who needed some help. It was just overwhelming. And I didn't know, I didn't know I got to a point. I didn't know what to do. But I knew I had to take a step. And so that for me that happened first in about 2017 where I started thinking about, Okay, I've got to make a change. I don't know what it is. And then I think I got thrust back into things. My mom fell, she broke her hip, I was in the middle of some acquisitions at work. But that's where the thought process started. And, and my clients and similar to me sometimes sit on that for a while. I think if somebody had said to me, Hey, I'm here to help you, I might have put my arms up in the air, I just felt like I couldn't get through my day and add anything else to it. So I think that percolated for a little bit for me for a couple years. And it was from 2000 to 2019, where I just kept feeling that need. And all of those adjectives you described about taking making a change about the I'll I can talk about later, the coaching I had in order to move through my decision to resign from the firm because I had a lot of guilt with that. But I did get to a point in 2019. And I just said enough is enough. And I don't know what I want to do. So I just decided the way I look at it as I put a foot in the door of my life. And I decided I was going to make a change. I didn't know where it would lead. Although I didn't feel this way at the time. I look back now and I say that it was really okay. That I didn't know. It's really about trusting the process. So I made a decision to take one step at a time.

Ray Loewe14:28

So you're a gutsy lady, Paula, how's that? 

Paula Adler14:31

Well, I think I reached a limit, Ray? Yeah, I don't know. Maybe I'm looking at it now as gutsy but back then it was just like survival. Again, so much love for my firm and I had so many amazing experiences but I felt like me as a person that I wasn't developing learning a lot but wasn't developing. So I took one step. As a start. As I always say to my client's real change and during change happens one step at a time. And I decided to enroll in a Life and Leadership potentials course, just by the title in the description it drew me, I didn't know where it was going to go ultimately was part of a coach certification program that was run by AIPAC, the Institute for professional excellence and coaching, where I ultimately got my coaching certification. I had no desire at the time to leave my firm, my objective was really put a foot in the door of my life and determine what was important to me, I didn't even know it was important to me. I got into that there's three-module program over the course of the year. And I got into that program and got two-thirds through the coach training program, again, doing this for myself, and to be a better leader at PwC. A better coach, I got two-thirds through the program, and I walked out that second module, and all of a sudden, like, boom, something hit me, I started thinking about my history in the firm and in my life and thinking about all the roles that I had in human capital and strategy and operations and risk management and two themes, just boom to the top for me, they just rose right up, then one was developing strong relationships. And the other one was coaching. So across all of my roles that I had, developing strong relationships was so key to me, I ran a risk workstream around acquisitions. And when we acquired a company, the leaders coming into our PwC, rather large firm, I develop relationships with them. With any project that I did, I develop relationships across the US and Mexico globally, relationships have always been important to me, and they always will be. So relationships was a focus for me and coaching. And whether it was formal coaching at PwC, where I was assigned as the coach, or informal coaching, or even coaching our leaders, those two things rose to the top. And I at that point said, Wait, something's coming up for me here. And I feel like I'm starting to think about my purpose and mission. And I decided it was time to hire a coach and explore what was coming up.

Ray Loewe16:58

Okay, so you hired a coach? I did. You did. Do you still have a coach?

Paula Adler17:03

God bless her. Yes, I still have the same coach. Yeah. God bless her for her patience. Yeah

Ray Loewe17:07

Actually, you and I agree on something. I mean, I am a incredible believer in the value that coaches bring to the table. And they're all different, and they're different at different times. But I have been in coaching programs over probably the last 25 years, in various ways. And there's just a tremendous value in helping you get a handle on things. So let's talk for a minute about how your coach helped you get a grip on this. And then we're going to go into how you as a coach can help people ease this transition if they have this anxiety and guilt, and inadequate feelings on all of these things and help them get a handle on things.

Paula Adler17:51

Yeah, absolutely. And one thing for me, and I see it with my clients as well, you really need to be ready to do the work. And there are points in my career that I knew I needed to change, but I just wasn't ready to move forward. And that distinguished for me when I hit that point in 2017. And 2019. I was ready. I just reached a point of saying, and it wasn't one thing like that was the tip. The it wasn't anything that tipped the scales. It was just I got to a point where I said, I'm ready. I have one client who's a senior exec in a large financial services institution. She was on LinkedIn one day, she happened to see a post that I did. She looked at that post and booked into my calendar. And she had been thinking for a while I need to do something it was for her that one messaging that happened for me, I just got to a point and I just said, I'm watching life pass me by I don't know where to go. And I need to take a step. So I think you have to be ready for coaching. I had at that time when I went through the AIPAC program. And I reached that point two-thirds through the program where I just felt like what was rising to the top for me was that whole focus on relationships and coaching. That was the point at which I decided I felt like I had something to explore. And so I hired a coach who very much resonated with me, I saw a video of her and it just I knew I go with my intuition. And so I had, I had an inner knowing at the time as the way I'll put it that it was time for me, as you say, to tailor the rules, to be able to take my life in a different direction. And so with her help, and as I say thank goodness for her never-ending patiences then and today. We really dug in and explored and I had never looked at my values before. Looking at my values. What were my core values? I didn't have time for that. Like I just went to work, you know, and raise my kids and care for my parents. So we really talked about purpose and mission. I could do that strategically at work anytime. But it as it related to myself. I really never spent the time doing that. So we dug in we talked about purpose and mission. As I said relationships and coaching were the theme for me. We explored my core values, one of my core values today is joy, the top value is joy. And I had not thought about that before. So we looked at my core values and, and then I decided to start making some shifts and exploring. We also looked at all the inner blocks that were coming up for me and keeping me from stepping into my fears to make a shift. In my career in my life, I had a lot of guilt about leaving PwC as I said, I had a great career wasn't really running from something. But I was looking to run to a life that I felt I wanted to step into. So that's what happened to me. So about six months after working with my coach, I made the decision to leave the firm, to become a I say, a solopreneur and establish myself as a life and leadership coach. And when I finally spoke to I was a managing director, I spoke to the partner whose team I was on. I wrote a love letter to PwC about what my experience was, but I had a knowing that it was time for me to do something else. So that's how I got to the decision about leaving and establishing my own business.

Ray Loewe21:03

Okay, so let's do two things here. First of all, let's let's give your website right now where people can reach you and explore coaching if they feel they need this. And we'll put this in our podcast notes so that people be able to find this in writing and linked to you, so ahead. 

Paula Adler21:25

Yeah, my website is Paula Adler coaching.com. Paula with an A at the end and Adler with a at the beginning. So today's together so Paula Adler coaching.com. One word,

Ray Loewe21:38

Paula Adler

Paula Adler21:40

Adler coaching.com

Ray Loewe21:45

Okay, now Now, when you're looking for a coach, I mean, not every coach fits every person. And one of the things that you said in your comments here was that intuition drove you you just knew this was the right person. What were those things that that you would suggest to people when they're looking for a coach? How do they siphon through that and find people, because it is a very individualized thing is not?

Paula Adler22:11

Absolutely individualized. Yeah, and what I would, and I do say this to people who come my way, I suggest they speak to multiple people. As it turned out for me, I spoke to one person and I knew, I just really knew, I think I was watching her from afar. And what she said just resonated for me. So I had this inner knowing you know that she was the person that I was drawn to, but I do encourage people to speak with more than one person, get on, get on a call with that coach ask for their time I do what's called a discovery call with each person who reaches out to me. And I'm not tied to that outcome of where they go, I'm really I get on the call with them. And I advise people to do this, get on the call, talk about where you are now. Talk about where you'd like to be if you know, then talk about what's getting in your way. And then have a dialogue with that coach and see what feels right. I did those things well with my prospective coach at the time, and I knew that I wanted to work with her. When she and I first spoke, I wasn't ready to work. I was trying to figure out, I knew there were changes I wanted to make, I wasn't sure what they are. So it's not that you might sign up with somebody right away, you might need to work through some things first. So I knew after a few months that I was ready to make a change and I reached back out to her and story goes from there. So I'd say have a conversation be sure anyone you speak with gives you that time I call it a discovery call.

Ray Loewe23:35

Okay, so when you start with somebody, there's a discovery call. And that discovery call has to really get into what the issues are and to make sure that you feel comfortable with your coach. Is that correct?

Paula Adler23:48

Yeah, absolutely. I want to hear what's coming up for them. I certainly give a background but it's really all about that person. Where are they today? Where would they rather be if they know they don't always know, I didn't know. But I knew I wanted to make a change. I was at a point where I wanted to make a change. I didn't know what it was I wanted to explore. So make sure anyone you talk with as a coach gives you that time to hear you out and, and what's getting in the way of them taking things forward. And then after that, I share how I work with people in coaching. And then I really leave it up to them. Now I am not a high-pressure salesperson at all. I appreciated the fact that when I spoke to my what was my prospective coach at the time that she was not at all she got it she heard me say I'm not sure yet. And I knew a few months later that it was time to work with a coach. So I think you want to also find someone who is not going to try to push you into a corner to sell you a coaching package at the end that they're there to listen to you. And when you're ready, you're ready.

Ray Loewe24:48

Now we're unfortunately we're getting near the end of our time here and what I wanted you to do is to once you determine that the coach is right in other words once I decide that you're for me. Okay. What are you gonna do for me? Is there a process that you go through? Give us a quick idea of what happens.

Paula Adler25:09

How it is to work with me? You mean with me? yeah.

Ray Loewe25:13

what do we just sit and have conversations? Are there exercises that we do we, what, what are some of the things we do? Yeah, absolutely

Paula Adler25:21

Yeah, absolutely, I tailor my program to each of my prospective clients. So the first thing I do is a discovery call. And we talk about, as I said, where they are today, where they'd rather be if they know they most often don't know and what they think they need to address or resolve to move forward. So make sure a coach, whoever you may work with gives you that time, without pressure. What I do right now is I'll say a six-month program where we meet bi-weekly, people really need the time in between the calls, coaching happens on and off the call, I can remember having calls with my coach, and then we're I live near the Delaware canal, walking in the canal and just having things come up for me. So I do bi-weekly calls over a six-month period, and I tailor it to that person, we start out with an energy leadership assessment, I won't go into the details here. But it's really to try to understand where that person is right now and what's coming up for them and what's getting in their way. And I also do a values assessment with them. And then from there, we tailor specific program to them, we meet bi-weekly, we talk about the goal they have for the session, why it's important to them. What could get in their way, and then we go from there. Often, what a client does is brings a certain issue to the table and we find out as we're working with each other that other things are getting in the way that we work on. And so yeah, that's how I work with clients.

Ray Loewe26:49

I think the biggest thing that I'm gathering from this conversation is that it requires a commitment to make changes. And that commitment means that you have to be willing to put some time into this thing, otherwise nothing's gonna happen.

Paula Adler27:03

Absolutely. Yeah, I held off looking for a coach, there were times in my life where I knew I needed support. I just didn't know what it was. And somebody approached me without I probably would have put my arms up and just said, I'm not ready. It does require commitment to dig in and do the work and be ready to move forward. Yeah, and so I with a client over six months.

Ray Loewe27:25

Okay, so since we're at the end, and there's no question that you're one of the luckiest people in the world because when you look at your career, you started successfully. There was no reason you had to change from you know, everybody else in the world would have looked at you and said, Wow, Paula has got it all together. But there was something in you that wasn't all together, right? And so you made the change, and being able to make that change, and redesign your life is what makes you truly one of the luckiest people in the world. So, welcome to the call.

Paula Adler27:59

Thank you so much, life offers so many opportunities. We just have to know which door to open and close. 

Ray Loewe28:05

Yeah, why don't you? Is there one thing that you can give as a piece of advice to people who are thinking about this process? Before we sign off?

Paula Adler28:13

Yeah, and it's something I look up I have, I have it right on my monitor here. So it's actually a Ralph Waldo Emerson quote that I look at every day. That is the task ahead of you is never as great as the power behind you. And that's where I start with my clients. I really focus with my clients on what they bring to the table and how they could move forward. And yeah, as I said, life offers you so many doors, you just have to know which one to open and which one to close.

Ray Loewe28:41

Well, great. Well, Paula, thanks for sharing your wisdom with our listeners. And we'll have to have you back at some point in time do a sequel to this call and find out how many millions of people you've helped on escape. Okay. And, again, it's Paula Adler coaching.com. Is that correct? Exactly. Right. Yeah. And, you know, just have a great day. And thanks again for sharing your wisdom with everybody.

Paula Adler29:09

Thank you for having me Ray and thanks to Rebecca for introducing us.

Kris Parsons29:14

We'll get back to thank you for listening to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life and how you can figure out how to do that too. Join us with your lively host Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world. 

Guest Co-host:  Marc Bernstein:  [email protected]

Podcast Guest:  Marina Kats:  [email protected]

Marina's Website:  https://phillylawyers.com/

Transcription:

Kris Parsons00:03

Welcome to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life and how you can figure out how to do it too. Join us with your lively host Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Ray Loewe00:22

Good morning, everybody and welcome to changing the rules. And today we have two guests with us. We have Marc Bernstein who you met last week and Marc is acting as our co-host today. And he and I are going to interview a wonderful guest Marina Kats and, we'll give you more details in a minute. But Marina is very definitely one of the luckiest people in the world as you're gonna see. Okay, she has control of her life. She makes it do what she wants it to do and she makes it go where she wants it to go and, and the luckiest people in the world are those people that design their own lives and then live them to the fullest. And Marina, welcome to changing the rules. And Marc, welcome to changing the rules. And Marc, why don't you lead off by introducing Marina. 

Marc Bernstein01:13

Ray, I've had the opportunity to get to know Marina Kats over a long period of time. And she is one of the most amazing people I know. She's if she's going to tell her story a little bit of where she came from and how she built up her law practice and our other entrepreneurial activities, as well. As you know, she's got a lot of other interests philanthropically, and she's raised two great daughters. We'll talk a little bit about that. And so she is we've determined in our talks prior to this one of the luckiest people in the world. So Marina, meet Ray Loewe, who is the luckiest guy in the world. I'm up there somewhere, but I'm not quite at Ray's level,

Ray Loewe01:51

because he's. Why is your way up there Marc? Let me interrupt and ask a quick question. Because to start this, one of the most impressive things, I had a chance to read your resume and everything. But what I found out that you came here at age 18, from the Ukraine. Did you speak English at the time? Not at all? No English at the time. Okay. So let's start there a little bit, and how does one come into a new country and start over and then we'll get into all this stuff, and Marc, you can take over again?

Marina Kats02:27

Well, we could go back to the title of your program, the luckiest people, or we could analyze where does the luck come from, as we know luck is 99% perspiration, 1% inspiration. So we also know that, you know, luck doesn't come by itself. And the harder you work the luckier you get. So I don't want the radio listeners or podcast listeners to think that somehow you go outside and you say, God, send me luck. It happens. And all of a sudden, you become the lucky person. I don't know anybody who were able to survive purely on somehow indication of luck. So when I came to United States, I, by the way, turn 18 in refugee camps in Italy. And I didn't speak the word of English. And we came here legally waiting through the whole process. So I went to probably 12 to 14 hours a day studying English for the first two weeks, when I went to college, I still said in the classroom was a dictionary, because I couldn't understand most of the things the teacher was saying, and I took most of the science courses because the formula the same didn't matter whether it was in English, or in Russian, or in Latin. So all those things came into play. One of the things I want to tell your radio listeners and podcast listeners is working hard does pay off. 

Ray Loewe04:05

Cool. Go ahead Marc, you had a question on your lips.

Marc Bernstein04:10

Yeah, so why several so I'm trying to think which one first? So Marina, the science thing I'm interested in, do you have it? Did you have an interest in science? Or you just did that? Because you could you could translate it better? 

Marina Kats04:25

Um, well, I was always good at science. I didn't have particular interest in science, but I was going to be a doctor. I really was not going to be a lawyer. And I always had a calling for the medicine. And indirectly, I guess, when I became a lawyer, my focus was on personal injury, which obviously a lot of things involved was medicine. So I still can see myself as a doctor without license. I love to diagnose so I do have inclination for it and I have a good six sense in some ways for people who are not feeling well, and I have a compassion. So that was my interest. And the only reason I did not become a doctor is because when you were 18-19, you have this idealistic ideas about, you know, animals and taking experiments on animals. And I remember being at the university and having it was biology one or two, I think, or biology one or one, I don't remember which biology course it was. But you had to dissect the kitten in process, and I was like, I am not dissecting the kitten. And it just not something that I could possibly do. In a heart of hearts. Of course, knowing then what I know now, I would have done that, obviously, but I didn't, then I there was, I was lucky enough, it's very early in the semester. And I said, Well, I probably have to drop that course. And I'm going to add some other course. And that's how I decided that I'm going to go to law school. Some sometimes things happen serendipitously. And I was lucky enough to have a really very, very good professors. That got me very quickly interested in pre-law. And I felt that you know, with the calling to help people, you can help people get better health-wise, or you can serve some kind of equalizer in the world to make sure that people are treated fairly in this world. So I ended up with law profession, which I have no regrets, very happy doing.

Marc Bernstein06:40

So you were a Temple University undergraduate.

Marina Kats06:43

Actually, I came to full circle at Temple University. I was an undergrad at Temple University. I went to law school at Temple University. I have my LLM in trial advocacy, which is like Ph.D. in law. There is only less than 1% of the lawyers that have that degree from Temple University. And if I can make another plug for Temple University, I'm a trustee now for Temple University. So I kid you not I do believe Temple right? Yes,

Marc Bernstein07:12

I was going to bring that up to the boy your journey at Temple house. I started there. I only made it through one year before I went to three other universities. But that's another story for another day. So but go owls.

Marina Kats07:26

See in your world, and most people world, they could go to University of their choosing. And they could go away from home and live in the dorms. When I went to Temple I worked two jobs. And my parents would in no way allow me to live in a dormitory. They said the only way you could leave home is if you marry that's why I got married very young. I got married after my first year of college. Because this otherwise I would have to stay home and live with my parents. And that was the way to get out of the house.

Marc Bernstein08:07

Something I didn't know. That's interesting. So tell me about let's jump ahead to  you were married. And now you start a law practice. Tell us how that came about?

Marina Kats08:16

Well, I'm actually before starting the law practice, I worked for the law firm. And I realized that I want a different way of practicing law. And it's actually very rarely that you will see a law firm that works the way we do. Because we are different. We are not task-oriented. We are client-centric. And that's what I wanted to do. The biggest thing, especially with the ethnic communities, they don't know where to go, where you Ray, might have cousin, brother, cousin, friend, as a lawyer, as a lot of people who are newcomers to America don't even know a lawyer don't know where to find the lawyer. So if you become a task-oriented, the client has to switch for many different law firm because the clients have different needs. So today the client has an issue with a traffic ticket. Tomorrow the client has an issue with the marriage, then after tomorrow the client has an issue with buying the house day after tomorrow, the client was involved in a car accident whatever the issues are. For the firms who are task-oriented. They have to refer the client to somebody else. And in the process, they have to learn the whole new set of people go to the different location, acclimate themselves introduce themselves all over again. In my case, I've collected or I was lucky enough to hire a different attorneys who practicing different discipline. So you If you need issue was real estate, you go see Fabian, in my office, if you have an issue was family law, you go and see Stan in my office, if you have an issue with a personal injury, come see me in my office and so forth. So we have a group of lawyers that basically can assist with most of the basic needs of the individual. And it's there's a continuum in the process. And as bad as a Soviet system is, in the Soviet system, there was one, there's two good things was in the Soviet system, actually, education was a big plus. And the reason why I'm saying I'm deeply involved in the educational process, is I do believe that there should be consistency in education. So somebody who went to Temple University, and took a history course, and somebody who went to University of Delaware and took a history course, and somebody who went to University of Pennsylvania took a history course, should learn on the same books. So this way, when they get together, and they talk about history, they have a similar understanding. And if you want to learn something else as your extra-curriculum, by all means, and you can also select what history you want to learn. But the books should be the same. And the same thing should be, especially for high school, I think what happens with high schools, middle school, whatever you're addressing issue is education. Is if you go to school, a your teacher will teach you a history from one book, you go to school B, it's from different books, and then when the exams comes, you know, SATS, or whatever the exam that the child has to take. different schools have different advantages. And that's not a good thing. So even for cocktail party conversations, it's not a good thing. People should be educated. I am a big, big proponent of what Columbia University, for example, does core curriculum, you know, you have to raise an educated individuals, you cannot have a child that goes to college for four years, and not take a basic maths, or you cannot have a child and goes through college for four years and not take history. So I think there should be individual choices, but there should be a basic curriculum that the students are involved in.

Marc Bernstein12:47

That's a great idea, Marina, I just want to mention, she did her homework, she mentioned the University of Delaware, which was my school, University of Pennsylvania was Ray's school, so you did your homework.

Marina Kats12:59

But think about it, if you get together and for whatever reason, you guys saved your books that you've learned in schools. And, you know, Ray's gonna say, Oh, what is that? And you're gonna say, what is it even though it's two completely different books, it cannot be that.

Ray Loewe13:21

Great, let's pull this back. I hate to interrupt. But unfortunately, we have limited time. What was the second thing that you said the Soviet system was so good about?

Marina Kats13:30

So it was not particularly great with health care, but it was good at delivering health care. And there's two different things about it. And I'll explain to you what I mean by the health care. And we're not talking about free or pay, believe me, in every aspect of the Soviet Union system. If you wanted to have a better care, you have to pay somebody, whether it's a doctor directly, whether it's a bribe, wherever it was, even though the healthcare system was free, but what was good about the system is they had what's called polyclinics, which has every neighborhood had one and what it meant is if you have a health issue, you go into this polyclinic, which is a building and you will go see your GP and the GP says, looks at you and says, sort of like an emergency room, but it was no more it was in a hospital setting. And your GP said, You know what, I see what your issue is, you have to see ear, nose, and throat doctor, he's in room three. So you go out of your GPS office, you go to room three, and there's gonna be a couple of chairs outside the rooms and people will be sitting in those chairs. You take the last chair and that ear, nose, and throat doctor has a sitting line, you know, like a queue and he sees anybody that queue so you don't have to make an appointment. Wait for two weeks to see ear, nose, and throat doctor travel somewhere else, you are able to see somebody there. And it was the same thing as virologist going into college or college, it didn't make any difference what specialty it was, they were all in the same building. So the person would be able to at least have some type of a diagnosis or some kind of a questions answer. There might not have been as advanced healthcare system as we have here, no question about it, we have the best and most sophisticated healthcare system. But you did not have to wait to see a doctor for two weeks or three weeks or, you know, was, you know, dermatology, endocrinology for a longer period of time. And you didn't have to go all over the city to find those doctors.

Ray Loewe15:54

Yeah so you build your law practice kind of like this, you know, you have one place for clients to go. And then you usually have the specialties within your practice.

Marina Kats16:04

Yeah basically Yeah, yeah, basically consider myself a traffic cop. Yeah, I'm trying to meet with everybody who comes to my door. I tried to sit down and triage, that's, you know, the better word for it. I guess it's triage the case, I sit down and I talk to the person, once I figure out what the issue there, I will ask another attorney from my office to come and join the meeting. And at that time, it becomes more narrow issue, and that attorney will handle the matter. So it makes it very, very easy for the clients. And I joke about it, I love, you know, old-fashioned movies. And I say to myself, I'm like a country bumpkin I like this whole idea that you know, you drive horse and buggy, you pull up by my door you walk in, and you're seen and whether you pay or you don't pay, it becomes very secondary, the practice of law becomes a primary thing we're going to use to build a great law practice. You've also had some other entrepreneurial activities, which you've had success at as well, you mind talking about that for a minute? Well, I actually own the radio station many, many years ago, I own the radio station. Some of your podcast listeners probably remember Jerry blooded. Guido was a heater boss was a hot sauce. So I used to on a 1540 AM station, which was a great endeavor was a very interesting place to be. And that's how you learn, I think it's a great thing is, and one of the things if you go back to the title of the show, Lucky. Lucky is also not to be afraid. I think it's very good to be entrepreneurial. It's a little bit more dangerous, but it's a lot more rewarding. I remember going to my daughter's Career Day. And she went to a very, very, very good school and there was a panel of five people, I think one was a president of a big public company. One was a partner and the big hedge fund. Two were all big companies, and they were talking about their careers. And then the turn came to me and I said, You know what, the best thing to do is not necessarily climb the corporate ladder. But the best thing to do is open up your business. And of course, it's a philosophy, would you prefer to be a small fish in a big pond or big fish in a small pond, and I kind of always prefer to eat what I kill and kill what I eat and never hold to anybody. So

Ray Loewe18:58

Spoken like a true lawyer, kill what I eat, I love it.

Marina Kats19:02

you know, it's just the way it is you're responsible for your own happiness. And again, title of your podcast is building your own luck. That's the only way to do it in my mind.

Ray Loewe19:15

But let me interrupt for a minute because we're getting near the end of our time, unfortunately. And, and I would like you to talk for a minute about where you're going. But before we go there. I know you've got tremendous credentials, right? A whole lot of boards, and if people want to find out about them, they can find them on your website. You're absolutely. And what's the website address.

Marina Kats19:37

So there's two websites, the best one is phillylawyers.com it's one word so it's easy to remember. They could Google me Marina Kats, so they'll know everything about me. And the firm name is Kats, Jamison, and Associates so they can also Google that you My uncle Google is always you know, we'll get you there. And they can always call us 215-396-9001. And speaking of the gimmick, my actually other gimmick as my 800 number, it's 800 law, what I practice 1917 is a Year of the Russian revolution. So it's 100 law 197 1-800-Law-1917 Nobody can ever forget it. Especially they came from the former Soviet Union countries.

Marc Bernstein20:34

So, yeah. And Marty Ray, Marina spells Kats K ATS. It's not the way people think.

Ray Loewe20:41

Yeah, like herding cats, right?

20:45

You know, when you go to the stores, and they ask you, you know, for your email or something, and you say, you know, I've got to go is that with a C, or with a K, I always say, I wish it was the C, but it's with a K.

Ray Loewe21:00

you know, Marc, chip and on this, but again, because we're running near the end of our time, so you've been tremendously successful. Marina, you started at 18, coming from another country, not speaking English, you got yourself through college, you got yourself a successful law firm, you're on the board of the school that you went to, and you're on a number of other boards. So you're active in a whole bunch of things. But where are you going to go in life? What what's important to you, and as one of the lucky people, I have a feeling you're going to design your own life to do more? What might those things be?

Marina Kats21:39

I will tell you the retirement is not in the cards, or at least not any cards anytime soon, I was talking to another very, very successful lawyer and he said, What else would I do to get as much enjoyment of doing what I'm doing. So obviously, the plan is to continue working, there is a great deal of enjoyment. And helping people especially in what I do personally, which is most of the time is personal injury. So you're basically able to give people obviously I can't get them their health back. That's not something, I always say to my clients, if I had the magic wand, I will try to get you back to your pre-accident condition. But I don't have that. So all I can do is make sure you're compensated for your injury. So going forward, your life is a little bit better. So that's, you know, a wonderful saying that what we do in my office, we change people lives on a daily basis, number one, number two, I think it's also fairness, you know, in my vocabulary, fairness and responsibility are two primary words. And I think the idea of being able to do a fairness meter in my life, is what keeps me happy at least. And I also, you know, when I meet with a client, I will give him an honest opinion, and I can afford, thank God because I'm successful, not to take the cases that I don't want to take and explain to the person why they shouldn't continue with the case. Because this is not the case that should be brought up. So that's a big plus in my life when I like some lawyers that really depend on each client's money for their livelihood. I do not. So that helps tremendously in being, I guess, you know, fair and being honest and being open and not worrying about tomorrow. You feel better today when you stop worrying about tomorrow.

Ray Loewe23:53

I think if you're under some great advice, and unfortunately, we're at the end of our time, Marc, do you have any closing comments, and we need to make them quick?

Marc Bernstein24:02

No, I mean, you said some great things. Marina, the only thing if you had one piece of advice for somebody that's struggling with where they're going, what would you say to them?

Marina Kats24:10

Work hard, and don't be afraid? It's great, great advise

Ray Loewe24:15

okay. And what a better, there's no better place to stop. So Marina, thanks for being one of the luckiest people in the world. Thanks for being here. And sharing with us, Marc thanks for introducing us to Marina. And we'll be back next week with another podcast and another one of the luckiest people in the world. So everybody, have a great week. And Taylor, sign us off.

Kris Parsons24:39

Thank you for listening to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life and how you can figure out how to do that too. Join us with your lively host Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Podcast Guest:  Marc Bernstein:  [email protected]

Transcription:

Kris Parsons00:00

Welcome to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life and how you can figure out how to do it too. Join us with your lively host Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Ray Loewe00:15

Good morning, everybody and uh welcome to our next uh Podcast. I'm not sure what episode it is. But we're getting up there near a 100 over here. And we have a great guest today as Marc Bernstein. And you've, you've met Marc before. And we're gonna talk about some new and other interesting things today. And you can go back to his old podcast if you need more details after we're there. But before we bring Marc on, let's talk for a minute about the purpose of our podcast and what we're trying to do. You know, all through my last, I guess, 25 years of being a financial advisor, I kind of studied a group of people that I thought were the luckiest people in the world. And I kept sitting there and saying, Why are these people? Why do they have an edge? Why do they seem to enjoy life more? Why do they seem to always be lucky? And it wasn't that they were lucky, they made their own luck. And I decided that I wanted to know more about this group. And actually, I wanted to join it if I could, because they seemed to just have a great life. And Marc Bernstein is one of these people today. And, uh, Marc has figured out how to make the rules work for him. You know, all through our lives, we're fed a batch of rules. They're given to us in high school our parents start us that church hits us with rules. Our jobs hit us with rules. And when you live your life by other people's rules, you're not living your own life. So Marc is one of those people that's figured out how to make those rules work for him, uh Marc is an attorney. He's a great financial advisor. He's doing exciting things with his clients and mapping out a place as to where he's going to go. And Marc, Good morning. Welcome to joining the changing the rules.

Marc Bernstein02:18

Good morning, Ray. Always a pleasure to be with you.

Ray Loewe02:22

Okay, so let's go back into history because we've had this on one of our other podcasts. But the event that I want to talk about is so could be so devastating to people's lives. And yet you took it and built something positive out of it. So long ago, in your early life om I think you had a fire involved, give us an example and tell us what was going on?

Marc Bernstein02:49

Sure. So it's my, it's in my book, it's called the fiscal therapy solution 1.0. And in writing that book, I realized what a formative event that was, I don't know that I knew it. At the time, but my father was in the greeting card business. He was a greeting card wholesaler. My brother is still in that business today. Although he sold the family business, he works for the company that he sold it to. And so he had we always worked in we call it the warehouse, there was always a warehouse that had, you know, inventory was cards and, you know, packaging and wrapping paper and things like that. So all perishable goods. And my father got a call one evening, I believe it was that the place was on fire. And I went with him to see the fire and it was pretty bad when we got there. Most of his inventory had been destroyed by fire, but what wasn't was getting destroyed by water and smoke, of course. So we're literally watching, you know, a business that he had built working seven days a week for most of my life. Um burned to the ground. And as we're talking, he said, You know, it's really been bothering me, but I really never updated my insurance I knew I should have, but this is going to be a problem. And he didn't have enough, you know, casualty coverage, and knew was going to be a challenge. And over the next few months were hard. He went from at one point, he just decided he was going to throw in the towel and he's going to take a job with one of the greeting card companies in Kansas City. Which is where a lot of them were in our I think so. And he, um, and I remember talking to him and said, you've always worked for yourself, you know, how's that going to be? And he said, Well, I think it's something I have to do and he was gonna move the family to Kansas City. I was a senior in high school at the time. And I had very important things in my plate. I had a rock and roll band. I had a girlfriend, and I was like I'm not going to Kansas City. So I don't know that and then we never really talked about it or not, but a few months later, um somewhere in there, his brother died as well. I remember being at the as my brother at my uncle's funeral, and we were walking around the block. And I remember him saying, This is what he was kind of really thinking about throwing in the towel. But the end result was he decided not to do that. He decided to rebuild the business, he upped his insurance, the but he was, you know, as well behind. So he basically had decided he knew what he had to do, he had to triple the size of the business. This is a 55 years old, or so. And he'd been working very hard his whole lifetime. And he made a decision that he was going to go back after it, expand his territory, grow it, so we could afford the losses and the increased overhead he was going to have because he had to move out of this building as well. So in hindsight, you know, I changed, I was supposed to go away to college this first year, I didn't go away to college, I stayed home for college. I, I you know, it later on, when I developed my sort of, I call it my fiscal therapy pyramid. You know, it's the kind of the hierarchy of needs, it starts with protection because I learned that, you know, that fire hurt our family, much, much worse than anything in the stock market could have done. So I realized that if you're going to have a good financial plan, it's got to be built on protection. And I say savings and debt, and growth and income, and then legacy. But, you know, when I started in the business that was all about what products do people need, you know, there's a lot of pressure to sort of sell people stuff. And I decided early on, I really needed to look at where their needs, we're kind of going through this hierarchy of needs before we kind of identify goals and identifying their vision for the future and all that before we go on. And that's what this fiscal therapy is about. And that fire, I think has had a really powerful influence on my definition of fiscal therapy and what that means.

Ray Loewe07:07

Yeah, so So what did you do? You came out of college and obviously, this event had a great impact on where you went with your life? Because what did you do? You went into the insurance business, right to start with?

Marc Bernstein07:19

Well, not really, not really, in fact, so that's why I think it wasn't really front and present in my mind. You know, my change in my life that happened over the next couple of years was present, but not really the impact of it. So I actually came out of undergraduate school as a music major and decided, if I couldn't be a rock and roll star, I didn't really want to be a teacher. So somewhere in law school, I had this, I remember in a romantic literature course, Professor Charles Robinson, something that he said about one of the romantic authors, and something that came out of one of the books just had me think outside the box of what I want to do. And I decided, I wanted to be an advocate for musicians in the form of an attorney, or an entertainment lawyer, which honestly was a pretty unheard-of field at that point. But I figured it must exist. And I went out and bought this book called this business of music, I found out there was actually a book about it, and I read it, and I said, that's what I'm going to do. So I went to law school, came out, worked for an entertainment attorney, that I was paid so little really was like slave labor that I had to play in a band to be able to afford my job, was paid $5 an hour and was a glorified receptionist. And the day I finally really did some real legal work, and I was supposed to meet with the clients. And he told me that, you know, I wasn't going to have that meeting that I need to watch his cats while he had the meeting, was the day I quit. That was my last day. So I kind of went through the school of hard knocks and, you know, knocked around in that business. That business, it was a really hard time in the businesses in the early 80s was a big recession. And people were getting fired left and right. And I saw sort of the underbelly of the business. And I thought, Well, I went to law school because I wanted to help people and maybe musicians aren't the only people I want to help after all, and because that's, you know, that's a tough lot to deal with on a daily basis as well. So I decided that you know, that, and actually, I have a brother that told me about this new burgeoning field of financial planning. And I, you know, pursued that, and as you know, Ray, because we knew each other back then it wasn't exactly a smooth road to financial planning because

Ray Loewe09:40

no, no, it was not.

Marc Bernstein09:41

And, and the and the company that I wanted to work for, I was just telling the story the other day, had started the insurance-based financial planning model, which I thought would be perfect for me given my interest in protection and all that and they would not hire me because they gave me a marketing test. And it was for a time I went to an interview for attorneys, but I was 28 years old or 29 years old. And they wanted me today with all my contacts, they wanted a 60-year-old attorney, they didn't want to a 29-year-old attorney. So they wouldn't hire me. They always looked at that as a boy that slowed down my career. But now I look back on it and say, that was the beginning of my luck, you know, that was a lucky thing because it forced me to figure out how I wanted to do things, what I really wanted to do, what was deficient in the places that I worked. And, you know, I was able to see my way through that. But I think you'll learn a lot more from your failures than you do from your successes. So that was actually they actually did me a big favor, and it worked out pretty well.

Ray Loewe10:45

Okay, give us a short version of what you then did, how you built your base business that allowed you to, you know, support your family and things like that. But I want to save some time to talk about where you're going. So uh make this on the short side?

Marc Bernstein11:02

Sure. Well, just basically, I grew up in a family business, and I was always interested in entrepreneurs. And also another thing where I think I was influenced not just a little diversion, but I ended up with a specialty with manufacturers, which I am now again pursuing. So we talked about the future, I can talk about that because I believe manufacturing, coming back to America, and in talking to a business owner yesterday, it kind of came out, I said, you know, I think one of the reasons I was always so interested in manufacturing, is because my father didn't, meaning that he was a wholesaler of cards, I was always very curious about who made the cards, I was an artist by background as well as a musician. So I was like, Who designs these things, you know, who comes up with the ideas who writes and, and that's all part of the manufacturing process of greeting cards. One of my earliest clients was a greeting card manufacturer that I knew through the family. And I worked with him for many years. And from there, I kind of moved on to other manufacturers, and I've just always loved the process of making things. So I decided early on, that my clients would be either entrepreneurs or entrepreneurial professionals, like coders, law firms, accounting firms, things like that, or medical practice firms. And that's pretty much what I've always done. So my challenge was how to best serve them. And over the years, along with the company, where I was, for many years, I, we developed a process and I think I had a lot, ultimately, I developed my process. And it's where we take little chunks of time because those people don't have a lot of time. And often they don't have a lot of attention span outside of their businesses. So you know, we break up the planning process into little chunks of time, over a long period of time, so that we can eventually kind of go through all their complexity and help simplify it for them and help tie up the loose ends, and help them to get where they want to go with regard to retiring or to their estate planning or their legacy planning, in regard to their philanthropic planning, etc. So, that's, you know, that's, that's the process that I developed over the years that I now affectionately call fiscal therapies for entrepreneurs.

Ray Loewe13:14

Great. Okay. So maybe we'll have time to go into your process a little bit. But before we do that, again, you know, the luckiest people in the world make their lives and the luckiest people in the world kind of change as they need to change. And sometimes that change is because things around you change. Excuse me. Sometimes, though, it's because we want to change, and we find new things that we get excited about. So you told me the other day, I hope I'm not diverging secrets here, but you're 66 years old ok and you are now ready.

Marc Bernstein13:55

That was a secret until now. But

Ray Loewe13:57

That was a secret. Okay. Well, every, you know, that's what you get. If you listen to changing the rules, we divulge the secrets of the world, right?

Marc Bernstein14:06

The best theme song ever for I just want to say that, you know,

Ray Loewe14:09

well, anybody who has a band called herding cats, you know, what can I say? But you made a couple of comments to me that I found exceptionally interesting and exceptionally poignant. And one of them was I think I have a lot left to give. Now, many people that I've met at 66 are saying, Okay, I'm tired of giving, you know, I'm gonna run off and live my life and play golf and do all these other things. And yet, here you are, you're starting a whole new world because you wrote a book. How long ago did you start writing this book?

Marc Bernstein14:53

Probably four years, four or five years ago.

Ray Loewe14:55

Okay, but But you were over 60 And you decided you needed to To write a book, and you need to take this process that you've been developing all your life and put it down into terms that people can build on. Alright, yeah. And you started something called the manufacturer's group. And you're, you're just going on and on. And there doesn't seem to be any end to your involvement in helping people move forward with their lives and getting their lives under control. So talk a little bit about the book, talk a little bit about the manufacturer's group, talk a little bit about where you're going.

Marc Bernstein15:37

Yeah, so there's a lot there. So I'm going to start with like, kind of the recent changes to changes, you know, that I had, which, which, by the way, most great rock and roll artists at one time or another do a song with a stutter in it. So, so like to change and so I, I have a song on my, our album that we just did, quote, should I, and there's a part at the end where it goes, sh sh sh should I. So it just came out. But I realized that's a sign of a great rock and roll song. So I decided the change look, I've always and re another thing you and I share because when we reconnected a number of years ago, we realized we're both in the Strategic Coach Program, and Dan Sullivan who created that, and talks about his life out to 156. And I was in the program like you were for many years, and it kind of expanded my vision in terms of, you know, it's not just retire at age 70. And then, you know, wait to die kind of thing. And so I've always had that. But I will tell you a couple years ago, I was kind of struggling because I wasn't sure if I was keeping up with my younger partners, I wasn't sure if I you know, had the stamina to keep, I believe you have to keep changing and, and moving forward or you go backward, and I wasn't sure about that. But I will tell you that this pandemic revitalized me, um, you know, one of the things I found out was because I was used to kind of going out and having lunches with people and meeting people. And that's how I did business. And I couldn't do that anymore. So, and around the same time, not long before the pandemic started, I took a course called create powerful, and it was about and that also really opened up my eyes is about my presence, how people perceive me how I experienced myself, and the impact that I'm having or not having on people with my conversations and my work. And I always thought I was pretty good. I probably was pretty good in that regard. But I also realized how much I had to learn about it. So that evolved into, I had some coaching. And through the coaching, I realized, boy, I can really, I could really take this up several notches and I and this the vision that I then had is something that I've always had, I said, I really have the opportunity to create this now. There's no way I'm quitting now. So one of the things that happened was I developed new ways to meet people. One was Ray, you were a part of it. I had a web series called financial leadership in turbulent times. And we brought people onto that. And I started making clients over the internet, you know, who knew you could do that? Some clients I never actually met before they became clients. But we met on Zoom, but we didn't meet in person. I then as you mentioned, I started something that's actually called manufacturers forward focus forum, as a way to get back to a passion of mine working with manufacturers, especially since you know, manufacturing, I believe is coming back to America. I just posted an article yesterday, from New Jersey Business Journal, I believe it was that talks about how you know, reshoring, you know, people were coming from offshore back here because of supply chain issues because of the labor costs rising in other countries and, you know, just the whole pandemic issues and all that. So I think the time is right for that. And I ran a pilot on that. Now I'm going to have a full-time group that's beginning in January. And that's just about full. And so this has really been a time of re-creation and understand the word recreation really is re-creation. You know, if you look at it, and I'm finding that that's what I like to do for fun now is to create, you know, whether it's creating a business, whether it's creating music, whether it's creating, I have a music management company that I've started, you know, I have a lot of diverse interests. But I'm most passionate about taking my business to the level with my partners that that that we want to take it to. And it's the kind of business I can always stay engaged with. And so what I do most of my days is having conversations like this, having conversations with entrepreneurs about their future vision about their life about What brought them to where they are, and where they want to go and help them get there. And of course, financial was a lot of it, but it's not all of it. So I'm somewhat in a coaching position with them. And I really enjoy that. And I could do that as little or as much as I want to, into my 100's, you know, into my next century, so again I believe that that could very well happen. So, so I'm working on my next 25-year plan. Now another thing I learned from Dan Sullivan, at 66. So that takes me into my 90s. And I'm very excited about that.

Ray Loewe20:33

Yeah, now I know, you've also changed your work ethic a lot, the work ethic is still strong. But you've found a way to weave more of family in they're more of other things. I know you've found a place up in the mountains, you can go hide, and you can rejuvenate. I know you were out visiting kids recently, and so the family and everything else plays a part of this. And I

Marc Bernstein21:00

You know I got a puppy too, which was just, yeah, major new part of my family.

Ray Loewe21:06

So So you know, when you look at this, it is a combination of learning it's, you're still actively engaged, I think you're probably more engaged than you ever were. But you've also figured out how to make time for the family, how to make time for your spouse, how to go hide in the mountains occasionally, and more important the puppy, right? We can't forget the puppy.

Marc Bernstein21:28

Well, and as you and I both know, being fully engaged, does not mean working as many hours as you possibly can. It means working effectively. It's working, you know, intelligently, it means focusing on your unique abilities, and having other people to do the other stuff for you. That's what to me is engaged means. So it's so and by the way, I also come I've mentioned my father worked seven days a week up to the fire. And then for a long time after that, I basically come from a family of workaholics. So it's a lot of training to not become that and to do what's necessary to keep engaged and to be fresh and be rejuvenated. But not to burn yourself out for work. So I'm there now, I don't do that.

Ray Loewe22:14

Yeah, and I think you learned as many of us did, that. We don't have to be on the road all the time, we learned this from the pandemic, that you can do a lot without commuting anymore, which creates hours for you to do something with and I guess let's sum up.  We are about out of time, we may be out of town too. But but but this whole view of retirement, can you capsulize at all? What do you think of this thing called retirement and where you're going with it?

Marc Bernstein22:45

Well, so my view, look, it is for when I work with clients, it's whatever they want it to be. And I do have some clients that are fully retired, that are very engaged in their life, and they're very happy and they love it. And that's fine if that's what we spend a lot of time exploring that make sure that I also have a number of clients that are around my age, that have recently retired, and they're telling me how miserable they are, that they really don't. And I had the conversation beforehand, they said I got plenty to do. And I'm going to play a lot of golf. And they realize there's only so much golf they can play and they used to work in their whole life. So they want to find something else to be engaged in. So it depends on the person. But for me, I would rather think and I talked about this in the book about instead of retirement, refirement, or aspirement, if that's a word. You know, like, like, to me once you stop, or I know at least once I stop that begins the you know, the slow cycle of I hate to call it this but dying. And if you're not moving forward, you're moving backward in my opinion. So for me, I need to keep engaged, keeping engaged means keep moving forward in various aspects of my life. I'm sure the definition of what that means will change over time. But that's what I want to do. I want to keep meeting new friends, new people having new social circles, new intellectual circles. I'm on a board I've mentioned to you before, I'm one of the youngest members. And I realized that all these people, it's called the American Technion Society. It's a fundraising arm of the Technion, which is like the MIT of Israel. And what we usually talk about those board meetings are innovation and new technologies in all different fields. And I realized that a lot of the older people are on their own there because they want to stay engaged and they want to keep their minds active. So that's, that's definitely something I'll continue to do as well. So that to me is, you know, it's retirement is changing how you use your time. But it doesn't mean necessarily that, you know, I don't want to think of myself as someone who's not working anymore because working to me means being productive and creating and I want to continue to do that.

Ray Loewe24:57

Well, that's a perfect way to end this segment, because we're out of time. And I think that people really need to think about this thing called retirement and figure out what their vision is going to be. And Marc is going to be back with us over the next couple of weeks in a different capacity. He's going to be my co-host. And he's bringing on some people that I didn't know before that are just magnificent people. They're interesting. They're fascinating, and they are the luckiest people in the world. So uh, Marc, thank you so much for being here today. And thanks again for being one of the luckiest people in the world. Have a great day, Taylor.

Kris Parsons25:36

Thank you for listening to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life and how you can figure out how to do that too. Join us with your lively host Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.