Chasing Leviathan

Why do we constantly look back to the ancient past to make sense of artificial intelligence, automation, and the future of work?

Penn State University's associate professor of communication and classics, Dr. Michele Kennerly, joins host PJ Wehry to discuss the surprising history of how ancient Athenian democracy shapes our modern visions of AI and cybernetics.

Dr. Kennerly explores the intersection of ancient rhetoric and technology in her book, Automated Athens: Ancient Greek Ideals in the Early Age of Automation. They examine how techno-futurists and cybernetic pioneers haven't just focused on cold mechanics, but have historically drawn on Greek ideals to imagine a post-work world that balances technological progress with deep human connection and philosophy.

In this conversation they explore: 

• Why the discourse around mid-century automation and modern AI frequently invokes a "discourse of purity" surrounding ancient Athenian democracy, hoping to recreate its philosophical heights without its historical atrocities. 
• The crucial paradox identified by MIT mathematician Norbert Wiener: why humanity cannot realistically build artificial systems that possess both supreme intelligence and supreme obedience. 
• How scholar Alice Mary Hilton coined the term "cyberculture" in 1963 as a historical counterweight to agriculture, questioning how humans will derive self-worth and meaning if machines eliminate traditional labor. 
• Why America's Founding Fathers strictly embraced Roman republicanism, while mid-century cyberneticists turned instead to Greek democracy as a way to critique the modern military-industrial complex. 
• Media theorist Marshall McLuhan's belief that thriving in an automated age requires a revival of liberal arts education to help us reclaim the forgotten arts of deep reading, conversation, and listening. 
• The concept of communication as "equipment for living together"—and how understanding rhetoric helps us bridge the tragic and comedic chasm of trying to relate to other people. 
• Why solving our modern tech and political crises might require radical systemic change, such as bringing back the ancient Athenian practice of sortition (selecting public officials by lottery) to replace costly, endless election cycles.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in philosophy, media theory, artificial intelligence, and the history of technology who wants to understand how ancient ideals can help us successfully navigate a rapidly changing digital world.

Make sure to check out Dr. Kennerly's book: Automated Athens: Ancient Greek Ideals in the Early Age of Automation: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0226852172

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com 

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. 

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. 

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Dr. Michele Kennerly
0:54 The Forgotten Connection Between Ancient Rhetoric and AI
3:25 Why Techno-Futurists Look to Ancient Athens for Inspiration 
5:24 The AI Paradox: Supreme Intelligence vs. Supreme Obedience
7:28 How Cold War Anxieties Revived Athenian Democracy Ideals 
10:00 The Cybercultural Battle: Ancient Athens vs. Ancient Rome 
11:41 How the Founding Fathers Embraced Rome Over Greece 
14:29 The Triple Revolution of the 1960s 
15:35 The Invention of Cyberculture and the End of Human Labor 
17:43 Plato's Hidden Influence on the Term Cybernetics 
18:30 Marshall McLuhan and Liberal Education in the Cyber Age 
21:50 Rediscovering Play and Childlike Wonder in a Post-Work World 
23:41 How Automation Could Cure the Hyper-Segmented Modern Life 
29:51 Cybernetics and the Secret Origins of Communication Studies 
32:45 Classical Rhetoric vs. Modern Dyadic Relationships 
36:44 Kenneth Burke and Communication 
39:04 Bureaucratizing the Imagination: Making Tech Utopias Practical 
42:34 Why America Needs Systemic Democratic Change and Sortition 
44:46 The Digital Agora: Can the Internet Create Democracy at Scale?
49:07 Concluding Thoughts

What does an ancient Greek philosopher have to teach us about navigating modern politics, friendship, and the ultimate pursuit of happiness?

Boston College's Behrakis professor in Hellenic Political Studies, Dr. Robert Bartlett, joins host PJ Wehry to discuss the enduring power and clarity of Aristotelian thought.

Dr. Bartlett explores the complex relationship between law, virtue, and human flourishing in his book, Law and the Good Life: On the Political Philosophy of Aristotle. They examine how Aristotle's teachings from Nicomachean Ethics, Politics, and The Art of Rhetoric fit together to form a comprehensive guide to what it means to live a truly good life.

In this conversation they explore: 

• Why Aristotle remains fundamentally relevant today for answering life's most direct questions about virtue, human happiness, and excellence.
• The delicate tension between the rigid, universal nature of law and the absolute necessity for "equity" and prudence (phronesis) in complex, particular circumstances. 
• How Aristotle viewed rhetoric as a "loaded gun"—a powerful tool for persuasion that requires both technical skill and moral guardrails to prevent abuse. 
• The crucial role of friendship as the bridge connecting our individual moral virtues to our broader existence within a political community. 
• Why Aristotle fundamentally disagreed with early modern thinkers like Hobbes, arguing instead that human beings are "political animals" by nature, not by artificial construct. 
• How studying historical figures like Winston Churchill and Neville Chamberlain can help us hone our own capacity for political judgment and prudence. 
• The ultimate distinction between moral virtues (action/praxis) and intellectual virtue (theoria)—and why ancient thinkers prioritized pure understanding over technological application.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in political philosophy, ancient history, and ethical living who wants to understand how Aristotle's foundational ideas can help us navigate the complexities of modern civic and personal life.

Make sure to check out Dr. Bartlett's book: Law and the Good Life: On the Political Philosophy of Aristotle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0226854655/ 

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com 

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. 

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. 

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Dr. Robert Bartlett
0:55 Why Aristotle Matters for Modern Questions on Human Flourishing 
2:59 Combining the Ethics Politics and Rhetoric into One Framework 
5:53 From Individual Moral Virtue to the Broader Political Community 
10:48 The Danger and Power of Rhetoric as a Loaded Gun 
13:35 Teaching Aristotelian Virtue Ethics to Modern College Students 
17:40 Why Universal Laws Fail and the Need for Equity 
22:58 Defining Phronesis and Prudence in Moral Judgment 
24:32 Winston Churchill and Prudence in Historical Statesmanship 
29:15 How Friendship Bridges Individual Flourishing and Civic Life 
33:10 Aristotle versus Thomas Hobbes on Human Nature and Politics 
36:36 Why Human Beings Need Both Moral and Intellectual Virtues 
40:19 Ancient Philosophy and Modern Skepticism Toward Technology 
41:58 Rhetoric as a Technical Art and Practical Knowledge 
45:08 The Debates Surrounding Practical Action and Theoretical Contemplation

Why do we often assume that fighting climate change requires a life of scarcity, asceticism, and sacrificing abundance, when nature itself is wildly generative and beautiful?

Northwestern University's Owen L. Coon Professor of Argumentation and Debate, Dr. Robert Hariman, joins host PJ Wehry on Chasing Leviathan to discuss how we can rethink our approach to the existential crisis of the Anthropocene.

Dr. Hariman explores the intersection of aesthetic knowledge and environmental survival in his book, Formal Objects: On Beauty and Sustainability. They examine how the mentality that got us into our current ecological mess isn't sufficient to get us out, and how embracing a new, ecological "formalism" might just be the key to designing a world we actually want to live in.

In this conversation they explore: 

• Why global warming is a symptom of a larger systemic crisis of modernity, and why we need a new conceptual vocabulary to survive it. 
• The history of "formalism"—why it was cast aside by academia 50 years ago, and why reinvigorating the study of form is vital for building a just and sustainable society. 
• How beauty and utility are not opposites, but actually converge to create fitness in both natural organisms and cultural artifacts. 
• The importance of "aesthetic knowledge"—an embodied, relational way of knowing that complements modern science and prevents us from treating nature merely as a mute object tailored for exploitation. 
• Why a truly sustainable society cannot be built on scarcity models or ugly, ascetic design, but must lean into nature's incredible abundance and joy.
• The dangers of monocultural regimes in design and architecture, and how true formal processes rely heavily on diversity and continuous generation. 
• Practical ways to cultivate everyday mindfulness by paying attention to the forms and local ecology around us, including a look at Central Florida's water table crisis and the impracticality of suburban lawns.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in environmentalism, architecture, philosophy, and the humanities who wants to understand how beauty and better design can help us navigate the climate crisis and build a thriving future.

Make sure to check out Dr. Hariman's book: Formal Objects: On Beauty and Sustainability: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0226853780/

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com 

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. 

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. 

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Dr. Robert Hariman
1:26 Why Modernity is in Crisis and Systems are Breaking Down 
5:04 What is Formalism and the Convergence of Beauty and Utility 
14:22 Examples of Formal Objects in Nature and Culture 
16:54 The Importance of Esthetic Knowledge and Embodied Cognition 
28:32 Central Florida Water Crisis and the Problem with Suburban Lawns 
31:42 Escaping the Myth of Ecology and Scarcity Models 
35:37 Why Use the Term Anthropocene Over Late Stage Capitalism 
44:18 Why a Truly Sustainable Society Cannot Be Ugly 
46:11 Concluding Thoughts

Why have we reduced the profound, human experience of eating into a sterile game of counting calories, optimizing nutrition, and "maxing" our productivity?

Iowa State University's professor of practice, Dr. Scott Samuelson, joins host PJ Weary to discuss how the simple act of cooking can serve as a profound paradigm for leading a meaningful life.

Dr. Samuelson explores the deep intersections of culinary arts and philosophical inquiry in his book, To Taste: On Cooking and the Good Life. They examine how true nourishment isn't found in abstract nutritional labels or industrial farming models, but rather requires active engagement, tradition, and shared human connection.

In this conversation they explore: 

• How conversations about Italian food with a Hegel scholar and moonlighting as a sous chef at a farm-to-table French restaurant revealed that cooking and philosophy are fundamentally the same pursuit. 
• The dangers of the "barbarism of reflection"—how abstracting food into mere data points (like calories or gut biomes) strips away the cultural and relational essence of eating. 
• Why the philosopher Alfred North Whitehead's stages of education—romance, discipline, and synthesis—perfectly mirror the journey of becoming a skilled cook and developing a personal style. 
• The concept of playing the "Dodgeball of Evil" versus planting a "Garden of the Good," and why trying to be perfectly pure in our food ethics is less effective than actively growing honest practices around us. 
• The problem with the modern obsession of "maxing" and optimizing our lives like industrial machines, rather than growing like diverse, resilient ecosystems. 
• A poignant lesson from end-of-life care: why asking "what does a good day look like?" almost always centers around the simple joy of sharing a leisurely meal with loved ones.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in philosophy, culinary arts, and intentional living who wants to reconnect with the rich, sensory experiences that make life truly worth living.

Make sure to check out Dr. Samuelson's book: To Taste: On Cooking and the Good Life: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0226853667/

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com 

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. 

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. 

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Dr. Scott Samuelson 
1:06 How Moonlighting as a Sous Chef Inspired a Philosophy Book 
4:22 Why Cooking is the Perfect Paradigm for a Meaningful Life 
7:44 Alfred North Whitehead and the Rhythm of Romance and Discipline 
11:27 The Barbarism of Reflection and the Dangers of Abstracting Food 
14:30 Why Reducing Meals to Pure Nutrition Harms Human Connection 
17:20 How the Culture of Maxing and Optimization Weaponizes Health 
19:17 Why Spending Leisurely Time in the Kitchen Defines a Good Day 
25:53 Discovering the Romance of Culinary Arts through Lebanese Traditions 
32:47 The Deep Intersubjective Meaning Behind Seasoning to Taste 
36:27 Sourcing Fresh Ingredients and the True Ethics of Farm-to-Table Cooking 
41:15 Why Cultivating the Garden of the Good Beats the Dodgeball of Evil 
45:41 The Dangers of Monoculture Farming and the Industrial Human Model 
49:49 Closing Thoughts

Why does modern morality often feel like an exhausting, impossible burden rather than an inspiring way to live? Are we all required to be perfect "moral exemplars," or is there a strong philosophical case for simply living a decent life?

Dr. Todd May, the Nielsen Professor of the Humanities at Warren Wilson College (Asheville, NC), joins host PJ Weary to discuss how we can rethink our moral obligations and expectations in a highly demanding world.

Dr. May explores the realistic boundaries of human goodness in his book, A Decent Life: Morality for the Rest of Us. They examine how genuine decency doesn't demand extreme altruism or austere self-sacrifice—like donating a kidney to a stranger just to maximize utility—but rather requires a "moral gracefulness" that allows us to care for others while still enjoying rich, meaningful human lives.

In this conversation they explore: 
🔷 Why the extreme utilitarian demands of philosophers like Peter Singer pushed Dr. May to write a practical moral framework designed for "sane people." 
🔷 Susan Wolf's concept of "Moral Saints," and why a world full of perfect moral exemplars would actually force us to abandon deeply meaningful human experiences like art, music, and close friendship. 
🔷 The crucial difference between altruism (strict self-sacrifice) and decency, and how to carry your morality as an inspiring opportunity rather than an exhausting lifelong burden. 
🔷 Thomas Nagel's concept of "conditional moral luck," and how specific historic circumstances, like the Civil Rights movement in the South or today's climate crisis, can temporarily call us to step up beyond basic decency. 
🔷 How to expand your circle of sympathy (borrowing from David Hume) starting with those closest to you in everyday life, and moving outward to future generations and non-human animals. 
🔷 The concept of "backward causality" and how the climate legacy of the Boomer generation directly impacts their moral standing with Gen Z and Gen Alpha. 
🔷 The profound importance of curiosity and visibility in ethics, from the ethics of dog ownership to the simple, humanizing act of looking unhoused individuals in the face. 
🔷 How to practically navigate politics and road rage without burning out or losing your own humanity.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in philosophy, ethics, and healthy living who wants to understand how to be a genuinely good person and improve their local communities without sacrificing their own well-being or burning out in a polarized world.

Make sure to check out Dr. May's book: A Decent Life: Morality for the Rest of Us: https://www.amazon.com/dp/022660974X

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com 

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. 

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. 

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Dr. Todd May
3:17 Defining Decency and the Problem With Moral Exemplars
3:43 Lessons on Moral Expectations From Teresa of Avila and Elijah
7:40 Susan Wolf and the Hidden Cost of Being a Moral Saint
11:14 Altruism vs. Decency and Finding Moral Grace
14:30 Cultural Decency Norms in Copenhagen vs. the United States
15:50 Thomas Nagel and the Realities of Conditional Moral Luck
20:00 David Hume and Widening Our Circle of Sympathy
22:20 Practical Decency and the Controversial Coffee Cup Example
24:45 Why Curiosity is the True Foundation of Moral Decency
28:40 Extending Ethics to Future Generations and Non-Human Animals
32:00 David Boonin and Our Moral Obligations to the Dead
33:00 Climate Change and the Boomer Generation's Moral Legacy
35:40 Moral Individualism and the Ethics of Animal Rights
39:15 The Complexities of Factory Farming and Real-World Policy
40:40 Navigating Modern Politics With Decency
44:40 Analyzing Personal Narratives and Road Rage Values
50:50 Practical Tips for Living a More Decent Life Today

Why do we claim to love our dogs while breeding them for dependence and keeping them in environments that strip away their daily choices?

Bioethicist and author Dr. Jessica Pierce joins host PJ Wehry on Chasing Leviathan to discuss human-animal relationships and the profound interconnections between ecosystems and health.

Dr. Pierce explores the ethics of our canine bonds in her book, Who's a Good Human? Practical Exercises for Living Mindfully with Dogs. They examine how an ethical relationship isn't about demanding strict obedience from a "pet," but rather requires the skills of curiosity, collaboration, and care.

In this conversation they explore:

• Why the standard model of viewing dogs simply as pets is flawed, and how to embrace the collaborative, often messy project of living together. 
• The concept of "experiential ethics"—or embodied ethics—and how mucking through complex life experiences teaches us more than abstract philosophical principles. 
• How a scientific thought experiment about dogs surviving a human-erasing rapture revealed that dogs might actually be better off without us. 
• The "phenomenological recalibration" Dr. Pierce experienced after becoming a volunteer firefighter in her mountain community, and how it radically shifted her perception of the natural world. 
• The dark side of modern dog breeding, the cultural obsession with unhealthy breeds like pugs and French Bulldogs, and why humans are psychologically drawn to canine dependence. 
• Why we should view modern companion dogs as "captive animals" and how introducing micro-choices into their daily routines can profoundly improve their welfare. 
• How applying the Zen Buddhist concept of "beginner's mind" and practicing deep curiosity can transform our knee-jerk annoyances—like a dog barking—into moments of mindful communication.

This is a conversation for anyone interested in bioethics, dog ethology, and mindfulness who wants to understand how to sincerely navigate our relationship with animals while honoring their fundamental needs and agency.

Make sure to check out Dr. Pierce's book: Who's a Good Human? Practical Exercises for Living Mindfully with Dogs 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0226854213/

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com 

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. 

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. 

Timestamps
00:00:00 Introducing Dr. Jessica Pierce

00:04:08 Experiential Ethics and Training Attention 

00:05:22 Would Dogs Survive Without Humans?

00:07:30 Firefighting and Phenomenological Recalibration 

00:16:00 The Problem with Armchair Philosophy 

00:19:21 Navigating Imperfect Moral Choices 

00:23:42 The Dark Side of Dog Breeding 

00:26:18 The Environmental Impact of Healthcare 

00:29:26 Navigating End of Life Pet Care 

00:33:51 Ethical Complications of Owning Dogs 

00:40:36 Recognizing Dogs as Captive Animals 

00:43:10 Providing Choices for Captive Dogs 

00:45:32 Engaging with Anti-Dog Sentiments 

00:51:00 Why Dogs Deserve Meaningful Work 

00:54:19 Applying Beginners Mind and Curiosity 

Why did one of the most famous and ambitious philosophers in European history fall completely out of favor in just a few decades, and why is his totalizing view of reality still relevant today? 

Northwestern University's associate professor of philosophy and president of the Hegel Society of America, Dr. Mark Alznauer, joins host PJ Wehry to discuss the breathtaking scope and historical impact of Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel. 

Dr. Alznauer explores Hegel's attempt to map the entire cosmos, human civilization, and religion from a single logical concept in his book, Hegel's Sole Idea: The Last Great Metaphysical System. They examine how Hegel's "encyclopedia system" served as the last grand metaphysical project in Western thought, why his immediate successors violently rejected it, and how his legacy continues to shape our modern historical awareness. 

In this conversation they explore: 

• Why Hegel’s system is comparable to monumental literary works like Dante's Divine Comedy or Tolstoy's War and Peace in its attempt to provide a comprehensive, organized worldview. 
• The provocative way Hegel positioned his philosophy as the "Holy Spirit," claiming it could conceptually prove the theological truths that Christianity only provided in pictures or representations. 
• The swift collapse of Hegel's reputation after his death in 1831, leading to the deep divide between the Right and Left Hegelians, including the materialist critiques of Ludwig Feuerbach and Karl Marx. 
• Søren Kierkegaard's fierce rejection of Hegel's objective system, arguing that true Christianity requires a passionate, existential decision rather than cold, speculative contemplation. 
• How Hegel’s philosophy of history—arguing that human epochs unfold with internal, logical necessity toward freedom—differs radically from the contingent, sociological explanations we rely on today. 
• The neo-Hegelian influence on Francis Fukuyama’s "End of History," and how questioning the ultimate direction of political history remains deeply relevant as our democratic landscapes continue to evolve. This is a conversation for anyone interested in philosophy, history, and theology who wants to understand the dizzying ambition of the last great metaphysical system and the profound ways its failure shaped the modern intellectual landscape. 

Make sure to check out Dr. Alznauer's book: Hegel's Soul Idea: The Last Great Metaphysical System 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0226853675/ 

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com 

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. 

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. 

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Mark Alznauer 
00:01:08 Why Hegel's Encyclopedia System Matters Today   
00:04:18 Comparing Hegel to Dante and Tolstoy   
00:12:47 Understanding the Logos and Absolute Idea   
00:17:15 How Philosophy Replaces Religion in Hegelian Thought   
00:20:07 Karl Marx and the Left Hegelian Critique   
00:26:54 Kierkegaard's Existential Rebellion against Hegel   
00:33:56 The Ultimate Failure of Western Metaphysics   
00:39:16 Charles Taylor and the Neo Hegelian Historical Method   
00:44:46 Historical Necessity Versus Sociological Contingency   
00:47:56 Francis Fukuyama and the End of History   
00:58:40 How Hegel Influenced the Modern Social Sciences   
01:00:53 Closing Thoughts

Why do morally good people often hesitate to change other people's minds, viewing persuasion as presumptuous, obnoxious, or downright creepy? 

The University of Washington's professor of philosophy, Dr. Colin Marshall, joins host PJ Wehry to discuss how to successfully bridge deep divides in our highly polarized climate.

Dr. Marshall explores the ethics and psychology of civil persuasion in his book, Just Hear Me Out: How to Change Minds Without Lies, Bullshit, or Moral Compromise. They examine how genuine persuasion isn't about manipulation or aggressive takedowns , but rather requires a delicate balance of respect, compassion, and the right environment.

In this conversation they explore: 

• Why the fallout of the 2016 US presidential election pushed Dr. Marshall from pure theoretical philosophy into finding practical tools for civil engagement. 
• The crucial difference between manipulative persuasion—where people are treated as obstacles to maneuver—and civil persuasion that honors a person's complete humanity. 
• How combining Immanuel Kant's emphasis on rational respect with Arthur Schopenhauer's focus on deep compassion creates a coherent framework for changing minds. 
• Why attempting to persuade someone at the Thanksgiving table almost always fails, and the importance of establishing an "attention-friendly context" like grabbing a coffee or a beer. 
• Incredible real-world examples of successful persuasion, including Daryl Davis persuading extremists to leave the KKK and Megan Phelps-Roper leaving the Westboro Baptist Church after patient, charitable interactions on Twitter. 
• The concept of "moral myopia"—the deeply human tendency to become so hyper-focused on one moral issue or our own self-respect that we lose sight of the other person's bandwidth and feelings. 
• The psychology of building trust, and why establishing warmth and shared humanity must always come before proving your intellectual competence. 

This is a conversation for anyone interested in philosophy, psychology, and healthy communication who wants to understand how to sincerely navigate our modern disagreements without sacrificing their own moral integrity.

Make sure to check out Dr. Marshall's book: Just Hear Me Out: How to Change Minds without Lies, Bullshit, or Moral Compromise 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0226842002/

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com 

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. 

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. 

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Dr. Colin Marshall
1:17 Why Good People Avoid Persuasion After the 2016 Election
4:32 Respect and Compassion in Kant and Schopenhauer
6:16 Balancing Respect and Compassion in Difficult Conversations
8:38 Thanksgiving, Arguments, and Creating Better Conversation Contexts
9:09 Daryl Davis, Jane Addams, and Megan Phelps Roper as Persuasion Case Studies
13:17 Curiosity, Compassion, and Seeing People You Disagree With
15:57 Self Respect, Boundaries, and When to Disengage or Walk Away
18:15 Mr. Rogers' Congress Testimony and Quiet Moral Confidence
19:35 Manipulation Versus Civil Persuasion and the Marionette Metaphor
24:32 Attention Friendly Contexts and Why Rushing Arguments Fails
33:42 Moral Myopia and Missing Key Ethical Pieces in Arguments
40:34 Respect Versus Trust and When Not to Trust Someone
44:44 Warmth, Competence, and the Psychology of Building Trust
47:53 Practical Ways to Build Trust and Show You Know What You are Talking About
52:02 Closing Thoughts

In this quick update, host PJ Weary shares some news about the future production schedule of the podcast. Thank you all for your continued support. We continue to having you join us for the next conversation.

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com 

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. 

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. 

What happens when a feeling we assume is a universal human experience is actually shaped, defined, and even created by our specific cultural language and material conditions? 

Macquarie University's Future Fellow at the School of Humanities, Dr. Katie Barclay, joins host PJ Wehry to discuss the overlooked complexities of a deeply human emotion. 

Dr. Barclay explores the history and cultural variety of this feeling in her book, Loneliness in World History. They examine how loneliness is frequently not just an internal psychological state, but rather a reflection of our relationships with our environment, our community, and the specific language we use to make sense of our world. 

In this conversation they explore: 

• How the "language trap" challenges our ability to compare emotions across cultures, and why translating words for love and loneliness requires understanding their thick cultural context. 
• The surprising nighttime weeping rituals of the Kaluli people in Papua New Guinea, where singing about loneliness serves as a cathartic communal release of pain. 
• Why the historical narrative of human "modernization"—moving from supposedly primitive communal selves to modern individualized subjects—carries deeply colonial and problematic assumptions. 
• The physiological elements of isolation, including "touch hunger" and how the modern internet trend of Mukbang satiates the deep-seated desire to eat alongside a community. 
• How physical places and material architecture—from fairy-tale forests to utopian high-rise flats and car-centric suburbs—actively teach us to feel isolated and shape our emotional experiences. 
• The paradox of the "lonely genius," revealing how the supposedly solitary pursuit of art and creativity is fundamentally dependent on an unseen network of community support and labor. 

This is a conversation for anyone interested in world history, anthropology, and the humanities who wants to understand the cultural weight behind our everyday emotions and how we can navigate our increasingly isolated, digital modern age. 

Make sure to check out Dr. Barclay's book: Loneliness in World History 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/1032359811/ 

Check out our website at chasingleviathan.com 

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. 

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. 

Timestamps
0:00 Introducing Dr. Katie Barclay
0:48 Why a Love Historian Studied Loneliness
2:07 How to Study Loneliness Across Cultures
4:03 The Language Trap in Emotion and Translation
5:34 Imperialism, Medicine, and Measuring Pain
7:01 Thick Cultural Definitions of Emotion
8:43 Humor, Culture, and Everyday Misunderstandings
10:34 Defining Loneliness as Pain and Social Mismatch
13:01 Questioning Modern Western Psychology on Loneliness
14:07 Kaluli Ritual of Shared Grief and Loneliness
16:44 Community Survival and Existential Loneliness
20:15 Modernization Narratives and the Communal Self
23:36 East/West Stereotypes about Self and Loneliness
27:17 Philosophers, Hunger, and the Limits of Elite Theory
30:45 Bodies, Touch, Hunger, and the Physiology of Loneliness
32:22 Forests, Liminal Spaces, and Emotional Landscapes
36:03 Colonization, Land Displacement, and Indigenous Loneliness
38:12 Suburbs, High Rise Flats, and Designed Isolation
44:48 Solitude, Creativity, and the Myth of the Lone Genius
49:08 Closing Thoughts