ChinaTalk

By Jordan Schneider

Conversations exploring China, technology, and US-China relations. Guests include a wide range of analysts, policymakers, and academics. Hosted by Jordan Schneider.

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The podcast currently has 434 episodes available.

ChinaTalk episodes:

October 02, 2024Imperial Legacy Part 2: 1949 to Xi's Death
Welcome back to part two of our interview with Yasheng Huang 黄亚生, the author of The Rise and Fall of the EAST: How Exams, Autocracy, Stability, and Technology Brought China Success and Why They Might Lead to Its Decline.
We cover a lot of ground in this two-hour installment. During the first hour, we discuss…
The aspects of imperial China’s governance Mao chose to embrace, and those he chose to abandon,
The factors enabling Mao’s radical policies compared to imperial rulers,
Why China was able to grow so much faster than India, despite the setbacks of the Cultural Revolution,
Statistical approaches for evaluating the effectiveness of autocratic development models,
China’s economic reforms and rural development policies in the 1980s,
How the events of 1989 permanently altered China’s trajectory,
Whether the rise of Xi Jinping was inevitable,
In the second hour, we discuss...
The Steelman case for why China needed a leader like Xi Jinping,
What sets Xi apart from his predecessors,
Succession challenges and the importance of term limits in authoritarian states,
Why engagement with China failed to produce political liberalization,
How the US could have better leveraged economic relations with China,
Creative approaches to human rights advocacy in China.

Outro music: Nothing to My Name (一无所有) by Cui Jian (崔健) (Youtube Link)

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2h 5min
September 23, 2024Autocracy, Exams and Stagnation: Imperial China's Modern Legacy
Yasheng Huang 黄亚生 is the author of one of the decade’s greatest books about China — The Rise and Fall of the EAST: How Exams, Autocracy, Stability, and Technology Brought China Success and Why They Might Lead to Its Decline. It’s a rich book, a product of a career of reflections, with each page delivering something novel and provocative.
In this first half of our two-part interview, we discuss…
How the imperial examination system (known as keju) shaped Chinese governance, culture, and society,
Why autocratic Chinese dynasties benefitted from a meritocratic bureaucracy,
Statistical methods for analyzing social mobility in imperial China,
How the keju system survived the Mongol conquest,
What the tradeoffs in the imperial exam system can teach us about the future economic prospects of China and Taiwan.
Co-hosting today is Ilari Mäkelä, host of the On Humans podcast.
NOTES (Courtesy of Ilari)
A Rough Timeline of Chinese history:
Pre–221 BCE: Disunity (e.g. Warring States)
221 BCE – 220: Unity (Qin & Han dynasties)
220 – 581: Disunity (“Han-Sui Interregnum”)
581 – 1911: Unity (Sui, Tang, Song, Yuan, Ming, and Qing Dynasties)
Historical figures
Emperor Wanli 萬曆帝 | Shen Kuo 沈括 (polymath) | Zhu Xi 朱熹 (classical philosopher) | Hong Xiuquan 洪秀全 (leader of the Taiping Rebellion) | Yuan Shikai 袁世凯 (military leader) | Chiang Kai-shek 蔣介石 (military leader and statesman)
Modern scholars
Ping-ti Ho 何炳棣 (historian) | Clair Yang (economist) | Joseph Needham (scientist and historian) | Daron Acemoglu | James Robinson
Historical terms
Keju civil service exams | Taiping Rebellion
REFERENCES
A lot of the original data discussed in the episode is original from Huang’s book. As an exception, Huang references his co-authored article on civil service exams and imperial stability, written with Clair Yang.
Outtro music: 等着你回来 by 白光, a 1930s Shanghai starlet https://open.spotify.com/track/0aHMT9dIdPDz094fc37Xq0?si=d1591ff2339d421c

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1h 16min
September 17, 2024R&D Renaissance with Kumar Garg
To discuss America’s comparative advantages in national competition and the structural forces that drive (and limit) innovation, ChinaTalk interviewed Kumar Garg.
Formerly an Obama official in the Office of Science and Technology Policy, Kumar spent several years at Schmidt Futures focusing on science and technology philanthropy. He has been a mentor and cheerleader for ChinaTalk over the years, and he is the president of the newly established Renaissance Philanthropy.
We discuss:
The inspiration behind Renaissance Philanthropy and its focus on mid-scale, field-transforming ideas
Strategies for identifying underexplored, high-impact projects — including weather forecasting, carbon sequestration, and datasets on neurocognition
Structural challenges for R&D funding at the level of government and universities
The role of focused research organizations like OpenAI in accelerating progress and understanding long-term drivers of productivity
A wide angle-view of US-China competition and strategic innovation
The underresearched importance of alliance management.

Outtro music:
Song 1 - If ye love me - Thomas Tallis and the Cambridge Singers (Youtube Link)
Song 2 - Recercare (I) - Francesco Spinacino and Robert Meunier (Youtube Link)

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1h 16min
September 09, 2024National Intel Council on The IC's Pivot to Asia
Michael Collins is the acting chair of the National Intelligence Council (NIC). He has spent 28 years in the intelligence community, starting as a career analyst in the CIA focused on East Asia before moving into leadership roles. He served as chief of staff for the CIA deputy director and worked on modernization efforts in the agency.
We discuss…
How the intelligence community informs high-level policymaking,
Why different institutional approaches are needed to collect intelligence on non-state actors vs nation-state adversaries,
Challenges in assessing China’s technological and military capabilities,
“Narrative Intelligence” and areas where intelligence agencies have a unique edge,
Strategies for improving long-term forecasting and avoiding groupthink.

Outro music: Scorpions - Wind Of Change (Youtube Link)

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1h 5min
September 04, 2024Competition Policy 2025
To discuss the post-election future of US competition policy, ChinaTalk interviewed Peter Harrell and Nazak Nikakhtar.
Nazak served in the Trump administration after a long career as a civil servant, where she was instrumental in shaping the Commerce Department’s work on China, first at the International Trade Administration and later leading the Bureau of Industry and Security. Peter worked in the Biden administration on the National Economic Council and National Security Council, focusing on international economics, export controls, and investment restrictions.
We discuss…
The role of the executive in setting the industrial policy agenda
Leadership shortcomings in the Biden and Trump administrations
Competition with China — bipartisan consensus, bureaucratic inertia, and strategies to stop wasting time.
Advice for America’s next president, from export controls to pharmaceutical decoupling and alliance management
Creative approaches to supply chain resilience

This is 2023 CSET report Jordan referenced (See the “Understanding the Intangibles section)
Outtro Music: Jun Mayuzumi - Black Room (Youtube Link)

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1h 16min
August 28, 2024AI and the Rise and Fall of Great Powers
Jeffrey Ding is a professor at George Washington University, leading US scholar on China’s AI, and the creator of the ChinAI Substack. In honor of the publication of his new book, Technology and the Rise of Great Powers, enjoy this interview with Jeff from the ChinaTalk archives.
Jeff Ding argues in a 2023 paper that great powers must harness general-purpose technologies if they want to achieve global dominance. That is, diffusion capacity (not just innovation capacity) is critical to economic growth — and China actually fares much worse in diffusion capacity than mainstream narratives imply.
In this show, we discuss the historical underpinnings of that argument and apply it to AI today — drawing out policymaking lessons spanning centuries of technologically driven great power transitions. We also get into:
Why long-term productivity growth is driven by the diffusion of general-purpose technology, and what makes this so crucial for great power competition;
Historical lessons from the UK, Soviet Union, US, and Germany illustrating the cultural and policy roadblocks to tech diffusion;
The importance of decentralized systems, and how this helped America win the Cold War
Why China’s diffusion capacity lags behind its innovation capacity, and how America should avoid getting locked into any one technological trajectory.

Co-hosting is Teddy Collins, formerly of DeepMind and the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy.
Outro music: 分享那奇沃夫/Prodby玉的单曲《亚克西》(Youtube Link)

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1h 12min
August 19, 2024History and Future of Global Patent Policy
Thanks to The Innovation Alliance for sponsoring this episode. The Innovation Alliance is a coalition of research and development-based technology companies representing innovators, patent owners, and stakeholders who believe in the critical importance of maintaining a strong patent system that supports innovative enterprises of all sizes.
To discuss the domestic and international implications of patent policy, ChinaTalk interviewed Brian Pomper. Brian was the Chief International Trade Counsel to Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, and he is now a partner at Akin Gump.
We discuss:
The history of America’s innovation hegemony, from the signing of the Constitution to patent trolls and Elon Musk
Why big tech companies spent decades systematically attacking the foundations of the US patent system
The thermonuclear patent war of Apple vs Samsung
The evolution of Standard Essential Patents (SEPs) as a battleground for emerging tech competition
Why China’s approach to patent litigation is causing controversy in Europe
The intersection of patent policy and international trade agreements.

Outtro music: Minitel Rose - Magic Powder (Youtube Link)
Here's the 2-hour show on global tech standards from the ChinaTalk archives: Global Standards: What's the Deal? Spotify link, Apple Podcasts Link

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58min
August 13, 2024Industrial Icebreaker Policy
Here at ChinaTalk, we break the ice on all things international relations, and today we are diving into a topic that is snow joke — icebreakers!
We interviewed William Henagan and Robert Obayda, both directors of the NSC. We discuss:
How Canada, Finland, and the United States are leveling up their cooperation in the Arctic through the Icebreaker Collaboration Effort (ICE Pact);
The mechanics of industrial policy in the US government;
Why cranes matter for national security, and the benefits of using carrots vs sticks;
What icebreakers are for, and how Finland is punching above its weight in the NATO alliance.

Co-hosting today is former ChinaTalk intern Alexander Boyd, who is currently at the China Digital Times.
Outtro music: Arctic Monkeys — A Certain Romance (link) and Mardy Bum (link)
Pictured: the Russian icebreaker Yamal.

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1h 7min
August 06, 2024The Pentagon’s Innovation Insurgents
Chris Kirchhoff was a founding member of the Defense Innovation Unit (DIU) and previously worked in the Obama NSC. He recently published a book called Unit X: How the Pentagon and Silicon Valley Are Transforming the Future of War. He wrote:
“To the extent present military and civilian leadership is articulating its strategy, it is one built, for the most part, on a continuation of previous programmatic and budgetary trendlines. If there is a strategy for losing a future war in China, this is it.”
Unit X traces the evolution of the Defense Innovation Unit (DIU), a group of Pentagon insurgents who are fighting to change how the DoD relates to emerging technologies.
We discuss:
The origin story of DIU and its early struggles to break Pentagon bureaucracy;
How DIU leveraged “waiver authority” to circumvent red tape under Defense Secretary Ash Carter;
Why the defense industrial base is ill-equipped to keep pace with technological change;
The case for shifting more DoD spending to non-traditional tech companies;
Lessons from commercial spaceflight for future AI governance, including potential issues with a “Manhattan project for AI.”

Outtro music: 告五人 Accusefive - 愛人錯過 Somewhere in Time (Youtube Link)

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1h 16min
August 05, 2024The Pentagon’s Innovation Insurgents
Chris Kirchhoff was a founding member of the Defense Innovation Unit (DIU) and previously worked in the Obama NSC. He recently published a book called Unit X: How the Pentagon and Silicon Valley Are Transforming the Future of War. He wrote:
“To the extent present military and civilian leadership is articulating its strategy, it is one built, for the most part, on a continuation of previous programmatic and budgetary trendlines. If there is a strategy for losing a future war in China, this is it.”
Unit X traces the evolution of the Defense Innovation Unit (DIU), a group of Pentagon insurgents who are fighting to change how the DoD relates to emerging technologies.
We discuss:
The origin story of DIU and its early struggles to break Pentagon bureaucracy;
How DIU leveraged “waiver authority” to circumvent red tape under Defense Secretary Ash Carter;
Why the defense industrial base is ill-equipped to keep pace with technological change;
The case for shifting more DoD spending to non-traditional tech companies;
Lessons from commercial spaceflight for future AI governance, including potential issues with a “Manhattan project for AI.”

Outtro music: 告五人 Accusefive - 愛人錯過 Somewhere in Time (Youtube Link)

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1h 16min

FAQs about ChinaTalk:

How many episodes does ChinaTalk have?

The podcast currently has 434 episodes available.