ChinaTalk

Yasheng Huang 黄亚生 is the author of one of the decade’s greatest books about China — The Rise and Fall of the EAST: How Exams, Autocracy, Stability, and Technology Brought China Success and Why They Might Lead to Its Decline. It’s a rich book, a product of a career of reflections, with each page delivering something novel and provocative.

In this first half of our two-part interview, we discuss…

Co-hosting today is Ilari Mäkelä, host of the On Humans podcast. 

NOTES (Courtesy of Ilari)

A Rough Timeline of Chinese history:

Pre–221 BCE: Disunity (e.g. Warring States) 

221 BCE – 220: Unity (Qin & Han dynasties)

220 – 581: Disunity (“Han-Sui Interregnum”)

581 – 1911: Unity (Sui, Tang, Song, Yuan, Ming, and Qing Dynasties)

Historical figures

Emperor Wanli 萬曆帝 | Shen Kuo 沈括 (polymath) | Zhu Xi 朱熹 (classical philosopher) | Hong Xiuquan 洪秀全 (leader of the Taiping Rebellion) | Yuan Shikai 袁世凯 (military leader) | Chiang Kai-shek 蔣介石 (military leader and statesman)

Modern scholars

Ping-ti Ho 何炳棣 (historian) | Clair Yang (economist) | Joseph Needham (scientist and historian) | Daron Acemoglu | James Robinson

Historical terms

Keju civil service exams | Taiping Rebellion

REFERENCES

A lot of the original data discussed in the episode is original from Huang’s book. As an exception, Huang references his co-authored article on civil service exams and imperial stability, written with Clair Yang.

Outtro music: 等着你回来 by 白光, a 1930s Shanghai starlet https://open.spotify.com/track/0aHMT9dIdPDz094fc37Xq0?si=d1591ff2339d421c

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To discuss America’s comparative advantages in national competition and the structural forces that drive (and limit) innovation, ChinaTalk interviewed Kumar Garg. 

Formerly an Obama official in the Office of Science and Technology Policy, Kumar spent several years at Schmidt Futures focusing on science and technology philanthropy. He has been a mentor and cheerleader for ChinaTalk over the years, and he is the president of the newly established Renaissance Philanthropy.

We discuss:

Outtro music:

Song 1 - If ye love me - Thomas Tallis and the Cambridge Singers (Youtube Link)

Song 2 - Recercare (I) - Francesco Spinacino and Robert Meunier (Youtube Link)

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Michael Collins is the acting chair of the National Intelligence Council (NIC). He has spent 28 years in the intelligence community, starting as a career analyst in the CIA focused on East Asia before moving into leadership roles. He served as chief of staff for the CIA deputy director and worked on modernization efforts in the agency.

We discuss…

Outro music: Scorpions - Wind Of Change (Youtube Link)

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To discuss the post-election future of US competition policy, ChinaTalk interviewed Peter Harrell and Nazak Nikakhtar.

Nazak served in the Trump administration after a long career as a civil servant, where she was instrumental in shaping the Commerce Department’s work on China, first at the International Trade Administration and later leading the Bureau of Industry and Security. Peter worked in the Biden administration on the National Economic Council and National Security Council, focusing on international economics, export controls, and investment restrictions.

We discuss…

This is 2023 CSET report Jordan referenced (See the “Understanding the Intangibles section)

Outtro Music: Jun Mayuzumi - Black Room (Youtube Link)

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Jeffrey Ding is a professor at George Washington University, leading US scholar on China’s AI, and the creator of the ChinAI Substack. In honor of the publication of his new book, Technology and the Rise of Great Powers, enjoy this interview with Jeff from the ChinaTalk archives.

Jeff Ding argues in a 2023 paper that great powers must harness general-purpose technologies if they want to achieve global dominance. That is, diffusion capacity (not just innovation capacity) is critical to economic growth — and China actually fares much worse in diffusion capacity than mainstream narratives imply.

In this show, we discuss the historical underpinnings of that argument and apply it to AI today — drawing out policymaking lessons spanning centuries of technologically driven great power transitions. We also get into:

Co-hosting is Teddy Collins, formerly of DeepMind and the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy.

Outro music: 分享那奇沃夫/Prodby玉的单曲《亚克西》(Youtube Link)

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Thanks to The Innovation Alliance for sponsoring this episode. The Innovation Alliance is a coalition of research and development-based technology companies representing innovators, patent owners, and stakeholders who believe in the critical importance of maintaining a strong patent system that supports innovative enterprises of all sizes.

To discuss the domestic and international implications of patent policy, ChinaTalk interviewed Brian Pomper. Brian was the Chief International Trade Counsel to Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, and he is now a partner at Akin Gump.

We discuss:

Outtro music: Minitel Rose - Magic Powder (Youtube Link)

Here's the 2-hour show on global tech standards from the ChinaTalk archives: Global Standards: What's the Deal? Spotify link, Apple Podcasts Link

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Here at ChinaTalk, we break the ice on all things international relations, and today we are diving into a topic that is snow joke — icebreakers! 

We interviewed William Henagan and Robert Obayda, both directors of the NSC. We discuss:

Co-hosting today is former ChinaTalk intern Alexander Boyd, who is currently at the China Digital Times. 

Outtro music: Arctic Monkeys — A Certain Romance (link) and Mardy Bum (link)

Pictured: the Russian icebreaker Yamal.

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Chris Kirchhoff was a founding member of the Defense Innovation Unit (DIU) and previously worked in the Obama NSC. He recently published a book called Unit X: How the Pentagon and Silicon Valley Are Transforming the Future of War. He wrote:

“To the extent present military and civilian leadership is articulating its strategy, it is one built, for the most part, on a continuation of previous programmatic and budgetary trendlines. If there is a strategy for losing a future war in China, this is it.”

Unit X traces the evolution of the Defense Innovation Unit (DIU), a group of Pentagon insurgents who are fighting to change how the DoD relates to emerging technologies.

We discuss:

Outtro music: 告五人 Accusefive - 愛人錯過 Somewhere in Time (Youtube Link)

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[If the outtro music comes in early for you, try the other upload]

Chris Kirchhoff was a founding member of the Defense Innovation Unit (DIU) and previously worked in the Obama NSC. He recently published a book called Unit X: How the Pentagon and Silicon Valley Are Transforming the Future of War. He wrote:

“To the extent present military and civilian leadership is articulating its strategy, it is one built, for the most part, on a continuation of previous programmatic and budgetary trendlines. If there is a strategy for losing a future war in China, this is it.”

Unit X traces the evolution of the Defense Innovation Unit (DIU), a group of Pentagon insurgents who are fighting to change how the DoD relates to emerging technologies.

We discuss:

Outtro music: 告五人 Accusefive - 愛人錯過 Somewhere in Time (Youtube Link)

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After decades of neoliberalism, how much can America’s bureaucrats crank the dial on effective industrial policy? Will the CHIPS Act succeed at reshoring high-tech manufacturing?

Next week is the Chips Act’s second anniversary. To discuss, ChinaTalk interviewed Ben Schwartz, the former director for national security at the CHIPS Program Office, which manages a $39 billion grant program appropriated by the CHIPS and Science Act.

We get into: 

Outtro Music: The Rolling Stones - You Can’t Always Get What You Want (Youtube Link)

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