In which John Heilemann talks with Chris Krebs, founding director of the federal Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency and the last Donald Trump appointee to be fired by tweet (after he declared that the 2020 election was the “most secure in American history”). Heilemann and Krebs discuss his work as a co-chair of the Aspen Institute’s Commission on Information Disorder and its recently released final report, which focuses on the root causes of America’s mis- and disinformation crisis and its proposals to combat it, his tumultuous experience in the Trump administration, and his fears that 2022 and 2024 could propel the country into an "anti-democratic death spiral."

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