[showhide more_text=”Show Transcript (%s words)” less_text=”Hide Transcript”]Camden Bucey: 00:07 Welcome to Christ The Center, your weekly conversation of reformed theology. We’re now in episode number 551. My name is Camden Bucey. I serve as the pastor of Hope Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Grayslake, Illinois. I’m back with Jeff Waddington, who serves as stated supply at Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Lansdowne Pennsylvania. I’m advocating that we now call it Orthoknox Presbyterian Church. Camden Bucey: 00:33 Welcome back Jeff, it’s good to have you with us. Jeff Waddington: 00:35 Good to be here, Orthoknox Presbyterian Church, that would save time. Camden Bucey: 00:40 That would save some time. We’re thankful for you joining us and for your ministry down there. Jeff Waddington: 00:40 Glad to be here. Camden Bucey: 00:45 We also have with us Adam York, our friend, who is the pastor of Providence OP in Kingwood Texas. Welcome back Adam, it’s good to speak with you. Adam York: 00:55 Well what a blessing it is to be here with your brothers. Camden Bucey: 00:57 Yeah, it’s good to have you back on this side of the podcast divide. We have Proclaiming Christ, one of our favorite programs out there, alongside Theology Simply Profound, and then we have Christ The Center, as our three regular weekly programs. We’re delighted that the those are going strong, but to have Adam, who is a regular on Proclaiming Christ come on over here to Christ The Center, is always a delight. We need not have dividing walls like the Jews and Gentiles did prior to the work of Christ. Adam York: 01:30 We’re tearing down the dividing wall of hostility. Camden Bucey: 01:33 Yeah, no hostility here, but it just so happens the way that we often schedule. I guess Jim and Glenn are flipping over, they’re regulars over on PC2. So it’s good to have you with us Adam, and we’re glad that you brought with you a wonderful topic. Today we’re going to be speaking about the impeccability of the Lord Jesus Christ, which is an issue of whether or not Jesus was capable of sinning in his human nature, and all of the details and the attendant circumstances therein. Camden Bucey: 02:07 So we’re going to speak about that. It’s a probably more contentious issue than you think. But there are different people, even within the reform community that have differing views. So we hope to unpack that and speak about the importance of Christ’s impeccability and what that actually means, in just a few minutes. But I do want to mention that Christ The Center is listener supported, and we do rely on the generous support of our listeners and our viewers, everyone involved with what we’re doing here to help us to produce and distribute all of our programs, free of charge, as well as to host events and do some other things. Camden Bucey: 02:41 We’ve got a lot planned for reform forum over the next six to 12 months. We’re very excited about the things going on. But one of those big things is our theology conference, October 5th through 7th, here in Grayslake, where are our topic this year is: Seeing God, The Deeper Protestant Conception, Aquinas, Bart, Vos & the Beatific Vision. Camden Bucey: 03:02 We’ve gotten a lot of interest on Facebook, people are taking a look at possibly coming and asking their friends if it would be a good event to come to. I do want to encourage people to check it out. We have a lot of information on the website. If you go to reformforum.org, there’s a big ole’ banner right on the front homepage. You can click on that and go to our event information. It may sound like an esoteric subject we’re going to bring it down to the level of people that are going to be there in attendance, we’re not just going to be speaking about abstract things, these are things that really matter, that really matter. And the beatific vision, more or less, is that wonderful blessing that we will enter into when our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returns. And when we see him, we will be like him, First John 3:2. Camden Bucey: 03:48 The question is how is that? And there are several theological options, that have been presented, even within the reformed community, you know. And there are many people that would say that we participate in the divine essence, our intellect perceives and participates in the divine essence, so that we behold it, not just by knowing and understanding it, but in one way, shape or form, namely by participation, becoming god. And that might seem like wacko and out there, but that is a [inaudible 00:04:19] view, and we’re going to develop that. Camden Bucey: 04:22 We’ve all been reading a ton of Thomas and reading Thomas himself on this subject, and learning quite a bit, so we hope to share that research with people. But on the far other end, you might ask: Well, does God somehow change himself in order to accommodate this new blessed relationship? And then we of course have the Bartian side of things, where God identifies himself with humanity through the revelatory Christ event, you know, in God’s time for us. Camden Bucey: 04:51 So these are extremely practical issues, we’re not just speaking about things that engage the abstract mind, but things that, this is where the rubber meets the road, this is where theology matters. And how we answer these questions, how we develop them, and then what we do about it, has a lot to do with the work of the church. And we want to speak about those things. It’s a little bit of a foretaste. But if you go to the conference page, you can see not only a schedule of events, titles and the speakers who will be in attendance, but also we’re working on providing very succinct thesis statements for each lecture, and then in some cases also a brief little abstract or summary for the topic. Camden Bucey: 05:33 So our early bird registration is in effect until the end of August. You can come to the main conference session for $55. It’s gonna be a full day and a lot of wonderful material for $55. We also have some tickets available for our VIP dinner that Friday night, where you can come, and we’re gonna have roughly about 25 people at a very long single table. But we’re gonna hear a lecture from Danny Olinger on the nature and destiny of from Vos to Gaffin. He’s going to be speaking. It’s gonna be a wonderful kind of Vos event. And there’s a surprise in store, we’re working hard. Not quite ready to announce it, because we want to get a few things finished and a few things ready to make sure that we can deliver. But we’re looking forward to it. All of this online, October 5th through 7th. Camden Bucey: 06:26 You can learn more at reformforum.org. And also save the date, I don’t want to overload everybody, listen in, and don’t want to talk forever, we want to get through our subject. But save the date, April 1st through April 6th in Wimberley Texas, that’s the year 2019, for those who might be listening many years into the future. But the first week of April 2019, we are going to have an entirely new format of an event, something we’ve never done before. And we’re going to have a seminar that’s going to be taught, April 2nd, 3rd and 4th. So in the day, and so at the late morning, probably around 10:00 or so, we’re gonna have two half hour lectures by Lane Tipton is teaching the class, it’s going to be in some respects an intro to reformed theology/biblical theology. Camden Bucey: 07:18 He’s gonna teach 12 total, 30 minute sessions that we are going to record on video and eventually turn into an adult Sunday school course. If you want to be part of that, if you want to be there, come and visit us. We’re gonna host the event at the Old Glory Ranch in Wimberley, Texas. But we also will be renting out cabins, they’re really kind of tiny houses, they’re not rustic cabins, but cabins on site in Wimberley, Texas, where reform forum people will be staying. And you can also rent a cabin and stay on site where not only will you attend the sessions in the daytime, but you also can can spend time with us, hang out with us over dinner, barbecue, whatever we’re doing in the mornings and evenings. So that’s gonna be a wonderful event. We’re gonna have more information on that and registration available soon. But save the date, April 1st through 6th, 2019. Camden Bucey: 08:15 Okay guys, I think that’s enough of my marketing. But I just can’t talk enough about these things, I’m so excited about what we’re able to do. It’s kind of a new era in reform forum, and we’re very thankful for the ways that the Lord has provided for us, so that we are able to support the church in her work of the great commission. She’s been given that mandate by the Lord to make disciples of men. Then we also are designed to support the church specifically by assisting her in presenting every person mature in Christ. That’s our mission statement, right out of Colossians 128. And everything we do is directed toward that, helping people know Jesus better, through a radical consistency to scripture. So that’s our all-encompassing idea, and we want you to be part of that too, everybody who’s listening. So one way to do that is, come to an event. We’d be happy to meet you. Camden Bucey: 09:08 So brothers, one thing that’s important know about our Lord Jesus, is that he was perfect, he was not a sinner. He became sin on our behalf, so that he would also die to sin and triumph over it through his death and resurrection. But he committed no sin. But the question isn’t within orthodoxy, I should say within orthodoxy, the question is not did Christ sin? We’re on a different level if that’s the question we’re going to talk about. Camden Bucey: 09:36 But today, we’re not asking the question did Christ sin? We’re asking the question, was it possible for Christ to sin, and then maybe to put a finer point on it, was it possible for him to sin in his humanity. So those are some of the issues, but Adam I’d like for you to introduce to us, because you brought to us an older article, that that’s now been collected into book form, we’re reading it on Google books, by the Reverend [F. W. Kramer 00:10:07], The Impeccability Of The Lord Jesus Christ. It appeared, I believe, if my info is correct here, in the reformed quarterly review, volume 26, April 1879. Camden Bucey: 10:20 So Adam, how’d you find this, and why has this been on your mind lately? Adam York: 10:25 Well yes, and so it’s an older article, but it’s a good article. And the reason why I came to this brothers, is because in seminary, going back to my seminary days, I can remember my beloved professor Dr. Robert Strimple, addressing this topic. He spoke about it in his lecture notes. And we might also get a link to that, I think that is available online, that may be helpful. Camden Bucey: 10:57 I’m listening to a class of his now, I’ve imported into one of my apps on my phone, and that’s kind of my running listening and driving listening now. He’s brilliant, love Dr. Strimple. Adam York: 11:11 Now with respect to this question, unfortunately he decided, or fortunately, whatever way you want to look at it, I don’t believe he actually lectures on this topic on the MP3’s, he gave an outline. Most of the outline is kind of fill in the blank, very scant. But this section on impeccability is completely filled out, his full thoughts on this. And he simply assigned it as a matter of required reading to show up on the test, but because not being able to cover everything in class, he picked and chose. Adam York: 11:49 But I found him to be imminently clear, as always very good. And I didn’t really give it much more thought, until I got into the pastorate, and I found that I would make just really occasional references to Christ’s impeccability, not only that he was sinless, but that he was unable to sin, and it was a little befuddling to people, they weren’t sure about that. Is that right? Is that orthodox? Do we really hold to that? So I found the need to go into a little more depth on it, at least on a pastoral level. And I’ll just sort of stop at that. There’s more I could say, but it- Camden Bucey: 12:39 Well it’s an important point, and it is kind of befuddling to many of the people in churches, but not just the members in churches, but also ministers and others. There is debate about this issue, and very well respected men, people that we look up to in many ways, and people that are very reliable theologians, have even had different answers to this. Camden Bucey: 13:02 We hope to discuss this, you know, with great charity today. But Adam shared with us a video clip from a 2012 Ligonier event, where R. C. Sproul and Sinclair Ferguson were speaking on this issue, and taking the view that we would not hold. So this isn’t to say that everyone has the same view top to bottom, even within our [inaudible 00:13:25] circles as it were, but that there are some differences. But we want to raise that issue and start to look into this, and see not only what people’s answers are to the questions, but maybe some of their motivation for answering that way. And then, when we start to unpack this, you know, at a very deep level, I hope that we can see and arrive at a more consistent systematic theology. Camden Bucey: 13:50 It’s not only the answers that we provide, but we need to be thoroughly reformed in the way we get there, in our method. And I think what we may find when we start to look at people who want to affirm the impeccability of our Lord’s humanity, that the conclusions are arising from a slight misstep in the way they consider our Lord in his divine human nature. Adam York: 14:16 We could say that they arrived at their conclusion perhaps out of a legitimate concern, and that is that they think that the doctorate of the impeccability of the Lord Jesus Christ undermines the reality of his temptations. In other words, the temptations become a show, a charade if you will, a farce or a sham, I think some of the words that appear in the article. Camden Bucey: 14:48 Or make him somehow subhuman. We wan to to affirm entirely that Christ has assumed a true full human nature. A true body and a reasonable soul. Adam York: 15:02 And the charge that kind of bubbles up to the surface, both in the Kramer article and interestingly in Dr. Sproul’s concern. And look, I love Dr. Sproul, learned so much from him. But I think I’d have to part ways from him on this, but the concern is that if you affirm an impeccable Christ, you’re affirming a docetic Christ, docetic in he only appeared to be [inaudible 00:15:34]. Camden Bucey: 15:36 And the other side is, we also don’t want to affirm a Nestorian Christ, or a Nestorian Christ. Adam York: 15:41 Exactly. Camden Bucey: 15:43 So if we want to throw terms out there, we can play that game. Adam York: 15:49 Our argument in a nutshell, is going to be, and this is probably important so that folks don’s lose the forest for the trees, our argument has to do with the hypostatic union and the integrity of the person of Christ. And so if you go down this road, you end up sundering, and that’s the reference to Nestorianism, but you end up separating the divine and human nature, so that they’re no longer united in one person. Camden Bucey: 16:22 Let’s back up a little bit, we’ll slow down and start walking into this, because these are all the things at stake, and I hope people are interested in this and realize the significance of what we’re speaking about. This is very important material. Camden Bucey: 16:35 So impeccability here is this idea that Christ, not only he didn’t sin, but also that he is unable to sin in his human nature. But here let’s speak about the hypostatic union. Maybe Jeff, you can describe to us very briefly what the hypostatic union is and sketch that out for us, so that we have all of these proper categories, orthodox, confessional, ecumenical categories in our minds. Jeff Waddington: 17:01 So the hypostatic union is the belief that the Son of God, the Word in John Chapter one, took the second person of the Trinity, the trine, in God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, became incarnate, that is in time, took to himself to use the language of the Westminster Standards and earlier doctoral standards, a true body and a reasonable soul. So that in one person, so we don’t have a schizophrenic Christ, we have one person with two natures. Those two natures, the human and the divine are able to retain their properties and integrity, all the while being united in one person. And so we can say things about the person, that may seem odd if- Jeff Waddington: 18:00 That may seem odd if we were just to think about the natures. In other words, Paul, I think in Acts Chapter 2 talks about God shedding his blood. Of course, God as a spirit doesn’t have a body apart from the incarnation, and therefore, has no blood to shed. But that’s because Paul is talking about, has in view the incarnation of the son of God and his death on the cross Jeff Waddington: 18:28 Sometimes we’ll say that that’s speaking improperly. Doesn’t mean wrongly. It just means improperly in terms of technical understanding of these matters. So you have the two natures in the one person. Remember that the person of the son, there’s not two persons. It’s the … Make sure I get this right, Camden. There is the an-hypostatic and then there’s the en-hypostatic. Camden Bucey: 19:02 Yeah, it’s basically the similar idea. I think the positive one being a negator. The ‘an’ is the negative. Jeff Waddington: 19:10 That is the human nature of Christ didn’t exist apart from the union. Camden Bucey: 19:14 Right. Right. Yes. Jeff Waddington: 19:15 And The person of the son, that is t
