This episode we discuss Fetal Pain with John Bockmann the coauthor of "Reconsidering Fetal Pain," (Journal of Medical Ethics, 2020). https://jme.bmj.com/content/46/1/3
Here are some papers I discussed:
- Feinstein, et. al (2016): "Preserved emotional awareness of pain in a patient with extensive bilateral damage to the insula, anterior cingulate, and amygdala" https://tinyurl.com/4n7ev6wm
- Salomons & Iannetti (2016): "The 'pain matrix' in pain-free individuals. https://tinyurl.com/pskdvks7 " Iannetti complained we had misappropriated his work. https://tinyurl.com/26j5knsf
Other relevant papers:
- Thill (2021): "Fetal pain in the first trimester" https://tinyurl.com/2p8ps25s
- It's a detailed review by my good friend, and along with Maureen Condic's amicus brief for Dobbs, probably the best representation of current fetal pain research. https://tinyurl.com/yc2exa3x
Monica Snyder, is executive director of Secular Pro-Life. https://tinyurl.com/yjpw6zwz https://secularprolife.org/team/
John Bockmann Twitter threads on fetal pain and abortion remain. https://tinyurl.com/c54szycb
My keys to discussing fetal pain:
- First, instead of chasing an impossible standard of evidence (and in addition to engaging the emotions with the history of denying infant and animal pain, as discussed earlier), I would ask something like: "What would count as evidence of fetal pain, if it existed?"
- This question, in my experience, typically ends the discussion. Perhaps fetal pain skeptics aren't used to thinking about the topic in these terms.
- I think coordinated pain behaviors and neuroendocrine response, in context of injury, must be considered as evidence of pain in the fetus, just as it is in the neonate and adult.
- Lack of these responses wouldn't rule out fetal pain, but it would make fetal pain highly questionable https://tinyurl.com/yrm5sf2f https://tinyurl.com/35pa7fnf
- Then, if the conversation continues, I think these 3 things are especially pertinent:
1) the updated IASP definition, which explicitly allows for animal pain (and implicitly, perhaps unwittingly, for fetal pain) https://tinyurl.com/yckw78ak
2) Fetal behavioral studies via 4D ultrasound from Bernardes and others before her (i.e. Prechtl, Piontelli) that, like Jean Piaget's studies on infants and Konrad Lorenz's ethological studies on animals, demonstrate fetal psychology, not just "reflex," by any standard measure https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/uog.23709
3) The unwitting subjugation of what I call "cortical necessity" to studies of behavior--the most obvious example of which is probably Feinstein's 2016 study on preserved emotional awareness mentioned above https://tinyurl.com/22rxjzvm
Other thoughts:
- Humans seem to be born far earlier in our development than most mammals. That means the fetus-versus-neonate dichotomy is false--not only because of the 21-22 week micropreemies we see in the NICU, which are clearly fetal, but also because the full-term neonate is also essentially fetal. Fetus-versus-neonate is irrelevant. https://tinyurl.com/3kyptrtf
- It's theory of mind which has enabled us to care for such helpless infants by interpreting their cues and anticipating their needs; theory of mind which has allowed our species to survive and thrive. And it's precisely this theory of mind that allows us to infer pain in fetuses. https://tinyurl.com/7jyj68yf https://tinyurl.com/29swpjrx I think the alternative is solipsism. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism To Subscribe To My Patreon For Exclusive Content: https://patreon.com/conservativeatheistpodcast?utm_medium=clipboard_copy&utm_source=copyLink&utm_campaign=creatorshare_creator