Trigger Warning: in our conversation, we discuss chronic health conditions, diet, and body measurements. Please take care of yourselves as you listen and avoid if these topics might be triggering for you.

Everyone, please welcome Katie Stone to Continued Conversations! Katie and I were connected through a friend of mine, Alia Parise, who I previously spoke with on Continued Conversations. (Thank you, Alia - we love you!) Katie is also a fellow fit model and print model, and when she had mentioned she has a condition called adenomyosis that she is starting to talk more publicly about, I knew we had to chat.

After all she’s been through with her condition, Katie’s outlook on her life and her relationship to her body now is extremely inspiring. She opens up about her story and shares so beautifully all that she’s gone through that led her to where she’s at now in terms of how she’s relating to her body. She shares so much about her own story in our conversation, and I know she hopes to reach others in doing so too. [Keep an eye out because this woman is going to write a book one day!!!]

In our conversation, we discuss…

* Katie’s health journey that led to her adenomyosis diagnosis

* Educating yourself and caring for your body through that lens while struggling with a chronic health condition becomes your part-time or full-time job

* Radical acceptance of her pain, coupled with science and spirituality, allowed her to begin to heal her body

* The Dutch Test gave her a breakdown of her hormones

* Having to give up coffee, even though she loves it so much - the sacrifices she has had to make to feel good in her body

* How she deeply listened to her body when it told her not to get a hysterectomy

* Katie’s serendipitous discovery of her doctor, who changed everything (who’s also named Katie)

* The toll stress, coupled with genetics, diet, and lifestyle, can truly take on our bodies

* How to cope when feeling out of control in your own body

* Katie’s journy towards opening up about her story and listening to her own heart

* Being honest with a client (or anyone, really) instead of pretending everything is okay

Katie’s vulnerability in sharing her story was admirable. She got into the nitty-gritty of the intersection of science and spirituality when it comes to how she is healing her body. Despite her journey and all she’s been through, Katie is such a light of a human, and I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation!

“ I want other women to understand that they’re not the only ones going through this. That it is so confusing, and it’s frustrating, and I get it. And I have just been the type of person where I don’t accept just giving up in my life. I cannot accept that. I cannot accept, “Well, I guess I’m gonna have to remove my entire uterus because there’s nothing else I can do, and I’m at the mercy of people telling me what I should be doing." I just – and trust me, I have worked with amazing gynecologists, you know, just people who really do care about me and my wellbeing. But this is just how the world works. You do have to do your own research. You do have to find people you work with, that you work well together. You do need to approach it in a holistic sense, in my opinion, if you don’t want to go down that route.”

- Katie Stone

Below is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at around the 28-minute and 2-second mark:

Katie Stone: I’ve had to navigate through all of this while still doing all of the work that I do. And but, you know, health comes first and foremost because it affects everything else in my life. So it’s like, I know that I need to prioritize this, even if that means that maybe I don’t get a casting one day because I’m just not the right measurements because maybe I’ve been eating a certain way for a few months, and it’s actually made me smaller, and now I’m not those measurements anymore, but I want to bounce back, you know? And so, it’s just a matter of being aware of what’s going on and understanding that you have to just love your body. You have to love yourself going through this. You really do, because it’s difficult and I don’t want to make it worse for myself ultimately.

Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely. I think that that’s such an important piece of the conversation, that even when you are dealing with so many of these things that are so out of your control – granted, I do think that just living in a body, generally speaking, we think we can control all these little things about ourselves, but we can’t. And then you add a condition like adenomyosis on top of that, and you’re like, “Wow, I really have no control,” especially with the elimination from your diet and trying different things here and there. It’s like, oh my god, it seems as if it’s what the average person experiences, yet tenfold.

Katie Stone: Yeah. Yeah, it really is. And again, people sometimes have no idea that I go through this because I’m not the type to complain a lot. I’m not the type to just, you know, publicly share so much about all of the details that I go through, because it is very sensitive stuff, and I want to share it because I want other people to be aware, first of all. And I want other women to understand that they’re not the only ones going through this. That it is so confusing, and it’s frustrating, and I get it. And I have just been the type of person where I don’t accept just giving up in my life. I cannot accept that. I cannot accept, “Well, I guess I’m gonna have to remove my entire uterus because there’s nothing else I can do, and I’m at the mercy of people telling me what I should be doing.”

I just – and trust me, I have worked with amazing gynecologists, you know, just people who really do care about me and my wellbeing. But this is just how the world works. You do have to do your own research. You do have to find people you work with, that you work well together. You do need to approach it in a holistic sense, in my opinion, if you don’t want to go down that route, and I didn’t. It’s not specifically because I want to have kids or anything that. It’s more so because this is my body, and that’s such a drastic move to have to remove something completely from your body. And then when you think about it – and I know that this has helped so many women out there, you know, having that type of surgery, and I completely get that and support people in their decision, no matter what they do. But for me personally, I just didn’t want to go down that route. And you know, when you remove an organ from your body, that doesn’t necessarily mean you completely solve the problem, you know? Because you’re not understanding, again, why the inflammation is happening to begin with and what’s going on with your hormones. You could still be doing things like, you know, stress levels and things that, that are affecting you even if you do remove your uterus.

So I just like, logically just thought like, “Well, but I want to know what’s going on in my body, you know, and I want to figure that out.” I want to have a working relationship with my body versus thinking of it as something just like, “Okay, I’ll just remove this,” you know, as a project or something.

Megan Gill: Yeah, like a curiosity about deepening that connection to your body that had not been present for so long. And I don’t mean to say that so black and white, but just getting more and more connected. this body that you felt you were disconnected to previously when you had first started going through all of this is deeply important, and that makes so much sense and is so beautiful. And I’m also curious about, earlier you mentioned that there was a whisper telling you not to have the surgery and not to remove your uterus.

Katie Stone: Yes. Yeah.

Megan Gill: I’m curious to hear more about that because that’s also like – I love that you listen to that. That is deep listening to what your body is telling you. And I think that so many people cannot or do not listen to themselves in that way, you know?

Katie Stone: Yeah, no, that’s an amazing point, and I’m really glad you brought that up because that was a really big turning point for me because I was at the end of the line. I was just like, “Okay, I don’t know what else to do.” I was so frustrated. Megan, I was so frustrated.

You know, it was probably summer of last year. Yeah, summer of last year, and I was so frustrated at that point, and I exhausted everything, or so I thought at that time, and I was just like, “You know what? Forget it. I’m just gonna get the surgery.” I had scheduled it; I actually had scheduled the surgery. I put it on the calendar, you know, with the surgery scheduler and and everything, you know. And then, because it takes a long time to schedule those types of surgeries, I had a few months, and I was like, “Okay, if I don’t figure it out in the next few months, I already have it on the calendar, and I’ll do it.”

So that really put my butt into gear to figure it out. And I have to give a giant shout-out to my mom, because she heavily helped me throughout this. And she was very much on my side of like, “Whatever you want to do, I support. But I do think we should give it one last shot just to see if we can find someone out there who specializes in this.” Because I had talked to nutritionists in the past. I had talked to more holistic types of doctors, Chinese, you know, medicine, and things that. I’ve done so many things, you know, acupuncture and things that. And it just, nothing was working enough. And that’s why I was like, “Well, I tried that, so why would I keep trying that?” So that’s why I was just at this point where I was like, “Screw it. I’m just gonna get the surgery.” But then my mom was like, “Let’s just try it one more time. Like, what do we have to lose? Just one more time, just maybe do a little bit more research. You have a different perspective now. If you can find someone to help you, great.”

So then I searched for just dieticians or nutritionists – because I know there’s a difference – but dieticians who specialize in this menstrual condition, I searched for that in Los Angeles, and there were about five to ten that came up that I looked into a little further. I contacted a few. I set up a few calls with them, consultations. I talked to three different people, ultimately. One, she was really great. Wasn’t crazy about her systems, but she had amazing knowledge. Another one I talked to, she was great as well, but she ended up telling me, “I don’t think I’m the right person for you, but I do know someone in my network who I think would be really great if you talk to her instead.” And she said, “I don’t know if she’s taking new clients, but it might be worth a shot just to share your story with her and see what happens.”

So then I emailed her, and her name’s also Katie. I emailed her immediately, and I shared my story with her as to – I was just – I just gave everything I got. I was like, “This is what I’ve gone through. This is what I need. Can you help me?” And she messaged me back pretty fast and said, “Let’s work together. I want to help you.” And I was just like – my heart was just like, “Oh my god, thank god. Thank god I found someone. I hope this works out,” you know? Because I still didn’t fully know. And then we got on a call. I loved her style and her system. Her brain works mine. I was like, “This is great.” You know, she had worked with a few, just a few, other women who had this condition and successfully, you know, got them stable to the point in their lives where it’s just more manageable, you know, and that’s all I wanted. I just wanted to be more manageable. I know this is something I’m gonna have to deal with until I go through menopause. That’s just how it works, you know, because you can’t just completely get rid of this, as far as I know. So that’s all I wanted. And so I’ve been working with her since then.

And again, she’s someone that I had to find on my own. It’s very specific to my needs, and everything that she has treated me with, very specific. For other women, I highly recommend that they talk to a dietician if they’re going through anything remotely similar to what I’m going through and get some testing done. A Dutch test is fantastic for that. I even also recently did a gut biome test where I tested out to see what’s going on, you know, in my intestines, because that has a direct impact on. Your hormones as well, you know, your digestive system. If that’s all out of whack too, then – the two go hand in hand. They work together .your hormones and your reproductive system and all of that, plus what’s going on in your gut. So I knew that that was important.

We recently did that too. And again, mind-blowing data that I learned just from going through that, and her going through the information with me. You know, because a lot of the times too, when you’re online, there are so many people out there just trying to be like, “Oh, this is what you should do. This is the product you should try. This is the supplement mission to try,” and it’s overwhelming. And that’s why I think it’s so important to find the right person to work with you. I don’t think there’s one answer or one product or one solution that’s gonna solve everything, because I’ve been there, done that, and it’s just not the case. So you have to have it specialized to your body and what’s going on specifically inside of you. But I highly recommend to do that testing, and of course, work with your doctors at the same time, but then also work with the dietician to help you get that testing done, to understand what’s exactly going on in your body, so that you can get a plan tailored specifically to you.

So we ordered some supplements and changed up my diet, incorporated more breathwork into my life, and all that. And I’m till going through the process, but it has significantly improved since working with her, significantly improved. First of all, I’m not bleeding the entire month. I’m not dealing with just this bleeding, this constant bleeding. There was a time where I was – it wasn’t heavy every single day, but I was bleeding every single day for a month at one point.

Megan Gill: Oh, my gosh.

Katie Stone: So I was like, if we could at least just get to the point where I’m just having a period and not like – great! You know, and we got to that point because of the supplements and just understanding that my hormones weren’t communicating properly together, they weren’t working like they should. And so, by getting to that first issue and solving that, I was like, okay, now I can just be a normal person, and just, yes, I’m still gonna have these horrible periods, but at least I’m not dealing with this every single day, you know?

So, yeah. So it just took a matter of just me and my refusal to give up on myself and understand that there’s this intuition in all of us. There is something that you feel inside of you, and from my experience. When I don’t listen to it, it’ll creep back in at some point, and it’s just gonna be like, “Hey, come on. I know you hear me. Are you gonna listen to me? Are you gonna use your brain too much, or are you gonna listen to your heart?” You know? And so, that’s kind of what I’ve been practicing more, just listening to my heart more than trying to brain my way through. Yes, of course, you have to use your brain too, you know? But I think it’s both heavily. Because there were so many times where I thought, “No, I’m just gonna get the surgery. Like, I don’t want to go through this anymore. What if I try all these things and they don’t work? You know, what if I just waste all this time, and I could have just gotten the surgery and been done with it,” and all of that.

There were so many times where I felt that, but again, there was this intuition, and again, my mom that just kept creeping back in and telling me, “Just wait. Just wait a little bit longer. Just try this first and see how you feel.”

And I literally, I think it was today or yesterday where I canceled the surgery appointment finally. It’s off my calendar because I said to myself, “I’m not gonna do it. I’m done. I, for sure, have made up my mind that I’m not going down that route because of the results that I’ve seen so far, and I am just scared as to what that would even look like for me if I did get the surgery, afterward, meaning, you know? Because there’s so much that could come up from that, during and after. So many women have had successful procedures done. I get that. But for me, I’m just listening to my heart and just realizing that that just wasn’t the right path for me, and to just do everything I possibly can to make sure that I feel good and solid about my decision and moving forward.

Megan Gill: I think that, wow, that is extremely profound. And I also just want to point out that you stopped running from your body. You stopped, to me, symbolically getting the surgery and removing this thing from your body is still running, right? And instead, you chose to take the potentially more difficult route and the potentially longer route and to become more embodied and to turn inward, and to really try to figure out going on, and to work with your body and to nurture your body in certain ways, and to give it what’s going to help it function better for you, and to maybe eliminate something that you love so much, but that’s not helping it function in the way that you need it to. And I just think that that is extremely admirable and a really beautiful part of your story.

Katie Stone: Thank you.

Megan Gill: And I just wanted to reflect that back to you. Sitting here listening, I’m like, that’s incredible because it’s sometimes so much easier to just run from the thing and just wipe your hands clean of it, even if it potentially might not have been the ultimate solve, like you were saying, right?

Katie Stone: Yeah.

Megan Gill: So I just really commend you for making the conscious decision to work through this condition and to work with your body and to hold your own hand all the way through it.

Katie Stone: Thank you. I really appreciate you saying that too, because again, when you’re going through all this, it can feel – I mean I know I have a lot of people in my life who care about me and who are supportive and all of that, but it can feel very lonely sometimes just because I am literally the only one who knows exactly what I’m going through and what’s right for me, because I’m the one experiencing it.

““There were so many times where I just wanted to run away from my own body. I felt like my body had betrayed me. I felt so disconnected because I couldn’t understand why this was happening to me. I couldn’t understand what I needed to do about it. I couldn’t understand why all the things that I had been doing, they weren’t enough. And you know, I hit my head so many times on the wall just trying to figure it out, you know? And then finally, over time, I just surrendered to it. I just accepted the fact that this is just where I’m at in my life right now. This is just what I’m going through. I don’t have all the answers. It’s okay. I’m gonna love myself throughout this process, even though I hate it sometimes, and even though, you know, there were so many times where I was just sitting there being like, “Why me? Like, why is this happening to me?” I didn’t know anyone else that had been going through anything like I had been going through. So I felt very alone sometimes.”

- Katie Stone

Katie Stone is a Los Angeles based model and speaker navigating adenomyosis while building a career that depends on her body. While managing severe pain and bleeding that required four blood transfusions, she pursued conventional medical treatments and gradually incorporated holistic approaches in an effort to better understand her body and find sustainable stability. She speaks about the intersection of chronic illness, identity, and learning to build trust with a body that doesn’t always feel predictable.

Follow Katie’s Journey on Instagram!

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A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:

* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.

* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.

* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.

Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!

While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers.

Trigger Warning: in our conversation, we discuss themes around body image, diet culture, and weight loss. Please take care of yourselves as you listen and avoid if these topics might be triggering for you.

Everyone please welcome Alena Acker to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Alena is another wonderful actor and human that I met through Amy McNabb’s The Spark Membership, and I was so thrilled to sit down and chat with her. I’m so grateful to Alena for her kind heart and vulnerability in our conversation to share some opposing ideas when it comes to body image and general health, prevention, and wellbeing, in hopes that it reaches someone who needs to hear it. Alena also shares a pretty incredible perspective on being a fat actor and hoping to be the representation for others that she needed when she was younger. I know you’re going to enjoy hearing about her body image story, and just get ready to soak in all of the wisdom she shares in our conversation.

In our conversation, we discuss…

* Reclaiming the word “fat” and not demonizing it

* Weight cycling and the impacts of the generational weight loss cycle

* Alena’s choice to stop dieting and accept her body after experiencing the loss of her dad

* The tie between Alena’s acceptance of herself and her acting career taking off

* Being the representation on screen that she needed when she was a kid (that we ALL needed when we were kids)

* The inundation of cultural ideals we’re almost brainwashed by

* The nuance of accepting your body now, in this moment, and still taking the steps to prevent predisposition to heart disease by way of GLP-1

* The fear, as an actor, of your body and appearance drastically changing, and how that could affect your career

* Doing what is best for you and your body, and trusting yourself when it comes to knowing what’s best

I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation!

“I want to be around for a long time, and I want to be able to tell these stories. And if my body becomes different, then it’s just, you know, a different body type that I’m representing. And I’ve always felt like sort of a weirdo and an oddball, and I still get to represent the weirdos and oddballs in the world at any weight. It’s been an interesting challenge because we think of loving ourself at any weight, or any shape or any size, as having more to do with if we get larger, if we get older, you know? But it’s like if you’re gonna do it, then you have to do it all the way, no matter what direction your body changes in.”

- Alena Acker

Below is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at around the 1-minute & 52-second mark:

Alena Acker: It’s interesting. When I was younger, people would say, “Oh, you’re not fat,” or “You’re not that fat.” And what they meant was “You’re not a bad person. I don’t think that you’re lazy or undisciplined or bad,” because those are often – or at least back then in the eighties and nineties, especially, those were things that came along with the word fat. So yeah, it’s one of those things where I’m I think it’s okay to be fat, and I think it’s okay to say that you’re fat. And that it, yeah, just shouldn’t be negative.

Megan Gill: Right. I absolutely agree with you. I saw this post recently about the belly and how it’s also demonized in a similar sense. Whereas, if you have a soft belly and if you have a soft body in general, that you are seen as weak or not disciplined enough. And it’s very much still a theme today. As deep as it went, in the nineties and early two thousands, it’s no, it’s still present here with us today. Yeah.

Alena Acker: It is. Yeah, it is. It feels we’re in a rough moment with this right now because it did seem I don’t know, a few years ago, five, ten years ago, this movement – at least in my perception of things – it seemed oh, there’s this movement that’s really gathering steam, that’s all about body positivity and body diversity and, you know, being able to love yourself and your body regardless of the size and shape of it. Now it feels we’re sort of, I don’t know, regressing a little bit, and we’re in a moment where it seems there’s a big moment that’s sort of trying to get rid of all the diversity in our country. It’s really, really sad. It’s really awful. And, you know, I think body diversity is, you know, a part of that too.

Megan Gill: I absolutely agree, and it is really scary. We are in trying times, and it’s sad because, in terms of body liberation, it’s like we have come so far, and yet we aren’t able to fully live freely within that because, here we are again, yet having to fight back at the patriarchy and fight back here and fight back there. The conversation’s being had because we’re still in the cycle of the fight instead of just being able to live, which is frustrating because it did feel like, for so long, within the last span of ten years, I’d say, and during the pandemic body positivity and body neutrality were becoming such big important liberating movements and now it’s just hard to see it…

Alena Acker: And it was so inspiring for me to see younger people than myself, because I’m middle-aged, you know, just really embracing and sharing these ideas and being like, “Oh, wow. What a different and wonderful way to think,” and it helped me to sort of look at and face some of my own internalized fatphobia, you know? So yeah. So it’s a real bummer that we’re kind of in, you know, one of those sort of valleys of the fight, I guess. You know, things go up and down, and it feels like we’re in a bit of a down spot right now, which is rough.

Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely. As an actor, I’m curious, as someone who is using your body as your instrument onstage, on screen, probably daily in auditions, and just having it be such a forefront of your life’s work in that sense and your career, I am curious – and this is also kind of a convoluted question here – but how your relationship to your body has influenced your work and your career and your journey as an actor?

Alena Acker: Yeah, what a wonderful question. I’m going to take it way back to when I was a kid, because I kind of always knew I wanted to be an actor. It was like I was taken to the touring company production of Cats as a 6-year-old, and I was like, “Hold on. Are you telling me there’s a job where you can act like a cat, and people come and watch you do it and applaud that? Sign me up!” You know, “This is definitely what I want.” But as a young person, I really only focused on theater. I really only thought I could do theater because I just didn’t see hardly any women, especially with my body type, on screen. So it was just, it was I thought these were facts. I was like, “Oh, well, I can’t do film or TV because fat people can’t be on film or TV, so I’m gonna do theater!” And, you know, it didn’t even occur to me at that point that it was a possibility. And, you know, weight has, has kind of always been a part of my life.

My mom put me in a kid’s – I’m getting emotional thinking about this. She put me in a kid’s weight loss program when I was 12 years old. And I’m someone who has weight cycled about five different times in my life, so what I mean by that is I would lose a significant amount of my body weight, let’s say 20-25%, and then gain it back, you know, and then lose it again, and then gain it back. And so, you know, it started at that super young age, and you know, my mom had her own struggles with this, and she was doing what she thought was the best thing for me to help me, you know, to help my health, to help me perhaps not make what she perceived as mistakes that she had made.

And I’m also a lifelong vegetarian. I was a really picky eater as a child, so I think she was also just like – she kind of was like, “What do I feed this kid? I don’t know how to –.” She just kind of didn’t know what to do. And luckily for us, we’ve since had conversations in adulthood where I’ve said, “I need to know that I am okay no matter my weight and no matter the size and shape of my body. That I know you were trying to help me. But what you did was make me feel there was something fundamentally wrong with me.” And that’s, you know, that’s a very harmful thing for a person to feel. And, you know, I can only imagine how much worse it is when you’re at the intersection of if you’re fat and queer and a black or brown person. It’s not great to grow up thinking that you have this deep, deep flaw.

So it was something that I, you know, just didn’t even think about film or TV. My body’s been many different shapes and sizes and weights over the years, but after coming to New York, I started to find a little bit more success in that on-camera world. And I think the industry also just started to open up in those years, and you started to see more people with a wider variety of shapes and sizes. And so, it was like, “Oh, oh, this is something I could do.”

Megan Gill: Wow. Yeah.

Alena Acker: And I eventually reached a point where I started to feel like, you know what?

I’m okay the way that I am. And that, you know, comes from a lot of therapy, a lot of talking to other friends who are fat, just learning, experiencing things.

But I got to a point, I had lost a bunch of weight again in like 2019, and then in 2021, my dad passed away. And it was during the experience of that happening that I gained the weight back because it was it stressful, and nobody wants to sit there and count calories when someone very important to you is dying.

Megan Gill: Wow, yeah.

Alena Acker: And so, it was after that point that I was like I’m done. I’m done with diets. I’m done losing weight and gaining it back again. This is just gonna be it, and what I’m really gonna work on now just accepting who I am no matter what, you know, and sort of unpacking what have these feelings from youth about myself and about having something wrong with myself, just where do they come from and why are they there, and when are they popping up, and how can I reframe them for myself. And so, I really got to this point where I was like I don’t care about that anymore. I can have confidence. I can love myself. It’s normal for a person’s body to change over the course of their life. And I started to see my career take off a little bit more at that point.

So I started booking more commercials, and I got this role in an off-Broadway play. It was a revival of Tennessee Williams’ The Night of the Iguana. And in this play, I had to wear a 1930s, 1940s-style bathing suit onstage for pretty much the entire time. And I felt okay about it, you know? It was really – it was so cool. I was like just like, “Oh, yeah!” And I have, you know, this cellulite on my thighs, and I’m running around. And part of what made that okay for me is that I was like this character does not care. This character gives zero fucks about what anybody else thinks of her. I’m playing a pair of obnoxious tourists, so it was really fun to play this role where she’s just laughing maniacally and running around and driving everybody nuts and just wearing this bathing suit. And it was, I mean, an incredible experience for many reasons.

I got to work with some of my heroes and get to know them, and I now get to call them friends. And these two wonderful actresses who I really think I was put in that dressing room with them because they are both so unapologetic and so wonderful at standing up for themselves. So that was a really wonderful experience. And one of the things that has helped me a lot when I have these moments, because we all have a moment, you know, when you are in a TV show, when you’re on a commercial, you’re not controlling the camera angles, you know? It’s not your own personal Instagram where you’re you know, doing your poses, working your angles. You get to pick out, you know, the best. And even with headshots and things, you get to pick the ones that you before you share them with people to help you decide. So we all have these moments of, “Oh, god, is that what I look like?” Or, “Oh…”

Megan Gill: Yeah, and not to mention when you’re seeing yourself reflected on camera, which, what’s the age-old trope? “The camera adds ten pounds,” or whatever people wanna say, you know?

Alena Acker: Right, I mean, it’s a flattening of a three-dimensional being into two dimensions. So you’re gonna look – it also can feel weird to us to hear our voice recorded back, to sort of see things in this different way than they go on from – than they feel in our own bodies, you know?

Megan Gill: Yeah. Right, yeah.

Alena Acker: But the thing that has really helped me in those moments is to remember that we want to show all of humanity in our TV shows, on our commercials, in the art that we make. That it’s we want to represent everyone, or at least I think the best art that’s out there does that.

Megan Gill: I agree.

Alena Acker: And so, if I’m like, “Oh my god, had no idea I had so many chins,” I can say to myself, “What if there’s somebody out there who sees this, and for a minute, they feel like, “Oh, well that lady on that commercial looks me, so maybe I’m not so bad,” or “So maybe it’s fine,” or “Maybe the way I look is normal,” you know? There could be someone out there who’s excited see me on camera. There could be somebody out there – thankfully, I don’t think it’s quite the way it was when I was a kid, but in a way, I get to be that person that I didn’t really see –

Megan Gill: Oh, that you needed!

Alena Acker: – when I was little. You know?

Megan Gill: Oh, my god, yeah.

Alena Acker: So that feels really exciting to get to represent people who may feel underrepresented in media or to get to reflect back to someone something that feels, you know, representative of them. That’s really exciting. And so, that’s been a really powerful reframe for me is just being able to, anytime I catch myself in one of those moments, be like, “Well, somebody’s gonna feel happy to see someone who looks like me exactly as I look in this particular frame, in this particular project.

Megan Gill: Yeah. That’s so powerful. And someone’s gonna feel seen in seeing you in this way, which is…

Alena Acker: Exactly, exactly.

Megan Gill: Ah, and just even hearing you say that you are being the person on camera, or on screen, who you little-you needed to see. And I think that sometimes the reframes are just so needed to pull us out of our own heads too and to just remind us why we’re doing this thing in the first place.

Alena Acker: Yeah.

Megan Gill: Because it’s so easy – especially when our bodies are the forefront of our work. It’s so easy to – I know from experience, as well, being an actor. We hyper-fixate, over-obsess about what we look like and try to control every little thing, and it’s hard to let go of control and to accept and to say, “Nope. Yep, I I’m gonna show up –.” I’m in my mid-thirties, but I am really, really trying to not give into Botox, so I’m like, “Yeah, yeah, no, it’s okay,” seeing my crow’s feet and my forehead wrinkles. I just got headshots taken a couple weeks ago and got ‘em back, and I was like, “Wow, never seen these forehead wrinkles,” the way I had in that shoot. But I’m doing a similar reframe as you like, yes, no, but for me, and for my mission as an actor, this is good because this is what happens when you age. This is normal for someone in her mid-thirties to have them. We’re gonna roll with it because that’s what we’re doing right now for us. That might not work for somebody else, but yeah, the reframe is really powerful, so thank you for sharing that.

Alena Acker: Yeah, because it’s like how can we get to a point where people feel less pressure to do these things unless they can see an example of what it is, too.

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Alena Acker: And these kinds of decisions are up to people as individuals and what they need to do, but I do feel it’s like people need to know what the alternative looks like. These sort of brainwashing “ideals” that we are inundated with.

Megan Gill: Yes. And what’s interesting is that the way in which we are inundated with them is via the media, and yet here we are in the media trying to counteract that. So it’s just this interesting opposition and nuance that we’re holding here with wow, it all exists under the umbrella of the media. But also I do think it’s really cool and powerful, as actors, to be able to show up in that way and to kind of try to fight back and counteract all of that brainwashing. If we can do anything here during our time as artists, how cool is that, right?

Alena Acker: I mean, I think it’s very cool.

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Alena Acker: And so, it’s interesting though, because I do have a little bit of a curve ball for you.

Megan Gill: Okay, great.

Alena Acker: All of this kind of said. So I’ve gotten to this place where I’m like all right, I can represent people, and I can be happy about that and proud of that. And I can accept my body the way it is now, in this moment, and accept myself for who I am and love myself. And it’s always, I think, gonna be an ongoing thing of remembering to do that, remembering that it’s like, “Okay, I love me. I’m okay the way I am.” You need those reminders. It’s not like you just become cured.

Megan Gill: Yeah, it’s ongoing work, for sure.

Alena Acker: It is ongoing work. But my curve ball is this, which is that a few months ago I found out that I have a genetic predisposition for heart disease. So it’s called Lipoprotein(a). It’s a subfactor of your LDL cholesterol, or a sub-particle, and it’s sticky. So it sticks to your your blood vessels, and it makes you more likely to develop cardiovascular disease, heart disease, stroke, heart attack, you know, things like that, which are serious concerns. Because heart disease kills more people in our country than all the cancers combined each year.

So I found this out, and I saw a cardiologist, and he was like, “So this is a thing that, at this point in medicine, there’s nothing we can do about. There are no medicines or therapies that can change this thing.” And so, when you have this, you really need to attack your other risk factors. And so, he and I, after much discussion and debate, decided to put me on a GLP-1, which I’ve been on for about six weeks now. So this has been a very – it was a really difficult decision. And, you know, this is something where I don’t feel that people have to justify these decisions to anyone.

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Alena Acker: But the reason that I wanna go through it or explain it is that maybe it’ll help somebody else. And I just feel like that’s a pretty hard left turn, right, to go from, “I’m great at any weight,” to “And now I’m taking this weight-loss drug.”

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Alena Acker: And I was just sort of like, “Oh, my god. Do I want to do this? Is this a betrayal now, then, of fat people that I love in my life, the women and people that I’m representing on screen?” it really felt like – I’m like I’ve just gotten to this place where I feel cool, and now I’m gonna change my body again? It was really tough. And it brings up all these things around, well, am I gonna book fewer roles because I’ve sort of experienced this career uptick at a higher weight, and is that gonna affect the way people cast me and the way people see me and all of the little, logistical – you know, I’m gonna need new headshots, and when am I gonna tell my reps.

Megan Gill: All the things.

Alena Acker: Even stuff as wild as I shot this pilot, a small role, a couple of scenes in a pilot back in October, and I don’t know if it’s gonna be picked up to series, and I don’t know if I will be invited back if it does get picked up to series, but I could, because my character is in the workplace of one of the main characters. And so, it’s this thing of, “What if they ask me back, and I look completely different, and then I lose the opportunity because of that?” I really was just sort of spiraling out about how much this is going to change, or could change things. But, ultimately, I just felt this is something I need to do for my health. It’s something where I want to be around for a long time, and I want to be able to tell these stories. And if my body becomes different, then it’s just, you know, a different body type that I’m representing. And I’ve always felt like sort of a weirdo and an oddball, and I still get to represent the weirdos and oddballs in the world at any weight.

It’s been an interesting challenge because we think of loving ourself at any weight or any shape or any size as having more to do with if we get larger, if we get older, you know? But it’s like if you’re gonna do it, then you have to do it all the way, no matter what direction your body changes in.

Megan Gill: Right. Which is hard work, regardless.

Alena Acker: Yeah, it’s an interesting position that I find myself in.

“As a young person, I really only focused on theater. I really only thought I could do theater because I just didn’t see hardly any women, especially with my body type, on screen. So I thought these were facts. I was like, “Oh, well, I can’t do film or TV because fat people can’t be on film or TV, so I’m gonna do theater!” And it didn’t even occur to me at that point that it was a possibility.”

- Alena Acker

Alena Acker is a New York-based actor who often plays characters that seem ordinary at first but are surprisingly complex once you dive deeper. She’s the shy nerd who stands up for herself, the wacky teacher who might actually teach you something, the pious innocent who’s anything but.

TV credits include NBC’s Law and Order, HBO Max’s And Just Like That (The Sex and the City Reboot) and the upcoming FX Pilot Disinherited from Better Call Saul Showrunner Peter Gould.

She has graced international stages performing in plays and musicals - favorite credits include The Off Broadway Revival of Tennessee Williams’ The Night of the Iguana at the Signature Theatre, starring Tim Daly, Daphne Rubin-Vega and Lea DeLaria, directed by Emily Mann; as well as Drama Desk nominated the Ryan Case 1973 and the role of Typhoid Mary in The Trial of Typhoid Mary with Live-In Theater. She also performed at the Gyeonggi English Village theme park in South Korea, delighting family audiences as a clumsy witch, a cheerful unicorn, a menacing pirate and everything in between.

LA Comedy Festival, the NY Fringe Festival, UCB and the PIT audiences know her from Mother Eve’s Secret Garden of Sensual Sisterhood, a musical self-help satire in which she played Rhododendron, a timid woman with low self-esteem who gains confidence and learns to love herself–not without plenty of laughs along the way.

Alena has performed her original character comedy with Characters Welcome, at The PIT and at Second City NYC and has appeared in numerous commercials for well-known brands.

A graduate of the University of Michigan with a double major in Theatre and German Language and Literature, she spent her junior year abroad and speaks fluent German.

Alena lives with her husband and cat Sophie and is a New York City triathlon finisher.

Follow Alena on Instagram

Check out her IMdB

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A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:

* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.

* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.

* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.

Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!

While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers.

Trigger Warning: in our conversation, we discuss ideas relating to diet culture and self-image. Please take care of yourselves as you listen, and please avoid if these topics might be triggering for you.

Everyone please welcome Tatiana Pavela to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Tatiana and I are a both a part of The Spark (Amy McNabb’s mindset-focused membership for ambitious, heart-centered actresses), and it’s fun because she’s a Chicago-based actress, theatre artist, and teaching artist (which is just fun for me because I adore Chicago so much and lived/worked there prior to moving to the beach). I was thrilled to sit down with Tatiana and discuss body image.

When I read this quote on her website, “As a teaching artist, she has worked with students of all ages to guide actors to work through fear, take up space and do the ridiculous,” I knew I was in for a treat with this conversation.

In our conversation, we discuss…

* Working through fear as an actor

* Getting comfortable with being profoundly uncomfortable

* People telling us “no” fuels the fire

* Her changing body leading to an autoimmune disorder

* The realization that she doesn’t have as much control over her body as she once thought she did and coming to terms with that

* The nuance of wanting to accept her body but also wanting it to change

* Our bodies are designed to fail

* Her fearlessness and vulnerability in showing the range of humanity onstage as an actor

* The pressure we put on ourselves to be perfect as actors, but the reality being that these characters we’re playing are inherently imperfect beings (just like all of humanity)

* We are taught to hate our bodies, and we are taught to not listen to our bodies and override them - how this led Tatiana to a post-sickness diagnosis of mono

* Creating space to listen to your voice and hear your body

* We discuss joy and the things we both find joyful in our day-to-day lives

* We have a big chat about delicious food at the end, so grab your snacks ◡̈

I cannot even tell you how many little golden nuggets of wisdom are within this 54-minute conversation - I hope you enjoy this one. Tatiana is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to our bodies as actors, the patriarchy + our societal conditioning, and ultimately coming back to ourselves. She’s also absolutely hilarious and wonderful. I truly, truly cannot wait for you to hear our conversation!

“I’m a fat actor. I would love to be thin. I have tried my entire life to be thin. Sometimes I have been thinner than others, but it’s just like it’s constantly something that I’m wrestling with. And I’ve always questioned, “If I wasn’t an actor, would I have this same relationship?” You know what I mean? And me and my actor friends, when they talk about their mom trying to lose weight or whatever, we’re like, “What does she care? She’s not an actor!” Like, “Live your fat life. Live your midsize life, and stop worrying about —,” you know what I mean? And so, it’s always like — this is so connected. I mean, I do think ultimately it’s like. every woman does feel this. It’s heightened for actors and people that are in front of other people.”

- Tatiana Pavela

Below is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at just after the 22-minute mark:

Tatiana Pavela: I mean, it feels like we’re sliding backwards now, to be honest. But the thing that I’ve been telling myself since – because even when I was “thinner,” I was still larger than everyone else around me. Do you know what I mean? It’s kind of a sign that’syou know, “Tatiana, to a certain extent, you’ve always been this.”

But the thing that I would tell myself, and I still do tell myself, is my goal as an actor is to show the range of humanity as much as possible, and I can do that. You know, and it’s so – yeah, it’s like if I can be as fearless – let’s go back to fear, right? If I can be as fearless onstage, I can be as vulnerable, if I can be like, “Look at this. Look at this heartbreak, look at this. This happened on stage. Look at this, look at this, look at this,” you know? I just did a play, and my goal was how vulnerable can I be every night. Can I shed my skin so that they can see this journey? And it’s just like – yeah, that’s my goal. It’s a challenge to myself. It’s like, “I dare you. I dare you to work through your fear so that you can show more humanity to people.”

Megan Gill: Yeah, because we need it now more than ever.

Tatiana Pavela: Because we need it, and because it’s true. You know what I mean? I’m sure so many people have said this on your podcast, but it’s like we’re out here living our lives. I’m in love. I have a wonderful relationship. So many crazy things have happened to me, good and bad. Do you know what I mean? That it’s just like I’m not just here as, you know, young mom number one auditioning for a Triscuit commercial.

Megan Gill: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly, 100%. And that’s not to say that if you were in a smaller body, that it wouldn’t be “easier,” or that there wouldn’t be more bookability or more roles available, and I fucking hate that so goddamn much.

Tatiana Pavela: Let it out. Let it out!

Megan Gill: Yeah, it’s just – and I also just wanna say that too, because that’s also just a very real part of what’s wrong with the industry and what I would like to change about the industry, if I could. Yeah.

Tatiana Pavela: I mean, it’s hard. It does feel we’re sliding backwards, you know what I mean, in terms of plus-size clothing availability –

Megan Gill: Yes.

Tatiana Pavela: – in stores. I remember when Athleta started offering their plus-size in store, and it was so awesome. I was like, “I’ll give you all my money.” Do you know what I mean? Like this is amazing. This is great. And then when they recently pulled that back, I was like oh man, do you know what I mean? It just happens over and over again where lines are closing or it’s not offered in store. It just feels like a lot of this is moving backwards.

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Tatiana Pavela: And so, how’s your body image now Tatiana? Well, it was better a few years ago.

Megan Gill: Right, right.

Tatiana Pavela: It was better two years ago. But I mean… and then the thing that I can just tell myself is – and it sounds so pretentious to be like, “Oh, I’m gonna be an example to people,” but is that it’s just like, look, I love when I’ve seen fat women onstage, you know what I mean, especially as love interests where it had nothing to do with fat.

Megan Gill: Yep.

Tatiana Pavela: I was just like, just be that example for someone else, you know? And my students, who are adults, there’s so much fear in them, and there’s so much think-we-need-to-be-perfect before we do the thing. And I’m like no one’s perfect. You kind of have to be strong and wrong.

How I’ve learned anything in this industry is by doing it wrong and having someone tell me the right way to do it, or, “Don’t do it that way. Do it like this,” you know? And it’s like… one of my students was talking about their need for perfectionism, and I was thinking about it on my walk home after class where I was like how interesting, how unfortunate, how bizarre, how weird, how whatever that we think, as artists, we need to be perfect, but the thing that we are trying to represent is imperfect, always. Humanity is always imperfect, and that’s what makes it interesting. And those are the stories that we want to watch, and yet, we think we need to be perfect in order to represent that.

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Tatiana Pavela: Why?

Megan Gill: Seriously why. Make it make it make sense! And we think that our bodies need to be this image of perfection or acceptable in order to tell these stories. For me, a big thing now that I’m in my early thirties, approaching my mid-thirties is I have never had Botox, and I am now seeing my deeper lines. I just got headshots done, and I’m like, “No, bitch. You are not doing that.” And you know what? If people, if actors want to, more power to you. Do what works for you. For me, kind of like you were saying, I’m challenging myself to not because I want to be that face that looks the age that I am, and I wanna tell those stories with this face and with this body, and it is so damn hard. But it’s like we also need that. Sure, we need the 35-year-old women with Botox. Yes, that’s needed too. But also, my forehead wrinkles and my smile lines are also needed. They’re both needed.

Tatiana Pavela: Have you seen “The Beat In Me” with Claire Danes?

Megan Gill: Yes. Yes. Wait, with the – she’s the writer, she’s the writer.

Tatiana Pavela: She’s the writer. So I say this completely neutral. You see her, and she looks older, right? I’ve been watching her since “My So-Called Life” days. When I saw her face, when I first started watching that series, I breathed a sigh of motherfucking relief I didn’t realize I was holding. I was like, “Oh, my god.”

Megan Gill: Yeah, it’s beautiful.

Tatiana Pavela: It was like – because you could see everything on her face. You could see every emotion, everything she’s holding, everything she’s thinking. I mean, truly, truly phenomenal. And the thing that I love about her and Matthew Rhys in the show is you never know what they’re gonna do, and when they do it, it’s always the more psychopathic choice. You’re just like, “Oh, my god!”

Megan Gill: It really is such a good show.

Tatiana Pavela: It’s incredible.

Megan Gill: It took me a second to piece together…

Tatiana Pavela: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There’s so much out there right now that it’s like, “Wait, did I watch that? I don’t know, maybe?”

Megan Gill: “I know I’ve seen it! I know I’ve seen Claire Danes in a series recently, but I need to visualize it for one second, yep.” Yeah, you’re so right.

Tatiana Pavela: When I saw her, it was a sigh of relief, and it was like, “Oh my god, this is incredible.” And I mean, at the end of the day too, it’s like, look, yeah, do whatever you want to do. Do you know what I mean? I have so many friends, more people than I know are probably on Botox, you know what I mean? It’s like everybody’s doing it, but I just am so profoundly upset at the money that women are expected to spend on their looks, and it does not matter for men.

Megan Gill: Yep.

Tatiana Pavela: It pisses me off –

Megan Gill: Same.

Tatiana Pavela: – so much because it is a – this myth of beauty, right, is a tool for oppression to keep our money away from us and to keep our time away from us and to keep our energy away from us, so that we are focused on something else that is always unattainable, always changing, always out of reach, so that we are easier to control. And it always comes down to that. And I think – I’m like, listen, I would love a facelift. I’m in my forties, over here. I was like, “Just get that off.” I would love that, but at the end of the day, I’m like, “Resist the patriarchy. Resist the patriarchy.”

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Tatiana Pavela: And so, I remember when I first started going to therapy years ago, when all this started happening with my body and changing or whatever, and my therapist was like, “Who taught you to hate yourself?” And I was like, “What do you mean? What a stupid question! What do you mean? We all hate ourselves! We’re all taught that. All women are taught that.”

Megan Gill: Literally.

Tatiana Pavela: Every magazine, every book. Why are you asking me like it’s coming from a little secret, little source, you know what I mean?

Megan Gill: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like I can pinpoint one thing? It’s like, “It’s everything!”

Tatiana Pavela: It’s like literally everything.

Megan Gill: “It’s my mom, even though she really didn’t mean to,” you know? Yeah. Yeah.

Tatiana Pavela: I know. It’s wild. It’s wild. It’s like, “Who taught you to hate yourself?” “Who taught me to love myself?”

Megan Gill: God, right. Where’s that? Where’s that at?

Tatiana Pavela: Yeah. Like…

Megan Gill: Certainly not in my college theater program. Whoops, I said it.

Tatiana Pavela: Name names. Name names! I mean, it’s so hard. It’s so hard in this industry. The other thing that I come back to is that there’s no guarantee for a career. So whatever you look like, it still always – it might never happen to you. You may never get your big break. Nothing is guaranteed, and no one has the same path as anyone else. And so, you kind of can’t say, “If this happened, what –,” do you know what I mean? Because the times in my life where I felt like, “Okay, I’m gonna do this or get this role, whatever, and this is gonna be a stepping stone to someone else,” it’s like no. It wasn’t.

Megan Gill: Yeah, yeah. Yeah!

Tatiana Pavela: You’re back at square one.

Megan Gill: Right, right. Totally. We might as well live as peacefully as we can and as free as we can in these bodies that we have and that do incredible things for us and allow us to do the incredible work that we do, and just try going back to that acceptance piece of what you were touching on earlier when you said, “Either I can have that unattainable thing and try to fight to work towards that unattainable thing that society tells me I need to be for my whole life, or I can just say, fuck it. This is me. I feel good,” for the most part. We don’t always feel good.

Tatiana Pavela: Yeah.

Megan Gill: “I know how to take care of my body. I know how to nourish my body. I know how to experience joy in my body and just feel a little bit more mentally free,” and I feel like that’s almost the win.

Tatiana Pavela: Experiencing joy in your body is the win because we are taught to ignore our bodies. We’re taught to override. We’re taught to keep going. We’re taught to push, push, push, push, push, and not be in tune with what we feel at all, wou know what I mean? Especially when you’re in a rigorous kind of training program as artists or whatever, right? It’s like, “Keep going, keep going, keep going,” you know? And, okay, so this is wild. This is something that kind of stopped me in my tracks that no one will probably think is wild except for me.

Megan Gill: I can’t wait to hear.

Tatiana Pavela: When I was getting all of this stuff figured out, right, it was a couple of years after grad school, and my third doctor at this point was doing all these tests and everything, and she was like, “Oh yeah, so when did you have mono?” And I was like, “I never had mono.” And she was like, “No, you definitely had mono. It’s in your blood,” or something had come up, right? And I was like, “I never had mono.” And she was like, “Well, you had mono.”

Yeah. So I’m like, “Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. So this mono – I think about this thing that lays people down for a month – you are too tired to get out of bed or whatever – I probably had it in grad school or the years after. And I remember the days when I was so tired. I remember every day I spent more money on coffee than food. Do you know what I mean? It’s just like I was so tired, and I just overrode that. I did not miss one day, one class in three years, one rehearsal, nothing. And I’m just like that was applauded. This thing of – I was like, “Damn, that’s powerful.” And then I’m like, “No, no, no. That’s overpowering. That is not powerful. That is you being so, so not able to listen to your body that you have no idea what’s up.”

“I just am so profoundly upset at the money that women are expected to spend on their looks, and it does not matter for men. It pisses me off so much because it is a – this myth of beauty, right, is a tool for oppression to keep our money away from us and to keep our time away from us and to keep our energy away from us, so that we are focused on something else that is always unattainable, always changing, always out of reach, so that we are easier to control. And it always comes down to that. And I think – I’m like, listen, I would love a facelift. I’m in my forties, over here. I was like, “Just get that off.” I would love that, but at the end of the day, I’m like, “Resist the patriarchy. Resist the patriarchy.”

-Tatiana Pavela

Tatiana Pavela is a Chicago-based actress and theatre artist who gravitates towards experimental theatre, devised work and heightened language. As a teaching artist and private coach, she loves working with actors of all levels to work through fear, take up space and do the ridiculous. She has worked in various theaters across the US and internationally, but holds a special place in her heart for her solo show Brandi Alexander (Week 1 Critic’s Pick from The List, Edinburgh Festival Fringe; Artist Trust Award - Seattle, WA). Happiest in the water or in a rehearsal room.

Visit Tatiana’s Website

Follow Tatiana on IG

Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥

A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:

* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.

* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.

* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.

Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!

While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers.

Everyone please welcome Shalon Dozier to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Shalon is a plus fit model (for brands like Skims, Good American, Cato, Adidas and any popular brand in Nordstrom’s, Target, Walmart). She is also the owner of The Dozier Agency in Los Angeles, CA, which is a plus-size fashion consultation firm who consults brands on what plus-size women want when it comes to their clothing. She and I met modeling for some of the same clients, and I knew I wanted to bring her in for a conversation about body image.

Shalon has been a range of sizes on the spectrum, and her story of realizing she didn’t have to change her body to have success as a fit model gives me chills.

In our conversation, we discuss…

* How Shalon got her start in the fit model industry

* Her realization and understanding that her body and its biggest was needed in this industry, and she could maintain it

* The feeling when a friend asks if she fit a plus-size garment because it actually fits well

* How fit modeling is not for the faint of heart

* The lack of plus-size representation in the rooms where decisions are being made about plus-size fashion

* The lack of inclusion of plus-size bodies in the fashion industry as a whole

* Taking action to make this industry more inclusive for plus-size bodies

* How being discovered by Torrid kick-started her whole career and catapulted her into an inclusivity revolution

* Understanding the history of fashion and where the standards originated

* Rewriting the narrative to de-center the male gaze in the fashion industry

* Remembering the “why” behind the work we do as fit models

* The keys to being a great fit model

* How Shalon ended up founding her agency

Shalon is a gem of a human being and an extremely knowledgeable model. This was such an educational conversation to be part of, and I hope you take so much away from the intersection of Shalon’s expertise and lens on the state of the industry and being a plus model in today’s fashion industry climate. Shalon is truly for the girls and women she works with and represents, and I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation!

“ If you want to make money, make the damn (plus-size) clothes!”

- Shalon Dozier

Below is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at around the 9-minute & 20-second mark:

Shalon Dozier: You have to have kind of a thick skin to do this because they’re gonna talk about your body, and they’re gonna talk about you like you’re not even human.

Megan Gill: And they’re gonna talk about you right in front of you.

Shalon Dozier: In your face!

Megan Gill: While you’re in your bra and underwear.

Shalon Dozier: In your underwear and your bra! In front of a whole room of people.

Megan Gill: Yeah, yep. It’s so true.

Shalon Dozier: Okay, so you have to be thick-skinned. I think you’ve got to love this. It’s very niche, but you’ve got to love it. And I know that there’s a big influx of plus-size people wanting to get into the fit modeling industry. And I’m totally for all of that. But this is something that – it’s not like a means to end – it is a means to an end, but it’s not that. If you really want to be successful in this – and where I got my success was that I literally was like, “This is an untouched market.” I was like, “You mean to tell me you’re gonna pay me hundreds of dollars an hour to tell you what I think about some clothes?” And the rest of the models that I knew and circles that I knew was like, “Oh, fit modeling? I don’t think so. I want to be in a campaign.” And I was like, “That’s fine,” because I’m gonna haha to the bank because this is something untouched. And you have to look at it like that. Like it’s not this thing like a means to an end, you know what I mean? And that’s where a lot of girls, I think, lose their success in it or burn out because they’re just like, “Wait a minute. So I do this day in, day out? I have to keep up with my body? I have to do this da, da, da?” You have to really love to do this.

Megan Gill: It’s very true.

Shalon Dozier: Seriously.

Megan Gill: I can absolutely co-sign that myself, and it’s cool because I, over the past six years, have grown to love it. And at first, like the first time someone is talking about your body in front of you in front of a room of people, it is so jarring and it’s so like, “Wait, what’s going on?”

Shalon Dozier: Yes.

Megan Gill: But if you have the, if you have the understanding that, sure, it’s about your body, but it’s not about your body. It’s about producing the best clothes that we can produce for so many people. You’ve got to separate yourself from that a little bit. I feel like it’s really helpful. But also how lovely that your experience with fitting has brought you to understand that you don’t need to be smaller and that you can maintain where you are.

Shalon Dozier: Yes.

Megan Gill: And if you do maintain where you are, then you can help create these clothes that so many other plus-size women need. Like that piece of it all is just really special and so important.

Shalon Dozier: Yes! Yes, that to me is amazing, and it’s really good when I get friends who text me, and they’re like in the Target like dressing room, and they’re like, “Did you? Were you the fit model for this? Because girl, look at this. This looks good on me, girl!”

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Shalon Dozier: Or, “Shalon, did you do these jeans? These are amazing!”

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Shalon Dozier: And it feels like that little – those little messages let me know that I’m working and my purpose because I’m a girl’s girl. I want us all to win, and I am about us all feeling good in the skin you’re in. It’s like I did a post the other day, I’m no woman’s competition. I want us all to win.

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Shalon Dozier: I want us all to feel beautiful. I didn’t get in this to be like, “Ha, I’m better than you. Ha!” No. I’m like, “Girl, I’m standing, taking the hits, you know, them talking about my body, for this to fit good for you to have a great product that you feel good about when you walk out in the street.”

Megan Gill: Yes.

Shalon Dozier: “You’re welcome!”

Megan Gill: Absolutely, and that’s why you say you have to love it because you are taking the hits, and granted, it’s not – okay, taking the hits is not – I don’t know. It’s not like people are being always blatantly like –

Shalon Dozier: No, it’s not that.

Megan Gill: But it’s in the little nuance of things that people say, and when you’re with a client, and there’s just like a little tiny comment that doesn’t feel like a big deal. But to some people, I’m like, it could be a huge deal.

And I had an epiphany a year or two ago, like when I was in the thick of getting into the body image work myself and really feeling like I was coming to a really good place – I was in a good relationship with my body, it dawned on me that some people who maybe didn’t have a good relationship with their body or who were in the thick of eating disorders or who had really bad body dysmorphia, it might not be good for them to be in this industry and to be doing this work.

Shalon Dozier: No.

Megan Gill: Because it could really mess with your brain if you’re not careful and if you don’t have the understanding of the broader reason behind what’s going on here.

Shalon Dozier: A hundred percent.

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Shalon Dozier: You got to be – like I said, this is not something for the faint of heart. I’ve had people say, “Oh, I could be a fit model!” And I’m like, “Okay. Sure.” Because you have to have a thick skin. There are times that I have literally walked out in a situation where I was in tears, okay? There’s a flip side. There’s a great side to it. I love what I do; it’s like I have friends, I’ve met these amazing people, I’ve met you. I have all these wonderful people in my life that I have gained over my time in the industry, right? And there’s something to be said about when a room is listening, and it’s like the CEO of a company, and they’re like, “Can you say that in our sales meeting?” You know what I mean?

Megan Gill: Yeah. Yeah.

Shalon Dozier: Granted, yes. But then there are times, like you’re saying, those little nuances, that at the quietude of you being in your home, you’re like, “That shit hurt my feelings,” you get what I mean?

Megan Gill: Absolutely.

Shalon Dozier: And then the next day, you’ve got to shake it off and go in there and be a badass. You get what I mean?

Megan Gill: Absolutely, one hundred percent.

Shalon Dozier: So you have to really love yourself and accept yourself for exactly who you are, you know what I mean? And go in there with, “God put me in this purpose for a reason, and it’s to help other women and other people.”

Megan Gill: Absolutely, mic drop to all of that. And then to just add on another layer to what you are talking about, this is our livelihood, and therefore if a client is talking about your body and how it might not work for them any longer or something of the sort, not to mention like the mental gymnastics that we have to do as the models to be like, “Okay, am I gonna lose this client? This is part of what I’m paying my bills with.” That that comes along with it too is also not for the faint of heart because it’s tough. It’s tough.

Shalon Dozier: Yeah, it is. No, it’s super tough, and I think where I’m noticing, as a plus model, and this is where it’s affecting my livelihood is I’m a child of God. I’m a Christian, so I believe that God will provide for me no matter what, okay? But I have noticed a decline in work. And I seriously believe and I’ve been told by certain companies, “Oh yeah, we’re not doing plus anymore.” And I’m like, “Okay, but they are still plus-size women – there are still fat girls –,” and I say fat lovingly because I’m fat, so I can say that. You know what I mean? But, “Okay, there are still plus-size women out there that still want to buy clothes!”

Megan Gill: Right! “From you. Probably because they know that you’re producing, you’ve been producing them. What do you mean you’re just gonna stop?” To get on what you’re saying, I’ve noticed, and a lot of plus-size models in the industry, we’ve all noticed that there’s a lack of plus-size bodies, plus-size presence in fashion week now, on runways. There’s a lack of plus-size people being shown in e-comm, on certain companies that were inclusive at one time and are no longer, you know what I’m saying?

Megan Gill: Yep.

Shalon Dozier: We are watching this in real frickin’ time. And my thing is – and I will die on this hill – when I came into this business. it was $3 billion for plus. In 11 years, it has gone to $34 billion. We have spending power. We are here buying the clothes. We have the money to spend. We like to dress. We like to look good. So my question is, when it’s this paradigm shift that you’re talking about with clients and no longer needing your body type, it’s like, “Are you crazy? Because do you not want to make money?”

Megan Gill: Literally!

Shalon Dozier: “Do you not want to make the money?” But what I’ve found is it’s happened to me, and then they have to ask me to come back.

Megan Gill: Uh-huh. I know we’ve spoken about that before. Yep. “I’m sorry, what?”

Shalon Dozier: Oh yeah. And, “We’re not gonna do plus.” And it’s, “Oh, that was a mistake. Mm-hmm. We want that money. Hi, can you come back? We’re gonna be doing inclusive again.” You know what I mean?

And I do believe that there is about to be this wave – we’re on the tail end of lack of inclusivity because this is something that happened long before the Trump administration did away with DEI. That’s the thing people don’t know is that the lack of inclusion, in terms of plus-sized bodies, happened long before this, okay? This whole situation with DEI being removed was just kinda like the icing on the cake. Well, because of our economy being so bad, companies are actually like – actually, after I did that post on my Instagram that we talked about, it was like literally a literal shifting again. And it’s shifting again, where people started being like, “Hey, we have a line. Would you like to come in? Can we meet with you?” And I was like, “Wait a minute, my phone is ringing now!”

Megan Gill: It’s almost like who do you stand for? If you are gonna get rid of plus, or if you’re just not gonna have a plus line, do you stand with the,m or are you trying to do the right thing and do better for the people of the world, of this country?

Shalon Dozier: Personally, yeah, I would like to believe that’s what it is. But I’m gonna say that this is about money. It’s about business. It’s about if it doesn’t make dollars, it doesn’t make sense. But the problem is that a lot of these companies are making these decisions without plus-sized people in the room. You cannot make a decision for what I want, what my friends want, family members want, that are plus-size, and you’ve been a size two all your life. You don’t know what I want. And it’s no amount of you having an MBA or you having enough business skills in sales or merchandising is going to allot you to know what my body wants.

Megan Gill: Yep. What the lived experience is.

Shalon Dozier: You are basing it on a personal opinion, and then when you indoctrinate that personal opinion into your company, and the sales drop, then you have to go, “Oh, my bad. Yeah, come back, actually,” you know what I mean? And what I find is that there have been times with companies, even famous, infamous, plus-sized companies – will remain nameless. I did a sales meeting one time, and I was the only plus-sized person in the room, and this is like a tried-and-true plus-sized brand. And I was like – I sat back like, “Ooh, if everybody knew that these people making the decisions for this, nobody’s plus-size.”

Megan Gill: It just doesn’t make sense.

Shalon Dozier: Make it make sense.

Megan Gill: So it’s like where’s the representation in front of the camera, and where’s the representation behind the camera or behind the scenes, you know?

Shalon Dozier: Yes, yes.

Megan Gill: Because we need both.

Shalon Dozier: Yes, you do. And I don’t see plus-size – sometimes I’m the only plus-sized person in the room to this day. Okay, so that tells me a lot, and what I’ve learned in my career and how I started consulting is that I had a tech designer tell me once, she was like, “You’re such a wealth of knowledge because you don’t only just fit for us. You fit, you give out pattern correction callouts.” She was like, “And you consult us. You literally ask a question like, ‘Oh, this is cute. So how are you gonna market this to us? Oh, what are you gonna put with that?’” You know what I mean? And I’ve had to, because I’m like, I like to shop! So, “How are you gonna present this to somebody? How are you gonna do that?”

“It’s really good when I get friends who text me, and they’re like in the Target dressing room, and they’re like, “Did you? Were you the fit model for this? Because girl, look at this. This looks good on me, girl!” Or, “Shalon, did you do these jeans? These are amazing!” And it feels like that little – those little messages let me know that I’m working and my purpose because I’m a girl’s girl. I want us all to win, and I am about us all feeling good in the skin you’re in. It’s like I did a post the other day, I’m no woman’s competition. I want us all to win. I want us all to feel beautiful. I didn’t get in this to be like, “Ha, I’m better than you. Ha!” No. I’m like, “Girl, I’m standing, taking the hits, you know, them talking about my body, for this to fit good for you to have a great product that you feel good about when you walk out in the street.”

- Shalon Dozier

Shalon Dozier is a Los Angeles based, full-time size 16/18 fit model and fashion industry leader with a career rooted in advocacy, expertise, and representation. She has worked extensively with top denim and apparel brands including Good American, Reformation, NYDJ, AVA&VIV, Max Studio, Celebrity Pink and 7 For All Mankind, and is proudly the first Target Certified Plus Size Fit Model for the California.

In addition to her work as a fit model, Shalon is the owner of the only black owned modeling agency on the west coast, creating pathways for greater inclusion and equity within the fashion industry. Her fit clientele spans luxury, contemporary, and mass-market brands such as Fendi, ZARA, IVY PARK, SKIMS, Adidas, Nordstrom, Volcom, Wild Fable, Dia & Co., Stitch Fix, Beyond Yoga, Macy’s, Torrid, and more.

Discovered at an early age, Shalon has built a successful career in the plus-size fashion space, including gracing the cover of Plus Model Magazine, modeling e-commerce for SKIMS, and being featured on the website of historic department store Selfridges in London. She has also worked with Banana Republic, Gap, and Orvis, walked in major plus fashion shows, and trained with acclaimed supermodel Coco Rocha and Keenyah Hill.

Shalon’s mission is to empower women, challenge outdated beauty standards, and actively reshape the fashion industry to be more inclusive, representative, and equitable.

Follow Shalon on Instagram

Get in touch with The Dozier Agency!

Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥

A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:

* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.

* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.

* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.

Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!

While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers.

Everyone please welcome Cornelia Hanes to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Cornelia and I met in acting class - she’s a phenomenal actress and filmmaker, as well as a lovely human being. The intersection of her work in both the fitness and entertainment industries, not to mention her being a new mama, makes for a vital conversation about body image. There is so much to take away from what we chat about and what Cornelia shares.

In our conversation, we discuss…

* Doing the inner work to love your body for all it can do

* Feeling strong and calling on your body to do incredible things

* Creating messy, real, raw female characters in raw, real, messy films

* The physical body changes along with the habitual diet/movement changes being a new mom brings

* The beauty in feeling strong as hell

* Our deepest insecurities will always be with us

* Challenging our modern concept of beauty standards

* Raising her daughter to non-negotiably care for her body through leading by example

Our conversation is full of golden nuggets Cornelia shares about her journey with her body, and I’m so excited for you to listen in!

“The other day, I was in a parking garage, and the elevators – one didn’t work and one was working, but there was a long line. This was a holiday, so that’s why I didn’t – there was just a lot of people there. And I was like, all right. After seven minutes standing in this queue for getting in the elevator, I was like, I’m just gonna take the stairs. So I took the stroller with my – she’s probably 25 pounds at this point – and the diaper bag, and I just lifted it and walked the stairs. I loved being able to do that. I was like I got this. I’m just gonna carry all of this. And then as I got to where I was going, I met a woman who had two toddlers, and she saw me and she just nodded her head and she’s like, “Hell yeah, strong mom.” And I was like, Ugh. I love the mom community.”

- Cornelia Hanes

Below is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at around the 19-minute mark:

Megan Gill: Okay, so shifting over to you and where you are at now in your life. You are an actor, and you have been working in the health and wellness space for quite a while now, and you are a new mom. So I’m curious how your body image journey has led you now to this place, and kind of if there’s a trajectory of how your relationship to your own body has shifted through different phases of life, and where you find yourself now as a new mom, which I understand does bring up change. You literally housed a baby inside of you for nine months. Of course your body’s changing.

Cornelia Hanes: Yeah.

Megan Gill: I’m just curious your personal experience and if you would be willing to share a little bit about where you’ve been and where you find yourself now.

Cornelia Hanes: Yes, so I am in a wonderful place with my body. I have never been so appreciative and grateful for it. I’m so in love with my daughter and the fact that I had a healthy pregnancy, a healthy delivery, she’s thriving. I am just in awe of women’s bodies and being able to create life. So that I feel very grateful to have experienced, and the fact that we are doing well and I had a nice recovery, not without its bumps for sure. And I am nursing still, so a big thing for me is, one, I have to work out. I’m a former athlete, so if I don’t move my body, I go cuckoo. I just do that to move energy and just make sure my head is clear. But that doesn’t necessarily always mean lifting weights. Sometimes that’s a walk outside. It’s just moving the body. So I make sure I get movement every day. I really have to be adamant about protein and calories and drinking at least three liters of water so that my supply doesn’t dip. So that’s where I’m at right now. I gotta make sure that I am still able to feed her and feed myself and do all of that.

I’ve had a different experience with body image. So I used to be an elite swimmer, right? I grew up swimming and I’ve always been an athlete, and when I was growing up, I was skinny and I had broad shoulders and I hated that. I just wanted curves. I wanted boobs. I wanted an ass so bad. That’s what I wanted. And so, being a teenager, and then it got better in college, but I was always – I had a swimmer’s body. Sure, I was strong and I was athletic. But it’s so funny, right? You always want what you don’t have, especially as you’re growing up and trying to figure out who you are.

Megan Gill: The grass is always greener. So I had a lot of self-doubt around just not looking feminine enough. The fact that I had a big back because I was strong as hell, now I’m like, oh, I wish I would’ve appreciated all the benefits instead. But you’re a teenager. You don’t really think about it that way. And then in college, much of my identity was a swimmer. You know, I was in the pool all the time and competing in NCAA and all of that. So that kind of faded a little bit, and I had a great team of other girls and we were just such a strong unit, that noise dampened a little bit.

Megan Gill: I love that.

Cornelia Hanes: But still, also, American culture – I don’t know if when the Kardashians came up to light, but again I just wanted to be curvy and I just wanted to feel more like a woman than I did. And, like we talked about with aging, I think I’ve done a lot of work on myself where I’ve just realized that’s just silly. This is the body you have, love it for all it can do. So I’ve done a lot of work on myself in that capacity. And now, I just love feeling strong. I just love being able to call on my body for all of the things.

The other day I was in a parking garage, and the elevators – one didn’t work and one was working, but there was a long line. This was a holiday, so that’s why I didn’t – there was just a lot of people there. And I was like, all right. After seven minutes standing in this queue for getting in the elevator, I was like, I’m just gonna take the stairs. So I took the stroller with my – she’s probably 25 pounds at this point – and the diaper bag, and I just lifted it and walked the stairs.

Megan Gill: Hell yeah.

Cornelia Hanes: I loved being able to do that. I was like I got this. I’m just gonna carry all of this. And then as I got to where I was going, I met a woman who had two toddlers, and she saw me and she just nodded her head and she’s like, “Hell yeah, strong mom.” And I was like, Ugh. I love the mom community of just…

Megan Gill: Ah, that makes me emotional.

Cornelia Hanes: But I was like, I love that she saw that and recognized that, and she’s probably been there herself.

And also, with my my short film, Anaconda, I think I’ve always just been passionate about embracing being perfectly imperfect. And I love seeing women on screen that are messy and just real and raw, and I’ve always tried to mimic that with my filmmaking and my comedy. And so, I think that’s the underlying theme of my adult life, that I just want, any way I can, to make other women feel good in the skin they’re in but also feel empowered and strong from the inside out is really a passion of mine. And if I can help women feel even a little bit better in that sense, that’s just something I love being able to do and feel so passionate about.

But I will say even, Anaconda is on Omeleto now, and when we released it to the world, and – you know this – it’s a little daunting releasing a film into the world. And don’t know what I was thinking with the outfits I was wearing in that short, I don’t know. But for some reason, I’m choosing this crop top, and it’s making my shoulders look even wider. And I could tell that came up for me again. It hasn’t really been a thought for a long time. I’ve embraced my athletic body. But there were some comments like, oh, she looks like a dude, or that’s a man or whatever. And my stomach was just like – first it was like, what? And then I just started laughing. I was like that’s very inaccurate, but still, comments like that still –

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Cornelia Hanes: – sent me back to my teenage self when I was not feeling good in my body and being so self-conscious about that. Now I can look at that and laugh, but in that moment I was like, oh, wow, that was triggering for me.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Oh my god, it makes so much sense. It’s like these traumas, if you will, body traumas, body image traumas never leave us. And the things about ourselves that we are most insecure about are always going to be there, right, no matter how much work we do. But it’s like, of course, I think we have to – and not that you’re not giving yourself grace, but overarchingly, I think that us women need to give ourselves grace for feeling those things and for having insecurities because of course you felt the way you did in a culture that is obsessed with women that are skinny but not too skinny, but also have a curvy butt and also have big boobs. It’s like nobody – we can’t ever win.

Cornelia Hanes: Yeah.

Megan Gill: My insecurities of having my belly pooch, that is not culturally seen as attractive in a similar sense as being super thin and tall with broad shoulders isn’t necessarily seen as the “ideal.” So it’s like, of course, we are feeling these things, which I think is just important to point out that there is a reason for us to feel like we are not – these parts of ourselves that we’re insecure about are never going to be good enough or accepted or all of that, all of that stuff, all of that noise.

Especially as an actor too, because, god, don’t worry, the same experience happens for me as well, or a similar experience of seeing myself on camera and being like – judging my body.

Cornelia Hanes: Yeah.

Megan Gill: And granted, my first film was about body image, so that was such a freeing experience to be like – I remember when I was in pre-production for that project, I was like, “It’s okay. I can eat whatever I want. My body can be however it’s gonna be,” and I’ve carried that forward with me.

I do not do the thing of, “Oh, before I’m shooting a film –,” I shot a short film last weekend, and I had a donut on the last day of filming, and I’m not doing this psycho no sugar, no this, no that, which I understand for some people that works and that’s okay, but for me, that’s not a way to live. I’m like, yes, I want to be eating my vegetables, but I’m also allowed to have a fucking donut on the same day that I’m shooting a film.

Cornelia Hanes: Of course you are! You get a donut! You get a donut! Everybody gets a donut!

Megan Gill: Everybody gets a donut! But yeah, god, it’s like tenfold as an actor. And like even shooting in your own project where you’re like, oh, I had control over what I was wearing. And then I can only imagine reading those types of comments from people. Ugh, it’s like why do they think the way they think? Because they also exist in the same culture that we exist in, which is the reason that we are judging these parts of our bodies in the first place.

Cornelia Hanes: Yeah.

Megan Gill: Oh, god.

Cornelia Hanes: And maybe that little voice will always be there, but like you said, how can you give it grace and how can you just shine light on it and be like that’s not necessarily true anymore. You don’t have to buy into that, and you can change the narrative. I’m curious, after Broadway Body, how was the response? Did you read comments? How did you feel with people’s feedback on the film?

Megan Gill: I was very self-conscious throughout a lot of the process because my body, though curvier, though on like the curvier side of an average body, if you wanna even say that, I’m still very straight sized.

Cornelia Hanes: What is an average body? I don’t know.

Megan Gill: I don’t fucking know.

Cornelia Hanes: What is that? Sorry to interrupt you, but…

Megan Gill: No, you’re fine! You’re fine. When I say it, I’m thinking culturally speaking, what the “ideal” is.

Cornelia Hanes: The magazines, the…

Megan Gill: What’s pushed in media as being a “good” body to have, which what the fuck is that even? I don’t agree with that.

Cornelia Hanes: Magazines? What am I, from the nineties? Media is a better way to it. What we see in the media.

Megan Gill: No, I love it. I get it. I knew what you meant. I knew what you meant! But I remember just feeling like I – I was feeling insecure because I felt like my body was too small to be the one telling this story.

Cornelia Hanes: Oh.

Megan Gill: And I think that’s something that has still stayed with me. Though I’ve worked through it because, listen, I have a body image story just as you have a body image story, just as anybody in any shape and size and color of body has a body image story. So why can I not be the one to tell this story?

I’ve heard nothing but great feedback. Granted, the film is not on a big platform like Omeleto, so it’s not – I don’t even think it’s on YouTube. I think it’s on Vimeo, so it’s not really in a public space at the moment to have a bunch of eyes and a bunch of people, random people, commenting on it. But I am very grateful that I didn’t hear certain things and granted like the comments that you were hearing about your body in your film, if people were making those comments to me about my body in a film about body image, that would be wild. But also – yeah, I don’t know.

Cornelia Hanes: Yeah, and I think it’s also like why am I paying attention to these few comments, maybe it was like three, instead of the response of, “Oh, this is so funny!” “Oh, I relate to this.” “Oh, this is such a fresh take.” “Oh, I love the characters. It’s so interesting.” Also, why do our minds go to the negative instead of embracing all the positive and being like, “That’s not true,” or whatever, “Fuck you.” So it’s just an interesting – I try to always zoom out a little bit and be like, “Okay, what’s happening here?” Or, “Why do I pay attention to this and not that?” Or, “Why do I give this more brain power than the message, which is embracing and just being imperfect and being messy and just being real. And that’s much more relatable, I think.

Megan Gill: Do you wanna share a little bit about Anaconda?

Cornelia Hanes: Sure!

Megan Gill: For context and to just talk about your work?

Cornelia Hanes: Yes, yes! That’s probably helpful.

Megan Gill: Oh, you’re fine! I should have asked you earlier!

Cornelia Hanes: So Anaconda is a comedic short about a group of friends that go on a road trip to Burning Man. But they don’t quite make it there, so they have to stop in Reno, and there’s only one hotel room left, so they all have to share. And in the middle of the night, there are some things that happen and they take place in a bathroom. And I’m not gonna say anything more than that.

Megan Gill: We’ll link to it. We’ll link to it!

Cornelia Hanes: Yeah, but I feel like, with Anaconda, I felt encouraged to portray a more accurate reflection of life maybe than people really share even in person, or definitely not on screen. And so, we try to showcase, female characters aren’t afraid to be messy and, in turn, challenge the modern concept of our beauty standards in a silly, fun way.

So like I said, it’s about embracing your imperfections. It’s realizing that being imperfect can be pretty attractive. And I just love when I see films that have characters that are real and raw and vulnerable and messy and not pretty and not put together. So I really try to mimic that with my own filmmaking and my comedy, and I love playing characters like that. So it was a lot of fun. Again, it’s very silly. Whenever someone’s, “Oh, I wanna watch it!” I’m like drink a glass of wine, smoke a joint, or whatever is your vibe. And it’s not that serious. It’s meant to be a good time but also have an underlying message, which is cool too.

Megan Gill: And imperfect is beautiful and imperfect is the antithesis of our cultural beauty standard and diet culture and all of these things that we are told that we should do and should be, because I’m right there with you. I think that it’s so important to be creating media that has something to say about that and is a comment or just an example of the type of stories and the type of people that I would like to see more of and that I think are just so needed. Which I also think is the way that you’re showing up with your work in the wellness industry as well, I think has a similar vibe, and I just think it’s such incredible work and so needed and so important today and such an important example that we are allowed to be imperfect and we are allowed to listen to our bodies and we are allowed to be strong.

Cornelia Hanes: Yes.

Megan Gill: And another thing that you said – sorry, I’m all over the place. There are so many things! The other thing you said about how you want to raise your daughter is something else I’d like to circle back to, because when you said that I was like, “Oh, absolutely. Of course.” Do you have anything else – I don’t really have a question around it, but I’m like, yeah, that’s such an important thing, everything that you’ve been through and everything that you’ve learned and are still learning, I’m sure, about how to teach others and lead by example to work to love your body and really take care of your body instead of making it about your body being an ornamental thing. I’m wondering if there’s anything else you’d like to share in terms of how you hope to raise your daughter or even – I know she’s eight months old, but like she’s eight months old. Babies are sponges, right? I’m just curious about that.

Cornelia Hanes: I love that question. And it’s fun because when I work with my clients – and I’m thinking about this one woman. She has two kids, and sometimes her oldest will interrupt the workout, but she always lets her, which I think is very cute. She’s like, “Wll right, join me! Now we’re doing this.” I know that some days she says, “Time is sacred for me. Go to your dad or go to your nanny,” or whatever. But the times she does bring her in, I’m like that is so awesome because, one, she sees you take time for yourself, she sees you lift weights, she sees you prioritize working out in your health and just being strong, and what a great role model you are for your daughter. And I’ve always said that to her. And now that I’m in that same boat, she is very much very aware at eight months. It’s very cute. She’s starting to – you can just tell that more is happening back there.

Megan Gill: The wheels are turning!

Cornelia Hanes: The wheels are turning! So the times where she’s woken up early for her nap and I’m in my workout, I just bring her. And it is so cute to see her watch me with joy, and she’s probably like, “What the hell are you doing? Why are you down on the ground? Why are you lifting that thing over your head?” But I think that’s definitely something I wanna keep doing. I just want to see her – I want for her to see me doing stuff like that, lifting heavy stuff and working out and taking care of my body and prioritizing that and not make that something that’s – honestly, it’s non-negotiable. It’s gonna be a non-negotiable, and it’s not about looking a certain way. It’s about feeling a certain way. And I hope that she will be into sports and be an athlete as well, but if she’s not, that’s also totally cool. But yeah, I’m definitely starting to think about even now, just making sure that I am living the way that I would do her justice, so that I make sure that my behaviors and my patterns are something that I want her to adapt and do as well down the line. And yeah, I think it’s they don’t do what you say they do what you do, right?

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Cornelia Hanes: It’s that, even now when she’s so young, I think it’s important to bring her into my world in that sense and be outdoors and go on hikes and just…

Megan Gill: Yeah, make walking your movement for the day.

Cornelia Hanes: Yeah!

Megan Gill: So important, yeah.

Cornelia Hanes: But I think that’ll probably come up more and more for me as she gets older. It’s still so new, all of it. But I think that’s just non-negotiable. It’s gonna be that we take care of our bodies, and how lucky we are to have a strong body that can take us places and that you can do things with. I guess just having a being grateful for the body you’re in and the things that it can do, more so than the way it looks.

Megan Gill: Absolutely 100%. And I just love the point about allowing the child to see mom working out and enjoying it and being joyful and having a good time with it, instead of maybe the way that we were raised where working out was a punishment to either how much you ate. It wasn’t this thing that was culturally seen as a non-negotiable.

“   For the everyday average Joe, it’s finding that balance with working out and a balanced diet. It’s so important to not feel shame or guilt, if you can. I talked to a girlfriend of mine the other day about how fortunate we feel that we have such a healthy relationship with food and how that’s quite rare because, as you talked about, just the way we grow up and how the inputs we get as we grow up, we don’t really understand the effect that has until later in life when you start to do your own inner work or it shows up and you just can’t ignore it anymore. And now that I have a daughter, I just really want to make sure that I install the same in her, that food is fuel, and it’s fun, and it’s a way to explore and try different cultures.”

- Cornelia Hanes

Cornelia Hanes is a Swedish-born actor, award-winning filmmaker, and former elite swimmer based in Los Angeles. Her creative work often centers on sharp, relatable storytelling—most notably her comedic short film ANACONDA, which earned a feature in Forbes and distribution on Omeleto, YouTube’s premier platform for cinema. The film’s success is underscored by its impressive festival run, securing wins and nominations at 19 out of 30 festivals.

Off-screen, Cornelia is dedicated to empowering women through movement and wellness. As a National Academy of Sports Medicine certified Personal Trainer, Precision Nutrition certified nutritionist and a Girls Gone Strong certified pre- and postnatal coach, she helps career moms navigate their fitness journeys. Leveraging her background as an elite athlete, she is passionate about helping women feel their strongest, most confident selves during and after pregnancy.

Link to ANACONDA: Anaconda on Omeleto

Link to work with me in the fitness world:

https://corneliafitness.carrd.co/

IG @corneliahanes

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A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:

* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.

* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.

* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.

Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!

While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers.

Everyone please welcome my dear friend Roxana Venzor Garcia to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! As Roxana and I have become closer friends this year, she has been so receptive to my deep affinity and love for talking about body image online. Slowly but surely, she would respond to my posts and share bits and pieces of her story with me. She then came to me with her story being diagnosed with alopecia areata and how much it changed the way she viewed her body, saying how much the work I’ve been doing has inspired her (which, like, INSTANT TEARS for me), and I knew I had to ask her to come have a conversation with me. I’m just amazed at how vulnerable and willing to share her story Roxana was, even though she was nervous and didn’t know she’d ever find herself in a place to share this story without breaking down, and I’m so beyond grateful she trusted this space with me to explore it verbally. This is a powerful conversation on so many levels, and I cannot wait for you to listen!

In our conversation, we discuss…

* Roxana’s upbringing in a culture that normalizes commenting on bodies

* Roxana’s bout with diet pills and an ED

* The cultural norm of never being satisfied with our bodies

* Her journey with alopecia areata

* The direct correlation between treating our bodies well and our overall health and wellness

* The emotional rollercoaster from diagnosis to treatment to healing and everything in between

* The trauma of losing your hair, especially as a woman

* The importance of caring for our mental health in order to be physically healthy too

* The power of sharing your struggles online to reach those who need to hear what you’re going through to not feel alone in their struggle

* How meaningful basic support from friends and family actually is

* Working through no longer letting our bodies define who we are

* Finding the gratitude, appreciation, and tenderness for the body that you have right now

“ When I went to my doctor, she told me, ‘No, I have a lot of patients like you, but it’s a very hard thing that women go through that nobody wants to share it.’” - Roxana Venzor Garcia

If just one person hears this story, we hope they feel seen and know they are not alone on their journey.

Book Roxana refers to in our conversation: You Can Heal Your Life

“ So I remember I had one of my best friends till now, she was like, “Hey, my aunt is just taking these pills that make you lose a lot of weight.” And you cannot buy them if you are not 18 years old. We were like 15 at the time and she was like, “But she’s gonna buy them for me, and I’m gonna share them with you, but just don’t say anything.” And I was like, “Perfect.” So I remember just starting taking those pills, and they will make me feel really weird, but I was losing the weight, so I was like, “Perfect.” I think that was probably for a year during high school where I was literally just having one meal a day. My mom was working, at the time, three jobs at the time, so I was the one making food and helping out with my brother, whatever. So I was able to get away with not eating. Also, I lost a lot of weight, and my whole family, my mom, everybody, was like, “Oh my god! You look so pretty! Good job!””

- Roxana Venzor Garcia

Megan Gill: Hi, Roxana!

Roxana Venzor Garcia: Hi!

Megan Gill: I’m so excited that you’re here having this conversation with me today, and that you are feeling nervous about it, but doing it anyways!

Roxana Venzor Garcia: Thank you for inviting me, and yes, I am nervous, but I’m gonna work through that with our conversation.

Megan Gill: I love it. I love it. So can you just start by introducing yourself and sharing a little bit about the type of work that you do in the world?

Roxana Venzor Garcia: My name is Roxana. I think I need to say, first and foremost, I’m from Mexico, so there is where the accent is coming from for anybody that is listening. I moved here in 2017, and I work as an RN, and I work in the oncology department with cancer patients. So that’s what I do three times a week for 12 hours. That’s my job.

Megan Gill: That’s amazing and so needed in our world, as I’m sure you know. Yeah, so it’s also interesting that you – because I believe everybody has a body image story, no matter who you are, no matter what your body looks like, no matter what you’ve dealt with or haven’t dealt with, your experiences that you may have had. Whatever your life experience and lived experience is, I believe everyone has a body image story. And you so graciously came to me and shared yours. I know that you had shared it on your Instagram, but you sent it over to me to read through, not necessarily the whole of your story, of course.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: No.

Megan Gill: This shit runs very deep. But before we dive into the specific aspect that you had shared with me, do you wanna talk a little bit about your relationship with your body in general in your life? So obviously now being in your thirties, I feel a lot of women grow into – their relationship with their body grows and flourishes and blooms in a different way than it did in our younger years. So I’m just curious if anything’s coming up for you within that, that you wanna share or talk about?

Roxana Venzor Garcia: So I honestly feel everything, my relationship with my body and the way that I always thought and spoke to my body led me to have alopecia areata, which was the problem that I shared with you. My relationship with my body, I feel like as every other woman, has always been – it’s a toxic boyfriend, toxic ex.

Growing up Hispanic, growing up Mexican, talking about your body in front of other people, it’s okay in your family. They will always – it’s very toxic, and they will always be talking about your body even if you are not okay with it. I remember growing up, I was in a normal weight. I remember having a normal – I never had any issues or thoughts about my body until – my childhood was not a very easy childhood. I moved a lot. My mom was a single mom, so it was a lot of things, and I remember probably when I started my treatment for alopecia, that’s when I was oh my god, I think I have anxiety since I was five years old, but I didn’t know.

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: So I remember food was a comfort for me. So I remember hiding food in my room when I was little and just eating it at night. And then I will wake up and I will have candy in my mouth. These are things that I haven’t shared with a lot of people, but I remember and that will bring me comfort. And I think that’s when I started gaining weight. So obviously my brother will always make fun of me because my best friend was super skinny and they will say, “Oh look, the number 10 walking.” And I was like, “I’m the zero.”

Megan Gill: Wow.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: And it’s crazy because I know that my mom was doing the best she could with what she had. She grew up the same or even worse with those comments, you know?

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: So she wouldn’t stop it. She wouldn’t say anything. So my brother would be literally my biggest bully sometimes. I have a good relationship with him, but I remember.

Megan Gill: Is he older or younger? I’m just curious.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: He’s older.

Megan Gill: Okay. Yeah.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: Yeah, and then obviously going to visit my family, everybody will have a comment about me and I was there. And then they will say – my mom’s name is Roxana as well. So they will say, “Roxana, she’s getting chubby,” and I was there. Or, “Oh, my god, she’s eating a lot. Maybe you shouldn’t eat another plate,” or things like that. I remember I was probably eight, nine years old, and my mom had my younger brother when I was seven, and I remember my mom was trying to lose weight from her pregnancy, for the pregnancy weight, and there was this book, and I will never forget, it was like “How to lose 25 pounds in 10 days or 15 days,” something like that.

Megan Gill: Oh my god, yeah, wild.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: And I will never forget. And my mom was, “Hey, Roxana, we’re doing this.” And I was like… I honestly was probably seven, eight years old. She’s like, “We’re doing this.” And I remember it’s, “Oh, okay. I’m gonna lose weight. I’m gonna lose weight.” And I remember she will make breakfast for my brother or whatever, and then it was something really nice and good. And then she – I will never forget; I feel this is a core memory – she brought out two pieces of ham with just a string of cheese, and she’s like, “This is yours.” And I was like, “Oh.” And she’s like, “Because we’re losing weight, remember?”

Megan Gill: Oh, my goodness.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: And I’m not saying this like, “My mom –.” This is the way that honestly Hispanic families – and I know other cultures, other races is the same, but Hispanic is toxic about women’s bodies and the way that they approach it. I can say that for my family.

And yeah, so it was like growing up I always hated my body. The word was I hated my body. I hated it. I always remember feeling – and sometimes I even struggled with that. I always – I grew up feeling less than other people my age, other girls. So obviously I grew up hating my body.

And when I was in high school, I remember I really liked this guy, and I was oh my god, he’s never gonna me because I’m fat. So I lost a lot of weight because I just wanted to do it for myself. So I lost the weight and he still didn’t me. And I was like, oh, so it’s not that, it is just…

Megan Gill: Oh, wow. It’s so wild because – I just wanna jump in because that is also a core social part of my childhood. My middle school, high school years was me being a chubbier kid and just learning that the cute boys that I had a crush on weren’t gonna like me – just learning. Not that it was true that they weren’t gonna like me because of my body, but it was socialized into my brain that you are a young girl in a bigger body, and therefore cute boys will not like you. That was what I learned.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: Yeah, boys are not gonna look at you because you are fat, because there are girls that look way better than you. So I feel that’s a universal thing for girls. And that’s the first thing like, if there’s ever a time when a girl loses weight it’s to attract one of the guys that she likes. And that was for me, I was like I don’t know what I did. I honestly, I don’t think I was having any eating disorders at the time. Then after that I was like, okay, he still doesn’t like me, and I was like maybe it’s because I’m still not super skinny or whatever. And obviously other things that growing up like that, obviously, it’s gonna affect you.

So I remember I had one of my best friends till now, she was like, “Hey, my aunt is just taking these pills that make you lose a lot of weight.” And you cannot buy them if you are not 18 years old. We were like 15 at the time and she was like, “But she’s gonna buy them for me, and I’m gonna share them with you, but just don’t say anything.” And I was like, “Perfect.” So I remember just starting taking those pills, and they will make me feel really weird, but I was losing the weight, so I was like, “Perfect.” And then I think I started an eating disorder, but it never got to the point that it got out of control. I was able to control it, but I know my best friends will be like, “If you don’t eat, I’m gonna tell your mom.” Or even the gym. I used to go to the gym every single day. If I didn’t go one day, I will cry. I was like, “I missed the gym. I missed the gym.”

So my trainer at one point was like, “You are doing things wrong, and I’m gonna talk to your mom.” And I was obviously so scared. I was like, “No!” I think that was probably for a year during high school where I was literally just having one meal a day. My mom was working, at the time, three jobs at the time, so I was the one making food and helping out with my brother, whatever. So I was able to get away with not eating. Also, I lost a lot of weight, and my whole family, my mom, everybody, was like, “Oh my god! You look so pretty! Good job!”

Megan Gill: Oh my God. Yeah.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: I remember my uncle being like, “Good job! You look amazing. Keep doing what you’re doing, blah, blah, blah.” And I was like…

Megan Gill: Yeah, that type of reinforcement is so damaging. Oh my god.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: It is. It is because I remember I look at those pictures now, and I look amazing, but I never felt that way. I never felt good about myself. I was just – my self-esteem and is something that I’m still working with, has always been very low just for I feel everything, but I remember I was damn. Now I look, I’m like damn, if I look that now, I’ll be like…

Megan Gill: I know. It’s always interesting to look back on ourselves in hindsight and be like wow. Or even just the thought that you had of how sad that she couldn’t even be satisfied. She couldn’t even – what was enough? Would it ever be enough? Oh, that’s heartbreaking.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: Yeah. That’s honestly my – that was my question before I got the alopecia was when is it gonna be enough? Then when I started with this whole thing with the alopecia, I remember feeling so guilty and I was like, “I did this. I did this to myself because –.” And I get emotional because I’m like, “It’s been 30 years, and I have never been happy with my body, and now my body’s getting sick from it.” So I’m like, “I cannot keep doing this. I cannot. I need to stop,” but I didn’t know where to start.

So then fast forward to 2023, again, I’m always trying to lose weight. I’m always trying to look better. I’m always trying blah, blah, blah, and I was just like hanging out with my dog in my apartment, and I remember I was just – I love touching my hair and my scalp and just massaging it. And I remember feeling a spot, a bald spot, and I was like, what is this? And it was 11:00 PM. At the time, I was fighting with my mom for a couple weeks, and I remember the first thought I had. I was like, “I need to call my mom.” So I called my mom, and I was like, “Hey, I have a bald spot.” And she’s like, “What do you mean?” And I was like, “I have a bald spot.” And she’s, “Oh, that’s normal. Don’t worry. My hair falls a lot too, blah, blah.” And I was like, I don’t think she understood, and I was crying. I was like, “I don’t know what this is.”

So I remember it was 11, and I was just Googling CVS, 24 hours, Walmart…

Megan Gill: When I read this part about you Googling what CVS was open, I was like this is the most effing relatable thing, and I would’ve done the exact same thing. Okay, sorry. Continue. I was just like, yep, yep. I don’t blame you.

.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: I was like I need something now. Even though that wasn’t gonna change anything, it was I need something now. because I was spiraling. So I remember I was in my pajamas at CVS asking the lady, “What do you think is best for this?” And they give me a bunch of stuff. I have spent so much money on this, it’s crazy. I wish I could just go back and see how much I’ve spent on this. But I bought a bunch of stuff at CVS and then I was you know what? I’m gonna go to Walmart. I need natural things, natural shampoos, oils, everything. Then I came back home, and I just couldn’t sleep. And I started googling things, and that’s the first time I saw the name, the word alopecia areata. And I was like oh, my god, because I literally went through a rabbit hole of it, and I was like this is what I have. I’m sure I have this. And the more I read, I was like this is just gonna get worse. It’s usually not just one spot.

I remember the next day I was already calling a dermatologist. I was like I need help. Obviously that’s when the emotional and the – I don’t even know how to say it. It was just probably the darkest time of my life. Emotionally, I was just a mess. I was just trying to isolate myself. I just literally isolated myself, actually. I was just so anxious all the time. My hair, I will put my hand like this, from top to bottom, and I will just like – clumps of hair. And then I will shower, and it will be even more and more. I literally used to shake and cry before every time I had to hop in the shower because it was traumatizing, because I was like I’m gonna lose a lot of hair in the shower, and after that I’m gonna have to brush my hair, and it’s gonna be even more.

I remember I used to grab all the hair together and then just put it in a little ball just to see how much I lose every day. And it was a crazy amount. So seeing that, I was just so depressed, crying all the time, anxious all the time.

Anyway, I went to the doctor and, yeah, they told me, “You have alopecia areata.” And they were like, “We’re gonna do injections,” directly to my scalp. Very painful, by the way. They did steroids. And I was like okay. And I remember asking – I was crying. On the first day there, I was already crying. I was like, “Is it this gonna get better? Is it just this one?” And they were like, “We cannot tell you. We’ll see.”

Megan Gill: Which is not what you wanna hear.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: No, obviously not! So I remember thinking, I was like okay, this is just a wake up call. This is a wake up call to just be grateful for what I have, for the body that I have right now, for the hair that I have right now. And also, I remember you were just talking at the beginning how me being a nurse and all that in oncology, especially. I remember telling my patients before all this happened to me – I have some women patients, female patients, that they don’t wanna go through chemotherapy or they are very anxious about it because they don’t wanna lose their hair. And I remember looking at them, I was like, “It’s just hair! Just do it! You’re gonna save your life!” But they’re like, “Yeah, but I don’t wanna be bald!” And I remember I didn’t understood, and when this happened to me, I was humbled and I was like I will never say anything like that to any of my patients or any other person because I know now, it’s like losing a part of yourself.

Megan Gill: Yeah, like a part of our core identities as women, a lot of times.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: And you know what? I feel women, we rely a lot on our hair because we that’s one of the only things of our body that we can change on a whim, you know?

Megan Gill: Mm, that’s a good point. I like that. You’re so right.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: It’s like you wanna change it, you can change it. You want another color, you can do another color, you can cut it, you can do this, and it’s still a part of your body, you know?

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: And we’re always trying to change our bodies, and I feel women with our hair, it was a crazy awakening for me.

Megan Gill: Your hair is one of the things you actually have control over, because a lot of times we can’t control, no matter how “healthy” we eat, no matter how much we’re working out or moving our body, my body’s still gonna look this. No matter what I do, I’m still gonna have a belly pooch because that’s just my freaking genetics. Like it’s never going away.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: You cannot do it just one appointment, yeah, and hair you can.

Megan Gill: Oh my god, going through this experience, this traumatic experience, of losing this piece of yourself after already struggling with a body image crisis is so tough, and I can imagine so extremely difficult. Sorry, I feel I put words in your mouth, but I’m just like… wow.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: No, I literally felt I lost myself. I was just on autopilot every day. And honestly alopecia areata – and I say the whole name because that was in my head all day, every day. It was, “Alopecia areata, you have alopecia areata.” And I was like how to get rid of it? I was always looking for things online. I was always looking up other women. When I will go out and to the store or whatever, I will look to see maybe someone else has it. I just felt so lonely at the same time because I felt like nobody else had it. And when I went to my doctor, she told me, “No, I have a lot of patients like you, but it’s a very hard thing that women go through that nobody wants to share it.” And I was like I agree.

Megan Gill: Wow.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: So, yeah. That started happening and my day to day was that I was just crying and not wanting to get in the shower because I didn’t wanna lose hair. It was just my depression was just so bad and the relationship with my body, now, I felt guilty, and I was like I did this to myself. But then at the same time, I just didn’t even care about my body anymore because I was just thinking about my hair. Not in a good way. Not that I wasn’t thinking about my body in a good way. I was just like I don’t have the capacity to be like and on top of that, I wanna lose weight.

Megan Gill: It forced you to shift focus. Not that it was a good, a positive thing that you were now focusing on, but it almost forced you to take the pressure off of your body in a way.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: Yeah. So I started doing everything medically possible, and nothing was really working. I started, I remember the day that I saw a second spot on the other side of my head. I was just like I cannot do this. So I remember my parents will ask me, “How are you doing? Is everything okay with your hair?” And I was yeah, it’s fine. Because I felt if I will talk about it, they wouldn’t understand. And I just felt lonely.

And one day it just got really bad, to me. And I remember explaining to people, “It’s not about seeing the bald spots, it’s about me seeing the hair falling. It’s just so traumatizing. It’s I’m losing more and I’m losing me.

So I remember one night I was like I’m just gonna shave my head because I cannot do this. I was like I’m just gonna shave my head. And I had – how do you call, the ones – you know?

Megan Gill: Like a buzzer?

Roxana Venzor Garcia: Yes, I had one for my dog.

Megan Gill: Oh my gosh, yes.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: Yeah, and I was like I’m just gonna get that. But thankfully I was just so depressed that I couldn’t get out of the bed. The only time that I got out of the bed was to go to work, come back home, take my dog out, and I will literally sleep on the floor of my apartment because I just didn’t have the will to just go to the bed. I was just literally waking up at random places in my apartment every day. So I was just going to work, taking my dog out, because she will wake me up. She will literally lick me to take her out. So that was literally my life. So I’m thankful that I wasn’t able to shave my head because I literally was just like – I didn’t have the energy.

One day I got to my parents’ house and they were like, “How are you doing?” And I just broke down with my dad and I was like, “I’m not doing good. My hair is not looking better.” And I literally just opened my hair to him, and my dad was shocked. And I could see that he wanted to start crying, just for seeing how bad I was feeling. And he talked to my mom, because again, my mom was like, “Oh, you’re fine. Don’t worry, you’ll be fine.” And I literally told my mom, “I’m not fine. Please, I just need your support. I’m not okay,” and I show her, and she was shocked. And then she was like, “Please don’t show me again, because it hurts me.” And I was like, “I get it. But at the same time I’m hurts me too,” you know?

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: And she started praying, and I was like this is bad. My mom is praying for my hair? And I remember that, and I feel like it’s so sweet. But then at the same time I was like that’s so traumatizing too.

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: She was praying for my hair and she was like, “Please,” whatever. Then my mom was like, “I feel someone is being very envious or jealous of you, and that’s what’s happening.” The Hispanic, the Mexican in her. And she’s like, “You need to go and see this guy, and he will help you, and blah, blah, blah.” And I was like I don’t wanna do that. I don’t believe in that, and I don’t wanna do that. Then my mom kept calling me and telling me to do it, and I was like you know what? I’m so desperate that I’m just gonna go see this witch.

So I literally called this guy, didn’t even see him in person, FaceTimed this guy, and he was just – it was even worse. He just told me so many things, and I was like okay, this is way worse. I remember just calling my parents and was like, “I know it’s hard. I know you guys don’t get it. At this point, I just need your guys’ support. I just need support. I don’t need any more, ‘Hey, try this oil. Hey, try this thing.’ I just don’t need that.” I was like, “I just need support.” I was just so lucky that I had my best friend – you know, her – Kiara, and she was very understanding. She was very helpful. I’m so grateful for her. At that time she was like, “No, I understand. You need support,” and that was it, I just had support. And then I was doing great. I did everything medically possible for it. It wasn’t helping very much, but it was getting – it was halting the process. That happened September.

In December, I went on a trip to the UK and I was like you know what? I’m just gonna leave on a trip. I left my dog with my cousin while I was there – two days before my – yeah, you know already – they called me and they told me that my dog is dying, so I had to come back. I, thankfully, was able to come back and say goodbye to my dog and put her down because I had to.

Megan Gill: I’m so sorry.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: Yeah, thank you. And after that, everything got – if it was already bad, it got worse because the only thing that was keeping me literally functional was my dog, and I didn’t have that anymore. So I didn’t wanna be in my apartment anymore, because that was just a reminder of the life that I had with my dog. And my parents were very supportive. Literally, the night that my dog passed away, they had my bag. I didn’t know. They went to my apartment, took everything out, and they were like, “You’re moving back home with us. Don’t worry about it. You just need time right now to heal and focus on you.” And I was like, “Okay.” I was grieving my dog and I was grieving my hair at the same time.

It was the hardest time. If I thought that alopecia was bad already, just grieving my dog of 16 years and my hair, my life, everything. It was just hard. And that’s when I started therapy. I moved back with my parents, I started therapy, and again, the body image issues came to top. My therapist was like, “You struggle with body image since you’re very little,” and she was like, “I feel that this is your body telling you that you need to love your body. You need to be nicer to yourself because you are getting sick from this.” Because I literally did everything possible. We did every single test to try and find a reason for my alopecia, and there was none. There are some people that there’s no reason at all. They say stress is a very big part of alopecia areata, but don’t have an actual thing that, “Okay, you have alopecia areata because of this.”

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: But they told me I probably had lupus, I probably have an immune disease, I probably have all this, and everything came back negative. And I was like what is it? What is it? And my mom, I remember she told me, “I feel like it’s you. You’re just so anxious and depressed, and you’re just not doing well, and your body’s literally telling you you’re not.”

So after my dog passed away, in January I started therapy. It wasn’t helping very much, to be honest. I was still just crying every day, feeling – now on top of everything, I was feeling a failure because I was back home with my parents and it was a lot.

One day, my mom – mind you, I don’t wanna generalize and say all Mexicans, but I can assure you that 90% of Mexican parents don’t believe in depression, they don’t believe in mental health issues, and they don’t believe in therapy or psychiatrists.

Megan Gill: I feel that’s also just the boomer generation in general, because my parents are the same.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: They’re like, “If I did it without therapy, you can do it.”

Megan Gill: Right. “Surely you can.” Like, no, guys. There’s a different way, okay?

Roxana Venzor Garcia: Exactly. So January I was already living with my parents for a month, and literally one day my mom sat me down and she started bawling her eyes out. She was crying, and she’s like, “I want you to be better. I want you to feel good.” She was like, “I hate to see you like this.” And I was like, “What do you mean?” Because I thought I was hiding it because I will just cry in my room and just be on autopilot. She was like, “You’re not doing good, and your hair is never gonna grow if you are like this.” She was like, “Please go to a psychiatrist.” And I was like, “Psychiatrist? What?” I was like, “You, telling me about a psychiatrist?” And she was like, “Please, you probably need medications. You’re depressed, you are anxious, you need something.” And I remember just thinking and thinking. I was like if my mom, my Mexican mom that didn’t believe in this told me to do it, how bad am I doing? How bad am I doing that they can tell when I thought I was so good at hiding it.

So I started. I went to the psychiatrist, and honestly, I was also very like – I believe in therapy, I believe in psychiatrists. But I was like, “I’m never gonna be on pills. I’m not gonna do it.” So that was judgmental on my part because I was like I think I’m gonna be good with therapy. That’s what I thought all my life. For me it was like once you need meds, no, that’s bad. I talked to my psychiatrist and she diagnosed me with PTSD from the alopecia, PTSD, anxiety, and depression. And she was like, “Your depression – I feel the way that you were raised and the way that you are, your depression is not like the common depression that you’re in bed and you cannot go to work,” and blah, blah, blah. She’s like you have a functional depression, but still there.

Megan Gill: It’s the sneaky kind. It’s just hiding in the shadows, but it’s actually something that is deeply affecting your body, yeah.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: Yes, exactly. And she was like, “Let’s start the medications,” and I was like, “Okay.”

Megan Gill: Oh, I’m glad that, as resistant as you were to them, I’m so glad that you trusted her.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: I was just doing whatever they told me because I was like I got this far by doing the things that I thought they were okay and by the beliefs that I have, I am just gonna leave it to other people at this point, I honestly was just like I’m just gonna – whatever they tell me to do, I’m gonna do.

At the same time I went to my dermatologist and, again, I was a mess. Every time I was with her I was crying shaking, because they will look through my whole hair and they will find spots and that will be the end of me. I will just start crying. I’d be like, “You find another one?” She’s like, “Yeah,” and they will hold my hand, they will hug me because I will be a mess.

Megan Gill: Because it’s every time you go, I imagine, you’re like, “Is it getting better? Is it getting better? Is it getting worse?” And how do you even mentally prepare yourself for hearing either?

Roxana Venzor Garcia: They were like, “Hey, there’s another one, but it’s okay. It’s very tiny.” And I was like I already know it’s gonna get bigger, I already know. And I remember I went that time, it was the beginning of January, and she told me, “I don’t wanna see you here until you get help.” And I was like, “What do you mean?” And she’s like, “We’re not doing this anymore. I need you to get help because mentally you are not okay.” I was like, “I just went to the psychiatrist.” And she’s like, “Perfect. Just do that. And then once you’re ready, I’ll be happy to see you again, but I don’t wanna see you right now. Let’s take a couple months off the treatment. Stop doing everything you’re doing, Stop the oils, stop everything, and just focus on that. Focus on healing. You are not doing well.”

So that’s when everybody was like you’re not doing well. And I was yeah, I know. I started my treatment, and it changed my life. I am a huge supporter of if you need meds, do you. Do whatever you need to do for your mental health, for your sanity, for whatever you need to do to feel good, do it. Of course, if it’s legal.

Megan Gill: No. Yeah, absolutely. And I’m just like, dude, yes. This is such a big piece of the body image conversation. Whatever you need to feel good in your body – our brains are in our body. There’s so much more than just our physical body, right? It’s like, oh my gosh, our mental health is such a big piece of the conversation. So I am so glad that you are touching on this. Yes, sorry to interrupt, but I’m just like yes.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: Yeah. No, because it’s true. As soon as I started taking care of my mental health, my negative thoughts that I always had, I remember waking up and, “Oh, I’m so fat. Oh, I hate my thighs. Ugh, I hate this. Ugh!” I will just be all the time talking so badly to myself because that’s what you do when you grow up hating your body, that’s the main goal, changing it.

Megan Gill: Right. “What am I working on now? What do I see that I hate now?” Yeah. Oh my god, yes.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: Yes, literally. I remember, if you ask me, and I feel like a lot of women if you ask them, “What’s your favorite part of your body?” they will say their hair because it’s your body., but at the same time, as I said, it’s something you can change and that you can mold and do whatever how you want it. So I didn’t have that anymore. I was having to wear headbands. I was having to wear – I wore a wig for a while because it got to the point that it was really bad I was going into this trip, a bachelorette party, and it was only girls. And I remember just feeling – I was like here I am. I’m gonna have to go and put the wig on while they are just doing their hair and they look so pretty. And I was like okay.

So that was a hard thing to do, but at the same time, I just love womanhood, and that trip was one of the best trips ever. We went to the beach. I was so scared of going to the beach because I was gonna have to wet my hair and all that. They were all so supportive. They were like, “Oh, my god, you look so good! Like your hair…” Because my hair looked exactly the same. It didn’t look like a wig. Or maybe that’s what they said because I don’t know. But they were like, “Oh, my gosh, I wish I had one too! You’re ready so quick!” And I was like, “Yeah! Right?”

Megan Gill: Girlhood is the fucking best. Ugh!

Roxana Venzor Garcia: It healed me. It was so healing. I thought I was gonna feel shit next to them. because all of them had their hair. All of them were pretty and beautiful with their hair whatever they wanted. And I had to always had it either in a bun and put in – I mastered the bun, the whatever hair style you wanted to do with alopecia, I know how to do it and I know how to cover it. I had many different things that I bought to dye my hair, dye the bald spots, whatever.

But yeah, girlhood, that trip, it was just amazing. And that was the start of my healing process. I remember I felt beautiful and I was just so confident in my body on that trip because I was like this is what I have right now. I was literally now relying on everything except my hair to feel beautiful. So I was like I need to make the best of it. I need to feel the best. And I felt beautiful. I felt hot on that trip!

Megan Gill: Yes! I love it!

Roxana Venzor Garcia: Literally, I was just – I wasn’t relying on my hair anymore.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Wow.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: That was just so good and for the start of my healing. So yeah, I did that, came back, I started traveling a lot. That’s when I started relying a lot on my family, on my friends. And honestly, that was 2024. I thought that it was gonna be the hardest and the worst year of my life, and it was the best year of my life. My friends threw me a surprise birthday party. They knew that I was going through a lot, and they were there for me. My family was there for me. My friends were there for me, and they were just so supportive.

I finally – with the medications and with therapy, I was feeling so good about myself. And also I started being grateful just for having an able body, because I used to take it for granted and I remember thinking you work in oncology, you see patients on their deathbeds, people your age. I see girls my age, I see people that are younger than me tied to a bed, not able to walk, not able to eat on their own, not able to even go to the bathroom on their own, and here I am complaining that I don’t like my thighs, and I’m like these thighs have me moving! These thighs have me taking care of people that cannot take care of themselves.

Megan Gill: That’s really powerful.

Roxana Venzor Garcia: I started seeing things differently.

“ I have some women patients, female patients, that they don’t wanna go through chemotherapy or they are very anxious about it because they don’t wanna lose their hair. And I remember looking at them, I was like, “It’s just hair! Just do it! You’re gonna save your life!” But they’re like, “Yeah, but I don’t wanna be bald!” And I remember I didn’t understood, and when this happened to me, I was humbled and I was like I will never say anything like that to any of my patients or any other person because I know now, it’s like losing a part of yourself. And you know what? I feel women, we rely a lot on our hair because we that’s one of the only things of our body that we can change on a whim, you know? It’s like you wanna change it, you can change it. You want another color, you can do another color, you can cut it, you can do this, and it’s still a part of your body, you know?”

- Roxana Venzor Garcia

Roxana is a 31-year-old oncology nurse from the north of Mexico, living in Redondo Beach after moving here in 2017. She loves making people laugh, she’s obsessed with dogs, and she’s constantly picking up new hobbies — currently running, plant parenting, and learning how not to kill her indoor plants. She loves traveling and camping, and while she has alopecia areata, it’s just one of the many things that makes her her.

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A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:

* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.

* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.

* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.

Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!

While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers.

Everyone please welcome my mama, Dona Gill, to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! I somehow swindled her into sitting down with me when I was home over Thanksgiving to have a conversation. She was hesitant to say yes, but I’m so thankful she did because I walked away from our conversation a more empowered woman.

In our conversation, we discuss…

* When little kids start to recognize their bodies are different

* SlimFast, Zumba, and all of the diets/workouts we tried as I was growing up

* The dynamic between my mom and her mom as she was growing up

* Older generations of women being raised for survival vs. 90s kids being raised to harp on every physical flaw

* Body comparison and desire to hide your body

* Finding your own personal priorities when it comes to our health and your movement practice

* How our relationship with seeing yourself in the mirror vs. seeing yourself in photos can be so different

* Complimenting others and receiving compliments yourself (Mama Gill is here for the compliments!)

* The cultural acceptance of a belly being viewed as beautiful when pregnant and unattractive when not

* The experience of looking in the mirror and seeing your mother

This conversation could have gone so many ways, and it was lovely to follow where it led. (Though I know I want to have her back for another conversation in 2026!) I’m so grateful for my mom - she raised me the best she could. She put me in dance and gave me the gift of mobility and flexibility without even recognizing that’s what she was doing. She moved with me in Zumba classes and at little boutique gyms for women because it was a fun way for us to connect. My body image issues didn’t fully stem from her as much as they stemmed from social and cultural conditioning, and for that I am grateful. But being a woman in today’s society comes with its inherent body image norms and standards that we naturally gravitate towards adhering to. It was intriguing to explore some of these topics with my mom and hear her thoughts.

We shared a few really lovely moments in our conversations of things that I did not know about my own mama, and it was lovely to listen to her open up about her relationship to her body. I hope you enjoy our chat and that it might inspire you to have similar conversations with your own mom about these topics ♥️

“I always thought I was fat. Even though I was size 14, I always thought I was fat. I don’t know why. I just always thought that and I really wasn’t ever, but it never brought me down. It was just a comparing thing, but it never made me feel bad, that I know of. But I always thought I was fat. Like I couldn’t wear a two-piece until our honeymoon. And then I could. Because I just felt I couldn’t. I felt I was fat and I really wasn’t. And in today’s world it’s not at all, not at all how I was feeling at the time. But it didn’t bring me down, and I didn’t think anything of it, really. Just like, ‘No, I can’t wear that. I’ll wear this instead.’”

- DONA GILL

Megan Gill: Hi, mom!

Dona Gill: Hi, daughter.

Megan Gill: Mama Gill is here today having a conversation with me! I’m home for Thanksgiving.

Dona Gill: Yay!

Megan Gill: And I somehow conned her into sitting down to talk with me.

Dona Gill: So much fun!

Megan Gill: So, I’m glad you’re here, mom.

Dona Gill: Me too.

Megan Gill: And thank you for being open to talking with me. Do you wanna start by just introducing yourself and your work that you do in the world?

Dona Gill: My name is Dona Gill. I’m Megan’s mommy. I am a kindergarten teacher, and I’ve been a teacher for many years.

Megan Gill: Yes. Okay. So you’re teaching young people – young, young, young, young people.

Dona Gill: Five-, and six-year-olds right now.

Megan Gill: And before you had me, you were teaching third grade.

Dona Gill: Correct.

Megan Gill: And I know that you substituted me when I was in high school…

Dona Gill: Middle school. I never did high school. Elementary and middle school.

Megan Gill: So you’ve taught an array of different-aged children over the years.

Dona Gill: Yessiree.

Megan Gill: How interesting. Is there anything, specifically in kindergarten? Like, are little kids aware of their bodies and what they look like in space?

Dona Gill: Not really. Once in a great while you might hear someone say, “You’re fat,” just to be mean. Once, I’ve maybe heard it once or twice, maybe. They don’t recognize skin color until we say something, till we’re teaching about it. Not really, I try to teach positivity in the classroom. So yeah, I don’t hear a lot of it.

Megan Gill: That’s really interesting. And also just sad that young kids are still thinking calling somebody fat is an insult, you know?

Dona Gill: Yessiree.

Megan Gill: Yeah, and how that’s still very much baked into our culture.

Dona Gill: Yes, it is.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Okay. So obviously I grew up in the nineties and early two thousands, in a time where thin was definitely in and the term people like to say “heroin chic” was a thing where everybody was very skinny and everybody in the media was preaching thinness, and diet culture was rampant. And god, I know we were on SlimFast and we were in random workout classes when I was in like middle school working out together, which was actually kind of fun and empowering to be like working out together when I was young. I think that’s pretty cool that we did that, like mother daughter.

Dona Gill: I think we just did it for fun to be together.

Megan Gill: Yeah, it was fun.

Dona Gill: And to let’s just do it.

Megan Gill: But also it’s interesting because there still was totally like this cultural overarching like, “Oh, but let’s lose weight!” I remember it being like that, and I think it’s so interesting because for us it was more “fun,” like it was more enjoyable. I remember having a good time with it, but it’s also just like, damn, man. Still, there’s like the under-arcing layer there, like the invisible layer almost of like, “Okay, but we’re gonna do this because we’re gonna lose weight.”

Dona Gill: Mm-hmm. “And it’s gonna work.”

Megan Gill: And it’s gonna work, instead of like, “Oh, let’s go move our bodies because it’s joyful and because it’s fun and because, oh, it’s good for you and because you should be moving your bodies.” It’s interesting because I don’t know that I learned – granted I did grow up doing a bunch of different sports and dancing, and I’m very grateful to you for putting me in dance. So grateful. So beyond grateful, because my body’s able to move in these ways now, and it’s able to stretch in these ways that I think is just inherent. I’m realizing more and more as I’m like in different yoga classes and just experiencing different types of movement and moving my body in different ways, I’m realizing, oh, not everybody gets to move like this and has this much ease in their body. And I’m just so grateful to you. You probably didn’t even realize at the time.

Dona Gill: I just wanted to find something that you enjoyed doing.

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Dona Gill: To pursue. And I’m glad it was dance because I loved watching you.

Megan Gill: Yeah, me too. Me too. Sorry, I took that on a tangent. But it’s interesting because – I’m trying to tie it back to what we were saying before…

Dona Gill: Doing it for fun or now you can move.

Megan Gill: Right, I don’t know that I was taught movement is good for you and I don’t think that’s at any fault to you. I don’t know that you would’ve known to even teach that at that time that our culture was in. I think we’ve come so far in the past 30 years of understanding how important movement is and how important activity is and how important eating your daily greens or whatever, just these different things to, to keep our body going, to keep the longevity of our body up and just – yeah, it’s so sad how much diet culture was baked into all of the things that we were doing, and I guess that’s my perspective on it.

So I’m more so curious to take it back further to when you were like a kid, teenager coming into your body as a young woman. And I’m really curious to know what the dynamic between you and your mom was, or you also have an older sister. So I’m curious to know if there was anything there in terms of what you learned about your body as a young woman, and then I don’t know if culture has impact into that as well, social conditioning, cultural conditioning. I’m just curious kind of what your experience was with all of that.

Dona Gill: Not a lot. There really wasn’t. It wasn’t body image because I was size 14 all the time. So I never thought anything of it, unless maybe I would go with my sister who’s shorter and maybe slightly chubbier, but not really. And then she would always say, “Everything always looks so good on you. Everything looks good on you whenever you would try something on.” And my mom would always say, “Yeah, that looks good. Yeah, that looks good.” So I never thought anything of it. I don’t think it was really a big deal in my eyes growing up.

Megan Gill: Okay. So your mom didn’t have a lot to say about your body?

Dona Gill: No.

Megan Gill: That’s pretty fucking cool, honestly.

Dona Gill: No, never thought about it. Never. No. Yeah. Not at all.

Megan Gill: Okay. This is also interesting though, because your mom is first generation in the US?

Dona Gill: Correct.

Megan Gill: Okay. So I wonder just like how much that impact also had on like her upbringing.

Dona Gill: Right, because I don’t think their upbringing was body image. Their upbringing was survive. Survive. What do we eat? Can you get anything to wear? Just survive. Not how you look.

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Dona Gill: And then they brought that to us, really. Yeah, really, I had no clue on body image.

Megan Gill: Can you pinpoint a time, even like beyond young adulthood, a time in your earlier life, even in your twenties where you started to get messaging that you maybe should be…

Dona Gill: I always thought I was fat. Even though I was size 14, I always thought I was fat. I don’t know why. I just always thought that and I really wasn’t ever, but it never brought me down. It was just a comparing thing, but it never made me feel bad, that I know of. But I always thought I was fat. Like I couldn’t wear a two-piece until our honeymoon. And then I could.

Megan Gill: Why not?

Dona Gill: Because I just felt I couldn’t. I felt I was fat and I really wasn’t. And in today’s world it’s not at all, not at all how I was feeling at the time. But it didn’t bring me down, and I didn’t think anything of it, really. Just like, “No, I can’t wear that. I’ll wear this instead.”

Megan Gill: Just so sad that you thought you couldn’t wear it, that you thought you couldn’t exist in the world in a fucking two-piece bikini, you know? God forbid!

Dona Gill: I mean, I could have. I just felt I couldn’t, I did as a little kid. Well, no, take that back because my mom wouldn’t let us wear a two-piece when we were little. It was just the way she was at the time. Then when I could, I’m like, “Yeah, I don’t know if it looks good.” But then again, I was also from the seventies where everything was very, very skimpy. Very skimpy. And maybe I didn’t feel the best about me not being in clothes. Maybe.

Megan Gill: Wait, you didn’t feel the best about – you wanted to cover up.

Dona Gill: Right, right.

Megan Gill: That was your comfort zone.

Dona Gill: So not so much body image, but more just cover up.

Megan Gill: Like feeling like you need to hide your body?

Dona Gill: Yeah. I guess, maybe, but not really hide – in between.

Megan Gill: Okay. Yeah, she was giving modest.

Dona Gill: There you go. Yeah. I guess modest. I don’t know.

Megan Gill: Okay. How does it feel now to be in your sixties – we celebrated your 65th birthday in Florida last year, and you were in a two piece swimsuit!

Dona Gill: Oh, I did.

Megan Gill: Okay! How does that feel?

Dona Gill: The words you always use. It’s empowering, but still embarrassing. So both.

Megan Gill: Why embarrassing?

Dona Gill: Because I don’t like the way I look in it. I mean, certain ones, yeah, okay. But I know because I’m unhealthy, so that’s why.

Megan Gill: Because you’re unhealthy. Why do you say that?

Dona Gill: Because extra poundage is not healthy.

Megan Gill: Not necessarily on your body always.

Dona Gill: It would help with my arthritis if I didn’t have it.

Megan Gill: Sometimes your body is just gonna exist at an even-keel weight.

Dona Gill: And it does. And that is interesting because I was always a certain weight growing up. I was like 128 always, always until I had you guys. And then I went up to like 142, and I stayed at that forever and ever and ever and ever. And then I hit the old age, and now, whew. It’s gone up now.

Megan Gill: Okay. Well it’s very fascinating. I just wanna point this out because I also distinctly remembered my weight in terms of numerology but I’m just like blown away, also, by the fact that you said you at that time were a size 14 for as long as you can remember. But that you weighed 128 pounds. And I’m just am so fascinated by the correlation of those two numbers and what we in our brains today, someone who’s my age who’s thinking like, okay. Well, I weigh a lot more than that. And I am not a size – I’m smaller than a size 14. I’m like a size 8/10 right now.

Dona Gill: Oh yeah. Interesting.

Megan Gill: And it’s just so fascinating how I think we just like – I don’t know, I’m just like, damn, that’s wild. We cling to these numbers sometimes or these numbers can haunt us sometimes or we think like, you know, obviously as women we know that if you try on a size 30 (or whatever your go-to size is) at 10 different stores, the pants are all gonna fit differently. And I just think also it’s, I don’t know. I don’t know. I just think it’s interesting.

Dona Gill: I thought it was fascinating that I could stay that weight no matter what. I could eat a lot of candy; I could not eat candy. I could eat healthy; I could not eat healthy. I could eat anything I wanted. I was always the same weight at each of the three periods of time. Even today, either way I go I’m around the same weight.

Megan Gill: And that’s what I mean when I say sometimes our bodies are just supposed to exist around this baseline level. That’s where I feel like I’ve finally reached a place of like, my body is just going to be this. It’s never going to – I’m going to have to do things I don’t wanna have to do to it in order to be smaller, and it’s just not worth it to me. I just don’t want to do that. And I’ve come to this place of like radical acceptance of, “Okay. All right. I refuse to live like that. So this is just the way that my body is.” And it also does feel – I don’t know if it feels for you – for me it feels freeing to be able to be like, “Okay, it, it’s fine.” I can come here for Thanksgiving and not be in my normal movement routine and, you know, maybe not be eating in the same patterns that I would back at home and not feel like I have to beat myself up for that or not feel like so scared that I’m gonna gain weight, or even if I do fluctuate a few pounds,my body’s still gonna generally look like this, because that’s just like where it wants to exist at.

Dona Gill: Right. You think you eat a lot, but it’s a lot for your body at the time. So that’s I think why you stay in your weight. That’s why I think no matter how much you eat or how much less you eat, you’re gonna end up at the same just because that’s who you are and that’s just your pattern. At least that’s what I’ve found over the years.

Megan Gill: Yeah, that’s really interesting.

Dona Gill: Mm-hmm. I would love to go back to that weight before and stick around that. But it’s not happening. That’s all right.

Megan Gill: Okay. Well, you’re also working a full-time job teaching kindergartners. You need to give yourself a little bit of grace too. It’s really hard. It’s hard to be dedicated to, again, like how far are you willing to go? How far do you have the capacity to go to change your body, and what is important to you at this time? If right now what’s important to you is getting through this next – she’s about to retire, everyone getting through this next –

Dona Gill: Yay!

Megan Gill: – six months to just get to the end of the year so that you can maybe start to focus on yourself a little bit more next year? Then that’s what you gotta do to get through, you know?

Dona Gill: I think that’s a good motto. I think that’s good. Just keep pushing on.

Megan Gill: Yeah, or finding what’s important for you because that’s gonna be different for everyone, you know? And finding the why behind sure, we wanna, you know, get back to where we were before, but why?

Dona Gill: I wanna be healthy, and I feel like I wanna move more and I want clothes to look better on me, my perception of looking better.I think I look good in the mirror, but then when I see a picture of me, I’m like, “Oh, whoa. No, that didn’t look very good.”

Megan Gill: Wait, okay. Tell me why. I’ve had this conversation recently with multiple people.

Dona Gill: Oh, really?

Megan Gill: Yes! And it’s so fascinating because it’s like these two reflective things for us, right? The mirror and photos, video, whatever it is for you. And how we can have a strong relationship with our body and what we see in the mirror in the present moment, and then in hindsight, retrospect, you see this image captured of you, and your relationship to that is off. And it also makes a lot of sense. And I think that it’s like, I don’t know, if I were to sit here and be like, “Which is more important, your relationship with the mirror or your relationship with photos?” Like, I don’t know. I think it’s, it’s so nuanced and, you know, obviously different for each person and –

Dona Gill: I don’t think you can have one or the other. Because you see yourself in both all the time, especially now with the use of phones and photos and internet, social media.

Megan Gill: Right I just mean like, if you were to have a strong relationship with one or the other, is what I mean. I would almost want people to have a strong relationship with what they say reflected in the mirror.

Dona Gill: That’s probably what I have, because I don’t like to look at photos. I will ignore them.

Megan Gill: Well, exactly. It gets convoluted with photos and I think it’s hard too because it’s like this other thing captured, and depending on literally how you’re standing, what you’re wearing, right? All these different – the lighting, all these different factors come into play in photos that it’s like we, I think, have to sort of look at them with a grain of salt anyways. I tell myself this all the time as well. What really matters is what’s going on in your body in the present moment in the mirror. And I know that – that’s not to discount the fact that certain people do have a tough relationship with what they see in the mirror. Granted, hello, not every single day do I love what I see in the mirror either, you know?

Dona Gill: Oh, I agree.

Megan Gill: But it’s so interesting that you bring that up.

Dona Gill: Interesting. Yeah.

Megan Gill: Okay. So you find yourself avoiding looking at them.

Dona Gill: Mm-hmm. Even avoiding mirrors a lot.

Megan Gill: Oh, and avoiding mirrors, even though you don’t mind what you see in the mirror?

Dona Gill: Well, because in the morning I like looking at what do I look like for the day? Okay, this is how I’m presenting myself for the day. I could change something if I need to, if I’m looking at the mirror, but later on, if I’m passing a mirror, I can’t change my outfit. I can’t change my hair. I’ve gotta just keep on going with what I see. And you’re like, oh, maybe I shouldn’t have picked that out today, so that’s why.

Megan Gill: Oh, I experience that as well. It’s interesting. It’s like a fear of seeing something you don’t like in yourself, which is valid. It’s so valid. But I think also the difficulty in that, or the difficult thing to put yourself through is the acceptance of, okay, well, can’t change it. This is what I chose. We’re rolling with it, and we’re gonna try to just breathe and be like, it’s okay.

Like for me, my makeup, I’ve been doing different makeup lately, and like when I put it on, I’m like, ooh, I love it. And I love the way I look. I go live the day. At the end of the day I look in the mirror and I’m like, oh my god, I was walking around like this? It’s kind of like smudged and I don’t know, it’s just whatever! I was living my life. And I think we put so much pressure on ourselves to like, be perfect, look perfect all the time. It’s like, for what?

Dona Gill: I think I really like when someone says, “Oh, you look good in that today. Oh, you look good today, or you look happy today, or you look something” I’m like, okay, I’m doing pretty good today. I think I need that every day.

Megan Gill: I love that! It’s important because also it’s like you look happy. You look good. Like you don’t look ill, you don’t look unwell. I think that those are two really important compliments to pay someone. You know?

Dona Gill: I try to do that to others too. Yes. “I really like what you’re wearing today,” or “That color looks really good on you.”

Megan Gill: Or even I’ve been having an interesting battle of like, okay, I am trying to just not pay people so many appearance based compliments. But also it’s like, well, we can’t discount the fact that we are visual creatures and…

Dona Gill: And they took the time to pick out that outfit.

Megan Gill: Exactly. It’s art!

Dona Gill: So like, that looks really good on you today. That color is really good. Someone the other day said to me, “That color is really good on you, Mrs. Gill.” It’s an adult, but doesn’t matter. “That looks really good on you.” So then I’m like, okay, what color is that? What color looks good on me? So then I try to do more of that color on me.

Megan Gill: It’s so true. It’s a creative process to put together.

Dona Gill: So I appreciate those compliments.

Megan Gill: Yeah, me too. Do not get me wrong. Some girl yesterday was like, “Ah, I love your shoes!” I’m like, “Thanks, lemme tell you, I got them on sale at Marshalls, I love them too, so thank you!” I don’t know that there is anything wrong with it. But I think it’s also just having the awareness of how it made you feel when someone said, “You look happy! You look good!”

Dona Gill: “Aww, thank you!”

Megan Gill: Like, “Oh my god, thanks!” Because that also just speaks so much more than just your appearance. It speaks to like your character and your soul and how you’re, you know, affecting other people.

Dona Gill: And you can kind of tell if the person really means it or if they’re just saying it to say it. You kinda know the people – or yesterday that girl about your shoes seemed just really interested because she was really looking at ‘em, and it’s not like you were just walking by and she just said it because.

Megan Gill: Okay, but here’s the thing, I don’t know – granted, I don’t know every person in the world, but I don’t know that people pay a compliment – I don’t know that a lot of people pay a compliment unless they mean it. At least that’s my take, because I’m not gonna pay a compliment unless…

Dona Gill: Sometimes at a job you might pay a compliment just because you need to say it, but then you find something good to try and make a compliment. Sometimes in your family you might do that just to keep the peace or knowing that that person needs to feel good.

Megan Gill: Oh, okay. That’s fair!

Dona Gill: But then it’s usually you find something that’s really good to make that compliment about. But there are people that just make a random compliment.

Megan Gill: I guess, maybe, but I don’t know. That’s my take. My optimistic outlook.

Dona Gill: That’s a good take. Good job.

Megan Gill: Thanks. Thanks, mom.

Dona Gill: I think one of the best times that I felt really good about myself was when I was pregnant because our heredity is the tummy, that’s just my family all has it going way back as far as I know.

Megan Gill: The belly. Yep.

Dona Gill: The belly. So when I was pregnant, people would say, “You look good!” And I’m like, “Yeah, I do. Because now I can have a belly and it’s okay to have a belly when I’m pregnant..”

Megan Gill: Oh my god.

Dona Gill: So I used to think I looked really good pregnant.

Megan Gill: Wow.

Dona Gill: So maybe I should have had more kids.

Megan Gill: Wait. That is honestly a really important thing that you just pointed out. And something that I, obviously, I’ve never been pregnant myself yet, but something that I think about all the time in myself and how it’s just so wildly accepted and beautiful and seen as this magnificent thing when you’re pregnant and your belly is big, but then when a woman is just not pregnant and has a belly, it’s seen as gross or unhealthy or unattractive, and it’s like – wow, I’m just like sitting with that. I don’t even have anything to say about that. I’m just like, that dichotomy is crazy to me and just how much pressure society puts on women and how much pressure women put on women and media puts on women.

Like, okay, I’ve been watching a show called, Nobody Wants This on Netflix. Have you seen it yet?

Dona Gill: No. No, not yet.

Megan Gill: The women in it – I love the show, and they’re all so talented and lovely, but they’re all just very straight-sized bodies with not a lot of curve action going on. And the men in the show – there’s a scene where you see one of the leading men with his shirt off and he has a belly, and I’m like, of course it’s normalized for a man on this television show on Netflix to be seen with a shirt off with a belly, but none of the women probably even have that belly. And I say probably because we just don’t know, but just like how the double standard is so crazy and yeah, we are getting somewhere. We’re getting somewhere. We’re starting to talk about this stuff. The media is starting to shift, but it’s also still so prevalent. It’s like, damn, well, I just wanna see a woman that looks like me, or even someone bigger, or someone, a mom – I mean, granted, a lot of times mothers are perceived to have bigger bodies, which is another piece to the conversation. But just seeing people with not perfectly-thin bodies in these leading roles on TV and like showing the elements of them, like the belly that I have, I wanna see somebody in a bathing suit in a Netflix series with a belly like mine!

Dona Gill: That would be nice. That would be nice.

Megan Gill: Yeah, so I’m hopeful that we’ll get there, but it’s just like, god, wow. I took that and ran with it. But how fascinating that you felt the most, what did you say, beautiful when you were pregnant. But also, how magnificent is that? Because you were making a life.

Dona Gill: Ha ha ha ha - you!

Megan Gill: Like of course you felt beautiful, you know?

Dona Gill: Oh, true. Mm-hmm.

Megan Gill: But also, damn, because, what? You were pregnant with two kids. So 18 months of your life were you pregnant, and then all the other time you maybe didn’t feel what you felt while you were pregnant. And it’s like, I want you to be able to feel that. Yeah. I think that’s the important piece of this here. Yeah.

Dona Gill: Guess so.

Megan Gill: Is there anything else you wanna chat about?

Dona Gill: For me? No. I don’t think so.

Megan Gill: Okay. It’s good – you’re gonna cry.

Dona Gill: The sun also is on my eyes. Anything else you wanna know about me?

Megan Gill: Yeah! I wanna know what your favorite thing or things about your body are. They can be physical, non-physical, one of each. Whatever comes to mind. Totally up to you.

Dona Gill: My favorite thing? My eyes. Eyes.

Megan Gill: I do like your eyes.

Dona Gill: I like that. I used to like my legs now, not so much anymore. They’re getting old.

Megan Gill: They still carry you from place to place.

Dona Gill: Yeah. Hard though. Hard. Yeah. I guess I like my mind with people.

Megan Gill: That’s a good one!

Dona Gill: Being able to socialize or being able to teach, being able to love, have fun.

Megan Gill: Yeah, all important shit.

Dona Gill: Other than that, maybe my nose.

Megan Gill: I do like your nose.

Dona Gill: A short little stubby nose, yeah. Otherwise, everything’s starting to get old and wrinkly, old and wrinkly and sun spots.

Megan Gill: Well, I think that’s beautiful. I like your sun spots.

Dona Gill: Thank you. Well, I’m glad you do.

Megan Gill: I have some too, so I’m glad I’m looking at my future.

Dona Gill: Well, I’m glad. You are sadly yes.

Megan Gill: Don’t say sadly!

Dona Gill: When I look in the mirror and say, “Oh my gosh, that’s my mom looking at me,” when I look in the mirror. And I never thought I would look like her, but I do now.

Megan Gill: Oh god. Okay, what’s that experience like?

Dona Gill: Very strange when you see the wrinkles in the same spots that she had. Like, gosh, I look like her. I never thought I would. It’s just – it’s strange.

Megan Gill: “I never thought I would.”

Dona Gill: I never thought I would, but it is a good connection. Then you’re like, “Okay, yeah, that was my mom.”

Megan Gill: Yeah. That’s powerful. That’s really powerful. Wow.

Dona Gill: We come from her.

Megan Gill: And how silly it would be to want to change those things that remind you of your mom.

Dona Gill: True.

Megan Gill: Not that you would, but I think that a lot of women see wrinkles as – yeah.

Dona Gill: Oh, for sure. Would I like some plastic surgery? Yes, for sure. Am I gonna do it? No.

Megan Gill: Why do you think you would like it? Because society told you that it’s an option and that… you could do it?

Dona Gill: Yeah, yes. I just think it would make me look better. Even though that means nothing. People at the store, do they really look at me and say, “Ooh, she’s got that ugly lady walking by”? No. Nobody does that.

Megan Gill: Well, maybe don’t call yourself ugly.

Dona Gill: Okay. That old lady?

Megan Gill: Can I remind you that you’re my mother? Again, I will look like you one day. So please do not call yourself ugly.

Dona Gill: “Look at that beautiful old lady walking by.”

Megan Gill: Exactly!

Dona Gill: “I wanna be like her. I wanna be like her.”

Megan Gill: You are a beautiful.

Dona Gill: Thank you.

Megan Gill: You are welcome.

Dona Gill: I am glad. Do I like my body now? No. Would I love to change it? Yeah. Is it hard to because I’m getting old? Yeah, for sure. So there’s the answer to all your questions.

Megan Gill: Well, thank you for chatting with me today.

Dona Gill: Yeah. Yay.

Megan Gill:I know you were a bit hesitant to sit down and talk.

Dona Gill: Very much, it’s very strange –

Megan Gill: Hopefully cool.

Dona Gill: – to hear you and your podcast voice and then having to answer your questions like that when you’re just my daughter.

Megan Gill: All right.

Dona Gill: And we should just talk.

Megan Gill: Well, thanks for doing it.

Dona Gill: Yeah, sure. Anytime.

Megan Gill: Okay.

Dona Gill: Anytime.

Megan Gill: Okay.

Dona Gill: We’re done.

Megan Gill: We’re done!

Dona Gill: Okay, cool.

Megan Gill: That’s it!

Dona Gill: Oh, my –

“I think one of the best times that I felt really good about myself was when I was pregnant because our heredity is the tummy, that’s just my family all has it going way back as far as I know. The belly. So when I was pregnant, people would say, “You look good!” And I’m like, “Yeah, I do. Because now I can have a belly and it’s okay to have a belly when I’m pregnant.” So I used to think I looked really good pregnant. So maybe I should have had more kids.”

- DONA GILL

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A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:

* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.

* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.

* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.

Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!

While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers.

Everyone please welcome Amy Geist to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Amy Geist and I met on the set of a music video almost ten years ago. We’ve since produced multiple projects together and have both created short films with themes of body image. Amy is a powerhouse filmmaker and a wonderful human being, and she opens up so beautifully in our conversation about incredibly important topics.

In our conversation, we discuss…

* Amy’s short film, “Dysmorphia” and how it’s impacted her body image journey along with others

* A peek into Amy’s body image origin story

* Generational body image cycles

* The mental gymnastics it takes to audition for GLP-1 commercials

* Disconnecting from a deep-shame response when someone sees our body in a certain way

* The nuance of your physical body being tied to your livelihood

* Changing bodies isn’t supposed to be scary

* Compassionately changing the narrative when others put their own bodies down - “it doesn’t have to be that way”

* Stepping away from a triggering industry to heal

It was a pleasure to sit down and chat with Amy. She’s hilarious and also has such an important perspective. I know I was changed from our conversation, so I cannot wait for you to hear it!

“I guess I also don’t have any ill will towards our mothers who sort of unintentionally were doing the best that they could as well in just a fucked up system, you know? Don’t hate the player, hate the patriarchy, you know? Those messages are so just ingrained and can so easily be absorbed by things that – you know, talking about diet culture and sort of orthorexia part of diet culture that pops up and is disguised as health, and so, it’s like, you know, just so many different ways for this messaging to get ingrained in little ones and by, you know, no fault of a parent. But it is, I feel in my experience and in my family, I think the way that it got to me was very much, you know, passed down through different generations and growing up in the nineties and Slim Fast.”

- Amy Geist

Megan Gill: ​Amy, thank you for having this conversation with me today. I am excited to chat.

Amy Geist: Oh, Megan, thank you for asking me.

Megan Gill: Absolutely.

Amy Geist: I’m excited to chat with you too.

Megan Gill: Do you wanna just start by introducing yourself and a little bit about the work that you do in the world?

Amy Geist: Oh, sure. My name is Amy Geist and the work I do in the world is a producer and a writer/director of film and commercial. And then I’m also a burgeoning standup comedian as well over the past couple of years. and yeah, I work with a lot of indie filmmakers, new filmmakers, female filmmakers. Those are kind of my favorite people to work with. Yeah.

Megan Gill: You’ve also created quite a few of your own projects as well.

Amy Geist: Oh, thank you for reminding me. Yes, Megan. I wrote and directed a short film called Dysmorphia, which is a horror film, and around the themes that we’re gonna talk about, of body image and relationship with body and self and beauty standards and how sometimes those are inherited from our moms and from their moms. And I’ve also, as a producer, I guess, a writer and director, have produced a couple of, I guess, series weekends. One was called Fuse, where we had different female writer/directors and shot their films over five day, and they got to use those projects to be their calling card for projects and for to grow into a filmmaker, and a couple of them, one of them got into Sundance, one of them got into Tribeca, and that was kind of one of my favorite experiences as a producer in film. And then I did the weekend Collision Film Initiative, which we did together, where we got to film. Again, female filmmakers coming together to make four short films in a weekend. And those films are making their way through the film festival circuit as well, and giving people a chance to just try out their voice, get to know their voice more as an artist. And now we have these awesome, I guess, calling cards as well for ourselves. I think those are the things I did.

Megan Gill: Yeah, thanks for sharing about them.

Amy Geist: Yeah. Thanks for reminding me.

Megan Gill: Absolutely! Well, it’s cool because you and I met in Chicago, I was thinking about it, almost 10 years ago.

Amy Geist: Oh, wow.

Megan Gill: Which is crazy

Amy Geist: On a music video.

Megan Gill: On a music video, which was actually one of my favorite projects even still to date.

Amy Geist: It was a lot of fun.

Megan Gill: Yeah, it was so unique and just a different acting experience for me at the time –

Amy Geist: Yeah.

Megan Gill: – that really impacted how I viewed film work.

Amy Geist: Yeah.

Megan Gill: And I feel it was an impetus for wanting to do more film work, but then you and I had reconnected because you moved to LA and then I moved to LA, and we reconnected here I wanna say about the time that you were in readings, doing table reads for your short film that you made about body image.

Amy Geist: Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely.

Megan Gill: Right. I feel that’s where we kind of reconnected. And then our story, you and I, you shot your film and then I shortly shot my film A Broadway Body, which you helped me produce, and introduced me to what it is to create your own short film.

Amy Geist: Yes, yes.

Megan Gill: And both of these pieces were centering around body image themes, which I think is really cool. Now, looking back in hindsight. And it’s interesting that these worlds kind of brought us back together here in Los Angeles.

Amy Geist: I know, right?

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Amy Geist: That’s something that I am – I have a joke about that in one of my sets of like, yeah, I waited till LA to go into recovery for an eating disorder. You know, because I a challenge. I don’t wanna make it too easy. So why not go to the one place that makes it hardest to accept yourself.

Megan Gill: Throw yourself to the fire.

Amy Geist: Yeah, just give it a shot. Yeah. duh. Of course we worked together on A Broadway Body. I gotta get better talking about my –

Megan Gill: Oh my god, no, you’re perfectly fine. You do so many things I was even perusing your website just obviously so impressed by all the different things you’re doing and all the different projects you’re working on and how your hands are in all these different creative pots. But yeah, I just thought it was interesting this timeline of – sorry, not to jump in, but this timeline of when we’d met around 10 years ago, I know, at least for me, I was kind of in the throes of my unhealthy relationship to my body and my self-image, and then moving to LA, kind of where you were starting to go with it, and creating this work that’s centered around trying to heal those parts of myself and trying to heal my relationship to my body, and then also being involved in a project where you had written the story around body dysmorphia and those types of themes with how toxic the beauty industry can be. And then now a couple years removed from that, just sitting back, I just think that there’s something really powerful about that.

Amy Geist: Well yeah, I think something that’s cool about the juxtaposition of our projects is just that there’s so much to say around this subject because our films could not be more different, you know? So it’s like, which I think just as a credit to A, our, our different voices as, as artists and filmmakers, and B, how many different angles and points of view you can have on the same subject because it affects just so many people so many women.

Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely 100%. And I think it’s interesting that you chose the theme of horror because Dysmorphia is a horror film. It’s incredible, by the way. I was revisiting parts of it before our conversation. And yeah, some of it is hard, like, going back to it, I was resistant to it. I didn’t wanna watch it. I’m like, ugh, I know this is difficult to watch. So I’m curious how – because I know it was really important to you to talk about these themes in the horror setting, so I’m curious to hear you speak a little bit more on that and how that maybe helps you navigate the topics or helped you find your voice within how you wanted to say what you wanted to say. Yeah. Anything that comes up for you.

Amy Geist: Yeah. I mean, I think, I am myself a horror fan. I always have loved horror and I’ve always, in college I used to write plays and you got to put them on in college for free. And it did not set us up for the realistic experience of making those outside of college. But you got to do it for free. And so you were able to do all this weird stuff, and I had a reputation of like, “Oh, Amy’s weird to put up another weird thing,” because it was just, I think always more interesting to me, to explore from a visceral and what I felt was an honest, more of a place where people could interpret and take away what they wanted from what was going on.

And I think what I liked about horror as a genre for this project in particular was because one of the reasons that I wanted to do it was, you know, going through an eating disorder for 20 years and from when I was 15 to 34 and just the different – the actual experience, the visceral experience of being in it when it was most active and the process of recovery, and never really seeing something in media that reflected that experience of my personal experience of what that was like, of only really ever seeing the Lifetime movies that are very like, “Oh, she stopped eating, but then we took her to the hospital. Now she’s okay,” and just very simplified and sanitized of these struggles and always making it the focus about the pathology of the disorder rather than kind of like, how do we get here?

And so, yeah, that seemed a really good opportunity for Dysmorphia, to really talk about the first person, to encapsulate, I guess, the first-person experience of going through something like that. I want to very much say Dysmorphia is not autobiographical in any way. It is entirely fictional, but it is inspired, yeah, by just the first person experience of going through something like that. So, and I think to really kind of drive home Isabella’s struggle, to visualize her psychological struggles, horrific shadowy figures seemed like the best way to go.

Megan Gill: Did writing and going through the process of creating this piece of art that in some ways reflected your own struggles, at least what I’m garnering from what you’re saying. Was that healing for you in any way?

Amy Geist: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, luckily when I – I guess luckily or not, but when I really kinda started on this process, I was already a couple years into recovery of what I felt was an actual recovery. And so, I think I created a little bit of a buffer of distance with the experience, which I think made it easier for me to make a project about it because I think if I’d still been a little too close to it, it would not have been a healthy experience. So I had a bit of a distance from it, but I do think what was healing was actually talking to, you know, the crew that worked on it, people that saw it, people that read it, and hearing how it made a part of them feel seen and acknowledged, and people coming up and feeling safe to share their story with me and their experience, because they haven’t really felt they’ve seen something that really touched on what they went through in a real way. And so, I think that in itself was – I didn’t expect to happen, but was like, I do think healing and rewarding and a really beautiful experience every time somebody trusted me with that information.

Megan Gill: Yeah, it’s really hitting me in the emos, Amy, because this is your baby. This is your creative baby that you are now tied to in such a beautiful way because, just the fact that it did open up pathways for these conversations to be had and for people to feel seen in this creative piece that you created is so important. And one of the ways that I think we’re continuing to get this conversation rolling and to kind of uncover some of these things that we all experience that we don’t usually talk about because a lot of it is really dark. And a lot of people do struggle – I mean, no matter what level of depth you’re struggling on, it can be difficult to talk about.

Amy Geist: Yeah, and I think that was another thing that horror helped with was it giving it enough of a distance where it didn’t feel quite as raw or touch quite a nerve because you can have that separation of like, “Well, that’s make believe,” you know?

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Amy Geist: You know, “There aren’t really monsters!” So I think allowing people to maybe process it in a different way, yeah.

Megan Gill: Totally. Yeah. I love that. I was perusing some comments because Dysmorphia is on YouTube, an Alter for viewing pleasure (for free!), we will obviously link it to the Substack. But one of the comments that jumped out at me if I can share it –

Amy Geist: Sure.

Megan Gill: – kind of aligned with what we’re speaking about. And I just think that it’s something that I’ve been thinking a lot about lately and just a really beautiful thing that somebody – beautiful, I don’t know, really important thing that somebody said. Okay, so this person said:

“One thing someone once told me helps me fight off the urge to have plastic surgery. My mother passed away some years ago and people always used to say how much we looked alike. Now that she’s gone, the features that I always hate(d) about myself, like my nose and face shape, are the things I want to keep as they are because it reminds me of her and she created me. If I would change them then I would no longer see her when I look in the mirror, discard what she created and not love her face. Thank you mom, miss you so much.”

And this also just brings me to the piece of where you were speaking in the beginning about how a lot of this can be passed down generationally, or when our mothers don’t heal their trauma and their unhealthy relationships to their self-image and their body, it can get passed down to us. I just think that this – I’m just so glad that you made this piece of art because that was a really powerful comment to read.

Amy Geist: That’s beautiful. I definitely got a little emotional listening to that. That’s like – I haven’t read that. I kind of intentionally stopped reading the comments –

Megan Gill: Oh, god, sorry.

Amy Geist: – for my own – no, no, no, no. No, that’s a very good one. That’s a good one. That’s a good one. You know, as any – because if you believe all the good ones, you have to believe the bad ones or whatever. Isn’t that something somebody said? But this is a really good one because I think that’s so beautifully said. And I will say I know a large part of Dysmorphia deals with plastic surgery, and I do wanna say that I believe in bodily autonomy, absolutely. I do not want to demonize anybody that chooses to get plastic surgery. I think it should be a personal choice between you, your doctors, whatever you want to do. And I know this movie can be interpreted as a statement against plastic surgery, so I do wanna say I do not demonize or pass judgment on people who do it. I think it’s you gotta do what you gotta do to feel safe in your body. And I think it was just an element that I use in the film because of just the inherent violence that it comes with surgery. The violence of surgery – I’m personally terrified of getting surgery. I’ve never gotten a major surgery

Megan Gill: Same.

Amy Geist: Right? Yeah, where’s the wood to knock on. Let’s knock on something. And so I think just the inherent violence of voluntarily going under the knife and having your body ripped apart and put back together is just sort of just using that as a way to show the violence that we inflict on ourselves. And so it was more of a tool narratively than of people who do that.

And yeah, I guess, you know, when it comes to the mom, it is just like, oh man, aren’t we little sponges? Just little baby us, we’re just little baby sponges. I guess I also don’t have any ill will towards our mothers who sort of unintentionally were doing the best that they could as well in just a fucked up system, you know? Don’t hate the player, hate the patriarchy, you know?

Megan Gill: It’s so true.

Amy Geist: Those messages are so just ingrained and can so easily be absorbed by things that – you know, talking about diet culture and sort of orthorexia part of diet culture that pops up and is disguised as health, and so, it’s like, you know, just so many different ways for this messaging to get ingrained in little ones and by, you know, no fault of a parent. But it is, I feel in my experience and in my family, I think the way that it got to me was very much a, you know, passed down through different generations and growing up in the nineties and Slim Fast and –

Megan Gill: Oh god, yeah. Yep. Yes.

Amy Geist: Wasn’t that the worst.

Megan Gill: I’m sitting here thinking same! And in the non – what am I trying to say? Like, my mom didn’t push these things onto me in a negative light.

Amy Geist: Right. Mm-hmm.

Megan Gill: There was enthusiasm about it, you know, and it was just disguised with this, this is good for you.

Amy Geist: Yeah.

Megan Gill: It is really sad to think about how unknowingly so many mothers have probably done that to their children. But also, at the same time, I do think it was a very particular era that we grew up in where, side note, I’m gonna have a conversation with my mom over Thanksgiving, and I’m very curious to dive into kind of how this stuff showed up with her mom and if anything was present as she was growing up, because we’ve never really talked about that. And I am just so curious because a lot of what I’ve been thinking about lately in having these conversations is like, okay, obviously I know my experience growing up in the nineties and the early two thousands and a lot of my peers in this same millennial stage of life had a very similar experience. And it’s cool because I do think with the resources now, some of it is shifting. Yes, as toxic as social media can be, the fact that people are even talking about this –

Amy Geist: Yes.

Megan Gill: – online and on a wider scale, or making art about it, it’s becoming more of a topic of conversation I think is really impactful and it’s what’s gonna help drive change. Where our moms, when we were 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years old, there were probably no conversations about how fucked up the Slim Fast regimen was, you know?

Amy Geist: Girl. No. No. There were no conversations about any of anything, really! It was just what was in the new issue of People or Cosmo or on MTV. It was just such a limited funnel of pop culture of messages of, like, “Are you as thin as Naomi Watts?”

—

[Timecode: 26:22]

Amy Geist: It’s a struggle, it is. It’s a gross feeling. The GLP-1 ads, it’s so wild, right? It’s just wild because our industry is wild in that way of, you know, you see the character description of what you’re auditioning for and it’s like, “Interesting faces. We don’t need model faces. We need interesting ones.” And it’s like, “Okay, okay, cool. It’s good to have an interesting face, I guess.” And the way that casting will just talk about your body – and I think it’s been like, I’ve had to check in with myself of like, because in the past, especially when I was closer to my disorder of feeling immense amounts of shame when someone would talk about my body in a certain way. So now being a place where I’ve disconnected myself from a shame reaction when I hear that because it’s like, I mean, that’s just the truth of my body is I have a larger body. So I think the silliest insult that anyone could ever do is like, “Well, you’re fat!” I’m just like, “Okay, well, great job.”

Megan Gill: “You’ve accomplished nothing.”

Amy Geist: Yeah. It’s like, “Are we just saying things that we see?”

Megan Gill: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Amy Geist: “You’re an asshole.” So it’s just like, I think, disconnecting myself from a deep, shameful response when I hear those words. And I think just checking in with myself when I get these auditions. And I think the ultimate irony of these auditions is like, if everyone was taking this, how are you gonna sell it, man? You need my body. You need my body to be this size in order to sell a way to make it smaller. So it’s just wild. You, in one hand, want my body to not exist because you’re selling this product to make it disappear. And yet, if I did not exist, you would be obsolete. So it’s just wild, honestly, every time. There’s definitely been a couple that I’ve said no to. And there have been some that I’ve auditioned for because it’s the reality of, I guess just checking in with myself every time. And, well, let’s be very clear. I’ve never gotten to the point where I was offered a GLP-1 commercial. And so, I do think if I ever got to that point, it would probably be a different conversation internally. So I guess in my mind I’m like, okay, well this is just an audition and I’m just auditioning for this casting director. And then I guess if it comes down to me being the person at the end that’s dancing the salsa or so happy because they’re – you know what I mean, then I would be different. But yeah, it’s wild.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Thanks for sharing your experience with that too. I think it’s helpful just to talk about.

—

[Timecode: 34:32]

Amy Geist: It’s so stressful. And especially what you’re saying in an industry where we’re both pretty reliant on our bodies and the way that they look, and I can’t imagine. That’s gotta be so tough to balance on your end as well of having such an intimate – having to look in the mirror, having to look in the mirror barely clothed, having to stand in front – and there are just so many triggers in there. And so, it seems what you’re going through needs constant sort of vigilance to stay because those voices are always there. They’re stil there.

Megan Gill: Oh yeah. Yep.

Amy Geist: No matter how recovered you are, they’re just waiting. They’re like, “Eh? Is this my chance to come back?”

Megan Gill: Yeah, even not when I’m working, right? Even just on a random Tuesday –

Amy Geist: Yep.

Megan Gill: – they’re still extremely present. So yeah, that is an interesting point about the hyper-vigilance. And even just self taping and having to see yourself in different phases of your cycle on camera. We have to also remember that our bodies change. So as women, our bodies change so much in a four-week cycle. And the way we – at least me, the way I feel in my body changes so much and can trigger certain things too. So I think we just have to continue to remind ourselves and each other that it’s okay to change and that it’s actually really fucking magical, and what a cool thing to get to age. Granted, I’m sitting here at 33 years old. Ask me in ten years, I really hope… I really hope that I can say the same thing. And I think that this project has helped me stay in that mindset and helped me keep my eye on the prize kind of in a way. Like, no, aging is cool and aging is a privilege.

Amy Geist: A privilege. Absolutely.

Megan Gill: And also why would I wanna give all my money to these things that – to this industry that’s trying to make me change so much? No, I actually my smile lines. I want to keep them, you know? But that’s just me. And I think that we maybe, hot take, need a little bit more of people with you and i’s perspective here to kind of combat the noise. Not that any one way is correct because there is no one correct way. It’s gonna be different for everyone, but I’m like, maybe that’s my thought around how we kind of conquer all of these messages we’re hearing about how we do have to change, right?

Amy Geist: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it all starts with of what we both did of doing the homework to heal your own relationship with your body and to be in a place where – and I think doing that will put you in a place where you can hold space for other people, because I think it’s so hard to do that when you can’t – you know, put the mask on the kid before to save yourself. You know, you can’t save everybody at the same time. You gotta work on yourself, put your own mask on. Wait, what?

Megan Gill: Yeah! Yeah, you put your own mask on first.

Amy Geist: You put your own mask on before you save the kid. Put your own mask on before you save the kid. You know?

Megan Gill: Right.

Amy Geist: Because you can’t save everybody at the same time.

Megan Gill: Totally. So true.

Amy Geist: But yeah, so I think that’s a really important place to start. And I think I try to sort of just offer a different perspective, really, because I know from my own experience and I know just from cognitive bias and the way that our brains work, coming in and being like, “Actually, you’re wrong for the following reasons,” is like, not gonna – nobody wants to listen to that.

Megan Gill: Right.

Amy Geist: So just when I hear people using language or talking about their bodies in a certain way or being really hateful towards themselves, I usually just try to offer a, “Well, the size of your body does not have any moral standing on who you are as a person,” and just offering a, “That actually doesn’t have to be that,” and, and sometimes it’s taken and sometimes it’s not. And that’s kind of the most that I try to do just because it’s like are you gonna change somebody’s wiring of their brain in three seconds? No, but it could be a thought that is a seed that is planted, that they’re like, “Oh, what if this was something that I – what if I thought about myself in a different way? Or just maybe something that pops up, you know?

Megan Gill: That’s really beautifully put and a very similar experience to what I have in those scenarios as well. And I do have to believe that you never know what the planting of the seed could do, but that we do have to approach it from a place of compassion and from a place of, “I care about you and I’m not pushing my shit on you.” I feel I always talk about this, but my friends at this point obviously know that I’m the body image girl, so don’t talk shit about yourself, because I will chime in, you know? My close friends at least. And it’s like I kind of like it because it allows me to like – I don’t know. It’s like once you see it, you can’t unsee it, right?

So I’m sure you probably feel similarly where when someone is talking poorly about their body or something is said in terms of, I don’t know, how our body shouldn’t be changing or aging isn’t cool or whatever, it’s like I can’t not hear that. I’m gonna hear it every single time, which I do appreciate and I think it has opened my eyes up. Just having that general awareness has been a really interesting thing. But then to be able to exercise the ability to come in and, if I’m going to offer something, do it from a place of neutralized compassion.

Amy Geist: Yeah, I mean that’s so important, right? And I think that that’s one of the ways that I can gauge in myself if I’m trying to talk about something that I’m not totally healed from. if I feel myself being very triggered and very defensive about something that someone is saying and then notice that me wanting to combat them is coming from a place of it’s about me, it’s my own stuff, then kind of points to, “Oh, maybe I need to do more work on this before I start trying to give advice to other people.”

Megan Gill: Yeah. Okay. I have a final question I wanna ask you, but before I do, is there anything else that you want to bring up or touch on that we haven’t yet?

Amy Geist: I guess the one thing I’ll say is we talk about a lot about the recovery process, and I do think us both being actors and I don’t know if there’s anyone else – I mean, I know there are so many other people that are actors that are probably struggling with this or have a very intimate relationship with this. And I think one of the most important things that I ever did for myself in healing from this eating disorder and also for my career was to take a break from acting.

I took a five year break because it was impossible for me to heal in an industry that is so triggering kind of what we’ve already said. So I stepped away for five years to just take care of myself and my relationship and figure out what it was like to be in my body with nobody looking, you know? And then that’s when we kind of reconnected, in LA, and I started going to acting class again and started, you know?

Megan Gill: Doing comedy!

Amy Geist: And started doing comedy, and I think back to it from that place of being – because there’s so much of the romanticized starving or tortured artist bullshit that you get as an actor as well. And I think that being on the other side of that and coming back to acting, I think I definitely A) could definitely never have done standup. I could never have done standup had I not done that. And then also have such a different relationship with acting and be able to hold it a little more softly and not have it define my self-worth. And it’s like, able to not be as triggered by it. And I think I never, again, would have tried comedy. I definitely would not be able to write about all the things that I can write about. I use a lot of my experience with my body and aging in my standup because I think there’s a lot of humor there of just – and I think that it’s something that’s so universal and then like, that’s what I want to use a platform for is to talk about something that’s like, isn’t this crazy that we’re all dealing with this? Does anyone else have a mustache? You know, and I think that’s what’s really fun about comedy now for me is being able to use all of that shit that I was scared of before and find the humor in it.

Megan Gill: Oh my god. Yeah, that’s really powerful. And then just also brings me back to the modality with which you are sharing these certain pieces of yourself. You used the genre of horror to talk about this heavy topic of body dysmorphia, and then you’re using comedy to now talk about the very real things that it is to age and exist in a body and live in Los Angeles and be an actor and a comedian and all of these things that are just so real and relatable. And I think that the way that you are using your voice and sharing your story and your stories is really impactful.

Amy Geist: Well, thanks, man.

Megan Gill: Of course! Thank you!

Megan Gill: Okay, love that. And thank you. I had made notes about some of those things, so I’m really glad we circled back to that because –

Amy Geist: Yeah, there’s so much.

Megan Gill: Yes, yes. Literally. I’m wondering what your favorite thing or things about your body are, and they could be physical, non-physical, a combo of both. Totally up to you. What is your favorite thing or things about your body, Amy?

Amy Geist: Oh my gosh, this little giggle, this little giggle! What are my favorite thing or things about my body? I feel I should have thought about this. I think my favorite thing about my body is it holds me and allows me to access the world out of health and privilege. I don’t have a lot of restrictions in my body, so I think my favorite thing is I have a lot of respect and appreciation for what it allows me to do in the world. And I think if we’re talking from just an aesthetic perspective, I think my eyes are pretty cool.

Megan Gill: Yeah, they’re lovely.

Amy Geist: I think so. Thank you. I haven’t thought of – that’s such a good question because I feel that’s something I should ask myself more often. I think I’ve defaulted to being very neutral about my body and just being like, “Yep, there it is. That’s what it looks like.” So, to like, yeah, take a moment to say what you like I about it is a good idea.

Megan Gill: Yeah, and it can shift every day. It can shift morning and night. It’s so cool that it is another thing that can change and evolve, and how beautiful is that? And I think that the more that I’ve been exploring this question with others and with myself, the more I have been able to look at parts of myself that I’ve struggled with before and been able to see them through a different lens, which is very interesting in terms of speaking about seeing yourself very neutrally, through a neutral lens. It’s been a really interesting experience. That does not happen all the time, but when it does, it’s like, “What is going on? This is crazy!” Literally.

But thank you for your feedback on the question and thank you for sharing and thank you so much for having this conversation with me, Amy. I really, really enjoyed it, and I’m grateful to you.

Amy Geist: Oh my gosh. I’m grateful for you asking me. Thank you for having me. It was such a blast to dive deep and always a blast to see you and talk to you. So thank you.

Megan Gill: Same. Of course!

“When I really kinda started on this process, I was already a couple years into recovery of what I felt was an actual recovery. And so, I think I created a little bit of a buffer of distance with the experience, which I think made it easier for me to make a project about it because I think if I’d still been a little too close to it, it would not have been a healthy experience. So I had a bit of a distance from it, but I do think what was healing was actually talking to, you know, the crew that worked on it, people that saw it, people that read it, and hearing how it made a part of them feel seen and acknowledged, and people coming up and feeling safe to share their story with me and their experience, because they haven’t really felt they’ve seen something that really touched on what they went through in a real way. And so, I think that in itself was – I didn’t expect to happen, but was like, I do think healing and rewarding and a really beautiful experience every time somebody trusted me with that information.”

- Amy Geist

Hailing from Ohio, Amy Geist is a Producer, Director, Writer, and Founder of Beloved Root Films. She started in Los Angeles as a commercial Producer and Production Manager.Her feature film work includes Blade Runner 2049 (Alcon Entertainment *Academy Award Winning), Little (Universal), Trees of Peace (Netflix), Bar Fight (IFC Films), #FBF (Mar Vista Entertainment), and Trap House (Signature Entertainment).She produced Fuse, a series of five short films, for Powderkeg Media: launched by Paul Feig and Laura Fischer. The films went on to premiere at Sundance and Tribeca.Her film Dysmorphia premiered at Hollywood ShortsFest where it won the Grand Jury Award. Dysmorphia went on to screen at other well-known festivals such Hollyshorts and during it’s festival run won Best Cinematography and Best Horror Film. You can watch it on Alter for free. During the 2023 strike she started performing stand-up. Since then she has toured in Colorado, headlined at the Moab Women’s Festival, and won won Best in Fest at the Burbank Comedy Festival. You can see her on stage at the Hollywood Improv Lab, The Crow, Flappers, or The Kookaburra Lounge. She most recently produced a stand-up comedy fundraiser: BeCause We Can Comedy and all proceeds went to help a family in Gaza.

More About Amy Here!

IG: @thatamygeist

Watch Dysmorphia

Watch Support

Watch Fractal

Watch T.G.I.F. Y2K

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A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:

* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.

* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.

* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.

Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!

While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers.

Everyone please welcome my sweet friend Destiny Allen to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Destiny and I have known each other for a few years now (spoiler alert: she’s dating two of my besties), and being an expert in the field of bridal fashion, I was so excited she agreed to have a conversation with me.

Destiny is making waves in the way she shows up as a bridal consultant. She works at LOHO, which literally stands for League Of Her Own, and she also has big plans of opening her own shop one day that caters to all types of people who are getting married. (Bridal suits? Yes, please!). I know that what Destiny creates is going to be much needed in our world, and I can’t wait to see the incredible lives she continues to impact!

In our conversation, we discuss…

* How empowering brides despite their preconceived notions about their bodies helps Destiny to connect to her own body image in a helpful way

* Shutting down body shaming in bridal appointments

* Your wedding dress needs to fit you - not the other way around

* Her goals of opening her own shop that provides bridal suits to the queer community

* Wearing clothes that reflect our personal style

* The origins of Destiny’s body image story and dealing with body image bullies

* Reminding yourself how incredible your body is, first and foremost

* Finding the hope in the intersection of young people, body image, and social media

I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation!

“ I think that’s the beauty of fashion and why I fell in love with it too is because find pieces that make me feel confident, and I’ve stopped trying to fit into this box of what people think I should be wearing. I’ve moved past that, and now I’ve truly found myself. I’m also like, “Oh, if I don’t feel good wearing dresses and skirts, I don’t have to wear them.” I can wear what I want. That makes me feel the best in my body.”

- Destiny Allen

Megan Gill: Hi Destiny!

Destiny Allen: Hi!

Megan Gill: I’m so excited that you are here having this conversation with me today. Thank you for joining me!

Destiny Allen: Yes, of course. I’m excited!

Megan Gill: So do you wanna start by just introducing yourself, who you are, and a little bit about the work that you do in the world?

Destiny Allen: Yeah, so my name is Destiny. I’m a bridal stylist, so I’ve been styling brides for about nine years now. So it’s been a minute since I’ve been in that area. And by styling, I mean finding dresses for the brides, because I feel people hear styling and they think I do hair and makeup, and I’m like, absolutely not. So just the actual fashion of it. So that’s kind of what I do.

Megan Gill: Very cool. And also I can only imagine how that ties into what we’re here to talk about today, which is the overarching theme of body image, because I have never been married myself, but I have ideas in my head and have experienced being around my friends on their wedding day, and your dress is a big, important piece of the puzzle of feeling really good about yourself and being in your body on this big, exciting day where you are on display in front of so many people, friends and family, and you really just wanna be able to, I can imagine, feel your best so that you can not be in your head and just be really present and enjoy your special day with your people and the person that you are getting married to.

Destiny Allen: Yeah, definitely. So I feel like there’s a lot of pressure around having to change your body for your wedding day. There’s so much stress behind it. Every bride is like, “Oh, but I’m gonna lose 10+ pounds and I’m gonna be this and this,” and I’m like, “You do not have to do that.”

I think my biggest thing in bridal when I hear someone say, “Oh, this would look good if I lost this much weight,” I tell them that that is not their dress because they need to feel beautiful in the dress the way they are at this moment. So I think that’s huge. I don’t wanna hear anyone say, “When I change my body, then it’ll look good.” Then it’s not the one.

Megan Gill: Oh my gosh. I love that.

Destiny Allen: There’s a lot of pressure with moms. That’s a big thing, the family dynamics. A lot of moms put the pressure for people to lose weight, which is crazy to hear because my mom is the most supportive person. So it’s so bizarre to hear a mom say, “Oh, when she loses weight, it’ll look better.” It’s a crazy thing. It’s mind blowing. So, yeah, I feel I’m also a little bit of a therapist as well, because I wanna make sure the energy’s good. So I feel there’s a role where I have to protect my bride at the same time as styling them.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Yeah. Which is, I think, what sets somebody like you apart from just maybe the average stylist and having that awareness going into – is it called a bridal session or the bridal appointment where they’re trying on the dresses? It’s an appointment?

Destiny Allen: Yes.

Megan Gill: Okay. Can you tell I’ve never been down this road before?

Destiny Allen: That’s okay. That’s okay!

Megan Gill: But I would want to have somebody like you working with me, but I can only imagine, especially in Los Angeles, the amount of mother-daughter dynamics that come through. And I just wanna point out that it’s really amazing that you are showing up the way you are and that that is so top of mind for you. I know when I approached you about having this conversation, that was something that you shared with me, and it’s just so important because you’re helping to break those generational cycles. Even if a mom wants to say that, you chiming in or offering your perspective on it to the bride or whatever it may be, could really change the trajectory of someone’s thought process about their daughter’s body or about their own body, honestly. Because right, it’s this concept of I need to, whether it’s lose 10 pounds or do X or do Y to be happy, at least I believe is never going to give us true happiness, right? We have to accept where we are and work to find the joy in where we are right now.

Destiny Allen: Yes, very much so. I think I love just being that voice for these brides because none of their friends or family are saying that to them. They’re just kind of being like, “Oh, yeah wear undergarments,” or, “When you do lose 10 pounds…” you know? It’s such a fucked up thing. And I’m like, “No, no, no, no. You are perfect the way you are right now, and you have to feel confident in what you’re wearing. So this is not your dress. We’re gonna move on and find the one that makes you feel that way.”

But yeah, I don’t know. I’ve been in bridal for so long, and I think so many people have said negative things about me and my body that I think it’s so inspiring for me to flip that and be the person that is empowering for people to feel beautiful in their own skin because I’ve had so many people try to put me down. I wanna do the opposite for brides and just women in general.

Megan Gill: Yeah, which is incredible and I feel that’s one of the many ways that we can take the adversities we face or, you know, the tough situations with whoever’s telling us these things, because I’ve been there too, and flip it around to change the narrative and to help other people see that there is a different way to view these things.

Destiny Allen: Yeah, absolutely.

Megan Gill: Yeah, and also just thinking about the piece of you guiding the brides who are feeling like, “Oh, well this dress would be perfect if I lost 10 pounds,” or whatever it may be, guiding them to understand that, no, then that dress isn’t for you because it doesn’t fit you in a way that makes you feel good, and then finding the dress that does fit you well as you are today is such an important concept for women dressing themselves say-to-day as well. I think that is something that I think a lot of women get hung up on, myself included. The understanding that the clothes are supposed to fit us. We are not supposed to fit this garment that we think we need to fit into for XYZ reason.

Destiny Allen: Yeah, exactly. I think that’s the beauty of fashion and why I fell in love with it too, is because I find pieces that make me feel confident, and I’ve stopped trying to fit into this box of what people think I should be wearing. I’ve moved past that and now I’ve truly found myself. I’m also like, oh, if I don’t feel good wearing dresses and skirts, I don’t have to wear them. I can wear what I want that makes me feel the best in my body. So that’s why I do bridal. And sometimes I have days where I’m like, “Why do I do this?” Because you get so many different energies in the store, and sometimes it’s crazy. But I get the brides where I’m like, “This is why I do this.”

Because, you know, I think my favorite thing is when a bride comes in super insecure, super nervous, super shy, and then by the end of the appointment, she’s crying because of how beautiful she feels. And she’s thanking me for the experience and I’m like, okay, this is why I do it. Because she came in so nervous about who she is and dresses and not being able to find something that she likes because of body issues, and then I’m able to help her – it’s a journey – flip it. So I think that’s why I love it so much. I mean, like I said, I have moments, but it’s really just to get women to feel beautiful within their own skin.

Megan Gill: Which is really transformational because then hopefully that woman that you impacted in that way is able to then walk into dressing rooms on her own and maybe feel a little bit more confident or have more of an understanding of the types of garments to look for that she’s attracted to, that she wants to wear, that are calling to her.

Destiny Allen: Yeah, I mean, we all have our things about our bodies, and I think that’s very normal. I always have thoughts back, because I think my body issue started back in middle school. I think if somebody didn’t say anything to me about my body, I wouldn’t have insecurities. It’s so crazy to see it. People would come up to me and be like, “Are you anorexic? You look like you’re anorexic. You look sick. You’re too skinny. Eat a burger,” you know? All of the things that I feel people don’t think about with thin people has happened to me.

Even in the bridal space, back in Maryland, I had a curve bride look at me and she didn’t even wanna work with me. I didn’t even get to say hi to her yet.

Megan Gill: Whoa.

Destiny Allen: And that sticks with me. Isn’t that crazy how somebody so insecure comes in of her insecurities, she looks at my body and doesn’t wanna work with me, without me even being able to say hi to her. I think that type of story makes me feel stronger to be able to like, I don’t know – little nabs, jabs that, I’m like, wow, that’s crazy to think that you looked at me for one second and said, “No, I won’t work with her,” because of my body type. Isn’t that crazy?

Megan Gill: It’s wild.

Destiny Allen: That’s the thing too. I’m like, I could have given her the best experience and I could have been her bestie by the end, but she didn’t even gimme a chance because of the way my body is.

Megan Gill: Right, which is so wildly unfair to you.

Destiny Allen: Yeah.

Megan Gill: And it’s unfortunate because I think it does stem so much from just, like you said, societal conditioning. Where did those people that were approaching you and making comments about your body out of left field, where did they learn it from? Unfortunately, just the way that our culture is as a whole. And also I think it’s important to point out, on your end, as being someone in a thinner body that it’s happening both ways too. Because I think a lot of times we’re just a little bit more aware of, of course, people in bigger bodies have a hard time dealing with people commenting on their bodies. I think that’s just something that culturally, as a whole, we have a general awareness of.

Destiny Allen: Yeah.

Megan Gill: But it’s like, it can go either way. And I’m not trying to categorize thin bodies and plus size bodies.

Destiny Allen: Right.

Megan Gill: No matter what your body is, you probably deal with something of the sort.

Destiny Allen: Yeah.

Megan Gill: Which is also really sad that we’re all struggling in these ways and yet we’re still attacking each other or still placing judgment on somebody without even trying to understand their story or who they are or what they’re about, or how they approach their work.

Destiny Allen: Right. Yeah, it’s such a crazy thing. We were just born this. This is just our bodies. We should be so grateful that we have legs and arms. It’s so crazy to judge someone by the way their body looks. I’m like, well, we’re healthy. That should be something to appreciate.

But yeah, no, I feel I’ve been so even shut down if I try to – I just even remember talking to friends in high school and just being shut down because of my struggles because it’s so opposite than other people’s struggles and they belittled me in that way, by me being like, “You know, I really struggle with being so skinny. I wanna gain weight.” It ends up being a joke to a lot of people. So, you know, you kind of stop talking about it because people think it’s funny because that’s — you know, I guess the American dream is to be thin or whatever, but I’m like, “No, you guys, I struggle so immensely with my body as well.” That’s a huge thing.

It’s so interesting that, on the other spectrum of things, people just shut it down because they think it’s not their issue, so they don’t understand it.

Megan Gill: Right, there’s no empathetic thread there to have an understanding because, at least I believe, our society has ingrained this ideal into us through the beauty industry and through beauty standards and diet culture and all of the things. This piece has come up in recent conversation, and I think it’s such an important thing to touch on and to talk about, and I’m really glad that you’re sharing about it today because it breaks my heart, and it’s so unfair for you to be dismissed like that. It’s like, no. That’s part of the reason why I want to do this project and talk to just a bunch of different people about their body image story, because we all have one, and I think that a lot of peoples’ get dismissed or get disregarded because of the way society categorizes what their body looks like, which is just incredibly unfair.

Destiny Allen: It really is. Yeah, it’s tricky, and I think at this point in time, I have grown so much from all of the people that have commented on my body, and I think it was way worse in Maryland, where I’m from. For some reason it was constant, even just when I was just working my job, I would have moms being like, “Oh, I need to feed you.” It would be constantly someone once a day at least saying something.

Megan Gill: Oh, my god.

Destiny Allen: It’s miraculous that I even stayed in the industry because it was kind of like, “Oh, I’m here to empower women, but they’re bashing me down.” So it’s such an interesting thing, but I think that’s what makes me so much stronger is I made it through all of that, and I’m still working on loving myself. I think everyone is. I think that’s something that’ll forever be worked on, but I really do love who I am, and I am appreciating and loving my body now way more than I ever have. So it’s nice that I’m still in the industry and have made it through.

13:10

Megan Gill: Yeah, I 100% agree because it might be easier to just take the easy way out sometimes, right? And not face these things day to day. At work specifically, hearing comments about your body all the time at work in an industry where you are helping other women. It’s not about what you look like, it’s about what the women – you know, it’s not even about what they – well, I guess it is about what they look like, unfortunately. because that’s just what it is when you’re looking to find your wedding day attire, also about what you feel like, but it’s just so, so wild. And I can relate to that in a sense, but it’s kind of different, I feel like, because my body is on display a lot of times in my work. But I do feel you on the fact that, at this point in my life, I have learned to just have an understanding and have empathy for the people that are saying these things. Granted, it’s a little bit more understood in my industry because if I’m fit modeling in front of people, it’s like, well, you don’t have the right necessarily to comment on my body in certain ways. It’s a very nuanced, fine line, but it’s, yeah, just wild to hear that you were faced with so much of that. And you’re like, whoa, whoa. This is not about me. What’s going on here?

Destiny Allen: Yeah. And you know, I can always understand, everyone would be like, oh, well that’s their insecurities. That’s why they’re talking about your body. I’m like, yeah, I understand that, but it doesn’t take away the pain when somebody’s commenting on your body. I can understand that they have something they’re not happy with in their life, but it still stings a little.

And you know, I think ever since, I said, middle school like, and then in high school for me, Snapchat was becoming a thing, and I had a girl – I would play with the guys at lunch, basketball and stuff. And I had a girl circle my body post it and say, “Oh my god, why is she so skinny?” And posted it everywhere, and I am not a quiet person when it comes to that. So I, of course, I didn’t even know her. I had to add her on, gosh, Instagram and message her and be like, “What the fuck is that?” Like, I kind of confronted her, of course, and she just kind of was like, “Oh, that wasn’t meant in a mean way. I meant that in a nice way.” And I was like, “No, it’s just because you’re being confronted right now. Let’s be honest here.” I was like, “Take that shit down and fuck off.” You know? It infuriaterates me, because also how embarrassing to have your body circled and posted all over and then have multiple people send it to you and be like, “Just to let you know this is happening.” It traumatized me.

Megan Gill: I can imagine, especially as a young, young person, I don’t wanna say kid, you’re in high school, but still it’s like our brains aren’t fully developed yet. We’re figuring out who we are, we’re figuring out how to exist in this odd, bizarre social climate that we’re just stuck in for four years plus, whatever. Oh my god. I’m so sorry that that happened, and I’m so glad – I mean, it sucks because you shouldn’t have to take on the emotional labor of having to confront this person, this kid, for doing this. But I’m glad that you did. Ugh.

Destiny Allen: I think that’s something that I’ve never been scared of is speaking up for myself, but it doesn’t take away the fact that it tore me down, but it’s such a crazy time too. I worry so much about the kids growing up now. because the fact that social media was just like – Instagram was brand, brand new in high school. Now the social media is crazy. So I feel so for the kids that have to grow up with social media as the main, gosh, it feels a life source for these people.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Oh, for sure. And especially because not only is there content that we’re viewing on social media, right, but the fact that social media was used in the sense of the story that you just told, it was used to bring some somebody down, to make somebody feel they should not be existing in the body that they just have just because they have it. Genetics, I don’t know, so many factors make our bodies the way that they are.

Yeah, it’s crazy. And you know, that affected – I stopped playing basketball at lunchtime. I stopped because I didn’t want to be stared at, circled, and posted. So I just like, I mean, I just stopped playing and that sucks because that was something I really enjoyed. So interesting that it has that much of an effect on people.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Oh. For sure, and it makes a lot of sense too. And there are things in my story that I can trace back to, as well, as far as not fully expressing who I was or who I wanted to be, or wearing the things that I wanted to wear because of the comments people were saying about me. And I don’t think people realize, especially kids, I don’t think they understand how much of an impact the things they do or say has sometimes, and I am hopeful that – I mean, it’s two-sided, right? This whole social media climate that is now our norm down to kids that are, what, five, six years old with cell phones? Wild. I don’t know. But even middle school, high school, whatever it is I think that it’s cool on one hand because there is so much good content out there, right? And some of these kids could, or young people, could see the good side of the internet and the good side of social media and the people that are out there being body positive or body neutral, or talking about eating disorders. I didn’t even understand what an eating disorder was truly until I was older. The educational piece of social media is so lovely, but then at the same time, it’s so scary, like you were saying. I worry too about the young people too because it’s like, god, there’s so much opportunity there for, for negative impact.

Destiny Allen: Yeah. There’s just so much pressure to look good on your Instagram, and I think that’s taking away from being present, but it also puts the pressure on these young kids to be somebody and edit and make sure that they look good for, I don’t know, the kids that they’re surrounded by. It’s just sad.

Megan Gill: I agree.

Destiny Allen: Middle school is the worst year of everyone’s life. I feel everyone’s growing into puberty, but they’re also being so hateful and horrible to each other. And then we all have this trauma that sticks with us from these years.

Megan Gill: It’s so true.

Destiny Allen: It always has to do with our bodies. That’s why I love – I’m so proud of you for doing this platform because this is. This is good for the kids that are struggling, if they stumble upon your podcast, to be able to listen to this and feel like, “Okay, yes, I have a beautiful body and I need to love myself.” It’s a hard thing to do, but these are the types of things that are tools for us to feel good.

Megan Gill: Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that. That is part of the impetus of doing this. And I think it’s tough sometimes because when we’re younger, we don’t really understand it. Or at least I didn’t understand it or understand radical acceptance of this is the one beautiful body I get no matter what happens to it, she’s the only one I got, and it’s so much more peaceful to pour love into her than to talk shit to her. And I think that part of the puzzle is maybe more difficult for young people to understand, but young people are also fucking smart. So who am I to say that the more we get different people’s take on body image out there, or people in different sized bodies talking about body neutrality or how they’ve worked really hard to come to a place of acceptance and ultimately, whether it’s neutrality or love or whatever, your relationship to your body is this healthy place in terms of how they view their bodies and how they exist in their bodies and how they treat them. Yeah, I think that we could start to get these kids on track sooner. It took me so long to even kind of recognize what the hell was going on, right?

Destiny Allen: Right.

Megan Gill: But also, I did grow up in the age of social media, so MySpace was big in middle school. Facebook was big halfway through my high school career. And then it was still like, you know, up and coming when I was in college. So that’s interesting too because I’m like, well maybe there just wasn’t enough education around me or around like, you know, my generation and then your generation and now it’s just an inundation of TikTok, Instagram education everywhere. Oh gosh. I don’t know. It is terrifying. But ultimately I have to try to see the good in it and just hope and believe that, I mean, not just me, obviously. It would be incredible to have an impact on as many people as we possibly can here with this project, but I just know that a bunch of influencers are out there also.

Destiny Allen: Maybe that is – yeah. I mean, see both ways, but I think naturally it took me forever too to realize, “Oh, I just need to lift myself. I gotta stop putting myself down.” It puts you in a depression hole, you’re just bashing yourself constantly and that’s not good for your body. You’re not feeding it at all. It’s quite the opposite.

So though I still have my insecurities, I love her so much more now. Okay, this is my body. She does amazing things. I am okay. I need to just sit with that. It takes a lot of work though. That needs to be talked about, how much work it is to shift the mind to go from negative to positive. It’s hard. But it’s possible. And I think that – yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know what my tools would be to get there, because I think bridal really helped me in some ways, being surrounded by women talking about their bodies every day. I think me feeding other brides and making them feel good in their own bodies somehow shifted me to make me feel good in my body. Oh, you’re so cute.

Megan Gill: That’s extremely impactful. Truly, it’s almost like – because I have an understanding of what you mean. When you’re put face to face with it and you’re forced to challenge the way you are thinking and then also challenge the way that people around you are thinking, you’re forced to see another way.

Destiny Allen: Yeah, I’m like I can’t feed these brides this advice and not follow it myself, because then it wouldn’t be genuine. I think it flipped a switch in me and I think I’ve been feeling it way more lately in what I’m saying.

Megan Gill: It’s so cool because I also don’t think that we talk enough about, obviously, all the different jobs that are out there and all the various ways that different career paths can have such an impact. And I obviously knew I was having this conversation with you, but talking about this more in depth is just so beautiful and lovely. Because a lot of people that come into contact with you probably don’t even know the ways that they’re being impacted, maybe they do, or maybe they’re just not expecting it, but it’s like, oh god, that’s so, so important, and I’m so glad that you’ve just flipped the script for yourself, put in the work to flip it for yourself so that you can show up for the people that you’re supporting in this way.

Destiny Allen: Yeah. It’s such a beautiful thing and sometimes they know, because I’ll cry with them, sometimes. It’s rare because I’ve been in bridal for so long, so I see tears a lot. But sometimes it’ll send goosebumps up my body and I’ll just tear up with them. It’s also rare for brides to cry nowadays, but a lot of times they, a lot of times they don’t, but sometimes they do. And it’s very powerful when they do because the entire group will cry with them.

Megan Gill: Oh my god.

Destiny Allen: And me too. Sometimes I will cry with them, and it means a lot when it does happen. If you see any tears coming from your eyes, it touched me in a different way, which I love. And I love when I get a queer bride because I never get queer brides. And I think that’s what’s so special about the work I do at LOHO, because LOHO stands for a League Of Her Own. I resonate with that because I’m very edgy and covered in tattoos and I’m in a throuple and I’m different. And I love when I get a queer bride that comes in. because I’m like, “I’m gay too!”

Megan Gill: Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Destiny Allen: “I can relate to you!” Let’s start out with that because then it makes them feel comfortable immediately. And instead of feeling shy and being like, “Oh my fiance, she,” and I’m like, “Me too!”

Megan Gill: “I get it!” Yeah. Yeah. Oh, oh my gosh.

Destiny Allen: I know, you know, if I get engaged I’m probably going to be nervous to go shopping at different places because there’s still a tradition behind it, unfortunately.

Megan Gill: And I can imagine being faced with that initial judgment because you also just don’t know who you’re dealing with anywhere, really, right? So what a lovely surprise for the queer brides to walk in and for you to be the one helping them find what they’re gonna wear on their special day.

Destiny Allen: Yeah, it’s the best.

Megan Gill: It’s incredible.

Destiny Allen: Those are the ones that really stick with me because I don’t get a lot of them at all. It’s gotta be one out of a hundred. I don’t get a lot.

Megan Gill: Really? Oh my gosh!

Destiny Allen: I don’t think queer people get married often. I think there’s just, there’s so much more behind that. But it just warms my heart when I get two fiances in my shop that are shopping together, and are the ones that pull tears outta my eyes for sure.

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Destiny Allen: Yeah. But that’s also my goal in bridal is to have my own shop and have more of a comfortable space for queer people as well. I wanna have a section for bridal suits.

Megan Gill: Yes!

Destiny Allen: And I want to have a section for the edgier brides. And of course I’ll probably have some classic looks too, because I wanna make sure I have a good mix of everything. But I think we need a spot for bridal suits, and I think that is my overall goal is to provide that and just a space to feel people can be themselves. That’s huge.

Megan Gill: Insanely huge for them to show up and know that they are going to be met with kindness and respect, right? These baseline things that you would hope would be offered everywhere, but I am not sure are. Oh my god. I think that that is so needed and so important and exactly where I can see you heading, and I’m so excited for you and so excited for all of the people that one day you are going to be able to show up for.

I was also thinking, as we started this conversation I was like, oh, their wedding dress. And it’s not always necessarily a wedding dress that people are choosing to wear on their wedding day.

Destiny Allen: Yeah.

Megan Gill: It’s also exciting that we’re – you know, whether you’re queer or not, no generalizations – moving away from maybe a more traditional garment, that people are being able to express themselves.

Destiny Allen: Exactly. And my doors are gonna be open for all people, non-binary, gay, queer, lesbian, everybody, straight people, of course, are welcome into my shop. I feel I’m a person that is – you know, I’m a very genuine, down to earth person, but on the outside I’m covered in tattoos. I have an edge to me. So sometimes I feel like I don’t have a place, you know, in certain environments that I’m not receiving judgment. So I wanna make sure that I’m that place for brides, grooms, whatever, to just feel good and they’re not scared to come into my shop. That’s a very normal thing for brides to feel very scared and nervous to come shopping. So I think I just, yeah, I don’t know. I wanna bring that warmth. It’s gonna take a while, but I’ll get there one day.

Megan Gill: You will absolutely get there. And even just thinking of how you were mentioning that you present more of an edgy appearance to people who maybe don’t know you, and when people think about, you know, brides, they think white, lacy, floral, very, for lack of a better term, feminine, very girly, feminine vibes. And how maybe there are some brides out there that want an edgier look or an edgier dress or an edgy pants suit. And why is that not more widely normalized, you know?

Destiny Allen: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that’s why I appreciate LOHO so much. Christy brings in the fashion and the edge. Such an inspiration because this is the only shop that I’ve worked at that I felt I could feel myself. I’ve been in bridal for so long and, you know, I’ve bounced around different shops, and a lot of the other shops are very traditional and girly, and I’ve felt the pressure to wear dresses skirts. I love that the owner is just like, wear what makes you feel comfortable and who you are. She’s not pressuring me to wear a dress.

For example, my last shop, I think I had an event to go to for the bridal shop, and I was like, “Oh, I need to find something to wear. I don’t feel comfortable wearing a dress. I think I’ll have to look for a pants suit.” And the owner of the shop was like, “It wouldn’t kill you to wear a dress. You work in bridal.” And I was all, “Excuse me?” I was so thrown off. I didn’t even go to the event. I was like, you won’t have my support at this event because you’re not supporting me and who I am.

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Destiny Allen: And I think that’s what I was looking for when I found LOHO. I was like, oh, thank god.

Megan Gill: Thank god.

Destiny Allen: I can wear a suit and tie to work. I feel like, you know, I can kind of pull in my masculine energy too, and she appreciates that and thinks it’s cool that I’m bringing in my own fashion, which I’m like, okay. This is where I’m meant to be.

Megan Gill: Yeah, I fucking love that. I think it’s super important because, hello, fashion, expression, it’s so individualized and it’s so up to each individual person how they want to express themselves and the clothes that they want to wear and feel good in. And it’s so counterintuitive to think that working in this industry that preaches that, but to then be like, “Oh, well you need to wear a dress,” if that’s not something that you vibe with, it’s just not, not it. That’s not the vibe. What are we doing here?

Destiny Allen: No. A lot of judgment coming from all sides too because I would keep getting tattoos and she’d be like, “Oh, another one?” I’m like, yeah, I’m gonna keep covering myself too. It’s gonna keep going this is just it, girl. I’m gonna be covered in tattoos. It’s just not the typical stylist look because I think it throws a lot of people off. That’s kind of why I love doing this too. because I’m not, I am not the typical bridal stylist that’s all proper and a little dress. I am a little different and I appreciate that.

Megan Gill: I love that. Okay, well one day, one day when I am engaged…

Destiny Allen: You will come to me and I will be there for you.

Megan Gill: Exactly. Maybe by that point you’ll have your own shop!

Destiny Allen: I will!

Megan Gill: I can’t wait because I’m like, yeah, I can imagine the nerves. I would feel I would wanna trust the person that’s helping me to find this, A of all, very expensive, B of all, very important, C of all, garment that I’m going to be wearing on one of the most important days of my life. I feel there has to be a lot of trust there, and especially in a city Los Angeles, I know I would be extra on my guard. And looking for someone that, you know, someone who is someone who is kind and open to hearing me out and isn’t just gonna push certain things on me.

Destiny Allen: Right, yeah.

Megan Gill: Or isn’t gonna push a weird body image narrative on me, because I’m also curious to know how many women that have shopped around for dresses have experienced that. I don’t know if that’s a thing. I don’t know if it’s happening, but I would imagine that it possibly is.

Destiny Allen: I think it is. Yeah, I hear it a lot. And it’s crazy. People will come to me and just be like, “Oh my gosh, you were amazing thank you.” And I’m like, I feel I am just doing what I’m supposed to do. It feels crazy that their experience at other shops were so horrible, because this is a special moment for brides. They’re finding their wedding dress. I think the person helping you should be just as excited. It’s so bizarre when I hear horror stories coming from other places. because I’m like, “Really? I’m so sorry. That is awful.” But that’s what I’m here for. And I’m here to pull dresses in for brides because. Most of the time, this isn’t something they try on every day to know what fits right. So I’m here to pull in the wild cards and I love finding that wild card that the bride is like, “Oh my gosh, I had no idea that this is the direction I would go in!” It’s crazy.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Oh, this is also another interesting thing. I am thinking this whole concept of flattery, right? And certain body types that think certain silhouettes are more flattering or less flattering. Are there ever times where you maybe present a bride with a silhouette that she didn’t think she would feel good in and it ends up being the one?

Destiny Allen: All the time. I think that’s something that brings me so much joy too, because they’re able to pick five gallons to try on before they come in, off the website. Most of the time it’s not gonna be in those five that are the one because they don’t know. They don’t know. They haven’t tried on wedding dresses, like I said, so they don’t know the different shapes and details and all the things.

So my favorite thing is when I pull in the dress. I always say, they whisper to me the dresses. I’m always like, they whisper at me. I’m like, they pull me in and when I pull it in and they try it on, it’s so fun to see them light up, compared to all the other dresses they’ve tried, there’s just a different glow that brides have when they put on their dress. It’s incredible.

Megan Gill: Another round of chills coming right up.

Destiny Allen: I’m always like, it’s like dating people because there’s so many beautiful people in the world, but it needs to feel right. It’s based on a feeling that you have in the dress, and that is about your confidence. And just see when you envision your wedding day, can you envision yourself in this gown? And it just brings all kinds of emotions with it.

Megan Gill: Ooh, I think that’s huge. The fact that you are saying it’s about how you feel and it’s a feeling. Because I think so much of body image and clothes – I talk about this with one of my girlfriends all the time about how I’m just trying to wear clothes that I feel good in. Yeah, sure, I wanna like what I see when I look in the mirror, but do I feel good in it? Like with a wedding dress, I would wanna feel good, so good in that dress that I could move around in it, I could dance around in it, I could do all of the things that I wanna do on my wedding day comfortably.

Destiny Allen: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Megan Gill: And not kill myself over it, right?

Destiny Allen: Yeah. Yeah, it’s beyond, and I think that’s the hard part. Social media brings in a whole nother thing with bridal shopping because you get lost in all of the TikToks of the brides posting all the dresses they didn’t choose. So they feel they need to hit a hundred shops.

It’s not a logical decision. It’s not based on logic. So I think I have to kind of guide brides through that to be like, “Hey, I’ve noticed in this dress that you’re pointing out the straps, the waistline, the fabric, but in this dress, you didn’t point out anything, you just said, I love it. It was just based on a feeling. You’re not picking pieces apart on it. You’re like, I love this dress. And it was an immediate reaction.”

So I think it’s nice for me to be able to watch body language. That’s kind of what I’m also there for is to watch their body language and then tell them how they’re feeling because sometimes they can’t do it for themselves. It’s very hard. I have to be like, “This is actually what you’re feeling and thinking, and I need to point that out to you,” because it’s also what I’m, what I’m here for.

Megan Gill: That’s so cool. It makes so much sense, you are the reflector for them because also it’s so hard making these big decisions on our own. Seems so difficult and sometimes overwhelming. So to have a trusted source there that intuitively has worked with so many women now at this point, and just you understand these little pieces of what goes on and how it goes, that is so beautiful and so cool.

Destiny Allen: It’s so fun. It’s such a game to me, it’s a psychological game where you have to figure out what will make them feel the most beautiful, and yeah, it’s a different journey each appointment, which I love having. You just don’t know what you’re walking into. It’s so much fun not knowing and not having the same thing over and over and over. It’s very different.

Megan Gill: Yeah. That’s so cool. And I’m just thinking how many different lives you get to impact too. Oh, they’re so lucky to have you! I feel we talked about an array of incredible things. But my last question for you is I’m wondering what your favorite thing or things about your body are. They can be physical; they can be non-physical. It can be a combination of both. Just kind of whatever comes top of mind for you.

Destiny Allen: Oh my gosh, that’s such a cute question. Okay. Well, I love – I feel this is gonna sound a little silly, but I love my arm of tattoos.

Megan Gill: Not silly.

Destiny Allen: I only have one of them right now. My other one will be filled eventually. But I love showing off my sleeve of tattoos. It is probably my favorite thing. Yeah, I feel that’s probably my absolute fave. I think that was my automatic response. I got this beautiful artwork on me, and I love to show it off, and it also helps me not feel so insecure about how thin I am, naturally thin. But also I forget about my insecurities when I am covered in tattoos, which is kind of amazing. So that’s probably one of my coping mechanisms is tattoos.

Megan Gill: Because you’re able to add art and make something that people maybe tried to convince you was not good or worthy or beautiful, so sadly, and you get to make it you and a reflection of your expression too.

Destiny Allen: Yeah, I like that. Definitely. I think it’s funny because our bodies are already art pieces, but I like to add more art onto my art piece.

Megan Gill: I love that. I love that! Yeah. And just the expression piece of it too, the extra creative piece of it, I think is so lovely.

Destiny Allen: Yeah. I love that.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Well, thanks Destiny. Thanks for having this conversation with me. It was really lovely!

Destiny Allen: Thank you!

Megan Gill: Of course!

“ I think naturally it took me forever too to like realize, “Oh, I need to lift myself. I gotta stop putting myself down.” It puts you in a depression hole, like you’re just bashing yourself constantly, and that’s not good for your body. You’re not feeding it at all. It’s quite the opposite. So I still have my insecurities. I love her so much more now. “Okay, this is my body. She does amazing things. I am okay. I need to just sit with that.” It’s a lot of work though that needs to be talked about, how much work it is to shift the mind to go from negative to positive. It’s hard, but it’s possible. I think bridal really helped me in some ways, surrounded by women talking about their bodies every day. I think me feeding other brides and making them feel good in their own bodies somehow shifted me to make me feel good in my body.”

- Destiny Allen

With nearly a decade of experience as a bridal stylist, I’ve dedicated my career to helping brides feel beautiful, confident, and completely themselves. As an edgier queer person, I want to be that safe place for brides that don’t feel seen. At LOHO Bride—an unconventional haven for the non-traditional bride—I bring my love of fashion and my deep belief in body positivity to every appointment. I’m passionate about creating a space where every bride feels comfortable in her own skin and celebrated for who she is.

If anyone would like to schedule an appointment with me, they can reach me at [email protected] or they can schedule on the website and request me: Lohobride.com.

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A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:

* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.

* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.

* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.

Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!

While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers.

Everyone please welcome Liz J to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Liz and I were a part of the same university program, so we’ve known each other for quite some time now. I was so excited to bring Liz in for a conversation about body image.

Liz pulled back the curtain on being raised in a musical theatre world and discussed how the beauty and body standards of Broadway impacted her as a teen and into adulthood. She talks about her relationship to dance, body modifications, and bodily agency. This was such an impactful conversation for me to be a part of, and I cannot wait for you to hear it!

In our conversation, we discuss…

* When Liz first started using the phrase “A Broadway Body”

* Richard Simmons Tapes - seeing people in different sizes of bodies dancing for fun

* The impact of the wild ideologies preached to us in musical theatre

* Pursuing what body modifications work for you and respecting others’ bodily agency

* Our thoughts on plastic surgery, aging, body modifications

* Art about the beauty standards, overconsumption, body image, and more

Resources Liz speaks on in our conversation:

* Books:

* Girl on Girl

* The Manicurist’s Daughter

* Films:

* The Substance

* Dumplings

* Helter Skelter

* Death Becomes Her

“ I’m thinking about just the experience of the contrast of being a high schooler with a BFA problems Twitter account to then being a college student getting a BFA, I guess I don’t necessarily want to rehash all the wild feedback that a lot of us got in our program, but a lot of us were getting wild feedback that reinforced these ideas that you need to look a certain way to perform and you need to look a certain way to be even worthy of being seen on stage. I didn’t realize that I was thinking about things in those terms until after college.”

- Liz J

Megan Gill: Hi, Liz!

Liz J: Hey, Megan!

Megan Gill: I’m so excited that you’re here today and that we get to chat!

Liz J: Oh, I’m so excited to be here. Yeah, thanks for having me!

Megan Gill: Absolutely! Do you wanna just start by introducing yourself and a little bit about the work that you do in the world?

Liz J: Sure, so I’m Liz J. So Megan and I went to college together. We were in the musical theater world.

Megan Gill: We were.

Liz J: So I have that background and I still very much consider myself a creative person and do a lot of creative work, but I’m not really doing it for money. And I kind of like that setup right now. I have a normal-person job working at a law firm. So I’m mostly making trainings for new attorneys, and it’s a really great job in a lot of ways. And I still am able to be creative.

For example, I’m working on a training right now that I get to design puppets for it. That’s crazy. In what world are puppets at a law firm. But I have a really cool team that I work with, and I feel they see what I’m interested in and take interest in the things that I’m interested in and are very open-minded about what my role can look like. Yeah, I just am lucky to work with people who are also creative.

So, outside job-job, I also do puppetry and I make solo music and I’m in a choir and I make visual art and I write, and I wrote a musical with one of my best friends. Yeah.

Megan Gill: Whoa. Tell me more if you can.

Liz J: I mean it’s a really silly and campy musical, and we wrote the first draft in 2019, which is kind of wild to say because that is now a long time ago. But yeah, we had performance dates set for 2020, and then 2020 happened. So obviously we had to take a step back. And yeah, we weren’t sure when it would be a good time to do an in-person show again. So we kind of put it aside for a while. And then last year we brought it back up and we started working on it again, and we started working on it with Garrett Welch he’s helping us arrange the music, so…

Megan Gill: Cool.

Liz J: Hopefully gonna be producing it soon. It’s been a long journey, but that’s okay.

Megan Gill: Totally okay. This is so exciting, and I’m so excited to hear that you’ve stuck with it this long.

Liz J: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s not been consistent this whole time. we’ve kind of put it to the side for good chunks of time, but I think that’s also been good for it, you know? We can live life, do other creative projects, and then we kept wanting to revisit it, which I think says something the fact that we wanted to complete this project.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Agreed. I think that’s beautiful and lovely. It’s had time to breathe. It’s ready.

Liz J: Yeah, word. Exactly.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Okay, cool. I love that. Thanks for sharing all of that stuff. So yeah, we had crossover years at the same college program together. We weren’t in the same year, but whatever. It doesn’t matter because we were still in a lot of the same classes and we were still performing together and in dance together and probably even in scene study at some point. Yeah.

Liz J: Shows, yeah.

Megan Gill: Yes. Shows together, all of that good stuff. So that’s how we met. That’s our origin story. And I think that we met at this time where I was in a very different place in terms of relationship to my body. So I’m curious to hear a bit of your body image story and how your evolution as an actor and a creative and just a human being in general has influenced that.

Liz J: Yeah, so I mean, like I think a lot of young performers, I got bit by the bug early and was really, really passionate about it and really striving, I guess might be the word. I basically from the first time I did a musical in middle school, I just really wanted to do whatever it took to keep doing that. Let’s see. I’m trying to think how exactly to really phrase this.

I really wanted to pursue musical theater really hard, and when I was in high school, I was in a bunch of dance classes and I felt I was kind of playing catch-up because I hadn’t been dancing my entire life. And I think a lot of girls who were raised in the nineties, got a lot of wild feedback about what it meant to – as you’re growing up, what you should look like and what kind of body you’re taught is desirable. So that’s the air we’re breathing, at that time. It was very much a present – it was just incredibly on my mind throughout high school and into college. Thinking about my body is part of this package.

It’s kind of stunning thinking about myself being a teenager, having these thoughts like, “Ooh, I am something to market.” But it really – the teachers that I listened to, their messaging really stuck with me that I was just very much thinking of myself as a commodity from this tender age.

And yeah, when I got to college, it was a lot of also similar messaging. Megan, I’m honestly, I’m thinking about just wild, wild shit that I thought in high school because I’m like it really was – I don’t wanna get on here and trauma dump. That’s not it. I’m not – I don’t wanna be like, “Here are all these crazy things that were said,” but I do wanna demonstrate, like, okay, it really was so present.

I had all these friends that I was doing theater with in high school, and we had a satirical Twitter account called “BFA Problems.” We were high schoolers. We were not pursuing a BFA, but it was like we had a Twitter account and the icon was a LaDuca and we were just tweeting all this stuff about, about literally saying the phrase “Broadway body” in Tweets as high schoolers, you know? I’m 15, and we were deep in it. And one of my other very good friends who also went on to go to college for musical theater, he and I would do P90X in the morning.

Megan Gill: In high school.

Liz J: We were 16! That’s wild. You know? And so, it was just on my mind from an early – it’s early. That is an early age. That’s kind of wild thinking about a teenager thinking of – yeah.

Megan Gill: Hyper-fixating on bodies in this way. Yeah, agreed.

Liz J: Yeah.

Megan Gill: Agreed because as kids we’re so active, and a lot of kids play a sport or maybe have an afterschool activity. And so we do these things and there’s a long time of your childhood where you don’t even think twice about how much you’re moving your body. And then there comes a point, and for me it was high school as well, where I realized, “Oh, you mean I can move my body in this certain type of way or this much, and it can then look potentially a different way than it does now? And I don’t what I look like right now because all these messages tell me I shouldn’t look what I look right now.” It’s that moment that forever changes you. And I feel when that moment happens so early, even in high school, when our brains are not developed yet, it really can mess with your psyche. Yeah.

Liz J: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it was it is pretty stunning. I don’t know. I’m just thinking about how I had a childhood doctor say, “Hey, your kid should play a sport.” And so, I started doing swim team, and that’s also a tough sport.

Megan Gill: I’m sorry, I’m smiling because I also did swim team in high school.

Liz J: Wait, yes! I remember this!

Megan Gill: So I feel you!

Liz J: Yeah. I keep saying it was just in the air, but it was I’m thinking about being on swim team and then later going to the dressing room at Hollister and Abercrombie and you know always having an idea of which size you are and wondering – literally talking to friends about what size jean they wear.

Megan Gill: This is stuff that’s very fascinating actually, because I think a lot of these high-school conversations that we – I think a lot of us had very, very similar conversations. Or for instance, just the fact that we were both on a swim team where not only are you in a bathing suit in front of spectators, your whole team, but also that’s where I realized, “Oh, I can lift weights and move my body this much and maybe lose some weight because society’s telling me that my body is not good the way it is, and I need to change it.” It’s all of these different facets of what you’re talking about I think are such a universal experience for so many young people.

Liz J: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I’m also just thinking about the books that were out at that point, so many diet books, those were definitely in my house. The Atkins Diet. Skinny Bitch, that’s one wild title. But that book, thinking about also just what was considered plus-size back then is wild to me. Bridget Jones, that that’s a plus-size woman allegedly at that time, or Jennifer Hudson when she was on American Idol. There was so much discussion of her body and her weight. And looking at pictures, it’s really stunning. I guess it’s not about what the threshold is for what kind of body is considered a big body, but it’s that was just such an average woman.

I just read this book called Girl on Girl, and it talks a lot about how the nineties and the early aughts just really did girls and women dirty, in terms of representation of women and how we talked about bodies, how we talked about femininity, what that is, and yeah, reality TV also, the way that that played a big role in things. It was such a weird time. But I also feel like I’m preaching to the choir, you know? We all were surrounded by this wild media that had these really impossible standards. And no matter which way you swing on the pendulum, whether you’re considered culturally too large or considered too small, there really is no – what’s the fable? It’s too hot, it’s too cold…

Megan Gill: Ooh, Goldilocks!

Liz J: Yeah, it’s there really is no way to do everything right.

Megan Gill: Right, there’s no winning here.

Liz J: Yeah, and I feel so much of disordered eating ends up being – this is kind of a disjointed thought, but I’m thinking about just when I think of my relationship with disordered eating, it’s so much out of a desire to control, control my life, control my body. But ultimately it is not something that I have control over and there is no “right” body.

Megan Gill: There really isn’t. We are all truly so different and so unique in our own magical ways, but it’s just so devastating, I think, because we, instead of seeing the good in our physical bodies, a lot of times we can only see the bad things. And I know that I, too, for the longest time, and even still listen, one is never healed from this shit, but sometimes it’s really, really hard to see the good. And so, it’s so easy to just harp on the things we dislike and the ways that we think our body is letting us down or is doing us wrong or is betraying us. For instance, if the equation of, “Moving my body this much and eating this way equals I’m gonna look like that,” it’s like, no, it doesn’t work like that because our bodies are different and because, as you age, they evolve even more and grow in various ways.

But also I am curious – and it’s to the extent that you feel comfortable and to the extent that you wanna share, of course – how growing up in a time where all of these messages around you and your deep involvement in this BFA problems Twitter with all your theater friends affected you and your relationship to your body. Then, and then two-part question. I always ask the big questions, and my guests are like, “Whoa, there’s a lot going on here.”

Liz J: A lot to unpack here, yeah, yeah.

Megan Gill: I know! And then how that has evolved kind of as you’ve grown into who you are today, sort of.

Liz J: Okay. Yeah, so overall it has gone from this thing that really I was thinking about on a daily basis to something that is just way less present in my mind and is not – I think also just aging has given me an amount of perspective and realizing, “Oh, oh, wow, there really is so much more to be focused on than my appearance or the aesthetics of my body.” Like the function of my body is much more important to me, or just being an adult who works or experiencing grief and gaining appreciation for, “Oh, my body is relatively healthy and functional. I think all of those things have helped with the perspective and kind of decreasing the size of the body-image stuff in my brain.

But I think also being able to talk through a bunch of this stuff with people that we went to college with or people who also went to college for performance stuff, that has been so important in kind of deconstructing some of this stuff that really felt, at the time, truth. Really, I think about myself when I was a teenager into my early twenties. While I was in college in this program I was in this cult mindset of, “This is all correct, and if I do want to have success, then my body needs to look a certain way.” And also having a very narrow idea of what success looks like.

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Liz J: Yeah, I’m thinking about just the experience of the contrast of being a high schooler with a BFA problems Twitter account to then being a college student getting a BFA, I guess I don’t necessarily want to rehash all the wild feedback that a lot of us got in our program, but a lot of us were getting wild feedback that reinforced these ideas that you need to look a certain way to perform and you need to look a certain way to be even worthy of being seen on stage. I didn’t realize that I was thinking about things in those terms until after college.

I really love to dance, and I’m not talking about technical dance. I’m not talking about executing choreography. I love to dance. I love to go to a show and just move and have fun and dance, and for the longest time – well, not for the longest time, but basically I think until I was I don’t know, 26 or something – I’m 31 now for context, but, I really was thinking, “Oh, I don’t wanna go out dancing. No one wants to see me dance,” which now feels such a wild way to think about it. When I go out dancing, that is so much for myself, so much for the liberation of being out and also being out with other people and being with people I love and also with strangers and the freedom of moving my body. It is not an aesthetic experience. And when I’m watching other people who are fully dancing with their whole bodies, it’s like I am not looking at them with that kind of evaluating eye that I was looking at myself with when I was younger.

But yeah, I very much had these ideas that – I was more flexible with other people, but with myself, I had these very inflexible ideas about what I need to look to be worthy of – how I needed to meet whatever guidelines I had made up for myself to be worthy of performing. Which I just so don’t feel anymore. I think about myself it during those periods of my life and I’m oh honey, you don’t – the world is so much bigger than that, and there are so many more people.

Megan Gill: And almost when – just to jump in here, there’s so many things. Oh my gosh, so many things. But it’s when you are embodied and when you are dancing because you fucking love to dance and you just wanna move and vibe, that is when the magic happens and when the connection happens and when – this whole concept of living your life to the fullest, that’s the beauty. That’s when the beauty of that gets to really shine and isn’t that what life is about? And it’s just really heartbreaking to hear you say that. It just shakes me to my core because, sure, it’s this messaging that, well, yeah, you don’t inhabit a body that typically is onstage and therefore we’re gonna teach you this so heavily, teach you this ideal and shove it down your throat and feed you this messaging from when you’re 18 to 22, more or less. And therefore the fact that that gets – I mean, that’s what happens. It gets internalized and tied to our worth as a human being. You did not feel worthy of being onstage or you didn’t think that other people should have to look at you experiencing your joy in this incredible vessel that you have? That is really what pisses me off.

Liz J: Yeah. I mean, I’m being glib, but yeah, it’s a bummer. It’s just not right. I am hopeful that things are changing. I do feel a lot of hope when I look at people who are pursuing, I mean, I don’t know. Honestly, I cannot pretend to have my finger on the pulse of theater or musical theater right now. I, in so many ways, feel – I am just not as I used to be really glued to it. And I don’t have my finger on the pulse in that way now, but…

Megan Gill: That’s okay. I do not either.

Liz J: Yeah, but the flashes I see are like, oh, this is encouraging. It seems the way that people are talking about casting and type, it is changing.

Megan Gill: Yes.

Liz J: That gives me hope. Also, seeing younger people who are pursuing any kind of creative thing. People are talking about appearance and aesthetics in different ways. I mean, I will also say a caveat to that is I also see a lot of – you see 10 year olds who are Sephora children, you know?

So you really see quite a range of approaches too, and also capitalism is always going to be a big old force there that keeps us wanting – tries to encourage us to keep spending money on this pursuit that is kind of fruitless a lot of the time.

Yeah, there is a lot that gives me hope about future generations who are pursuing creative paths. And I also, I don’t know, I feel being a teacher in any kind of space, it’s a really kind of sacred occupation. It’s a really important role. And I think, people are getting a little more – I think it’s starting to become more clear, the impact that educators can have or anyone in any kind of authority role where they have say and input. I think people are becoming a little more aware of the words that you say, they matter and they can stick with a person. And so don’t mince your words.

Megan Gill: I know that I can very much relate to you in the aging process because I’m now 33 and being 10 years removed from our college program, I have a completely different relationship to my body than I did back then. And it is also interesting because I’m also not pursuing music theater and theater at the moment. I’m not deep in it. And so it’s interesting because we also kind of share that, and I’m like hmm, I wonder how much of an influence that has had on my ability to sit with some of these things and try to heal some of these wounded parts of myself and heal my relationship to my body and try to carry that forward.

Liz J: Hearing you talk about just the element of neither of us are deep in it the way that we were when we were 18 to 22, give or take, know I personally had to give myself some space from it. And I really trust on a deep level that I’m always going to be a creative person and always be able to do creative work. I just trust that, and I’m grateful that I do trust that because I don’t know that I had those beliefs when I was, you know, a fresh little teen. I think I was thinking about things in a little more of a binary of you’re pursuing the arts or you’re not. You’re performing professionally or you’re in a cubicle and it looks you’re in the movie Office Space and you hate your life.

And it’s actually there are so many nuances there, so many shades of what your work means to you and what the role your work plays – how your work plays into your life, and what you want from a job at that point and how identity gets tied up in it. So much of my identity was tied to being a performer. But it wasn’t tied to being creative.

Megan Gill: This is revolutionary because I think you’re touching on an experience that I, myself, also had in my own way, and I can pinpoint it for myself because I always say that, specifically when I was in college and high school and thereafter when I was deep in the thick of my tumultuous relationship to my body, with food and exercise, I was so disconnected from the art and the why I was even doing it in the first place. And now that I have worked to heal so much of my relationship to my body, I am freed up to be creative and to let the creativity that was always inside of me come out. This is so interesting, but it also makes so much sense to me, and I’ve never thought about it like this before.

Liz J: Yeah, I mean, in college, don’t get me wrong, I do feel there were a lot of opportunities to be creative and I still am not trying to say that I didn’t have any agency. I did kind of reach a point, a little bit after graduating college where I kind of felt like a puppet. I was kind of like I am saying lines, someone else wrote, I’m being directed by someone else. This is music. Someone else wrote, I’m in a costume someone else designed, the lighting is designed by someone else. I am in a lot of ways executing what other people have designed or written or created. Which is not – I think also I was just not in the greatest of head spaces to where I was all of this equals I’m a puppet. I did feel like, oh, I would to be a little bit – I’d to be maybe more in partnership with the creation process. And I’d to explore what it is I have to say. And I think that also was such a – moving to Chicago from Kansas was such a good thing for me because when I moved to Chicago, I moved here largely thinking, oh, I wanna do improv and sketch comedy. And I say that with a little bit of a shrug because I definitely do not do improv nowadays. But all that stuff is still with me. And I met a lot of my greatest friends and people that I still make stuff with through the comedy kind of world. But it was such a. Refreshing, I guess, adjustment, going from a musical theater program to being in improv and sketch comedy classes where the focus is on what you have to say and how you’re saying it and what you’re making, and I didn’t really feel that in the same way when I was just pursuing performing in musicals. It also felt incredibly foreign to me. I was like you’re asking me what my point of view is? I don’t have one.

Megan Gill: Yes, yes. That’s also a piece of the experience for me as well. So interesting. It’s liberating to come into your voice and to find like, yeah, sure. We’re using our voice when we’re saying other people’s words, but when you find your voice as a creative and tying that to who you are as a human and letting the human parts of yourself come out in said expression too, right?

Liz J: Yeah. I’m joking about ha, I didn’t have a point of view. And it’s like, well, I did, but I had to kind of dig in there and get a little more secure in myself and start. I had to cook, you know? I had to just grow up a little bit and get a little more secure in myself. And also talking about body stuff, get more comfortable in my own body and like myself more. Are you kidding? it’s very hard to make art if you don’t feel like – instead of saying royal you, I should just say It was hard for me to write anything when I felt very disconnected from myself and had very much been in this trying to please different teachers and these prescribed paths and plans, and it’s liberating but it was also scary to realize, oh, I have a lot more agency than I thought I did.

But yeah, also, I really feel like queerness has also helped and changed my relationship with my body. This is another way that Megan and I met, but when I went to college, I promptly got a girlfriend who was friends with Megan. We’re all still pals, rock and roll.

Megan Gill: Hey, Kate!

Liz J: Yeah, but it was oh, I just – generally speaking, dating women and seeing it’s seeing the parts of my body that I have been insecure about or felt whatever way about, kind of mirrored in another person that I care about and seeing, oh, that’s not a – I still like that about them. Or that’s not gross. That’s part of them. I love that because it’s part of them, it’s not this – I don’t know if that makes sense.

Megan Gill: No, that makes total sense.

Liz J: Thinking about, “Ooh, my stomach,” or whatever the heck thinking, ugh, this is something I wanna not have. But then it’s seeing that on another person and hearing them say, “I’m insecure about this,” or whatever. It’s like, oh, my god. I’m not even thinking about that.

Megan Gill: Yeah. I’m not even looking at that or taking that into account when I’m thinking about why I like you as the person I’m seeing, yeah.

Liz J: Yeah. And I also just think queerness, it’s got its own kind of world and ideas about – it’s not playing by the same kind of heterosexual rules of what is deemed attractive. It’s way more expansive than that. I think that also played a big part in me kind of repairing my relationship with my body, renegotiating it, how I feel about it and learning to like different parts of myself.

Also, getting tattooed. It might sound trite, but it has been amazing to kind of put other people’s art on my body, and I feel like I’m speaking about agency a lot, getting tattooed, I feel so much agency over my body when I’m deciding if I wanna get a new tattoo and what I want and where, and it feels great to be like I get to customize this weird little this meat suit I’ve got for the rest of my life. I get to design it and I love it. I love my arms. They’re covered in tattoos, and honestly, growing up I felt kind of neutral about my arms, and now I’m like, oh yeah, I’m gonna wear sleeveless stuff all the time. Yeah. So…

Megan Gill: Yeah. That’s really lovely. Both of those pieces I think are super important and I’m so glad that you touched on how they have influenced bringing you back into your body. And I love how you said you renegotiated the terms with your body too. That’s such a beautiful phrase. That’s a beautiful way to put it.

Liz J: Richard Simmons. Also, shout out Richard Simmons. He was my COVID guy. It felt very nice to be doing grapevines at home. When I was talking about oh until maybe 26, I was not really – these weird ideas about dancing. And then it was like doing Richard Simmons – also seeing all this body diversity in his old tapes. That was huge.

Megan Gill: Wait, cool. Were they YouTube or were they physical VHS vibes?

Liz J: Yeah, on YouTube, I just fell down this rabbit hole watching old Richard Simmons YouTube videos. I love him. I really do. I mean, okay, I can’t endorse everything. He would still say some weird thing about you know, melting fat or something, and I’d be okay, chill.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Can we not?

Liz J: But for the most part it was this really body positive cool thing where it’s all these people dancing, and they’re all shapes and sizes, and I think also just seeing people in different bodies dancing and dancing for fun also. Seeing them have pleasure and fun from dancing, that really changed things too.

Megan Gill: That’s really, really great and really important as well.

Liz J: I will say, this last year I read The Manicurist’s Daughter. It’s a really kind of stunning memoir that this woman writes about her mother. Her mother dies while getting a tummy tuck.

Megan Gill: Wow.

Liz J: Have you heard of this book?

Megan Gill: I have not, but I will be taking note of it.

Liz J: So I’ll be frank, especially during these really critical of my body periods of time, I had been like, “Maybe someday I’ll get a tummy tuck.” Anyway, zooming back out, reading this book, the author, she describes in so many ways, her relationship with her body and she’s also kind of trying to piece together based on the time she did spend with her mom, her mom’s relationship with her body, and I just shout out to The Manicurist’s Daughter. And it made me – I don’t want to be eating my words, but I just do not want to pursue – I don’t know. I’m not trying to, yeah, I don’t know. I’m like, “No, fuck no. I’m not ever gonna get a tummy tuck. I don’t want that.” I value my life too much.

Megan Gill: Yes to all of that. That’s huge. Yeah. I’m with you. I’m so with you. It’s these things that come up, whether it’s a piece of art or whether it’s just re-relating to the way we’re marketed to, or the beauty industry or whatever it is. And realizing and coming to terms with I don’t want to alter my body in that way. I know I’ve had my own version of that. I’m still pursuing film acting and commercial acting, right, in my own ways. But I’m like I don’t wanna get Botox because everyone’s doing it. And I wanna explore what it’s to have to sit with the discomfort of looking at the lines in my face as I age and working through those feelings. And again, I’m same as you. I don’t want to eat my words or speak too soon, but I really hope that I can stick with this just for the personal growth this, the self-growth that could be in that, that a lot of people wanna run from. And I don’t blame them for wanting to run from these feelings. It’s fucking terrifying.

Liz J: Oh, for sure. To be pretty I don’t know, harsh or blunt about it. The world is harder on women who age and show signs of aging, you know? And not just in the entertainment industry, I feel like just culturally, yeah, youth is a currency. I feel it’s a totally natural reaction to try and want to retain as much of that currency as you can.

So I grind my teeth, and my dentist suggested I get Masseter Botox, and on my temples. I was straight up grinding through my night guard, okay? And so they were like, “We really recommend this.” So I did it and it was $600 for this. It’s not covered by insurance. And they had said, “You’ll probably need to get it redone in I think they said maybe four to six months.” Because it’s temporary. You have to keep doing this. Eventually it can have the effect of – I don’t know. I feel I’m kind of talking out my ass because I am not an expert on Botox. And this is me relaying this conversation that was over a year ago. But I got the jaw Botox. I got the Botox and the temples from my dentist. And I was also kind of nervous that I would – that this would be the introduction to it, and then it would kind of – that barrier is now taken down and it’s like I feel comfortable doing it wherever. And it did help my teeth grinding my, a little bit, a little bit. But I’ll say, really not enough, truly not enough. And it’s $600 every six months. Those are flights. I don’t know. It is really tough, but it’s I think about – you know, I think spending that money in other ways, that feels like a decision that’s more aligned with how I wanna live right now, you know? I can’t guarantee that’s how I’m always going to feel. And also, you know, I also have a lot of friends who have gotten Botox or different injectables. You could also totally argue that me getting tattooed, that is body modification. And getting filler, that’s another kind of body modification.

Megan Gill: Yeah, that’s true. I think it’s whatever works for each individual person, and it’s not about shaming any one person for – which, again, historically with tattoos, I know that there has culturally been a lot of shame wrapped up in them in various social circles and various cultures, yada, yada. But yeah, we also have a lot of work to do as far as not shaming the people who do want to explore those things because it’s not your body, it’s theirs.

Liz J: Oh, yeah. I’m also just thinking about some of this stuff can also be very gender-affirming, and I’m absolutely not looking at folks that are doing it to feel more in line with how they want to present. I’m not looking at them thinking, “Ooh, no.” But it’s just I’m thinking about my own relationship with my face and my body.

And for me, I guess the choice that feels more in line with – I don’t know, I feel I’m making this a little convoluted, but just trying to say being able to – part of having agency over your body is you get to choose what you do and don’t do to alter it, and it’s something that we all have to – again, I feel I’m preaching to the choir, but it’s just like, yeah, that’s something we all have to figure out for ourselves. And I think the more time I spend with it, the more I’m like, okay, the way that I am going to – I think I want to try and just let this face wrinkle and sag, let it age and I will continue getting tattoos. I don’t know.

Megan Gill: Yeah, and that can evolve as you age too, right? It’s coming to terms with that within yourself, but then also coming to terms with that as far as letting other people do them. And then also coming to terms with the fact that this can change and evolve how it may at any point in time. It’s so, so, so nuanced. It’s really lovely and also difficult at times, and so interesting to talk about because it is different for every person, right?

Liz J: Yeah, okay, now we’ve got me thinking about film. The last couple years, I’ve really gotten into body horror and especially after watching The Substance.

Megan Gill: I have not seen it, but it is on my list and I think I’m just – and horror is a little – I need to watch it, Liz, but I’m scared.

Liz J: It’s a lot. It really is a lot. But anyway, I had seen that. And then also recently saw Dumplings directed by Fruit Chan. That was a movie that was made in Hong Kong, kind of a similar premise where she’s approaching middle age, she’s an actress, and she meets this woman who makes these dumplings that have this rejuvenating effect. And you know – yeah, you’re grimacing.

Megan Gill: I’m already ill. I’m already ill. It’s giving Sweeney Todd.

Liz J: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, no spoilers, but it’s very similar. Yeah. It’s kind of part of the same genre as The Substance. Helter Skelter is a Japanese movie that I also saw for the first time this year with really similar themes. And Ugly Stepsister, this Norwegian movie.

So I’m saying all of these, but I’m also kind of stunned that there aren’t more films that deal with the obsession of plastic surgery and aging and body modification. And I started making a list in Letterboxd of okay, here are all these movies that have to deal with this. And I’m like, all right, we’ve got The Substance, Ugly Stepsister, Death Becomes Her, Helter Skelter, Eyes Without a Face. I also have a lot of movies listed in there that I haven’t seen yet. But I’ve heard that they’re thematically in that kind of world.

But the fact that mainstream, big-budget films, kind of dealing with these themes we’re in the dozens, versus you think about how many films are about being like, “Oh, I’m still single in my thirties.” You’ve got so many movies about that. I don’t know. That was just the first thing I thought of. But yeah, I thought it was interesting that we really don’t have a ton of films that tackle this cultural capitalist – just how much money and effort and energy can be put into appearance, I suppose.

Megan Gill: Yeah. I’ll co-sign that through and through, because I feel The Substance was the first film I saw widely marketed at the level that it was with the cast that it had.

Liz J: Yeah. And as I’m saying this, I’m starting to kind of think, okay, maybe I am generalizing a little too much because I do think there are quite a few films that do deal with like, “Oh, I don’t feel I’m enough appearance-wise.” That is a theme that I see a lot of.

Megan Gill: Yes. But let’s call it out at the level that these films you just spoke about are calling it out. So, yeah, totally. There’s nuance there. There’s nuance there.

Liz J: I want to see more about the financial aspect, how predatory some of this can be. How consuming it can be. Consuming, consumption, just over-consumption. I wanna see more about that.

Megan Gill: Yes, absolutely. I’m with you on that. Okay. I have a final question for you before we wrap up, it’s funny because you kind of touched on it a little bit earlier, but I’m wondering what your favorite thing or things are about your body. They can be physical, non-physical, both physical and non-physical. Totally up to you, however you want to answer that.

Liz J: Well, yeah, I mean, I did already refer to all my tattoos. I really do love all my tattoos, and I love that I get to continue getting tattoos. I also got the supplies to start giving myself tattoos. I gave myself a really terrible stick and poke last year.

Megan Gill: I am obsessed with this.

Liz J: We’re gonna very slowly evolve there. But tattoos and also just I like that I feel very comfortable and grounded in my body these days. And I love that I can use it to bike. I’ve gotten into biking this year, and it’s so great to be able to bike from home from work. Now I’m into the, the music festivals, the dancing

Megan Gill: I love it.

Liz J: I’m so pleased with myself that I can dance comfortably and that I feel comfortable doing that and that I dance hard and I have fun dancing. I love that my body allows me to do that. And I love that my body houses everything. It houses my brain, it houses my voice, and to sing. That’s what allows me to do that. So I think I have a lot more gratitude for my body nowadays.

Megan Gill: That’s really, really beautiful and so special, and just the imagery of the fact that it houses your brain and your voice and your heart and everything about who you are and the things that you do. That made me emotional. That was lovely. Thank you for sharing that, Liz.

Liz J: Well, thanks for asking and thanks for having me!

Megan Gill: Of course! Thank you for having this conversation with me!

“ This is kind of a disjointed thought, but I’m thinking about just when I think of my relationship with disordered eating, it’s so much out of, you know, a desire to control - control my life, control my body. But ultimately, it is not something that I have control over, and there is no ‘right’ body.”

- Liz J

Liz is an artist, writer, and performer based in Chicago, IL. She grew up in Wichita, Kansas as a little musical theater freak, and has since branched out into puppetry, visual art, non-musical-theater-music, and has also co-written a musical that she’ll (hopefully!) co-produce in 2026.

Follow Liz on Instagram!

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* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.

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While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers.