Courage to Resist

by Courage to Resist

“I was highly motivated in basic training, highly motivated. I took every part of suffering as part of what I would expect.”

This Courage to Resist podcast was recorded and edited by Matthew Breems. Production assistance, Stephanie Atkinson. Executive Producer, Jeff Paterson. This episode brought to you in collaboration with the GI Resistance Working Group of Veterans For Peace.

If you appreciate these podcasts, and you’d like to enable us to keep making them for you, please donate today.

Hart Viges:

Matthew Breems:

Hart, welcome to the Courage to Resist podcast. Thank you so much for taking your time to be on here and to share your story of resistance. Let’s dig in and get some background on you. Tell us about the years leading up to you joining the military and what was your main motivation for doing it at that stage of your life?

Hart Viges:

Matthew Breems:

Hart Viges:

Matthew Breems:

Hart Viges:

Matthew Breems:

Hart Viges:

Matthew Breems:

Hart Viges:

Matthew Breems:

Hart Viges:

I was the 50 Cal gunner on back of an unarmored humvee. So I just sat up there. I didn’t…Sometimes I’d help prep the rounds, but I wasn’t the gunner or the Sergeant, but I just stayed on that 50 watching my sector. Did a lot of watching my sector. And then when we moved into As-Samawah, seeing all the burnt vehicles and the armored, Bradley armored, it was a scout. So it was a humvee we heard over the radio, got hit by a rocket. On the radio, we’re hearing all this screaming and….uh wilding out. I wanted so badly…we need to go in there and we had to stay our position. We were mortars and we’re hearing the radio of taxi cabs. The enemy using taxi cabs to move around. Any taxi cab was a orange and white car painted orange and white. The town lit up, everybody’s firing at the civilian cars and shit.

Matthew Breems:

Hart Viges:

And the mother was really begging at our feet crying, pleading with us, and I knew what we were doing was wrong, but I just held it in and I owe that mother a lifetime of trying to make right by this. They got taken to the most likely […] at Baghdad Airport at the time. We did a lot of that too of detainees in our FOB (forward operating base), would be collected at our FOB and we’d take them to the airport. That was probably the most I’ve interacted with the locals, just sitting in a room with about eight or nine men and women, made sure if they wanted a meal, even if you could tell like the guards before who we were relieving. They were total assholes to them and who knows what, but I make sure everybody got MREs, water, cigarettes. There was usually a couple gentlemen there that spoke English.

They would translate for us, our conversations. This woman was saying a lot to me, about me and I was like, “What’s she saying?” And he said that, “She says you are a good man. You’re a good man. Make sure cigarettes and food.” I remember the previous guard was like, “She threatened us with a grenade at a gas station. F her.” I’m like, “Okay, you know, did she have a grenade?” “No, she just said it.” I was like, “Okay. This is not cool either.” You see those gas lines there in Baghdad at the time and people were waiting days. The lines would literally go around neighborhoods, down highways. It was crazy. The American troops, we don’t wait for anything. We will just roll in, move those cars, refill our trucks. Yeah. If you’ve been waiting for a couple of days, you’d be angry too and say you want to throw grenade at these troops that are just disregarding you. We made their people feel small.

Matthew Breems:

Hart Viges:

Matthew Breems:

Hart Viges:

I felt like I was having these heart attacks where my left arm was going numb and sharp pain in my chest. I… debilitating. I go check in with the hospital and they said the protective sac around your heart is being inflamed. Are you stressed out? “Yeah. Shot at, IED, mortared, car wreck.” Yeah, but I put on, I was like, “No Airborne! Infantry!” Well, they give me a two week period of not having PT, no physical training. Can’t smoke me either. So I’m real happy when I take it to my platoon Sergeant saying, giving a piece of paper like “I can’t get smoked, no PT, You take it easy.” And he said, “Why are they giving you this?” And I said,” I’m stressed.” And he was like, “Are you stressed?” And I just, I started crying. “They’re going to fuck me, Sergeant! They’re going to fuck me.” He reacted really, really cool and was like, “What? What? Why? Why?” Trying to ask me these questions, calming me down. I’m like, “I can’t do it. I can’t pull the trigger. I don’t want to kill anyone.”

He sat me down and really played the fatherly role. I have so much respect for Sergeant Stone. So much respect. Tried to calm me down and told me that war affects people different ways. Would you like to go talk to the chaplain? I’m like, “Yes. I want to talk to the chaplain.” So I continue my nervous breakdown in front of a chaplain. He asked me if I’m a conscientious objector. Those words just sounded right to me. And I said, “Yes.” Not really knowing what a conscientious objector is. I was like, “Yes! That sounds right! Anything other than what I am now, I can’t be.” He said, “Why don’t you go think about it?” So I go to the computer and I am searching “conscientious objector”. I find “Veterans for Peace”, and become a member. They, behind my back, my platoon Sergeant, my first Sergeant, went to whoever made a bigger decision, and moved me from my mortar platoon to chaplain’s assistant. That was the news waiting for me when I got back at the end of the day, from Googling all this stuff.

Matthew Breems:

Hart Viges:

10 months later, I got honorably released as a conscientious objector. They delayed my paperwork–once. I called the Congressman from San Angelo, Texas, a Republican. You know, combat vet applying for a conscientious objection, they delayed my, the time that they needed to send off my paperwork. I was like, “Can you look into it?” Just wrote. They always say “Write a letter to your Congressman.” You don’t really expect much out of it, but that weekend I drove to Texas, went to a concert. On my way back, I’m driving, I’m in Louisiana when I get the call like, “Where are you?” And he said, “Well, there is a civilian here from Congress looking into your paperwork.” And they sounded scared, they sounded scared. And I was like, “Well, I can’t, I’m drunk. I can’t drive right now.” Man, it was the first time I felt power. Real power. They definitely got my paperwork moving smoothly after that.

Matthew Breems:

Hart Viges:

Matthew Breems:

Hart Viges:

Matthew Breems:

Hart Viges:

Matthew Breems:

The post Podcast: “I wanted to lay my rifle down.” – Hart Viges appeared first on Courage to Resist.

by Courage to Resist

Jim Albertini is a conscientious objector, lifelong strategist, activist, author, and director of the Malu-aina center for non-violent education and action in Hawaii. On multiple occasions, his actions have had substantial impact not only in anti-war demonstrations, but in challenging law all the way to the Supreme Court. Jim’s relentless determination to defeat injustice combined with his sense of humor is an inspiration.

“…Hawaii, I mean, it really is one of the most militarized places in the world. Over a hundred military installations, over 20% of the island of Oahu, that main island, is military bases.”

“So, we announced ahead of time in June of ’84 that the ship that would be coming in…well, we would have a nonviolent swimming blockade…and we were fished out of the water, and eventually prosecuted for violation of the war zone…as the key organizer, I was given the maximum sentence, three years in federal prison for the swim.”

This Courage to Resist podcast was produced in collaboration with the Vietnam Full Disclosure effort of Veterans For Peace — “Towards an honest commemoration of the American war in Vietnam.” We mark about 50 years of GI resistance, in and out of uniform, for many of the courageous individuals featured. Interview and edit by Matthew Breems. Production assistance by Stephanie Atkinson. Jeff Paterson, Executive Producer.

“The ‘ban and bar’ letter, I think banned me from about 40 or 50 installations, some of them I’d never even heard of or never were on…most ‘ban and bar’ letters are in effect for just a year, but the military claim I’m a lifer. Mine’s good for life.”

We need to raise at least $15,000 to produce this two-year-long series of 50+ interviews so that this history is not lost!

Jim Albertini:

Matthew Breems:

Today on the podcast longtime activist, Jim Albertini. For over 50 years, Jim has been an activist in the heavily militarized Hawaiian islands. Arrested numerous times for his involvement in the peace movement, Jim was a relentless advocate for the anti-war movement during the Vietnam conflict. His organization continues to investigate and reveal the military’s environmental impact in Hawaii.

Jim, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the podcast for this episode of Courage to Resist. All of our guests, we want to get to know you personally. So, give us an overview of your growing up years, and what transpired that propelled you to become an activist, in your case, against the Vietnam conflict?

Jim Albertini:

But the real activism in terms of anti-war was in the ’60s. I went to grammar school and high school in a small town, Catholic schools right in the neighborhood. And then I went to Villanova University from 1964 to ’68. And it was during those years with, of course, the Vietnam War growing.

Two events before that had some profound effects on me. One was the Cuban Missile Crisis, 1962, when we all had to take shelter. And the real issue was, was there going to be a nuclear war? And then a positive thing after that a year later was an encyclical written by Pope John XXIII, “Pacem in Terris”, “On Nonviolence”.

So, both the Cuban missile crisis on a negative side, or maybe on a positive side to inspire coming to terms with this reality of global extinction, but the nonviolence of John XXIII inspired me to really look into nonviolence. People like Gandhi and Martin Luther King, of course in the mid sixties was a profound experience with nonviolence.

So, in college, I studied theology and economics. There seemed like strange parallels there. A lot of the people in the economics section were really into the corporate mindset. They were headed for Wall Street and “Greed is Good” type of future. And those in my theology side seemed to be into very pious, kind of religious things. And to me, the two didn’t speak to me. I saw the theology from the Martin Luther King standpoint and Gandhi, a spiritual thing for justice and peace. And I saw the economics also as a thing for social justice, what’s good for the common worker.

In college, the Vietnam war was rising. And when I graduated, I had been involved in some anti-war protests. But when we faced graduation in ’68, we had to decide what we were going to do. I had some friends left the country because of the war. Others went in enlisted or were drafted. And some of us chose a life of resistance and were eventually jailed for quite a length of time.

I chose to file conscientious objector status. Because I had that training in theology, I could articulate my opposition from a spiritual standpoint to the war. In fact, the week I graduated from Villanova, May 13th of ’68 was the day that the Berrigan brothers, two priests and seven others in Catonsville, Maryland, went into a local draft board, took out the 1A draft files, put them into baskets, this is in broad daylight, working hours, and went out into the parking lot, poured homemade napalm over those files and burned them, and were jailed for their resistance. They were not of draft age, but it was clearly resistance to the draft of what they called human hunting licenses of people. So, that had profound effect on me, King and the Berrigan action. Really, this was major events that you never forget.

So anyway, I started teaching school after writing my conscientious objector thing. They didn’t act on it because teaching school was a necessity at that point. They was so short on teachers that they didn’t act on my conscientious objector thing.

Here’s a significant event. The first time I was really arrested was Veteran’s Day of 1968. Myself and two other teachers in this small town of Clearfield, Pennsylvania, central Pennsylvania, we decided to picket the draft board after school that day. We were in suits and ties and we went down to the draft board.

But we made two very strategic mistakes that day. First of all, we didn’t check out the terrain, what was around the draft board. So, we didn’t realize that around the corner from the draft board was a Vets’ hall. And by 2:00 or 3:00 in the afternoon on Veterans Day, there were likely to be several drunken veterans in that barroom of the hall. And we were attacked by drunken veterans that day and beaten with our own picket signs. And that points to the second lesson learned, never make a picket sign out of something you won’t want to be beaten over the head with.

So, the funny thing of that day is the police came to this. We didn’t resist the veterans. We didn’t fight back to them. We took some blows, serious blows. Fortunately, none of us were seriously injured. But we all were thrown in the paddy wagon and taken to the police station. And then several community people came and said, “We’re eyewitnesses to this event. And those teachers, they didn’t raise a hand to fend off the blows. They were peacefully picketing. They didn’t agitate the veterans. They were just attacked by these group of drunken veterans.”

So, we were released that day. And in fact, the police said, “You can press charges if you want against these people that attacked you.” But we said we didn’t want to do that. But when they sober up, please remind them that there’s such a thing as a first amendment that they’re supposed to be fighting for. Since then, I’ve been arrested, oh, dozens of times for nonviolent actions, and again, spent probably close to two years in prison.

Matthew Breems:

Jim Albertini:

Matthew Breems:

Jim Albertini:

Now I found out we could get on that base so easily. There were thousands of workers there. We were planning a Good Friday march to that base. We were going to March from Honolulu International Airport. And I got in the wrong lane of traffic. And before I knew it, I was waved onto the base. There’s so much traffic going in in the morning. I was able to walk into the headquarters of the Pacific Air Force.

So, I came back to our peace group and talked about this, how the access was so easy and what I saw there. So, that’s when myself and a religion professor, Jim Douglas, at the University of Hawaii, we decided we were going to carry blood. A doctor friend took small test tubes of blood from myself, Jim Douglas, and a number of friends where if we had access to some high level material, top secret files or something, we’ll pour our blood on there to say this is an active resistance to the shedding of other people’s blood by the pouring of our own.

So that day again, it was March 2nd, 1972, we drove onto the base in the midst of all the traffic, and walked into the building and entered the electronic warfare office. And there was a major sitting at his desk. And Jim Douglas handed him an envelope with our statement in it. And the major looked at it, didn’t say a word. It was directed to the commanding officer. And he went into the back room, I guess, to deliver it to the commanding officer.

Right behind the major’s desk was a file cabinet marked “top secret”. And the drawers were even open. Blood was poured over those files. And when he came back into the room, the look of shock on his face. We tried tell him, “Look, this is a nonviolent act against the war with our own blood. Call the security we’ll sit here, wait to be arrested all the way.”

Matthew Breems:

Jim Albertini:

But the long and short of that trial, the military, even though we acknowledged pouring the blood on the files, they had to bring these top secret files into the courtroom and introduce them as evidence. And once they did that, those top secret files become public. And we said that would be our evidence against the government on war crimes. The whole issue of electronic warfare, sensory devices, anti-personnel weapons, all of that kind of stuff will come out. So, the military knew they were in a problem. So, they said, “We’re going to reduce the charges to a misdemeanor where we don’t have to bring the files into evidence.”

And a very unusual thing happened in the criminal case. The defendants, we opposed the reduction of charges against us from felony to misdemeanor. Now you don’t usually have that happening in criminal cases. So, we wanted the files into evidence. But they reduced the charges, found us guilty of a misdemeanor. Wouldn’t allow any of the Nuremberg prosecutors to testify and any of that kind of stuff. Kept the war issue as remote as they could.

We were sentenced to a year probation and a $500 fine. We refused to pay the fine openly, but they didn’t do anything until the year later. And the year later when I was supposed to appear in federal court to answer for why I didn’t pay the fine, I said, “Well, it makes more sense to do another resistance action instead of going to court.”

So, I ended up amazingly in the office of the Commander in Chief of the Pacific. And I had an envelope addressed to the commander in chief. I said, “I’m here to see the Commander in Chief.” They said, “Oh, yes sir. Follow me.” And they took the envelope and escorted me through the mahogany doors down the hall right into the foyer of the Commander in Chief’s office.

And they gave the envelope to the major or colonel, I think it was in that day, colonel at the desk. And he opened it up, and it had a warrant to arrest the commander on charges of war crimes, Commander in Chief Pacific. And this colonel picked up the phone, and I could see his hand shaking, and he said, “Legal team, you better get up here. We have a problem.” And within a few minutes, lawyers and armed guards were in the office.

And I said I wanted them to call U.S. marshals to have the Admiral arrested for war crimes. I had a list of the charges in the envelope there all based on Nuremberg and other things. But instead of the Commander in Chief being arrested, he was Noel Gayler, I was hauled out of the office, but never arrested. For refusing to pay the $500 fine, I was given 90 days in jail and a $250 fine. I refused it. I did the 90 days in jail, refused to pay the $250 fine. And I thought I was going to be put back in again, but that’s still outstanding today.

After the Vietnam war, I was fired from my teaching job for that blood pouring. It was interesting. The University of Hawaii provided me office space to run a peace organization, do peace education work. So, I did that from ’72 ’til ’80 to when I started this peace farm over here on the Big Island. But that’s what I worked, doing research in education there for eight years. And while I was there, we wrote a book called, “The Dark Side of Paradise” about Hawaii and the nuclear world. It was all about the military presence in Hawaii, especially the nuclear weapons systems in Hawaii.

But I was feeling drawn more to the grassroots rather the academic setting. And one of our supporters said, “We have this piece of land on the Big Island. 22 acres we’d be glad to donate if you could make use of it.” And I said, “Sure.” So, we set up a non-profit organization called Malu ‘Aina Center for Non-violent Education and Action. https://malu-aina.org/

In 1978 when we were preparing, doing this book research, I found out that the military, the Navy, was building a major nuclear weapon depot at West Loch of Pearl Harbor, to relocate weapons from other depots around the island. They weren’t doing an environmental impact statement to look at the possible effects of airplanes crashing into that side. It’s very close to the takeoff and landing at Honolulu International Airport. What about hijacking or thefts or terrorist actions, or just accidents in general?

So, we filed a suit. And a federal judge dismissed the case out of hand. “Oh, this is military, nuclear weapon, secrecy. Case dismissed.” So, we were stuck. How are we going to… What are we going to do from here? Well, we’re fortunate. We got the Center for Constitutional Rights out of New York City. They volunteered to take the case on appeal free of charge. And they said to take this case, if it goes up to the Supreme court, this will cost a million to two million dollars. But they said, “We’ll take it because it’s an important case on the issue of environmental impact statements, national security, and secrecy.”

We won at the Ninth Circuit Court level, and they appealed it to the Supreme court. And the Supreme court ruled against us. They ruled that national security, secrecy, national security trumps all. The basic ruling said that the people of Hawaii have no right to know and nothing to say about nuclear bombs stored in their backyard. I was on the Big Island now since ’80 and full time since ’81. And in 1984, we had a nonviolent blockade of a nuclear warship coming into Hilo Harbor.

Now what makes this interesting is that in 1981, Hilo, not only Hilo, Hawaii island, which is called the Big Island. It was the first county, first municipality in the entire U.S., to pass a law declaring itself a nuclear free zone. But the military said, “Nobody’s going to tell us where we can go with our nuclear power or nuclear armed warships.”

They used to have these warships come in twice a year. One was for this Hawaiian festival in March, a Hula festival. And another one was for the Chamber of Commerce Festival in July of every year. They have open houses on board the warship. The Navy would participate in the parades during those events. So, it was a junket. Well, we had appealed to the Navy to please respect our law. Come as citizens if you want. Participate in the parade even as military people, but leave your nuclear warship in Honolulu. Well, they refused.

So, we announced ahead of time in June of ’84 that the ship that would be coming in for the Chamber of Commerce Festival, well, we would have a nonviolent swimming blockade. What happened first is the Navy asked the Coast Guard to declare Hilo Bay “federal security zone”, really in effect martial law, on the day that ship arrived. Anybody who put their toe in the water with a protest sign against that nuclear warship was subject to a felony.

That day, we had 500 people down on the Hilo docks. Three of us entered the water. We jumped in the harbor and swam toward the ship, which was still a quarter of a mile or more away, hands up to signify “Stop”. And we were fished out of the water, and eventually prosecuted for violation of the war zone. And the maximum penalty was three years in prison.

And as the key organizer, I was given the maximum sentence, three years in federal prison for the swim. Ended up in federal prison at Terminal Island in California and eventually Lompoc Prison near Santa Barbara. Fortunately, I was kicked out of prison after a little more than a year because of international protest. But still, over a year was a… it’s still a long time for a swim.

Another case that went up to the Supreme Court involves a free speech case. This is an interesting one on military bases. It was 1981. Again, at Hickam Air Force Base. Remember, Hickam was where the blood pouring was in ’72 on the files.

In 1981, Armed Forces Day, so that was May 20th of 1981, Hickam was going to have an open house event there and inviting the members of the public to come to their open house. 50,000 people attended that event. Seven or nine of us decided we’re going to go to the open house. And we’ll break into small groups and hand out leaflets as people are lining up to visit the warplanes.

So, we go on the base, waved on just like everybody else. And within a few minutes of us trying to hand out leaflets, we’re all handcuffed and taken into custody and kept for the whole day of the open house. Released about 5:00 PM that day. The military said, “Well, you can’t be leafleting here.” We said, “It’s an open house. The public’s invited. Free speech should apply.” “No, no, no. It’s our event.”

Anyway, about two months later, a friend drives into our farm and said, “Hey, it’s on the radio that there’s a warrant out for your arrest. They’re going to prosecute you for leafleting at that Armed Forces Day event. The charge was violating a “ban and bar” letter that was issued to me in 1972 for that anti-Vietnam War protest.

Now this is interesting. The “ban and bar” letter, I think banned me from about 40 or 50 installations, some of them I’d never even heard of or never were on. I think it included Wake Island or Midway Island. But I was given a “ban and bar” letter. Now most “ban and bar” letters are in effect for just a year, but the military claim I’m a lifer. Mine’s good for life.

Anyway, I was found guilty. And the ACLU in this case, they handled the case on appeal. My conviction was overturned at the Ninth Circuit Court this time. They said the only reason you even knew Albertini, out of one of 50,000 people, had a “ban and bar” letter was because he was exercising free speech rights at an open house event. Ninth Circuit said to the military that, “You, in effect, turned that portion of the base into a public fairgrounds for the day where free speech rights will have to apply. And Albertini didn’t go beyond the confines of that public area, so he had the right to be there to exercise free speech. So again, a victory. Conviction overturned.

And the military appealed that to the Supreme Court, and it took several years. So, that was ’81. I think it was ’85 when the Supreme Court, again, reversed and upheld my conviction, and basically giving the military carte blanche power to issue these “ban and bar” letters to anybody, whoever they want, for whatever reasons, to be kept in effect for as long as they want, and even to be used at basic public events where the public’s invited onto the base to suppress free speech.

Matthew Breems:

Jim Albertini:

And then the issue I would focus on here, the biggest military installation in Hawaii is called the Pōhakuloa Military Training Area. It’s 133,000-acre live fire area for Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines. And they’ve used all kind of weapons up there since the ’40s, including depleted uranium weapons.

And this DU, it’s a metal. And when it’s hit with high explosive, it burns and turns the metal into DU oxide particles, these tiny dust particles that can be carried all over the island by the winds. And they’re very serious cancer causing substances. We’ve documented not only various high explosive type weapons, but chemical, biological weapons have been used here on this island, including Sarin nerve gas tested here.

So, the military has done an awful lot here under the cover of secrecy. We want to shut that base down, that Pōhakuloa training area. We want to force the military to clean up the island, because they don’t clean up after themselves. One of the things we research, our organization here, I’ve documented 57 present or former military sites on this island that are really toxic sites. Former bombing ranges, some of the ones where they use that chemical, biological weapon site. And the military just walks away from these sites and doesn’t do anything.

Matthew Breems:

Jim Albertini:

Matthew Breems:

The post Podcast (VN-E46): “Arrested dozens of times, two years in prison” – Jim Albertini appeared first on Courage to Resist.

by Courage to Resist

Francesco Da Vinci is a lifetime advocate of peace, nonviolence, and social justice. From his first action as a Conscientious Objector to the Vietnam War draft, he’s consistently–and with relentless optimism–responded to the call of conscience. He introduces us to his biography, I Refuse to Kill: My Path to Nonviolent Action in the 1960s (www.irefusetokill.com) and inspires others to take action.

“Well, it’s scary. I had never participated in a march, I’d never taken any really public stand. It was all philosophical. So I was a bystander all the way. And then slowly, I became politicized. I felt that I had to take a stand.

“I think we have to face the reality of what Eisenhower warned us against about the military industrial complex. There are people benefiting from these wars at the expense of we, the people. And I think it’s time to stop the blank checks for military systems that have constant cost overruns.”

This Courage to Resist podcast was produced in collaboration with the Vietnam Full Disclosure effort of Veterans For Peace — “Towards an honest commemoration of the American war in Vietnam.” We mark about 50 years of GI resistance, in and out of uniform, for many of the courageous individuals featured. Interview and edit by Matthew Breems. Production assistance by Stephanie Atkinson. Jeff Paterson, Executive Producer.

“I want your listeners to…not to be overwhelmed by the system. It’s like we can all do something in our microcosm….we showed that what people can do, we showed the power of nonviolence, the power of the individual to stand up to these systems and realize there’s more people out there that want to change than we realize, it’s a ripple effect.”

We need to raise at least $15,000 to produce this two-year-long series of 50+ interviews so that this history is not lost!

Francesco Da Vinci:

Matthew Breems:

His convictions against war and violence culminated in him facing prison time for refusing to be drafted. Since that era, he has continued to be an activist, speaker, author, photographer, and journalist. Well, Francesco, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the podcast today and to share your story of activism. We are very excited to hear it and we’ve been waiting a long time to get you on here. So thank you for taking the time.

Francesco Da Vinci:

Matthew Breems:

Francesco Da Vinci:

Matthew Breems:

Francesco Da Vinci:

Matthew Breems:

Francesco Da Vinci:

But eventually, I developed more confidence and that began the process of me getting closer and closer to taking a stand as a conscientious objector. What you do if you’re a student, you have that deferment, you have the luxury of a deferment and a lot of people stall with that deferment. But when you apply as a conscientious objector, in effect, you’re tearing up your student deferment at the risk of prison. So a lot of people in the public are confused about conscientious objection, in their mind, they associate it with the easy way out or faking your way out of the draft. It’s just the opposite. As a CO, you face the draft and you risk prison.

Matthew Breems:

Francesco Da Vinci:

Matthew Breems:

Francesco Da Vinci:

Matthew Breems:

Francesco Da Vinci:

And it’s very hard to get your beliefs across. You’re talking to people that are of a complete, different generation. And usually they’ve served in war, they’re pro war in Virginia, certainly. So another complication on my part was I didn’t belong to any traditional organized religion. That made it that much difficult because my draft board openly said they were Christian. It was really my application was outside the box by saying it’s a personal set of ethics based on the principles of nonviolence. That was totally bizarre to them. So that’s the process. And then you get letters of reference, letters of support from people that know you, their job, really of a draft board, is to see that you’re sincere. That’s their job, they’re not supposed to agree with you. That shouldn’t matter.

But in reality, political reality was when I went in for my face to face interview later on appeal of their rejections of my claim, I saw in five minutes that they didn’t care if I was sincere. And that happens with a lot of draft boards and especially for minorities, I mean, at that time–talking in the ’60s–vast majority of draft boards were all white and that was a factor we have to face of the racism in America. So in my case, it was prejudice against that I didn’t belong to an organized religion. My parents would say, my dad, he would say, “You have an Italian last name. Why don’t you temporarily become a Catholic?”

My chances would be better, but I said, “I didn’t want to do that”. And I thought it was ironic to use religion to get out of the draft too. When I won my case in 1971, the same year that Muhammad Ali won his case. This was after three years on appeal. That was the year that it opened up to personal beliefs, personal set of ethics, 1971. And my case helped set a precedent.

Matthew Breems:

Francesco Da Vinci:

Matthew Breems:

Francesco Da Vinci:

So I had one last appeal and my attorney said, my draft lawyer said that, “Because you’re so active in the peace movement, they’re going to make an example out of you. And I think it’s virtually certain, you’re going to get a five year prison term the maximum,” which is what Muhhamad Ali faced. And so at the last moment, the state director of Selective Service overturned in my favor, he got it. And he went against his own system to do it. And I’d like to pay tribute to him by mentioning his name he’s passed away. But his name was Ernest Fears, Jr.

Matthew Breems:

Francesco Da Vinci:

Matthew Breems:

Francesco Da Vinci:

And I said, “Well, they’re on the way, but they don’t know it yet.” It was a leap of faith. I just thought it’s going to attract. And sure enough, it grew to over 250 people. They came from over the country to join that group. And Joan Baez supported it, the folk singer, and she raised the money in two benefit concerts for us to conduct our peace activities, our campaigns. I was already working with Caesar Chavez and the farm workers. And then it grew to the draft project out of the farm workers project. Everybody was a volunteer at Nonviolent Action and we’d leaflet let every induction call in San Diego, every single one for one year. And we’d give them leaflets that have the numbers of draft lawyers who would counsel them for free on their rights because the vast majority were going on…they had no idea what their rights were, especially minorities. So we gave them that information and it saved, it ended up saving a lot of lives.

Matthew Breems:

Francesco Da Vinci:

And the majority of the military men voted that the carrier should stay home and not perpetuate the bombing. So it made it ABC and CBS national news. And it was a real wake up call. Got together with my peace group. And we sent letters to Congress. Senator McGovern was so moved by what we were doing, that he intervened on behalf of our peace group. And he spread the message through the halls of Congress. And he contacted the Secretary of Defense, Melvin Laird and President Nixon. And our campaign reached the White House. And he said, “They’ve got a great valid point here. You’re not winding down the war and you have to be accountable to the people of America.”

I think we have to face the reality of what Eisenhower warned us against about the military industrial complex. There are people benefiting from these wars at the expense of we, the people. And I think it’s time to stop the blank checks for military systems that have constant cost overruns. And you can imagine with the billions that lead to trillions of dollars for weapons of war, what we could have done and what we could do now with just some of that, those resources for people needs.

Matthew Breems:

Francesco Da Vinci:

Matthew Breems:

Francesco Da Vinci:

Matthew Breems:

Francesco Da Vinci:

So that was the purpose of the book. And another important contribution. I think the book makes is that it honors conscientious objectors. It’s long overdue, conscientious objectors have taken a brave stand. They’ve been slandered, if you look at the history of COs, they’ve been tortured, they were shackled, they were sent to the worst prisons that we had, like Alcatraz and Leavenworth, and they were even killed. So this book honors them and it’s dedicated to COs throughout history.

Matthew Breems:

Francesco Da Vinci:

Matthew Breems:

Francesco Da Vinci:

Matthew Breems:

Francesco Da Vinci:

Women’s rights, gay rights, et cetera, all these things we’re still faced with today. The two main things like our invasions, whether it’s Afghanistan or Vietnam…Is the Congress doing its job? And are we demanding that the Congress do its job? The Vietnam War went a span of 10 years. What did we learn if we go into Afghanistan and double the time for 20 years? Let’s recognize the need to transform our culture to a non-violent culture. So it starts one person at a time and adds up. Gandhi once said, “I won’t try to convert the whole of society to my point of view. I’ll straight away make a beginning with myself.”

Matthew Breems:

The post Podcast (VN-E45): “It was a leap of faith” – Francesco Da Vinci appeared first on Courage to Resist.

by Courage to Resist

“When I was really depressed, my boyfriend convinced me to go into therapy…You can’t be in therapy in the military…I admitted that I was so upset about my role in uniform that I was seeing a counselor and in the past I’d hurt myself…[the investigating officer] wanted to take disciplinary action against me because my ‘crime’ of being depressed by war.”

This Courage to Resist podcast was recorded and edited by Matthew Breems. Production assistance, Stephanie Atkinson. Executive Producer, Jeff Paterson.

Breaking Cadence: One Woman’s War Against the War, 2nd Edition available from Amazon

We need to raise at least $15,000 to produce this two-year-long series of 50+ interviews so that this history is not lost!

Rosa del Duca:

Matthew Breems:

Today on the podcast, Rosa del Duca. In her award-winning memoir, Breaking Cadence: One Woman’s War Against the War, Rosa recounts her experience in the Army National Guard during the second Iraq conflict. Coming to believe that the US presence in the conflict was illegal and unjust, Rosa filed to become a conscientious objector when she was placed on active duty for deployment. Del Duca also hosts a podcast focused on conscientious objection called Breaking Cadence: Insights From a Modern Day Conscientious Objector.

Matthew Breems:

Rosa del Duca:

My mom’s second marriage went south. He declared bankruptcy in the middle of it because he had racked up a credit card debt and so my mom had had to declare bankruptcy because she didn’t have the money, she’s just a teacher. She had warned me, she was checking in, like, “Hey, do you want to go to college? Because if you do, just know I can’t help you pay for anything, not even books.” That was a huge worry of mine. “How the heck am I going to pay for college?” I had all these warped ideas of money and debt. We grew up pretty poor and my mom was on and off welfare. I thought, “Wow, I’m not super into the military,” and don’t have anyone in my family who is military, except for I think my grandpa was a civil engineer and helped build bridges during World War II. But it wasn’t something I was exposed to growing up really at all.

Matthew Breems:

Rosa del Duca:

Matthew Breems:

Rosa del Duca:

Matthew Breems:

Rosa del Duca:

Matthew Breems:

Rosa del Duca:

I wanted to be in some kind of public affairs job in the military. I knew they existed and my recruiter said, “Oh yeah, you can transfer into one of those at any time. You just need to join as a fueler first, because this is what we have a slot for right now.” I drilled with my unit. I graduated high school, I got into the University of Montana in Missoula, was excited to go. A couple weeks into my freshman year, 9/11 happened. At that point, I was just so naive. I thought, “Oh my God, the New York National Guard has a huge mess to clean up.” That’s how absolutely naive I was, even though I was studying journalism. That’s the beginning of the story.

Matthew Breems:

Rosa del Duca:

It was really the run up to the Iraq War that really disturbed me, because I was paying attention and I didn’t understand this fever pitch rush to war over there and how it was connected. I saw pretty clearly what was going on, is this rigorous campaign of misinformation and misleading the public and repeating false facts enough that the public perception was that they were facts. The way that the Bush administration was linking Iraq and Saddam Hussein to weapons of mass destruction that didn’t exist and the weapons inspectors couldn’t find them, and then they were kicked out before they could investigate further, and trying to tie the 9/11 attacks to them, saying that they were partially funded by Saddam Hussein, which also was based on false intelligence and just a lie. Having signed a six-year contract with the military, I thought there was absolutely nothing I could do. I just needed to hunker down and fulfill my contract and then get out.

Matthew Breems:

Rosa del Duca:

It was dicey for everyone, but I was in this brand new little construction unit out at Camp Roberts and the unit only had maybe 10 members. It seemed like the pressure was off me because they said we can’t get called up until our unit is full, and it was really hard at that time to add new people because everyone was getting called up. Then I got called up. My sergeant called me and said that I had been put on a mobilization list and I was supposed to deploy with a unit out of Louisiana to Operation Iraqi Freedom. It was an 18-month deployment.

Yeah, so what happened is so many National Guard units were called up that units across the country were cherry picking whatever MOSs they still needed to get to full capacity to deploy. That’s why, yeah, I was battle rostered with this unit out of Louisiana, total strangers clearly, because I don’t live in Louisiana.

Matthew Breems:

Rosa del Duca:

Amy Goodman’s Democracy Now!, they offered campus stations I think a year for free. I was exposed to journalism from this larger picture of what was going on. The more I heard, the more I was just horrified by it and I didn’t want anything to do with it. But then again, there’s this contract that I had signed. What the heck was I going to do, go AWOL? I could go AWOL and run away to Canada, but then what, I’m just going to live in Canada for the rest of my life as a turncoat traitor person?

Maybe a week after I’d gotten called up and the next week I was due to go to this mobilization processing or whatever, and I get a call from the ROTC recruiter at Cal Poly. He had somehow heard that I got called up and he was calling me because he wanted to recruit me into ROTC. At first, I was confused. I was like, “Well, I can’t join ROTC, I’m called up.” He’s like, “No, no, they’re going to want you. We’re really hurting for officers right now. If you join ROTC, you can delay this deployment because you’ll have to be trained as an officer first. Then if you do get called up down the road in a couple years, you’ll have your degree, you’ll be an officer. You just have to sign a three-year contract extension.”

Matthew Breems:

Rosa del Duca:

But I didn’t know how the army was defining it. I knew that if I checked that I would get in trouble, there’s probably some proof I had to give. I don’t know. I had no idea.

Matthew Breems:

Rosa del Duca:

I had just signed this contract with ROTC that I saw as a gift horse. I was like, “I’ve been given this gift. I don’t have to ship out in a month to fight in this war. I just made this really serious commitment to ROTC. I can’t start a conscientious objector application now. I’m going to look like a total idiot and traitor. It’s time to grow up. Own your responsibilities, do what you said you would do, suck it up.”

Matthew Breems:

Rosa del Duca:

But yeah, he sent me this huge long packet to go through it and start thinking about my answers to all these really important questions. You have to prove that your beliefs changed after you signed your contract up until now. I thought about who I was going to ask to write letters of support and all of this stuff. When I was assigned an investigating officer, his witch hunt was focused on that. When I was really depressed, my boyfriend convinced me to go into therapy because you could do a quarter of it for free. I had had a mild history of being a cutter, cutting my arms when I was depressed, so I started seeing a therapist. You can’t be in therapy in the military.

Matthew Breems:

Rosa del Duca:

Matthew Breems:

Rosa del Duca:

I moved to the Bay Area. When I moved, I asked where I should drill now that I had moved and would be in a different unit and no one answered me, so kind of I was AWOL. I wasn’t going to beat down doors asking them where I should drill when I didn’t want to be in uniform at all. I half expected the military police to come knocking on my door at some point. One day I went to the post office and there was a slip in my box that said there was something too big, so I went to the window and they gave me this big packet. It was from Army and I nearly had a heart attack, because I was like, “Oh, this is it. This is where I’m going to be activated or gone after, or who knows what.”

But I opened the packet and it was just all of my records, all these medical records and copies of my paperwork, and on one of the pages said something that I had been discharged into the inactive ready reserve. It had on there type of discharge, “Honorable”, and it had my ETS date as six years to the day after I joined up. I still don’t know what the heck happened. I don’t know what happened to my three-year contract extension, I don’t know why they discharged me when they did. I’m like a military ghost. I don’t have a DD214, which is the paper that everyone gets when they get discharged.

Matthew Breems:

Rosa del Duca:

I went back to the Bay Area, and the GI Rights Hotline, they connected me with a lawyer in the area, Steven Collier, who actually represented the first CO of the Iraq War, Stephen Funk. He took my case pro bono. He said, “Well, there’s one big mistake they made when they denied you. They didn’t say why, and that is illegal. We’re going to file a writ of habeas corpus proceeding in federal court if they come after you, because it’s a very old writ and it’s against the unlawful detainment of anyone.” That was my last card to play. I was like, “Well, if they come after me, I’ve got Steven Collier ready to sue the federal government on my behalf. This is just wild!” But they didn’t come after me and then I got that packet in the mail and I was not going to go chasing after them asking questions, like, “Yeah, but why did you let me out? Don’t you remember that I signed a contract extension?” I tried to move on.

Matthew Breems:

Rosa del Duca:

I didn’t even want to write about it for a while, but I got into an MFA program for creative writing. My second year in there, there was a “Craft of Nonfiction” class and so I started writing some Army stuff. My professor was like, “You need to work on this every day. This is good.” It turned out that that was something really cathartic and good for me, and in the process of writing the book and rewriting it and workshopping it and revising it and sending it out to potential publishers, I finally was able to work through things in a more healthy way and process it and move past it. It was all, I guess, part of the healing part of it. Now I’m not ashamed to promote what I did and the book. I’m trying to go into schools with my little “Truth in Recruitment” group and just inform teens of some of the realities that recruiters aren’t going to tell you when you join the military.

Matthew Breems:

Rosa del Duca:

Matthew Breems:

Rosa del Duca:

Matthew Breems:

Rosa del Duca:

Matthew Breems:

The post Podcast: “What? Yes. That term..I’m a conscientious objector!” – Rosa del Duca appeared first on Courage to Resist.

by Courage to Resist

Former Sergeant Kevin Benderman shares his experiences in Iraq, the inconsistencies of the US mission in the Middle East, and his attempts to reconcile his military career with his clearly defined development as a conscientious objector. In his attempt to follow the letter of the law of the UCMJ, Kevin served 15 months in prison for his actions, a punitive move by the Army to make an example of him to other soldiers.

“So you can imagine the disconnect that I had, with the image of what I thought I was, and what I was being told to do. It threw me for a complete loop.”

“I told them, ‘I’m not going back over there, but I’m going to do it this way.’ They couldn’t stand it, because I was trying to follow the Army regulations to make sure I did it all right. Everything I did was right.”

This Courage to Resist podcast was recorded and edited by Matthew Breems. Production assistance, Stephanie Atkinson. Executive Producer, Jeff Paterson.

“We were being … told to shoot children, all based on a bunch of lies. So there was no way in any kind of good conscience that I could go continue to take part in that.”

We need to raise at least $15,000 to produce this two-year-long series of 50+ interviews so that this history is not lost!

Kevin Benderman:

Matthew Breems:

This episode features a guest, the 30 years of current US military intervention in the Middle East. Army veteran Kevin Benderman is the guest today. Kevin was a longtime service man before his deployment to Iraq in 2003. His experiences there quickly led him to a place where he could no longer participate in that senseless combat.

Upon returning to the US, Kevin filed to become a conscientious objector. Refusing to be deployed to Iraq a second time, the army court-martialed Kevin, and eventually sentenced him to 15 months in prison.

Kevin, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the podcast with us today. What did it look like for you growing up, before you entered the military? What were some of your thoughts, when you decided to sign up for the military, in your case?

Kevin Benderman:

Matthew Breems:

Kevin Benderman:

Matthew Breems:

Kevin Benderman:

My first term of enlistment was the 91 Romeo, which is like a food inspection specialist. It’s like a USDA food inspector that makes sure the food is safe to eat, and all that kind of thing. It was a pretty normal, mundane job to have in the Army.

It was pretty much uneventful until the Persian Gulf war broke out. Some of the people that were in my unit were deployed over there, and they had us all standing in line, waiting, were to be deployed.

But by the time my number was ready to come up, it was over with. I mean, it only lasted a couple months, anyway.

Matthew Breems:

Kevin Benderman:

At that time, I thought that I was, but it never came to pass. So I just ETS’d out of the Army, and went back to civilian life for about 10 years.

Matthew Breems:

Kevin Benderman:

Matthew Breems:

Kevin Benderman:

I was attending what they call PLDC, which is Primary Leadership Development Class. This is in 2000 and early 2002. I was being told then, “Well, get ready to deploy to Iraq, get ready to deploy to Iraq.”

They told us this for about a year before we actually deployed. Every month or so, it would be, “You’re not going to be here next month, you’re not going to be here next month.” So there was all this uncertainty.

We were originally going to go to Turkey, in October or November, and then get everything prepared, and then move south into the country of Iraq. Turkey and the US couldn’t reach an agreement. So we had to wait to be deployed, and went through Kuwait.

Matthew Breems:

Kevin Benderman:

I was like, “Well, this is a huge waste of time. And then, why are we guarding an oil field, when we’re supposed to be over here protecting these people?” That’s some of the thoughts that I had, while we were sitting there for three weeks.

Matthew Breems:

Kevin Benderman:

One of the biggest things that started changing the way I looked at all what we were doing over there is when we were driving along some highway over there. I don’t know the number of it, can’t remember.

But we saw this woman standing on the side of the road with a young girl, and the young girl’s arm was burned. You could tell it was black. I mean, third degree, worse than that.

She was waving at us to, I don’t know, maybe get some assistance some way, and we just drove on past. I left her standing there with that little girl.

Later on, I had a chance to ask my captain, why we didn’t stop and at least try to give her some basic first aid, and get her some help some way.

And he’s like, “Well, that’s not our mission here,” just callous. But that same commander, later on in my deployment, tells me to shoot small children, because they were climbing up on a little brick wall around the compound that we had taken over and was using for a company command headquarters.

That was one of the big things that turned me against what we were doing over there is, they told me, and here I was, thinking, “I’m a professional soldier going to follow all the rules, and do what’s right, and they’re out there telling me to shoot unarmed children.”

So you can imagine the disconnect that I had, with the image of what I thought I was, and what I was being told to do. It threw me for a complete loop. Well, that never entered my head at any time. But if I was going to be a professional soldier and a warrior, I would never shoot children.

I guess that’s one of the biggest things that led me to say, “You know what? This is all a bunch of bullshit, what they’re telling us to do over here.”

Another part of it was, every time we went somewhere, you know how everyone was always complaining about the International Atomic Agency inspectors being denied entry? Well, we weren’t then.

We went everywhere, wherever we wanted to go, whenever we wanted to go. Every time we thought we’d found something that was a chemical or biological weapon, we had a team, a special NBC team, that’s Nuclear, Biological and Chemical, and they would come up and test whatever it was we came across, and it would just turn out to be some mundane, every day diesel fuel, or bug spray, nothing concentrated for warfare, but just normal every day items.

Every time we went somewhere, and it was a negative test for chemical or biological weapons on that, that was another thing that started me down the road, “Well, everything they told us about this whole endeavor is just straight up bullshit.”

Matthew Breems:

Kevin Benderman:

I don’t know where they went after that. I mean, they got loaded into trucks, and I had no idea where they went, after we handed them over to the transporters.

I’m 6’2″, and currently weigh about 235 pounds, and I’m like, “Why am I over here, harassing these grandparents in their beds?” I’m like, “Why am I a big combat American soldier over here, harassing 90-pound grandma on her bed at 3:00 a.m.? I mean, what the hell has that got to do with American freedom?”

I found this out later, that people were just turning people in to get the money, on people they didn’t like, or had a argument with. That was just crazy. They just went and took people on unverified reports, and come to find out we’d been paying the people to give them the report anyway.

With a lot of the people in that country in dire financial straits, I’m sure some of them stooped to making up complete lies about their neighbors, just get them in trouble, and make a little money.

Matthew Breems:

Kevin Benderman:

Matthew Breems:

Kevin Benderman:

But after I got to my new unit, and started just setting down and had some quiet time, the more I thought about it. We were getting ready, going to NTC, going to field training exercises, and getting ready for another deployment into Iraq.

At that time, I’d started being set in concrete in my mind, that this is nothing that I want to be part of anymore. Because it’s all based on a bunch of lies.

They’re asking me to do things I’d never thought I’d be ordered to do as a soldier in the United States Army. And none of those chemical weapons or biological weapons…We never found any.

It was all an accumulation of all that information, that I had time to sit in there and stew, I guess you could say, till it gelled into my conviction, that there was no way they were going to send me back to that country, to harass people that had done nothing to us.

That country was not involved in 9/11. There was no reason for us to go into Iraq whatsoever, period. So that compounded.

We were being–harassing the population, being told to shoot children, all based on a bunch of lies. So there was no way in any kind of good conscience that I could go continue to take part in that.

Matthew Breems:

Kevin Benderman:

That’s the path that I chose to take, and that was met with full-on resistance. I got some information on what would be the best way to do this. So I started following the regulations, and attempting to do it the right way.

In the meantime, all my gear was packed, I had my vehicle prepped, I showed up to work every day. I went and did the morning physical training, went back to work, didn’t just run from it, or anything.

I told them, “I’m not going back over there, but I’m going to do it this way.” They couldn’t stand it, because I was trying to follow the Army regulations to make sure I did it all right. Everything I did was right.

I mean, I had it signed off on by one of the chaplains, and he agreed with me. But once I took all that back to the chain of command that I was in, the 27 Infantry, they just rubber stamped everything on there, Denied, Denied, Denied.

It went from my basic rear detachment company commander all the way up to the rear detachment post commander. And they just rubber stamped it all the way up. I knew I was going to be in for a tough fight, with trying to do it that way.

Matthew Breems:

Kevin Benderman:

They were upset, that they perceived me to be a more intelligent enlisted person than they’re used to dealing with. So that kind of upset them, and they didn’t want anybody else getting any ideas, so they were going to put me out there as a prime example, to deter anyone else from trying to follow that path.

Matthew Breems:

Kevin Benderman:

Anyway, I’m standing there listening to this, and I’d already gave them my CO packet. The battalion commander and lieutenant colonel come to me, and said, “Sergeant Benderman, you need to go see the Command Sergeant Major at 1500 this afternoon.” “Roger, sir. What is this about?” He said, “You will be discussing this, CO packet with him.”

So I go home for about an hour, and then I get my wife, and we go back up there. The meeting starts, and we stayed there for about an hour. At the end of this meeting, he said, “Sergeant Benderman, what you need to do is go home, finish working on your conscientious objector packet, and turn it into the Rear Detachment Officer, commanding officer, Monday morning.”

“Roger, Sergeant Major, that’s what you want me to do?” “Yes, Sergeant.” I asked him two more times, to verify that’s what he wanted me to do, and he answered in the affirmative all three times. So I go back home.

I come in Monday morning, and report to the rear detachment commanding officer, hand in my paperwork, and then he told me to sit there, and wait for a minute. And when they came back out, they had charged me with desertion, disrespecting a superior, non-commissioned officer, dereliction of duty, and grand larceny, because they said I stole money from the Army.

Matthew Breems:

Kevin Benderman:

I’m like, “I’m a half mile away from post. If I was such a deserter, why didn’t you send the MPs over to my house?” They could have got there in about two minutes, and they could arrested me, because that’s where I was the whole weekend, and reported in.

At the time, I was told to report in on Monday morning. I went in, and was doing the right thing, and they couldn’t stand it.

Matthew Breems:

Kevin Benderman:

“Well, yes. I’ll take that. That’s what I want, anyway.” When the rear detachment commander heard that, he immediately left the courtroom, and got on the phone, and called the garrison commander.

That’s when they put their little plan into motion, that they weren’t going to let her just give me a general discharge, and let me go my merry way. I was going to be punished.

The total for the offenses they were charging me with was seven years, and they wanted to see me sitting in prison for seven years. But the best they got out of it was 15 months, and I was convicted of missing movement by design.

Matthew Breems:

Kevin Benderman:

I don’t want to get too far off for our point, but this whole thing where it blew up to where I was known worldwide, and people were praising me, I thought that was surreal, because I’m just an old country boy from Alabama.

I mean, why are all these people in the world praising me? But I guess I affected them in a way that was positive for them, or they just agreed with what I had to say.

Matthew Breems:

Kevin Benderman:

I’m like, “Look, I don’t want to be no figurehead leader.” I said, “I’ll walk with you, but I don’t want to walk in front of you, and I don’t want to walk behind you. I will walk with you.” But nobody wanted that. They wanted, I mean, they needed to have somebody to look to.

Matthew Breems:

Kevin Benderman:

But then they brought in Camilo Mejia and Joshua Casteel. They brought them in, and I think it was a very well put together documentary, called “Soldiers of Conscience”, and they all had their story to tell with mine, and I think it reached a lot of people.

Matthew Breems:

Kevin Benderman:

I just wish that we would become more objective, and stop being so militaristic in this country. That seems to be the only thing that is the criteria to make you a good American were, “Hurrah, let’s go to war.”

Most of the people in this country had no idea what it was like. I just think we need to move away from being such a militaristic society.

Matthew Breems:

Kevin Benderman:

Matthew Breems:

The post Podcast: “Why are we guarding an oil field?” – Kevin Benderman appeared first on Courage to Resist.

by Courage to Resist

Michael Rasmussen came to recognize his opposition to war through recommended reading of the “Meditations” of Marcus Aurelius. He grew from being a kid who loved to “play Army” to become a Marine Corps officer and pilot. He soon found his ambition for a successful flight career competing with his conscience. Over time, asking himself philosophical questions revealed the internal conflict about the decision he would ultimately have to resolve.

“We spend so much time saying this one thing is going to fix everything. It’s not…and it was just this crashing moment of really having to face the doubts that had been lurking inside of me the whole time…I always…It’s clear in hindsight that this little nugget was inside of me all along, and I was just ignoring it. I was like, “No, no, no, no, no”.”

This Courage to Resist podcast was recorded and edited by Matthew Breems. Production assistance, Stephanie Atkinson. Executive Producer, Jeff Paterson.

“I couldn’t tell you what triggered it that morning, but I do remember the pivotal moment of like, “I can’t do this. Something is going to happen. I don’t know what I’m going to do, but this is just not going to work for the next six or seven years”…It was like knowing that you’re going to work, but not just because you don’t like the job, but you’re doing something really bad every day.”

We need to raise at least $15,000 to produce this two-year-long series of 50+ interviews so that this history is not lost!

Michael Rasmussen:

Matthew Breems:

Former Marine pilot Michael Rasmussen is our guest today. Like many, Michael saw the military as a way to help him fulfill his dream of becoming a pilot. But as his training progressed, so did his understanding of the military’s policies and purposes. His journey of insight and reflection brought him to a place where he could no longer indiscriminately kill another human. Michael filed to become a conscientious objector in Spring of 2017.

Michael, welcome to the podcast. We are honored to have your story on the podcast today and to hear stories from more current conscientious objectors. All of our guests, we want to get some history on who you are. What were your motivations for joining the military when you did?

Michael Rasmussen:

As far as joining the military, I always described it as I went through that phase as a kid, playing Army and stuff like that, and I just never really left that phase. I remember playing with Army men and stuff when I was 10, 12, and then it just continued until I was 13, 14, 15. And then the other part of it was when I was a child, we moved around a lot for my dad’s job. He wasn’t in the military, but we moved around a lot.

And so, we flew often. We used to live overseas, and we’d fly back to the U.S. every summer. And this is pre 9/11, and so you could go up to the cockpit. And I used to love going up in the cockpit. I used to love flying, loved going to fly. And so, when I was a kid, I was wanting to say I was going to be a pilot. And so, the intersection was I want to be a pilot. I’m still in this phase of playing Army and all that stuff.

And then I mentioned to a friend, I think it was on a field trip. I still remember actually it was on a field trip for school. And I mentioned that I wanted to join the Air Force at the time. So, another student who was on that trip got me involved in what’s called Civil Air Patrol, which is like a Junior ROTC. It’s called the Air Force Auxiliary, but it’s like Junior ROTC. Boy Scouts, but military-ish for high school students. And then the rest is sort of history. After that, the brainwashing happens at an extreme level and I’d drink in the Kool-Aid for what I wanted to do.

But I did think about it also on sort of a deeper level. So, at the surface level, it was I want to fly. And then I decided to join the Marines because I was always raised in the family of you’re going to do your best at everything you do. And so, if you’re going to join the military, then obviously you’re going to join the Marines because they’re the best. And so, I did feel that story that we’re told about the American dream, and how much America can provide.

And it did in a literal sense take the past generations of my family that lived in poverty, which is true on both sides, to the point where we’re definitely weren’t living in poverty, living very comfortably. There was no question that my siblings and I would go to college and do well and all of these things. And so I wanted to, I guess, protect that or honor that is the, I think, propaganda that we’re sold, especially when you’re a teenager.

Matthew Breems:

Michael Rasmussen:

Matthew Breems:

Michael Rasmussen:

And my early experiences there were very positive. You’re surrounded a group of like-minded people. They were motivated in the same ways, going after the same thing. And you’re going through NROTC together as a group. You’re getting up three or four days a week. I remember multiple times where we’d be getting up to go to PT first thing in the morning, and there’ll be other students just getting home from a night out of partying. And so that builds a certain amount of camaraderie. And these people are still some of my best friends. And so my experiences were mostly positive. There were I think little twinges or insights of, I don’t even want to use the word “doubt”, but there was some stuff that I had trouble explaining to others and to myself, and so I just ignored it.

Matthew Breems:

Michael Rasmussen:

Well, you go to officer candidate school during the summer between your junior and senior year, and then you go after graduation to the basic school. And then after the basic school, most Marines are assigned to their MOS for whatever job they’ll do. But you can also get a flight contract, which is what I got and what most people try to get during… So, I got that during my sophomore year of college.

And so, the good part is during TBS, you’re not competing for different slots in different jobs. You’re not competing for your spot to go to flight school. So, it guarantees you that you’ll go to flight school, but it also is your contract. So, then I had an eight-year contract from when I got winged, which is several years after graduation. And so, I say that only to emphasize the number of contracts that it was acceptable for me to sign at such a young age. Right? So, at 19, I was a sophomore in college. At 19, I had signed a contract that would, in theory, if I hadn’t left the military, take me all the way through to when I was 32 or 33 years old.

Matthew Breems:

Michael Rasmussen:

Matthew Breems:

Michael Rasmussen:

And it’s this great read because it was so many thoughts that I had had myself. There was a lot that I think that I connected with and that I read about. And it made me, I think, really start to read other similar books and to reflect on my own impact on myself, but then also on the people around me. He writes a lot about interactions and stuff like that.

Matthew Breems:

Michael Rasmussen:

Matthew Breems:

Michael Rasmussen:

I don’t think at that point I had seriously thought of leaving the military, because at that point my flight contract hadn’t started. So, in theory, I still could have dropped out of flight school and just finished my much shorter contract. But yeah, that dream of flying was still, I think, pulling me on. And that’s not even the sort of patriotic part of it. That’s just the, I’m so close to my childhood dream. In fact, I’m in the midst of achieving it. I’m flying every day. I’m flying these cool, powerful military aircraft. And so, I said, I’m not thrilled with this whole military thing, but I’m going to just continue. I’m going to fly C-130s, and then I’m sure it’s going to be fine. Once I get to the fleet, everything is going to be okay.

Matthew Breems:

Michael Rasmussen:

And so, part of it was this childhood dream thing, but then the main part was just my feelings about the military in general. Which in hindsight, I always… It’s clear in hindsight that this little nugget was inside of me all along, and I was just ignoring it. I was like, “No, no, no, no, no”. And then I got there and I was like, “Oh shit. Now I have to face this head on”. And so I did.

And so, I was doing my flying and everything and do missions or whatever. And I was starting to just think about my impact not in a general sense, but in a specific sense of what I was doing in the military. So, I started thinking like, “Okay, let’s really break this down on what the military is doing, and if they’re doing predominantly good or predominantly bad.”

And I would just create hypotheticals like, all right, in this situation, “Would you be comfortable killing someone, and would you be comfortable dying? Or better than yourself dying, would you be comfortable knowing that your friend or your family member or your parent or whatever died for XYZ cause or XYZ situation?” And the answer just kept coming up “No”. And I was just like, “Man, this is stupid, honestly.” This is what I said to myself. I was like, “You’re kidding yourself that you actually want to be doing this. When in actuality, sitting here by yourself in your living room, you would not do any of these things. There’s no situation that I would be comfortable killing someone”.

And so, ultimately it made me think anyone that the United States engages in conflict is ultimately no different than us. Not to say that there aren’t people that want to hurt us, but simply to say that I’m not willing to kill them or be killed on the will or the whim of politicians who think it’s okay to engage in organized war. I think the whole idea of a “just war” at all is a sham that we’re taught as part of this propaganda to support it.

Matthew Breems:

Michael Rasmussen:

Matthew Breems:

Michael Rasmussen:

You know, when you do something bad, and then you get the little pit in your stomach and you’re like, “Man, I shouldn’t have really done that. I shouldn’t have lied.” I don’t know. Or maybe you should have done something. “I should have held the door for that person. I should have offered to pay.” And you feel a little bad about it. It was like that but times a million. And I just knew. I was like, “Yeah, this is just not going to work.”

But also, I was really scared because I had no idea, “What am I going to do?” But I thought realistically what would happen is I would have to finish my time in Japan, and then I would basically volunteer for a desk job. Right? Because most pilots don’t want to go work behind a desk. And so, I figured, well, if I can get some desk job on the East Coast or whatever and just ride out my time, maybe that’ll be livable. Maybe that’ll be at least doable.

And so, then I went to work, and I was preparing to leave for a mission that day, and we’re flying. I think we’re going to Hawaii or Guam or something. And so, there was a bunch of pilots. And so, I recall it being a fine trip overall, except whenever we were stopping somewhere, I was doing more research into what I could do. And I remember when I stumbled upon the GI Help Hotline, which then directs you to the Center on Conscience & War in Washington DC. And it was right before we were taking off, it was like I got this one webpage to load when we were leaving Hawaii, I think. And then I downloaded the Marine Corps order, started reading it, and then the rest is history.

As soon as I got back, I recall I sent them the message and then started working on my package and everything, and I was eager to move it forward. But I’m so, so thankful for Maria Santinelli and everyone at the Center on Conscience & War, because I think if they hadn’t existed and I tried to navigate that myself, I don’t know what the outcome would have been. I think I definitely would have rushed into it without having all the information, without being fully prepared, with having all my statements good.

Matthew Breems:

Michael Rasmussen:

But anyway, so when I told my XO and CO, they were surprised, I think, because I had been performing well. It’s not like I had this slow deterioration. It was clear that there was something wrong. I think I had kept work at work and home at home and was dealing with it at home. But at work, I was still performing well and doing my job, and there was no indication, I think, that I was having an issue. So, they were surprised, but they were also extremely supportive.

Matthew Breems:

Michael Rasmussen:

I was not that worried about it, I think, when I read that phrase. And in my statement as part of my package, I said very openly that I’m an atheist, and I still am. But I knew that I had gone through this philosophical rigor. And I took them through in my statement from start to end about picking up and putting down different philosophical books and how they all can piece together a picture of the world. All I was proving to them was that I had done the due diligence in forming this new structure. It wasn’t a hurdle because I was just explaining this framework to them. I hesitate to applaud things the military does, but I guess I should say that I applaud them having that in the orders.

Matthew Breems:

Michael Rasmussen:

So it’s funny. I didn’t get the email first. They accidentally included the approval document in a different fax that was sent to someone else at the squadron that they knew, et cetera. So the bottom line is a friend called me first and told me about it, and then I got the formal notification email, which was obviously a huge, huge relief. And I didn’t really even know how to react at the time. And I just remember being relieved.

But it takes time, I think, to decompress from being in the military. When I got out, a friend advised me to take several months, at least, off. I guess maybe an analogy would be like you’re in a burning house and there’s a door out, but you’re still standing in the burning house. Right? And so, you still need to go through all this stuff to get out.

And so, I definitely didn’t suddenly relax. It felt like there was a weight off my shoulders to a certain extent, but it still didn’t feel real. I think until I got home and until I got my DD214, I still felt like they could just claw it back at any point, which maybe they probably could. And it took, I think, several months to really process that out. And honestly, I think actually years to… And it’s still a process that’s happening. And I say that because I still, they’ve been getting less frequent, but I still have dreams about being called back into the military. The realization I was having these recurring dreams that I thought were going to stop, but have now continued for several years, just shows the amount of stress that you can be under and that we put ourselves under in those types of situations.

Matthew Breems:

Michael Rasmussen:

Matthew Breems:

The post Podcast: Michael Rasmussen, Meditations of a Conscientious Objector appeared first on Courage to Resist.

by Courage to Resist

“I thought, well, I cannot be a part of what I know is going to be a horrific, horrific bloodbath in Iraq. And not that my resignation will make a bit of difference, but at least I won’t be a part of it. I won’t have that on my conscience. And so, I ended up resigning.”

This Courage to Resist podcast was recorded and edited by Matthew Breems. Production assistance by Stephanie Atkinson. Executive Producer: Jeff Paterson.

We need to raise at least $15,000 to produce this two-year-long series of 50+ interviews so that this history is not lost!

Ann Wright:

Matthew Breems:

Retired Army Colonel Ann Wright is our guest today. Ann served in the U.S. Army as well as a U.S. diplomat in numerous countries. In 2004, she was one of only three people in the State Department to resign in protest over the Bush administration’s invasion of Iraq. Since that time, Ann has written a book chronicling dissenters in the U.S. government. Ann went on to be a speaker and peace activist, visiting nations such as Iran, China, Russia, and most notably, North Korea.

Well, welcome, Ann, to the Courage to Resist podcast. You have a very long and distinguished career of activism, if you will. All of our guests, we like to get a little sense of who you are and what brought you to a place where you joined the U.S. military. So, why don’t you go ahead and give us a little bio on Ann Wright.

Ann Wright:

The Army recruiters came through the university, and this was during the Vietnam War in 1967, ’68. They had a college junior program. They said we can pay you your final year of college if you go to this three-week training thing. And if you like it, and then join up. And then my first question was, “Well, if I join up, can I get to Europe?” Because I desperately wanted to go traveling. And I didn’t want to go to Vietnam, but I wanted to go travel to Europe.

And the recruiter, and probably the only truthful recruiter I think I’ve ever run into, was yes, I think you probably can, because most of the guys are having to go from Europe out to Vietnam. And if you just want to go to Europe, we can probably get you an assignment in there. So, I thought, well, if they pay me my senior year of college if I join up. At that time, you only had to sign up for two years. And with the two years you got the GI Bill, you got all of this stuff, GI Bill for four years.

And I thought, “Well, I can wear a stupid little uniform, and I can march, and I can put up with a lot of crap.” So, I thought, “Well, I’ll just sign up right there”. So, I did, and that’s how I got involved with the Army. I wanted to get the hell out the state of Arkansas where I grew up. And like so many young people, it got me out of Arkansas, for sure.

Matthew Breems:

Ann Wright:

And in the Reserves, they had some programs where you didn’t have to do monthly drills with the unit. You could just be floating around the world and do two weeks of active duty and then some correspondence courses or stuff like that, and you got credit for a year’s military service in the Reserves. I thought, well, that’s that’s okay. So, I ended up staying another three years in Europe traveling around, doing what I wanted to.

And then whenever I would run out of money, I would call up the Army headquarters in Heidelberg, Germany, and say, “I’ve got the next two months free. Do you have any jobs?” And they always had some jobs. So, they would fly me in from wherever I had fallen on bad times and didn’t have any money, fly me into Germany, and then I’d work for a couple of months and get some more money, go traveling around. So, I used the Army just as much as I think the Army used me.

Matthew Breems:

Ann Wright:

But in the Reserves, sometimes I was in a location. For example, when I was in graduate school at the University of Arkansas, there was a Civil Affairs Reserve unit that was right in Fayetteville, Arkansas. So, I joined up with that unit to make friends, to see what the unit was doing. And it turned out to be a very interesting time because it was right at the end of the war on Vietnam. And the mass evacuation of Vietnamese and other Indochina, China area people that had left primarily Vietnam and had fled to the United States, first as boat people, and then being picked up from the boats and going to the Philippines or Guam, and then being flown to the U.S.

And at the time there were, it’s mirroring the evacuation that we’ve had from Afghanistan, there were about 130,000 people in a very short amount of time, but not as short as 15 days from Afghanistan. But over a period of months, 130,000 Vietnamese and others came to the U.S. And just as what happened today, 40 years ago, the U.S. military was called upon to house and feed and provide care for all of these refugees that were coming into the United States.

So, four military installations were identified as places that needed to be set up to house refugees. So, Fort Chaffee, Arkansas, was only an hour’s drive from our Civil Affairs unit in Fayetteville, Arkansas. So, those of us that wanted to go back on active duty to help with the refugee resettlement project were immediately picked up and sent down to Fort Chaffee where I spent about six months helping a continuing population of 30,000 people that flowed through there. Meaning in six months, we never had less than 30,000 people in that you were having to feed them, clothe them, get medical support for them. Everything they needed, needed to be provided by the U.S. military.

I ended up actually going back on active duty in the early 1980s, and ended up being on active duty for about six years. I answered a recall to active duty that had come out for people that had a background in civil affairs and psychological operations. And since I’d had quite a bit of experience with that in the reserve unit in Arkansas, I decided I would go back into the Army. And I went back on active duty with the Army.

And it ended up the job I ended up with was in a graduate level military school, which was at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, at the School of International Studies at the Institute for Military Assistance. And this school was a training place for not only U.S. military, but also for militaries from other parts of the world to train them in methods of humanitarian assistance and disaster relief.

So, the U.S. got into Grenada, and within 24 hours, it was apparently very obvious that many of our soldiers didn’t know the law of land warfare, and didn’t know that you can’t steal other people’s stuff. And there was a lot of looting by the U.S. forces in Grenada to the extent that the media that was there was talking to Grenadians and they were commenting about this.

So, I got a call saying, “Could you go down to Grenada and help sort out what’s going on with the looting? And also, we need to set up a claims commission for damages that we’ve done and other things.” So, I ended up being in Grenada for about four months with that.

And then I ended up being assigned down to the U.S. Southern Command in Panama. And that was right in the midst of the U.S. support for the Contras that were trying to take down the Sandinista revolutionary government in Nicaragua, and also when the U.S. was supporting a very terrible dictator in El Salvador against an indigenous force that was saying, “We don’t want this dictator.” And the U.S. was totally supporting the Salvadoran military as it massacred so many people in El Salvador.

I ended up switching over to the State Department. And I did stay in the Army Reserves, though. I wanted to complete the 30 years, either the combination of active duty and the Reserve component. So, I stayed in the Reserves. And then, turned out my very first assignment in the foreign service was going back to the very region that I’d left. And I became a political officer in the U.S. embassy in Nicaragua in the last two years the Sandinistas were in power.

After two years there, I ended up going back to Grenada where I had been six years before, because a foreign service officer, my predecessor, had actually been murdered there. Let’s see, the next one was going to the Naval War College, being selected from the Army Reserves to go to the senior military training school. And then from there, I ended up going to…that was the year that the Soviet Union was dissolved in 1991, 1992. And the U.S. was opening embassies in the 15 new nations that were formed out of the republics of the Soviet Union.

I was fascinated by central Asia, so I put my name in to try to go to one of the new embassies. And I ended up going to the new embassy in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, for about five months. And then I ended up being reassigned to an office that dealt with the issues of Somalia, and ended up going to Somalia for over a year and being succonded to the United Nations as the chief of the Justice Division of the UN in Somalia.

I had put in for an assignment, again, back to Central Asia because I found it very fascinating, and went to the U.S. embassy in Kyrgyzstan for two years. And then following that, two years in West Africa and Sierra Leone, which was very difficult assignment because there was already a civil war. And then there was a military coup and we had to evacuate. And that triggered, at the time, the largest evacuation since Vietnam, 20 years before.

From there, I went to Micronesia out here in the Pacific. A small little embassy, a micro embassy in Micronesia. And then from there, on a special assignment to the office of the governor of the state of Hawaii. And then 9/11 happened, and I volunteered to go to Afghanistan and helped reopen the embassy that had been closed there. I stayed there for about five months, and then went on to Mongolia as the deputy ambassador.

And the decision of the Bush administration to invade and occupy Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with 9/11, that was the point where I said I can no longer work for the U.S. government, and I resigned. I was one of three people. All of us were diplomats that resigned at the time of the Iraq war. And since then, I’ve been meeting lots of activists from all over the world and getting to know people who their whole lives have been challenging U.S. government authority. I was in the government for so many years, so I’m a newcomer, so to speak, even though now I’ve been resigned from the government for 18 years, and it’s just been amazing.

Matthew Breems:

Ann Wright:

And knowing that we had U.S. government intelligence people in Iraq as part of the weapons inspectors, they had been part of the IAEA teams for several years, and they had come back with nothing. In fact, what they were saying, Scott Ritter, in particular, was saying, “We looked everywhere, we didn’t find anything. The country of Iraq is on its knees, and you’re going to use military force on this country? ”

So, that was my main thing. But as I started writing out my concerns, I thought, “Well, I’m going to throw in everything I’m concerned about. I’m concerned about the lack of effort on having a conversation with North Korea.” I was concerned about that. I was concerned about the total support of the state of Israel versus the Palestinians. I was concerned about the Patriot Act and the curtailment of civil liberties.

So, I ended up first sending a cable of dissent to the State Department laying out my concerns. And I got back this paltry little statement like we know more than you do, and just be quiet out there in Mongolia. And of course, that did not sit well with me. Finally, I thought, well, I cannot be a part of what I know is going to be a horrific, horrific bloodbath in Iraq. And not that my resignation will make a bit of difference, but at least I won’t be a part of it. I won’t have that on my conscience. And so, I ended up resigning.

Everybody was just stunned, like, “What in Heaven’s name have you done?” But there were a lot of people on our staff that were shaking our heads like, what is Washington thinking about? This is not going to go well. Well, our public affairs guy immediately went downstairs to his office and started sending out emails to all of his friends saying Ann’s resigned and da da da da da.

Well, I immediately started getting emails from people from all over the world, diplomats from all over the world, saying you’ve done the right thing. I wish we could do the same thing, but I’ve got kids in college. I’ve got mortgages. I can’t resign financially. But you are doing the right thing because this is going to be horrible for, of course, the people of Iraq, but it’s going to be horrible for the United States, too.

Matthew Breems:

Ann Wright:

So, I checked out the VFP website and thought, well, there was some speakers like Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky, Daniel Ellsberg, people that I’d heard of. So, why not go and check it out? And that was my first step into activism. And between Vets For Peace and Code Pink Women for Peace that also had a presence there.

And then the following year in 2005 at a Veterans For Peace convention in Dallas, that’s when Cindy Sheehan, whose son had been killed in Iraq, her son Casey, had come, was a speaker at the convention. And she said, “George Bush’s ranch is only two hours from Dallas. Let’s go down there and let’s just block the roads and get this war stopped.” And off we went. And 27 days later, over 15,000 people had come to Crawford, Texas, in support of Cindy and all of the other Gold Star families who were saying the war needs to end. And from that point on, it’s been pretty well nonstop of working with people all over the country and all over the world to try to get our governments to stop these wars.

Matthew Breems:

Ann Wright:

And so during that period, I just kept collecting more and more materials for it. And at a certain point it was like, I’m never going to get this book finished because I’m doing too much traveling, too much activism, to get it all done myself. So, a good friend here at the University of Hawaii was teaching the geography of war and peace. And every time I would come home to Hawaii, she would have me speak at her class about the latest things that we were doing to challenge the wars.

So, I asked her, Susan Dixon, I said, “Would you want to help me finish up this book so we can at least get it out so it’ll be relevant?” And she dropped the PhD thesis that she was writing and helped out for many months to get that book finished. So, she and I are the co-authors of “Dissent: Voices of Conscience”.

Matthew Breems:

Ann Wright:

Matthew Breems:

Ann Wright:

Whether it be in Afghanistan or Pakistan or Yemen on the issue of U.S. assassin drones that had kill people in all three of those countries, or to Iran to talk about with Iranians the need to stay in that nuclear treaty that the Obama administration finally got, but then the Trump administration threw out. To go to North Korea and speak with a women’s conference on peace, and then to be, this was 30 women, 30 international women, including two Nobel Peace laureates. And in 2015, we went to Pyongyang, North Korea, and then Kaesong, North Korea, and talked with thousands of North Korean women. And then were allowed to drive across the DMZ into South Korea where we had a peace conference with hundreds of South Korean women at the city hall of Seoul, South Korea.

So, there have been so many wonderful opportunities to get to go to places, to go to Russia several times, to talk with people in many cities in Russia about their feelings about the confrontation between the U.S. and Russia. And they say, “We don’t want a confrontation. We just want peace. We don’t want a confrontation.” And the same to go to China to speak at Nanjing University on the issue of whistleblowers. And then also to go on a trip throughout many places in China as we talked about the violence of war and the violence of World War II on China.

And also to go many, many times to Cuba, and particularly to go all the way out to the Eastern end of the island to Guantanamo, and to have participate in conferences about the prison in Guantanamo, about torture that’s gone on in Guantanamo, and about foreign military bases in the country of Cuba, that being Guantanamo. So, I really feel so privileged to have been able to use my background to help explain and challenge a lot of the policies that came about during the time that I was in the government and be willing to speak out against them.

Matthew Breems:

Ann Wright:

Matthew Breems:

Ann Wright:

Matthew Breems:

The post Podcast: “The common thing is that no one wants war” – Col. Ann Wright (ret.) appeared first on Courage to Resist.

by Courage to Resist

“It’s personal. I care deeply about our humanitarian efforts in the world. And I think we learned from the Nazis and the Holocaust that we do have to defend civil rights, human rights, and constitutional rights.”

This Courage to Resist podcast was recorded and edited by Matthew Breems. Production assistance, Stephanie Atkinson. Executive Producer, Jeff Paterson.

We need to raise at least $15,000 to produce this two-year-long series of 50+ interviews so that this history is not lost!

Alan Kennedy:

Matthew Breems:

Joining me today is National Guard Captain, Alan Kennedy. Captain Kennedy attended a peaceful Black Lives Matter protest in 2020 while off-duty. Subsequently, he was reprimanded for his involvement in the protest in an op-ed he wrote. A lawyer and a public policy advocate, Captain Kennedy decided to appeal the decision, and eventually sue the National Guard for infringement of his constitutional rights.

Well, good morning, Alan. Thank you so much for taking the time to be on the podcast. We always love to get some history on all of our guests to just get a sense of who you are. Give us a little background on who you are and how you ended up joining, in your case, the Army National Guard.

Alan Kennedy:

Matthew Breems:

Alan Kennedy:

Matthew Breems:

Alan Kennedy:

Matthew Breems:

Alan Kennedy:

Matthew Breems:

Alan Kennedy:

Matthew Breems:

Alan Kennedy:

Matthew Breems:

Alan Kennedy:

And so, I think in terms of my military career, it made sense that I would eventually become a judge advocate, also known as JAG. And for almost five years, I served as a trial defense counsel representing soldiers accused of crimes and punished by the command for their actions. My job was to zealously represent soldiers, which I did before various tribunals. And then after working in Pennsylvania, I transferred to the Colorado National Guard in order to start a PhD program at the University of Colorado, Denver in the School of Public Affairs. I just received my PhD, so I guess I’m now Dr. Kennedy. And now a lecturer in public policy at William & Mary.

And I’ve always served part-time in the military, one weekend a month and two weeks in the summer. And the only exception to that was when I was deployed to the Middle East. In 2018 to 2019, I was deployed with the 34th Infantry Division. I served in Kuwait, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria. The portion in Syria toward the end of my deployment, I had the opportunity to go to do a mission in Syria where I met Kurdish soldiers who had fought against ISIS and who were in danger of being left behind and left to ethnic cleansing when President Trump announced that he was unilaterally withdrawing from Syria.

So after my return and after my release from active duty, the New York Times invited me to participate in a video op-ed sharing why I believed that that was immoral to abandon our current Kurdish allies. So, that came out in the New York Times, front page of the New York Times website in October, 2019. Again, I was not on orders, not on duty, and not in uniform when I participated in the New York Times video op-ed. And then an investigation was done into whether I violated any laws, rules, or policies. And the answer was no, that my New York Times video op-ed violated no laws, regulations, or policies. That should have been the end of it.

However, as the summer of 2020 approached, I became increasingly active with the Black Lives Matter movement. On May 30th, 2020, I walked from my home in North Capitol Hill in Denver, Colorado, a few blocks to the Capitol and participated in a peaceful march against systemic racism and police brutality. Toward the end of that March, the police showed up in riot gear, and without warning or provocation and in violation of the Denver Police rules on use of force, fired clouds of tear gas indiscriminately at the thousands of marchers.

So, I was among those who were teargassed. So, I wrote an op-ed critical of the use of police brutality against marchers protesting police brutality, and that op-ed appeared in the Denver Post on June 4th, 2020. Then I subsequently wrote a follow-up op-ed that was published in Colorado Newsline on July 9th once the military launched an investigation the same day that my op-ed was published.

Matthew Breems:

Alan Kennedy:

Matthew Breems:

Alan Kennedy:

Matthew Breems:

Alan Kennedy:

Matthew Breems:

Alan Kennedy:

Matthew Breems:

Alan Kennedy:

Matthew Breems:

Alan Kennedy:

Matthew Breems:

Alan Kennedy:

And then Colonel Beatty, the chief of staff, and my supervisor, Colonel Robinson, the staff judge advocate, explicitly referenced the July 12th reprimand citing Department of Defense instruction, 1325.06 as the basis for negative ratings on my annual evaluation. And then in July, General Paul blocked me from receiving an award that every member of the National Guard receives every three years for time and service.

Matthew Breems:

Alan Kennedy:

Matthew Breems:

Alan Kennedy:

Matthew Breems:

Alan Kennedy:

Matthew Breems:

Alan Kennedy:

Matthew Breems:

Alan Kennedy:

Matthew Breems:

Alan Kennedy:

Matthew Breems:

Alan Kennedy:

Matthew Breems:

The post Podcast: “I joined the military to fight fascism” – Capt. Alan Kennedy appeared first on Courage to Resist.

by Courage to Resist

David Finke is a conscientious objector, military counselor, and lifetime nonviolent activist. After receiving a classification as a CO and deferment during the Vietnam War, he has continued to dedicate his life to helping others through his work addressing conscription, supporting GI resistance, and encouraging counter recruitment.

“That was my heritage, as well as a pretty strong foundation in the Jewish and Christian scriptures. From an early age I considered myself to be a follower of Jesus, a disciple of Christ, a person who took seriously what he taught us in the sermon on the mount, his own example of not forming a violent revolution against his oppressors.”

But it was really a point of pride for those of us who were working within that network, whether on a staff or volunteer, that we were able to say to those who were saying no to the war, “Yes. We will say yes to you. And we will stick with you through this long process. We will go to your court-martials, we will go to your trials. We will help your family come and visit you at Fort Leavenworth, and different brigs.”

This Courage to Resist podcast was produced in collaboration with the Vietnam Full Disclosure effort of Veterans For Peace — “Towards an honest commemoration of the American war in Vietnam.” Last year marked 50 years of GI resistance, in and out of uniform, for many of the courageous individuals featured. Interview and edit by Matthew Breems. Production assistance by Stephanie Atkinson. Jeff Paterson, Executive Producer.

We may have the end of official drafting of people, but there still is what could be called the “economic draft.” An all-volunteer army has people who still feel compelled because that’s who will hire them. That’s who offers them education. “Join the army and see the world.” They leave out the last phrase, “and kill people.””

Organizations discussed:

We need to raise at least $15,000 to produce this two-year-long series of 50+ interviews so that this history is not lost!

David Finke:

Matthew Breems:

In short order, he started serving with the American Friends Service Committee in Chicago as a draft counselor. His years of service helped many avoid, delay, and end their military service.

Good afternoon David, and welcome to the podcast. We are excited to hear your story of activism, a unique one from some of the other guests we’ve had on the podcast. But with all of our guests, we like to get some background information on you as a person. What happened that made you decide to become an activist and a conscientious objector?

David Finke:

So, from age 16 until when I registered for the draft at 18, I began building my file, keeping track of donations I made to peace groups, meetings I went to, marches I was in, books I was reading. So, when I turned 18, I did file my form 150, they called it there, where one has to say on what basis a person is opposed to being a part of the military and what in a person’s life demonstrates their sincerity. I think I filed a pretty good claim and the draft board turned it down, but that really is just the first step. It gives you the opportunity to ask to meet in person with them. So, I had what I’ve always realized is a really fortunate set of circumstances. It turned out that the draft board chairman was a guy for whom I’d been doing babysitting for years.

I lived a block away. And he knew that I never would take a gig on Sunday night because that’s when our youth fellowship was. So he knew of my own religious commitments and sincerity. So while I was still 18 and right before heading to college, I was given the 1-0 classification, which means that you are eligible to be drafted in the same order as somebody called up for military service, but you will be sent to some alternative civilian service “in the national health, safety or interest.”

Another unusual thing that happened to me is that the draft board informally deferred me. They knew I was in college because you have to tell them your address, but I never asked for a student deferment and that’s because I had studied the operation of the draft law pretty closely and I learned that if you ever request or receive a deferment, your eligibility to be drafted extends to age 35. If, however, you don’t ask for or receive a deferment, you become overage at 26. So that’s what happened to me and when I turned 26, I was overage. I sent my draft card back to the Selective Service System. I said, “This is yours. I don’t need it. I will no longer cooperate with you.”

Matthew Breems:

David Finke:

One of our programs was to provide draft counseling. What started out being two or three people a week coming into the office when I was hired in the fall of 1967, soon became a real flood. And there were dozens of people. And we realized that even renting two more offices wasn’t going to be enough. So my program associate at that point went to work in establishing a network of community-based counseling centers. And after a year, we had about 30 of them that we could send people to. We also worked on providing training for an ever enlarging group of volunteer draft counselors. Now, running parallel to that of helping people try to get what they were entitled to within the legal draft system, was those whose objection wasn’t just to serving in the military, but to the whole conscription system, and who became variously called non-cooperators, draft resisters, draft card burners.

And when I was hired, then by AFSC to be their peace secretary, we already were beginning a relationship with CADRE [Chicago Area Draft Resisters]. It was… it’d take a couple more hours to talk about all the things we did together, but it was very constructive. And I think that the Quaker presence helped make CADRE a nationwide leader in that movement being predominantly non-violent, rather than training people in methods of sabotage with military or whatever. A parallel line of development, and this may connect with a lot of your audience, was those who were in the military already. And the atrocity and atrocities of Vietnam were saying, “No, I’m not going to do this.” But there was emergence of the group called the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. There were active duty people. During those years of the late sixties and early seventies, there were an awful lot of folks who simply split from the military, went AWOL or what the Navy calls UA, unauthorized absence, and found their way to various Quakers.

So some of those folks came to CADRE. Some came to our office. We had an informal network and the statute of limitations has long run on this, so I can be a little more explicit. There were people who were willing to put up AWOL G.I.s in their home or drive them to medical appointments or to help turn themselves in at one of the military bases to start their discharge process.

There were those who took up a collection and they slipped envelopes with cash under my door. Fund X to give some, some spending money to people who were on the lam. There were those who were on their way to Canada, and we would put them in touch with Canadian war resisters. Just a lot of different circumstances and a lot of different remedies. But it was really a point of pride for those of us who were working within that network, whether on a staff or volunteer, that we were able to say to those who were saying no to the war, “Yes. We will say yes to you. And we will stick with you through this long process. We will go to your court-martials, we will go to your trials. We will help your family come and visit you at Fort Leavenworth, and different brigs.”

Matthew Breems:

David Finke:

Matthew Breems:

David Finke:

We had a relation with some military resisters who were in Fort Leavenworth or other military brigs. The next chapter that I could talk about is what I did professionally after that. And I, and two other guys that I’d met through the draft refusers support group, joined what was called Omega Graphics. And Bob Freeston, one of the original draft card burners, said, “I’d like somebody to take over the shop, keep up the a tradition of serving social change movements, and I will stick around for six months and train you.” By apprenticeship, three of us learned the printing craft from Bob Freeston and kept that shop going. So from that point until 2014, I was a one man print shop and enjoyed telling people about its origins in the draft resistance movement. Because Omega Graphics was printing the leaflets that CADRE people were handing out at the induction center every morning as people came in for their physical. And if they pass to be sworn into the military.

Matthew Breems:

David Finke:

So to be able to give financial support for that is something that I urge. Center for Conscience and War. Becoming trained as a counselor is something one can offer to do it’s a lengthy process, but it certainly is useful. Working to abolish the draft is something that Center for Conscience and War will help people do. The other is to look at the resources of my old employer, the American Friends Service Committee. Their program, Youth and Militarism, for years has been producing a good material for what we will call counter-recruitment. Those are all ongoing efforts that are not as well funded as they ought to be and can use a lot of volunteer help at the local level. Joining up with people nationally and locally who have a concern about not plunging into war again and having constructive alternatives that one looks for at the international level and a community level.

Matthew Breems:

David Finke:

Matthew Breems:

The post Podcast (VN-E44): “Strong religious commitment against war” – David Finke appeared first on Courage to Resist.

by Courage to Resist

“Arrived there during the ’69 Tet Offensive. I mean, I had misgivings about the war. I was pretty much against the war. But because of my family background, I couldn’t bring myself to avoid the draft and go to Canada. My family had a pretty heavy hand on the way I looked at the world, even though I’d been gradually moving toward a very strong anti-war attitude.”

“We were supposed to think about how we were winning the war was by body counts. And so when we’d blow an ambush, you’d be sent out to check to see know how many bodies you could count. Just the insanity of it. It just seemed all so surreal to me.”

This Courage to Resist podcast was produced in collaboration with the Vietnam Full Disclosure effort of Veterans For Peace — “Towards an honest commemoration of the American war in Vietnam.” Last year marked 50 years of GI resistance, in and out of uniform, for many of the courageous individuals featured. Interview and edit by Matthew Breems. Production assistance by Stephanie Atkinson. Jeff Paterson, Executive Producer.

“And then my work became all in about my experience. And I basically just bled on my canvases. And all the photo work, all the painting I did, was all about Vietnam. And that helped me confront a lot of that.”

Visit William’s website “A Matter of Conscience: GI Resistance During the Vietnam War“ (amatterofconscience.com)

We need to raise at least $15,000 to produce this two-year-long series of 50+ interviews so that this history is not lost!

William Short:

And the next morning, when I got up, I was walking and there was a church on the way. I sat in this church for the longest time, trying to figure out, “Am I going to go to Canada? Am I going to go in?” And then I finally decided, “Well, if I’m really going to be against the war, maybe I should go see it firsthand. So that when people ask me why I’m against the war, I’ll have real firsthand information about why the war is wrong.”

Matthew Breems:

Bill was an army sergeant in Vietnam, where he eventually refused orders to fight. He was court-martialed twice before being discharged. Bill went on to be an activist artist, creating photography exhibits and books that highlighted anti-war servicemen. He was also an associate producer on the acclaimed documentary, “Sir! No Sir!”

Well, Bill, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the podcast today. We are excited to hear your story of activism. All of our guests we start with the same place, and that’s with some background information about you as a person and your upbringing. And what led you to find yourself being in the US military?

William Short:

And I also have a long history with the military in this country. Both sides of the family fought in the Revolutionary War. My great, great grandfather, James David Short, was somebody who was always talked to me about as I was growing up, who was a civil war veteran, a corporal in the Union Army. My grandfather was a World War I Navy veteran. My dad was a Navy veteran. Just about every war, I think, except the Spanish-American War, my family had taken part in.

Matthew Breems:

William Short:

And so when I graduated high school and went to–this is all in Ohio, Wright-Patterson, for those of you who don’t know, is in Fairborn, Ohio, which is right next to Dayton, Ohio. I went to Ohio University and I was going to be a math major since 1965. Graduated high school in ’65. And I was going to be a mathematics major, primarily because my dad had always pushed me toward technical aspects of study. I was good in math in high school.

And I also joined the Air Force ROTC. And was thinking that I was going to be an Air Force officer and a mathematician. Took me about one semester to realize that Air Force ROTC wasn’t for me. First demonstration I ever went to, I carried a sign calling for the bombing of Hanoi. Because it was a ROTC protest. We went there in our uniforms to protest.

But I dropped out of ROTC pretty quick and pretty much discovered counter-culture. Got involved with sex, drugs, and rock and roll, from 1966 on. And ended up being suspended from school for grades. And got snatched up in the draft in 1968.

Matthew Breems:

William Short:

What I didn’t realize that the military at that time … this is 1968 … they were looking for people to serve as small unit commanders, like sergeants. And so, after basic, I was sent to Infantry AIT, Advanced Individual Training, at Fort Jackson, South Carolina. And spent basic there and then was sent to Infantry AIT after basic.

After that, I was offered an opportunity to go to what’s called Noncommissioned Officer’s Candidate School at Fort Benning, which was a school that cranked out combat sergeants.

Matthew Breems:

William Short:

And then arrived in the Bay Area in Oakland, to report to the distribution station. I got there a day early. I did it because I was thinking about going to Canada. I was thinking about deserting. And I could not actually bring myself to do it at that time. And the next morning, when I got up, I was walking and there was a church on the way. I sat in this church for the longest time, trying to figure out, “Am I going to go to Canada? Am I going to go in?” And I finally decided, “Well, if I’m really going to be against the war, maybe I should go see it firsthand. So that when people ask me why I’m against the war, I’ll have real firsthand information about why the war is wrong.”

Matthew Breems:

William Short:

Matthew Breems:

William Short:

Matthew Breems:

What did you begin to see firsthand?

William Short:

And so we’re firing M79 grenade launchers. And the sergeants that were running that had targets that we were supposed to fire at. And the targets we were firing at were gravestones. That seemed appalling to me, that we would be desecrating these gravestones. And I just said, “I’m not going to do it.” I said, “I know how to shoot this thing. I’m not going to fire it at these gravestones.”

Matthew Breems:

William Short:

I ended up getting assigned to 1st Infantry Division in Lai Khê, which was based in the Michelin Rubber Plantation. And we were in what was called a free-fire zone, meaning that if it moved, you shot it. Didn’t work in villages, we worked in forest and rice paddies, and along the rivers and pathways that led into Vietnam from Cambodia. We’d walk as a company doing search and destroy, S&D, missions. Then we’d split up into platoon size ambushes at night.

We were supposed to think about how we were winning the war was by body counts. And so when we’d blow an ambush, you’d be sent out to check to see know how many bodies you could count. Just the insanity of it. It just seemed all so surreal to me.

Matthew Breems:

William Short:

Matthew Breems:

William Short:

We went back out for another month and we kept complaining and bitching about the war. And then finally, Richard and Gary and I, we were back in the NDP, just talked it over with all the other guys in our unit. And we said, “The three of us are going on strike. We’re not going out anymore.” And the other guys all said, “We’d like to do that too. But, number one, our families would probably disown us. Number two, we’re going to go to prison. And we don’t know for how long. And number three, we probably won’t get a job when we go back to the United States because we’ll have a dishonorable discharge.”

And that was mainly what kept guys from doing it. Probably half my platoon would have done it if it hadn’t been for that. And the other half were ambivalent about the war but felt like they needed to see it through.

So the three of us went to our lieutenant, said, “Next operation. We’re not going.” And he freaked out, went to the captain. Captain, put us basically under our own self arrest. Flew us back to the base camp at Lai Khê. They split us up. And I don’t know what they told the other two guys, but the other two guys got freaked out and ended up getting convinced to go back out into the field. And I couldn’t be convinced.

They told me I was going to get charged with leading a conspiracy to mutiny against the United States government because I was the leader of the group. And that that was going to carry a 20 to life sentence. And I thought, “I’m going in for a long time.” I got two court martials. I got my first court martial, and I defended myself. And I was charged with … instead of a sentence given a general court martial, I was given a special court martial. And a special court martial carries a maximum of six months sentence.

So I went to trial, and I had a panel of five judges. What I was been charged, eventually, was refusing a direct order. And that direct order was to go out into the field. And my defense was that I’d never refused a direct order because I actually had never been given an order to return to combat. So my defense was that I had never been given the direct order.

Of course, when I defended myself, they can put you on the stand and cross-examine you. And when they cross examined me, and said, “If you’d been given the direct order, would you have refused?” And I said, “Yes, I would. But I hadn’t been given the order.” Well, they found me guilty anyway. And they sentenced me to six months, suspended five of it, and sent me to LBJ, Long Binh Jail, for a month.

And then I came back to the same unit, same battalion, different company. They sent me out to an NDP. They had a helicopter waiting on the helipad with its rotors going. They had a pack with an M16, and a helmet. On the tarmac, they had two sergeants and an officer snap me to the position of attention. They ordered me to pick up the pack, pick up the weapon, pick up the helmet, and get on the chopper to go to the field. And I refuse.

So the minute they did that, I knew that if I had had legal counsel, and I hadn’t defended myself, I would have beat the first court martial. Because they were covering their ass from what I’d done in the first one.

So I got sentenced to a full six months, went back to LBJ. And my XO, the executive officer from Bravo Company, actually volunteered to be my legal counsel. And he put up a real nice defense. He privately told me that he couldn’t do what I did, but he understood why I did it.

And then when I got to LBJ, I met a whole bunch of other guys who had been in for refusing to go on operations, or had refused orders, or had been busted for smoking pot.

Matthew Breems:

It had really bottomed out. Robert Heinl, who was a colonel, wrote an article in ’71 that spoke directly to this issue, that the military was basically inoperable in Vietnam because of the anti-war movement.

So what happens to you now, after the second court martial?

William Short:

So I went to the stockade shrink. And he said, “Well, what are you going to do when you go back?” I said, “I’m going to go back to school.” He said, “Well, you know you’re not going to get the G.I. Bill?” He said, “Okay, well, I’ll see what I can do.”

So when I got back to the States and received my papers, I got a general discharge. But I got a general discharge under honorable conditions. And what he had done, is he had determined that I was unsuitable … not undesirable, but unsuitable … for military duty. And being unsuitable meant that the military had made a mistake by drafting me, that I should never have been drafted in the first place.

So I ended up getting the G.I. Bill. And I went back to school at Ohio University for a couple of semesters and then transferred to Antioch College, which was probably the best thing I ever did.

Got out in September of ’69. Went back to Ohio University in the spring of ’70. Got deeply involved in the anti-war movement at Ohio University. During the riots at Ohio University, as a result of Kent State, we set the ROTC trash cans on fire. The same ROTC building that I had been in as an ROTC student, we set the trash cans on fire outside of the building as part of our protest.

After that spring at Ohio University, when Kent State erupted and the Ohio University campus got shut down, I just went into kind of lockdown myself and just ended up … basically, I was stoned for three years. I just did drugs for three years. Dropped as much acid as I could. Smoked as much pot as I could. Worked construction. Went to demonstrations. Went to all the big demonstrations in Washington.

Matthew Breems:

William Short:

And then I finally, in 1979, decided that I’d make one last attempt to go back to school. And I went back to school and majored in art. And that did it. I went back to Ohio University for a couple semesters and then transferred to Antioch. Spent two years at Antioch and got my undergraduate degree in a Bachelor of Fine Arts in painting and sculpture and photography.

And then my work became all in about my experience. And I basically just bled on my canvases. And all the photo work, all the painting I did, was all about Vietnam. And that helped me confront a lot of that.

Matthew Breems:

William Short:

Matthew Breems:

William Short:

And then I got into grad school at USC and came out to Los Angeles to go to grad school. Then after I finished grad school, moved to Boston. And then just saw that I could probably speak louder with my photography than I could with my painting.

And I started hearing stories of other guys who had done acts of resistance like I had done, while they were serving in the military. So I thought, “I need to maybe consider photographing and interviewing these people.”

So my wife, who was a working journalist, we decided that we were going to put this book project together. We started interviewing locally and shooting 4×5 film portraits of these vets who had protested the war while they was serving in the military.

And then it grew. And then I became an artist in residence at the Addison Gallery of American Art. And they funded the completion of this work. I think we spent five years interviewing and photographing people around the country who had protested the war from inside.

And then, eventually, the Addison published the book in 1992. Also, during that time, I started making trips back to Vietnam to work on, “As Seen by Both Sides”, which was a exhibition of 20 Vietnamese artists … Vietnamese artists living in Vietnam, not immigrants … and 20 American artists who did artwork protesting the war.

And then that led me to meet Vietnamese veterans in Vietnam. And I befriended a bunch of former Vietcong and NFL fighters. I met all these people. I started thinking, “Their stories need to be told.”

So my wife and I made three trips to Vietnam. I made six trips in total. But my wife made three trips with me to interview 90 people who fought against the United States. And these are people who were NVA soldiers, Vietcong soldiers, spies, anti-war protestors who went to the universities in Saigon. We interviewed survivors of the Mỹ Lai massacre, 90 people, all the way from the Chinese border down to the Mekong Delta.

First one, the Vietnam American veterans, is: “A Matter of Conscience: GI Resistance During the Vietnam War”. And the other one is “Memories of the American War: Stories From Vietnam”. That one hasn’t been published. We tried to get it published, but most publishers thought the stories were too depressing. So we’ve exhibited it, but it’s still waiting to be published.

Matthew Breems:

William Short:

Matthew Breems:

William Short:

And of all the people who are interviewed in “Sir! No Sir!”, I think a good two thirds to three quarter of them came from our book, “A Matter of Conscience”. And there’s some photographs of street photographs, and landscapes and things that are from those trips there as well.

I consider myself not just an artist, but a cultural worker. And my artwork has always been … even if you go to my personal site, which is williamshort.com, and look at the work there, it’s all invested in some sort of politics.

Matthew Breems:

William Short:

Matthew Breems:

William Short:

Matthew Breems:

The post Podcast (VN-E43): “I’m going in for a long time” – William Short appeared first on Courage to Resist.