Many people are now suggesting that the food system is broken, but what do they mean by broken?  Is the problem the quantity of food? The quality? The inequality within the system, or its impact on the climate and environmental crisis? Despite these critiques coming on multiple fronts, the food system appears to be continuing down the same path it has been on.

In this interview with Christophe Bene, we discuss the food system, the four dominant narratives about why the food system isn't working and the different concerns and values they reflect. We also talk about the key actors that can keep the system on its current trajectory or push it to change.

Christophe is a senior researcher at the International Center for Tropical Agriculture (CIAT) and is senior policy adviser for the Consultative Group on International Agricultural Research (CGIAR). You can find more of Christophe's work here
The papers that informed most of our discussion today are this one on the narratives and this one on the barriers to the transformation of the food system.

If you enjoyed the narrative approach to complex systems, check out Episode 8- The six globalisation  with Anthea Roberts

Awesome graphic exploring Organic vs Regenerative vs Agroecological  practices and their underlying values that I mentioned in the show

Also, check out the website and join the discord!

Most politics are currently dominated by political parties which are locked into conflict with each other.  In this system, people don't turn up as individuals but as part of the party machine, in which they work together to wield power over other parties.  Politicians aim to convince voters to give them the power to rule over them, but not to govern with them. Ideas are debated, but if there is no intention to listen and one side has all power to make decisions, then it is only for show. The goal isn't necessarily good governance, but to be seen to be "right",  and to gain the control of majorities. This is a system in which power is centralised in as few hands as possible and is then used to exert their will over everybody else.  It goes from the general population to a handful of politicians, to the majority party, and then the factions within that party. 
But what could a different system look like, where dialogue dominates instead of debate,  where citizens remain involved in the decision-making process, and where politicians work to have power with instead of power over people?  

In this episode, I talk with the former mayor of Frome, Peter MacFadyen, about how we can take over our local politics and change the rules of the game. In the interview, we talk about the story of Frome and the group of independents that changed its politics, what it looks like in practice to listen to each other and the community, as well as the broader prospects of the movement. 

Find out more about Peters's work
Flatpack democracy Website and Facebook page

Economic globalisation is a complex process that affects everybody. There are many stories told about globalisation, that it benefits everybody, that some people benefit at the expense of others, or that everybody stands to lose from it.  So which is true?
Stories help us simplify and understand reality, however, each one is focused on describing only particular aspects of the complex whole. Each story highlights particular scales, actors and normative values.
In this interview, we unscramble the Rubik's cube of dialogues that surround globalisation with Anthea Roberts. We discuss the importance of stories and metaphors, the dominant narratives of globalisation, and how identifying the underlying values can help us find fertile ground for co-operation or identify points of tension.  By unravelling these stories Anthea demonstrates a powerful approach to understanding complex systems.

Anthea's Website
A short article summarising the narratives

How we organise ourselves is central to the way our society functions. We often take for granted the power dynamics and values that are present in the modern-day nation-state, but who do these arrangements benefit and who does it disempower? Is governance from the top the best way of realising our values and creating the kind of society we desire? Often associated with chaos, Anarchism is a generally misunderstood political philosophy that suggests that nobody needs to be in charge.
In this episode, I chat with Ruth Kinna about Anarchism. We explore the history and context out which anarchism emerged, the core values and critiques, as well as some practical embodiments of it. I think this episode is quite complementary to Episode 6 where I spoke with Fleur and Marco, in which we explored power dynamics and the difficulties of trying to create spaces free of domination within social movements which is a central value of anarchist thought and reflects the process of anarchisation that we speak about in this interview.

Link to Ruth's books

The podcast about revolutions mentioned at the start is, Revolutions by Mike Duncan, and is part of the series on 1848. 

In this episode, I talk with Fleur and Marco about power dynamics and pedagogies within social movements generally but is focused on our experience with Extinction Rebellion. One of the themes that lie at the heart of this discussion is about whose voices are heard. Fleur's research has focused on an understanding of social movements as places of learning and has looked at the role of the urgency narrative within the movement in reproducing the dominant logic, and how the pandemic brought marginal voices closer to the centre. Marco's research has focused on the role of power within the non-hierarchical organisation, and in particular, the power of facilitators to mitigate for power and make space for those who are less dominant in space. 
In the systems change framework, in this episode, we look at how information flows (whose voices are heard) can influence the underlying paradigm we operate from, and some of the practices and forces that have helped to enable this. 

In this episode, I chat with renowned heterodox economist Steve Keen about Economics.
We dive into the history of capitalism as a system of organisation, as well as the origins of the theories created to explain it and unearth the assumptions made by early theorists and the problems that these have created in our current system. We also talk about the nature of money, the 2008 financial crisis, how conventional economists understand the climate crisis, and what a realistic economic theory might look like.

To find out more about Steves work;

His Patreon
The Debunking Economics podcast
His books are; The New Economics Manifesto, and Debunking Economics. 

In the past, economic growth has been strongly correlated with improvements in human wellbeing, and so economic growth is generally considered to be a good proxy measure for human wellbeing. But is growth always good? Can it continue forever? How are the benefits distributed? Has the measure become the target? What role do money and consumption play in living a good life? These are the kinds of questions that the degrowth movement seeks to answer.  In this episode, I chat with Robin Roels about the degrowth movement. We explore the origins of the movement, some of its key ideas and principles, and some thoughts on alternative paradigms. 

Limits to growth paper
Jason Hikels Less is More is a popular book on degrowth

Check out related podcasts
Energy and society with Richard Heinberg for more detail about our energy future
The Art of Frugal Hedonism with Annie Raser Rowland for what a degrowth lifestyle could look like

Have you got suggestions for further reading?
let me know!

On the surface permaculture can appear to just be a hip form of gardening, although permaculturists often suggest it is a revolution disguised as gardening. 
But what is permaculture? Is permaculture perennial agriculture? Intelligent integrated design of homes and gardens? Or is permaculture a set of ethics and principles applied to design?

In this episode, I speak with Terry Leahy about Permaculture. Terry has recently authored "The Politics of Permaculture" which takes a critical look at permaculture as a social movement. We discuss the context in which permaculture originates, its key ideas, and the different ways people understand and practice permaculture. We explore how permaculture operates as a social movement, different visions of the future,  and some critical perspectives on the movement and how they can be addressed.

This episode is slightly longer than I am normally going to aim for, but I enjoyed this interview and after shortening it substantially I couldn't bring myself to cut more content out. But I give my apologies for any jumpiness in the edit as a result of some of the cuts. 

Links
The Politics of Permaculture can be freely accessed here along with other open access publications from pluto press, and you can also check out Terry's website for more of their work.

The amount of energy we have available to do valuable work is a parameter that continually shapes and reshapes how our societies are organised economically, politically, socially, and ethically. Therefore understanding our energy systems and their capabilities and limitations is essential for understanding why our society is structured the way it is.

In this episode, I chat with Richard Heinberg about the different kinds of energy and how they shape our society, prospects for our energy futures, and the great transition ahead. Richard is a well-known commentator on energy, culture, the economy, and the environment. He is the author of 14 books and is a senior fellow at the Post Carbon Institute, where he writes regularly.

Find out more about Richards work:

Link to Richard's book about the energy transition.

Link to the Post Carbon Institute, where you can find other publications.