Most of us have never been there but according to a quick Google search, some of the things you might see at the bottom of the ocean include sea spiders, tube worms, and something called a blob sculpin. Add to that list: heavy equipment for mining rare earth minerals like cobalt and manganese. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak with Daniel Kammen, an energy professor at the University of California at Berkeley, about deep-sea mining. We learn about this segment of the extraction industry, consider the environmental hazards, and examine why it’s largely unnecessary. We also take a look at the promise of growing rare minerals like perovskites in laboratories, and discuss the recent Sunnylands Climate Agreement between the U.S. and China.

Narrator | 00:02 – This is Sea Change Radio covering the shift to sustainability. I’m Alex Wise.

Daniel Kammen (DK) | 00:25 – Cobalt as mined today, either in the Congo, where most, most of it comes from, or um, from the seabed, is hugely problematic and damaging.

Narrator | 00:37 – Most of us have never been there but according to a quick Google search, some of the things you might see at the bottom of the ocean include sea spiders, tube worms, and something called a blob sculpin. Add to that list: heavy equipment for mining rare earth minerals like cobalt and manganese. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak with Daniel Kammen, an energy professor at the University of California at Berkeley, about deep-sea mining. We learn about this segment of the extraction industry, consider the environmental hazards, and examine why it’s largely unnecessary. We also take a look at the promise of growing rare minerals like perovskites in laboratories, and discuss the recent Sunnylands Climate Agreement between the U.S. and China.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:46 – I’m joined now on Sea Change Radio by Daniel Kammen. He is a Professor of Energy at UC Berkeley, and a former science envoy for President Obama. Dan, welcome back to Sea Change Radio. 

Daniel Kammen (DK) | 01:57 – Thanks for having me back on. I really appreciate it. 

Alex Wise (AW) | 02:00 – Always a pleasure. I wanted you to summarize the white paper that you presented at COP 28 in Dubai. It was entitled, “Next Generation EV Batteries Eliminate the Need for Deep-Sea Mining.” So first, what is deep-sea mining and what’s the problem that it presents?

Daniel Kammen (DK) | 02:19 – So, deep-seabed mining is in my view, kind of one of the scariest crossover issues between the old energy economy and the new energy economy. And by that what I mean is that we’ve known about seabed mining for a long time. In fact, Howard Hughes was, one of the many ways he was famous was he constructed a boat, the Glomar Explorer that was ostensibly supposed to be harvesting these nodules of rare earth metals, manganese, cobalt, a variety of things from the sea floor. And they’re about the size of tennis balls or softballs. They grow very slowly, um, at low temperature and, and, and high pressure and he had this boat that was designed to go do that. But in fact, we now know decades later that the Glomar Explorer was actually a CIA front and it was a front to go and try to pull a sunken Russian submarine off the bottom of the ocean.

AW | 03:15 – This was not in the white paper, but this is very interesting .

DK | 03:18 – It is very interesting. That’s right. So, so this is an example of deep-seabed harvesting being a front for essentially cold war. So we’ve known about there are these nodules on the ocean bed floor. They grow a fraction of a millimeter a year in size. They accumulate these, these materials. And the issue that intersects with the new energy economy is that with the rise of the need for materials for solar panels and in particular batteries for electric vehicles, a number of companies have been launched. They have names like the Metals Company, impossible Metals, and others arguing that we should be harvesting these materials...