Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt

EP:22 The $45 Million Medical Debt with Victor Martinez

Welcome to Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt. Today's episode is brought to you by Mvelopes. That's M, like Mary, v-e-l-o-p-e-s. Mvelopes uses the tried and true envelope budget system. All in one easy app. Give every dollar a purpose. Mvelopes.com.  And now, here's Mary. 

Mary Hunt: [00:00:28] Hi, and welcome to another episode of Debt-Proof Living.

I am so happy that you joined me again today, and guess what we're going to talk about? Debt. Yeah, that's really what we talk about a lot. How to get out of debt, how to stay out of debt and live a life where you are not bound by all of the trappings that happen so we get into debt. So, um, many of you have, have read Debt-Proof Living.

You've been with me for many, many years. So I just want to do a little bit of a review talking about debt and what it does to our lives. You know, basically it takes away our options and the deeper in debt we become, the fewer options we have. That's really, really scary, but the good news is that you can get out of debt.

You know, my story, you know, that I got out of an awful lot of debt. I am,  I'm just so struck by the fact that these days debt is so easy to get into, and I'm not talking about emergency kinds of debt. I'm talking about credit card debt, you know, I just don't have the money today. I'm sure I'll have it next week. So I'll just put it on a credit card.

That's probably the most, most dangerous because it's so easy to get into. Society has, our culture has really put a stamp of approval on it. But then there's other kinds of debt. There's a student loans, student loan debt, which has become very, very popular. And, and then there's, you know, buying a new home and then you've got the home debt and then you've got all kinds of things.

You know, I hear from people all the time who are having trouble paying their property taxes. So they put that on payment and then they put their, their, uh, federal income taxes that they owe on payments. Cause they just don't have haven't and pretty soon it just, it builds.

It's crazy how debt can take over our lives. And for a lot of people, when they're in this kind of situation, there's things called medical emergencies. That's what we're going to talk about today is medical debt. How does that affect their lives? You know, statistically, I can tell you this. If you look it up, if you Google it, you're going to find out that medical debt is the leading cause of bankruptcy in our country.

Well, you can kind of figure that out because if people are already in debt, boy, getting hit with a big 30, $40,000 medical debt, and really be the straw that tips over and puts you into that horrible, horrible situation of, of bankruptcy having to make those kinds of choices. Um, one estimate is that more than one in four Americans have trouble paying a recent medical bill.

I can understand that. Um, And, and sometimes those medical bills get pushed because not paying them is not going to give you a consequence as great is not paying your rent or not paying your car payment. And some research says 32% of American workers have medical debt. And over half have defaulted on it. That's not good for a medical industry in this country to having people default and having to go through all of that kind of thing.

So the last stats statistic I'm going to tell you is that among Americans with medical debt, 15% owed $10,000 or more. That is a huge heavy, heavy burden. I've got the most exciting news to tell you about a great, great story. I read about this in the paper. I did, and it hit the news big time and the headline was a church, a church paid off medical debt of many of their parishoners.

It hit, it hit every news station and it was just fantastic. I read about it and I was so,  I was so excited because I wanted to know more, you know, all the questions. How did the church choose who got to have their paid off? How did that happen? I mean, did you have a lot of new members all of a sudden? So here's the exciting part.

I don't have to wonder. And you don't either, because today my very special guest, from Cincinnati, Ohio is Victor Martinez. He is on staff and the Community Development Director for Crossroads Church in Cincinnati, Ohio. And I have a feeling you're just going to love hearing from him. Welcome, welcome Victor!

So glad to have you today on my podcast. 

Victor Martinez: [00:04:55] Thank you. Very excited to be here with you today. 

Mary Hunt: [00:04:58] Um, I just want to set this up and then you're going to tell us all about it, but I've got a million questions. I'll, I'll try to control myself, Crossroads received some BIG media coverage in February. I just told you about that.

I loved it. Crossroads Church was able to work in their community to get more than $45 million of medical debt forgiven in their area. I want you to tell me all about it. Can you just set this up for us a little bit? How this came to be, how you got involved, how you happen to be on staff there and all of that.

We want to know all of it, Victor. 

Victor Martinez: [00:05:40] Yeah, absolutely. Um, well, I'll, I'll start with a little bit of the background of, um, how did I come about to be in this team? So, um, I'm not a pastor, I'm not a social worker by trade. I went to school for engineering. So I graduated with a mechanical engineering degree and I worked several years in the corporate worldand as an engineer, making diapers and making also cleaning products like, like Swiffer, um, and that kind of stuff for a company called Proctor&Gamble. And about a year and a half ago, I moved to actually work on staff full time at Crossroads Church. And at that point, then my job became  looking for opportunities in which we can be part of helping our city with different things.

And medical debt is something that is not only affecting our city. Like you share some of these statistics. It's actually affecting our entire nation. And it's unfortunate, because for most of the debt, and I'll say maybe all of the medical debt. We don't choose to get sick, it's just happens to us. So it's just very difficult situation.

And, um, we heard of a church in Indiana. Actually, we saw it on the news. that they wiped out $4 million of medical debt. And we actually thought, well, how much debt does the people in Cincinnati do people in Cincinnati, half. And we found out that actually $65 million of medical debt and just the city of Cincinnati alone.

And we felt we needed to do something about it. So we talked with our senior leaders, our Senior Pastor Brian Tome. He was super excited. He wanted to make this happen very quickly. So we got to work on it. 

Alright, this 

Mary Hunt: [00:07:19] brings me to a big question here. The church helped to pay off medical debt to the tune of $45 million. Does that mean that Crossroads Church has a bank account with that much extra money in it.

And you just wrote out checks to all these people's debtors. 

Victor Martinez: [00:07:38] Yeah, absolutely not. No. Like most churches our pockets are not super deep. There's a few things that happened here. So one is, uh, we partnered with an organization called RIP Medical Debt and they have been working with a lot of organizations on paying off medical debt for individuals that, um, many of them are not able to pay it off.

And they are able to purchase , and so acquire debt for a ratio about one for every hundred dollars of debt, they, they're able to purchase it for $1. So 1:100 is, is the ratio. So that's one aspect. That we don't have to invest $46 million to get rid of $46 million of medical debt. And then the other, the other aspect is that really, um, we didn't usethe budget of the church for doing this. This was really the people in our community that stepped up to give of their money, to come alongside  folks that are, we're not able to pay their debt, to pay it off. And I think that's really the, the thing to highlight in the story is the generosity of, of people.

Um, when, when we know that there are people that need help, that are hurting our community really just, just rallied around them. So it was very beautiful to see that. 

Mary Hunt: [00:08:56] That's amazing. So you were able to, in essence, I suppose, just putting it simply to negotiate the debt for these people. So if they owed a thousand dollars, the hospital or the doctors were willing to accept $100 to pay that off, is that, is that what you're saying?

Victor Martinez: [00:09:19] Yeah. And that's typically how there's this industry works in terms of, um, when hospitals or places find out that people are not able to pay the debt. They will go and sell this to a collections agency. Um, so if we're in debt, we probably have seen a letter in our mail or two that say, Hey, you owe this debt. This is how much you have to pay. It affects your credit and all that kind of stuff that, you know, I'm pretty sure that, you know, a lot about. So in a similar way, this organization, RIP is able to purchase this debt, but instead of going after people to ask them to pay for it, they go after people that actually can pay it for other people. And that's what we did. 

Mary Hunt: [00:10:00] I imagine it was Christians helping to with the Bible tells us where to bear one burdens. So that is a beautiful thing. Can you imagine if our whole health system was based on that, that those who are healthy, I guess technically that's how insurance works, the healthy, uh, cover the costs of those who are sick. But that's truly amazing.

Julie Emerson: [00:10:26] Let's take a quick break for just a minute. Hi, I'm Julie producer of Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt. You know, many of us have the experience in our lives of living paycheck to paycheck and many people. I know it well, have a difficult time following a budget. But not managing our money as a leading cause of stress in our lives.That's why Mvelopes created a simple, affordable envelope budgeting program that just works. Mvelopes helps you take control of your future by giving every dollar a purpose, every dollar, a purpose, people who use Mvelopes see monthly savings of 10% of their spending within six weeks of getting started and they report less anxiety.

Now, currently Mvelopes is extending their free trial to 60 days for all of their subscriptions. So there's never been a better time to start on a new path. Just click the link in the show notes and sign up today. Risk-free .Okay. Now let's get back to our conversation. 

Mary Hunt: [00:11:32] Now I've got some other questions for you.

Alright. I'm sitting in a service and I know that Crossroads Church is huge. You have multiple campuses and a big organization. So here I'm just picturing myself sitting in this beautiful big auditorium. Personally way down by my debt situation. And I read in the, in the bulletin or in the program, or I hear someone from the platform say that we're going into this campaign or this event where others are, we're going to reach out and we're going to bear one another's burdens and we're going to help pay off medical debt.

My ears would perk up and Whoa, that would be so amazing. So how did you decide who would be qualified or who would be eligible for this program or was it open ended and anyone who had debt? It would be paid off. I don't quite understand that part.

Victor Martinez: [00:12:40] Yeah, absolutely multiple things here. One, uh, I think to answer the bulk of the question, which is how to, how do we know who we're going to bless? Um, we, we didn't know who, who was going to receive a blessing. So this information is confidential and we didn't have access to it. We just knew that there was an amount of money that was outstanding in debt out there.

This is where our partner RIP Medical Debt comes in and they handle all that portion. And. So we, we, we determine, Hey, we have different campuses in different location. We want to see what's in debt around these locations. And we're just going to see how much we fundraise and how much they were able to pay off.

And that's how it was. So, um, In the case of that, there were somebody who had medical debt, for example, in our community, that said, Hey, can I, can I be a part of this? Which had happened. Which it happened. Um, We were not in a position to necessarily, like, purchase their debt just the way this program works. So what we did is we many years ago, Uh, we started a, um, place in Cincinnati called the City Link Center and it was with the intent of helping people get out of poverty, specifically, uh, fight generational poverty.

Uh, so we have a lot of resources for folks that are going through different hardships to, to get some access to tools and help. So for those folks that were not able to be blessed through, through that program. We had an opportunity for, to come alongside them. And I think many times some of this debt leads to other challenges.

So really the purpose of City Link there was to just partner with them, be there with them, for them to meet, uh, to help them with their needs.

Mary Hunt: [00:14:27] That is just wonderful. Part of my Debt-Proof Living program and what I've taught people and have led people out of debt. The absolute essence are these five elements of Debt-Proof Living and one of them is giving., How important it is that we all learn to give because that's what kills greed in our lives. And previous podcasts, my listeners know, if you've listened to The Seven Money Rules Series, part of everything you bring into your life, everything is handed to you. All of your income. Part of it needs to be given away. And that, that is amazing to me. That's the way one of the ways to stay out of debt is also in a way to get out of debt.

And so, um, when I think of Crossroads Church teaching stewardship, that we should be givers. How important is that to your whole program at the church? 

Victor Martinez: [00:15:24] Yeah, I, it's very important. Um, it's a big biblical principle. Uh, you know, the, the Bible is full of wisdom. There's just a lot of different topics that you could pick and you can, you can just get some good insights into, and for those of us that are believers, these, these wisdoms become principles of life and how we want to live.

So one of them is. giving, to your point. Um, and we talk a lot about the principle of tithing, which builds discipline. You know, it's not just a faith thing, it's also a math thing. You know, it builds discipline in terms of how can, can we do this? Um, what also is you alluded to this it's this concept of us giving away the things that we have because ultimately eventually actually either we will give them more or when we kick the bucket, you know, they, they go away, you know, they go out to somebody else.

So we, I say this is something that is true for. I will say that from my understanding of the Christian world. But even I see this in other faith expressions, how the importance of, of giving money out to other people and not even knowing what happens. And that was actually the context of this initiative.

We were, we were talking about money. We spent six weeks talking about money in a church, which is it. We don't do often, as you can imagine, is a. It's a very interesting topic to have in the church setting. In that weekend in particular, where we announced that we were going to, to try to see how much money we could come up with.

We were talking about the power of multiplication and how, when we give the blessings that we receive, when God, um, uh, from, from God specifically, When we give away, we have no expectation on what's coming back. When we do it for the, from the depths of our heart. And not because we think we're going to receive something, but just because, um, that's what we're called to do.

We're called to serve the least of these. And, and I, and I think that's probably one of the things I've made this so impactful is that our folks really genuinely, from the core of their heart, they had a desire to bless other people because they know that they are blessed. 

Mary Hunt: [00:17:38] My producer and I were talking before we started the show. And she told me that, um, well, first of all, I absolutely believe that it's impossible to out-give God. Giving is, is one of those things in our lives that we can't really explain how in giving we receive. But I know that proven it over and over and over again.  But she mentioned that that your pastor and the pastoral staff kind of put out there a very unusual money back guarantee.

Victor Martinez: [00:18:07] Yeah. 

Mary Hunt: [00:18:07] Can you tell us about that?

Victor Martinez: [00:18:11] Yeah, absolutely. It is. Um, it is an interesting and different concept for sure. But, um, yes, we did that also within the context of that series that we were talking, actually, it was inspired from a, from a book called The Blessed Life. And, um, we were inviting people to really explore the concept of tithing. Tithing is counter-cultural and the concept of giving, giving money.

And we are going to receive more blessings sounds, counter intuitive. Like we are told in our, in our American culture that we just need to accumulate money. That's, you know, that's what it's designed for. So we just put it out there for folks to say, Hey, if, if really you're afraid that, um, this is not gonna work out.

Then we want to make sure that you get to experience it first hand. So what we said is that if you want to explore tithing for three months, and at the end of three months, you see that there are no changes to your life. Some of them could be financial, but others things that are a little bit harder to measure, like maybe relationships improve, or maybe other things.

If you don't see any of that, there's no need for, for us keeping your money. We will return it. And I will say that I am not maybe we, we returned money to one person out of the hundreds of people that tried it. Because people were experiencing life transformation when they step into that space

Mary Hunt: [00:19:33] God keeps His promises. He says I will bless you, 

Victor Martinez: [00:19:37] Absolutely!

Mary Hunt: [00:19:38] So anyway, I want to stand up and share, this is the best story ever.

I just absolutely love that. So Victor, tell me, um, did you and your team at Crossroads, uh, the size of your church alone tells me that you are very influential in that city.  And how, how does Crossroads reach beyond their campus to affect, to bless the community? 

Victor Martinez: [00:20:03] Yeah, absolutely. Well, this COVID situation has been really interesting in the fact that we have been blessed in being able to share our what we know of, of the, you know, of our faith through mediums like social media or TV.

So, um, we almost, we might today, who knows, be at over 500,000 followers on Facebook, for example.  When this all started we're maybe at 30,000., Which is, that it's, that in itself is just crazy. And a lot of those folks are people from all over the nation. In fact, that is a lot of people, the world that are just being able to, to see that.

So, um, W we, we think we are, you know, we are giving the opportunity to really, um, bring good news and really share with, um, what does really following Jesus looks like, because with the same token, there, there are other things out there that are, unfortunately, not, that are positive that are, that are going on.  But that is let us one thing that it's one way that we're communicating across multiple people.

But also since very early in our, in the foundation of the Crossroads, our Crossroads Church, we have always been looking at how can we bless people in other places. So we, we started a hospice in South Africa. It was the biggest at the time, for example, many years ago. And we, you know, our community put in a lot of money to make that happen.

We still today, we invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in helping fight sex trafficking in India. And we have efforts in other countries,  Nicaragua, Bolivia. Uh, and I'm pretty sure I'm missing others. Puerto Rico. Where we're, we're really trying to make our resources available for, for those people to be able to, um, solve other basic needs, but also get to hear the good news.

So. Yeah, that that's something that we're, we try very intentional beyond the, the United States, but also within the city, we have this example of medical debt. During COVID. Our community again contributed over $230,000 that were used for supporting medical professionals in our city so they have access to childcare, uh, at the beginning of this pandemic, when everything was being closed. Food for people that needed that. And I could go on and on. There's different examples. And every single time it has been our people saying yes to giving for the benefit of other people that they might not even know. 

Mary Hunt: [00:22:35] Wonderful. It's just fabulous. And I think that that is carrying out what Jesus told us to do.

Care for each other. Share the gospel. To care for those in poverty. The  widows, especially.  I'm thinking about he people who were so blessed having this amount just removed from the shoulders. Does, does Crossroads then have a program, a plan? I suppose many, many churches do have. um, where you're helping people learn to get out of debt and to stay out. Because debt is a horrible thief.

You know the Bible says that the lender becomes the master of the borrower. That's a horrible position to be in. So can you tell us, I mean, you just didn't. I hope he just didn't leave the people here. They probably still come to your church and it wasn't a wonderful opportunity. It must be to help them then learn to manage money.

Victor Martinez: [00:23:34] Yeah, we have definitely programs to talk about finances and how to help people with their finances. Um, we're also, um, talk about it through the lens of, um, our faith. Also, we, we, we bring that to that conversation, like you said, you know, um, That is, it's a form of bondage. And in fact, one of the reasons why we're so attracted to doing this is because when we gave out the money, we didn't know who this was going to, the person that received the letter in the mail, um, they didn't know who paid this debt.

And in a way we feel this is exact same thing that Jesus,did for us, even before we knew who he was, he paid our debt. And so we thought what a great opportunity to have really. Share what that, what that looks like in a physical, tangible way today. And that's what we tried doing. So, yeah. 

Mary Hunt: [00:24:27] Fantastic. You know, I've, I've, um, been to Cincinnati a couple of times, myself.

Usually it was a speaking tour too, or something like that. I don't really know anybody who lives here, 

Victor Martinez: [00:24:38] well, I was goining to say... now you know me. So when you're around, uh, now you can claim that, you know, somebody, 

Mary Hunt: [00:24:44] But, I'll tell you something. I know something very, very special about 

your city...chili!

Victor Martinez: [00:24:50] Well, you put me in a tough spot in terms of that chili. This is a controversial topic. Um, yes, Chili is an important part of our city. I wouldn't say it's the highlight, but again, I was born and raised in Puerto Rico. Um, my concept of chili was different. so, you know, some people love it and some people don't, um, I've got, I've grown to like it at this point.

So.

Mary Hunt: [00:25:13] That's good, that's good. Well, when I was there, that the host of the in fact I spoke at a, another church. It wasn't Crossroads, but Vineyard Church. And they took me out for, for a meal after the service. And they wanted me, to show, to show me, Cincinnati's s best. And so they, they preface this by, we're going to take you someplace and we want you to try something.

You may not like it. That's okay if you don't like it. We just want you to know that we're really crazy about what they call Cincinnati chili, or I guess it's really Skyline Chili, which has become known as Cincinnati chili. I, I sat there and I, it looked fabulous. You know how it, how they serve at Victor. It's just, it's amazing.

And my listeners, just  Google, Cincinnati chili. You'll know what I'm talking about. So I take a bite, because it looks all the world like spaghetti with meat sauce. It's served over noodles. And so I take a bite, you know, you want to be kind with your host and all.I'm in a public place. You take a bite at this, and it was such a shock because it was nothing

what I expected, ever. I thought how can I get out of it? How could I not swallow? And how can I get out of this place fast? But the most remarkable thing happened. I took a second bite. I needed a second bite and I mean, by the third or fourth bite, well, you've got, gotta try Cincinnati chili. It's just absolutely amazing. I could not finish what was for the lunch.

So I actually took it in a  to-go container and took it back to my hotel room, which was kind of silly because I don't believe I've ever eaten anything  I had left over in a hotel room. I mean, just honestly, the middle of the night I woke up and my salivary glands were going crazy and I got up and I reheated that in the microwave.

And to this day, I tell you what. I love that stuff and I've learned. I ended out in the way I live in Colorado. We don't have skyline chili here, but I've learned how to make it myself...yes, because people, can we come over and ask, can we come over and have Cincinnati chili?  I don't give my secrets that I buy the spice packet online. So yes. Wonderful church. Well, at least two that I know of now many.

Victor Martinez: [00:27:35] Yeah. Many wonderful people. I think more importantly. And yes, a good chili. So we'll, I'll give you that. 

Mary Hunt: [00:27:42] Next time I'm there, we're going out for chili.  Okay, Victor? 

Victor Martinez: [00:27:45] Yes, we are.

Mary Hunt: [00:27:46] One last question for all of us. Where does, where does Crossroads go from here? What is on your radar? Where, where are you and where are you headed? 

Victor Martinez: [00:27:56] Yeah. Yeah, that, that's a great, that's a great question.

You know, our, our mission is a connecting seekers to a community of Christ followers that are changing the world. And, um, and that's what we want to do. We really want to change the world and, um, There are certain areas that we know we're called to right now. But we also, there's a bunch that will be going into, that we have no idea today. Um, we are, one of the things that I, I think, uh, you know, we will see soon is we're very committed to racial reconciliation. That's, um, that's an important topic, uh, today in our country and we are. We're increasing our investment in that area of bringing more people together to have a conversation, um, that hopefully leads to some healing.So that's one area for sure that we see. I don't think we're done with medical debt. So stay tuned for that. Uh, maybe you'll come back and talk again about what part two will look like. I don't know. I can't make a commitment on behalf of Crossroads at this point, but I see that. And I say, we, we will continue to invest in some of these places that I share abroad, fighting sex trafficking in India and locally, um, and other things.

So, uh, we'll see what, what we'll bring. But one thing is for sure is that we will continue going. We will continue being the church, um, and we won't stop until we're done. 

Mary Hunt: [00:29:23] I just thank you so much for being with me today. This has been wonderful. And I would just like to close with this . God's word tells us, tells us, if you will just trust me and that's the problem.

I think that's why we're so hesitant to give. God says, trust me. Trust me and see if I will not open up the windows of heaven. He'll pour a blessing on you is that you cannot even handle. It will be so great. I think that, that you, Victor, your team and all the people, that church, that amazing church in Cincinnati, Crossroads Community Church, I think that you are

testimony to God keeping his promise. It looks like a blessing has been poured out on you. And with that blessing comes responsibility and we just can't wait to see what comes out of this. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for following the Lord and for being such a wonderful instrument of his grace and mercy.

Thank you, Victor. 

Victor Martinez: [00:30:26] Thank you,  Mary. 

Julie Emerson: [00:30:30]

Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt was created and hosted by, Mary Hunt. Produced by Julie Emerson, with Harold Hunt, Executive Producer.

Save time. Save money. Every Day.  Make it easy on yourself! Become part of the community and subscribe for free at www.everydaycheapskate.com. That's where you will find all the ways you can follow Mary, Everyday Cheapskate, and Debt-Proof Living.

Thanks for listening! 

EP:21 The $5 Dollar Dinner Mom, guest Erin Chase

Julie Emerson: [00:00:00] Welcome to Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt. Today's episode is brought to you by Mvelopes.  That's M, like Mary, v-e-l-o-p-e-s. Mvelopes uses the tried and true envelope budget system all in one easy app. Give every dollar a purpose! Mvelopes.com. And now, Here's Mary! 

Mary Hunt: [00:00:27]Hello, Everybody! I'm so happy  you're with me today. This is Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt. And this is very, very exciting because guess what? We have a guest . I'm so thrilled that Erin Chase is the $5 dinner mom is going to join us today. Welcome Erin! 

Erin Chase: [00:00:47]Hello. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to chat today.

Mary Hunt: [00:00:53]This is great. I have followed you for so long. You won't believe it. But first I want to, I want to let my readers, my listeners know more about  Erin.  Erin Chase, she's known as the $5 Dinner Mom is -  I know, nobody can believe it. We're going to have to get into that with her. She says that she has a little problem. She cannot make a meal that costs more than $5. Even if she tries her brain just will no longer allow it. Through her websites and classes, $5dinners.com, $5mealplan, Grocery Budget Makeover, My Freeze Easy, My Efficient Kitchen, Electric Pressure Cooking 101. Erin now is on a mission to help us spend a whole lot less of our hard earned money on groceries. Erin is a Texas native graduate of Texas Christian University. You know, the TCU Horned Frogs. A few short months after graduation, she found herself-Whoa- in the Dominican Republic as a missionary and a high school teacher. She learned all she needed to know about meal planning and grocery shopping on a budget. All in a third world country using foreign currency.

Back in the late summer of 2008, Aaron began couponing loving the challenge of coming up with meals that costs under $5, $5 for the entire meal. That's just not per person. And one night as she was cleaning up the dishes from dinner, she thought of this phrase $5 dinners. The first website was born. Now she and her husband and their four boys live in Texas.

And when she's not couponing, grocery shopping or blogging. Erin enjoys date nights, training for and running half marathons, hanging out outside, reading and hanging out with her girlfriends. I'm so happy you're here, Erin. I can't wait to learn more. First. I have a little story to tell. I was sitting at my computer.

I can almost tell you about the year. I'm not gonna, I might be a little bit off. But I was getting a lot of email, a lot of things popping up and there was this [00:03:00] TV chef named Rachel Ray, who popped up on my screen. I don't know why, but she had a guest on her show. And it was this amazing woman. Young girl actually looks just not the same as you look today.

Exactly. She had her on her show and it was just the most amazing thing that she was confident that she could make dinners for $5, not just per person. And you blew Rachel Ray and her audience away. Now tell me, had you been doing this for a long time or was this kind of new for you? 

Erin Chase: [00:03:40]Well, when I, first of all, I love that you caught that segment. They- I've been on Rachel's show twice. And the first time was in April of 2009 and I started $5 dinners in August of 2008. So it wasn't that long after. And they featured me in that first segment in a People Who Were Saving Money Across America. It was just, you know, random people. I just happened to have a blog that went with it and really how I ended up there is I just, she and, Whoopi Goldberg was a guest on her show. We're talking, you know, around the same time I started the blog, they were talking about, like a fat tax ,or something like that. Like insurance companies were going to charge people if they didn't lose weight. And like, this was, you know, 2008 and they were talking about how eating healthy was too expensive.

And I was like, excuse me, I have a few things to say about that. So I wrote in on there, like. On their website, just like wrote into the, like, have me on your show. I wasn't, I mean, I maybe wanted to be on the show, but I didn't really know. And. Six months after. So that was, that would have been August. So it was not long.

 I, we taped and it aired very quickly. So probably March, they called me and were like, Hey, we'd like what you have to say to me, like what you're doing, we're going to send a crew to your house. And I was like, wait, what? So yeah, there I was. And then I went back again to share some recipes from one of my cookbooks, a couple of years later when those were published.

Mary Hunt: [00:05:13]Well, that helped to launch your career. Definitely. But I'll tell you something, Erin, I have followed you. I am so excited that we may be able to do things together in the future for my audience, because you fill a niche that nobody else does. But now listen, I mean, you've got to be absolutely truthful with me here. You have four sons and a husband. Okay. Five male eaters and yourself, $5 for a dinner. Tell us what, what does that mean? Does that mean $5 for just, a one dish or is that, is that the meal? Explain that to us. 

Erin Chase: [00:05:57]So I think that it's more of a different way of thinking about your groceries and a different way of thinking about how much you're spending on a  meal. So when I started $5 dinners, it was in 2008 and I had two very young boys. now those boys are teenagers. And they, you know, it was a little bit different now I would say I'm making six, seven, maybe $8 dinners. It just cause I need more protein to feed these people. But the idea is don't get hung up on the $5, but I want you to hang up on and I want you to dial in on is how much are you spending per meal and what can you do to reduce the overall meal costs? Right? So when $5dinners very first started, and I still try to go for these price points, but it really we'll get into this in a little bit, but the protein cost is really the most important cause that's generally the most expensive part of any meal.

So $5 a breakdown of a $5 meal would be 2.50 a person for protein. A $1.50ish for veggies or fruit, and then $1ish [00:07:00] for starch and starch is generally whatever the carbs are. Let's say, if you're doing a, you know, kind of a food plate balanced meal, so starches are super cheap. I mean, you can do rice for four people for 20 cents, right? Like, or less even. So it really, if you're just keeping it very simple and that's what I want you to think about. I want you to think about. What can I do to reduce costs kind of around your plate, if you will? And the easiest to start with is the meat, the meat, because, and that's also the most expensive. So I think it's the most important to start with. And I think that's what I want you to do. I want you to say, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to think about my meals. I'm not going to spend more than maybe you need to do $10. Maybe it's $8. Like for me right now, it's eight, the max, but I try to get it closer to five or six.

we, you know, it, I think it's all about balance too. So if you do have like a more expensive meal, we really love salmon. that's just one of, that's probably our favorite seafood across the [00:08:00] entire family. And so if I'm going to put salmon on the menu one week, then I'm also gonna do like a big old rice and beans that week as well. Does that make sense? So it kind of balances out that way too. 

Mary Hunt: [00:08:17] I love this. And I have enough questions to ask you for a thousand more podcasts. I mean, my brain is just overflowing because not only do I have my own questions and what I want you to tell my audience, I have my email inbox that is just loaded with people who are hungry, no pun intended to learn how they can do better with their money.  And so I want them to know you want them to find you. We're going to do everything we can in our power going forward to make sure that they can do that. So I just have a couple of really fun questions for you. maybe not so fun, but they'll be fun for us. Tell us the details. Do you shop like once every year and get everything all at once or do you do it every day or every week?

Do you have a plan? Do you go to many, many stores? Those are the, I'll stop it there. 

Erin Chase: [00:09:18]I think you have to find the right cadence for yourself. And I don't want to say you have to do it this way. Cause I don't, there's lots of personalities and lots of scenarios. Some people live in the country and really can only get to a good store once a month kind of deal my personal shopping M.O. and it has been this way for almost the entire time of my $5 dinners  life is weekly shopping with one warehouse run. Which I've, I think, I have been a warehouse store member for maybe seven, eight, eight years now. One of those about every six weeks. So I'll go to the warehouse store every six weeks, maybe five. It kind of depends on this during this pandemic time, it's been a little bit more frequently, but then I'm getting less at the grocery store. I've kind of shifted it around a little bit with the whole stocking up sort of scenario that we're currently in. And, but typically I prefer to get groceries once a week, get the fresh produce.  Meat most of the time comes from a warehouse store, but then I'll sometimes mix it in from the grocery store. It really kinda depends on what's on sale and you know, how I'm doing freezer meals is what it really comes down to for me is when that, when it's happening. So really it's a, for me, it's a cycle of weekly meal planning mixed in with kind of a freezer meal set up once-ish a month. Every five, six weeks, depending on when I'm doing my warehouse store run. And so that's been my cadence because that works really well for me. Both my personality with my schedule with, the sales cycles and all of those things just kind of fit to that particular cadence. other, you know, depending on your situation, I we've heard a lot from people that the going once a week is not enough. And so we also recommend doing [00:11:00] like every four-ish days, every three to four days, so maybe twice a week shopping. and in that case, You would want to be really a lot more granular with what you're buying so that you don't start overbuying. Does that make sense? And so you just have to be really mindful about when you do make a change like this in the way that you're shopping for food, being mindful that it's, it's working for you and you're not overspending. And it's kinda not working against you, if you will. And you know, we, I personally experienced that this last couple of months with having to shift. both budget dollars and the way I shop with the whole stocking up thing and not going out to eat anymore.

And all those different things that's kind of shifted around, but it was very mindful of that shift happening. And I'm very mindful that that shifts it's already shifting back to my typical cadence. And so, I really think you've just got to consider those different factors and make your food dollars and your time shopping, whether that's planning and putting in a grocery pickup order, or you're getting into the store and buzzing through it, as fast as you can, you know, with your mask on and your sanitizer in hand, you know, like whatever it is but just being very mindful of the way that you are spending your food dollars. 

Julie Emerson:  [00:12:36]Let's take a quick break for just a minute. Okay. Hi, I'm Julie. Producer a Debt Proof Living with Mary Hunt. You know, many of us have the experience in our lives of living paycheck to paycheck. Many people. I know it well, have a difficult time following a budget. But not managing our money as a leading cause of stress in our lives. 

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And currently Mvelopes is extending their free trial to 60 days for all of their subscriptions. So there's never been a better time to start on a new path. Just click the link in the show notes and sign up today. Risk-free. Okay. Now let's get back to our conversation.  

Mary Hunt: [00:13:41] You know, you mentioned that the pandemic and. it, it has changed our lives, in, in lots of ways. And I know that you lost your father recently. you've been through a lot. You had, I think you had some housing issues, right?

Didn't your house flood or something, you know, it's, it's, it's easy to stick to all these plans when life goes, as we plan. But I'm just thinking how wonderful it is. And I, I want to ask you the impact that your, that this whole thing, where you have your money in control and you're doing all that.

Did, Did that make things easier? I mean, I just want to know how, how do you get to really, really tough times without just throwing it all up in there as that can't do this anymore, you know? I can't stand this budgeting thing anymore. I mean, how have you gotten through this? 

Erin Chase:[00:14:36] Well, what, Oh, goodness. Then where were we? How long do we have? yeah, we have had a very rough six months. our house flooded, well, six months ago this week, and then I lost my dad unexpectedly a couple months after that. And then the pandemic hit the following month. And so it was, it's just been a very, grief-ridden on multiple levels. You know, the loss, we didn't lose anything in our house per se, but just the loss of routine and the loss of Just being, we had to move into a rental home. So being somewhere else, you know, that's that. And then of course, grief from losing my dad. Has just it's, that's still obviously going on and then of course the grief of just losing our, our lives, everybody, what, what, however it, the pandemic affected you, everybody was affected in some way. And I think that, in some ways, you know, the very first thing that I did when the whole pandemic thing hit was what are we not spending money on now?

That's the very first thing I wrote down. Like maybe the first weekend or so. And I finally cued in of, like how things are changing. Things are changing very fast. What are we not spending money on? We're not going out to eat. We're not buzzing through drive-throughs we're not picking up, a snack at the gas station, like all these different things.

I wasn't going to the gym. And so that was the first thing, that I did. And I think that what ultimately it comes down to, you know, both on the, on the money level and on the, just like get me through the day level. really is two things is, is grabbing the silver lining, whatever that may be. So with our house, the silver lining was, I got a pretty much a whole new house. mostly covered by insurance. We did a couple of new upgrades, but it was very clear to me very quickly that despite there was water everywhere and like rugs were soaked and gross. I could still see that we would be getting a new house out of this, you know, and I, with, with, with my dad, Restored not restored. There were never any bad relationships, but just renewed friendships and relationships with my siblings and family members. Such a gift. Even despite all of the, the grief in, in the, it was very dramatic and traumatic, the way that it all happened so quickly and unexpectedly. So I think that even in the midst of the trial, let's say there’s— you've got to, you've got to grab the silver linings and so, you know, pandemic it's. Okay, now I have more time to spend with my kids. Like we have two teenagers, you know, teenagers got it. They get a bad rap, but it's been such a gift getting to spend time with them in a way that I, that, that even just actually not long ago, I thought, okay, we are going to have a driver soon. And I remember as soon as I started driving, I was like, BYE!  I got places to go and people to see. Right? And so I just kept thinking, I've only got a couple months. Left with this kid before he's really setting into that independence business. And so I think that, you know, I, I sit in the feelings and I sit in the grief a lot.

There's a lot of resting. There's a lot of stillness that happens. but I think that in all of that, being able to focus on the positive and be able to grab onto the, the things that I'm really grateful for. And being able to see the positives, even in the night. Oh, there were many times where I wanted to throw my hands up, but the kids having to do school at home and you know, all the trying to work.

And, but I saw this is an opportunity that I need to redefine my work schedule and I re redefined my entire work week. I've never worked weekends. Ever. No, thank you. I'm good. I don't want to work the weekends. I have worked every single weekend since spring break week. Well, since the pandemic started, but that's because I wasn't working in the mornings and I have shifted around.  And so I think it's being able to recognize and be willing to adapt and change quickly. And then of course, kind of grabbing it and focusing onto the silver lining. So I don't know that that has a whole lot to do with money. But I think that it, when we're in a hard time, when we're in an emergency situation, right, we just moved back into her house.

There was a hailstorm five days after we moved into our house. We have to get another new roof. We just got a new roof four years ago. So it's just like, okay, alright. But there's, you know, other plans that we had with, with our house and with our finances. Hold! Hold, please. We got to get a new roof first.  And so, you know, you just, you just have to be, I don't know, kinda gotta go with the punches and got to make tough decisions and got to wait on things. and also grateful for, you know, our contingency fund, and grateful for, you know, my husband and I both work from home on the internet. I've been affected a little bit, but grateful to not have had a job loss. I'm grateful to my husband's in business. He lost a few in person events and classes, but really, he's been able to just shift his focus too. To the other kind of side of his business that wasn't, you know, dealing with live in person. So it's, it's really, yeah. I guess all of that, 

Mary Hunt: [00:20:33]I couldn't agree with you more Erin, and, and while maybe, you know, your, your face, you teach about food and budgeting and all that kind of thing. And I'm kind of similar, you know, the whole thing about money. I have come to believe that money is so important to us because it's very important to God. I think it's absolutely true that he that's how God cares for us. He doesn't drop the clothes out of sky and you know, the food doesn't show up on the front step.  I mean, the conduit is God. He sends money into our lives, and asks us to be good stewards of it. And. For what you have gone through is, is horrific. But I think that because you know how to plan and that you are prepared and, and you haven't spent every single nickel and face the pandemic just out of despair. That it's coming through.

But, and I think for all of us, I think everyone listening to me, we've all gone through this. And I think that it's very much like mourning. I have not faced in the past few weeks, which you are, but I think there are stages of grief. And for myself, I know I was, I was devastated when they shut everything down and my grandkids could go to school anymore. And it was so sad. I mean, I wept tears of just sobbing. What has happened? And then, and then I go through, you know, I'm sorry to say, but I think it's part of it. I've gone to a real angry stage as well. 

Julie Emerson: [00:22:07] Now I have a quick question for you, Erin. One of the things that the quarantine has given us is a lot more time with our family and a lot more time to do projects with each other and to really spend time together.

[00:20:38] And if we could just talk a little bit about what's coming up for you and what moms and grandmas and dads and grandpas or aunts and uncles can do with their kids in the kitchen that would be— a we'd love to hear it. So can you tell us more? 

Erin Chase: [00:22:35] Yeah. So the week of spring break, March 9th, 10th, 11, I don't know, somewhere in there.

when the  whole, you know, quarantine was being talked about and hadn't really started yet, I was at the gym and I kept thinking. If school gets canceled, what am I going to do with my boys? That's I mean, I was on the treadmill for half an hour and I couldn't stop thinking about it. And right towards the end of my run, I was like-kids cooking show live on Facebook. And I was like, okay. So I get home and I am actually leaving to go with my friend to their. ranch, river house, for the weekend of spring break.  We've done that for many years and I was like, I better put something about this on Facebook. So, you know, because we're going to start on Monday because by that point in the afternoon, our school had just announced that they were canceled. So I put it on Facebook. Fun fact. There's no wifi or cell service at the ranch. So I had no idea what was going to happen. So I put it, I put the recipe list. I had written it down on a piece of paper. My husband is driving. I'm making a Canva image on  my phone and I posted it right before we lost, like cell service. And so the next afternoon, my friend and I walked down to the neighbors where they have wifi and I checked in and I was like, Oh, okay, we're going to have a couple of people with us on Monday. So then I posted like an ingredient list real quick. And I'm like, Texting Lauren, like Help! We got to get this out! Like, go, go, go. So anyways, the kids and I did cooking lessons, we did four weeks of 20 lessons, plus the freezer cooking session over in March and then into the end of April and really, you know, It was just such a gift to us. And it's been such a gift to other people. Like I haven't cooked lunch since then.

Nothing they're home all the time. They make their own lunches. Most of the time make their own breakfast. Sometimes I jump in there cause it's fun to be all together there in the morning in the kitchen. And really, you know, it's taught them so much. And it's been, you know, I love to cook. I'm a food blogger.

I'm here to, I am here for it! but it's also nice to equip them and to kind of work myself out of a job. So we did all of those lessons and decided probably about halfway through,  that I wanted this to be longer than just through this, this quarantine. I wanted it to be longer. So I, I changed it from, you know, school cancellation kids, cooking lessons to whisk kid, which is a play on whisk and whiz.

So I want you to be, I want your kids to be whizzes in the kitchen and I want to help them cultivate kind of a lifelong love of cooking and feeding themselves and really just starting with. Recipes that are, both kid-friendly and budget friendly and simple to make, but also have kind of cooking strategies that would apply to other types of recipes, you know, like a skillet meal, when you know how to make a pasta skillet meal, which is kind of like a homemade sort of Hamburger Helper, you  can make dozens, hundreds of different things with just that strategy. So that's, that's what I want to do. So we turn that into a curriculum in a, in a workbook and a guidebook. That we have with stickers, which I'm super excited for the stickers! I know I'm such a nerd and certificates for completion. And so really, you know, it's got everything you need recipes, the guided videos, the shopping lists, and the videos are essentially I'm teaching my boys in my kitchen in the same way as if you I'm also teaching your child in your kitchen.

 It's, it's filmed and taught in that way. So all you gotta do is get the ingredients, which you probably have a lot of them already. And then just let, let me teach them, you know, while you're kind of watching from the corner. So that's the idea behind WhizKid, which I'm super excited about. It has been, I'm actually going to have my boys.

They only, I worked with one boy at a time. And so they learned certain things with me and I'm going to have them go through this summer, the other things that they didn't learn yet. So they'll get their whole complete go at it with everything. And, you know, it's still very unknown. At least the time of we're recording this, what school's going to look like in the fall.

And so it's this isn't. You know, this is meant to be a tool that can help you any time of year, not just the summer, not just in a quarantine, not just when school's canceled. but it is, it is something that, you know, will enrich your kids in your life, with, with, doing the lessons.

Julie Emerson: [00:27:15]Yeah. We're looking forward to it.

Mary Hunt: [00:27:18]I’m so thankful that you shared that with us. And, and again, our hearts go out to you for what you have been through, but oh my goodness. The growth and the fact that you've got four young men and a husband there with you and, what God is going to do in their lives is just fantastic. So I know that we've just barely scratched the surface. We've talked about the big picture things. I hope we can do this again. And as I said, I hope that we can do a lot of things. I [00:26:00] want my listeners to know that Erin has a prolific, wealth, I guess it would be called a, I don't know a bank of intellectual, one wonderfulness, where she teaches at her recipes.

Oh my goodness. If we could all just learn to cook as well, and to spend as little, it would just impact our lives so much, especially going forward. Because I'm not going to hide the fact that I truly believe we are headed for some, some time, years of inflation. I mean, now, that you can't print the kind of money our company, our country has printed that had to help us get through all of this without that having a longterm effect. So. We are blessed to know ahead of time. We've got to learn to be frugal. We got to learn how to do everything for less to cook at home. And the queen of this is, is Erin Chase, the $5 dinner mom. So thank you so much, Erin. We're going to put into the show notes below all of her contacts, how you can learn more about Erin, how you can start doing so much better.

Stick with me. Stick close because we're all in this together and we're going to save time and money every single day. 

Erin Chase:[00:28:56] Thank you for having me. It's a joy to get to share with you guys. And I look forward to more. 

Mary Hunt: [00:29:01]Thank you, Erin. 

Julie Emerson: [00:29:05]

Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt was created and hosted by, Mary Hunt. Produced by Julie Emerson, with Harold Hunt, Executive Producer.

Save time. Save money. Every Day.  Make it easy on yourself! Become part of the community and subscribe for free at www.everydaycheapskate.com. That's where you will find all the ways you can follow Mary, Everyday Cheapskate, and Debt-Proof Living.

Thanks for listening! 

EP:20 Giving Away My Age with guest Bob Lotich, Seedtime.com

Welcome to Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt. Today's episode is brought to you by Mvelopes.  That's M, like Mary, v-e-l-o-p-e-s. Mvelopes uses the tried and true envelope budget system all in one easy app. Give every dollar a purpose! Mvelopes.com. And now, Here's Mary! 

Mary Hunt: [00:00:32] Everyone. I'm so happy to have you back with me on this episode of Debt Proof Living. And boy, am I excited! This is a first for us. We're new to this business anyway, but this is an absolute first. We're having an interview! I have invited a guy that I have known of and spoken with, not met face to face yet.

Perhaps that'll happen someday soon, but I have followed Bob Lotich on his blogs now for several years, lots of years. And I gotta tell you this guy's got it all together. I love what Bob teaches. He, he comes at personal finance and money management from a Biblical viewpoint. Now I'm not saying that this is a church service or a Bible study necessarily, but I'm telling you Bob 

and I share so many values because we are both followers of Jesus Christ. And if that cannot help, but to color our lives and the way that we handle everything, the way that we manage our money. And the way that we teach. So I am thrilled to death to have Bob with us today. Now, let me tell you a little bit about him.

He is a certified educator in personal finance. That means he gets to put at the end of his name, CEPF and he started a blog called SeedTime. it was originally called Christian Personal Finance or ChristianPF is probably the way you might remember it way back in 2007. That was not that long ago because I started way back in 1997 online.

So. We go back a long time. But anyway, his passion is to help fellow believers like me and like many of you to learn how to manage your money wisely., His personal mission and the mission of his blog Seedtime, is to make, save, grow and give money to benefit others. Isn't that awesome? I love that. Make, save, grow and give. After all says Bob, life, isn't about the accumulation of things, but it's about how much we can make a difference in this world by giving.

And I gotta put my parentheses in here. We are certainly in a time right now during this global disruption, our lives have been so disrupted. what better time then we can look at the whole world to find ways that we can help and give and serve. In 2017 SeedTime donated 36% of all e-course sales to Feed My Starving Children, which has provided 79,000 meals to hungry kids around the world.

That is  just amazing. Amazing. Once Bob realized that by paying off his debt, he could fund God's kingdom  instead of paying interest to banks, it provided a deeper level of motivation for him and his wife to get out of debt. That sealed the deal. Bob and Linda spent the next couple of years paying off their $46,000 of debt in their first years of marriage.

Bob also has a passion for helping entrepreneurs, get their business ideas off the ground. And he's written two fabulous books, helping bloggers and want-to-be-bloggers build and grow their blogs. 

So if you have that in your mind, you really, really need to check out Bob Lotich.  Anyway, when Bob isn't working, he is likely hanging out with his wife, Linda, their kids, Alden, Valerie, and Oliver.

Working on his garden. Eating some artisanal dark chocolate .Playing his guitar or riding his motorcycle. And sometimes, you ready? All at the same time!  Now I have to see a picture of this. And so without any further hesitation or delay welcome, Bob!

Bob Lotich: [00:04:13] Mary, thank you so much. It is an honor to be here. It's an honor to be speaking with you.

You've been a role model and a mentor for many, many years, and I'm just thrilled to be able to chat. 

Mary Hunt: [00:04:24] we're so happy to have you here. Bob, there's so much that you could teach us about. All of us! And, you know, I put myself in that too, because some of these lessons, we have to keep learning over and over and over again.

And, and with what we've gone through recently, I am certain that many people listening to me now are much more aware of the need to plan, prepare to manage their money well. So let's get right to it. What was your inspiration for beginning your blog SeedTime, and then tell us where did that name, that word come from, SeedTime? The name of that you named your blog.  

Bob Lotich: [00:04:59] So in terms of actually starting the blog, like you alluded to it originally was Christian PF. And, and for me, I, I was in a mess financially. I was just in debt up to my eyeballs and just didn't know how to move out of that spot in life. And once I discovered that the Bible actually talked a lot about money and, and then once I discovered that some of this advice was actually still relevant for today.

So even this book, that's thousands of years old and actually had timely and relevant, you know, age old wisdom that was still beneficial for us today. then I started getting interested in this and, and I was, you know, learning a whole bunch of practical things about money. I was reading every magazine and book

I could get my hands on. But then I was also digging into the Bible to see what that had to say about everything. And I sort of started combining these two ideas, these two sources of information. And that's what kind of led me to create this blog. Cause I just wanted to share what I was learning with anyone who would listen.

And that's kind of how we got it off the ground. Now, we did change the name to SeedTime a few years ago, we kind of rebranded and that comes from a verse in Genesis. Genesis 8:22. And, it's where God's talking about how there will always be the law of seed time and harvest. And that's kind of where that comes from. This idea. That the fascinating thing for me is that, pretty much, if you look at everything that God does, it almost always starts with the seed.

you know, and so you can apply that to so many areas, but our financial, our finances and our. financial growth or any growth in any area of our life. It always starts with something really, really small. And that's where the power is, being able to take that small thing and to start and to just care for that, to water that seed and to keep caring for that and to let that grow into the mighty oak that it will become.

Mary Hunt: [00:06:46] That is fabulous. You know, as you were saying that I can't help, but think some of the things that I've been telling my grandchildren and my kids and myself in this past few months, Is that we have to grab onto the things that we know will never change. We're looking at things that can change and have changed in ways that we'd probably never dreamed, but you're absolutely right.

Seed time. We should count on that. We can count on the sun coming up in the morning, going down at night. There are things that God has given us that will never, ever change. How wonderful to grab onto that. That, that is, that is really, really that's fabulous. So you've kind of already alluded to this. I was going to ask you what role has debt

and savings played in your life? So let's, let's look at that debt thing. I, you know, I've been there as well. How did debt affect you personally? And can you contrast that with where you are now? And I need emotionally, day to day, the difference between debt and debt free for you and Linda. 

Bob Lotich: [00:07:50] Yeah. you know, and like we had talked before, I know a little bit of your story and, what it was like for you and, yeah.

And coming back to the Bible, this was one of the first verses that I discovered where it's like, that makes so much sense. You know, it was a verse in Proverbs where it talks about how the borrower is slave to the lender. And when I read that, like, that's exactly how I feel. That's exactly how I feel like, you know, the bank owns my car and they own my house and they, you know, all these credit card companies are hanging this thing over my head and the student loans.

All this stuff. It's like, I felt like every dollar that I had was someone else's and I felt like I'm going to work to give money to these companies. And it was a very, yeah. Relative to where we are now, we are now 100% debt free by the grace of God and we're tickled pink and enjoying it. But, but comparing the two different things, it's very clear.

That, that was a very unsettling feeling. and I knew that then, but like, especially contrasting it to being a hundred percent debt free. It's just so much different. And you know, my encouragement to people all the time is it's good. Like, I'm sure you think that it's good when you pay for your dad, but it is just, it's so good.

It's so much better. It feels so much richer than I think most people imagine. And I think if everybody knew how great it would be, feel to be a hundred percent debt free. I think a lot more people would be chasing it.

Mary Hunt: [00:09:15 ]I couldn't agree with you more. And I'm looking right now and reading my in inbox, my email from people who, who came into this time of life is shut down of our country, losing their jobs and all with tons of debt and no savings.

And that's horrific. I mean, we're starting to see the fallout of that. I'm wondering if you and Linda did, was it just, is it, has this just been a little blip in the road? Because you are prepared, you have savings. You are not depending, on a paycheck every Friday or whatever like that. And I really like our listeners to understand how important it is to plan. 

Bob Lotich: [00:09:54] You know, that was part of being able to pay off our debt or what will got us excited about paying off our debt. Cause it would be able to build up a bigger emergency fund. for stuff like this, you know, and so we were able to do that and, you know, and we've gone through hiccups, like, I went through a pretty scary layoff. that kind of was my transition into being an entrepreneur. And that was the same type of thing where that, that emergency fund, really helped us considerably get through that phase of a lot of personal uncertainty.

And now we're in kind of global uncertainty and, you know, the government keeps throwing money at us, but. Like, that's not going to last forever. That's not going to solve our problems. And it's like, it's nice. Then it will help some people, but that's not a long term solution. Like we need to be, figuring these things out for ourselves and getting in a solid financial spot ourselves so we can better handle these things. And yeah, in our case, It has been, yeah, personally it still affects us.

It's like, you're not immune to it when you're debt free, but, but it's definitely on a much lower level and scale than it would be if we were still carrying all the debt we were before. Like, I don't want to think about how we would be thinking and how we'd be handling this. If we. Had that, that load that we had before.

Julie Emerson:  Let's take a quick break for just a minute. Okay. Hi, I'm Julie. Producer a Debt Proof Living with Mary Hunt. You know, many of us have the experience in our lives of living paycheck to paycheck. Many people. I know it well, have a difficult time following a budget. But not managing our money as a leading cause of stress in our lives. 

That's why Mvelopes created a simple, affordable envelope budgeting program that just works. Mvelopes helps you take control of your future by giving every dollar a purpose, every dollar. A purpose. People who use envelope, see monthly savings of 10% of their spending within six weeks of getting started and they report less anxiety. 

And currently Mvelopes is extending their free trial to 60 days for all of their subscriptions. So there's never been a better time to start on a new path. Just click the link in the show notes and sign up today. Risk-free. Okay. Now let's get back to our conversation.  

Mary Hunt:  [00:12:15] yeah. I have a question for you that I get quite often, especially from younger folks, I think that they're facing life. You know, how do I manage debt? Not how do I live without debt? It's become a way of 

life for 

them, but this is the question, you know, Jesus told us, why do you worry? Don't you know, that the father takes care of even the birds.

They don't worry. They don't wonder where the next meal is coming. Why are you worried? Don't worry about tomorrow. Yeah, but then we read in another part of the Bible, like in the Psalms that says, or the Proverbs, you know, that look at the ant, they don't, they don't play all summer. They are gathering for the winter

that's coming. How do you explain, how do we plan for the future? But yet trust God for the future. Where, where is that balance? And are we foolish to say, God will take care of tomorrow and spend it all today that He's given me. 

Bob Lotich:  [00:13:15] Yeah. That is a, a wonderful question. That. I wish I had the answer to, you know, this is something that we, Linda and I, even at this moment, like we still have discussions about this, where we are trying to figure out that perfect balance point of using wisdom.

You know, like you have many instances, you have Joseph in the Bible, being instructed during the years of plenty to save up for the years of famine that were coming like. It's it's, you know, using wisdom to plan ahead, like the, you know, the Proverb you mentioned it's clearly a Biblical principle, but at the same time, like we can't trust in any of that.

And I find for me personally, when I find myself trusting in my savings account too much. Trusting in my sort- my income source, whatever it is. if I am doing that too heavily, like God will correct me. Like, I will sense that like, Nope, I don't want you leaning on that. I want you leaning on me as your provider and to trust.

And it's like, it's good that you're doing that and using wisdom, but yeah, for us, that's been just a constant thing where, where we're trying to find that perfect spot. And honestly, I don't know that there is a perfect spot. I think that those two pieces have to work together. And I think that, you know, the unfortunate answer for a lot of us is that it's a personal

individualized thing that we're all in different places on our journey. And, if we are followers of Jesus, that that's something that we can trust that God is going to guide us on individually, you know, Holy spirit leading us in whatever direction. but yeah, it's a tough one. It's a really tough one.

I wish there was a pat black and white answer, but, I don't think it's that clear cut. 

Mary Hunt:  [00:14:55] Just interject and share this, that. As this whole shutdown thing happened so quickly in the U S in the early months of 2020, my husband and I, who w w we have emergency savings. I mean, you know, six months living expenses in the bank, I think is a pretty good benchmark.

And as I look at it, now, I understand it's so much more why we need to plan, because we've been able to help others. Okay. And that giving thing, when we lived in California, we went to Saddleback Church. And so Rick Warren was my pastor and I still consider him that way. And I'll never, ever forget something that he said in a sermon that has just, it impacted my life.

So seriously, he says, this. Money is a test and a trust. God puts money into your life to see if he can trust you with it. And if you spend it all on yourself and you squander it and you have nothing to show for tomorrow, He knows He can't, He can't trust you. So it's almost as if God put this, these funds and this resources into our lives, so that we'd be able to serve Him.

And that almost brings me to tears. As I see that new dimension of planning, it's not just for us, just not to pay our bills. And you know, for people who have debt, they still need to have savings. They still need to have emergency fund, but it's sad when that money has to go to the bank. So I, I just applaud you and absolutely how you explained that you've brought new meaning to those verses to me. And I, I really thank you for that. So you're saying that if I'm planning that doesn't show, I'm not trusting. 

Bob Lotich: [00:16:37] Yeah. I mean, this is the thing, like we, we literally were having a conversation about this the other day because our business has changed a lot over the last few years where, A few of the sources of revenue that we were kind of leaning, or I should say me, this is probably more me than Linda.

Linda is a little better about this, but I just tend to lean too much on one source of revenue. And it's like, if you have a job, like it's easy to view your job or your employer as your provider, but that's a dangerous place to be. because they're really not your provider, you know? And when you're in that position, then you lose your job.

And suddenly, you know, your whole world is turned upside down. But as a believer, like we should be able to go through that. And that being like the storm, when Jesus is asleep on the boat, you know, in this hurricane type, wind situation, And he's at rest because he knows his father is going to take care of him and that he's not going to drown or whatever the thing may be.

And the same thing can be applied to our lives. So regardless of what's going on in the world, around us, you know, in this case with the pandemic, all the economic uncertainty and job loss and everything else. Like, we can still trust God that He's going to do that. But when we're trusting too much in our business or in the government or in our job or whatever, the thing may be, we're just on shaky ground.

That is not a good place to be standing. 

Mary Hunt: [00:18:00] Okay. I have a question for you. First I want to, I want to remind my listeners that we have a podcast series, which is based on my book The 7 Money Rules for Life. And of course, one of my rules is that from what you receive, you must always give some away.

And there's a reason for that. I've got lots of reasons, but I want to hear your reasons, Bob, because when it comes to giving, I've learned from you, that you put a lot of people to shame. Tell us about your- and what you and Linda have decided to do with living, with giving. I'm sorry, with giving away money that God puts into your hands.

Bob Lotich: [00:18:37] I just want to say. I mean, you mentioned I was putting people to shave and just so we're clear, like, all we have done is obeyed what we sense the Lord leading us to do, and everybody's on their own giving journey. And yeah, my encouragement to everyone is to push yourself a little bit further and we can talk a little bit about what we've gone through and what the Lord led us to do.

But I didn't start out, I started out as a child, pretty selfish, and pretty self centered. And, one of my earliest memories was thinking was actually talking to my younger sister who is three years younger than me. I was probably 10 at the time. And I remember telling her, you know, when I get older, I'm going to be really rich and I'm going to have this big, old mansion.

I'm going to have a tennis court inside, a basketball court inside, two pools. I'm going to have all this stuff and just laid up, named off everything in this giant mansion I was going to have. I said, and you can't come in!  And she started crying. And, it's one of my earliest memories about kind of, you know, and it's just a sibling thing, but, I was thinking just about myself and just about all the wealth that I could accumulate, you know, and that carried over into my teen years, when I really began to serve the Lord and he began to work on my heart and I think it's just interesting that generosity would become like one of Linda and I's biggest passions.

and so over the next couple of years, my introduction to giving and tithing kind of came at a church that I was at, that was not real great. And so I was attending this church and watched a guest preacher come up and, go up to the alter and basically real small church, probably a hundred people.

Everybody knew each other. And goes up to the altar and says, I want everyone who's not tithing to raise your hand. I'm a fairly new Christian at this point. And I'm like, this does not feel right. Is this what's normal? You know? And I I've since learned that that's not normal. And so he goes on to two people in the congregation, raised their hands and he called them up to the altar and he just continued to kind of berate them in front of the entire congregation

for not tithing. And, you know, and as a very new believer, I I'm like, I, this just doesn't feel right. I just don't think this makes sense. And thankfully in my Bible, I went on to read in second Corinthians 9, where talking about, you should not give out of compulsion, you know, And it's like that certainly was compulsion.

But anyway, my point is, this is kind of how I was introduced to this idea of tithing. So it wasn't the best introduction. but I, you know, as I studied this principle more, I came to realize that it's not about giving to the preacher. It's not about giving to church even, it's about giving to God. And so that was kind of how we got started by giving 10% of our income.

And we did support our local church with it. And at that point, we just noticed, I don't know, everything seem to make a lot more sense financially. It was really weird. but yeah, it just seemed like everything began to click a lot better. and we had some kind of really cool miraculous things happen around that

financially. But everything was just working better. And then we noticed that God would just kind of call us to give a little bit more and do a little more here and just always stretching us a little bit towards this a little bit uncomfortable and a little bit like, ah, I don't know about that, but we'll do it because I feel like this is what you're asking us to do.

And then ultimately that kind of led to when I was 31 years old, I was kind of spending some time praying in a field. And I was praying about some financial struggles that we were having, you know, kind of praying for the solution to these problems, these financial problems and these financial goals that we wanted to reach.

And I felt the Lord just kind of, you know, impress in my heart. If you want to see me really move on your finances, I want you to give your age as a percentage of your income. And so I was 31 at the time and I. You know, it took me a minute. Like, what is that? Is that even possible? Like, it's we have enough to do that.

Like, you know, anyway, so I'm like trying to mentally run the numbers and like, I don't even know if we can make that work. And anyway, so I went back home and talked to Linda and she amazingly, she was on board. She was like, yeah, let's do it. You know? So it's like, all right, let's try this out. So we began doing that and, Yeah, like, this is what is so amazing about this.

Like we, well, it seemed like that should have taken us away from our financial goals we're trying to reach. But within that year we had paid off our house. Like, it makes no sense at all, but that's just what happened. And. You know, so it's just really amazing, that he's kind of led us on this journey and the kind of, some of the breakthrough and the financial peace that has come as a result of yielding to what He's asked us to do. 

Mary Hunt: [00:23:29] that is, you know, you cannot out-give God.

I mean, we hear that. Yeah. We have other people say that but it's hard to turn that loose in your life. That is difficult because. But I'll tell you what I can tell you the same kinds of stories. And it's absolutely true that people need to experience this for themselves. That is great. You know, I hate to tell you this, but what have you lived to be a hundred?

Bob Lotich: [00:23:55] Yeah, no, I'm excited. I think it'll be fun challenge. Yeah. I mean, that's one of my goals. I can't wait till we get to the point where we're giving away 90% of our income and I hope we get to do it before age 90. 

Mary Hunt: [00:24:06] All right. So, so Bob, I know that you have a practice in your life that I would love to put into my life, and I would not even know where to begin.

And that is that you take sabbatical time. Time off, time to get away. Now, I kind of relate to this, or I know a lot of our listeners can, because we've all been given a bit of a sabbatical over the last couple of months, especially folks who have been furloughed or laid off from their jobs unexpectedly, but yeah.

Can you tell us about that? How you do it, how often you do it and what that has helped, what has that done for your life? 

Bob Lotich: [00:24:43] Yeah, so, you know, being a business owner, like you are like, it's, it's scary taking one day and just stepping away from your business. It's your baby. And it always feels like you need to care for it and you need to be present.

And so. probably about seven or eight years ago, I decided I was going to take one week off and step away from the business. And I kind of felt like I was supposed to do this, but I was also terrified and I decided I wasn't gonna check email the entire time. Wasn't gonna check any comments. It wasn't just completely stepping away for entire week.

And I was terrified. I was just absolutely terrified that when I came back, it was going to be gone. It would have blown up. It would have been hacked. It would have any number of things. And, but I did it and I made it through that week and it felt really good and it just really provided a lot of clarity of mind that I needed at the time.

And, and so anyway, so I just really enjoyed that and I decided about six months later, a year later, I wanted to try to press it and stretch a little bit more. And I asked what if we do this for an entire month? And, and the same feelings of just like fear. And there's no way we can actually do this. we're there, it was just really present and I was really scared and again, same type of thing.

And, but we started to do it and again, like stepped away from email from entire month. that time I was a little bit of a chicken and I told my assistant, I had assistant at the time. And I told her that was going to call her once a week and just check in with her and make sure everything was okay.

But after that month, the benefits that I received from it were so wonderful that I, I've done it every year since. And I've just, I've just been so addicted to the benefit of it. And so we can talk a little bit about that. You know, one of those biggest benefits for me is just being able to see things from a 10,000 foot view. Because, I'm the type of person who is, I just put my head down and I just work and I run towards whatever the thing I'm doing.

And it, when, if you're a worker like that, who isn't real great at stepping back and looking at the big picture, like you can just do that and do that for years and years on end and find yourself somewhere where you don't want to be. And where you never intended to go. Or building a business that, you know, controls you and runs your life rather than a business that you run. Or whatever

the thing may be. Down a career path that you never intended to go down. But being able to step back just completely decompress and take an honest look at where you are, where you want to go and do that with a clear head has been so incredibly valuable for me. That, yeah, it's like I'm sold on it and we're addicted and we're just going to keep doing it.

Mary Hunt: [00:27:32] That is amazing. So what is, what is the longest sabbatical you've taken? 

Bob Lotich: [00:27:37] Yeah. Well, I can tell you about that one too. I was really gonna freak you out. So, 

Mary Hunt: [00:27:41 I already know, what's coming.

Bob Lotich: [00:27:43] Three years ago, we, And this one, wasn't my idea at all. but I felt like the Lord was leading me to take an entire year off.  And, and so in 2017, we stepped away from the business for an entire year, which, and every single time, like it's just absolutely terrifying. And every single time, like I watched God sustain us through it, cover us financially through it and, and cover all the things that I'm worried about and freaked out about.

And that year was no different. And, and in fact, like the timing of it was really special and precious. So we, that year we had kind of put our name in the hat to adopt. And the agency we, that we were working with at the time said, you know, they're really kind of cookie cutter and had really good systems in place.

And they said, basically we bring birth mothers in, in a three to four month range after they've gotten pregnant. And so basically you have, you know, five or six months heads-up notice you can get everything prepared. And so you can get to know the birth mother and all these things, you know, for this phase. It's like, this is our standard process. This is how we do it.

So we had done that about three months. It right at the beginning of the year and in three months had gone by and we hadn't heard anything. And it was about March of that year when kind of we made this decision to take this year sabbatical thing. And, within four weeks of deciding that we were going to do this, we got a call from the adoption agency, after not hearing anything from them for three months. They said we actually have a special situation.

We have a little girl who was actually born last night and the birth mother, you know, has picked you guys. And so, if you, you know, approve, then we can move forward with this. So we got off the phone and, prayed about it for about 10 minutes. And we drove down to Alabama and picked up our little baby girl.

And the timing of it was just so wonderful because I had so much stuff planned that year that I don't know that we could have handled it. Because you know, for anyone who doesn't know when you do this, like you have to, so we had to drive down to Alabama and plan on being there for 14 days. Cause it's an interstate adoption.

And that's the process. Is you just have to stay there and you have to live out of a hotel with a newborn, and whatever, until you can get back. And then in our case, like, because we were expecting the six month kind of lead in, like we had gotten rid of our car seat, we'd given it to, Linda's, sister.

And we had gotten rid of all of our baby clothes and given them to someone else. So like we were starting from scratch. We literally, I had to run from the hospital to Target, to buy baby clothes and to buy a car seat. Just so unprepared! Anyway, so the timing just worked out so well. It was wonderful that I get to spend most of that first year with her.

Just really, really precious time that, I will cherish forever. 

Mary Hunt: [00:30:25] And it's amazing. I just love that. Well, you've got to answer the question of, do you have a staff who kept the business going? 

Or?

Bob Lotich: [00:30:33] Yeah, small, very small. so we have an operations manager, who just kind of helps and assists with a lot of, just the day to day operations and she ran, kept things afloat while we did it. But, but because like our businesses is a blog, you know, and we have some courses that we offer and we have, you know, podcasts, YouTube channel, all that stuff. Basically, we just put content on pause for the entire year. And so we would send out an email once a month or so, just to offer some of our previous content that we had done, you know, so just kind of reusing some of that content, but basically the question I had to ask and figuring out how to actually make this work is.

How do I do this sabbatical, in an, you know, and honor that as much as possible, while still honoring the students that we had, you know, some were paying for access to me. So I honored those commitments, which was probably about 30 to 60 minutes a week, relatively small, but I wanted to honor that because they'd paid for access to me.

And then I wanted to just continue to, if there was a way to automate serving our audience. And so what we did was through email, we just republished articles that were evergreen. that I had written years earlier, there were still timely and relevant. And so our operations manager kind of assisted with that.

And she handles all of the emails that came in for the entire year handled comments and like a lot of those things. So that was practically how, kind of, how we worked through that. 

Mary Hunt: [00:32:03] It sounds to me like you have a book in there somewhere. 

Bob Lotich: [00:32:06] Yeah. so I'm working on a book now and that a good bit of that is going to be in there.

I think 

Mary Hunt: [00:32:11] that's great. 

Yeah,  thanks so much for being with us. One last thing. So anything that you would like our DPL and everyday cheapskate listeners to know? 

Bob Lotich: [00:32:20] Yeah. I mean, yeah, kind of summing up or to put in a bow on everything that we've just talked about here. The, the thing that's so interesting to me about kind of the convergence of God and money is that if we allow him, like, if we are bold to follow him in obedience and the things that he's asking us to do.

Like, it's an absolute, amazing adventure. Like, I, I cannot, you know, when I became a Christian, I thought life was going to be really boring and whatever. Like I just had this, these visions that I am, you know, agreeing to sign up to this incredibly boring life and by following Jesus and really just going after it and leaning into these things, like it has been the most wild and amazing adventure that he has led us on.

And that is. My encouragement. It's like, if you're living, what feels like a boring mundane life, like just lean into God, like, cause that's where things really will start change for you. 

Mary Hunt: [00:33:14] That's great. Thank you so much, Bob, for being with us and I want everyone listening. Go visit Bob's blog, seedtime.com.

You're going to love it and you are going to love  all of the stuff he and Linda do. They do live, facebook live. They do YouTube. You'll get to know them and their family. It's fantastic. Thanks so much, Bob. 

Bob Lotich: [00:33:37] Thank you, Mary. Really, really appreciate you having me.

Julie Emerson: [00:33:43]

Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt was created and hosted by, Mary Hunt. Produced by Julie Emerson, with Harold Hunt, Executive Producer.

Save time. Save money. Every Day.  Make it easy on yourself! Become part of the community and subscribe for free at www.everydaycheapskate.com. That's where you will find all the ways you can follow Mary, Everyday Cheapskate, and Debt-Proof Living.

Thanks for listening! 

Please take our very short survey! http://survey.libsyn.com/debtproofliving

Welcome to Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt. Today's episode is brought to you by Mvelopes. That's M, like Mary, V E L O P E S. Mvelopes uses the tried and true envelope budget system. All in one easy app. Give every dollar a purpose. Mvelopes.com.  And now here's Mary. 

Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt was created and hosted by, Mary Hunt. Produced by Julie Emerson, with Harold Hunt, Executive Producer.

Save time. Save money. Every Day.  Make it easy on yourself! Become part of the community and subscribe for free at www.everydaycheapskate.com. That's where you will find all the ways you can follow Mary, Everyday Cheapskate, and Debt-Proof Living.

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Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt was created and hosted by, Mary Hunt. Produced by Julie Emerson, with Harold Hunt, Executive Producer.

Save time. Save money. Every Day.  Make it easy on yourself! Become part of the community and subscribe for free at www.everydaycheapskate.com. That's where you will find all the ways you can follow Mary, Everyday Cheapskate, and Debt-Proof Living.

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Welcome to Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt. Today's episode is brought to you by Mvelopes. That's M, like Mary, V E L O P E S. Mvelopes uses the tried and true envelope budget system. All in one easy app. Give every dollar a purpose. Mvelopes.com.  And now here's Mary. 

Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt was created and hosted by, Mary Hunt. Produced by Julie Emerson, with Harold Hunt, Executive Producer.

Save time. Save money. Every Day.  Make it easy on yourself! Become part of the community and subscribe for free at www.everydaycheapskate.com. That's where you will find all the ways you can follow Mary, Everyday Cheapskate, and Debt-Proof Living.

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Welcome to Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt. Today's episode is brought to you by Mvelopes. That's M, like Mary, V E L O P E S. Mvelopes uses the tried and true envelope budget system. All in one easy app. Give every dollar a purpose. Mvelopes.com.  And now here's Mary. 

Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt was created and hosted by, Mary Hunt. Produced by Julie Emerson, with Harold Hunt, Executive Producer.

Save time. Save money. Every Day.  Make it easy on yourself! Become part of the community and subscribe for free at www.everydaycheapskate.com. That's where you will find all the ways you can follow Mary, Everyday Cheapskate, and Debt-Proof Living.

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0:00 Mary: So in today’s episode, we are going to take on our most formidable enemy. 

Julie: Welcome to Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt. Today's episode is brought to you by Mvelopes. That's M, like Mary, V E L O P E S. Envelopes uses the tried and true envelope budget system. All in one easy app. Give every dollar a purpose. Mvelopes.com.  And now here's Mary. 

0:30 Mary: Hi everyone! Here we are with another episode in our ongoing series on the Seven Money Rules for LIfe. Last episode you probably will remember and if you don’t maybe you want to go back and listen to that. We talked about the two enemies. Our two enemies when it comes to managing money and they are fear. Remember that, Julie?

Julie: I remember!

Mary: Fear. And today, we are going to talk about greed, the other enemy. 

1:01 The way that we deal with the fear part. The fear of running out of money. The fear of never having enough. Fear of losing your job. Whatever having to do with money and we feel fearful. The way to counteract that is to start saving money. Money in the bank changes everything! So that was our second rule of life. The third money rule is Give Some Away. Ok? So easy. Three words. 

1:30 Give some away. Oh, I know what you’re thinking, and I only know that because I know myself. I can promise you that when I was in the most trouble with money, making a lot of money had nothing to do with where we were. Because obviously we were not managing it correctly. But I could tell you that I would have said with complete certainty: We do not have enough money to give any away! If we had that much money, we wouldn’t be in financial trouble. 

2:03 If we could give, if we could be philanthropists, if we could do all of that kind of thing, wouldn’t that be fabulous but, no, we cannot. We’ll do that someday. Honestly, I really thought that. When I get rich, I’m going to give all kinds of money away. I’m going to be the kind of person who donates big chunks to every cause and charity under the sun. Guess what? That never happened. Absolutely not!

2:30 Because the thing that was so prevalent in my life, called greed, it took over everything. It colored everything. So, I want to talk about greed. How we need to get rid of that because I’m telling you what—it will sabotage your situation. While fear and greed sound like they are identical twins, they’re really not. Fear, Fear speaks to the future. 

2:59 We’re fearful of what’s coming in the future. We’ve got to fix it so something bad doesn’t happen. Where greed sabotages the present. Right today. Because it steals something so important in our loves called contentment. As long as we’re filled with greed, contentment can’t get in and invade our lives and give us the kind of joy and peace that we long for. Contentment says I am grateful for what I have. I want what I have. I have enough to satisfy. 

3:31 You know what greed says? Greed says more is not enough. I deserve even more. I want it all. I don’t care what it takes to get it. I deserve it. I’m going to get it now. And you know what happens? We start looking to credit and that is the fastest way to get into debt. You know, I’ve got to have a new house. Got to have a new car. My kids have to go to that school. Got to have these shoes. I’ve got to have this. Uh! Greed is such a horrible, horrible enemy and greed is never good. 

3:58 Julie, do you remember that Gordon Gekko? Remember that?

Julie: Yes, from Wall Street?

Mary: He was the main antagonist of that 1987 film called Wall Street and his whole thing was greed is good. Let me tell you something. Movies are movies. Greed is not good. I don’t think greed is ever, ever good. 

Julie: You know, the funny thing about that is greed, just the image of that in my mind is that greed looks like THAT. Greed looks like someone else. It couldn’t possibly be me. 

Mary: That’s right and it looks ugly in someone else, doesn’t it?

Julie: It does!

4:29 Mary: We don’t see that in ourselves. 

Julie: No!

Mary: Because we call it something else. We call it like, being good to my children.

Julie: Yes.

Mary:  Wanting to provide a wonderful life for my family. 

Julie: Treating yourself.

Mary: Isn’t is amazing the things that, the way we can skew our thinking. It takes going through an awful lot of pain to sometimes turn it around and I don’t want you to go through pain, my dear listeners here. So, I want to talk to you about greed. 

4:56 Greed drives us to do the dumbest things with our money. It really does. It makes us believe that I don’t have the money this month so I’m going to put this $1000 thing on credit and pay it off next month really fast. What makes us think that we’ll have it next month? Because we have all these crazy things in our head. I’m telling you something. Greed is terrible. Contentment is wonderful and that’s what you can have today. I don’t care what your situation is. You really, really can have contentment today. Contentment says, you know, I may not have it all, but I have enough. I may not have the best.

5:30 I may not have what I want, but you know what? Right now, all is well. Don’t we want to have that feeling? Let me tell you how we can get that. It’s rule number three: Give Some Away.  Now, we talked last episode about saving. The goal is that you will save, put away, not spend, get out of your wallet. Get it out of your checking account, 10% of your take home pay and everything that comes Into your life. 

6:01 All the money that comes into your life that you are able to manage, 10% you need to save. Now brace, because I’m going to add to that rule number three. We’re going to give some away. I want this to become the goal of your life: is that you will get to the point where everything that comes into your life you save 10% and give away 10%. And for some of you that are saying, that’s right, and I do that, and God has blessed my life unbelievably because I am willing to step out in faith. 

6:35 Not knowing where my income is going to come from a year from now, which we all want to know, don’t we? We want to know how much it's going to be, but we can't know that. I'll tell you something. That is such a small price to pay for something that will happen in your life that will change things forever.

Julie: Let's take a quick break for just a minute. Hi, I'm Julie producer of Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt. You know, many of us have the experience in our lives of living paycheck to paycheck and many people. I know it well, have a difficult time following a budget. But not managing our money as a leading cause of stress in our lives.That's why Mvelopes created a simple, affordable envelope budgeting program that just works. Mvelopes helps you take control of your future by giving every dollar a purpose, every dollar, a purpose, people who use Mvelopes see monthly savings of 10% of their spending within six weeks of getting started and they report less anxiety.

Now, currently Mvelopes is extending their free trial to 60 days for all of their subscriptions. So there's never been a better time to start on a new path. Just click the link in the show notes and sign up today. Risk-free .Okay. Now let's get back to our conversation. 

Mary: It's called contentment. It’s called joy. You will absolutely develop a personal compassion. You'll be putting other people’s needs ahead of your own.

7:05 Because I don't care how bad off you are—where you are right now. The worries you have. The fear of financial money problems you have. The fears you have. There's always someone in worse shape than you are. Now, you're probably thinking, OK, let's say I could do it. Where am I going to give? What do I give? 

7:23 Do you know that was that was my oldest son's biggest problem? His question when years and years ago, we put him on a financial plan where to manage money every month. His rule was that he had to save 10% and give 10% away. His first question was where am I going to give it?  We said, we're not gonna tell you. We'll tell you what we do. Mommy and daddy, what we do. How we do this. But we want you to see beyond yourself. Who’s in need? What if you have a friend at school whose dad just got laid off and they’re really, really in bad shape. Maybe your heart will say I need to help. I need to give.  There's all kinds of needs out there.

8:04 Now my husband and I, we give to our church because we really feel that is what God would have us to do. We give to other ministries or where our heart is touched. So I would say, what moves you? Is there a pregnancy center in your town that’s really, really struggling? Are there missionaries? You know, I'm not going to say where to go. But I tell you something. Once you have money to give away, you're gonna look at the world in a whole different way. When you give it, you want to make sure that you're doing that responsibly.

8:38 I'm so excited to just convey to you what giving is going to do in your life. It's going to take your eyes off your self, your pitiful situation. You're going to have a heart of generosity. You're gonna have a heart of compassion. You're gonna want to keep doing it over and over again for how wonderful it makes you feel to give.  

8:59 It is remarkable how it will it'll pull the drain plug on your greed. It will just drain away. It really will. Now let’s talk again about the amount. I don’t want you ever to think that if you aren’t giving 10% you don’t give anything. That you have to wait til you can give a full 10%. No, No, No, No. I want you to start today. You know, $1? Remember we talked about that with starting savings. Start with what you can.

9:30 Give it out of a heart of gratitude. Out of a heart of I don't know where the need is. I want my heart stirred. I want to know that I am doing something to help someone else who is in worse shape than I am. No one will have to tell you what to do. You'll know. You'll know!  If it's only one dollar and you see I don't know where I can give just one dollar. Put it in an envelope. Next payday put another dollar. You will have that so that when the need comes across your mind, when it comes across your life you will have the ability to be able to give. 

10:10 So there it is, rule number 3. Give some away. Start doing it. Your life will never be the same.

Julie: Mary, you spoke to this at the end there and I was thinking as you were getting, as you're wrapping it up. Which is more important? The habit of giving or the amount of giving? You spoke to that a little bit with a dollar in the envelope.

Mary:  Yeah. I think habit of giving is so much more important. The amount becomes nebulous. Because once you get into the habit of giving and once you start realizing that it's in giving that we receive, and I don't mean necessarily material things, but we receive joy. We receive a change of heart when we're not looking at ourselves. So I would say the habit of doing it is 1000 times more important than the amount. 

11:05 I’ll tell you something. Once you catch the joy of giving and how that enhances your life, you won't be able to stop. You’ll wish you could give more. You’ll have a heart, instead of saying, I wish I didn't have to give this dollar away (Julie: yeah) it'll be I wish it was 1000. I wish I could give so much more. You will start looking for ways that you can give. So absolutely, the habit of giving will change your life just as the habit of saving becomes almost addictive.

11:35 These two steps of managing your money—which if you've been counting—we're giving away 10%, we're saving 10%. Guess what? That's called the 10-10-80 rule. You give away 10. You save 10. You live on 80% of your income. Now that doesn't mean that you spend 80% (Julie: Right) but that's the part that you have discretion over. The other two are solid rules in your life that are unbreakable. The minute you can get to that and you start saying 10-10-80, I wish I could show you all the letters I received over the years who said that brought everything into focus for me.

12:15 Because I had a formula. I love a formula. Have you ever tried to make a beautiful desert without a recipe? It doesn't work. You know you just start dumping stuff in it and then you get discouraged and you waste. When you have a specific formula, it's like a road map. It's like the directions, you know. It makes it easy. I just tipped my hand. 10-10-80. It’s a formula that’ll really change your life. 

I'll see you next time!

Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt was created and hosted by, Mary Hunt. Produced by Julie Emerson, with Harold Hunt, Executive Producer.

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0:00 Mary: And for people who say I need my whole paycheck to live, you’re living way beyond your means. Because savings is part of your bills. It needs to be number one.

Julie: Welcome to Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt. It's all about life, money and how to live well and thrive below your means. Today on Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt, we continue our ongoing series: How to Take Control of Your Money. Our series is based on one of Mary’s best-selling books 7 Money Rules for Life, How to Take Control of Your Financial Future. And that book is available online or wherever fine books are sold.

Today's episode is brought to you by Mvelopes. That's M, like Mary, V E L O P E S. Mvelopes uses the tried and true envelope budget system. All in one easy app. Give every dollar a purpose. Mvelopes.com.  And now here's Mary. 

0:41 Mary: Thank you, Julie. Hello everybody! I'm so glad that you're back with me for this episode in our ongoing series based on the 7 Money Rules for Life. Now, if you didn't catch the last episode where we covered the first rule, I'd love it if you go back and listen to that. But we’re going to do a little review for all of us anyway. That first money rules for life is ready? Here we go— spend less than you earn.

1:11 It sounds so simple. Just spend less than you earn. But let me be cautious to assure you that it's not that easy. We live in a society, in a culture, that really wants us not only to spend all that we earn plus a whole lot more. Creating a lot of debt. Creating a lot of income for a lot of industries. We can get into that some other day. The rule is simple. Spend less than you earn. But Julie, let me remind you and all of our listeners. That's not the same as don't spend more than you earn.

1:50 They sound about the same, but it's not the same. If we were to say well I'm not going to spend more than I earn and that means you're going to spend every last nickel that you get as you get it. That is the problem. That is why so many Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. You know, I have to talk about myself as well because if you caught the very first episode of the series you know my story. You know the trouble I got into. It- it takes my breath away to remember and to recall that not only did I make sure we spent all that my husband earned. At the time I was not working. But I spent way beyond that because I thought the limit on my credit cards was my money to spend as well. That's just really, really crazy. So let's get the rule number one back into our minds. Spend less than you earn that indicates there is a gap. There's a gap between what you earn and what you spend. That is the beautiful gap. That is the place where financial freedom is going to be found for you. That is where you go to find solvency. That's where you are going to find joy and peace. That is the key to everything we're gonna talk about in this whole series.

2:58 Julie: I love that gap, Mary. I love that idea of having that gap and that margin, mainly because it reduces the stress in your life. (Mary: absolutely) it is so different, because you hear people say don't spend more than you earn. Live within your means or any of those things but that— like you say— that means, OK, if I get $1000 I have $1000 to spend. That creates stress in your future if you don't allow yourself that margin.

Mary:  Absolutely true. absolutely true, Julie. I have to say that all the seven, because I know what they are. I know and I will tell you the number one is the absolute most important of all for several reasons. The first reason is spending less then you earn— if you violate that rule you're stuck. You're absolutely stuck because you cannot allow the other rules to live out in your life. Because they're all based on the first rule. Spend less than you earn. Another reason is that without rule number one you're making an arrogant presumption on the future.

4:01 What you're saying is that I can spend all that I earn. I can spend all that we have. Get it down to absolutely zero in the checking account. I'm not getting into debt because I'm not going over. But, guess what? You're making an arrogant presumption that tomorrow things will be as great as they are today. You’re saying that the refrigerator is always going to run. The car will never need new tires. I will never need a brake job. The kids are never gonna have to go to the emergency room. Things are not never going to happen in my life over which I have no control— which is absolutely ridiculous.

4:35 I can see you smiling because you see how, well, ridiculous it is to think that way. Another reason that rule number one is so important is that it’s the only way that you are ever going to find freedom from debt. Debt is a horrible thief, a monster. It is horrible thing in our lives. It is steals from our future. It steals from our children. It steals our happiness. It, it takes our joy. It leaves in its wake depression, fear, greed. All of these ugly attributes. How do we get that way? We believe a lie— that we can spend money we don’t have today and pay things off later.

5:17 The last reason why rule number one is most important of all— is because living beyond your means leads to a life of misery. Total misery. Debt, depression and anxiety. OK. So we got that established. Rule number one. Spend less than you earn.

Julie: You know, Mary, did you get a chance to try out your spend-free day? 

Mary: We talked about that last week, didn’t we?

5:41 Julie: or no-spend day? I forget what we called it 

Mary: We talked about that the last episode didn't we? We called a spend-free. No spend. The whole day without spending any money and that means in any way. Can't pay the rent. Can’t shop online. Can't commit to anything. (Julie: Nope) No bills. It’s not easy. (it’s not) Do you know what? I have done that so many times. I'll tell you the first time I ever tried, I thought there was no way I could keep living. I hate to say that. We become so used just running out and getting any little thing we want.

6:16 Running through, driving through a drive-thru. Ordering something online. I had several spend-free days this week. One reason is that I don't have my own separate car. My husband and I share a car. Crazy. That's made a big difference for me. Another difference is that now where I used to go to work every day where I would commute to work. During the first years of cheesecake monthly and all of that we have done here online; we had a separate office 12 1/2 miles away which gave me a lot of opportunities to spend on the way to work. Isn’t that funny?

6:50 How we, you know, I need some new petunias. There's Home Depot! 

Julie: Right! There’s a lot of places to get a snack or a drink or some kind of fun thing for yourself in 12 miles.

Mary: Now, our our office is in our home since we relocated to Colorado. Oh, my goodness, it’s just wonderful. I have a 13-step commute to work because the offices are in the lower level. So it's 13 steps down. So I know that I got a real short commute to work. Honestly, it has taken so many things out of my mind (areas in which I can spend) but I'll tell you that the temptations for me and the things that I think about: online shopping!

7:27 But, on a spend free day— no online shopping. So that has changed for me. I had to really think, but I had two, maybe even three full spend-free days during the time between now and when we did the last episode which is only a few days ago. So I'm happy. (Julie: I know) I'm happy. I know that I have cash in my wallet. There's something about cash. Green. Dollar bills.$20 bills. I have gotten to the point…

8:00 I'm telling you folks. This is such a remarkable change for me! Money used to burn a hole in my pocket. I could think of nothing else. If I had cash, that's all I could think about. How can I spend it? I’ve done a complete 180. Where that cash in my wallet— it spells freedom. It spells options for me and I don't like to be without cash. Well, if I'm spending it, then I’m without it. I don't know. I play games for myself. I'm kind of embarrassed to tell you that but I do. I hide money from myself. I put it in the back of my wallet where I can't see it, and then I go… guess what, I know is it I know it's back there. I learned it from my husband. Im going to tell all the secrets.

8:41 My husband, as long as I've known him which has been many decades. He has kept a $100 bill hidden in the back of his wallet. He knows he has it. I know he has it. We forget he has it.  I would challenge my listeners. You think you can't save 100 bucks? Oh, yes you can if you are diligent and you really have a reason to do it. When you get it saved go to the bank and get a $100 bill. Tuck it into the most secret place. Don't tell anybody, unless you want to.

9:15 It will change everything, because no one that I know wants to break $100 bill to get a Coke and fries at McDonald’s. You just think of something else to do. It's a great thing. All right, so we have a really, really gotten off the path here we're gonna move on now to rule number two.

9:30 We’re going to move on now to rule number two. It’s so easy. It’s only four words, because remember all these rules do fit on the back of a business card. Rule number two: Save for the future. Save for the future. Four words: Save for the future. Repeat after me. Julie, repeat after me. Save for the future.

Julie: Save for the future.

Mary: Got it! Here’s what it means. Something from everything you receive— and I'm talking everything— you need to first before you do anything else. This is the rule. You save some for the future.

10:15 Wow! Let me tell you why this is absolutely critical. So important. Not more important than rule number one, but absolutely the next most important thing of all. I know. Julie, have you felt like there's some kind of an invisible force out there conspiring against you? To make sure you never get ahead? To make sure you always have more things you have to buy? Money you have to pay? That somehow, no matter how well you plan, or what a good person you are things always happen?

10:47 Like car trouble? A leak in the roof? The refrigerator stopped working? Always something that’s never gonna let you get ahead?

Julie: I do feel that way. We had a few years like that just a couple, just recently we had car after car after car break. Or was in a wreck. I mean, yeah!

Mary: it's terrible and let me tell you something you're not dreaming. It’s absolutely true. I think that we all have two enemies and these two enemies have a single purpose. They work together. They’re  like comrades. Their names or fear and greed. They’re liars and thieves. They go to extremes—amazing lengths to undermine and sabotage our efforts to take control of our money.

Julie: Let's take a quick break for just a minute. Hi, I'm Julie producer of Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt. You know, many of us have the experience in our lives of living paycheck to paycheck and many people. I know it well, have a difficult time following a budget. But not managing our money as a leading cause of stress in our lives.That's why Mvelopes created a simple, affordable envelope budgeting program that just works. Mvelopes helps you take control of your future by giving every dollar a purpose, every dollar, a purpose, people who use Mvelopes see monthly savings of 10% of their spending within six weeks of getting started and they report less anxiety.

Now, currently Mvelopes is extending their free trial to 60 days for all of their subscriptions. So there's never been a better time to start on a new path. Just click the link in the show notes and sign up today. Risk-free .Okay. Now let's get back to our conversation. 

11:35 Mary: The first is fear and that’s what we’re going to deal with today. Fear, and it goes like this. I'm afraid I’m going to run out of money. I’m afraid I won’t have enough money left until my paycheck. I”m afraid my paycheck won’t be big enough. I’m afraid that something will happen to my kids. I”m afraid that if I don’t have this credit card with me that I won’t have enough money to whatever it is. But it’s always I’m afraid. I’m scared and let me tell you something. When you’re spending every nickel you have? You have reason to be fearful, because we do not control our lives. We don’t!

12:08 So fear, and this sounds counterintuitive, but I really believe that it’s fear that prompts us to live way beyond our means. What happens is we’re fearful, so we have to get another credit card. Oh, I need that credit card just to have that cushion of that credit limit just in case something happens. I need this because I’m afraid of that. Guess what? We have to slay that enemy.  We have to put it to rest for certain and make sure it never comes around us again. 

12:42 The way to do that is Rule #2. Save for the future. You know that $100 bill I just talked about in the back of my husband’s wallet? Please don’t tell him you know about it. Please! He’d be so upset with me. What that does is, that alleviates fear. Not in the way it might sound, but what I mean by that is—I’m prepared. I have a contingency. I have set some space between me and the edge. If I were to run out of gas, and I don’t carry credit cards with me, what would I do? Well, it tells me I have money.

13:25 I have cash with me. I could take care of that situation. I might be able to help out somebody else. I might be able to help out my kids. Someone who is really, really….you know, I’ve seen my husband pull that $100 bill out of his wallet and give it away. There’s something wonderful about that. I’m telling you the way past fear is by preparing for the future. 

13:50 How do we implement this in our lives? How do we actually take this rule, save for the future, and put it to work? Well, I’m going to talk about a couple of things here. First of all, your next paycheck. The portion that you bring home. I’m not talking about the part of your paycheck that is withheld for taxes or that goes into your 401K. There’s an argument to say that would be savings, but that’s not money you can get your hands on. Ok? So it’s not really going to alleviate short term fear. It might take care of your retirement fears. Maybe. I don’t know. What I want to talk about is the money that you actually get into your hand. That you have control over. That you get to manage.

14:32 You are a money manager. You do know that right? Ok. You’ve got to be a good money manager. So here is the rule. We’ll talk about implementing it in a moment. The rule is that 10% of everything that comes into your life. Im talking about a rebate. I’m talking about a refund. I’m talking about birthday money.  I’m talking about any kind of money. This has to become a rule in your head.It’s the first thing you do that you take 10% of it. Put it away for the future. 

15:06 Ok, how do we define the future? Well, that could be tomorrow or it could be 10 years from now. It’s the future. It’s money you are not spending now. You are putting some distance between you and that money. It’s in that distance that you have opportunity.  You can change your mind.  You have freedom.  You can either spend it or not spend it. You have chosen not to spend it which opens up all kinds of options. 

15:35 Now we could talk. No. Let’s say that, I could talk for hours and hours about rule number two. I’m not going to do that right now. I just want to tell you that you’ve got to get this into your head. How do you do this? I know that there is someone listening to me right now that says, honestly, if I were to take 10% and not spend it from my next paycheck, we’re going to be in big trouble. Because we won’t be able to pay the rent. We won’t be able to pay the car payment. I’m already behind, so I’ve got to get caught up. I’ve got blah, blah, blah.

16:01 I understand that, but this is what I want you to do. If you cannot do 10%, (I love 10% because its so easy to figure out. If you get $942, you know that you are going to put away $94. Ten percent is pretty easy to figure out in our heads.) Let’s say you are in a really, really bad position right now, but you are learning and you are yearning to do better. I want you to take some amount. If cannot do 10%, I want you to do 5%. Can’t do five? Then let’s do 2%.

16:40 Ok, I hear you. You can’t even part with 2%? What about $1? How about just $1? I want you to take that in cash. Don’t write and IOU. Don’t say I’ll put it on my debit card or some other silly kind of plastic. Another topic for another day.  I want you to take that one dollar and I want you to make this ceremonial. I want you to get an envelope and I want you to write on the outside of it: Saving For The Future. Put that dollar, that one green dollar bill with George Washington on the face, put it in there. I want you to make a commitment. This is the start. This is my first baby step. I commit that from now on, I am going to save some part of everything I receive. 

17:43 Put it away in a safe place.  No one is going to steal it so you don’t have to put it in a bank.  Put it away in a safe place. Meditate on it. Think about it. Ask God to give you the strength, the faith that you can actually put away some of what you receive for the future. I’m telling you. It’s going to change your life. It absolutely will. Now, if you can do $2, if you can do 2%, if you can see your way clear to do 10%, you’re going to make so much greater progress so much quicker. Ok?

18:20 This is up to you! You are the money manager. I just want to challenge you during this time before our next episode that you will do this at least once. I hope you have some kind of income between now and then. If you don’t, I want you to plan for it. Start thinking about exactly how you will do this. A lot of us get paid now, not through a check or actual, actual money. Many times it is automatically deposited into your bank account. A lot of people are paid that way. I want you to take the time. I want you to go to the bank. You can probably still go inside. You might be able to see a teller. Somehow you can get cash out. I want you to do that. 

19:00 Save for the future. Honestly folks, it’s going to change your life and it will save your future. Alright, bring on the questions Julie. 

Julie: Ok. Mary, what if someone says I’m behind on my bills. I have credit card debt. Shouldn’t I be paying that off first? Or getting rid of these bills? Should I put off saving until later? What do you have to say to that?

Mary: I have just one word.

Julie: What?

Mary: NO! No, do not put off anything. There is absolutely no reason that you could give me where I would say, yes, do not save and do that first. No! Let me tell you why! 

Julie: Why?

Mary: If you don’t start saving now, you will never, ever start saving because there will always be something. You mentioned credit card debt. Why do you have credit card debt? Because at one point you thought you didn’t have enough money (Julie: Right) and so, you didn’t have savings. You didn’t have enough money to buy a new refrigerator. Why do I keep bringing up refrigerators? Because it’s happened to us several times. 

20:04 That’s kind of an emergency, ok? You will never, ever,  ever get out of that rut. That horrible deep pit of despair. Because you will always be looking to credit cards, personal loans, payday loans. Who knows how else? You know, twelve easy payments to the plumber—which are never easy. You will never get out. You must. You have to take that leap of faith. 

20:35 That means you don’t buy groceries this week. Most people have enough food in the house that you’re not going to starve. Even if that means you’re going to have to cancel that trip with the kids. Even if that means…I don’t know what you could bring up to me that would cause me to say, ok, you don’t have to start saving yet. No. There’s no reason. 

20:53 Julie: It’s true what you say about, there will always be something. It’s the habit that each person has to generate and there’s so many ways to just cultivate this habit. 

Mary: Anybody listening to us who does not have money in the bank, in a savings account, I can pretty much guarantee they’ve been putting it off. You know, its always like I’ll start with my next tax refund. Oh, I’ll start next week or as soon as we get this paid off. As soon as we get the new floors. As soon as I get…and it just goes on and on and on. 

Julie: You just have to change your thinking.  You have to completely change how you’re thinking about it. So, maybe this second question goes along with that because I’m thinking of college students. Say, you’re not making a lot of money. You may just have a campus job or whatever. Should college students pay off their college fees or should they start saving as well?

The thing about being younger is time is on your side which is so great. 

Mary: Maybe. I don’t think that incurring debt, even college debt, is anywhere near a good thing. At the very best, it’s a consolation for having not prepared. 

22:04 We’ve just got to wake up. I think the cost of college is absolutely outrageous and is probably another, another topic for another day. I cannot think of one excuse in the whole world because let me tell you this. It goes right back to children. I do have a book I wrote. I’m just going to tuck that in. It’s called Raising Financially Confident Kids and it’s the story of our two boys. 

22:26 When I went through the most horrible season of my life they were ages six and seven. My biggest fear in the whole world is that they would turn out just like me. They already had signs of that. More was never enough. Sixty gifts for Christmas, well, what else is there? They wanted everything under the sun and I had to come to the point where I realized that I trained them to be that way. Because they saw me. The very first thing my husband and I started to do was to allow them to have enough money, some money, not enough, to allow them to have money they could call their own over which they had control. They could make the decisions and they had to live with the outcome. Be it wonderful or be it terribly, terribly difficult. 

23:13 Mismanaging money needs to start early. So much easier lessons to learn when you’re age six and seven. Our boys learned from a very young age, and I would start them earlier if I had it to do over again. I’d start at age three and four. When you spend the money, you can’t have it back to spend again. You can’t change your mind. When you save money, you have options. Julie, maybe we’ll do another series on Raising Financially Confident Kids. 

23:41 I’m going to tell you a secret. It is so easy to teach kids to do this. You tell them the rules.  Our boys learned very young that they had to save 10% of everything they got. Well, guess what? They loved saving! They started saving 20%, 30%, 40%!

Julie: That’s great.

Mary: Both of them got to the point where they would save 90% of the money they got and spend 10%. The outcome is that while our boys could not be more opposite. Completely different in talent, in temperament, in personality. Everything about them is different, but they turned out the same when it comes to money, because they learned and they live by rules. Those rules dominate their lives today. Both of them, when they turned age sixteen—I’m going to start crying here, so I’m going to buck it up—both of them purchased their first cars outright with their cash they had saved. 

Julie: Wow.

Mary:  Because they got hooked on saving. They loved to get jobs. They loved to do things. They saved money. Birthday money. I thank God for that because they are financially confident men now. 

24:45 Julie: Well, I want to ask you one more question about fears. Has anyone ever shared with you any of their irrational thoughts? Someone that I know, who shared with me their irrational fears and irrational thoughts once and thought that just because of the financial stress —everything was going to fall apart. When we broke it down and talked it out together, this person realized, oh, it’s not, it was all irrational. 

25:11 Mary: I could probably put some detail to that from my own life but I’ve had people share with me over the years exactly that same thing. One thing I have learned is that fears of any nature are always worse when they are not expressed, when we just have them in our head. Ok? Once you even say the words they seem silly and we end up laughing—sometimes. I know that there are very, very real fears and I don’t want to undermine that in any way from anyone who is listening especially someone facing the fear of a medical diagnosis. We cannot equate those kind of fears here, but as we talk financial fears, oh yeah! They’re ridiculous sometimes.

25:53 I used to be so fearful that if I gave up my credit cards—that was a big one, oh my goodness! That if I gave up my credit cards, what if we couldn’t make the mortgage? We’d become homeless. I mean, it went from being late on the mortgage to being homeless like in one breath. Like they were the same thing. That we’d live on the street and what would the boys do and blah, blah, blah. You know, they’re irrational fears. They are fears that don’t find their footing in reality.

26:20 So my suggestion is to number one, write those fears down. You can do that privately. No one has to know. Put them into a journal. You can put it in pencil and erase it later. Fears that if my husband finds out, he’s going to leave me. That was my big one. If he found out what I was spending. If he found out that I was lying to him. Oh, terrible. So, fear, fear is an awful thing in our lives. There are many ways we can combat it. I think number one, prayer is the most number one thing. Give it to God. Turn it over to Him. 

27:00 Tell Him about your fears. Seek in His Word where He tells us “Fear not”. I have heard that those two words, fear not, appear in the Bible, in the Scriptures so often that we would be knocked out if we had them all at one moment. Fear not! We are not to fear. We’re not to fear. We are to be responsible. We are to trust. We are not to do awful things like spend more money than we have which I think is an awful thing. So anyway, I want to leave you with that today. The way to combat our fears, to slay that enemy, is to save for the future. It’s simple as that. Thank you everyone. Thanks for joining me today. I can’t wait ’til the next episode and I’ll see you then! 

Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt was created and hosted by, Mary Hunt. Produced by Julie Emerson, with Harold Hunt, Executive Producer.

Save time. Save money. Every Day.  Make it easy on yourself! Become part of the community and subscribe for free at www.everydaycheapskate.com. That's where you will find all the ways you can follow Mary, Everyday Cheapskate, and Debt-Proof Living.

Thanks for listening! 

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This episode was recorded in February 2020 prior to the widespread economic effects resulting from COVID-19 stay-at-home regulations.

0:01 It’s the same thing with money... I'm promising you.

Welcome to Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt. Today's episode is brought to you by Mvelopes. That's M, like Mary, V E L O P E S. Envelopes uses the tried and true envelope budget system. All in one easy app. Give every dollar a purpose. Mvelopes.com.  

Today on Debt- Proof Living with Mary Hunt, we continue along our journey based on one of Mary's best selling books 7 Money Rules for Life, How to Take Control of Your Financial Future. That book is available online or wherever fine books are sold. This episode is part two of our series, How to Take Control of Your Money.

0:38 Mary: Hi everyone! This is Mary Hunt. I'm so happy you're with me today for this episode. We are putting together the series basically for how financial intelligence is going to improve your life. I know that sounds so academic, doesn’t it? This is just basic basic rules for life having to do with your money. Think about this. If you have children or wherever a child yourself which I guess includes every single person you know. We grew up with rules. Probably the first one I ever remembered 

0:56 having to do with your money think about this if you have children or wherever a child yourself which I guess includes every single person you know we grew up with rules and probably the first one I ever remembered learning was crossing the street.

1:10 There's a rule - you just don't run out, you stand there. Are you with me? You look left. You look right. You see if a car is coming and then you can proceed cautiously.  We all know that. We don't have to relearn that every day of our lives. We just know it. It becomes instinctual. How about -oh, I don’t know- touching a hot stove? You'll do it once, maybe, but that'll be all.  Managing money is, it is very similar to that. There are underlying rules that, if broken, if not paid attention to, can really really mess up our lives and if you haven’t listened to part 1 in this series

1:50 you might want to do that because how do I reveal just exactly how not following rules or in my case not knowing the rules— I didn't realize that there was a fine art to managing money that we all need to know about.  So make sure you either go back and listen to that or a read about it. Whatever. But we're going to pick up today and I want to talk a little bit more about how to look at this. As we proceed and I only know this about you because I know myself.  It's going to be easy to see everything I talk about and we discuss here through the lens of your current financial situation.

2:32 I don't know what that is but mine is much, much different than yours. It's very unique.  You might have some student loans. You might have a couple of past due bills right now. Perhaps you're out of a job. Your situation is huge and it's easy to say there's just nothing that'll fix it now. It's too late. It's not too late. It’s not. Believe me. So what I want you to do. I want us all to mentally do this. I call it clean sweep and I only take that because that was the name of a television show on cable years ago. (I loved it.)

3:13 The premise was that the show would go into the home of someone who is having trouble with the organization, had a big mess, maybe even on the brink of being a hoarder. It was called clean sweep and they would come in and the show would do a clean sweep. Re-organize. At the end of the show everything's perfect. You know they walk in and their new home… oh it was fabulous and I loved the show. But the premise was this. They never attempted to organize clutter. It's impossible. So taking that principle here to our series here on how to manage and take care of money. 

3:52 In your mind I want you to just do a clean sweep. Just push everything out of the way. All the debts. Are the challenges. Whatever your situation might be. Even if it's fantastic. If you've got so much money in your savings account you don't think you'll ever ever ever have to worry or learn how to manage money. Get rid of that part too. Let's get just a nice clean canvas as we proceed. OK, ready? Here we go.

4:20 Rule Number One. It's not difficult. Here it is. Spend less than you earn. Five little words.  They become so, so unthinkable in our society and where we are in the world today. Do you know credit has become such a huge part of our lives? I shared with you in part one just how it affected my life. This first rule is so simple. I hope it doesn't prompt you to just blurt out- oh come on Mary everyone knows that.

4:51 Well, I promise you not everybody knows it or at least lives according to that. So the first money rule for life is so logical but so misunderstood that so many people miss it. There's a lot of competition for your mind and your wallet these days and there's a big world out there that would rather you not pay too much attention to this first rule. Spend less than you earn. Let’s talk about that.

5:30 There's many ways that people might refer to this. One of them is live within your means. If you live within your means, what that indicates is that you don't spend more than you earned. So let’s say you earned $1000. If you live within your means, you spend $1000. Ok? Of course you could spend less, but that's your max. You can spend as much as you have. If you spend less than you earn which is our rule. Spend less than you earn.

6:09 It means that you spend LESS than $1000. Now am I splitting hairs? NO.  I'm talking about a principal. The difference between what you spend and what you earn is a gap. OK, is it $1? Maybe it's $100. Maybe it's $500. I don't know, but there's a there's a gap there. Here's the principle. It’s in that gap that you are going to find financial freedom. It’s the money you don't spend that is going to allow you to live the life you love. That's the principle of rule number one.

6:50 So live below your means— is correct. Spend less than you earn. Live within your means means that you can spend it all. All right! The principle is we were looking at that gap. That part that you are not spending. Because… if you're following along in the book you're going to see some simple charts there that I hope will be very revealing. It’s in the a gap that you're going to be able to build an emergency fund. It's in the gap that you're going to learn how to start investing. It is in that gap that you are going to back away from debt. You're going to be able to pay off your debt. You’re going to be able to go forward to live debt free. 

7:30 You're going to eventually be able to live in a mortgage free home. See all those things are available if you stop spending all that you have or even worse— spending more than you have by going into debt. All right. So that is rule number one.  Let’s talk about how we do this. Oh my goodness. First thing we have to deal with is: what's the difference between needs and wants? That has become so blurred in our world during the last— oh I’d say— couple of decades.

8:03 but even more so in the last year or so because we're living in an amazing economy in the US. I don't know how long this is going to last, but people are working. Unemployment is almost unheard of thing. People are getting raises. The wages are going up because of supply and demand. When there are fewer people to work employers must pay more to get good employees. So it is just part of life. So, it's easy to think: Oh you know what? Let's move into a bigger home. Let's let's get some new furniture. Things are going so great. We’ll be able to pay it off in a short period of time.

8:42 A great economy doesn’t necessarily mean that we're going to stop spending more than we have. In fact, just the opposite is more likely. So we need to get rid of our ugly attitudes of entitlement. You know, I deal with that a lot when I when I wrote about my book for children: How to Raise Financially Confident Kids. We need kids to get rid of those attitudes of entitlement, but you know what? Adults have them too! Do you know— oh me, I just got an awful old iPhone 8 I need the… What what's the latest one, Julie? 11? 12? 14? 98?

Julie: I don't even know cause I have a 6

Mary: Oh dear, I don’t… you know….they do become part of our lives. That’s a subject for another time.

9:26 but…just think of all the things that our lives absolutely do not depend on, that we find the absolute needs not wants.

Julie: You're so right. Let's take a quick break for just a minute. Hi, I'm Julie producer of Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt. You know, many of us have the experience in our lives of living paycheck to paycheck and many people. I know it well, have a difficult time following a budget. But not managing our money as a leading cause of stress in our lives.That's why Mvelopes created a simple, affordable envelope budgeting program that just works. Mvelopes helps you take control of your future by giving every dollar a purpose, every dollar, a purpose, people who use Mvelopes see monthly savings of 10% of their spending within six weeks of getting started and they report less anxiety.

Now, currently Mvelopes is extending their free trial to 60 days for all of their subscriptions. So there's never been a better time to start on a new path. Just click the link in the show notes and sign up today. Risk-free .Okay. Now let's get back to our conversation. 

Mary: Dealing with needs and wants is not easy. I got to tell you what I did when I was in my really rough time when I was making this journey myself. I want to tell you about a quick little flow chart that I created years and years and years ago when I was in, that you know, dealing with this whole issue of coming out of that dark night of financial distress. There is a copy of it on page 57 of the book if you’re interested.

10:04 You could photocopy it. Write it up yourself. It's just a flow chart. It starts out, do I need it? If I say yes, then I go on to can I afford it? But if I say do I need it, and the answer's “Well, no, not really.” Then it is the end. I just saved myself from making a foolish purchase. These little tricks really, really help you do to do that. I also want to talk about widening the gap. At first, there's many of us who are making tremendous progress if we can end up on the next payday having not spent one dollar, a single dollar, from the previous paycheck.

10:43 That’s a start. That's a tiny, tiny gap. There are so many ways to widen that gap. 

So I just want to go over a few of them and these are from my history folks. These are the things that really, really spoke to me. Helped me. I wrote them all down. The first one is borrow and share. Rather than feeling like I had to buy something new. Always have to own that movie. It’s a change of mind for me and I have to tell you that, yes, my watch word was Blockbuster and I know probably don't remember that, but do you know there was a time…? Julie, she shaking her head. Do you remember Blockbuster? We would actually walking to the store look at all the movies. 

11:22 Julie: I do remember it and actually that was… my husband was working there when I first met him.

Mary:  Really?

Julie: Blockbuster is close to my heart.

Mary:  Yes, yes. For me, that started mind a mind-altering kind of thing because I realized I didn't have to own things in order to enjoy them.  Something else, this is easy now because a lot of people don't like to go to the mall. But years ago when I was going through this the mall was my place that was my antidepressant. That was my happy place. That was where I could get away and take my kids. I’m sorry. I’m sorry boys. I took you to the mall way too often. 

12:04 I had to stop that. I had to see that, that was like a slippery place for an alcoholic. It was, it was my bar! Gosh, that's so hard to say. But it was the absolute truth. Something else that I did was to limit my exposure to advertisements. I had to stop looking at women's magazines. Now, this was a time, yeah,  Internet wasn't that big of a deal. But I could go through a woman's magazine… in a fact, there’s something you maybe not know, Julie. Do you know that I was a contributing editor for Woman’s Day magazine for 10 years? 10 years! (Julie: Wow) 10 years I wrote for them.

12:40 So I kind of know I would see all that.  I would have to stop reading magazines. I couldn't trust myself. It was like I was a spoiled brat. Something else, and this is still true today, much harder than it used to be, I lived with cash. I'm talking about your day-to-day walking around money. What you have in your purse. I had to learn, I could not carry plastic with me. I could not. My drivers license I considered paper, but no, I'm talking about debit, credit, gift cards, all of that. I had to put them away because if I had them too handy, I was mindless with them.

13:19 In future episodes we're gonna talk about living with cash. There’s some great great tips and tricks. I'm gonna teach you. But back to our list here. Spend free days. Oh my goodness! Do you want a wake up call? Do you wanna see into yourself? Do you want to clear your vision? Come out of the fog? Determine, and this is gonna be hard. I know you can do it! We can do it together. Let's all do it. OK. Commitment. All right. We are going to start by naming a get a spend free day. I don't I will let you know, but we’ll think about it and let you know. Julie and I will try this out.

13:56 Here's how it works. You can plan ahead. That's fine. For one- 24 hour period you are not allowed to spend. And that's in any way! You can't pay the mortgage. You cannot pick up milk on the way home from work. Whatever. Can't go online. Can't go to Amazon. Spend-free day. (Julie: Nothing.) Nothing! Can't eat out. Nothing. You can't believe what’ll happen. Another way to do this is to save the difference. This just goes in a lot of different ways. What I'm talking about is if, let’s talk about the grocery store. You're shopping. It's not your spent free day. You have some coupons and you’ve got on that’s for $1. $1 coupon! I love it when there are 3 digits in a coupon.

14:40 So you pick up whatever that item is. You take it to the check out. You get your dollar off. You save the difference. You get it. You just don't let that dollar you saved melt into the atmosphere. Just take it put that one dollar into a secret savings place. It's great great principle.

15:02 Here’s something. Stay healthy. There’s nothing like medical bills to obliterate any gap you might have in your life. How about this one? Cook in. Stop eating out so much. Julie, have you been to McDonald's lately? I went there recently.

Julie: it's expensive for a family, for a person.

Mary: I almost had a heart attack.  I took my two grandsons. The three of us went for lunch. Two little boys, well sort of, and me. It was, it was like almost $30. I can't believe it. What? Of course, I let my kids pick what they like. I'm telling you I am about… I about… I couldn’t even finish a sentence just like right now… so expensive. Cook in. Oh my goodness. You can't believe the money you'll save.

15:50 Pare down. You know we're overrun with stuff. Just get rid of stuff. Pare down. Number 10. We’re getting to 12 here, so we’re almost there. Don't pay retail. Oh I love that! That’s my watch word when I go grocery shopping and I plan my meals and so on. If it's on sale, yes. It's not on sale, no.  We’ll wait till later. We’ll wait until it does go on sale and then we’ll get two to last till next time. Number 11—unfriend the Joneses. Does this happen to you? You’re having a wonderful day. You drive home and see your neighbors just drove up and parked a brand new SUV. There your car is and it’s a little scratched. Kind of old. Needs new tires.

16:35 That’s just an awful feeling. I hate that. That wanting to let my neighbors, allowing my neighbors to determine my decisions and so on. Just unfriend them. Not really. Not in true life. Don’t tell them! Just stop trying to keep up with them. And number 12— increase your income. Yeah, that'll help with that gap and less you keep spending up to the limit there.  Finding new ways. Get a side hustle. Do something. So many things and by the way if you're not getting my blog post every single day (www.everydaycheapskate.com) You are missing out on so much. We talk about this a lot.

17:16 OK so that's rule number one spend less than you earn. OK Julie, did I stir up any questions?

Julie: I do have a couple questions for you because I love how you were talking about the gap. In the gap is where you find the financial freedom. A lot of people think I find the financial freedom when I can spend whatever I want anytime I want. But the gap is that place and so I was thinking of that. 

I was thinking about needs versus wants. What could I be content with? Actually when you asked me what version of the phone iPhone I have. A 6 sounds so old, but it works fine. 

Mary: You're talking about the phone.

Julie: I'm talking so but I'm talking about is… I guess I wondered if you could speak to, a little bit about being content with what you have. Or a time that you, maybe a time from your own story where if you have a specific place and in your mind where you thought, “You know what? I can just go with what I've got.”

Mary: OK let's go back to your first one. Let's talk about financial freedom. What is financial freedom? What is that thing that we find in that beautiful place in life where we are spending less than we earn? I think it has…let's take away from money for a moment.

18:36 Let's talk about kids, raising children. As they become teenagers, they get more and more freedoms, right? But as you give your children freedoms, and they earn freedoms because they show a maturity and a discipline that they're able to handle that. Let’s say that it has to do with them being able to stay out later at night with your friends. Which I know is a big deal. (Julie: Right) You would, you would not in 1 million years expect that your child will take that to mean, “Oh good, for two hours of my life I can do anything I want. I can rob banks. I can I can egg cars. I can be a vandal. I can do anything I want because I have freedom to do anything I want.

19:15 It all comes in that want. (Julie: yes) Because if they have been raised properly. If you have instilled in them the values, beliefs. You expose them to God's Word. And they have embraced those, those things in their lives that you've taught them. Their wants are going to change. They’re not going to want to do that, because all of a sudden freedom now gives them not no boundaries, but allows them to live out the boundaries and rules and the values that they have learned. 

19:53 It’s the same thing with money. I'm promising you that when you have that gap. When you have, let's say $10,000 cash in the bank in your emergency fund, that doesn't mean that you live like an idiot. No! You drive more carefully. I promise you you will. (Julie: Right) because you don't want to have to take any of that $10,000 to pay for a deductible on a car wreck that was your fault. 

20:18  You are not going to let the paint job on your house get to the point where it's gonna cost you twice as much because it has deteriorated. You'll become so much better at maintenance. You will become so much more frugal when it comes to replacing things. Say you need a new sofa. You've got a nice gap. You have no debt. The last thing in the world is that you want to go into debt and so you see things through new eyes. You see things through eyes of financial freedom that you have. You have the freedom and I'll tell you there is bondage to be in debt.

20:56 because when you need that new sofa and your only choice is to use the available credit on one credit card and you've only got $600. Well, yeah, you shop well. But not for the reason we would've thought. So financial freedom doesn’t mean I have so much money I can have everything in the whole world. It's I have enough money to have those things that I need and some things that I want and you wants change. To me that is contentment. It’s knowing that I have options. I have choices. Does that help? 

Julie: That does help, and then I wondered also if you could speak to the fact that maybe listeners are thinking: You know what? This is all great, but in this day and age I do have three kids. They all need a phone. They all do this. They all are in sports, are all eating, and there is just- the family budget is just has so many more expenses than my parents day. It seems like there's no way that I could possibly spend less than I earn, because of all the pressure on a family budget now that wasn't on a family budget 30 years ago. I don't know if that's really true but I've heard my friends say that exact thing.

22:12 Mary: Well, I understand that. I also have to say that we need to rethink. We need to rethink. I have worked with families who have been in such dire situations that they didn't have the options that you speak of. Now, it might sound like a phone for everybody in the whole house is absolutely mandatory. I promise you that it's not. It's not. It might seem wise and for some people, they might choose to make it mandatory. But it's not. One family I'm thinking of right now with three teenagers. They had one phone between the three of them.  

22:51 And the parents would decide on a certain day who needed it the most. Then they taught and what do you do if you don't have a phone. Julie, there was a time none of us had phones.

Julie: We had a dime or quarter.

Mary: Children are fine. You grew up fine. OK. Yes, there were phone booths, but I think that friends have taken the place of phone booths. If you’re in a dire situation, you can always find someone who can make that call for you or allow you to use their phone to make it. That’s another subject for another day. What I’m saying is that we have to really rethink what is absolutely necessary. I know some families who think their kids having a meal card at elementary school is actually mandatory. No, it is not. Children can still take lunch to school.

Really, that’s what Everyday Cheapskate, my blog, my daily email is all about. Helping people to find all these ways to be able to reduce the expenses in order to widen the gap. I even wrote a post on how to widen the gap: bake bread. Yes, little things like that.

24:00  So I would say to your question that, yes, we have many expenses perhaps. Every teenager in the home doesn’t have to have their own car and we need to rethink a lot of things. Especially during the period of time are you getting out of debt, because I'm telling your credit card debt that interest-rate is chewing up peoples gap like you can't believe it. Getting rid of that it's going to really, really help.

Julie: Thanks Mary, I appreciate that.

Mary: Thank you for joining me on today's episode and I hope that you'll join me for the next one. See you then!

Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt was created and hosted by, Mary Hunt. Produced by Julie Emerson, with Harold Hunt, Executive Producer.

Save time. Save money. Every Day.  Make it easy on yourself! Become part of the community and subscribe for free at www.everydaycheapskate.com. That's where you will find all the ways you can follow Mary, Everyday Cheapskate, and Debt-Proof Living.

Thanks for listening! 

Everyday Cheapskate participates in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon affiliated sites.

There are affiliate links in this post. If you click through and make a purchase, we may receive a small commission at no additional cost to you. Thanks! Read more here.https://www.everydaycheapskate.com/?p=17323