Chicago-based food writer Dennis Lee, the creator of Food Is Stupid, sits down with David today. David and Dennis discuss artmaking and how to cultivate a financially sustainable career as an independent creator… without going on TikTok. The conversation gets deep about how the rewards, risks, and markers of success of working for a big media company differ when from being an independent creator. David takes a moment to express gratitude to you, the listener. Dennis and David somehow have a meaningful conversation about one's creative voice using bull penises as an example. The show ends with some cliché wisdom straight out of the book Tuesdays with Morrie.

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