Natalie Foley joins me to talk about her design thinking and learning journey, and how she became the VP and COO at Peer Insight. We'll also talk about the design process, some of the key methods that drive her work, and a pathway that organizations can use when developing their own internal design thinking capacity.

Natalie talks in this conversation about what to do when you work with people who are user-centered and able to handle the ambiguity involved in design thinking. Her job as COO, she explains, is to give a guardrail or enough structure to enable people to be successful, without giving so much direction and structure as to stifle the process. She also emphasizes the value of small teams.

You'll hear that Natalie's emotional journey to where she is now involved coming out of her undergrad experience feeling pretty smart and thinking that with every year of experience, she would get smarter. Stumbling on design thinking opened her eyes to a new perspective: she doesn't have to be right, because her customers or the marketplace will tell her if she isn't. Instead, the more important angle is to know how to run a good experiment.

The design process that Natalie uses typically involves four questions. The first is "what is?" The second question, or the ideation portion, is "what if?" This second part is anchored on the first question. After this brainstorming portion, the third question is "what wows?" This involves asking people what they think about some of the ideas that came out of the brainstorming process. The final question is "what works?"

Our conversation will also cover what Natalie's clients initially present as their desired outcomes, and how that changes during the course of their interaction with Natalie and Peer Insight. She'll also discuss how she reframes clients' problematic expectations into something that she can design with, as well as her workarounds for common points of struggle. Tune in to learn about all of this and much more!

Learn More About Today's Guest

Natalie Foley on LinkedIn Natalie Foley on Twitter Natalie Foley at Peer Insight Peer Insight Peer Insight on Twitter

In This Episode

[00:33] — Dawan introduces today's guest, Natalie Foley.[01:21] — Natalie takes a moment to talk about her work at Peer Insight in both of her roles there, and offers a brief description of what the company does.[03:48] — We hear more about the people piece of what Natalie does, and she explains that she's lucky in terms of the people she works alongside.[06:37] — How did Natalie arrive where she is at Peer Insight? She shares both the high-level practical answer as well as the emotional answer.[11:09] — Natalie digs into how she has seen the types of problems or challenges that she's seeing evolve over the last couple of years.[14:08] — When people come to work with Natalie, what are they initially presenting as the outcomes they're seeking, and how does that change during the interaction?[17:28] — Natalie talks about reframing clients' expectations when necessary.[21:02] — There's an easy way and a hard way to get a client to move through the pain of changing the way they're used to thinking, Natalie explains.[24:18] — Natalie digs deeper into the basics of the design process that she uses.[29:36] — We hear about the dynamics involved for Natalie in managing both her internal team and the client team.[32:59] — How does Natalie coach leaders in the kind of decision-making that she has been talking about?[37:08] — Natalie talks about the areas where she typically sees points of struggle, as well as her workarounds.[43:17] — We learn more about the dynamic involved with the peer insight side of things.[47:28] — On the technology front, what are some of the challenges and benefits in working with a remote or distributed client?[49:34] — Dawan asks Natalie what she would say to someone who is new to the field or wants to get into the design thinking space.[51:44] — What are some of Natalie's favorite books in terms of design thinking?[55:53] — Natalie shares her advice for someone who is a CEO or running a business who is interested in making an investment in design thinking for their company.[59:04] — Where can people learn more about Natalie, her work, and Peer Insight?

Links and Resources

Jeanne Liedtka Jeanne Liedtka on Design Thinking 101 Designing for Growth: A Design Thinking Tool Kit for Managers by Jeanne Liedtka and Tim Ogilvie Value Proposition Design: How to Create Products and Services Customers Want (Strategyzer) by Alexander Osterwalder, Yves Pigneur, Gregory Bernarda, and Alan Smith

I'm joined by Fred Leichter, the Founding Director of the Rick and Susan Sontag Center for Collaborative Creativity. We'll talk about what Fred learned and led design during his 25-year career at Fidelity Investments, how he's applying that experience at Claremont Colleges, and the promise and potential of human-centered design and design thinking in undergraduate education.

In 1996, Fred worked on designing Fidelity's first website, which was a huge breakthrough in the industry. He was in the right place at the right time as the industry transformed, so he was able to see a major paradigm shift happening, and observed that design was at the center of it. In 2006, Fred discovered design thinking. From there, he took on a broader role as the chief experience officer at Fidelity, and used design thinking as the essence of what he did.

In a large organization, Fred explains, the natural organization is to use the existing silos within the business. This looks something like passing something from market research to product development to detailed design to specifications to technology to legal and compliance, and finally to production. As a result, it took a fair amount of work to get into a position to prototype products and services, and use manual workarounds before building the technology.

Fred will discuss how he approached building out the Hive, which started with trying to engage students at a progression of levels. At the first level, he ensured there was an invitation to make something with a variety of crafting materials. The next level up involved workshops around design thinking, empathetic listening, or making friends with everyone. At the next level, they started offering pop-up classes usually taught by faculty. Finally, they offer semester-long courses for credit.

Tune in to hear Fred talk about resisting the urge to rush to a solution by putting alternatives in front of the customer, why we should look at a project expecting to be wrong instead of expecting to be right, the convening that he hosted, the ways in which colleges and universities can be more rigid than large organizations, and much more.

Learn More About Today's Guest

The Rick and Susan Sontag Center for Collaborative Creativity Fred Leichter at Harvey Mudd College Fred Leichter on LinkedIn The Hive at the Claremont Colleges on Facebook hive_5c on Instagram

In This Episode

[01:10] — Fred talks about how he arrived at "the Hive," or the Rick and Susan Sontag Center for Collaborative Creativity at the Claremont Colleges. He takes a moment to describe the schools and points out how highly ranked they are.[07:01] — What were some of the experience that helped Fred see and feel his love for teaching and design thinking?[09:43] — When Fred did the first design on Fidelity's website, he didn't call himself a designer, but he realized that he was interested in the topic and trained himself as a designer.[12:02] — Fred studied the unmet needs of people with aging parents and issues around intergenerational finance when he was at d.school.[15:02] — At the point Fred was describing, was he still using design workshops to help people internally understand and explore the concept?[16:35] — We hear about how Fred set up and built design teams.[18:23] — What tips would Fred offer to someone facing a similar challenge in a large organization?[21:50] — Fred talks about ways to resist the urge to rush to the solution. He also discusses whether he shifted the way people were rewarded organizationally for failing, finding things, and testing things.[24:29] — We learn about Fred's move to the Hive, and why he felt like he would be crazy not to take the opportunity.[28:28] — Fred discusses his approach in building out the Hive, and the various levels offered to the students.[33:17] — Dawan invites Fred to talk about the convening that Dawan attended and Fred hosted.[36:44] — We hear two of the largest impacts that Dawan got from the convening that he and Fred have been discussing.[40:53] — Fred talks about how he sees roles in directing or leading design thinking evolving or changing over time.[44:06] — What are some of the resources for someone, particularly a student, interested in getting into design thinking?[46:19] — One of the best resources that Fred gives to students is a blank notebook and a pen.[47:17] — Where can people find out more about Fred and the Hive?

Links and Resources

Stanford d.school Fidelity Labs Doreen Lorenzo Frog Design Creative Confidence: Unleashing the Creative Potential Within Us All by Tom Kelley and David Kelley Steal Like an Artist: 10 Things Nobody Told You About Being Creative by Austin Kleon The Opposable Mind: How Successful Leaders Win Through Integrative Thinking by Roger L. Martin Protobot IDEO.org

The remarkable Jean-Louis Racine, head of the World Bank's infoDev Climate Technology Program, joins me today to discuss how he came to apply design thinking in his work, doing design thinking in large organizations, leading design teams, and stakeholder-centered design. Before working at the World Bank, Jean-Louis earned a Ph.D. in robotics engineering and worked as an engineer. This allows him to bring a depth of experience to applying and thinking about design thinking.

As you'll hear in our conversation, one of the things that Jean-Louis appreciates most about design thinking is that it forces you to be "solution-agnostic," as he puts it, and encourages redefining the problem into something that doesn't include the solution. As an example, he shares a story of how this process brought him to the surprising solution of needing many entrepreneurs to fail faster.

Many large organizations aren't very risk-tolerant, but design thinking de-risks a project because it's about testing hypotheses. Its rigor and evidence-based principles make it easier to create something that will actually work. Jean-Louis points out that framing the value of design thinking in these terms can be more successful for large organizations than talking about creativity, for example.

Jean-Louis points out the need for trust in learning what the design thinking cycle is and how it works. It's something that requires someone to experience it, he explains, which makes things tricky when people aren't inclined to trust you through the process. The solution when people don't embrace the new technique from the beginning is to simply struggle through it.

We'll also talk about techniques to get people to give feedback without as many ego issues, the difference between critique and criticism, what it means to design for stakeholders, some fantastic books and resources that will be useful for listeners interested in the various subjects we cover in this discussion, and much more. I hope you'll enjoy this conversation as much as I did!

In This Episode

[01:34] — Jean-Louis starts off the conversation by telling listeners a bit about himself and his background. He also addresses how he came into design thinking and what the early journey was like for him.[04:36] — We hear the story of the first time that Jean-Louis applied design thinking in his work at the World Bank.[07:41] — When you don't really know what you're doing, you make mistakes, Jean-Louis points out. That's how you learn.[08:22] — What was one of Jean-Louis' mistakes that turned out to be a useful learning experiences?[12:01] — Jean-Louis talks about what has helped him with shaping design thinking to individual contexts.[13:07] — Jean-Louis digs into how things have changed over time in terms of the way organizations or colleagues have responded.[17:56] — We hear more about the ClimateLaunchpad program and how design thinking was applied there.[21:51] — Jean-Louis describes how the teams in the ClimateLaunchpad are brought into an understanding of design thinking to the point that they can apply it to their teams and on their projects.[25:22] — Last year, Jean-Louis was in Kenya running a small design workshop. He shares a story of an event that happened there with a team of people familiar with his design thinking methods.[28:51] — Dawan points out that he and Jean-Louis both face the issue of dealing with people in their work who aren't confident in the design thinking process.[34:11] — Criticism is difficult to unlearn, Jean-Louis points out, and critique is more difficult to give than criticism.[36:33] — How has Jean-Louis found that templates function in the work that he has done? He answers, then talks about where he sees things going in the next several years as he applies design thinking at the World Bank.[43:26] — How does designing for the network of stakeholders change the design process[45:58] — Jean-Louis talks about whether there are any other open questions that are interesting for him right now.[47:48] — We hear about some resources that Jean-Louis has found useful, and that listeners may find useful as well.[50:25] — Where can interested listeners learn more about Jean-Louis or his work?

Links and Resources

Jean-Louis Racine infoDev Climate Technology Program ClimateLaunchpad Jeanne Liedtka Gamestorming: A Playbook for Innovators, Rulebreakers, and Changemakers by Dave Gray, Sunni Brown, and James Macanufo Designing for Growth: A Design Thinking Tool Kit for Managers by Jeanne Liedtka and Tim Ogilvie Product Design and Development by Karl Ulrich and Steven Eppinger Next Billion

Ela Ben-Ur joins me in this episode to talk about the work that she's done to make design thinking accessible and easy with the Innovators' Compass. Ela spent 13 years at IDEO, and has taught courses from product design to life design at pioneering Olin College as an assistant adjunct professor since 2007.

As you'll discover, Ela has a breadth and depth of knowledge and experience with design thinking. She has seen its evolution over time, as well as how it functions in a variety of contexts. She's here to share what she has learned over the last 20 years while teaching design thinking, and while working to make the Innovators' Compass an accessible way for anyone to get started.

Ela had a lot of free time during her childhood due to family circumstances, which she'll explain in more depth in our conversation. This led to her seeking out places where people figure out how to get through challenges, which in turn explains her choices to study at MIT and work at IDEO. Through these experiences, she arrived at her current mission: making design thinking as accessible to any person in any moment as possible.

In our conversation, Ela will talk about the five questions in the Innovators' Compass:

• What's happening, and why?
• What matters most?
• What ways are there to make things better?
• What's a step to try?
• Who's involved?

Ela will also discuss other points, including what she would address if she were going to coach a design thinking coach, why it's often better to give people less rather than more when it comes to design thinking, where she thinks design thinking is going in the next couple of decades, where big breakthroughs can come from, and why it's important to go slow to go fast.

In This Episode:

[01:50] - Ela starts things off by explaining her origin story, or how she came into design thinking as a practitioner and educator. [07:18] - Since leaving IDEO six years ago, Ela has tried to tune into where design thinking feels as accessible as it should be, as well as where it isn't accessible. [07:55] - We hear more about Ela's desire to bring people into the space of accessibility she has mentioned, as well as the barriers and challenges. [09:53] - When Ela has found people who are really struggling with design thinking and the process, what has she done to help them? [13:31] - Ela talks in more depth about the questions in the Innovator's Compass, and how she arrived at that configuration. [17:44] - Dawan takes a moment to mentally parse the many representations of a design process, and points out that in many ways they mask the inquiry that is the heart of seeking a pathway from the world we have to the world we want. [21:01] - Especially if you're involved in a challenge, it can be so hard to explore questions and admit that you don't know what's happening or why. [27:04] - Dawan talks about some of the work that he has been doing with Elon University, which involves looking at ways to build out an approach to design thinking that syncs up with the university's learning environment. [29:32] - When working with people who are new to design thinking, or others who are experienced with human-centered design, how does leadership flow? [35:46] - Ela talks about some of the key elements that she would address if she were in the role of coaching someone who will be the facilitator of design teams and activity inside an organization. [40:18] - If you layer on too much too fast, it's not just diminishing returns, it's negative returns, Ela points out. [44:11] - Where does Ela see design thinking, or the Innovators' Compass, going in the next five, ten, or twenty years? [47:06] - Ela points out that so far the conversation has involved a lot of generalizations, and offers some concrete stories in contrast. [53:43] - Ela takes a moment to express gratitude for people who have Tweeted their stories to the #InnovatorsCompass hashtag. [54:14] - Where can people find out more about Ela and Innovators' Compass? [56:19] - One of the things that Dawan ends up correcting in people is seeing design thinking as a recipe for innovation. He and Ela then discuss this concept. [60:04] - We hear about the ways that Dawan tries to get around the recipe concept. [60:57] - Ela responds to Dawan's method for getting around the recipe problem, and shares some of her own patterns. [65:25] - Dawan invites listeners to get in touch with comments, suggestions for future guests, and requests for topics. You can contact him at [email protected].

Links and Resources:

Ela Ben-Ur at Olin College Ela Ben-Ur on LinkedIn @ElaBenUr on Twitter Innovators' Compass IDEO Olin College SXSW EDU David Kelley> Audrey O'Clair Garrett Mason #InnovatorsCompass Valeria Rodriguez

Welcome to the Design Thinking podcast! I'm Dawan Stanford, your host. In each episode, you'll learn to apply design thinking to your goals and challenges. Our guests, who come from a wide variety of industries, will share stories, lessons, ideas, experience, and insights from practicing, leading, and teaching design thinking.

In this first episode, our guest is the incredible Jeanne Liedtka. Jeanne has been involved in the corporate strategy field for over 30 years. She's a Harvard Business School graduate and a professor at the Darden Graduate School of Business at the University of Virginia. In addition, she's a prolific author whose works include The Catalyst: How You Can Lead Extraordinary Growth, which won the Business Week best innovation books of 2009, and, most recently, Design Thinking for the Greater Good

Jeanne wandered into design thinking when she was searching for a way to be more effective in teaching managers about strategic planning. In contrast, she points out, most people think of strategic planning as a deadly, dull task of filling out paperwork that never goes anywhere. In her search for ways to make the process more interesting and to convey its importance, she hit on design. In our conversation today, she relates how she began using architecture as a metaphor for strategic thinking.

In this episode, Jeanne offers insight into how to teach design thinking. The learning experience should be project-based, she explains. The project should matter to the people who are working on it. The learning experience should also be delivered in a way that meets where these people are in that project and avoids overwhelming them. She'll also discuss some of the challenges that are facing design thinking as it continues to evolve. Jeanne explains why it is that the more you move into designing strategy and policy, the harder it is to use some of the powerful tools of design thinking.

In This Episode

[02:17] — Jeanne kicks things off by sharing some of the journey that brought her to where she is today, and explores how she discovered and developed an interest in design thinking. [06:48] — After spending five or six years exploring design thinking in business, it became obvious to Jeanne that a lot of the most powerful uses were happening in the social sector. [08:08] — What were some of the surprises that Jeanne found while writing her most recent book? [10:25] — Jeanne talks about what she would say or what advice she would give if she encountered someone at a party who was interested in bringing design thinking into what they do. [13:07] — We hear more about Jeanne has seen the initial steps of getting out into the world (and out of the conference room) in terms of common challenges. [16:38] — Jeanne discusses an example of what she has been talking about being done particularly well. [20:05] — What are some of the emerging challenges facing design thinking as a methodology or toolkit? [22:55] — Dawan takes a moment to talk about design thinking at the organizational level, in terms of reliability. Jeanne then talks about how things in design thinking are evolving on the measurement front. [27:38] — From Dawan's perspective, one of the benefits to having more measurement tools is related to having conversations with funders or people who need a different kind of evidence before trying a new way of solving problems. [27:59] — In order to promulgate the method, we need to get serious about measurement, Jeanne explains. [29:10] — Jeanne expands on the previous topic of emerging developments in the realm of strategy and design thinking by giving a specific example of the Children's Medical Center Dallas. [34:17] — One of the things that Jeanne is committed to is thinking about how to help people take this toolkit and accelerate the ways we're using it toward more strategic policy-level questions. [34:53] — What are some of the key things to keep an eye on with regard to how design thinking pushes into strategy and implementation? [37:12] — Dawan is often asked how we prototype the intangible. [39:41] — Jeanne talks about how design criteria factor into her approach to design thinking. [43:51] — Jeanne offers a specific example of what she has been talking about. [46:12] — What Jeanne has been talking about goes back to the idea of "job to be done," she explains. [47:22] — One of the other things that comes to mind for Dawan involves people's first introduction to design thinking. Jeanne then talks about the relationship between design thinking and the assumptions that we carry into creating new stuff. [51:08] — Jeanne talks more about making a good design team inside an organization. [57:18] — We hear more about bringing people to a point where they can comfortably facilitate or lead design experiences with others. [61:54] — What does Jeanne think about the "inside outsiders" in larger organizations? [64:11] — Jeanne talks about what she would do if she had a magic wand she could wave and get thousands of people excited about researching a particular topic, and sharing the results with her. [67:41] — Where can people find more about Jeanne, her work, and her books?

Links and Resources

Jeanne's website Jeanne at the University of Virginia Jeanne on LinkedIn Jeanne on Twitter The Catalyst: How You Can Lead Extraordinary Growth by Jeanne Liedtka Designing for Growth: A Design Thinking Tool Kit for Managers by Jeanne Liedtka The Physics of Business Growth: Mindsets, Systems, and Processes by Jeanne Liedtka Solving Business Problems with Design Thinking: Ten Stories of What Works by Jeanne Liedtka The Designing for Growth Field Book: A Step-by-Step Project Guide by Jeanne Liedtka Design Thinking for the Greater Good: Innovation in the Social Sector by Jeanne Liedtka Frank Gehry Children's Medical Center Dallas Peter Senge