Shannon Minkel, Senior Director of Product SEO at Siege Media, joins Ross Hudgens to unpack one of the biggest questions in search right now: did Google just kill rank tracking beyond page two?

They explore what this shift means for SEOs—whether it’s a sign to finally focus on input metrics, how declining referral traffic from ChatGPT impacts strategy, and what Similarweb and Siege Media’s own research reveal about changing engagement rates.

From GA4 benchmarks to the future of AI search, this episode breaks down the data, the rumors, and the real-world implications for anyone navigating SEO in 2025.

Plus: input metrics, lagging indicators, Similarweb’s ChatGPT data, and why Google’s rumored “AI mode” rollout could redefine how we measure success.

0:08 – Why Google’s rank tracking changes matter now

1:14 – Is rank tracking beyond page two dead?

2:36 – The rise of input metrics and controllable KPIs

4:09 – ChatGPT referral traffic declines across Siege, Ahrefs & Profound

6:12 – Similarweb’s data on ChatGPT usage growth vs. declining engagement

8:04 – What lagging indicators like ChatGPT quality mean for SEOs

9:28 – Interpreting GA4 engagement rates and site health signals

11:05 – Google’s rumored AI mode rollout (and roll-back)

13:17 – The future of attribution in a generative search world

15:21 – How SEOs should adapt reporting for execs in 2025

17:43 – Why input metrics may replace old rank-tracking habits

20:05 – What Shannon is watching most closely in AI search

Shannon Minkel on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannonminkel

GA4 engagement rates → https://www.siegemedia.com/research/ga4-engagement-rates

ChatGPT referral traffic study → https://www.siegemedia.com/strategy/chatgpt-referral-traffic-data

SEJ: https://searchengineland.com/google-search-rank-and-position-tracking-is-a-mess-right-now-461984

Similarweb on ChatGPT growth: https://x.com/Similarweb/status/1965726707832528974

SEMrush: https://www.semrush.com/blog/google-usage-after-chatgpt-adoption/

ChatGPT vs. Google study: https://chatgpt-vs-google.com/

Input Metrics for SEO newsletter: https://newsletter.seomba.com/p/input-metrics-for-seo

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