My guest is Kurt Johnson Co-author of The Moon Tavern, A Culinary Love Story With Recipes. The Moon Tavern takes the reader on a romantic and culinary journey through the Islands of Croatia, where dark family secrets are revealed, quirky friends and relatives are found, and love is discovered.Vesna, or Ves, is a cookbook writer from Minneapolis who travels to the remote, exotic island of Lastovo off Croatia's Mediterranean coast to reconnect with her biological grandmother. She'd been adopted as a young child after her parents died in the Yugoslav Wars of the 1990s. Ves is also fleeing a frayed relationship with her live-in partner, Reed.In Lastovo, she meets Dinko, a single, handsome, and wealthy vineyard owner, and his cute daughter Mia. With his help with the translation, Ves discovers her biological family's history and the dark secrets of what happened during the war. Romance, travel, and cooking ensue. She ultimately learns what matters most to her: simplicity in life, closeness with family, and someone to share love with. And, of course, food!

Stephanie [00:00:00]:

Hello, everybody, and welcome to Dishing with Stephanie’s Dish, the podcast where we talk to people in the food space and other spaces. All the spaces of all the fun things. Kurt is my spouse, Kurt Johnson, and also the co author of the Moon Tavern, a culinary romance with recipes. It is a fiction book that is available on your bookshelf now. Welcome to the podcast, Kurt.

Kurt Johnson [00:00:22]:

Hi, thanks for having me.

Stephanie [00:00:24]:

Thanks for having us. The idea that we should work on a book together. I am, as many of you listening know, a cookbook writer and my husband is a fiction writer. And somewhere along the way, we decided that maybe it would be good to collaborate together. Kurt, was it you or me that had the idea first? I think it was you.

Kurt Johnson [00:00:42]:

Yeah, probably. I was kind of done with my past book writing about Las Vegas and looking for something different. And we’d been traveling a lot, so going to Croatia, going to Italy, going out west, going to Turkey. So I wanted to incorporate travel with a novel, and I also wanted to incorporate food. And so I thought this would be a lot of fun. Since we’re traveling together, we have those shared experiences and you have the food experience and the food writing experience. So I thought it’d be a fun collaboration. And I’ve always liked the idea of love stories.

Kurt Johnson [00:01:18]:

Even my thriller books in Las Vegas had kind of a love story element. And it adds a dimension to a novel that, I don’t know, makes it cohesive, makes it pull together in an emotional arc that’s kind of fulfilling in the end.

Stephanie [00:01:33]:

Do you think you’re a romantic at heart, or what is it about romances that are fun to write for you?

Kurt Johnson [00:01:39]:

Maybe I’m a romance at heart. I may be more stoic than that, though. I just. I like the idea of seeing people get together, seeing people enjoy the same interests and finding people that can fall in love. Of course, that’s always the fun part. The hard part is once you get married and move on from there and have to deal with kids and daily life and work and all the other things that go with living life. And that’s not that much fun to write.

Stephanie [00:02:07]:

Yeah, exactly. We as a couple, I think I can speak for me and you maybe on this one. We’ve always had great experiences traveling. We are good traveling companions. We like the spirit of adventure. Did you know that Croatia would be the spot for the first fiction endeavor?

Kurt Johnson [00:02:24]:

Yeah, that was a given since we’d been there five times and four times running a sailboat and visiting the islands. And as you know, Stephanie, I’m just enamored with those islands, I think they’re so beautiful. And there was one island we discovered out there, Lastovo, which is the furthest island out. So a lot of the sailors and tourists just never get there. They stay closer to shore. So, you know, going out there the first time, this beautiful bay of Zachlopedia, where, you know, it’s a, it’s a protective cove which is beautiful turquoise water. And then taking the dinghy in, and then you walk up this path, I think it’s about a two mile hike. And then you go over this ridge and this 16th, 15th century town opens up.

Kurt Johnson [00:03:10]:

You know, at one point maybe it had 10,000 residents. And, and it, it, when we first saw it, I don’t know, 10, 15 years ago, it was abandoned. So it was a ghost town of 15th century buildings and churches and apartments in this beautiful valley of lush green foliage. So that’s very picturesque. We had an incredible meal there of just simple anchovies and blitfa. And for you, for you people out there that don’t know, blitfa is ubiquitous in Croatia. And it’s, it’s just spring potatoes with Swiss chard, but it’s served with everything.

Stephanie [00:03:52]:

It is served with everything. And they sometimes have spinach, sometimes have like another type of green, but it’s sort of like the potatoes are cooked till they’re pretty soft, and then it’s kind of mashed in a little bit. So it’s not fully a mashed potato and it’s not fully a roasted potato. It’s sort of a combination of both. But it is good.

Kurt Johnson [00:04:12]:

Yeah, so, yeah, that’s so, you know, it seemed such an exotic place, the island of Lastovo in Croatia, that it was a natural to place it there.

Stephanie [00:04:23]:

Can you tell a little bit of just an introduction of the story, like what people will find when they crack open the book?

Kurt Johnson [00:04:30]:

Sure. It’s about Vesna, who is. Has a breakup with her live in boyfriend, and they’d had a restaurant. She was a chef, a cookbook authority, and had a restaurant, not unlike my dear wife Stephanie. And she has a breakup and she leaves Minneapolis to go to Croatia to uncover her. Her heritage. She had been adopted from Croatia, specifically Dubrovnik, when her parents died in the Serb bombing of Dubrovnik in 1991. So she was adopted out of there and raised in Minnesota.

Kurt Johnson [00:05:05]:

So then she goes to Croatia and rediscovers her dark family secrets and meets Dinko Radek, who is a winery owner, and, you know, romance ensues. But she has a life still back in Minneapolis that she has to go back to and resolve.

Stephanie [00:05:24]:

When we talked about putting this first concept together, you know, I see the world through food. Like, literally everything in sort of my life is framed by a meal, an experience, just the way that I see the world. It’s always around food, celebrations. And so did you know that that would work for this Croatia book? Because I didn’t. When you first brought it up, I was like, I can’t be a Croatian grandma here. And writing recipes about what at the time I perceived as, like, dumplings.

Kurt Johnson [00:05:53]:

Yeah, I wasn’t sure either, frankly. You know, so each chapter, there’s 25 chapters, and each chapter in it has a description of cooking. And it’s all Croatia cooking, Croatia recipes. You know, all food we at over the years where we were there. And then the idea of tagging on recipes was just kind of bringing it home. Like, here’s the Croatia experience. Now here’s how Stephanie would bring that back to the real world, which is here in the United States.

Stephanie [00:06:21]:

We have talked about doing a series of books. What is it about this genre that you think lends itself to other titles and other characters?

Kurt Johnson [00:06:29]:

Well, you know, it’s an adventure book on one level, and there’s always new places to visit. So the next book is based in Panza, Italy, where we’ve been a couple times. And it’s this beautiful island off the coast of Italy in the Mediterranean. And, you know, Italian food. You go to Italy and what you remember is the pizza in Naples or the. The pasta in Rome and. And the busteca up in the hills. So, you know, a way to experience a place is.

Kurt Johnson [00:07:04]:

Is through food. And I like writing about new settings. You know, it. It’s not as interesting writing about Minnesota,

Stephanie [00:07:11]:

but you’ve written a lot about Las Vegas. You’ve had how many books about Las Vegas? Three.

Kurt Johnson [00:07:16]:

Yeah, three. You know, two of the. Of kind of a thriller in. Two thrillers in a series, and then a book about RVing that ends up in. In Las Vegas. And Las Vegas is a interesting place, and I lived there for five years running nightclubs and restaurants. And so two of the books are Underbelly of Las Vegas, which I was a part of in the nightclub scene back in the late 80s. So that’s just flat out fun to write about.

Kurt Johnson [00:07:39]:

And Las Vegas is such a weirdo place that it’s fun to bring that to life.

Stephanie [00:07:45]:

It’s interesting to hear you talk about that. The way you choose your stories is about place, because the first book, the Barrens, that you wrote with our Daughter Ellie, inspired by her experiences as a canoe camper in the tundra. That’s also based in Place, too. Place is sort of what starts you on these journeys. It seems like, yeah, you know something,

Kurt Johnson [00:08:07]:

you threw me a curveball because I never really thought about it. But you’re exactly right.

Stephanie [00:08:12]:

All.

Kurt Johnson [00:08:12]:

All these books start off with a setting, with a place, and then, you know, the plots revolve around. Around that. And there’s just so many. So many different. There’s a finite number of, really, plots you can choose from. It’s kind of like a piano keyboard has all the. The notes that you want to make up a. A music piece the same way with plot structures.

Kurt Johnson [00:08:34]:

And so to take it to the next level, you really have to search out characters, and the characters are in a setting, so those two are inexplicably, Inextricably. Inextricably linked. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, the two go hand in hand. So character and place really can set a novel apart.

Stephanie [00:08:59]:

Can you think of other books that you’ve written or. Excuse me. No, not that you’ve written, that you’ve read. Where Place sort of started you off on this adventure?

Kurt Johnson [00:09:07]:

Yeah, probably. I really love Beautiful Ruins.

Stephanie [00:09:11]:

Jess Walters.

Kurt Johnson [00:09:13]:

Walters, yeah. And that starts off in Italy, kind of near Cinque de Terre. And it’s kind of the poor version of Cinque de Terre, where the tourists don’t go. And it was such a fascinating story. And then they bring that all back to Hollywood in America, and it just works so well. But what really captures your imagination is the description of this little seaside community. Before the whole plot takes over, I

Stephanie [00:09:41]:

kind of think about that book. The Embarrassment of Mangoes.

Kurt Johnson [00:09:44]:

Yeah.

Stephanie [00:09:44]:

When you and I first started sailing and going on these adventures, we read that book. It was about a couple that buys a boat and sails through the Caribbean, and she is discovering spices and fruits and vegetables and things that she’s never eaten before. And I just loved that book. It was really what got me into sailing and thinking about how to make that our life and whether or not, you know, we could buy a boat and do that. And that boat really had a huge setting of place. Can you think of, like. I don’t know. When I think of other books, there’s very few books that I think about character first.

Stephanie [00:10:19]:

I usually always think about the place. Maybe that’s just something.

Kurt Johnson [00:10:22]:

Or the plot, too. Yeah, they’re all just linked together. And you don’t think about. Well, you were saying you don’t think about character as much.

Stephanie [00:10:31]:

Not really.

Kurt Johnson [00:10:32]:

Yeah, it’s funny. I think, you know, the best books people say are character driven, but they’re inexplicable. What’s the word again?

Stephanie [00:10:41]:

Inextricably.

Kurt Johnson [00:10:43]:

Inextricably. Trouble with that. Linked. So, you know, you pick a place and you pick a plot and then you build these characters. The characters have to build around that plot and so they kind of naturally flow. And, and I, I think they, if they’re well written and honest, you shouldn’t think of them. You know, they’re interesting characters and you’ll say, you know, this is Rabbit and the Rabbit series. And you’ll know, but you won’t say, oh, that’s just a great character.

Kurt Johnson [00:11:10]:

I, I, I don’t know that I certainly, you know, I’m probably deep into it and I look at the craft a lot so I can see where somebody has really spent some time to develop an honest character or where, you know, the narrative voice comes through and, and a character comes to life through this first person narrative voice. So I see that a lot more

Stephanie [00:11:30]:

people have a real, like they can’t believe you can write a book. Like the idea of the literal act of sitting down and writing and how that works. People fantasize about writing it, but then very few people do. What was it that got you over the hump from thinking about writing it to actually sitting down and doing it?

Kurt Johnson [00:11:47]:

Well, selling our business and all of a sudden being able to free up time. Because for me, novel writing and I think was it Chrisham talked about, you know, writing at 5 in the morning before he goes to work at 7. I just couldn’t do that. You know, I just, I’m very focused on one thing and, and so I needed to free up my time from work in order to get going. And then it was, can you put together, you know, a thousand or fifteen hundred words every day so that it links up into a novel and have that, not only that, that discipline, but also have the creative juices to produce scenes almost every day because, you know, like a, a good novel is created from 50 scenes. So I went from, you know, writing a memoir that I probably won’t publish just to see if I can get, you know, a thousand words every day and put this together to then writing Las Vegas turnaround. And there I, I, I really just copied a lot of plot structures that I saw that I liked. And so it was easier for me to set up main characters, set up tertiary characters, subplots, because I had a blueprint from somebody else.

Kurt Johnson [00:12:56]:

And then, and then once, you know, you Keep writing. You get muscle memory for it and it becomes more, more natural and actually more fun because it becomes more organic. You’ll follow characters through a town and they’ll meet somebody and all of a sudden that person becomes a character in their universe and they say something and all of a sudden that takes off and you have to follow it. Now, you know, the woman’s gonna fall in love with a guy at the end. But getting there is the fun part. And now I can do that a lot more organically.

Stephanie [00:13:27]:

If you are talking to any aspiring novel writers, what kind of advice do you have for them to get started?

Kurt Johnson [00:13:34]:

Well, you know, you gotta lower your expectations just because publishing is so hard, you know.

Stephanie [00:13:39]:

Can you elaborate on that?

Kurt Johnson [00:13:41]:

Well, you know, there’s maybe two or three or 400 agents, most of them in New York City and they’re all trying to make a buck. And it’s hard to make a buck off a debut writer. It helps if you’re MFA and you’re writing in a genre because, you know, let’s say 70% of the books are read by women and 70% of those are romances. And then men, the other 30%, probably 80% of what they read are, you know, thrillers or mysteries. So if you can pick a genre, that always helps. But yeah, it, you have to be more thoughtful about it. And I think, I think so many first time writers, you know, once they get the discipline and put, put the, the words on a page, they write that first personal novel, you know, and I wrote my memoir and it’s, it’s really 90% of those, they, you know, people have the, they aspire for the great American novel and it’s too personal, it’s too close to home. They can’t break out from the reality of their lives to have fun with the plot and make things happen.

Kurt Johnson [00:14:45]:

So a lot of times these books, nothing happens. They’re deeply emotional books where nothing happens and they’re, they’re excruciatingly boring. So you gotta get past that phase and then you gotta look at it as a, as a craft. And, you know, a big chunk of it’s art, of course, whatever you wanna call that, you know, shedding light on the human experience. But a big chunk is craft. And I don’t think you can get to the craft for most people in that first book. So you gotta keep writing, you know, and realize that the first couple books may not get published. So, you know, the barons got published.

Kurt Johnson [00:15:21]:

That was one, two, that was my third, fourth book, you know, and the, and two, the, the first three, two of them were duds that will never be published.

Stephanie [00:15:31]:

Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, it’s good to chat with you about the book. We are in the marketing process of the book. I feel like books come in three waves. One is the idea that you’re thinking about it. The second, the actual writing of it. And then the third is actual the marketing of it.

Stephanie [00:15:48]:

What do you think’s the hardest part?

Kurt Johnson [00:15:49]:

Well, I mean, it’s. The hardest part’s finding an agent and finding a publisher. Then if you self publish, the hardest part is marketing. And at least it is for me because writing is so natural and fun for me. But I think for most people, you know, the writing’s a hard part. And, and you know, like the Minnesota writer o’, Brien, he hates writing, so he forces himself. Tim o’. Brien.

Kurt Johnson [00:16:12]:

So he forces himself to get those books out there. So probably that’s the hardest part for him.

Stephanie [00:16:17]:

We had, I had a cookbook, two cookbooks out and I had a publisher, but they didn’t publish this book because it was a fiction book. I think some people just assume like, oh, well, they’ve already had books out, but we self published this book. Why did we make that decision from your standpoint?

Kurt Johnson [00:16:33]:

Well, we couldn’t get an A list agent or a New York publisher. There’s just not, it comes off as almost a debut book and it’s hard for them to make any money. So if you can’t get an A lister, then you’re, you know, stuck with boutique publishing companies and others and, and they just don’t support the marketing of your book. And I’ve self published books in the past, so I know how to do it. I know how to put a professional product out there. And, and we can, you know, both of us are marketers and, and Stephanie has a large platform, so we can do a lot of our own marketing or, or outsource it, you know, but still we retain most of the profits. So when we do the marketing, we can reinvested or keep those profits.

Stephanie [00:17:17]:

Yeah, I, when you say profits, it sounds like there’s a lot there. I’d like to, I mean, I mean,

Kurt Johnson [00:17:22]:

maybe, maybe we broke it even at this point, but then now we’re looking at a marketing PR firm that’s going to set us back another $5,000. But you know, if, if these books succeed and somebody makes a lot of money, it’s the, it’s the third, you know, book that’s going to put them over the top. It’s not the first.

Stephanie [00:17:40]:

I have this idea too that we’re going to write these books and then sooner or later someone’s going to turn them into a T series because it’s going to be like the White Lotus where each season is a different location and a different cast of characters, but sort of the general premise is sort of the same.

Kurt Johnson [00:17:56]:

I hope so. You know, I hope an A list agent comes along and, and frees us from our servitude or whatever. And, but, and yeah, you know, there’s, there’s plenty of stories of self published authors that, that get deals or even boutique. Boutique authors that get deals. So you know, we can dream.

Stephanie [00:18:16]:

One thing that I’d like the listener to hear is what their part is in this because we’ve. I was leaving the coffee shop today. We’re in Ely. That is the vacation backgrounds. But.

Kurt Johnson [00:18:25]:

Right.

Stephanie [00:18:25]:

I was leaving the coffee shop today and a woman stopped me and said, Stephanie, I had the opportunity to read the Moon Tavern. It’s so good. I loved it so much. And she’s telling me about it and telling her friend. And I have that experience a lot where people have really, really enjoyed this book. And I just want the listener to know that leaving reviews on Goodreads or Amazon or Barnes and Noble or wherever you bought the book or if you can’ find a book, asking for it at your local bookseller. Cause they can always order it when you’re self published. The more buzz you can create about these books, the better chance that someone will hear about it, someone will buy it and eventually a publisher, if they hear about a book and they like it, then they may pick it up.

Stephanie [00:19:03]:

So I think if you like what you’re reading and you want to see more of this type of work in the world and books that you like, that’s something that you can do to help us out.

Kurt Johnson [00:19:13]:

Yes, a 5 on Amazon or top rating on any other Goodreads is good too. Yeah, it’s, it’s all, it’s all good. So yes, those, those help a lot. Just because the more reviews you can get and the more five star reviews you get, the more people will pick up the book, the more buzz you’ll get. So yeah, so it helps us immeasurably.

Stephanie [00:19:35]:

Another thing before we wrap up here, someone asked me about the Cover of the book. Do you want to talk about how you picked the artwork?

Kurt Johnson [00:19:41]:

Yeah, I was pretty much online Xee Reider, she’s in St. Paul and she’s a muralist mostly. And I really liked the look that she had. So I reached out to her, and she did the original artwork, and then each chapter ends with a recipe, and there’s a pen and ink drawing, and she did those. And I really think that adds another level to the book. And I love a beautiful cover.

Stephanie [00:20:10]:

Yeah, the cover is really nice. She did a great job. All right, well, that is it for this episode of the podcast. Just want to chat with you and give people a little background. Thanks for being a guest.

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