Dishing with Stephanie's Dish

Kelsey Lee, owner of Potluck Kitchenware Store in Ely, Minnesota, shares how her business navigated the challenges of wildfires, the unique culinary traditions of the Northwoods, and the importance of community and learning. Discover her insights on store curation, local culture, and must-have kitchen tools.

A few items mentioned in the Podcast available at POTLUCK

Pierogi Love and The Elements of Baking

Visit Ely, Minnesota for fun things to do year-round! Whether you are looking for a place to stay, a delicious meal, a hiking trail, or an immersion experience, we have businesses ready to meet your needs.

Original Transcript Follows:

Stephanie Hansen (00:01.176)

Hello everybody, welcome to Dishing with Stephanie’s Dish, the podcast where we talk to people in the food space. And today I’m with Kelsey Lee. She is the owner of Potluck Kitchenware Store. And Potluck is in Ely, Minnesota, which is my second home. And I’ve been doing a little mini-series to help people get familiar with some of the businesses that have been impacted by the wildfires this summer. The wildfires, as we currently stand, are in a high form of containment.

Smoke in the town has been virtually non existent and people are coming back to Ely, but it has been a dramatic turn in what was looking to be a great summer. Welcome to the program, Kelsey.

Kelsey Lee (00:41.088)

Thank you so much for having me on.

Stephanie Hansen (00:44.2)

What does it feel like when, you know, you’re starting out on your summer and July fourth has just happened and something that you couldn’t have predicted as a business owner, like a wildfire comes into town?

Kelsey Lee (00:50.389)

it feels like such a jolt and especially with wildfire there’s a there’s this sense of kind of unknown danger known but unknown danger and i this was the first summer of wildfires that were quite close to town during my time of owning the business the last time we had any a wildfire anywhere near potluck or elite large

I was an employee of Potluck. I wasn’t the owner. So I was making, I was sort of executing on decisions as opposed to making them myself. So, you know, your first thought is about air quality and evacuation zones and all of that. And then sort of secondarily you wonder if it means the end of the season. And for me this year, that was an especially weighty question because what I’ve seen over the last couple of years is that our what what

is commonly known as our summer season, actually extends quite far into the fall. I’ve seen growing sales numbers in September and October over the last couple of years. And so you really don’t want to see your season kind of come to a close when really it’s like just getting started. But I’m really happy to say that what I’ve seen is very much to the contrary. This so two weekends ago on what would have been our blueberry art festival

I saw huge numbers of people in town. I had amazing sales. I’ve talked to other business owners who had a similar experience. So it feels like our kind of recurring visitors and also our seasonal residents have really rallied to support Ely. and I personally am just so grateful for all of the messaging around Ely is open for business, like conditions here are safe, we welcome you, we encourage you to do your Christmas shopping. all of that

for in my case and the case of many of the retailers I’ve spoken to has just been incredibly successful.

Stephanie Hansen (02:59.584)

It’s kind of funny because I am a person that does a reverse commute. I my husband lives in Ely in the summer and I usually head there on Saturday in the afternoon and come home on like a Monday or a Tuesday. And the air quality in the Twin Cities has actually been worse than in Ely. So it’s it’s been a kind of a strange summer.

How hard is it? So you have a great selection of cookbooks. You really do a great job of curating. You’ve got all the cast iron things that one would expect at a kitchen store in the Northwoods, but you’ve also got beautiful dishware, some small appliances, all the cute funny towels and napkins and cocktail and entertaining things that you might use at the cabin. How do you curate the store?

With such a big percentage of folks being summer residents, does it change?

Think it’s a really interesting challenge. I actually love doing the buying for the store. I do it all myself because my market really exists as like three segments. And over the years of working here and then being an owner-operator, I’ve really gotten to know those segments by their general characteristics, but also individuals, right? So I’m getting feedback and product requests and things all the time. and so I think of my customer market as being comprised of seasonal residents. So people who come up for the summer, like you you have a s you have a second home, you have a second kitchen, you’re hosting, you’re cooking, you are really looking for anything you would be looking for at your main home in your kitchen, right? So like I’m I’m stocking a lot of the supplies that series cooks and bakers need on a regular basis. And then my second market are what I would say what I would call are are kind of like pass-through visitors or

Are guests of the seasonal residents. So these people, they’re looking for souvenirs, they’re looking for hostess gifts. For those folks, the size and weight of items is very, very important. People are looking for something to tuck into their luggage, or they’re looking for like a last-minute gadget or something to use on a boundary waters trip. So that’s maybe the most varied kind of use case scenario in that second group.

and then my third segment are my year-round residents. and their needs vary quite a bit as well. they comprise just a huge percentage of my holiday market, which has been great that we’ve brought in more holiday specific things, both decor, but really mainly all of the specialty holiday baking over the last few years. and the local market has just grown and grown as I’ve learned what people are making. and what they need in the kitchen around that time of year.

Stephanie Hansen (05:55.673)

What do you find are people making? Is it different than what you expected? Like are you, you know, is it bunt pans and cast iron or is it sourdough accessories and

Kelsey Lee (06:09.55)

Yeah, huge. I sell huge numbers of Benettons and LOMS and proofing containers and all of that for sourdough. Sourdough is big year-round, I think is really exciting to say. but what I find most exciting is that especially around the holidays, the cultural culinary traditions of this area really come alive. So people are asking for things for lefsa or

Sandbuckles or I’m sure I didn’t say that quite right. or petitsa, of course. and so it’s fun to try to as I’m accommodating those requests, learn about which families have which culinary heritage, you know, and over time you sort of learn like, yes, this family, they make leftsa on Black Friday or the Saturday or whatever. So we really have a surprising

range of not only wants, but really needs, you know, because many people in this area are making all of their bread from scratch. They’re making all of their yogurt. They are participating in, you know, a CSA or they’re taking like a butchering class at the folk school. And so the needs really vary, which just makes it exciting from a buying standpoint.

Stephanie Hansen (07:24.78)

I’ve been going to Ely for 35 years. and I can say that the culinary world there has expanded and changed, with the folk school certainly offering more classes, but also I think during COVID, a whole new type of person moved into Ely, younger folks, more families.

I have seen a lot more people coming from either coasts and coming for the water, the nature, and just the lovely changing of the seasons in Ely. Has that changed things for you or made it more interesting?

Kelsey Lee (08:03.153)

Yes, much more interesting.

And over the last year I’ve really solidified a partnership with the folk school in terms of not only sponsoring all of their nourishment program areas, but just increased communication with them about upcoming cooking classes. and this last spring we collaborated on a pie dough making workshop at one of the like spring women’s retreats at YMCA Camp du Nord up here. so I I

I see the folk school as being really a critical kind of partner for people, for me to grow awareness of my business, but also as far as preserving and sharing the culinary traditions of this area.

Stephanie Hansen (08:52.471)

The director of the folk school, Lucy, is my daughter’s WIDJI sister. They went on a a long camping adventure together and have been friends ever since, you know, when you are in the Arctic for 30 some days with someone, you really form a bond. And it’s been fun to watch Lucy and that folk school grow. And also the Duluth folk school is also growing. So just getting that awareness of, you know, that there’s a lot of things to do in the North Woods, even if you’re not a paddler necessarily.

Kelsey Lee (09:23.896)

Yes. Yes, absolutely. And I see the folk school as being like, you know, if if you’re gonna connect with one touch point for activities and and even community events in the Northwoods, I think the folk school is it. Absolutely. Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen (09:38.325)

It’s interesting too. You know, I’m part of the pickleball club in Ely that’s fairly new. There’s also the folk school. There are a ton of events that are happening through Ely Connect, which is geared more towards new residents. I really am impressed and excited about the future of Ely just for myself as I spend more time there. And maybe, you know, at some point I’ll

I don’t know, am I ever gonna retire? Probably not, but the ideas in my mind that I could and that there is a place that has such a rich learning path is really kind of fun.

Kelsey Lee (10:11.699)

Yes. my friends and collaborators at Boundary Waters Connect do a bunch of things. They connect with perspective and new residents. They host the Tuesday group series in town and they

very accurately characterize Ely as a super curious community. This is a place where people are very skilled. They’re sometimes quiet about the skills that they hold. But if you show genuine interest, people are more than happy to share with you the skills that they have acquired on their own, skills they learned through their family. It’s a place that is very fertile ground for non-competitive and intergenerational learning, which is really beautiful.

Stephanie Hansen (11:03.747)

There’s also a lot of diverse political beliefs in Ely that seem to exist side by side in a way that I’ve never seen anywhere else. You have people that have very intense passions about the boundary waters and wanting to prevent mining from going into the boundary waters. And then you also have a very robust community of people that believe that the prosperity of the town historically and potentially in the future is based on mining. And these two things seem to be able to coexist in this really small town of mutual respect and understanding for the most part. it it makes I think Ely so unique in that, you know, you could go and learn how to build a birch bark canoe next to someone that might be completely different than you ideologically.

But yet also your neighbor. And I love that that is how this community is fostering growth in learning and growth in how the town is growing. Are you have you experienced that as new people have come in?

Kelsey Lee (12:10.818)

Yes, absolutely. and I think that comes from it feels a little a little like old-fashioned neighborliness, which can sometimes swing in sort of a gossipy direction when we think about, you know, that small town living. And there’s always gonna be an element of that there. But really it comes in my experience, the respect and tolerance comes from a deep understanding that we all need each other.

Because of where we live, because of the seasonality of our economy, because our winters and even our summers can be very harsh in certain ways. we have a reliance on our neighbors. And we need those relationships, you know, to look out for not only ourselves but also our community. yeah.

Stephanie Hansen (13:00.373)

Yeah. I you do get that sense of, you know, like I’ve been there w in the wintertime when, you know, you get a foot and a half of snow and you need your neighbor to plow you out and you’re standing at the end of the driveway as someone comes by with a plow and you’re like, Hey, can you help me out? Or your car gets stranded or

Kelsey Lee (13:17.949)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And people are more than willing to help. It is this is the first place I have lived with that kind of

that kind of neighborliness and it is I’ll be honest it can be a little foreign and a little like suspicious at first. so a story I like to tell is when my husband and I moved to Ely as we were and I don’t know how this came about at all. To this day I have no idea. But I have a lovely neighbor named Alana. She somehow found out not only

the day that we were arriving, like moving into our house, but also roughly the time that we were arriving. And as we pulled into our garage, she was standing in the yard with the neighbor from the other side and they were there ready to greet us. and if you’re moving from a big city or you’ve never experienced that before, it feels really odd and it feels like people are surveilling you or you’re you know whatever. but really it comes from that kind of old fashioned spirit of like we want to welcome you, we want to know who you are, because we want to immediately have this sort of neighborly relationship with you. so that that stories like that prevail all over town.

Stephanie Hansen (14:40.599)

Yeah, I would agree with that. All right. So since you’re the kitchen expert, I have to ask you some kitchenware things. could you tell me three things that you’re excited about in the store for cooks?

Kelsey Lee (14:55.008)

Yes, absolutely. I actually have I have a little cart here of products that I really want to show. so the first and this one is geared a little towards people who like are in a cabin, are on the go, you know, s have are space limited in their house. I’m really proud to say that as of a couple of months ago, Potla Kitchenware is a retailer for Vitamix, which is a fantastic brand, of course.

This is their five-speed immersion blender. What I love about this is this will blend ice for you. This will do anything that a normal blender will do. It’s not just for soups, it’s not just for mashed potatoes. this is a workhorse in the kitchen and it it weighs quite a bit for an immersion blender, but it takes up virtually no room compared to your standard kind of countertop blender. so the the larger point I want to make with this is that.

to get the power that you need, you don’t always need the appliance with the biggest footprint. Especially when you’re when you’re looking at a quality brand like Vitamix. So this one I love. Absolutely, yes. And that’s part of my something I’m managing always is either somebody is in one of the many houses in Ely with teeny tiny kitchens or they’re in a cabin or they’re in a travel trailer or whatever. So space is always at a premium for my customers here at the store.

Yeah, and in a small space.

Stephanie Hansen (16:21.251)

Right, so that’s a great recommendation. I didn’t even know they had an immersion blender.

Kelsey Lee (16:24.988)

It’s fantastic. Yes, yes, yes. another thing that I love is this, which is a really odd. This is an odd looking thing. this is one of many high-functioning, colorful, bizarre looking tools from a company called Dream Farm. They are based in Australia. They are next level when it comes to the functionality of kitchen tools.

They all have weird names and they all look really weird, but they’re fantastic. So this is their chopping spatula. The flexibility here is wonderful. This is what you want to use to get under eggs, under pancakes. it’s designed to sit on the counter like this, so it’s never gonna get your counter dirty. simplifies cleanup, and then this offset chopping edge you can use for like chopping ground beef in a skillet as you’re cooking.

it’s designed to give you that kind of cutting edge as well. so this is just one of many just fantastic designs from Dream Farm. so if you’re if you’re looking for something that’s not only like beautiful to look at in the kitchen, but also gonna give you added functionality, Dream Farm is a a brand that I love.

Stephanie Hansen (17:41.131)

It almost looks too like you could use it as like a what is that thing called when you’re making sourdough and you’re trying to get in and underneath the bread?

Kelsey Lee (17:49.165)

yeah yeah like a bench a bench scraper maybe. Yeah yeah it’s it’s flexible enough but also firm enough. I think you totally could. Yeah, yeah. Just kind of get get your dough started. Yeah, absolutely. yeah. And then you asked about things for cooks. So I am gonna show you this. So this is from Dubouillet, which is a French cookware manufacturer.

This is carbon steel, but this is kind of carbon steel meant for the every person. This is lower maintenance carbon steel. carbon steel is very much like cast iron in the sense that you typically have to establish and then maintain a layer of seasoning on carbon steel cookware. This one is from their blue carbon line. This one they heat treat at the factory. so you don’t have that seasoning maintenance for this. This you exactly.

Stephanie Hansen (18:45.539)

People will love that.

Kelsey Lee (18:47.007)

You use this right away. lower maintenance. And my favorite thing about this line, given where we’re located, is this you can use over a campfire. And it’s comparatively much lighter than carbon steel pans typically are. So this is great for a canoe trip. You just get one of the larger pans, it’s like you cook everything in it, safe to use over a campfire, cleans up super well. So I’ve been really thrilled to bring in

Stephanie Hansen (19:06.262)

Love it.

Kelsey Lee (19:16.094)

Not only the standard carbon steel, but also the blue from WA. Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen (19:20.941)

Okay, I like that and I’m always looking for the best nonstick pans because I do use my cast iron as a nonstick pan, but sometimes when you’re doing eggs you want something a little different.

Kelsey Lee (19:31.421)

Yes, yes, yes. And carbon steel, we’re predominantly a cast iron household, simply because cast iron lasts forever and we haven’t had a reason to upgrade to carbon steel, but carbon steel is just it’s it’s a smoothness that like you really don’t find with most modern cast iron. it’s just a fantastic cooking surface. Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen (19:52.601)

Okay, since I know you have a cart there, let’s do two more. Do you have two more things?

Kelsey Lee (19:56.559)

Yes, do you want things for cooks or do you want things for the home? Okay, perfect. so let’s see. one so one little thing that I want to share as like a shout out to bakers. so this is the Danish dough whisk from King Arthur Baking. It’s a triple loop, which some people look for. There’s a whole debate out there about how many loops you want in your dough whisk. this one I want to showcase because

I have been just thrilled that King Arthur is once again offering their their baking products, not their flowers, not their baking mixes, but their actual baking tools. They’ve recently made those available at wholesale. And that’s a big deal because they had a huge wholesale program prior to COVID, and then they suspended wholesale operations during COVID, and it’s been several years without.

that we haven’t been able to obtain these baking tools here at the store. So when I saw that they were available once again, I was just just so so happy. Yes. So King Arthur makes a fantastic cookie scoop and dough whisk and pastry brush and just a lot of those baking essentials. in addition to wonderful, wonderful cookbooks as well. They’re a go-to resource there too. yes. So that one I’m happy to showcase. And then

Stephanie Hansen (21:14.253)

Great.

Kelsey Lee (21:18.25)

I also want to show the very trendy, but appropriately so. These are geometry towels. these are made from entirely from recycled plastic water bottles. so a very sustainable choice. This is their, I’m gonna show you dimensionally. This is their kitchen towel. It’s it’s huge. It’s 18 by 30. It is

Stephanie Hansen (21:40.333)

Yeah, it’s huge.

Kelsey Lee (21:44.328)

incredibly absorbent of both liquid and dust. I use these here at the store to dust, just incredibly grippy no matter what you’re trying to clean up with them. and Geometry continues to partner with artists and designers. So they always have new capsule collections coming out and they are just so design forward. They’re light years ahead of all any other textile brand on the market. yes. So I love it. You’ve given me some things to come in and check out next week.

Kelsey Lee (22:15.817)

yes, yes, yes, yes. And they they have seasonal collections too, so they make great gifts. and they’ve recently unveiled table linens as well. table runners, placemats, all of those. Yes, yes.

Stephanie Hansen (22:27.188)

cute. Okay, before we leave, I’m gonna ask you for two cookbooks that you’re excited about because I know you’ve curated a lot of great cookbooks in the store.

Kelsey Lee (22:38.448)

Yeah. you’ll have to forgive me. I’m gonna turn around a little and just take a look. ooh, yes, so the first one is a very easy choice. This one is called The Elements of Baking by Katerina Sirmelsch. I’m sure I booked that. Apologies. Apologies, apologies. So this gives you for bakers, you know, bakers are like

That’s a very formula and sort of accuracy driven endeavor. And this gives you the formulas and tables that you need to make any recipe gluten-free, dairy-free, egg-free, or vegan. It is, yes. It is, it’s a bit of a tome. I mean it’s like it is a thick for sure. But this is just a page of photos of breaking down lumpy versus smooth pancake pattern.

Stephanie Hansen (23:20.877)

Wow. Okay. That’s helpful.

Stephanie Hansen (23:27.681)

Yeah, it’s a resource book.

Kelsey Lee (23:36.43)

You can see they give you a side-by-side. so if you’re somebody who is a trying to accommodate, trying to get away from recipes while accommodating gluten-free, dairy-free, egg-free, or or vegan eaters in your household or you yourself, I think this is a great resource to build that knowledge base to then be able to adapt any recipe yourself moving forward.

Stephanie Hansen (23:58.337)

I love it. All right, let’s go for one more cookbook and then we’ll wrap it up.

Kelsey Lee (24:03.287)

Perfect. what I want to go for here. So this maybe seems like an odd choice. so it’s pierogi love. Getting back to like you know culinary traditions. This one I brought into the store just to kind of round out my hand pie dumpling offering. And just this summer I think I’ve probably sold almost two dozen copies. People just love there’s something about a pierogi.

so I love this one because it’s not gonna take up a lot of space on your shelf, but you just get such a range of recipes in here. you have a photo for every recipe. and I just love the idea of like putting a ruben in a in a pierobi. You just you know you you take something, something large, something unexpected, put it in one of these, it’s just a delight. So

Stephanie Hansen (24:58.381)

The more diversity I’ve explored in the kitchen through the television show that I’m working on, I’ve realized like every culture has a hand pie, every culture has like a flatbread of something. It’s it’s very interesting when you start to just meet with people and how they all make their specialties from their heritage, but that how they’re all sort of linked also.

Kelsey Lee (25:06.238)

Yes. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I l I love that something as delightful as a flatbread or a hand pie is like truly a thread that unites all of us.

Stephanie Hansen (25:32.259)

For sure. And that sort of wraps up what we’ve been talking about, which is community and learning about your neighbors and supporting your neighbors. Kelsey, are you online for people to shop your store?

Kelsey Lee (25:45.063)

We are online. We’re not yet doing sales online. we actually just yesterday launched a a very beta version of our website, so you can find us at potluckkitchenware.com. our hope is to have at least gift card sales online in time for this upcoming holiday season. so you can find us online there. We are also on Facebook and on TikTok.

Stephanie Hansen (26:10.677)

Okay, we will make sure to follow you. Thanks for spending time with me today. You guys, please visit Ely. You can find a lot of information about Ely businesses at visitealiemn.org. they’ve got a whole list of all the businesses in town, events and Harvest Moon Festival is coming up in September. That’s a big event for the retailers and for folks to come to town in September. I’ll be looking forward to that. Kelsey, thanks for your time today.

Kelsey Lee (26:37.283)

Yes. Thank you so much, Stephanie. It was great to be with.

Stephanie Hansen (26:41.197)

All right, we’ll talk soon. Okay, bye bye.

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In this episode of Dishing with Stephanie’s Dish, host Stephanie Hansen speaks with Jordyn Stocks from Paragis Outfitters Bookstore about the impact of recent wildfires on the Ely community, the role of the bookstore in supporting local culture, and the hidden gems of Ely. They discuss the diverse offerings of the bookstore, including popular book recommendations and the importance of community support during challenging times.

Visit Ely, Minnesota for fun things to do year-round! Whether you are looking for a place to stay, a delicious meal, a hiking trail, or an immersion experience, we have businesses ready to meet your needs.

Stephanie Hansen (00:00.824)

Hello, everybody, and welcome to Dishing with Stephanie’s Dish, the podcast where we talk to people in the food space, but I also talk to other people too. And I’ve been doing a little mini-series here for VisitElyMN.com to help you get to know some of the cool Ely businesses. Ely is my second home. It is the place where I wrote the True North Cabin cookbook, and it’s very near and dear to my heart. And you may have heard that they

Have experienced some wildfires in the Boundary Waters Canoe area and around that area this summer. As of this recording, I think the fires are about 40 to 50% contained. Some of the evacuation areas have been lifted. And the town has just really done a great job of keeping people informed and safe. And I’m here today with Jordan Stocks. She is from Piragis Outfitters.

And she particularly runs the bookstore that opened gosh, it was last summer already, wasn’t it, Jordyn?

Jordyn Stocks (00:59.77)

Yes, yeah. So in the new space, we’ve been there since last May, but the bookstore itself has been around in some version for over 20 years now. So it’s

Stephanie Hansen (01:11.286)

So what happened is is there was in the Piragis store, there was the bookstore on the second level, and they used to have another building down the street that they did some surplus kind of sales, and they’ve merged a lot of that together inside this building. And then you guys have paddle boards and canoes also across the street. Piragis sort of owns this corner that has a lot of fun stuff going on in Ely and

I know that with the boundary waters permits being canceled and just opening up more recently to daytime. And I imagine we’ll get some more areas that’ll open up here as the summer progresses. Has it been a hard time for you guys at the store?

Jordyn Stocks (01:54.437)

It’s it’s yeah, it’s been a little bit different. It’s been a little quieter as you can imagine, in outfitting particularly without having the boundary waters open. We’ve definitely seen some slowdown in traffic there.

Stephanie Hansen (02:07.315)

And when you think about the bookstore, yeah. What

Jordyn Stocks (02:11.732)

Yeah, the bookstore and the store have maintained like we’ve still been busy. We’ve still seen traffic. you know, not as busy as it would normally be. Blueberry festival would have been this weekend, as you know. that didn’t happen. But yeah, overall it’s still been we’re hanging in there. It’s still been still been a good weekend, but yeah, quieter.

Stephanie Hansen (02:35.286)

It’s a good example of how smart it is for businesses to kind of silo to. Like, you know, you start with one thing that maybe is your core competency, but then to support the business through non-trip times, you know, you’ve got the clothing store and then you add the bookstore, which is kind of a year-round service business for the town in and of itself. It’s cool to have so many different facets. And I know you guys sell online too and have a pretty big online following.

Jordyn Stocks (02:43.473)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it it it does help that we have a few different things going on with the the clothing and the gifts and the gear and the books and the online presence. So that is that’s been nice to have all of that going on. And we’ve definitely seen an uptick in in online sales and phone sales. So we’re still shipping things out all over the country. We’re still selling things to, you know, fire crews that are here, local folks that are out and about.

People coming up for their cabins. Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen (03:37.612)

What is your history with Paragas and how did you get started and land in the bookstore component?

Jordyn Stocks (03:41.76)

well I’ve been here. This is my third no 14th summer here. So I started out just kind of part-time evening shifts in the retail store. And then the bookstore manager at the time, she was she was moving on to I think she was going back home to Chicago or somewhere. So I was excited about the prospect of working with the books and here I am.

Thirteen years later.

Stephanie Hansen (04:13.856)

And you are an Ely resident. Are there some features about Ely in particular or locations that you feel are like hidden gems?

Jordyn Stocks (04:23.909)

Yeah, so I was actually born and raised here. So I don’t know, growing up I kind of kind of probably took a lot of it for granted, but now you know seeing it with fresh eyes, I guess through people who were coming here for the first time and you know coming here repeatedly year after year. one of one of my favorite things is the the Ely Witten Historical Society. They have this cute little museum in the Vermillion Community College.

It’s it’s free, they just feel like goodwill donations, it’s self guided. But there’s a lot of really interesting historical things there. They have a lot of a lot of books that were written by local folks about history and like very specific history, like the Birdside River or Winton and the lumber industry. So that’s pretty fun local history. I love the sedan mine. It’s it’s open now for underground tours again, which I’m excited to do this summer. I haven’t gone

Years. Yeah, we just went.

Stephanie Hansen (05:19.384)

I’m trying to think.

I did go to the Sedan Underground mine tour. It’s super cool. I think I went, gosh, probably when I first started coming to Ely. So maybe, you know, like gosh, 20 years ago, but it was so cool to be taken underground and through the mine system. And you went with a original miner. So they would talk about like what their day was like. That seems like a unique

aspect of being in northeast Minnesota because mining was such a pillar of what was happening here at the time. And just like being underground and the constant temperature, that was one of the highlights of one of the things I’ve done in town.

Jordyn Stocks (06:04.049)

Yeah, yeah, it’s a it’s a very cool experience. I’d highly recommend doing that. but yeah, other than that, we’ve got a lot of great hiking trails, places to canoe and paddle and swim and do all those things. Berry picking. there’s always something to do. We’ve got a great yeah, we’ve got a great you know, local art scene with the theater and art shows, we’ve got the movie theater.

It’s just a lot of fun stuff to do, always always something.

Stephanie Hansen (06:38.12)

Absolutely. And I know you guys for such a smallish town, your bookstore has like a big footprint. You guys have sold a ton of the True North Cabin cookbooks for me, so thank you. Also, the Moon Tav the Moon Tavern.

Jordyn Stocks (06:49.271)

Yeah. Yeah, of course. Thanks for coming and Yeah. Yeah, the the new one’s been popular.

Stephanie Hansen (06:58.964)

And also Kurt’s book, The Barrens, the Canoe Book has still done well too. So I wanna thank you for that. And I know you guys have a lot of artists that come through and authors that come through. When you’re stocking the bookstore, like who would you say is your ideal customer that you’re stocking for? Because you have like such a great romance section, a good kid section.

Jordyn Stocks (07:21.126)

Gosh, that that’s a tough one. and it changes, I feel. a lot of people are just are looking for a book to take out on trip with them. Something something that’s gonna like be engaging right away, something that’s engrossing. they don’t want a lot of heavy reading necessarily. But we’ve also got people who want, you know, the latest best sellers, the things they’re seeing on on book talk or the

You know, Reese’s book picks or all those things. but also a lot of people looking for local history, things about the area, just something to kind of you know put them in the mindset of being here in the woods. Yeah. A lot of lot of different customers, a lot of variety.

Stephanie Hansen (08:07.916)

I imagine maybe that changes as you get into the winter months too and it’s more of the regular town folk versus the though you have a big visitors that come in the winter too, ‘cause we come and go snowmobiling, we cross country ski.

Jordyn Stocks (08:19.792)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, there’s definitely people coming all year round. It’s it’s of course, you know, a little a little more mellow in the winter, not as much foot traffic. But yeah, definitely a lot of locals will they’ll special order things, you know, they heard about on the radio or they read about in the paper, or you know, they’ve got

their favorite Minnesota authors having a new book come out and they want to pre-order that. So yeah.

Stephanie Hansen (08:49.877)

Yes. I love that. if you could pick three books that you think are kind of buzzy right now that you see that people are excited about, we’ll we’ll throw them out there because I think I’m always looking for new reads.

Jordyn Stocks (09:05.333)

Yeah, so people right now are looking for Theo of Golden. I’m blanking on the author’s name, but they’re also looking for the correspondent and Calamity Club. And then the newest William Kent Krueger book, which won’t be out till

August, but you know, they’re always looking for his latest.

Stephanie Hansen (09:29.815)

I think I’m the only one in the world that didn’t love that Theo of Golden Book, but you know, everybody’s got their own vibes.

Jordyn Stocks (09:34.01)

I haven’t read it, but I’ve definitely that seems like a book that people are either loving or they’re hating. There’s no in-between on that, as far as I’m hearing.

Stephanie Hansen (09:51.192)

I feel like that’s also what is the name of the book? And I bought it at your store about the social media influencer who gets dropped into the eighteen hundreds.

Jordyn Stocks (10:00.429)

Yesteryear. That one’s been really popular too. Yeah, that’s another love it or hate it one. Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen (10:02.347)

Yes. Another book that I yes, like I totally hate read that book and read the whole thing and hated it, but kept going. It it was, you know how sometimes you don’t love a book, but it’s compelling enough to keep reading and sort of see what happens at the end.

it’s fascinating, I think, that that book got so much traction. But I don’t know, like I I love the diversity of what you guys offer there. You have a ton of local too, like Abby Yaminez. I know you have a large section for her romance books. And romance is a big seller.

Jordyn Stocks (10:36.246)

We do. Yep. It is. We never used to carry much of it or like have much of a demand for it, but it’s been like flying off the shelves lately. I I don’t I don’t know what it is, but and and that’s not a genre that I typically read. So I I’ve been relying a lot on like s like coworker and customer recommendations, which has been fun. .

Stephanie Hansen (11:09.793)

It for your personal life, like you probably have to read a lot of books. Like how many books do you think you read in a month?

Jordyn Stocks (11:17.462)

And I I don’t know. I also listen to a lot of books, but I don’t know how many I read in a month. Probably like half a dozen, maybe. I don’t I don’t really know. I do

Stephanie Hansen (11:31.064)

That’s a lot. I listen to people talk about, you know, is listening to a book the same as reading or does it count? It’s like who’s keeping score number one? And yes, it counts. when you can think of a book that is narrated by someone that really makes it come alive, like I just listened to Whistler by Ann Patchett, which I don’t know if I would have liked that book as much if she hadn’t read it.

Jordyn Stocks (11:58.966)

Yeah, I totally get that. I I listen to more nonfiction, more memoirs and things, and I especially love when the author reads it. Like David Sederis will read his own, like Nick Offerman reads his own. They’re both really great to listen to. And it’s just I don’t know, it it I think it brings a lot more to it in that circumstance. So but yeah.

before we break here, I do want to mention that you guys have the catalog. And in the catalog are you have a lot of books in the catalog, a lot of the cookbooks, the seasonal books, there’s also gear.

Jordyn Stocks (13:16.393)

We do. We do, yeah, and we have the website as well that’s fully shoppable, the Boundary Waters catalog website. there’s I mean certainly more than what was in the catalog, but not not as much as in the store. But there is quite a variety there and I’m I’m always happy to special order things too if someone’s looking for something that they’re not seeing in the store or

on the website that’s happy to look for things. Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen (13:43.949)

That’s good to know. That’s good to know because I know there’s been a lot of interest in supporting Ely in particular. I’m going to link there’s a fund that’s been established that the United Way of Northeastern Minnesota is putting together and there’s three pillars that you can donate to. One is nonprofits, one is Ely specific small business, which I appreciate. And also there is an opportunity to donate to the Wildfire Fund. So

I will put that in the show notes. Anything you want people to know specifically about Ely before we break?

Jordyn Stocks (14:15.351)

Great.

gosh. it’s just it’s just such a great place to to live and to visit. There’s you know great people here. Just the way you know you’ve mentioned people have been showing up for one another and supporting people during this just weird, uncertain wildfire time. It’s it’s been really cool. It’s just a great place to be. Lots, yeah.

Stephanie Hansen (14:42.423)

I think so too. We’re lucky. And we’re lucky to have you, Jordan, be such a good supporter of books and reading. And I appreciate everything Piragis has done for our books. And I’m looking forward to seeing you soon. I always pop in to sign books and I’ll see you, I’m sure, in the next week.

Jordyn Stocks (14:59.62)

Yeah, sorry I missed you yesterday. Hopefully we’ll see you soon. All right. Wonderful. You too. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Bye.

Stephanie Hansen (15:02.34)

Yeah. you will, you will. It’s good to see you again, Jordan, and thanks for being a guest. Okay, bye-bye. Mm-hmm.

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Visit Ely, Minnesota for fun things to do year-round! Whether you are looking for a place to stay, a delicious meal, a hiking trail, or an immersion experience, we have businesses ready to meet your needs.

Stephanie Hansen (00:00:00)

Hello, everybody, and welcome to Dishing with Stephanie’s Dish, the podcast where we talk to people in the food space typically, but also in the wellness spaces and all the beautiful spaces. I’m here today with Kate Kalan and she is with Etoile du Nord, which is a new spa that is located in Ely, Minnesota. And many of you know Ely is my second home. it is the home of the True North Cabin Cookbook where I wrote the books. And also I have a cabin here.

And it’s been kind of a summer. So I typically go back and forth between the twin cities and here. And Kate, you and I have never met, but I’m really excited about your new spa. You guys opened, was it last summer?

Kate (00:00:43)

Last spring, yeah, Earth Day we opened. So we’re on summer number two now. ⁓

Stephanie Hansen (00:00:46)

So so Kate, tell me about how you found yourself in Ely.

Kate (00:01:40)

So I was born and raised here. ⁓ I left to go to school, work in the cities for many, many years. ⁓ and then COVID happened ⁓ and I decided to come home. ⁓ So ⁓ I work remotely ⁓ up here ⁓ and I don’t know, I think it was about a year ⁓ working remotely that I ⁓

Don’t know Stephanie decided to do something different. ⁓ And ⁓ it was yeah, it was one summer my mom and I were were I was trying to get us a pedicure appointment and it was impossible. So ⁓ I was like, I I don’t know, let’s do this. I don’t know what sparked it. I think you know, my parents ran small businesses here when I grew up and

Stephanie Hansen (00:02:10)

Ha ha ha ⁓

Stephanie Hansen (00:02:32)

Yeah.

Kate (00:02:35)

I think I had just been talking to like a lot of entrepreneurs at the time. I don’t I don’t even know, but ⁓

Stephanie Hansen (00:02:40)

It it it makes sense though, because ⁓ what I noticed during COVID, we would come up in the winter and stay ⁓ we actually spent kind of a lot of time up here that winter ⁓ of the first year of COVID, just probably out of boredom more than anything else. ⁓ And we had free time. So, you know, the Northwoods was so gorgeous and so beautiful. I think that a lot of people came to this area.

Kate (00:02:48)

Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen (00:03:08)

In the COVID times, people came from other parts of the country. There were a lot of houses that were purchased. A lot of entrepreneurs came in. And for a town like Ely that has so much of its historical roots in mining, it was pretty neat to see all these entrepreneurs coming to town. So I when you opened your spa, I was like, hooray. And at that time too, another spa, the pebble spa, that was here closed. So people really, I think, appreciated that. opportunity to ⁓ welcome you in. And it started just primarily as nails, but I’ve noticed you’re doing more things now.

Kate (00:03:45)

Yeah. ⁓ we do manicures, pedicures. ⁓ this summer we brought on an esthetician. So she’s doing facials and like light chemical peels. ⁓ and then just recently this month we welcomed ⁓ massage therapists. So Jessie Brooks massage is working out of our our cozy little space. ⁓ so yeah, people are people are excited and so that makes me excited.

Stephanie Hansen (00:04:12)

So in the summer the population here swells, ⁓ up to like six thousand people. So it grows by like six to sevenfold really. ⁓ is ⁓ like if you and you’ve only been doing this this is your second year, I would imagine summer is a big part of the business or not.

Kate (00:04:25)

yeah. ⁓ we made it through ⁓ the winter, ⁓ but summer’s a completely different animal. I mean, the girls are are pretty booked and it’s wonderful. You know, we have so many seasonal people, just even from last summer who are excited to come back, which is ⁓ awesome to see. ⁓ you know, and then just the regular tourists and visitors, obviously this summer’s a little bit different. ⁓ but happy to say we’re we’re pretty steady, which has been awesome.

Stephanie Hansen (00:04:59)

It’s pretty interesting. I mean, I feel like the city of Ely and the folks in Ely have done a lot to spur winter tourism. I mean, snowmobiling is a big thing. We’ve got great cross-country ski trails. I mean, there’s things like Beard Fest ⁓ and they have the movie festival now. There’s also a winter festival, ⁓ ice sculptures, snow sculptures. ⁓ What do you think it would take in your opinion to get more people interested in Ely in the winter?

Kate (00:05:31)

I mean, I keep saying they should film a Hallmark movie up here. Like ⁓ it’s so, you know, it’s so cozy in the winter and it’s such ⁓ a special place to spend Christmas. ⁓ I just I always say this town has Hallmark vibes and so I really think they should come up here. But ⁓ you know, like you said, there’s stuff going on throughout the year. Fall is a beautiful time to visit. We’ll have the harvest moon hopefully this year, which will hopefully be bigger than ever. ⁓ they’ll have the art walk during that time. Like you said, we have the winter festival, the film festival. We have a new dark sky festival. I mean, they’re, you know, we’re really trying to get people up here year round. ⁓ obviously it’s beautiful right now and and wonderful. So I hope people still ⁓ you know, with respect to the firefighters and everything. ⁓ Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen (00:06:20)

Yeah, let’s talk about that for a second because this will air in the next couple of weeks. And ⁓ on July, what was it, 7th, I believe, ⁓ there was a reignition of an older fire that had started through lightning called the campfire. But also concurrently, there were 14 other fires that were going in the Boundary Waters Canoe area has been really impacted. The small business in particular, they closed the boundary waters for it looks like it’ll be a minimum of two weeks and probably a little bit longer. They are starting to open for single day permits near kind of the Tofty Lutzen area, which is ⁓ pretty far from us, about 90 minutes. ⁓ when it it’s so hard to balance because I know you live here. I have a home here we have people that are friends we have that are evacuated and then are waiting to get back to their cabin spaces. And yet it’s like you’re living in this weird universe because I look outside. It’s a gorgeous, beautiful day. It feels fine. This is supposed to be the start of the blueberry festival. But I also as I promoted art festivals myself for 25 years. And I know, you know, to bring 40,000 people to town during this whole crisis when you’ve got 850 fire people on the line trying to protect the town could be seen as irresponsible. It’s a very mixed soup of feelings. What are your feelings as we’re going into week two of this? ⁓ basically evacuation all around the town of Ely.

Kate (00:07:58)

Yeah, it’s hard. Like you said, I mean, there were a few days where it has never felt like that here with the smoke and ⁓ it it was eerie. ⁓ but it it’s beautiful now. The sky is clear. That’s not to say we don’t still have wildfires happening up there. Like you said, there’s like 800 firefighters in town. We have to respect their space, ⁓ we have to respect, you know, the officials’ orders.

⁓ we have to make sure they have lodging and all of that. And it’s it’s a shame that Blueberry had to be canceled. But, you know, like you said, bringing thirty, forty thousand people into town on top of that. ⁓ just I understand why that decision was made. ⁓ I just hope we can make up for it, you know, like like you can visit Ely now. ⁓ I mean, the town the town is welcoming you very much so. ⁓And and I hope like I said in the fall and just when things calm down a little bit, ⁓ people will kind of make more of an effort and and think to to come up here and enjoy the leaves and ⁓ and plan some fall activities up here.

Stephanie Hansen (00:09:13)

We’re getting good vibes, I think, from the city folks and the people in the surrounding areas. A lot of people wanna know what they can do to help. Is there something specific to you and your business that people could do to help?

Kate (00:09:26)

Come visit us, come make appointments. ⁓ yeah, our nail girls are are booking out and we’re trying to fill up our esthetician schedule. ⁓ but yeah, we’re lucky to have a lot of local clients ⁓ who are very loyal and and just summer visitors who haven’t had to evacuate, thankfully. ⁓ but there’s a lot of stuff going on in town. The Ely Community Response has a growing list of ways to help. I just saw right before we hopped on actually, ⁓ there’s like a fund that that people are working on United Way, I think. ⁓ Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen (00:10:03)

Yeah, the United Way of the Northeast has established a fund that is accepting donations. I’ll put a link to it in the show notes. There’s three kind of pillars, and you can ⁓ sp specify your donation to go to one of the pillars, one being the small businesses in Ely, one being ⁓ nonprofits, and then the other one to wildfire fighting in the area. So that’s pretty cool that they’ve established a line directly to small businesses.

I know a lot of people are ⁓ encouraging gift cards. Do you have gift cards that people can purchase too?

Kate (00:10:34)

Yep. Yep. Yep. Online a lot of businesses do.

Stephanie Hansen (00:10:38)

Can you tell me three businesses ⁓ in Ely that you feel like you’d like people to know about?

Kate (00:10:47)

man, Stephanie, that’s hard. ⁓ shoot. ⁓ let’s see. I I love Insula. I I that’s yeah, I figured you would. ⁓ I love Burnside Lodge. I think you would probably love that too. ⁓ I yes.

Stephanie Hansen (00:10:48)

⁓ I know it’s like saying here, pick three of your friends.

Stephanie Hansen (00:10:57)

I do too.

Stephanie Hansen (00:11:05)

I do. Burntside Lodge is a historic lodge and you can eat there for dinner. They have a walk in bar area, gifts, and you can lodge there. It’s historic lodges, they’re very beautiful. Insula is a restaurant right in town.

Kate (00:11:20)

Yeah. ⁓ I have a friend who owns Five Pines Candle Company. She just moved into the new carbonation Ely space, which was the old pebble space. ⁓ I love this. ⁓ They are they have like arcade games, they have a co-working space, they are eventually gonna have, I think, like dirty sodas, which are all the rage. ⁓

Stephanie Hansen (00:11:32)

What is carbonation ely?

Kate (00:11:45)

The state theater I love. That’s newly renovated. We have current movies playing, you know. I mean, just take a walk down Sheridan and Chapman Street. Like we’re open and and everyone would be very thrilled ⁓ to see you. ⁓ So ⁓

Stephanie Hansen (00:12:00)

Yeah.

Well, I’m looking forward to see you. If I showed you my ⁓ toenails or my nails right now, you’d be horrified. ⁓

Kate (00:12:10)

No. Me too. I tell my girls like I am a horrible spokesperson because I’m I talk like this. ⁓

Stephanie Hansen (00:12:17)

Yeah, ⁓ same. Like, please do not look. And I have a TV show that I do and I’m holding food all the time. So I really have to have my nails done. So like in this two week reprieve where I haven’t had to do it, it’s like, ⁓ it’s so great. But they just look terrible. So ⁓ I appreciate you. And I also appreciate massage. ⁓ I am someone that really believes in the power of massage. I get massage every week when I’m home.

And I just feel for like lymphatic purposes and just overall stress and well being it’s really important. ⁓ And so I’m looking forward to visit with Jesse at some point.

Kate (00:12:55)

Yes, yes. And same with facials. I just, ⁓ you know, and I don’t we try and take a really just kind of like holistic self-care approach. Like all of our products are non toxic, cruelty free, nearly everything is vegan. ⁓

Our space is just like cozy and welcoming. Like we just want people to take a little bit of time for themselves. Obviously, there’s crazy, crazy things going on in the world. And it’s just like you said, that is ⁓ really important ⁓ just to kind of level set and and take an hour for yourself or whatever it may be. So yeah. ⁓

Stephanie Hansen (00:13:33)

Yeah, I love it. Well, I am a huge fan of what you’re doing. I’m a huge fan of Ely and all the new small businesses that have opened up in the last five years since COVID. Can you believe it? ⁓ and there’s just so many there’s so many great things about Ely. I’m a I’m a big supporter and I’m hopeful that I in some ways I wonder if kind of looking at the positive side of things, that all of this wildfire activity will sign will bring a shine a light.on the community and how amazing it’s been, how supportive of the firefighters, how the Ely community’s response really mobilized. There what impressed me about them so much is everybody talks about like, let me know what I can do or how can we help. And they just like got a Google spreadsheet, got a substack going, got a Facebook page, like people just started matching literal needs with people that needed them. So if someone needed a place to stay, they found it. If someone needed a mattress for the back of a truck, because that’s where they were going to be, they found it. They really talked about how you can build an inexpensive air filter for your home. It it was so just impressive how fast and how real the response and help was.

Kate (00:14:50)

Yeah, and social media, man, our WhatsApp Ely Facebook group is like ⁓ it’s a godsend in in some ways, you know. ⁓ but yeah, so there’s there’s a lot available for people to do in town right now. And and I think that’s important for for everyone to know. Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen (00:15:10)

Yeah, come visit Ely. There’s whether you come spring, summer, winter, or fall, outside of there’s beautiful lakes, ⁓ lots of lodging. ⁓ there’s pickleball, there’s gonna be a new brewery in town, there’s entertainment in the park, ⁓ there is the big festivals, there’s just so much happening all the time. So thanks for talking to me, Kate. I will come in and see you soon next time I swing through town. Okay.

Kate (00:14:50)

Thank you, it was great to finally meet you. Okay. Okay. Bye.

Stephanie Hansen (00:15:39)

Yes, you too, and we’ll talk soon. Okay. Bye bye.

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My guest is Kurt Johnson Co-author of The Moon Tavern, A Culinary Love Story With Recipes. The Moon Tavern takes the reader on a romantic and culinary journey through the Islands of Croatia, where dark family secrets are revealed, quirky friends and relatives are found, and love is discovered.Vesna, or Ves, is a cookbook writer from Minneapolis who travels to the remote, exotic island of Lastovo off Croatia's Mediterranean coast to reconnect with her biological grandmother. She'd been adopted as a young child after her parents died in the Yugoslav Wars of the 1990s. Ves is also fleeing a frayed relationship with her live-in partner, Reed.In Lastovo, she meets Dinko, a single, handsome, and wealthy vineyard owner, and his cute daughter Mia. With his help with the translation, Ves discovers her biological family's history and the dark secrets of what happened during the war. Romance, travel, and cooking ensue. She ultimately learns what matters most to her: simplicity in life, closeness with family, and someone to share love with. And, of course, food!

Stephanie [00:00:00]:

Hello, everybody, and welcome to Dishing with Stephanie’s Dish, the podcast where we talk to people in the food space and other spaces. All the spaces of all the fun things. Kurt is my spouse, Kurt Johnson, and also the co author of the Moon Tavern, a culinary romance with recipes. It is a fiction book that is available on your bookshelf now. Welcome to the podcast, Kurt.

Kurt Johnson [00:00:22]:

Hi, thanks for having me.

Stephanie [00:00:24]:

Thanks for having us. The idea that we should work on a book together. I am, as many of you listening know, a cookbook writer and my husband is a fiction writer. And somewhere along the way, we decided that maybe it would be good to collaborate together. Kurt, was it you or me that had the idea first? I think it was you.

Kurt Johnson [00:00:42]:

Yeah, probably. I was kind of done with my past book writing about Las Vegas and looking for something different. And we’d been traveling a lot, so going to Croatia, going to Italy, going out west, going to Turkey. So I wanted to incorporate travel with a novel, and I also wanted to incorporate food. And so I thought this would be a lot of fun. Since we’re traveling together, we have those shared experiences and you have the food experience and the food writing experience. So I thought it’d be a fun collaboration. And I’ve always liked the idea of love stories.

Kurt Johnson [00:01:18]:

Even my thriller books in Las Vegas had kind of a love story element. And it adds a dimension to a novel that, I don’t know, makes it cohesive, makes it pull together in an emotional arc that’s kind of fulfilling in the end.

Stephanie [00:01:33]:

Do you think you’re a romantic at heart, or what is it about romances that are fun to write for you?

Kurt Johnson [00:01:39]:

Maybe I’m a romance at heart. I may be more stoic than that, though. I just. I like the idea of seeing people get together, seeing people enjoy the same interests and finding people that can fall in love. Of course, that’s always the fun part. The hard part is once you get married and move on from there and have to deal with kids and daily life and work and all the other things that go with living life. And that’s not that much fun to write.

Stephanie [00:02:07]:

Yeah, exactly. We as a couple, I think I can speak for me and you maybe on this one. We’ve always had great experiences traveling. We are good traveling companions. We like the spirit of adventure. Did you know that Croatia would be the spot for the first fiction endeavor?

Kurt Johnson [00:02:24]:

Yeah, that was a given since we’d been there five times and four times running a sailboat and visiting the islands. And as you know, Stephanie, I’m just enamored with those islands, I think they’re so beautiful. And there was one island we discovered out there, Lastovo, which is the furthest island out. So a lot of the sailors and tourists just never get there. They stay closer to shore. So, you know, going out there the first time, this beautiful bay of Zachlopedia, where, you know, it’s a, it’s a protective cove which is beautiful turquoise water. And then taking the dinghy in, and then you walk up this path, I think it’s about a two mile hike. And then you go over this ridge and this 16th, 15th century town opens up.

Kurt Johnson [00:03:10]:

You know, at one point maybe it had 10,000 residents. And, and it, it, when we first saw it, I don’t know, 10, 15 years ago, it was abandoned. So it was a ghost town of 15th century buildings and churches and apartments in this beautiful valley of lush green foliage. So that’s very picturesque. We had an incredible meal there of just simple anchovies and blitfa. And for you, for you people out there that don’t know, blitfa is ubiquitous in Croatia. And it’s, it’s just spring potatoes with Swiss chard, but it’s served with everything.

Stephanie [00:03:52]:

It is served with everything. And they sometimes have spinach, sometimes have like another type of green, but it’s sort of like the potatoes are cooked till they’re pretty soft, and then it’s kind of mashed in a little bit. So it’s not fully a mashed potato and it’s not fully a roasted potato. It’s sort of a combination of both. But it is good.

Kurt Johnson [00:04:12]:

Yeah, so, yeah, that’s so, you know, it seemed such an exotic place, the island of Lastovo in Croatia, that it was a natural to place it there.

Stephanie [00:04:23]:

Can you tell a little bit of just an introduction of the story, like what people will find when they crack open the book?

Kurt Johnson [00:04:30]:

Sure. It’s about Vesna, who is. Has a breakup with her live in boyfriend, and they’d had a restaurant. She was a chef, a cookbook authority, and had a restaurant, not unlike my dear wife Stephanie. And she has a breakup and she leaves Minneapolis to go to Croatia to uncover her. Her heritage. She had been adopted from Croatia, specifically Dubrovnik, when her parents died in the Serb bombing of Dubrovnik in 1991. So she was adopted out of there and raised in Minnesota.

Kurt Johnson [00:05:05]:

So then she goes to Croatia and rediscovers her dark family secrets and meets Dinko Radek, who is a winery owner, and, you know, romance ensues. But she has a life still back in Minneapolis that she has to go back to and resolve.

Stephanie [00:05:24]:

When we talked about putting this first concept together, you know, I see the world through food. Like, literally everything in sort of my life is framed by a meal, an experience, just the way that I see the world. It’s always around food, celebrations. And so did you know that that would work for this Croatia book? Because I didn’t. When you first brought it up, I was like, I can’t be a Croatian grandma here. And writing recipes about what at the time I perceived as, like, dumplings.

Kurt Johnson [00:05:53]:

Yeah, I wasn’t sure either, frankly. You know, so each chapter, there’s 25 chapters, and each chapter in it has a description of cooking. And it’s all Croatia cooking, Croatia recipes. You know, all food we at over the years where we were there. And then the idea of tagging on recipes was just kind of bringing it home. Like, here’s the Croatia experience. Now here’s how Stephanie would bring that back to the real world, which is here in the United States.

Stephanie [00:06:21]:

We have talked about doing a series of books. What is it about this genre that you think lends itself to other titles and other characters?

Kurt Johnson [00:06:29]:

Well, you know, it’s an adventure book on one level, and there’s always new places to visit. So the next book is based in Panza, Italy, where we’ve been a couple times. And it’s this beautiful island off the coast of Italy in the Mediterranean. And, you know, Italian food. You go to Italy and what you remember is the pizza in Naples or the. The pasta in Rome and. And the busteca up in the hills. So, you know, a way to experience a place is.

Kurt Johnson [00:07:04]:

Is through food. And I like writing about new settings. You know, it. It’s not as interesting writing about Minnesota,

Stephanie [00:07:11]:

but you’ve written a lot about Las Vegas. You’ve had how many books about Las Vegas? Three.

Kurt Johnson [00:07:16]:

Yeah, three. You know, two of the. Of kind of a thriller in. Two thrillers in a series, and then a book about RVing that ends up in. In Las Vegas. And Las Vegas is a interesting place, and I lived there for five years running nightclubs and restaurants. And so two of the books are Underbelly of Las Vegas, which I was a part of in the nightclub scene back in the late 80s. So that’s just flat out fun to write about.

Kurt Johnson [00:07:39]:

And Las Vegas is such a weirdo place that it’s fun to bring that to life.

Stephanie [00:07:45]:

It’s interesting to hear you talk about that. The way you choose your stories is about place, because the first book, the Barrens, that you wrote with our Daughter Ellie, inspired by her experiences as a canoe camper in the tundra. That’s also based in Place, too. Place is sort of what starts you on these journeys. It seems like, yeah, you know something,

Kurt Johnson [00:08:07]:

you threw me a curveball because I never really thought about it. But you’re exactly right.

Stephanie [00:08:12]:

All.

Kurt Johnson [00:08:12]:

All these books start off with a setting, with a place, and then, you know, the plots revolve around. Around that. And there’s just so many. So many different. There’s a finite number of, really, plots you can choose from. It’s kind of like a piano keyboard has all the. The notes that you want to make up a. A music piece the same way with plot structures.

Kurt Johnson [00:08:34]:

And so to take it to the next level, you really have to search out characters, and the characters are in a setting, so those two are inexplicably, Inextricably. Inextricably linked. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, the two go hand in hand. So character and place really can set a novel apart.

Stephanie [00:08:59]:

Can you think of other books that you’ve written or. Excuse me. No, not that you’ve written, that you’ve read. Where Place sort of started you off on this adventure?

Kurt Johnson [00:09:07]:

Yeah, probably. I really love Beautiful Ruins.

Stephanie [00:09:11]:

Jess Walters.

Kurt Johnson [00:09:13]:

Walters, yeah. And that starts off in Italy, kind of near Cinque de Terre. And it’s kind of the poor version of Cinque de Terre, where the tourists don’t go. And it was such a fascinating story. And then they bring that all back to Hollywood in America, and it just works so well. But what really captures your imagination is the description of this little seaside community. Before the whole plot takes over, I

Stephanie [00:09:41]:

kind of think about that book. The Embarrassment of Mangoes.

Kurt Johnson [00:09:44]:

Yeah.

Stephanie [00:09:44]:

When you and I first started sailing and going on these adventures, we read that book. It was about a couple that buys a boat and sails through the Caribbean, and she is discovering spices and fruits and vegetables and things that she’s never eaten before. And I just loved that book. It was really what got me into sailing and thinking about how to make that our life and whether or not, you know, we could buy a boat and do that. And that boat really had a huge setting of place. Can you think of, like. I don’t know. When I think of other books, there’s very few books that I think about character first.

Stephanie [00:10:19]:

I usually always think about the place. Maybe that’s just something.

Kurt Johnson [00:10:22]:

Or the plot, too. Yeah, they’re all just linked together. And you don’t think about. Well, you were saying you don’t think about character as much.

Stephanie [00:10:31]:

Not really.

Kurt Johnson [00:10:32]:

Yeah, it’s funny. I think, you know, the best books people say are character driven, but they’re inexplicable. What’s the word again?

Stephanie [00:10:41]:

Inextricably.

Kurt Johnson [00:10:43]:

Inextricably. Trouble with that. Linked. So, you know, you pick a place and you pick a plot and then you build these characters. The characters have to build around that plot and so they kind of naturally flow. And, and I, I think they, if they’re well written and honest, you shouldn’t think of them. You know, they’re interesting characters and you’ll say, you know, this is Rabbit and the Rabbit series. And you’ll know, but you won’t say, oh, that’s just a great character.

Kurt Johnson [00:11:10]:

I, I, I don’t know that I certainly, you know, I’m probably deep into it and I look at the craft a lot so I can see where somebody has really spent some time to develop an honest character or where, you know, the narrative voice comes through and, and a character comes to life through this first person narrative voice. So I see that a lot more

Stephanie [00:11:30]:

people have a real, like they can’t believe you can write a book. Like the idea of the literal act of sitting down and writing and how that works. People fantasize about writing it, but then very few people do. What was it that got you over the hump from thinking about writing it to actually sitting down and doing it?

Kurt Johnson [00:11:47]:

Well, selling our business and all of a sudden being able to free up time. Because for me, novel writing and I think was it Chrisham talked about, you know, writing at 5 in the morning before he goes to work at 7. I just couldn’t do that. You know, I just, I’m very focused on one thing and, and so I needed to free up my time from work in order to get going. And then it was, can you put together, you know, a thousand or fifteen hundred words every day so that it links up into a novel and have that, not only that, that discipline, but also have the creative juices to produce scenes almost every day because, you know, like a, a good novel is created from 50 scenes. So I went from, you know, writing a memoir that I probably won’t publish just to see if I can get, you know, a thousand words every day and put this together to then writing Las Vegas turnaround. And there I, I, I really just copied a lot of plot structures that I saw that I liked. And so it was easier for me to set up main characters, set up tertiary characters, subplots, because I had a blueprint from somebody else.

Kurt Johnson [00:12:56]:

And then, and then once, you know, you Keep writing. You get muscle memory for it and it becomes more, more natural and actually more fun because it becomes more organic. You’ll follow characters through a town and they’ll meet somebody and all of a sudden that person becomes a character in their universe and they say something and all of a sudden that takes off and you have to follow it. Now, you know, the woman’s gonna fall in love with a guy at the end. But getting there is the fun part. And now I can do that a lot more organically.

Stephanie [00:13:27]:

If you are talking to any aspiring novel writers, what kind of advice do you have for them to get started?

Kurt Johnson [00:13:34]:

Well, you know, you gotta lower your expectations just because publishing is so hard, you know.

Stephanie [00:13:39]:

Can you elaborate on that?

Kurt Johnson [00:13:41]:

Well, you know, there’s maybe two or three or 400 agents, most of them in New York City and they’re all trying to make a buck. And it’s hard to make a buck off a debut writer. It helps if you’re MFA and you’re writing in a genre because, you know, let’s say 70% of the books are read by women and 70% of those are romances. And then men, the other 30%, probably 80% of what they read are, you know, thrillers or mysteries. So if you can pick a genre, that always helps. But yeah, it, you have to be more thoughtful about it. And I think, I think so many first time writers, you know, once they get the discipline and put, put the, the words on a page, they write that first personal novel, you know, and I wrote my memoir and it’s, it’s really 90% of those, they, you know, people have the, they aspire for the great American novel and it’s too personal, it’s too close to home. They can’t break out from the reality of their lives to have fun with the plot and make things happen.

Kurt Johnson [00:14:45]:

So a lot of times these books, nothing happens. They’re deeply emotional books where nothing happens and they’re, they’re excruciatingly boring. So you gotta get past that phase and then you gotta look at it as a, as a craft. And, you know, a big chunk of it’s art, of course, whatever you wanna call that, you know, shedding light on the human experience. But a big chunk is craft. And I don’t think you can get to the craft for most people in that first book. So you gotta keep writing, you know, and realize that the first couple books may not get published. So, you know, the barons got published.

Kurt Johnson [00:15:21]:

That was one, two, that was my third, fourth book, you know, and the, and two, the, the first three, two of them were duds that will never be published.

Stephanie [00:15:31]:

Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, it’s good to chat with you about the book. We are in the marketing process of the book. I feel like books come in three waves. One is the idea that you’re thinking about it. The second, the actual writing of it. And then the third is actual the marketing of it.

Stephanie [00:15:48]:

What do you think’s the hardest part?

Kurt Johnson [00:15:49]:

Well, I mean, it’s. The hardest part’s finding an agent and finding a publisher. Then if you self publish, the hardest part is marketing. And at least it is for me because writing is so natural and fun for me. But I think for most people, you know, the writing’s a hard part. And, and you know, like the Minnesota writer o’, Brien, he hates writing, so he forces himself. Tim o’. Brien.

Kurt Johnson [00:16:12]:

So he forces himself to get those books out there. So probably that’s the hardest part for him.

Stephanie [00:16:17]:

We had, I had a cookbook, two cookbooks out and I had a publisher, but they didn’t publish this book because it was a fiction book. I think some people just assume like, oh, well, they’ve already had books out, but we self published this book. Why did we make that decision from your standpoint?

Kurt Johnson [00:16:33]:

Well, we couldn’t get an A list agent or a New York publisher. There’s just not, it comes off as almost a debut book and it’s hard for them to make any money. So if you can’t get an A lister, then you’re, you know, stuck with boutique publishing companies and others and, and they just don’t support the marketing of your book. And I’ve self published books in the past, so I know how to do it. I know how to put a professional product out there. And, and we can, you know, both of us are marketers and, and Stephanie has a large platform, so we can do a lot of our own marketing or, or outsource it, you know, but still we retain most of the profits. So when we do the marketing, we can reinvested or keep those profits.

Stephanie [00:17:17]:

Yeah, I, when you say profits, it sounds like there’s a lot there. I’d like to, I mean, I mean,

Kurt Johnson [00:17:22]:

maybe, maybe we broke it even at this point, but then now we’re looking at a marketing PR firm that’s going to set us back another $5,000. But you know, if, if these books succeed and somebody makes a lot of money, it’s the, it’s the third, you know, book that’s going to put them over the top. It’s not the first.

Stephanie [00:17:40]:

I have this idea too that we’re going to write these books and then sooner or later someone’s going to turn them into a T series because it’s going to be like the White Lotus where each season is a different location and a different cast of characters, but sort of the general premise is sort of the same.

Kurt Johnson [00:17:56]:

I hope so. You know, I hope an A list agent comes along and, and frees us from our servitude or whatever. And, but, and yeah, you know, there’s, there’s plenty of stories of self published authors that, that get deals or even boutique. Boutique authors that get deals. So you know, we can dream.

Stephanie [00:18:16]:

One thing that I’d like the listener to hear is what their part is in this because we’ve. I was leaving the coffee shop today. We’re in Ely. That is the vacation backgrounds. But.

Kurt Johnson [00:18:25]:

Right.

Stephanie [00:18:25]:

I was leaving the coffee shop today and a woman stopped me and said, Stephanie, I had the opportunity to read the Moon Tavern. It’s so good. I loved it so much. And she’s telling me about it and telling her friend. And I have that experience a lot where people have really, really enjoyed this book. And I just want the listener to know that leaving reviews on Goodreads or Amazon or Barnes and Noble or wherever you bought the book or if you can’ find a book, asking for it at your local bookseller. Cause they can always order it when you’re self published. The more buzz you can create about these books, the better chance that someone will hear about it, someone will buy it and eventually a publisher, if they hear about a book and they like it, then they may pick it up.

Stephanie [00:19:03]:

So I think if you like what you’re reading and you want to see more of this type of work in the world and books that you like, that’s something that you can do to help us out.

Kurt Johnson [00:19:13]:

Yes, a 5 on Amazon or top rating on any other Goodreads is good too. Yeah, it’s, it’s all, it’s all good. So yes, those, those help a lot. Just because the more reviews you can get and the more five star reviews you get, the more people will pick up the book, the more buzz you’ll get. So yeah, so it helps us immeasurably.

Stephanie [00:19:35]:

Another thing before we wrap up here, someone asked me about the Cover of the book. Do you want to talk about how you picked the artwork?

Kurt Johnson [00:19:41]:

Yeah, I was pretty much online Xee Reider, she’s in St. Paul and she’s a muralist mostly. And I really liked the look that she had. So I reached out to her, and she did the original artwork, and then each chapter ends with a recipe, and there’s a pen and ink drawing, and she did those. And I really think that adds another level to the book. And I love a beautiful cover.

Stephanie [00:20:10]:

Yeah, the cover is really nice. She did a great job. All right, well, that is it for this episode of the podcast. Just want to chat with you and give people a little background. Thanks for being a guest.

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Original Episode Transcript Follows

Stephanie Hansen:

Hello, everybody, and welcome to Dishing with Stephanie’s Dish, the podcast where we talk to people in the food space. And also today, we’re going to talk travel, because whenever I travel, food’s always a big part of it. I’m here with my friend Michael Kenny, and he owns the travel agency Defined Destinations. And Michael and I met and have gone on a number of trips. We’ve gone to Croatia together. We’re just about to embark on Turkey. We are also planning a new trip that we just launched, that is a trip to South Africa. And a lot of times the best way to get people excited about these trips is to talk about them.

And Michael does more than that. He scouts them out for me first. So, Michael, you went to this trip?

Michael Kenney:

I did. I’m your personal scout, but I love it. There’s not a. There’s not a better deal than being able to do that and then going on with you and Kurt and with everybody else. So we’ve had some fun adventures. But, yes, I recently got back with my family. We went scouted this South Africa trip out, or Southern Africa, I should say that we visit four different countries. And it was.

I’ve been on a safari before, but it was in. In Kenya, which was fabulous as well. But this is a whole different experience. So I brought my wife and my two kids, and we had one of the best experiences, from seeing Cape Town to Johannesburg and then all the wildlife, different lodges and on boats. So we do all these different sorts of transportation and see four different countries. And it was unbelievable. I came back really, really excited. I was excited in the beginning, but having gone on it and then really first experiencing it firsthand was phenomenal.

And. And I knew you and Kurt would love it. And of course, everyone that follows you as well. It was just. It’s really a trip of a lifetime.

Stephanie Hansen:

So we put the trip out there. It is a more expensive trip, and we had a limited number of seats we had that could join the trip. And, you know, I’ve never done a trip that is on the higher end like that in terms of expense. And you’re just. You have a lot of in flight situations within the country. You have a lot of different lodging situations. There’s a boat, like, in order to do all the things we wanted to do, there were a lot of moving parts.

Michael Kenney:

Yep.

Stephanie Hansen:

So we put the trip out there and it sold out, like, right away. Right. So then Michael was like, okay, do we want to try and do another one? And of course we do, because I want you guys to have as many of these experiences as we can put together. Because I think traveling this way is great. I love traveling in a group for destinations that maybe I’m not comfortable in fully by myself. So Michael has secured another trip, a second round that is the same itinerary, but they leave. I think it’s a day later.

Michael Kenney:

Yes. And let me just touch on that. You hit some good points in there. Yeah. One reason the trip, it’s, it’s. It’s definitely at the highest price point we’ve ever offered a trip. But I think if you’re going out there and you’re shopping in African safari, you see that as well. So the value is there with all the different.

Essentially all the meals are included where we’re at on, on this trip, the inner flights inside the countries as well. From a couple smaller bush planes to the larger flights that go from Cape Town to Johannesburg, Johannesburg up towards Victoria Falls, etc. Those are already included in all the transfers. And this is a different trip too, Stephanie, because it’s not like a typical motor coach group that you’re going with all these big lodges and motor coaches coming in. This trip is. Can only take 16 people. It’s not because we design it that way, it’s the ship only handles 16 people. So if you go on our website, you take a look at it, you’ll see this small intimate cruiser on this river slash lake, Lake Kariba, which is part of the Zambezi.

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Michael Kenney:

And in the game lodge that we stayed at too for four nights as well there, there’s only eight cabins for 16 people. So it’s a real intimate experience and it will only be for our group. Same thing for your departure on May 8 and the 1 that we still have, there’s only. We just sold one another cabin online just, just now. So there’s four cabins left May 9th through the 25th of 2027. Same thing is gonna be true for that. It’s only gonna be our group as well. So there’s no other groups going to be in, on, on the ship and then in the lodge too.

Michael Kenney:

So it’s a real small intimate experience and it’s just real, real lovely.

Stephanie Hansen:

Can you walk us through like some of the high points having done this trip?

Michael Kenney:

Yeah. Oh, what do you start? I think this is just. Sometimes you use the word potpourri too much, but it’s, it’s really a bit of different. You know, you think you go to Africa just for the safari itself, but we go in and we visit Cape Town and Cape Town blew me away. It was one of the most beautiful cities and I’m not necessarily a city person, but it was just beautiful sitting under Table Mountain. We’ll go up to Table Mountain, we’ll go visit the areas around it, we’ll go visit some vineyards. South African wine is to die for. We’ll visit that.

We have a wine tasting included. We get to see penguins on this penguin beach in South Africa, which I didn’t know there was penguins in, in South Africa. So we’re actually good to go see those. And you actually get up pretty close too, so that was a real highlight. Nelson Mandela’s home in the prison, we’re going to go visit that. So we have a cultural experience as well. But then we fly into Johannesburg. We’ll get to hear the history in Johannesburg for a night.

And then we fly further north and we go into the. Our game lodge. We spend for four days right on the Zambezi River. You’ll absolutely love this place. You’re. You’re really well taken care of. You eat really well and you see the wildlife all around you right from your lodge. You sit in your plunge pool and there could be hippos down below you.

It’s incredible. It’s just a real amazing experience. And then we fly to Lake Kariba, we get on the boat itself and we have four nights again. There’s just 16 of us total. And it’s. This is where it’s really different. You glide up into shore and there can be elephants, giraffes, lions feeding in the water itself. It’s.

This isn’t a zoo. This is incredible. You are right there with it. That a real slow experience. You’re really able to take it in. So I invite, you know, anybody that’s watching this to go online. Just take a look at our photos. It’s free to do that and we pride ourselves.

The majority of all the photos on it were taken while on the trip, especially with me and my family. So you’ll get to really see what it really was, was like. So say you’ve done a trip to Tanzania or Kenya and have done a safari. This is. This is different. You see four different countries. It’s a slower pace, smaller groups. It lovely.

So those are really the experiences that I enjoyed the most, were the penguins seeing around Cape Town. Of course, the different game drives all the different wildlife. Victoria Falls, which is one of the most stunning waterfalls you’ll ever see. It was. It was really enlightening and it was fabulous and everything’s taken care of for you. So to Be able to do something on this on your own. To do the same trip would be really difficult. Putting all the flights together, the meals, what are we going to do? We’ve taken care of all of that.

All you have to do essentially is register for the trip and then we can help you with getting international airfare when it does come available later in the summer for this May 9th through the 25th, 2027 trip. So it, it was just an amazing experience.

Stephanie Hansen:

So can you talk a little bit about the food? Because I have no idea what African food is going to be like.

Michael Kenney:

Yeah, I, I think this, it’s not like we’re out eating street food, you know, in some of the villages we’re not doing that. It’s all in a controlled environment from the salads to things like that because you want to drink bottled water. We never got sick while on the trip itself, but it’s, it’s real, it’s westernized, let’s say that. So a lot of meat and potatoes and fish and different things like that. So there won’t be anything a little bit, I think outside of your comfort zone. So I, we really, really. Well, like lots of beef, chicken, sometimes there’d be lamb, but you can have choices too. So they’re really great with diets with that.

But again, the food was really safe. Nothing too exotic. You have a chance. Maybe you want to try ostrich or something like that. You can do that. But it’s a real, it’s really high level too. Especially at the lodges and the boats itself. All sit down plated meals.

Really, really nice. But again it’s, it’s, it’s safer on the meat and potato side on that. But it’s, it’s really nice high end food which you’ll, I think I, I know you’ll enjoy.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah. And was there different fruit?

Michael Kenney:

Yeah, some of the fruits, I can’t remember. You’d be like, well, what is that? I don’t know. Honestly, I wish I had the list on there. Like, well, what is that? Well, let’s, let’s try it. If you’re in the markets and things like that. But they, they do, especially in the mornings they’ll bring some fruits on, on the plate and you’ll have, you’re like, well what? And you just try it. So yeah, I’m not really good to help you on that. I’m sorry.

No, but it’s there exotic fruits whenever

Stephanie Hansen:

we’re traveling because we went to Thailand together. We’ve been to Vietnam, Cambodia, whenever we’re Traveling in these countries, there’s always fruits that I’ve never, I don’t even know what they are like. I’m just always amazed by how many fruits there are in the world.

Michael Kenney:

Yeah, it’s crazy. Like I said, you go through and you’re like, what is that? Especially on our Vietnam, Cambodia trip here, it’s, that’s, that’s really exotic with the food. This is a little bit different, but yeah, we’re in the southern hemisphere, right down to the Cape of Good Hope, which you’ll actually see too. So you see different, different foods for sure, so they’ll point that out too. But it’s. The main course is definitely not exotic, but you’ll see some really neat, neat, different fruits, things like that.

Stephanie Hansen:

We talked about South African wines, so I’m glad we’re doing that because that was a blast. So this second itinerary leaves a day later. Will there ever be an opportunity where I will overlap and interact with the second? It’s kind of hard to tell at this point.

Michael Kenney:

Yeah, it, it really is. And we’ll know a little bit more later on because we’re in, in contact because we’ll have they. The ships. We have two different ships on it and it’s just a day apart, like you said. But we’re in the lodge for four days. Our lodges are different, they’re close by. But we’re working on trying to see maybe if we get a couple game drives together, maybe maybe a meal somewhere that we could see each other once or twice during, or maybe even three times with Cape Town too, that we could run into each other as well. So if you decide to book, because you won’t be on the second trip, the second departure, we’re hoping two or three times we’ll be able to, to, to run in each other.

But again, it’s not guaranteed. But we’re very hopeful because both of the ships are completely ours. So I’m sure we can, we can do a little overlapping in our two lodge stays. They’re relatively close, but they’re, they’re different from each other. So we might be able to pop in and visit each other maybe for a happy hour on one of our boats, because each lodge has got like its own beautiful pontoon to go out and go look at the wildlife and we might run into that too, but. Yeah, but other than that, and you’re not being on the second one, their tenders are the same, just different lodges. And they’re both very, very amazing, high quality lodges. And again, if you go Online, you can see both the different boats and the lodges too, which you’ll absolutely love.

Stephanie Hansen:

I love too, Michael, that you actually took these trips. When I travel with you, you’re very upfront about what, you know, what, you don’t know. We get in country guides if we need more expertise, and a lot of times you want that because you want a local person to share with you the local feel of the place and to give you information based on their perspective of living there or being familiar with the country.

Michael Kenney:

Yeah, I think that that’s, that’s, that’s really important. People want to not just get the information to make sure it’s correct, but just like what’s life like being you’re from Namibia or Zimbabwe or South Africa and we have these local guides. We have, you know, the folks with us in the lodge and when we’re doing the game drives a professional that will tell you, you know, what you’re seeing, how they, you know, migration or whatever they’re doing and what they consume, all of that. So you’ve got that, that credibility too. So we have that throughout, from our city guides to our, our on land folks as well. You’ll really get that expertise. So you’ll, you’ll come back feeling, you know, about the people itself, which there’s. We could have different podcast talking about that.

I loved it. And then, you know, the animals that you’re going to sing like, oh, I didn’t know. It’s, it’s a really educational but rewarding, relaxing trip as well, which you, you, I know you’ll, you’ll enjoy.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah, I’m looking forward to it. And people say that the African people are like just fabulous.

Michael Kenney:

They are it. And again, I’ve been to Africa a few times not, not to, to these parts. The people are wonderful. And I don’t know if you’re going to bring it up, but the languages. So revisiting different four countries and, and they, they speak different dialects of in. In the different countries and different languages as well, from English to African and wherever, you know, from where their group is from. But they use English as kind of the common language. So you’ll.

If we have a little overlap with some of our guides from Namibia to Botswana, they’re going to speak English with each other, which was. I was like, oh, wow. I didn’t, you know, really realize that. So the language is never a problem. Everything’s in English. Even in. Through all of the countries visited. You would see the road signs.

It’s all in English, which was like, oh, wow, that’s interesting. But then you get to hear them speaking with each other, their languages and they’ll talk about that too. But I was, I was really surprised about the whole language situation being it really a lot of English.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah, I’m excited about that. Okay, so when we say expensive, can you just say on the podcast how much the trip is? Because I don’t want people not to explore it.

Michael Kenney:

Oh yeah.

Stephanie Hansen:

You get so many things and a lot of people that are, you know, TV hosts and that sort of thing are hosting week long trips places and they cost more than this trip costs.

Michael Kenney:

So yeah, for the, for the land only per person It’s $12,000. And so you, other than that you just need to get your international airfare to and from South Africa. And we have that all written down if you want to look at and for it yourself. But like I mentioned earlier, rates don’t come out availability about 10 months prior to departure. So it’ll be sometime later this summer, maybe in July that you’ll start seeing what rates would be to fly into to Cape Town with that. But again the value is really there. It’s typically double the price that we usually have for our trips going to Europe and other places like that. But I think if you go through it and if you’ve done your research, if you’ve looked at trips to Africa before, you’ll see the value there with all the, all the flights, all the meals, all that included and it, like you said it, it’s sold out right away.

People I think understand that too. And we only have a few cabins left on the second departure so hopefully you’re able to join it. But take a look at the website again, it’s free to do that. Look at all the things that we offer, all the inclusions. I think everyone will see the value there for sure.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah, I was just noticing another person going somewhere for a week and it was like 15,000. And I was like, wait, we’re going to Africa, we’re doing all of this great stuff, all the meals are included, it’s over, it’s two week long trip and we’re going on all these game drives. Like this is more than maybe most people would spend on a vacation. But like for a trip of a lifetime it’s very, I thought really well priced. And I went and looked at Nat Geo. I looked at some of the other trips were actually cheaper than those too.

Michael Kenney:

Yeah. And I think a lot of people are just looking when you, you first look at it too, you want to make sure you’re comparing apples to Apple. So, you know, we encourage you to go out there and shop and look at other companies because I know you’ll come back and you’ll see our value. A lot of them are just maybe doing similar game drives that we’re doing, but they’re not including like Cape Town in it and we are, which is huge. Again, you might not be a city person, but you’re gonna love Cape Town. Not just the city itself, the drives around there, going to, to see the penguins and to go up into the area where the, the vineyards are, it’s abso stunning. So there’s a lot to it. So I encourage everybody to take a look and you’ll again see the value and all the different experiences you’ll have

Stephanie Hansen:

on this trip and the vibes. Because I’ll be there on the first trip, hopefully I’ll get to overlap with you on the second trip. I don’t want to make any promises we can’t keep, but I feel good that I’ll see you at least once and then we can like talk about all the stuff that we saw when we get back. So it’s going to be just great vibes.

Michael Kenney:

Exactly. And I already know the majority of the people that from previous trips that have already booked the second departure. So if you’re thinking about it, I’m looking at the name list. There’s some really good people on this, on this trip. So you’re going to have fun. You’ll have a great guides throughout. So it’s yes, they won’t have you incurred on the trip, which is sad, but I think at the same time you’re really going to love, if you’re going for this experience, you’re absolutely going to love it for sure. And we encourage.

Send an email to us. Give me a call. I’d be happy to talk to you about the trip itself. But again, having just a few cabins left, I know this one will sell out too. So if you’re on the fence again, give me a call, send me an email. I’d be happy to get you on it because this will be our Last one for 2027, so we’d love to have anybody else join.

Stephanie Hansen:

I’ll put all that information in the podcast release. Also, it pays to be traveler with us because we have a pretty good list now of people that are repeat travelers and I think that says a lot about you as someone coordinating these trips. I think it says a lot about me as someone that is fun to go on these trips with, like we have someone that’s coming up on, this will be their fourth trip with us. They’re, they’re high end experiences, they’re fun. We don’t take ourselves too seriously. We have a good time. The pacing is right. If you need to peel off because you need a day to just relax, you can usually do that at the different places.

It really, I, I feel like while we’re leading a trip, we also understand it’s your trip, not ours. So if you need to do, you know, like, I remember when we did a cooking class, Lori standing up on the bus and saying, well, who wants to do that? And everyone went except for her. And then Kurt went with her, so she wasn’t alone. But again, if the cooking class isn’t your jam, then you can find some way to do something else. So just to see a good time?

Michael Kenney:

No, it is if this is your vacation. But I honestly think everything that’s in this itinerary, you’re going to want to, to join in. And again, this is a relaxed pace too. But sometimes we have some earlier game drives to, to go see the animals that are out there early in the morning, which you want to do. But then we’ll usually have the afternoon free that you can go into your plunge pool, sit by one of the beautiful trees and have having a cocktail or something like that. So it’s really relaxed as well and you have time to take it in and I think that’s really important. Sometimes everything’s just go, go, go and see how much you can see and do. I mean, we are, we’re going, but we still have that time to sit back and relax.

And that’s what’s really fun about even being on the ship. Second, because we’re moving around and, and popping into small little bays and seeing when animals come up through these savannahs. It’s stunning. You’re like, you’re in the comfort of a beautiful boat and you’re going up and there’s, you know, elephants coming down to water, which I loved, or the hippos just down below you. We go fishing one time or a couple times, whatever we want to do. And just the wildlife around you. And it’s like, oh, I’m not in a Minnesota northern lake right now. It’s, it’s pretty spectacular.

Michael Kenney:

So, Kurt, no swimming off the boat, please. Unlike Kariba with, with knowing, uh, there’s a tiger fish in there. There’s these world famous fish that people like to fish for, the sharp teeth, but it’s more so you got to watch out for those hippos. Of course.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah. Are there crocodiles?

Michael Kenney:

Yes, there are. So, yes, there’s the crocodiles and the hippos in there. So don’t go in the water.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah.

Michael Kenney:

But it’s fun to be on our big boat, so it’s, it’s safe and you get up really up close to everything, which is super cool.

Stephanie Hansen:

All right, well, I’m looking forward to it, Michael. Again, I’ll put all the information in the podcast notes here. Thanks for joining us and I’ll see you. Well, I won’t see you tomorrow because I’m leaving for Turkey a few days early because I like to get there and get fresh before you guys all arrive so that I have a personality. But I’ll see you in a couple days in Turkey.

Michael Kenney:

That sounds great. Thanks so much, Stephanie.

Stephanie Hansen:

Okay, bye. Bye.

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Welcome to "Dishing with Stephanie's Dish," the show where we dive into the stories of people passionate about food, family traditions, and the recipes that connect us all. I'm your host, Stephanie Hansen, and today, I'm thrilled to sit down with cookbook author Sarah Peterson, whose new book, Dish and Tell: Recipes from the Heart, celebrates the beauty of vintage family recipes and the memories shared around the table.

Dish and Tell: Recipes from the Heart highlights celebrated dishes from Peterson’s recipe box—and collects stories from other passionate home cooks who opened their kitchens to share their own tried-and-true recipes. Peterson takes readers along as she visits, cooks, and bakes with friends old and new to present a smorgasbord of family favorites. She serves up stories about the people behind the dishes and offers special tips and tricks from the keepers of these recipes.

Whether you're an avid home cook, a lover of kitchen nostalgia, or just here for some culinary inspiration, get ready to hear heartfelt stories, tips on cookbook writing, and a delicious conversation that will leave you hungry for more!

Original Episode Transcript Follows:Stephanie Hansen [00:00:02]:

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Dishing with Stephanie’s Dish podcast, where we talk to people in the food space who are as obsessed about food as we are. And today we’re talking to the cookbook author Sarah Peterson. She is the author of Dish and Tell Recipes from the Heart. I’m going to hold up her book so that you guys can see it. It looks so cute. It’s pink. Sarah, I am really excited to talk to you because I don’t normally get to know people sort of along the whole journey of them writing a book and then seeing it released into the world. But that did happen with you and I.

Sarah Peterson [00:00:37]:

Yes, it did. We’ve known each other a little while, or at least I’ve known you. I’ve followed your career, and so it’s been really great to have you to consult with a little bit, and you’ve really been a mentor to me throughout this process.

Stephanie Hansen [00:00:50]:

Well, and I think for you, coming from the PR world, which was where your background was, and then taking it into a cookbook, I’m seeing so many, like, similarities of how you’re approaching things, and I think it’s just super smart, and I can’t wait to talk to you. So can you just give the viewer, the listener, a little bit of backstory about the book and why you wrote it and why it’s special to you?

Sarah Peterson [00:01:17]:

Yes.

Stephanie Hansen [00:01:18]:

So.

Sarah Peterson [00:01:18]:

So about five years ago, maybe more, I started thinking about what I wanted to do with my career. I’d been in PR a long time, telling other people’s stories, writing in the voice of other people. I wanted to do something of my own. I had this love of everything vintage. I’m very nostalgic. I love any opportunity to, like, go back to my grandma’s kitchens in my mind and, like, imagine them in their homes. And so this idea started brewing about, you know, what if I blogged about family recipes and shared some of these handwritten recipe cards, recipe boxes, my love of vintage. So I started with Instagram first, and I was posting a little bit, and then I.

Sarah Peterson [00:02:00]:

That kind of evolved into a blog, and that just really grew and grew, and it was just not my own family’s recipes, but other people’s families, too. Like, I started to just talk to my friends and my neighbors and ask them what are the recipes in their families that I’ve been handing down through the generations that are really close, you know, to their hearts, and started to share those stories on the blog and then thought, well, this could be a book. A book is daunting as you know, to write, but I had some encouragement from my dad and some other people and just pitched it to the Historical Society, and I’m just so grateful that they decided to publish it.

Stephanie Hansen [00:02:37]:

And what we’re seeing in terms of trends for cookbooks is cookbooks that are AI proof, In other words, cookbooks that have a real narrative point of view on a story. And this book seems like it is exactly that and more. Did you feel uncomfortable or were you nervous about, like, being the keeper, the seed keeper, as it were, or the storykeeper of these stories and how you would translate them into an actual book?

Sarah Peterson [00:03:07]:

Yes. You mean for, like, other families? Yeah, absolutely. And I think what gave me maybe a little bit of confidence is that something that I had done in my career as a PR person and in one particular project for a client, I was tasked with shining the spotlight on small independent restaurants and the special role that they play in their communities. And so I had this chance to really interview them and tell their stories and talk about how they were making a difference in their communities. And so I was thinking about what I wanted to do with recipes and family stories, kind of drawing on that past experience of the storytelling, the type of storytelling I had done for restaurants and, like, small restaurant owners. And I think that helped give me some confidence. I think just seeing the difference it makes in someone’s life, too, when they see a story printed about them. And I also love to shine the spotlight on, like, the underdogs.

Sarah Peterson [00:04:03]:

And I feel like home cooks don’t get a lot of time in the sun, you know, So I wanted to do that. But, yeah, I do think there’s a lot of responsibility you carry when you’re telling somebody else’s story. And it’s not something I take lightly. So when I approach a story, I really, you know, lean on my journalistic background. I have a degree in journalism, try to get all the facts straight, run things by people, do fact checking, that kind of thing, too.

Stephanie Hansen [00:04:33]:

So you assembled all these stories and put them into a book along with your own family stories. And how has the book been received? Because it’s really beautiful. It’s super charming. There’s lots of photos, recipe cards. It’s very stylized in a sweet way.

Sarah Peterson [00:04:51]:

Thank you. I think it’s been received really well. It’s fun to see. Like, I’ve done a couple of events where people come up and they’re just like, oh, this book is just so sweet. It reminds me of my grandma, and I can’t wait to go look through her recipe box. That’s like, the biggest compliment I can get. The Star Tribune editor, Nicole, she said she’s the editor of Taste. She said it was like opening the book is like getting a big hug.

Sarah Peterson [00:05:15]:

And I think that’s just so sweet, too. Like, I really wanted people to, of course, love the recipes and the stories, but I think, like, the imagery of vintage dishes, of recipe boxes, of grandmas and aprons, I mean, that’s just like, so me. And I love all that, and I’m happy that other people seem to really love that as well.

Stephanie Hansen [00:05:34]:

I know it’s hard to answer this question so soon after having the book come out, but this really does feel like it could continue on and be a series and continue to live on in your Instagram. Could even be like, audio, you know, version, or you could do television things with it because there’s so much historical narrative in there. Has that occurred to you at all?

Sarah Peterson [00:06:00]:

Not so much yet. I mean, I’m trying to figure that all out now. Like, what do I want to do next? And I think, like, I would love to do more storytelling, more sharing of recipes, maybe more on my sub stack and my Instagram. But yeah, I mean, it could, there could be future editions of the book. But that’s just so ambitious for me right now. Just kind of in the thick of it. Maybe I’ll have to tap you for some more knowledge later on. But I mean, I do have, like, in talking to these families that I interviewed for the book, other stories would come up that they’re, you know, other recipes.

Sarah Peterson [00:06:34]:

And certainly people that I’ve been meeting, doing events are telling me about their recipes. I had this woman come to see me at a book event at Kowalski’s last weekend, and she brought her family cookbook that she had made, you know, just something that she had pieced together but was sharing with her family. And so it was really sweet, and I love seeing that, too. And I think, you know, sharing some of the recipes that other people share with me at events, but also talking about how they’re recording their family recipes. Like, I think, if anything, I’d love to be an inspiration for other people or give people an inspiration to collect those recipes and show some of the formats that other families are using to share those with with their extended family.

Stephanie Hansen [00:07:15]:

As we talk about the nuts and bolts of making a cookbook, what was the hardest part for you in putting this book together?

Sarah Peterson [00:07:25]:

I think it was. It seemed so massive in the beginning, like, the organization of a cookbook. I’ve learned a lot in the process and, like, Have a rockin spreadsheet now. But that was very daunting in the beginning. Then I got into the thick of it, and I think toward the end, like, the editing. Oh, my gosh, that was really something because you don’t know exactly when it’s going to hit. Like, when are you going to have to look through this whole thing? Like, after. Even before it was in layout, like, just getting the manuscript and after the editor had done a first pass, and then you have to reread it all again, and you just have to, like, carve out a bunch of time and just get into it.

Sarah Peterson [00:08:07]:

And I thought that was really hard. It reminded me of being back in college when you’re cramming for a final.

Stephanie Hansen [00:08:11]:

Yeah.

Sarah Peterson [00:08:13]:

So I didn’t, like, love that. But, I mean, it’s just part of the process.

Stephanie Hansen [00:08:18]:

Yeah. Because the manuscript comes back and you don’t know when. And then all of a sudden, like, your entire life is put on hold for however long it takes you to get through it.

Sarah Peterson [00:08:25]:

And for me, it was like a summer weekend. Like, oh, okay. I guess I’m gonna just be doing this for the next two weekend. Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen [00:08:33]:

How did you feel about the photographing of the book? Because that can be a challenging part that stops people.

Sarah Peterson [00:08:40]:

I’m glad you asked about that because as you know, we have the same publisher. And it’s really like, they were so great. They’re like, sarah, just take photos like you’re, you know, doing on your Instagram. These will be great. We’ll make it work. Well, yes, but I just was, like, feeling I’m not a food stylist. You know, I do my thing and I take pictures in the moment when I’m making food, but I’m like, I don’t know if these are cookbook worthy. And I do everything on my iPhone.

Sarah Peterson [00:09:08]:

I’m not gonna get a fancy camera. So as I got further along the process, pretty late in the process, I’m like, I just need some help, because I want somebody to help me get a really pretty shot for the COVID Help me shoot some of the things. Like, meat is so hard to take a pretty picture.

Stephanie Hansen [00:09:24]:

Yeah, for sure.

Sarah Peterson [00:09:25]:

Meatball. Or, you know, like, just. Oh. I was just really struggling, and I listened to your podcast and I know that you interviewed Rachel White of Set the Table Photography, who happens to be a food stylist as well. And I’d been following her on Instagram and really liked her style. So I reached out to her after hearing her on your podcast, and we met, and I just told her what I was doing. I said, I don’t have a lot of money, but here’s a few shots that I’d like to get. And she also took some headshots of me.

Sarah Peterson [00:09:52]:

But she came to my house for a few days, and we just banged out as much as we could. Not even like three full days. Like, two and a half days. I just was, like, cooking up a storm. We did headshots and lifestyle shots one morning, and then just a bunch of recipes and then, like, a bunch. A brunch spread one day, too.

Stephanie Hansen [00:10:10]:

So what that translated to me when looking at the book was we’ll call them, like, some hero shots.

Sarah Peterson [00:10:16]:

Exactly.

Stephanie Hansen [00:10:18]:

That were. They were. It was funny because I couldn’t necessarily tell when I was looking at the book, but I could see, like, just from the perspective of the stylized nature of the background and the more complete shot. Like, let’s see if I can just find one that I can hold up.

Sarah Peterson [00:10:44]:

Yeah, A lot of the shots in, you know, the chapter intros.

Stephanie Hansen [00:10:49]:

Yeah, it’s like, that one maybe.

Sarah Peterson [00:10:52]:

Yes, yes.

Stephanie Hansen [00:10:53]:

And I thought maybe that one.

Sarah Peterson [00:10:56]:

I took that one, actually. But I think just having Rachel, like, in. In the end, too, I was like, well, people are gonna. Is this gonna be weird to have a mix of really good professional pictures than my pictures? And then it was really important for me to have pictures that the families submitted, so candids and snapshots. And I know feature a lot of those in your cookbook, too. And I think those are so important, and I think they all came together. I hope so. Yeah, I did that one, too.

Stephanie Hansen [00:11:28]:

Oh, see, look at.

Sarah Peterson [00:11:30]:

I can’t even tell if you look in the back. We credit which pages are definitely her pictures. But, you know, she did the COVID

Stephanie Hansen [00:11:37]:

shot, and that’s this one. Yeah. No, I. I knew you had worked with her, but when I looked through the book, I thought I could tell, but I couldn’t, so. Good for you.

Sarah Peterson [00:11:49]:

She helped me do the. The Dutch pancake.

Stephanie Hansen [00:11:52]:

Yep. Those are so hard to get because they deflate.

Sarah Peterson [00:11:58]:

I know. And the day that we did it, I just made the most gigantic one ever in my largest lodge skillet. And it worked. And, like, screaming in excitement that it came out so beautiful. And then it did deflate, but we made it look pretty with berries and powder. Powdered sugar. I did that one, too. That one.

Sarah Peterson [00:12:16]:

Handballs. But, like, she did these really pretty pictures of my recipe cards and recipe boxes, and she took pictures of me with my grandma’s dishes. So she got a lot of shots, too, that obviously I Couldn’t take because I was in them. Yeah, it was really nice. And I’ve been using her photos like crazy and all of my Instagram and marketing efforts, so I’m just so grateful that I had her. I wish I could have hired her for the whole thing. But I think, too, when you’re making a cookbook, I don’t know about you, but I like to eat what I make. And I’m, like, photographing it in the moment.

Stephanie Hansen [00:12:49]:

Yes.

Sarah Peterson [00:12:50]:

And I do like those kind of pictures too, so I’m really glad I have a mix.

Stephanie Hansen [00:12:54]:

I. I feel like, for me, if I’m not living that life or I’m not like, that is the life I live. So the intention is that it’s happening in real time. I’m. I felt like this. Making this thing today, when I made it, this is what it looked like. This is how I ate it. This is how it.

Stephanie Hansen [00:13:14]:

The dishes I served it in. To me, that’s what makes this food life fun. So when it becomes like a complete chore or a list or a job, that’s when I find I don’t like it as much.

Sarah Peterson [00:13:26]:

Right. And I do think that people resonate to real life pictures.

Stephanie Hansen [00:13:31]:

Yeah. We’re lucky in that way, because if we would have been doing this during the fussy Instagram, first coming alive and everything being blown out white, beautiful shots,

Sarah Peterson [00:13:42]:

I don’t know that we have to do that. And especially with AI now, you want things to look a little imperfect.

Stephanie Hansen [00:13:47]:

Tell me about how you scheduled your book tour and how you worked with your publishing company, because I feel like you’re approaching it very methodically from a publicist standpoint, and I think that’s helpful for cookbook writers.

Sarah Peterson [00:14:05]:

Well, I’m glad it appears so, because that is. That’s been like a big surprise, like, book tour. Okay. I. You know, I didn’t really know what to expect, and I’ve seen everything you’ve done, and you’ve done a phenomenal job. And I’m like, if I can do a fraction of what Stephanie does, that would be great. So really, right now, I’m in the thick of it. The book came out in February, but it was a little bit slow in getting events because I had a vacation and some other things planned.

Sarah Peterson [00:14:33]:

But then now, coming into April, I’ve got a lot more going on, and I’ve just been fielding requests that have come through the publisher or through my website, and I haven’t said no to a lot. Although, know, like, there’s things that come up, like speaking Opportunities. And I don’t know that I’m there yet to do that kind of thing. So I’m just doing a mix of like, traditional book signings. The independent bookstores I absolutely love. I had a really sweet event in New at a bookstore called Luca. It was like, seriously, the set of the Gilmore Girls. It was so cute.

Sarah Peterson [00:15:10]:

That bookstore is amazing. And they had addition tell event where we talked about this. Like, how fun would it be to have people bring a recipe from their recipe box and we do a little recipe card swap. So we did that. And then they also made some of the dishes from the cookbook and we had like a potluck style event. So that was really sweet. So I think, you know, some of these events that come up are people that request them. Yeah, I do put on my PR hat and I’m like, well, how can we make this extra special and make it more an experience? And so I’ve been bringing.

Sarah Peterson [00:15:42]:

I’ve been hauling my grandma’s china teacups to all these events filled with flowers. I gave you one places I use doilies made by my Aunt Jeannie. I bring pictures of the women in my family that I call the keepers that have been the keepers of our food traditions. So I sort of have this traveling roadshow.

Stephanie Hansen [00:16:02]:

A kid. Yeah.

Sarah Peterson [00:16:04]:

But in terms of the events that I’m doing, I’ve just. Whatever comes my way, I’m kind of doing. I am not like seeking out things. I will say, though I do love the independent bookstores are really fun. And then this week I have an event at Fickers up in Duluth, which is my home. You know, Duluth and Cloquet. So that will be really exciting to do something like that where they’re making the food and I just, you know, come in and speak and mingle with people. That will be.

Sarah Peterson [00:16:32]:

That will be nice.

Stephanie Hansen [00:16:34]:

We have an or we have a Taste Buds with Stephanie episode coming up with you. I know Michelle is editing it right now, and it is where we made sandwich loaf. And you have the recipe and the techniques for sandwich loaf in your book. Can you just talk a little bit about why sandwich loaf is important to you?

Sarah Peterson [00:16:57]:

I would love to talk about sandwich loaf.

Stephanie Hansen [00:17:00]:

It was the funnest thing I’ve done.

Sarah Peterson [00:17:03]:

Sandwich loaf is something that I just. I just love it so much. And for people who don’t know what it is, it’s basically a layered sandwich that comes in a loaf. It looks really pretty, like almost like a wedding cake. And then you slice it so it’s like layers. It’s Bread with layers of tuna salad, egg salad, chicken salad, pimento cheese, whatever you want to put on the inside. And then it’s all encased in cream cheese and decorated with. You can decorate it with, like, piped cream cheese that’s tinted so it truly does look like a pretty cake.

Sarah Peterson [00:17:35]:

Or. My friend Tony and I like to do it with vegetables and herbs and just make little flowers and whimsical butterflies. So my passion for sandwich loaf started when I was probably growing up. It just showed up at, like, wedding showers, baby showers, graduations. And I always loved it. I mean, I loved how it tasted, and it was just kind of enamored by how charming it is. And then my friend Tony had it at her wedding, and we just. We.

Sarah Peterson [00:18:01]:

We share a bond over sandwich loaf. And part of it. She has an aunt that works at the Super One Deli up in Cloquet and made these things. And that’s how we’d get them growing up. They’re always ordered from the deli. They didn’t make them. But Tony and I were like, we should. We should make one of these.

Sarah Peterson [00:18:17]:

You know, we can buy the. It’s called Pullman bread. It’s that long, rectangular bread. She’s like, we can just order that from the deli and make our own sandwich loaf. And wouldn’t this be fun? And I think we were probably influenced by Instagram seeing other kinds of decorated cakes.

Stephanie Hansen [00:18:33]:

Yeah.

Sarah Peterson [00:18:33]:

Pasture breads, where people are doing, like, fun, fun scenes. So we just started doing it a few years ago around Mother’s Day. We’ve done it at her house. We’ve done it at my house, my parents house. And we’d share it with ladies in our life that we know would appreciate it. And we got such a great response. People that know sandwich loaf love it, and they’re just so excited to get it. So we make, like, the big ones, then we’d cut them up and do little smaller ones, decorate them really cute and hand them out around town.

Stephanie Hansen [00:19:03]:

It was so fun to make that with you. I had seen sandwich loaf, but when Michelle, my producer, was like, hey, she wants to make a sandwich loaf. I was like, yeah, we can make whatever she wants to make. And then when I got there, I was like, oh, yeah, like, this is how we do it. And just making the pimento cheese and, you know, do you put tuna in? Because some people feel weird about fish. And then we had this. Do you have a salmon loaf? Like, do you have egg salad? Just such a blast making that. And I can’t wait for us to show people what that’s like on television.

Stephanie Hansen [00:19:40]:

This weekend it’ll air Saturday at 8.30am it will launch on Instagram or, excuse me, it will launch on YouTube on Thursday and then it lives into perpetuity. And I’m sure they’ll air it again. So it’s nicely timed for your book. Thank goodness.

Sarah Peterson [00:19:55]:

And it’s sandwich loaf season, I mean, in my world. So I’ll be up in Duluth around Mother’s Day and my friend Tony and I are planning to get together and make some. And it’s just such a pretty spring thing and I think it would be great if people started serving them again at showers.

Stephanie Hansen [00:20:08]:

Yes, yes.

Sarah Peterson [00:20:11]:

Beautiful food item. And it’s, it’s tasty. You can customize it how you want. You know, you can make more than one if somebody doesn’t like tuna or if you want to add some other salad. Yeah, I think it’s going to be great. And it would be a fun group activity, wouldn’t it, with your girlfriends?

Stephanie Hansen [00:20:27]:

Like. Yes.

Sarah Peterson [00:20:28]:

I love it because we just have fun decorating them together.

Stephanie Hansen [00:20:31]:

I also think it’s a good multi generational thing, like for Mother’s Day where, you know, you can have the kids, the grandkids, really, everyone can sort of get involved if they’re, you know, I guess they have to be 10 or older probably. Unless they’re. I mean, you see these little kids on Instagram making gourmet meals now. I don’t know how that works. That wasn’t.

Sarah Peterson [00:20:51]:

Well, you could make a peanut butter and jelly one. Like you could really modify the ingredients. I mean, that’s not the way that I grew up with it, but it’d be fun to see what people do with it.

Stephanie Hansen [00:21:00]:

Yeah. And you could think you could frost it with peanut butter. Like that’d be pretty easy to do, actually.

Sarah Peterson [00:21:04]:

Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen [00:21:05]:

Or just frosting in and of itself and then have like a, a sweet with jam and kind of. That would be really good too. Or like a cream cheese buttercream for sure.

Sarah Peterson [00:21:17]:

And I just think it’s so pretty when you cut into it too. Like it’s pretty on its own when it’s decorated in its loaf form. But when you slice into it, the picture of, you know, just how it looks when, when it’s on the plate I think is really pretty.

Stephanie Hansen [00:21:32]:

I’m just gonna see if I can find it here so I can show it.

Sarah Peterson [00:21:35]:

Yeah, here’s the. It looks kind of funny on the camera there.

Stephanie Hansen [00:21:39]:

Can you see it pull back a little bit? Yes, now I can. Yep. It looks great.

Sarah Peterson [00:21:45]:

That’s like in its full, complete form. And then here it is sliced. And I like it on vintage luncheon plates that, you know, the kind our grandmas and our moms used years ago. And they have the little indentation for the coffee mug.

Stephanie Hansen [00:22:01]:

We just had Easter yesterday and my mother in law is 94, I think, and came for Easter dinner. And over the years she keeps giving me, you know, dishes and things that she’s offloading, as it were, but I kept. I’ve kept stuff. And we used to have Easter all the time in Nebraska with her at her house there. So I made the Easter spread. I used her tablecloth, I used her silverware forks. I used these little paper mache bunnies that she used to put on the table that I still kept. And it was so sweet to see her come to the house yesterday and sit down and like recognize all this stuff that we had when Ellie was little and we would have Easter with her.

Stephanie Hansen [00:22:46]:

It was. I was so glad I kept it all. You know, it’s kind of a pain, but I’m so glad I did.

Sarah Peterson [00:22:51]:

Oh, and you’ll have that to enjoy for years. And what a great memory. I mean, and I bet Dolores was just tickled.

Stephanie Hansen [00:22:56]:

She was, she really, she. She really was. And the funny thing, I said, well, you know, that’s your tablecloth. And she said, well, where are the napkins? And I didn’t really remember that there were napkins because they were in a closet and probably in a box and I didn’t unearth them. So I was like, oh, I have the napkins. I just didn’t get them out. Like, you know, where are the napkins? All right, so we are going to feature you on the Taste Buds episode. It’s a Dec.

Stephanie Hansen [00:23:22]:

Decades episode where we had to think of recipes that were important to us like through the decades. So sandwich loaf was one. Then I did a Chicken Marbella, which I don’t know if you did any dinner parties in the 80s, but if you did, that was what everybody made into like probably the early 90s too.

Sarah Peterson [00:23:44]:

I can’t wait to try that. I have not had that dish.

Stephanie Hansen [00:23:47]:

It is the simplest thing to make and it has a power punch of flavor. I always double the sauce just because I like it. Really saucy, but it sounds gross. And my producer was like, oh, wait, we’re putting prunes in this. I was like, yeah, you just gotta trust me. It’s gonna be really great. And then by the time it’s all done, you have this really delicious Sauce and the cooked chicken and you can just throw it in one big pan or one big pot and then serve it right from the pot. So it’s an easy dinner party.

Sarah Peterson [00:24:19]:

Dinner party, yeah. That sounds really good.

Stephanie Hansen [00:24:22]:

Do you have any, like 80s or 90s dishes that you. Not actual dishes, but things to make that you’re like, oh, I. If I had to do a decades theme, what would you make?

Sarah Peterson [00:24:32]:

You know, let’s see. So the 80s, I wasn’t cooking too much, but I love.

Stephanie Hansen [00:24:37]:

Because you’re so much younger than me.

Sarah Peterson [00:24:38]:

I’m not so much younger, but I was in that time of life where it was like high school. School.

Stephanie Hansen [00:24:43]:

Yep.

Sarah Peterson [00:24:44]:

Not doing a lot of entertaining or anything. I can’t think of. I don’t know if this is. I mean, we love Dorito. The taco salad with Doritos. I don’t know if that’s 80s or 90s, but like.

Stephanie Hansen [00:24:56]:

No, it’s. I think it’s 90s. And we actually talked about taco salads when we were trying to think about, like, what would be we. I couldn’t think of anything of the 90s. And then my producer Michelle, like came up with a bunch of stuff. And taco salad was actually also mud pie.

Sarah Peterson [00:25:14]:

Yes.

Stephanie Hansen [00:25:15]:

So we ended up making a mud pie bar that was actually a recipe that my stepmom had. But, like, people were eating a lot of mud pie apparently in the 90s. And chocolate lava cakes.

Sarah Peterson [00:25:27]:

Oh my gosh. And chocolate lava cakes. Are they. They’re back. I mean, I see they are back. My daughter Lucy is a big fan, so anytime we’re out to eat, she’s got to get a chocolate lava cake.

Stephanie Hansen [00:25:36]:

Have you ever made one?

Sarah Peterson [00:25:38]:

No, have you?

Stephanie Hansen [00:25:39]:

I have attempted it like three different times and it never works. I always get a delicious brownie but like getting that molten lava piece in the middle have not succeeded yet. So I didn’t want to do that on camera because I was like, oh, I just don’t know.

Sarah Peterson [00:25:56]:

So, yeah, in 90s dishes. I was just thinking of one thing that my mom has made throughout my life and is in the cookbook are Italian shells. So the big pasta shells. Yes, we ate them a lot in the 90s. We probably ate them definitely after. But just the big pasta shells loaded with Italian sausage, some torn up bread, a, you know, an egg base in there and some pasta sauce and cheese and then smothered with more sauce and cheese. That was like at every big occasion in my life.

Stephanie Hansen [00:26:28]:

I love it. So delicious. Well, Sarah, congratulations on the book. I’m happy to be on this journey with you, and I’m real proud of you. I think the book is beautiful, and I’m glad you’re having so much success. And I can’t wait till people see us make sandwich loaf on taste buds this weekend.

Sarah Peterson [00:26:46]:

Well, thank you. And I just have to thank you for everything, Stephanie. It’s been so fun to watch your career and how you’ve evolved and. And done all these amazing things with your radio show, with your books, all your books and the TV show, too. It’s been really fun to follow along.

Stephanie Hansen [00:27:01]:

Thanks. I. I had people that helped me along the way, so I feel like it’s my obligation, but also my joy to help other people because, you know, I. There are things about being a freelance creator and freelance writer and cookbook writer that no one can answer for you unless they’ve done it. And, you know that first person that told you, like, how much they made and how long it took and what to expect for food costs and, like, those were really valuable lessons that I was so glad that I learned and that people gave me the real deal because I think that is part of, you know, some people write books for fame and fortune. Some people write them to document a historical time in their life or something that’s important to them. And then some people just do it because they think it’s fun. But all of it and getting, you know, the historical background about what it’s going to cost and how long it’s going to take, it’s important information, I think, to learn before you set out on the journey.

Sarah Peterson [00:28:01]:

Right. And you’re doing such a great service to find that information and share it with the world. So.

Stephanie Hansen [00:28:07]:

Yeah. And I think your story about the food stylist, too, like, people, you don’t have to have a food stylist. Do the whole book. Like, you could have 10 shots or hero shots or the beginning of chapter shots. That’s a great way to do.

Sarah Peterson [00:28:19]:

And just like spending that time with Rachel, too, for those two or three days, like, I just learned so much. So I’ve taken some of that experience and been able to piggyback on that and some of the photography and things that I’m doing now.

Stephanie Hansen [00:28:33]:

Yeah, she’s really good at it. So I’m glad that Rachel was a resource for you. Her podcast, you can find it in the archives, too, of Dishing with Stephanie’s Dish, because it’s in there and it’s a good one to listen to. So, Sarah, thanks for being with me today. Congratulations on the book. It is Dish and Tell. And where can people get the book and how do you want them to

Sarah Peterson [00:28:53]:

follow you so they can find the book at, you know, online through the major retailers. And then if you’re in the Twin Cities, it’s at, like, Kowalski’s and a lot of independent bookstores. It’s even at Barnes and Noble. I went by and visited it this weekend at the Barnes and Noble in Roseville. I’ve been going around and seeing my book at different places. It’s so exciting, and people can follow me. My website is vintagedishandtel.com. my social media handles are the same.

Sarah Peterson [00:29:19]:

Vintage, Dish and Tell. And then I have a sub stack too, which, if you can’t find, just go to my website and you’ll be able to link to it.

Stephanie Hansen [00:29:26]:

Has anyone told you that when you see your book in the wild, you’re supposed to sign them?

Sarah Peterson [00:29:31]:

No, I’ve thought about that. Do you, like. Do you talk to the bookstore manager or the.

Stephanie Hansen [00:29:38]:

Sometimes I wouldn’t. At a Barnes and Noble, I’d probably just do it. But there’s a real rationale behind it, because booksellers can return books that don’t sell. They can’t return books that are signed.

Sarah Peterson [00:29:50]:

I’m gonna go sign every one I can find.

Stephanie Hansen [00:29:52]:

Yeah, I. Whenever I’m out and about, and if it’s a small store, I will tell them, okay. But if I see it, I’m. I’ll just. I go to the bookseller and I’m like, hey, I’m here and my book is here. Do you mind if I sign a couple? A lot of them have stickers and they’ll put, you know, signed edition. But if I’m at, like, Barnes and Noble, I just sit there with my pen and sign them all.

Sarah Peterson [00:30:11]:

Oh, that’s great. Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen [00:30:12]:

So make sure you sign them.

Sarah Peterson [00:30:13]:

Thanks for that. Hot tip.

Stephanie Hansen [00:30:14]:

Yeah, hot tip. Hot tip. All right, Sarah, thanks for joining me today.

Sarah Peterson [00:30:18]:

Thank you.

Stephanie Hansen [00:30:18]:

Okay, bye. Bye.

Sarah Peterson [00:30:20]:

Bye.

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Hello, everybody. Welcome to Dishing with Stephanie’s Dish, the podcast where we talk to people in the food space, cookbook writers, people that are obsessed with food. And I’m really delighted today to speak with Tim Niver. He is the host of the Niver Niverland podcast and also a restaurateur in St. Paul, our fine capital city. He owns Mochis, also is a friend. And I was just noticing in my calendar, we recorded about a year ago today.

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Tim Niver:

Yeah, well, I know we recorded before. I don’t remember the, the date, but I’m glad to, I’m glad to be back on. It’s, it’s, it’s a good time to talk about things.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah. And we. I’m going to release this podcast on Friday, so it’ll be timely. I moving it up in my schedule because we have been under extreme stress as restaurateurs and people in the hospitality industry basically for the last two months. But really increasingly in the last two weeks as ICE agents, 3,000 of them have started roaming the streets of Both Minneapolis and St. Paul and our surrounding suburbs and towns, asking people for papers, going into restaurants, stopping cars on the road, doing traffic enforcement type stops, going to people’s homes, taking children as little as 2 and 5 years old. And unfortunately, these actions have resulted in the shooting of Renee Good also over the weekend on Saturday, the shooting of Alex Pretty. And it is so interesting.

As this podcast was being released, a relief fund for Minnesota restaurants was launched by Stephanie March with support from The Minneapolis Foundation. You can give here:

Stephanie Hansen:

I was on the air live with my radio partner Stephanie March on Saturday morning when the second shooting happened, which technically is the third shooting because there was another one where someone was shot in the leg in their house, defending themselves with a shovel and a broom. What I just am so wanting people to hear from Minneapolis and St. Paul and Minnesota in general is that the actions that are happening here, A, are not legal, B, are not law enforcement, and C, are creating so much harm to a community that has been trying to recover for the last five years since the COVID pandemic. And I’m so. It’s always restaurants. We’re the canary in the coal mine. Right.

Tim Niver:

I’m, I’m listening. And it’s hard to refute anything you said. Number one, there’s a, restaurants are involved in particular in moments of social change, were involved in helping support, care for the community at large. As a product of them supporting and caring for us at large, it’s a debt that we want to owe to the community. But there’s a lot of pressure to act and, and it’s not always an easy decision because we’re business people in this. In this state, business feels insignificant altogether. And then to continue to participate appropriately on whatever way you can is, I think, ultimately where we all need to be. Whatever we can do, whatever you feel like you want to do, that should be enough for people.

But there’s a lot of expectation.

Stephanie Hansen:

It’s fascinating, too, because when I say that restaurants are the canary in the coal mine, I feel like when these situations happen or civil unrest happens or starts to unfold, we see it in the restaurant community because it is communal spaces. But then we also lean on the restaurateurs and people to provide food and community. And there’s so much expectation not only for you to, hey, run your business and serve me my pizza in a timely fashion, but can you also donate and feed my whole community and show up? And it’s so interesting because you guys do. Yes, you do. You can.

Tim Niver:

We do it despite being able to.

Stephanie Hansen:

Because you are hospitalitarians in your heart. Like, yeah, that is why you stay in this business. It is a level of service and leadership.

Tim Niver:

Yeah, yeah, it’s. I just think it’s a matter of care, which is what we innately provide. And when there’s moments where care is especially needed. You’ve seen this community react in full. The restaurant community and the community at large, like, we’ve all reacted in full. We’ve been there for each other. It’s inspiring.

Stephanie Hansen:

It is inspiring. And it’s ongoing.

Tim Niver:

Yeah, it’s ongoing. It’s an economic occupation as well. Completely affects and dampens any kind of feelings of joy. The. The way you might want to express yourself on a birthday feels different. The way you want to express yourself on an anniversary might feel different. Things that we celebrate, that we, as restaurateurs, try to preserve. Now we’re changing our language to It’s really nice to have you here. Even the things we say prompting, you know, it’s. It’s not. It’s discompassionate, perhaps, to ask somebody how they’re doing right now. So. So we’re talking to each other in a whole new language based on how. How things feel.

It’s pervasive on all levels. But we have to persist, right? We have to, as a business, even though it feels insignificant in the moment, you have to persist. You have to do the things through an, you know, austerity or what have you to understand clearly what you’re able to support and give. And then on the Inside, you have to make the decision about folks who need every single hour of work that they get per week to stay afloat. Many restaurants are the same way. And so, you know, this kind of doubles down on a time that is not normally busy. It’s a huge multiplier effect.

Stephanie Hansen:

It’s like 20 below in January and has been for about a week in the Twin Cities with another potential week ahead.

Tim Niver:

Right. And, you know, it does keep people in the suburbs. That interaction between the inner parts of the city, it becomes a more of a bubble. So, you know, and understanding security. It’s true. Like, I get it. You know, these are all real things. Overall, it’s a big pill to swallow.

Stephanie Hansen:

And the weight is getting really heavy. The reason I think you’re uniquely qualified to speak to me today is I want people to know that in 2025, you were the James Beard semifinalist for outstanding hospitality, and you are known in our community for providing great food, great service, but your whole being and your whole approach to care and hospitality within the confines of our restaurant’s four walls is what you’ve really done your entire career. And you’ve mentioned that that looks like it’s changed. It has to change. It has to be modernized in light of the times and the moments that we find ourselves in.

Tim Niver:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, we began to lean more, lead more with compassion after George Floyd and Covid, trying to understand, you know, there’s also a lot of strengthened worker rights. A lot of things have been changing over the years, and in good fashion. But also, I guess the thing that we. We try to do is just stay with it. We’ve been through some of these similar feelings before. They’re triggering.

Stephanie Hansen:

And thank you for saying that, because I. I do think that is a uniquely Minnesota thing in that five years ago, when the George Floyd murder happened, and, well, the lockdowns were first, and then the George Floyd murder. Like, when I hear a helicopter, I feel very anxious. I feel like a trauma of what is happening. I’m heightened. I’m scared. I’m looking around. I’m wondering if there’s some breaking news.

It’s hard to describe that to people who haven’t lived under that complete fear of what’s next.

Tim Niver:

Yeah. And in many parts of the world, they live like that every day.

Stephanie Hansen:

And also true. Yeah. And. Oh, gosh.

Tim Niver:

But we certainly do gain a perspective that nobody else could have. It also provided ample levels of or already set types of organizations in times of need. People had done this before.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah. And it mobilized quick. How Fast people.

Tim Niver:

Well, you know, we’re trying to. We’re all trying to protect somebody here. We’re all trying to protect somebody. So I really feel like having had experience like that, you have a new generation of restaurateurs and thinkers like Rectangle Pizza. They lead with love, but they’ll fight for it. Just such heart and fearlessness. That’s. That’s fearlessness.

I don’t contain that. I don’t contain that. Thank God they do. Thank God they do.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah.

Tim Niver:

And they’re thrust into it too, like being where they are.

Stephanie Hansen:

To give some context, Wrecktangle Pizza put out a mutual aid fund and I think they raised at last count, over a hundred thousand dollars of. Oh, over two.

Tim Niver:

I believe it’s over two through selling.

Stephanie Hansen:

Pizzas and collecting donations. And that money is going back into their communities. And we’ve seen a lot of that. These mutual aid funds that people have just started on their own.

Tim Niver:

Then they were visited the next, the following day after they did that by Ice2, perhaps recognizing that they were part of some resistance by helping take care of people and, you know, it just. How is that imaginable?

Stephanie Hansen:

What do you. I. It’s hard to describe the. It’s hard to describe the impact that the diverse population and immigrant population has had on the restaurant business as a whole. I think some people believe that everyone who works in a restaurant that is a black or a brown person is somehow an illegal person. And it’s ignorant and I’m not sure people fully know, but there is this sort of idea too, like, well, these owners. These owners are employing these people without papers and we’re just getting the bad guys. Can.

You’ve been in this industry a long time. This industry is made up of a lot of people.

Tim Niver:

Yeah. You know, honestly, you hire somebody, you have to do the paperwork. That’s the only way they can get paid. And I am not an ID expert. I do not run this through some sort of machine that tells me exactly where the documents are. We’ve. We’ve been very, very fortunate just for a matter of retention that we’ve done so little hiring. It made moochies in particular, but in general that, you know, it’s just part of the first day packet, but you have to take care of it.

Tim Niver:

It’s. It’s immensely important to the infrastructure of a business to be organized in such a way and still mistakes can be made. But for me in particular, it’s never a question. It’s like, you have to have this to work. It’s so easy. Either you do or you don’t.

And when you pay someone and give them a paycheck, there is an employment tax that’s attached to that paycheck.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Their own. And then we match. Yeah, we. No, nobody gets around that. There’s no way for them not to pay taxes unless somebody’s doing something illegal. But everybody’s got to do the same paperwork.

They get the same i9 w4 and w2 at the end of the year. You know, it’s all stated. That doesn’t make somebody legal either. But in terms of when you hire somebody, you go through and you. You do what you can to do everything right. And hopefully they stay for a long time, whoever they are. Yeah, but we are made up of the community at large. Any city is going to be made up of a cast of characters and we certainly don’t want them to be the same character over and over.

The diversity speaks loudly to the depth of the culture that you exist in. So we benefit.

Stephanie Hansen:

It’s also when we look at the diversity of the food culture that’s offered in the Twin Cities. I mean, you’re making Italian food.

Tim Niver:

Italian American. Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie Hansen:

Someone else is making Somali food, Ethiopian food, Vietnamese food. The irony is we have all these diverse cultures all coming together over this common tradition of breaking bread, of communally spending time in community together at our tables.

Tim Niver:

Yes.

Stephanie Hansen:

And it just saddens me that this is, this schism that is going to happen. It happens in restaurants first and then we’re going to be the last ones to be able to pick up the pieces when all these creeps leave. And all of this is, you know, the bad guys and the murderers and the rapists and whatever excuse you want to use for this complete brutality that’s happening to our community, then the restaurateurs will again pick it up. Food costs will probably increase. I would imagine none of these things that are happening are inexpensive. We have a somewhat broken food system nationally. You know, when you think about.

Tim Niver:

It’s a rough year of tariffs. It was a rough year. Understanding the more in price increases, insurance costs, health care costs, whatever you’re involved with, you know, I’m. My little business. You would be so shocked to know what we pay for insurance a year.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah, I just wrote my thousand dollar check for the month. Yeah, I’m a freelance person. No support.

Tim Niver:

A lot of money.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah, it is.

Tim Niver:

And those things have been ongoing. And then this obviously again is, like I said, a multiplying factor.

Stephanie Hansen:

So how do you keep. I mean, we’ve painted a Pretty gloomy picture. So how do you keep waking up every day and coming into your restaurant and finding joy? Because I think a couple of months in and two weeks of really acute persecution here, people are feeling really beleaguered.

Tim Niver:

Yeah, Weighted, I guess what I’d say. And I. And I haven’t necessarily found it totally in myself, but we talk about preserving joy and pieces of it. You shouldn’t think of joy being some all encompassing kind of a thing that just washes over you completely. You really have to parse it out and be deliberate with how you preserve your joy. Right now, that may be in a restaurant, I think I’m just starting to get my feet kind of how I feel personally. But the last few days kind of forced myself into tons of conversation. Even though that doesn’t always feel comfortable.

I feel like staying at home. So I think that conversation, there’s. Maybe you’re commiserating or whatever, but there is a unity when you don’t hold up, when you don’t sacrifice joy because of it feels wrong. In this time, I do believe, you know, my message to anybody would be is, and I am intent on this is just where you see joy, like stop and engage with it and. Or force it and make sure that you’re trying anyway. Get out, go where you want to go. It doesn’t have to be Moochie’s. It doesn’t.

That that’s not it, you know, but that. That’s part of it too, you know, hey, we’re giving a lot of money. Other, not just restaurants, people are giving a lot of money and resource to. To feeding people or staying safe or doing what they need to do right now. I mean, I understand dining out may not be your priority, but preserving a little bit of joy, if you could consider that. I think, I think there’s a little tiny pot of gold. Right.

Stephanie Hansen:

I thought I would start out this year talking about, like, food trends, because I love to talk about food trends. It’s like one of my favorite things to talk about. But, you know, that feels a little like we’re not doing that today. How are your colleagues feeling? Like you have a unique ability because you have people on your podcast. You are behind the scenes in the hospitality business. How are your colleagues doing?

Tim Niver:

Beleaguered. Beleaguered. Same boat. You know, the tides are out. It’s not in saying that is unattractive. You know, I get it. Like saying. Saying that things are hard is kind of an unattractive thing or unhospitable thing.

But we’re all feeling it. It’s. It’s kind of hard. Anyway, I’m empathic, so, like, I’m just, like, sponging energy, and I. It’s. It’s really hard to, like, you know, continue to hear it.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah. I. I also think something that has come to me over the years of working in this business is we think about artists and musicians as these very creative beings. Right. And their art is their song or their poem or their story. And what I have learned in this business is that my fellow hospitalitarity people are also artists. It is the food that they are putting on the plate. It is the care with which they are putting there.

It is the farmer who’s growing his heirloom seed to get that tomato to bring to you to make that perfect. Yeah. Salad. And artists as a class tend to be fairly sensitive people. They have a lot of empathy, a lot of emotional capacity, and it is just crushing sometimes. Similar happening. Yeah.

Tim Niver:

Yeah. You know, going back just a bit toward the last piece about Joy, a story. I got reminded of something after I said my bit last week. Earlier last week, like, Tuesday, before anything happened with Alex Preddy, I was at the door. A father and son walked in the door, and I’m at the host stand, and I see that they have a birthday designation. And I’m like, hey, you know, welcome in. I see one of you is having a birthday today. And they both kind of stopped in their tracks.

And I said, hey, hey. I didn’t. You know, I don’t mean to get, you know, too personal. Whatever. I just see it listed here, and they’re like, well, my wife, his mother, she died 30 days ago, and today’s her birthday. Oh, that’s why we have to be here.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah, that’s.

Tim Niver:

That’s what we have to preserve, and that’s what people should. Should still celebrate.

Stephanie Hansen:

Sorry.

Tim Niver:

Thanks.

Stephanie Hansen:

No, it’s. It. It’s interesting because I’m one of those weirdos that gets together with friends in January and does tarot card readings.

Tim Niver:

Oh, I love it.

Stephanie Hansen:

And my, you know, you can pick, like, career adventure. And I picked joy as my, like, category, and I’ve been feeling kind of joyless. And you really hit something on the head when you talked about joy, which is something I’m working on, but it’s recent, so I’m not doing well at it yet. But it’s hard that, you know, I really. I was working on a project that wrapped up at the end of the year, and I pushed myself so hard. By the time I got done, I Just was an empty, depleted cup. I had nothing left. And I had this trip planned, and I was gonna go on this trip, and I was gonna rest and read, and I was gonna get my joy back and re.

Energize. And on that trip, all this thing, these things were happening at home, and I haven’t been sleeping, and it’s been just constant cortisol rushing.

Tim Niver:

Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen:

And I didn’t get that joy in that way that I felt. And. And what my tarot cards said was exactly what you said, which is. It’s not a huge wave. It’s the moments within the wave. And you have to intentionally seek them out, look for them, create opportunities for them to happen.

Tim Niver:

Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen:

And for me, as a person who loves restaurants, it does happen a lot in restaurants.

Tim Niver:

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it’s not a manufactured feeling, you know, either. When you come in here, there’s a genuine desire to uphold whatever you’re there to be doing in whatever form. You know, whether it’s a funeral or, you know, an anniversary or a birth. You know, we want to be able. When you walk in the door, we want to be able to make sure we’re taken care of. Wherever you are, be compassionate to that moment.

And that’s why memories are made in restaurants. It’s where people get together, you hear other voices, and you don’t have to listen to them. You know, it’s a din. It kind of makes you feel comfortable, like there’s an outside world that’s not affecting you. And there’s a lot of beauty in finding a place that gives you that sort of peace for a little while and visiting it.

Stephanie Hansen:

Oh, and I just. I think about Town Talk Diner, which was one of your original spots, and so many people still talk about that place and Nick Kosevich and you, and just this idea of what that place meant to so many people. And you’ve had a number of places like that because then you had Saint Dinette. And I’m trying to think of the. I’m trying. A total blank of your place.

Tim Niver:

Strip club up on the hill.

Stephanie Hansen:

Thank you.

Tim Niver:

Strip club. It’s all good. It’s a lot of years.

Stephanie Hansen:

It’s a lot of years, like, so many of these places that have meant so much to people as we move forward, because we’re really in it right now. We’re sort of stuck. What would you like to see moving forward? And how can people listening to this podcast be supportive of restaurants in general if you’re their spokesperson?

Tim Niver:

Yeah, if I was a spokesperson and. And I. And I kind of am sometimes, you know, I don’t try not to speak for the whole industry at large, but I would just say, you know, mind, mind what you are spending on and what you aren’t spending on and a business is doing the same. And I’m just looking for moments of unity between everybody that we can to kind of find some sort of momentum back into pushing towards joy. But for business folks right now, we understand we have a little bit of more time to consider that this might be happening. So to those business folks, I’d say consider your austerity. Now. What keeps you there for your community? What keeps you there for your employees? What keeps you there for the right reasons? But also, you know, folks, I know that they’re in general acting so generously and putting emotion on things, but I would say, you know, to preserve that joy, make a reservation somewhere and go out and eat, do whatever you can.

Tim Niver:

It doesn’t have to be a full blown meal. It could be a short visit. It could be go in and have a drink and hug the person you really like there. But I think you have to kind of get everybody working in the space that yes, there may be some time here for operators, but also for folks that are out there feeling a lot of different ways that there is a lot to be said for visiting and being out in your community and it’s not a feelful place all the time. And restaurants and businesses, we need you to continue to visit. It’s really that important. And that’s all there is. You know, it’s a business that’s in service of others and without them it’s hard to continue.

Stephanie Hansen:

And it feels so much better to, you know, after ruminating in my house for days. Then today I went to two coffee shops and I sat down with a friend who’s turns out starting a business. She’s an immigrant herself and scared and trying to figure out what the way forward is. Just spending time hearing her, hearing her concerns.

Tim Niver:

Yes.

Stephanie Hansen:

Introducing her to some new people that maybe she hadn’t thought about that might be resources. Yes, I just.

Tim Niver:

Expanding your community and, and yeah, expanding your community and bringing people in, bringing people in, you know, and we have.

Stephanie Hansen:

So many young people like, I mean, we’ve been around the block. We’re sage and oh no, the young.

Tim Niver:

The youngs are, are really strong here. You can see it in their dedication to their craft. You can see it in the dedication to their employees. You can see it in their dedication. In whatever way they were able to show solidarity during a day of Strike. It’s. It’s really insanely cool. Group of people were hoping for, rooting for desirous of their success.

Tim Niver:

I mean, that’s what we want.

Stephanie Hansen:

We do, because we had the, you know, the Phil Roberts and we had our. Everyone’s mentor, Tim McKee. But we have this new group of really committed and passionate folks, and it’s nice to be able to share wisdom with them, but also to create and be absorbed in their energy of how they want to move this industry forward. It’s pretty neat.

Tim Niver:

During these times. During these times. Well, you know, you. You said it. And I feel that this industry has been nothing but supportive, if not led the way in a lot of ways. I’m proud to be a part of it. I would like to do just what I do, but I understand that times are different and we all need to stand up and in the way that we need to stand up, but we do need to stand up and show ourselves for everyone. Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen:

If all you can muster is to go to a new business and have a cup of coffee, then do that. If you have the time or the capacity to be a protester, do that. Like there’s nothing. Everyone showing up in different ways. I just want people to hear that you show up. And even if you didn’t vote for who I voted for or you voted for someone and that wasn’t what you thought you got, it’s past that.

Tim Niver:

We’re just humanity, man.

Stephanie Hansen:

This is.

Tim Niver:

This is humanity. This is treating each other appropriately.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah. That’s it.

Tim Niver:

Like basic stuff. And then respecting our rights.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah. And agreed. Well, I think, Tim, I’m gonna wrap it up. I really. I love spending time with you today.

Tim Niver:

Thanks.

Stephanie Hansen:

Farther away from the restaurant now, so I don’t get in as often, but.

Tim Niver:

You know, we’re here. Just we’re here anyway, you know, we’re here.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah.

Tim Niver:

You feel us? You feel us?

Stephanie Hansen:

I do. And I really appreciate the leadership, also the respect that you have garnished in this community and the leadership that you provide for other restaurant tours and just.

Tim Niver:

Trying to earn it. I’ll keep trying to earn it.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah, you do. Every day. And just the ability to be able to hear your story and to help people understand what it feels like on the ground as a small business person who’s just trying to keep their people employed, their family fed, and are moving. Yeah, exactly. Thanks, Tim.

Tim Niver:

Yeah, my pleasure. Always.

Stephanie Hansen:

Okay, we’ll talk to you soon.

Tim Niver:

Thank you.

Stephanie Hansen:

Okay, bye. Bye. Bye.

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Growing up as a Canadian-born Vietnamese Chinese American, Kat Lieu sought comfort in the flavors of her youth, like taro, matcha and black sesame. But she struggled to find a home for herself as a third-culture baker in American bakeries, online, or in cookbooks. In the auspiciously titled 108 Asian Cookies, Lieu honors the varied and rich tapestry of Asian cultures and ingredients

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Original Episode Transcript Follows:

Stephanie Hansen:

Hello, everybody, and welcome to Dishing with Stephanie’s Dish, the podcast where we talk to people in the food space, a lot of cookbook authors, manufacturers, and people who are doing cool things with food. And Ashley Russell came across my desk, and she has a cookbook that’s called “What’s Cooking Good Looking”. And I was first of all, captured by the illustrations in the book you are working on or have. They were very. How do I describe them? They were like tattoos. They were adorable, and they are original art by @sadpuppytattoo.

When Ashley describes the banana bread of her grandmas, she was generous enough to share the recipe here.

Ashley Russell:

Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen:

Tell me about the book and how you decided to illustrate it the way you did. And then I wanted to talk to you specifically about self publishing a book, because I think a lot of people think about it, but they’re not sure how to do it. So I just wanted to get your feedback.

Ashley Russell:

Totally. So I started this book inspired by my grandma. She passed away in 2024, summer of 2024. And it was almost immediate, was like, we have to have all the family has to have our recipes. And so she had a really cute little vintage recipe card box, and the whole process just sort of unfolded over the past year and a half. It is definitely a lot of Southern cooking. She’s from Texas, but lived the past 30 years up in northern Washington. And her and my mom and her siblings lived all over the country.

So there’s just a little bit of everything in there from, like, recipes she got from neighbors or things that she learned from different parts of the country. So it’s a really fun, like, eclectic mix of American cooking. And it’s just so much her. Like, there’s sugar and everything, and it’s just. I’m so happy to have all of the family favorites in one place. Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen:

Did you work with members of the family, or was it primarily. Did it fall on you to compile everything?

Ashley Russell:

I definitely compiled everything, but my family was there every step of the way. Like, my grandma wrote in cursive, and I couldn’t always read it.

Stephanie Hansen:

A lot of our grandmas wrote in cursive, and it is hard to read.

Ashley Russell:

It’s so hard to read. And so we started this text group, and I would be like, does anyone know what this says? And then also things like vegetable oil or sweet milk or, you know, polio olio. Exactly. What is that?

Stephanie Hansen:

It’s shortening. But, I mean, nobody knew.

Ashley Russell:

Nobody knew. And so it was a lot of just, like, you know, there were puzzles to it, and it was funny, and it brought us together and it kept us talking about her. And then, in addition to the community that I reached out to here in Portland, all My family members helped recipe test because it’s like they remembered how it was supposed to taste. So it was almost like, you know, I think that this is missing this because she didn’t write everything down. Like, a lot of things lived in her head.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah. Did you ever done this before or anything like this? Do you. What’s your background?

Ashley Russell:

No. So I worked for a decade in costume design. I worked on a lot of small budget indie film and tv. And so I think I’m used to like, okay, we have this big hurdle of a project ahead. But I’ve never, I’ve never written a book. I’ve never written a cookbook. And the whole process was such a journey, but it, it was all so much fun, I think, because I was like learning and uncovering things about my family along the way. Yeah.

Ashley Russell:

So.

Stephanie Hansen:

Well, the creative process too, I think, is. Know you talk about being a costume designer. I didn’t really think about writing a cookbook or recipes or being a recipe developer as a creative endeavor until I kind of started doing it more. And then I was like, oh, yeah, this does require creativity. And this is where that, where I scratch that itch.

Ashley Russell:

Yes, totally. I agree with that. It is super creative. And I never realized that either. I have a few cookbooks, but in this process, it made me realize, like, what little magical creative books they are and how much, you know, there’s people’s dreams and they nourish us and they’re little windows into different parts of history and people’s lives and they’re just pretty cool. Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen:

And people talk about like, I’m, I’m in the process of. I just released a book in September, so I’m out at bookstores and grocery stores and selling the book everywhere. And a lot of people are like, oh, you know, nobody really needs cookbooks anymore. And I was like, well, actually, you can always look up a recipe on the Internet that’s there, but the narrative, the piece of how that fits into their life, the memory that that recipe brings or that combination of spices that transports you to a place that is what is unique about a cookbook. It’s. It’s so much more than just the recipe. And if you’re not jazzed by any of that, then, yeah, it’s probably not for you.

Ashley Russell:

Totally. Yes. Like, you have to be inspired by it. Right. And like, I don’t know, I get pretty annoyed with recipes online. There’s a ton of pop ups and your phone, you know, has the auto timer and it has to face ID every two minutes. I. It’s just when you have it in a cookbook, it’s almost like the record version of like a Spotify song.

I don’t know, like, you sure? Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie Hansen:

Like, and you can get a song but you don’t have it in the context of all the songs in the record and that the artist had. Yeah, it’s very similar, actually.

Ashley Russell:

Totally. And like, people love listening to records and collecting records and I really just think it’s, it’s, it’s a similar. Comes from a similar place.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah. Okay. So your book, what’s Cooking Good Looking? It is a spiral bound, which I thought was an interesting choice that I want to ask you about. And it’s also got these illustrations. Did you illustrate it or did someone else? They’re real cute. They’re like tattooed inspired and they’re kind of jazzy and it kind of. It had like a hipster core vibe to it.

Ashley Russell:

Yes. So my boyfriend’s brother’s sister, so more or less my sister in law. I’ve known her for six years now. She’s a tattoo artist and she does a lot of florals and she did like a food flash at one point. And I’ve always loved her art. And when I was first starting the book, I was in Canva and I was like, oh, clip art’s cute. And I was like, you know, I don’t know if I would ever release a book with clip art in it, you know, And I wasn’t sold on doing photography. I knew how specific and it had to be.

Ashley Russell:

Like, people have nailed food photography. If I was going to do it, I wanted to make sure it rocked. And so I asked her one day, I was like, would you want to illustrate this book? And she was like, oh my God, yes. And her tattoos are in black and white already. So it kind of, it transferred pretty easily into print form. And so I was able to use all of her tattoo library, like things she had already drawn. And then she drew things specifically for the book as well. And I just think it looks awesome.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah, it really does. It’s real sweet. And what about the choice of spiral bound? And can you talk, can you make that be the introduction of talking about like how you decided to self publish and did you go out and try to find agents or did you go right to self publishing?

Ashley Russell:

Sure. So I in the past couple years have been really inspired by Rizzo prints and graphic novels and a lot of small press publishing and super inspired by vintage cookbooks. And a lot of them are spiral bound or they’re notebook bound. And it’s. It’s kind of like, it gives it this retro feel, and it’s kind of an homage to all of, like, the women’s groups and church groups that did cookbooks over the decades. But I also think it’s super functional in the kitchen. And I had a graphic design friend mention to me that she loves when a spiral bound is a color that totally offsets the book. So my book is, like, very black and white and yellow, and then it has this bright red spiral binding.

And I just think it makes it pop. Like, it’s. It’s fun and practical. So as far as self publishing. So when I started this, it was really just a project for my family. It was really just, you know, I wanted them to have all the recipes. I. I wasn’t even sure if I was going to print it.

And as the process unfolded more, I realized more and more that I wanted to make this a book. And I wanted to put my heart in this book. And I wanted to share who Wanda and our family is with the world. And it really was just like a flower slowly blooming. Like, every week would be like, oh, I have to put the ingredients in the order of the method. Oh, you have to do this. Oh, people like, you know, like, you want everything in a recipe on one page. You don’t want to have to, like, go back and forth.

And it became this really fun project puzzle for me to be like, maybe I can create a cookbook. And so I didn’t reach out to agents or anything, because I think the main important part was for this book to be about my grandma and come from me. And I was worried that having an agent or a publisher might dilute that a little bit.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah, they’d have feedback or input or change things. Sure.

Ashley Russell:

Yeah. So I was able to work with a lot of friends, family, and get a lot of feedback throughout the entire process. I hired an editor, and so there was that constructive criticism, but I didn’t feel like the voice or the vision was changing for profit, per se. And so self publishing is what I stuck with. And I think that in order for me to print this book the way I wanted to and for it to look the way it does, I don’t know if I could have convinced a publisher to get on board with that.

Stephanie Hansen:

So then you make that decision and you’ve got your book assembled or your PDF pages, essentially. Did you tell me about, like, did you go out and just Google, like, how to self publish? Did you figure out, like, how to print on Demand was there color considerations. Kind of walk me through that process a little bit.

Ashley Russell:

Sure. So I did start looking up print on demand and I started Googling, you know, how to write a cookbook. I listened to Maggie Green’s podcast Cookbook Love, like, religiously. I got books on the subject, and I really just created, like, it was my own research project. And I was learning as I went. What turned me away from doing, like, on demand printing or online publishing was that I really wanted it to be spiral bound. I knew that from the beginning almost. And I really wanted to do a mixture of Rizzo printing.

Ashley Russell:

And I wanted the paper. I just wanted everything to be really high quality and feel like her note cards, feel like her recipe cards. And I didn’t think I would get that with online printing. So I went and talked with a few print shops here in Portland, Oregon, and Brown Printing, like, got the project right away. And I’ve been working with them for the past several months to get it printed.

Stephanie Hansen:

Have you. Have you printed, like, X amount and you’re kind of selling stock as you go?

Ashley Russell:

Yeah, So I, you know, budget has been a concern throughout this whole process. Like, anyone who’s made a cookbook knows it gets very expensive between recipe testing. And I did end up doing photography. I did it myself. All of those things really add up. And so I did an initial print run of 300, which is almost gone at this point. I just picked it up in the beginning of the month. And Brown’s doing another run of.

Ashley Russell:

Of, 300 for the 1st of December so I can have more for the holidays.

Stephanie Hansen:

And then do you package them up and ship them when people make an order? Can you talk a little bit about that? Because people don’t think about that. But you have to buy, like, special envelopes. You have to go to the post office. There is a category for media mail that makes it a little cheaper, but it’s still. It’s a process.

Ashley Russell:

It is a process. Like, every bit of this has been such a process. And so, yeah, my. My limit, I had about 180 orders to ship out when I got all the books from recipe testers. Order, pre-orders, family, you know, you name it. And our whole. Our whole living room and kitchen was just, like, stacked with boxes and you.

Stephanie Hansen:

And they’re bigger than you think.

Ashley Russell:

Like, they’re bigger than you think and they’re heavy.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yes. And a box of like, 15 books is, like, a big box. And they’re everywhere.

Ashley Russell:

They’re everywhere. Yeah. So, you know, it’s kind of like if you’re an Etsy shop owner, you know, kind of our pain, I guess. But, you know, you’re doing. You’re the manual labor and you’re the author and you’re the publisher, you know, so you’re doing everything. And I lugged them all down to the UPS and USPS and shipped them off. Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen:

Where do you go from here with it? Like, you gotta sell through your next 300, obviously. Did this, like, create a pathway for you, or is this where you’ll end this journey and just one and done. And it was great.

Ashley Russell:

Yeah. So when I first started, I had over 300 recipes from the family. And I reached out to my first editor contact and they were like, whoa, that’s a lot of recipes. They’re like, books are usually like 75 to 150. And I was like, oh. And like now seeing this printed and it’s 260 pages, like, I get it. But at the time, I was like, I just wanted to have everything. And so I have at least one other book of Wanda’s on the horizon.

But for now, I’m really just trying to put myself in. What if I had a publisher? What if I had an agent? What would they be doing? So it’s a lot. Yeah, it’s a lot of reaching out to retail stores, seeing if I can get an interview on a podcast, trying to put my book out there in ways that I know of and seeing where it lands. I have. There’s about seven stores in Portland that are carrying the book right now, and they’re all stores I really love. And that’s super exciting.

Stephanie Hansen:

They carry it on consignment or do you sell them to them outright?

Ashley Russell:

It depends. So a couple are wholesale and a couple are consignment. Wholesale obviously works better for us, but I’m just happy to have the book out there. I think it’s a good time of year. You know, she made all these dishes for Thanksgiving and. And Christmas, so it’s the. It’s the time to have it in your kitchen.

Stephanie Hansen:

Do you. Can you talk about, like, how much you make per book?

Ashley Russell:

Sure. So if I’m talking just printing costs to do the 300 with the brown printing and the riso printing I did by hand at outlet PDX, we’re looking at about $20 a book. And I have the book priced at 38. So because I’m not splitting this with any publisher or agent, that means technically $20 profit goes back into my pocket. But at this point, we’re still paying off all the production costs, and it also doesn’t include that dollar amount. Doesn’t include, like, my labor. So when you really figure it out, it’s probably. Or food.

When you really figure out the numbers. This first round probably cost me about $50 a book to make, you know, and then the hope is, over the years, if continuing to sell copies here and there, you break even, or maybe you make a few dollars.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah, it’s. It is kind of like that. As you get, like, past Wanda’s story, do you see this being a journey you’ll stay on, or is it really just. I’m curious if it ignited something in you because you seem like a creative person.

Ashley Russell:

Yeah. Like, I’ve always wanted to be a writer, and it’s been pretty daunting. My grandma always encouraged me to be a writer. This feels like that first step. I also like the idea. I’ve heard a cookbook is, like, the best business card, you know, And I think that’s, like, a great way to look at it, too. It’s something that I’ve made that I can say, you know, I wrote this, I’ve made this. I’d like to do this project.

Stephanie Hansen:

And fascinating, because that is for. For me personally, I wanted to have agency in the cooking space, and I wasn’t. And I wasn’t a writer, so I was like, how am I going to get that? I wanted to have a television show. I wanted to do more podcasting, specifically about food. I had a radio show about food, but I needed to have more autonomy, and that's how I started.

Ashley Russell:

Totally. That makes sense. Did you. Do you feel like that helped achieve some of the dreams you had?

Stephanie Hansen:

Oh, for sure. I have a TV show now, and I wouldn’t have had the TV show if I hadn’t have written the cookbook, I don’t think.

Ashley Russell:

Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen:

Because even though I’m a home chef or a home cook and not a chef at all, actually having the book gives you some credibility of why this person’s gonna invest in you and put you on television station. 88 markets. I don’t think they would have done that if I wouldn’t have had the book.

Ashley Russell:

Totally. And honestly, like, I think being a home chef, you almost write a better cookbook because you can anticipate what other home chefs are going to be confused by or what they need written down.

Stephanie Hansen:

Well. And a lot of the best chefs, who I have much admiration and respect for, their books are really challenging or technical and. And that’s great. Like, maybe that’s who they’re writing them for. But some of my favorite chefs, I get their books and I keep them because I love the photography and I just admire so much of the skills and what they bring to the party. But very few of them I actually ever cooked out of.

Ashley Russell:

Yeah, they’re like these beautiful aspirations.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah, they’re aspirational books, for sure.

Ashley Russell:

Yeah.

Stephanie Hansen:

Can you talk a little bit about Wanda? Just your grandma? Like, you just have a real spirit about you that must come from her. And I’m just curious why she was so meaningful to you outside of just being your grandma.

Ashley Russell:

Yeah, totally. So I was raised by my mom. It was just me and my mom and I would spend a lot of time with my grandparents. I think when you’re set up in that sort of one parent system, I was either going with my mom everywhere or I was spending summers at my grandparents, and those summers at my grandparents. I, I feel like as an adult, I’m sort of chasing that feeling, you know, of, of being, you know.

Stephanie Hansen:

Really? Yeah. Oh, that’s so touching.

Ashley Russell:

Yeah. I mean, it’s true. Whether it’s cooking in the kitchen or laughing with my grandpa. You know, my grandma taught me how to sew, and later on in life, I worked in costumes and I used to bake with her, and now I’m making this cookbook. She meant a lot to me. And I know, I know both of them meant so much to our whole family that I don’t want, I don’t want us to lose that, and I don’t want anyone that comes next in our family to not know about it.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah. Yeah. What a beautiful sentiment. I, I just the I, the what you said, just, I’ve been chasing that feeling is really. I wrote my book for very similar reasons. You know, my mom had died early of breast cancer, and I wanted to document family recipes. Yeah, just the way you said that was really beautiful, so. Oh, that’s so nice.

Ashley Russell:

I, I, whether or not we’re aware of it, that we’re, we’re kind of doing that right. You know, where’s your happy place? What makes you, what brings you happiness? And those memories really do as, as I’m sure other memories for other people do for them.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah. All right. Well, I have loved hearing your story. I knew right away when the book came across my desk and you reached out to me directly, I was like, oh, yeah, I do want to talk to her. I want to figure out, like, what inspired her to take this on. Because it is a labor of love, you. Even if, I mean, I don’t I’ve not read a statistic, but like most cookbooks and most cookbook authors are not getting rich by writing cookbooks. They’re using it to parlayed into other things.

So it’s usually not actually a money making endeavor. It’s more a creative process and something that you do as a labor of love. And I think a lot of people that love cookbooks may be listening, you know, have wanted to do this. So I wanted to like, really document, like, how did you do it and what did you think about and how did you decide to put it together? When you put your list of recipes together, was it obvious what was going to make it?

Ashley Russell:

Yeah, you know, it started with what are the family favorites? What, what do we have to have? And then it was with, you know, what turned out really well in recipe testing. And from there, like, you know, the, the, the baking section’s over half the book. Yeah. And then it was sort of trying to round out the other sections of the book. Yeah. And they were recipes that could stand the test of time and that people would still want to make and also that my, my grandma would enjoy another favorites. Oh, yeah. So I mean, her banana bread is like, I knew I wanted to start the book with her banana bread and end it with sweet tea.

That’s my grandma to the core. And then in between, you know, there’s so many great home cooked meals, home cooked desserts. She had a famous chocolate pie, famous pecan pie. Her Italian cream cake is to die for. It’s like a coconut cake. Um, my aunt Angie, her oldest daughter, said that people used to request that she make that. So that was fun to learn and to put in the book.

Stephanie Hansen:

And now you know how to make all the things too, or a lot of the things.

Ashley Russell:

Yes. My family’s like, well, I guess you’re cooking for Thanksgiving now because you know all of her recipes.

Stephanie Hansen:

Oh, that’s so great. I really enjoyed talking to you. It is Ashley Russell. The book is I wrote the what’s Cooking Good Looking? Sorry. It is a really beautiful, fun, different way to approach this topic of cookbooks. And I was really. I’m impressed by what you did and I know your grandma would be, she would love it. She’d be real proud of you.

And it’s really nice to talk with you and share your story. I’ll put a link to the book in the podcast notes and put that all together and hopefully we’ll help you sell through your next 300. Ashley.

Ashley Russell:

Thank you, Stephanie. I really appreciate it.

Stephanie Hansen:

Yeah, it was great. To hear your story and to just spend time with you. Good luck.

Ashley Russell:

Thanks. Have a good day.

Stephanie Hansen:

All right. Bye.

Ashley Russell:

Bye.

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Original Episode Transcript Follows

Stephanie:

Hello, everybody, and welcome to Dishing with Stephanie’s Dish, the podcast where we talk about food. A lot of times we talk to cookbook authors and kind of understand their process and what they’re doing. Well, I’m just noticing my hair is real bedhead, but it is what it is. Friends, in this particular episode, I want to talk to my friend Michael Kenney. He is from Defined Destinations. He owns his own business, and it’s a travel company. And. And Michael and I met about three years ago now, and we have done a number of trips together, and we are planning our April trip, which is going to be to Turkey, and we have a lot of different cities that we’re going to visit.

And one of the things that I’ve heard from a lot of people is they all know we’re going to Turkey and they want to hear about it, and they’re excited to know about the destination, but they’re nervous about signing up for the trip. So said to Michael, let’s just talk. Let’s do a podcast where we give people an idea of what to expect, where we’re going, what kind of things we’re going to see. My friend Todd Walker, coincidentally has. He’s in Turkey right now. And he said. And he’s been. He travels all over.

He works for the Viking Cruise Lines, doing trips for them and helping to write about them and help people experience them. He sent me a text, and he said, turkey is in his top three places he’s ever been. He’s just super hot on it. He’s like, you are totally going at the exact right time. Because he’s like, people are just starting to learn about it, but there’s so many cool things. He said it’s a trip like nothing has ever experienced before. So, Michael, I’m excited to talk to you about it. And people ask me like, well, why did you pick turkey? And I was like, why not? I have always.

I met a guy 20 years ago and in Paris that was from Turkey, and first of all, he was gorgeous, so let’s just go there. But second of all, he really, like, he just was telling me about where he lived and what Turkey was like and what the food was like. And he talked to me about the spice Trail and kind of how people came in through Istanbul and then crossed over into Italy and into Spain. And it made me feel like, wow, okay. Turkey is this very Mediterranean feeling place with tons of culture, and I’ve always wanted to go there, so I picked it. Michael, why did you allow me to pick Turkey? Knowing that it would be a destination that would be harder to sell for people.

Michael Kenney:

Yeah, I think that’s what’s great. And thanks for having me on, Stephanie. It’s always a blast, you know, to travel with you and with your, your listeners. It just, we’ve built some really great bonds with the people, which has been a fun. So even our latest trip to Sicily. What, what a blast. And great people.

Stephanie:

Yes.

Michael Kenney:

But you going back to why we choose this and with Turkey, and that’s what’s great about you. It’s like you’re willing to try some new areas. And a lot of people are like, well, I’ve heard of Turkey. I don’t know much about it. And I think that’s where we both kind of glammed on. Like, let’s go and let’s have this experience. And we’ve been putting group trips together for 27 years and we have some great partners and some Turkish partners, too, that can really open up the, the eyes. I know several people that have been to, to Istanbul and everyone’s heard of Istanbul, like, oh, it’s a top five city on earth for a lot of people.

And you’re probably wondering, well, why? So I encourage you to kind of jump in, look at our website, do a little research on that. But Turkey is so, so much more than that. I. They have absolutely stunning beaches, their food culture, their spices, the seaside communities, the, the Roman ruins. They have so much in different little pockets. So Turkey offers. And I think that’s what maybe gravitated you and I both to it. Just the diversity and still a little of that wonder, like what’s, what’s really, what’s in Turkey.

And I think, you know, we, we talked about a little earlier before the podcast about some of the places, you know, that are kind of overrun with tourists. And definitely Turkey is not there. It will be at some point. So it’s kind of fun to get on maybe the ground level to, to some of these places and not just Istanbul, because it, it is busy, but some of the other places that we’re going to go from Ephesus to Kabukia or Pamuk. There’s so many different places that are on this trip that you’ve never even heard of. So it’s kind of like, well, I haven’t really heard of that. Go, go look at our website. Go do a little research on the Internet and see what.

It’s so amazing. The Europeans, they know of Turkey really, really well because it’s a, it’s a quick flight and they Absolutely love it. I’m in Europe nine times a year and the folks that I talk with over there, they absolutely love it. So it’s kind of like a discovery trip for Americans. And what’s great about our trip that will, it’s fully guided. We have 31 meals included. We have the inner flight inside, Turkey included. So there’s really no out of pocket expense for that.

So you can really sit back and relax and take in the best of Turkey with our local guides. And there’s just so much and I think that’s what’s going to be kind of fun to go discover. This place in our group is going to be no more than 15 people. It’s a small group experience so you can really relax and enjoy that. And I know folks that maybe, well, what’s a group tour? You know, I think you even mentioned that too for some people. Like, well, what do you do? It’s again, we’ve kind of handled everything. We’ve taken care of the hotels, the buses, the cooking class that we’re going to do. I mean, you might want to touch on that later.

But we’ve taken all of that, these best of experiences and put it in one itinerary so you can sit back and relax and know that you’re going to see the best of Turkey.

Stephanie:

I think explaining my husband Kurt’s sort of transformation is good here. My husband is an independent person. He’s owned his own business, he’s a sailor. He would, he, he has no interest really in group travel. Like when I brought it up to him and that I was going to start leading trips, he was like, why would you want to do that? Why would you want to be with people you don’t even know? Like, he is just anti group travel as a rule. And he came on our first trip, he wanted to come with us when we went to Cambodia and we went to Vietnam. He knew that he would never plan a trip to Asia on his own. So he thought, well, I’ll go along on this group travel and I’ll just suck up the group travel part because I get to go to this cool destination.

Well, what happened is he loved it. He liked group travel. He liked meeting new people. He liked not being the person that had to be in charge of making sure that we got our luggage to the room and that we made it to the right flights and that he had to carry all the stuff and all the itinerary. He kind of liked that he wasn’t responsible for all that. And he liked the food, he liked Meeting the people he liked, not having to be in a city he’d never been in and figure out exactly where we were going to eat every single meal. We had flexibility. Obviously, on these trips, we want it to be your trip.

In our Sicily experience, you mentioned a couple times, like, if this doesn’t feel like something you want to do, then don’t do it. Do something else for the day. We can help you orchestrate other things. He really loved the idea that he didn’t have to do everything. And in fact, when we did our cooking class in Sicily, which was amazing, by the way, we learned to make arancini, which they call arancino. We made a thing called a pinella, which was a chickpea pancake that they eat in a sandwich, which was kind of different. But Kurt didn’t want to do the cooking class. He was like, you know what? I think I’m just gonna go walk around the city.

So him and another friend peeled off and, like, that’s the joy of these trips. We plan everything, but if you’re tired or if you just want a day of rest, you can do that too. We really try to make it so that we know it’s your experience. We’re not as interested in you just being forced to come along on things that you’re not interested in. We’re interested in your experience. We want you to have a good time. So if Kurt Johnson can get turned on to group travel, I feel like, seriously, anyone can.

Michael Kenney:

No, that’s. That’s well said. I would have never guessed that about Kurt initially. You know, and I wouldn’t call him an introvert by any means, but I think we get, you know, a lot of people like that with. With. Kurt. You know, maybe their. Their.

Their husband or their wife drags them on a trip, and they’re like, you know what? This is actually pretty cool, especially for the person that maybe is doing typically all the planning. And it’s stressful. You know, we do all that for you, but you can really, again, sit back and enjoy. You spend a lot of money to go on these trips, and that’s what we want. So we want you to feel like you. You have that. That freedom, too. When we set up our hotels in nice, central locations and safe areas, too, that you can go out and explore, so we encourage you to do that.

But honestly, we feel pretty good that the pace of these trips are designed really well, that you have that flexibility, because we want you. Yes, you’re in a group, even a small group, but we want to make it feel like you’re having these experience with, with a friend or a family member that’s with you too, that you, you feel like you’re, you’re having these little exploring trips, but it’s all kind of put together already for you. But again, we, we have time for you to go exploring, to have these other experiences, which is really, really important. Balance is so important. Over 27 years, I think we’ve really, we focus on that so we know that, that people are comfortable having that free time to explore. But again, having the, the framework of an itinerary with, with experiences. Typically, we might do a city tour in the, in the morning and then have the rest of your day free to have your own exploring. Then maybe for, especially for this trip with the 31 meals that will meet up and have dinner in a place.

And again, they’re all being curated with our local team too, in the area that you’re going to have foods local from the area in great mom PA type of restaurants. So sometimes it’s stressful when you’re trying to figure out where am I going to go eat, what should I do? I want to make sure the dinner is going to be great. We’ve got that taken care of so you can sit back and relax. And again, we know most of you probably have not heard of a lot of these places. Please, we implore you to go and take a look at the itinerary, do a little research, because I guarantee in a few years from now, these are going to be mainstream and you’ll be able to go explore and see these places before they’re overly busy. So take a look at this itinerary.

Stephanie:

I was impressed because when I first was thinking about Turkey, I went on a map and I didn’t realize, like, when I started going to Croatia, I didn’t realize how close Croatia is to Italy. That literally they share a sea and that a lot of Italians use Croatia as their summer vacation spot.

Michael Kenney:

Yeah.

Stephanie:

And I didn’t also realize that Turkey and Italy are very close and that a lot of Europeans, because they’ve got EasyJet there, that’s an Italian airline, they’re going to Turkey like we would be going to Palm Springs. I mean, a lot of Europeans are experiencing Turkey and it’s just not a destination that a lot of Americans are familiar with. But a lot of people are going there and having fun, doing fun things. This. It’s been so fun for me to watch my friend Todd Walker, because he went to Cappadocia, which is a city that we’re going to go to and they have all these fairy houses that are like these stone. They look like dunce caps sort of. They’re these weird structures. And he, like, actually spent the night in one of them.

He did a hot air balloon r there, which is part of our itinerary. If someone wants to add that on, I know Kurt’s going to do that. It’s like he went and he had all this video of it where there’s 140 hot air balloons going up kind of all at once out of this city. It just looks so completely cool. And then the. The huge market. There’s like, the world’s largest market. So all of these trips, I always end up with a group of great women shoppers.

And I’m like, okay, bring an extra bag, ladies, because you’re going to come home with a rug and you’re going to come home with all of these spices. There’s 4,000 stalls in the Grand Market in Istanbul. Do you know that?

Michael Kenney:

Yeah, the Grand Bazaar. I didn’t know exactly how many, but, yeah, it’s massive.

Stephanie:

So just that, like, I love getting into a market and just, like, seeing all the different things, feeling all the different spices. In Sicily, we had an opportunity to go to the market, and afterwards we had our. Our local guide that kind of takes you around and shows you where everything is and gives you a sense of maybe what to look for at the market. And then we split up and Kurt and I, he just wanted to drink beer in the market and kind of experience feeling in the market. So we went and got sandwiches. But a bunch of other people, like, shop till they dropped. Like, they had huge shopping bags full of stuff. So if your jam is shopping, great.

If your jam is just sitting and taking in the culture, great. Like, you can also learn more about a city by spending time with the city guides that are with us. They’re always having lunch with us, and we have a bus driver that we get to know in certain trips. It really just. We just got back from Sicily and we had such a great experience. We had such a great trip. It was probably one of my favorite groups because a lot of the folks had traveled with us before, so we really knew each other, too. It’s group travel is really fun.

I’m just. I don’t know, I’m really jazzed about it, and I’m jazzed about Turkey, and I want people to come. If you could describe Ephesus, because that’s a place that I haven’t been before and you have what is that like?

Michael Kenney:

Yeah, Ephesus, it was, you know, built by the Romans in the time of Christ, so 2,000 years ago. And it’s. You’re walking through. It’s. It’s unbelievable. It’s not like when you’re at the Roman Coliseum or that area around there that’s actually, it feels like it’s in. More in ruins, if you will. But you’re like in this village, this Roman village that you can think of, the Apostles walk, maybe if you’re, you know, religious.

Mary, Jesus’s mother, has walked. And the. Still, the stone streets are there. You know, a lot of the buildings are in ruins, but the library, the, the whole front facade is still there. It’s, it’s unreal. It feels like you’re just being brought back in time. And there’s truly nothing like Ephesus, which is just right outside of the, the village of Kusadasi, or city in Turkey. But it’s, it’s like the.

If, again, if I could have an analogy, like you’re in Rome, but to another level that it’s, it’s much more, I would say intact. Still in ruins, but intact. But this, this, this village that it’s in hibernation. So walking these streets. And we have these local guides as you touched on too, that kind of can bring everything to, to, to life. So, you know, you’re not looking through your, your book and trying to like, well, what is this? You listen to an audio guide or our, our local guide speaking about that. So you’re learning about the history. But Ephesus is, is.

Is unbelievable. And we’re not going to see. There’s other ruins and more Roman sites and throughout this trip, so you’ll really get, you know, a history. I wouldn’t say a deep dive. They touch on it. So you’re not like, oh, this is so boring. But you even said it’s, it’s a trip like this is great for, for shoppers, if you want to shop. I’m not a shopper.

I like to do what Kurt does. Sit down, maybe have a beer and take it all in and do nothing. Just take in the people walking around, the smells. There’s. There’s nothing like it. And again, I think this trip to Turkey really offers a potpourri of different experiences. So if you’re a foodie, if you’re into photography, to culture, to history, this trip really ticks all the boxes. And I guarantee it, you’ll love it.

You’ll love the trip. But then even at the end you. There’s a great chance you’re going to make lifelong friends on, on a trip like this too. So it’s, it really ticks a box of. Of of experiences. So hopefully April is a great time to go to. The temperatures you can expect, you know, low 70s, you know, 50s, 60s at night. So it’s really comfortable.

Not like in the summer when it’s really busy and it’s busier with the Europeans and the temperatures hotter. This April time is a great time to visit for sure.

Stephanie:

Can you talk a little bit about what the food is like? Like, I have an idea, but I don’t really know. Like, is it Mediterranean? Is it like meat and pomegranates and couscous?

Michael Kenney:

Yep, you’re nailing it right now. No, it. It is like that. So I think I encourage again people to. To look online too, to see what some of these are. But you maybe have heard of, you know, baklava or, you know, kebabs, the lamb, the beef, the chicken. They have, you know, the different kebabs, lots of different spices, ganache, as many, you know, like fried dishes too, but then a lot of cooked on open fires. But I would say, I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s comfort food, like German, you know, in having, you know, some of the staples that you might know, but still something that’s not too odd.

It’s probably more closer to home than maybe some of the French food you would see. But you’ll see a lot of lamb, the beef, I said some of the fried foods, lots of, you know, from your Turkish delights and different things like that. So I think even when we’re walking around in the market, you’ll get that. And then we’ll at our dinners have different meals as well that will infuse some of these different experiences. So it won’t be something completely foreign, but it’ll be. It’ll be comfortable enough that I think you’ll enjoy it, but it definitely be a nice array of different experiences with the food.

Stephanie:

I haven’t told you this, but one of the places, and I don’t know where I’m going to do this, but I am going to find. Have you ever been to a hammam or done the spa experience where like, you lay on like hot marble and it’s sort of like a sauna and you get sweaty and then you like, go into a room and they like brush you with salt and scrubby things and like completely clean you. It’s a Muslim tradition and it’s the most amazing thing I’ve ever done. I did this in Athens and I loved it so much. We went three times while we were in Athens.

Michael Kenney:

Wow.

Stephanie:

Find a spa that does this there. I don’t know in what city or where we are, but I know a local guide can help me when we get there.

Michael Kenney:

Yep.

Stephanie:

Both Kurt and I, it was just the most amazing, relaxing experience. Just someone scrubbing you with all these different herbs and salts. And they have weird little brushes that your eyes are closed and. And you can’t even. Like. One of them was this big, puffy, like, pillow feeling that was running across the top of your body. It was so weird, but so great.

Michael Kenney:

Yeah, I haven’t done it. I’ve seen them. I’ve done, like, the part that we’re just going in, like, in the. In the sauna or the steam bath. That’s it. I haven’t had the full rub down yet. Maybe on this Turkish.

Stephanie:

We’re going to do it. Yeah, it’s great. I’ll do it.

Michael Kenney:

No, it’ll be fun, but no, it’s very popular over there. The Turkish amans. To do that. So there definitely will be that opportunity. I will. I’ll give it a shot. You know, it’ll be interesting to have someone scrub me down with salts. But, hey, life’s about to have any experiences and.

And I’m. And I’m. I’m for it, but I’m glad you enjoyed that. But, yes, they definitely have that. And you’ll have that opportunity if you want again. It’s. Yeah, it’s always. It’s.

Stephanie:

I’m not gonna make anyone go get naked and do this, but if you want to get naked and do this, I’m telling you, it’s amazing. And they probably actually. They wear bathing suits because they’re pretty modest. Or they’ll have, like, a separate women’s area and a separate men’s area. When we did it in Athens, it was men and women together, and we wore bathing suits. And then when you got into the private room, you could take your bathing suit off. And they were very modest and helpful, but.

Michael Kenney:

Yeah. So being comfortable. Yeah, no, that’s. That’s great. Well, that’ll be. Maybe we’ll just get a whole group and do that to get so great.

Stephanie:

Yeah, it’s just like. It was one of the best things I’ve ever done. And I. I like spas and massage, and I’ve done a lot of weird things like that. This was, like, just amazing. Well, I’m excited. I hope that people will join us. The way it works is you can find all the itinerary on defined destinations website.

We’ll link that in the show notes here you can see each particular day and what city you’ll be in and what you’ll be doing and what’s included. I would imagine in most of these breakfast is included because that’s typically a sort of European thing to do. And then as he’s. As Michael said, a lot of the meals are included. I do think when you’re breaking open a new destination, it’s important to kind of give people a sense of what they’re going to be experiencing. And food is obviously a big part of that. And food is a big part of my journey on this trip. Turkish delights, if you’ve never had them, they’re like this beautiful little jelly.

Turkish coffee is very different. It’s a much more intense coffee experience. So if you’re a coffee drinker, you’ll learn a lot. Also, olive oil is very much present in Turkey. Like again, I keep comparing it to Italy, but it is right across the water. So there’s a lot of different olive oils that are used in Turkey, a lot of different spices. We’re going to have fun. So the way this works is you can go online, you can put your deposit down and full payment is due I think in January for this trip.

You can book your own travel if you want to, meaning get your airfare to get to where we’re going to meet for the trip. Or you can use Michael’s got a service that can help you book all your airfare. I personally like to control my airfare because I like to have the miles and I like to know exactly how I’m going to set things up on my itinerary. Kurt and I also like to get there like a day or two in advance just to get acclimated a little bit before the rest of you guys come. So that I’m not super jet lagged. I’m on fire by the time you arrive. And yeah, we do. There’s going to be a lot of beautiful wine, I’m assuming too, because that’s something that there’s a great grape destination there.

You don’t know about Turkish wines yet, but you will. They, they exist. There’s actually quite a lot of them. Yeah. And that’s how it works. Michael, you’ve got a special offer just to get people that may be on the fence a little bit. Yeah.

Michael Kenney:

Well, we’re excited. The trip again is April 9th through the 20th. And again, go online, take it just take a look at the website, look at some of the pictures. You’ll absolutely love it. And then even all the things that we’ve talked about that aren’t even mentioned in the itinerary, there’s so many fun things. But if you’re listening to this and you’re new to register, you’ll get $200 off per person if you register for the trip. Final payment is January 1st, so just think about that. So this would be a great.

A great gift for a loved one. Hey, let’s. We’re going to go to Turkey. And I hear more and more people are. They want to have a travel experience rather than having tangible things about having experiences, especially with ones you love. So hopefully this trip to Turkey, if you want to try something new and have just an amazing experience about a place you maybe haven’t heard too much about, I think you’ll absolutely love it. So just go to defined destinations.com, like Stephanie said. She’ll have the link there, too.

Against April 9th through the 20th. You can register right there. If you need help with airfare, we’re happy to do that. So we make it pretty easy for you on that end. So we’re gonna. We’re gonna have a blast with a great group of people and hopefully, you know, you’ll want to join this small group of no more than 15 people.

Stephanie:

Is this the time that we tell people that are listening to maybe stay tuned. I mean, we do have a pretty epic October trip planned.

Michael Kenney:

Yeah, no, I mean, go for it. We don’t have the. All the dates totally confirmed, but we’re. Yeah, go ahead.

Stephanie:

Well, we’re working on one of the trips. So I have taken people to Spain, I’ve taken people to Croatia, I’ve taken people to Cambodia, Thailand, and now Turkey. And the Croatia trip was really magical and people loved it. And I have a huge fondness for Croatia. Obviously, I’ve been there a lot, and there were a lot of people that wanted to go on that trip that didn’t get the opportunity because it’s a luxury experience. It’s a luxury yacht. It’s small rooms or not small rooms. It’s a small ship with actually, the rooms were quite big for a boat.

And so we had so many people that wanted to do that itinerary again. Michael said, hey, how about we do it again? But I’ll add a couple of new things so that it’s a new experience for you too, Stephanie, because there is. I’ve never been to Zagreb, which seems probably surprising since I’ve been to Croatia so many times and there’s a bunch of these finger lakes. What do they call those? Is it the plastic lakes?

Michael Kenney:

Yeah, the Plaviche Lakes National Park. Yep.

Stephanie:

The national parks in Croatia are legendary. If you. I mean Mijet has one of the most beautiful national parks on it with a monastery in the middle of this lake. So we are going to be taking another small group. It’ll be smallish. I think we had 28 on our last.

Michael Kenney:

Yeah, enough to fill the boat. And the boat only can sleep like 34. So it’s a small experience on that. But yeah, I’m excited to go back to that again. That’s been one of our hot sellers, our Croatia trip. So with the Zagreb and the Blevice lakes and then our seven night cruise, the Croatia trip will be great. So maybe you want to do two trips. Our beautiful Turkey trip in the spring and then come October we’ll have this amazing trip to, to Croatia.

So go out and have experiences and hopefully you want to join us. I think you’ll find great value, great meals just. And great people that to travel with.

Stephanie:

And if you’re listening and you want to explore Michael’s other trips because he takes trips with other people, not just me. And also he just guides trips himself. Just tell him that you’re a friend of Stephanie’s dish so that he knows that you came from my referral. But just like, yeah, if you want to sign up for a Christmas market or you’re interested in heading to the Amalfi coast, traveling with defined destinations is a really great opportunity. They do it extremely well. I have traveled a lot and so I’ve had some good experiences and some not so good experiences. So I know that when you travel with Michael, you’re in good hands. I’m still just missing our guide Peter, who was with us on our last Sicilian trip, who turns out has been your friend for like 25 years.

I just miss him. He’s such a character. I loved him so much.

Michael Kenney:

Yeah. And that’s great. Yeah. Peter’s a good friend of mine for. He’s our Austrian guy, but he’s. He’s got family in, in Italy and does some of our, our Central European trips. But again, like you said it too, it’s, it’s. Again, it’s more than just the sights.

You’re building relationships even if you’re not even looking for that. But it’s fun to recall and all the good people you’ve met and the fun experiences you’ve had along the way. I love what I do, and hopefully it shows in our trips. It’s all about having a great experience with great people, so encourage you. And you’ve been such a great part of the defined destinations family. Thank you, Stephanie.

Stephanie:

I love it.

Michael Kenney:

Looking forward to more.

Stephanie:

If I didn’t, people know I would have kicked you to the curb long ago. And you even have got. You’ve even converted Kurt.

Michael Kenney:

So, I mean, yeah, that’s great. So, yeah, it’s about. About having fun and that’s what we do. And we’d love to have you on, on any of our trips.

Stephanie:

Yeah. All right, you guys. So I’ll put all that information that you need in the links below. We are going to Turkey and I hope you come. That’s all I can say because I’m gonna probably be talking about it non stop because I’m so excited.

Michael Kenney:

That’s great.

Stephanie:

I’m.

Michael Kenney:

I’m looking forward to it. Thanks again, Steph.

Stephanie:

Thanks, Michael. Okay, bye. Bye.

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