Dot to Dot

Episode Notes

Together, Frank and Fiona explore:

– How music, neuroscience, and ancient wisdom converge to unlock human potential
– Why we confuse identity with performance and what it costs us
– The difference between peak performance and living a fully human life
– What Frank learned from burnout, breakdowns, and building himself back up
– The critical role of energy, movement, and emotional rhythm in daily life
– Why community is more powerful than we realize and more essential than ever
– The surprising truth about purpose (hint: it’s not what you do it’s who you are while doing it)
– How to reframe technology as a tool for humanity, not a substitute for it
– The overlooked magic of music — not as entertainment, but as medicine, memory, and emotional architecture

This episode is about thriving. Not by doing more, but by remembering who you are, how you connect, and what it means to be fully alive.

To learn more about Frank go to:
🔗 Frank’s work and writing: www.frankfitzpatrick.com
📖 Amplified: Unleash Your Potential Through the Power of Music
🎵 Explore Amplified and upcoming work on the future of music, AI, and human flourishing

For more from Fiona: www.fionamurden.com

For Fiona's substack go to: https://substack.com/@fionamurden

Frank Fitzpatrick is a Grammy-nominated music producer, best-selling author, filmmaker, and founder of Amplified and EarthTones. He is a global leader in using music and neuroscience to transform well-being, performance, and human connection across industries. Frank’s mission is simple but profound: help humanity flourish and co-create a ripple effect for good.

For more on Fiona visit www.fionamurden.com 

Together, Aoife and Fiona explore:

– How anticipatory stress affects cardiovascular, immune and cellular function, including signs of accelerated aging
– Why the brain can’t always tell the difference between real danger and imagined fear and how the body pays the price
– The often-overlooked power of social connection, even in fleeting micro-moments
– How visualisation, when used intentionally, can help the body step out of threat mode
– What Aoife’s research into a PTSD app and psychedelic therapy is revealing about trauma, healing, and personalisation

This is a conversation about stress but also about imagination, memory, connection, and the biology of feeling safe.

For more from Fiona visit www.fionamurden.com

Aoife's research can be found here UCSF Profiles

Aoife is Associate Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences and Director of THRIVE Lab at the University of California, San Francisco and San Francisco Veterans Affairs Health Care System. Dedicated to uncovering the mechanisms by which psychological stress causes ill health and developing new treatments for stress-related health conditions.

Here are key takeaways from the conversation:

1. Small social interactions matter. Even brief, friendly interactions can positively impact your physiological stress response.

2. Practice resilience during calm periods:

• Build social relationships
• Engage in physical activity
• Try meditation and mindfulness
• Practice visualization techniques
• Learn breathing exercises

3. Start small with physical activity. If a full workout seems overwhelming, just start by moving a little - standing up, walking for a minute, or doing a short activity.

4. Recognize that stress is inevitable, but you can manage your response:

• Distinguish between threat and challenge perceptions
• Practice constraining anticipatory stress through visualization (see Fiona's book Defining You for more on how to do visualisation)
• Understand that your body responds similarly to imagined and real stressors

5. Prioritize physiological health to support psychological interventions:

• Exercise can help improve mental health
• Good physical health supports learning and memory
• Small, consistent actions can build resilience

6. Be compassionate with yourself and others:

• Understand that mental health symptoms are normal
• Small acts of kindness can significantly impact someone's stress response
• Helping others can also benefit your own mental health

For more on Fiona visit www.fionamurden.com 

Christian reveals a game-changing insight most people overlook: every time we listen, we bring an intention. Maybe to fix something. Maybe to understand. Maybe just to connect. But unless our intention matches what the other person actually needs, we miss the moment.
We can be kind, empathetic - and still leave them feeling unheard.

Drawing from his book (written with psychologist Robert Biswas-Diener), Christian introduces six distinct listening intentions - learning, understanding, solving, appreciating, connecting, influencing - and shows how choosing the right one can transform relationships, trust, and connection.

This isn’t just theory. Fiona and Christian share honest stories about when they got it wrong - and what it taught them about emotional intelligence, ego, and psychological safety. From leaders in the workplace to partners at home to fleeting interactions with strangers, this episode makes a bold claim:

Radical listening - when done with the right intention - is one of the most powerful relational tools we have.
And one of the most underused.

Whether you’re leading a team, raising a family, or just trying to build better connections in a noisy world, this conversation offers something rare:

A framework for listening that doesn’t just improve communication - it changes the way we are with others.

For more from Fiona go to:

www.fionamurden.com

Christian's book is out March 25 2025 

For more from Christian go to 

www.coachonmotorcycle.com

Practical Take-Aways from the Podcast on Radical Listening:

Matching Listening Intentions:

Before conversations, pause and consider: What does the other person want from this interaction?

Acknowledgement Techniques:

• Look for strengths in the other person
• Highlight things you admire about them

Quieting Inner Dialogue:

• Notice internal thoughts that might distract from listening
• Focus fully on the other person
• Minimize interrupting or thinking about your response

Practical Listening Experiments

• Listen to appreciate someone
• Ask "How can I be most helpful in this conversation?"
• Track the impact: How good did the interaction feel? (1-10 scale)

Connection Strategies

• Genuinely ask "How are you?" in everyday interactions
• Look people in the eye
• Show real interest in their responses
• Be open and curious
• Relationship Investment
• Practice listening as a way of building future relationship networks
• Invest time in quality interactions

For more on Fiona visit www.fionamurden.com 

The Story Behind the Book

• Jenny explains how her Instagram community sparked the writing of Permission to Come Home.
• The book is a call to reclaim mental health, dismantle shame, and give ourselves permission—to question, feel, rage, play, and heal.

Cultural Nuance in Mental Health Care

• Why standard psychological approaches often fail Asian American clients.
• The importance of cultural humility, not just cultural competence, in therapy.
• How mental health systems must be decolonized to truly support diverse communities.

A Journey of Resilience and Defiance

• Jenny shares her path to becoming a clinical psychologist, including moments of discouragement—and the mentors who made all the difference.
• The role of persistence, privilege, and resilience in navigating academic and professional barriers.

The 10 Permissions We All Need

• Fiona highlights the structure of the book: ten chapters that grant “permission” to explore different aspects of mental health and identity.
• Jenny reflects on the vulnerability required to write the book—and why modeling that vulnerability matters.

Intergenerational Trauma & Healing

• A poignant story from Jenny’s mother’s childhood—and how those wounds are passed down, often unconsciously.
• The power of breaking cycles and choosing new, more loving ways of relating across generations.

Why Play Matters—Especially in Adulthood

• Jenny and Fiona explore how cultural dynamics often suppress play in favor of achievement.
• Play as a form of fuel, joy, and self-connection—especially for those in midlife.

Grief, Migration, and Identity

• The hidden grief of migration and the quiet loss of language, heritage, and belonging.
• Jenny speaks movingly about the emotional complexity of existing between two cultures—and the importance of honouring that experience.

Redefining Home

• What does it mean to truly come home to yourself?
• Jenny introduces her four core elements of “home”: safety, belonging, authenticity, and compassion—and how we can cultivate these in our relationships and communities.

This episode is a heartfelt, illuminating conversation that touches on themes many of us carry but often don’t have words for. Whether you’re exploring your own identity or supporting others on their journey, Jenny’s insights offer a gentle but powerful guide.

• Practice Play: Integrate play into your daily life as a source of energy and sustainability, not just as a reward after hard work. Start with small activities that bring you joy and help you recharge.
• Embrace Vulnerability: Be willing to share your authentic experiences and emotions. This can help break cycles of shame and silence, especially around mental health.
• Reflect on Cultural Identity: Take time to explore your family history, understand intergenerational experiences, and appreciate the complexity of your cultural background.
• Create Conditions of Home: Cultivate safety, belonging, authenticity, and compassion in your relationships and personal spaces.
• Challenge Achievement-Based Self-Worth: Recognize your value beyond professional achievements. Practice slowing down and tolerating the discomfort of being less productive.
• Practice Cultural Humility: Approach different experiences and perspectives with openness, listening, and a willingness to learn.
• Break Negative Cycles: Consciously choose to parent, communicate, and interact differently from generational patterns that may have been harmful.
• Prioritize Mental Health: Seek support that understands your unique cultural context and validates your experiences.

These takeaways can help individuals develop more compassionate, balanced, and fulfilling lives across various cultural backgrounds.

• Website: www.asianformentalhealth.com
• Instagram: @asiansformentalhealth
• Book: Permission to Come Home — available wherever books are sold.

• Website: www.fionamurden.com
• Instagram: @fionamurden
• LinkedIn: Fiona Murden
• Books: Defining You and Mirror Thinking

If this episode resonated with you, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, or sharing it with someone who might benefit from the conversation.

See you next time on Dot to Dot, where we continue to explore the patterns, insights, and human stories that connect us.

For more on Fiona visit www.fionamurden.com 

We talk about his fascinating background growing up in Singapore with the expectations that loomed over him. He shares a point where he felt he had failed, the shame that he experienced and the reflection that ensued in what some may consider unusual circumstances – in the jungle during 2 years military service. Nabil’s creativity started early in life but was further ignited by time spent at London College of Fashion, followed by roles held with three globally iconic brands – Urban Outfitters, Selfridges and most recently (at the tender age of 28) the position at Soho House. 

Nabil is hungry for growth, deeply committed to continually stretching himself and explains in simple terms how earlier on in life a lack of role-models while pursuing the creative route was hard… 

“I'm the guy who would, who would stay back sewing things or painting or whatever it might be. It was always a creative pursuit. It was always about expression. Definitely not football and definitely not playing with the lego set. That was My brother. And I guess at that point, I thought, Okay, this is what being a creative means, but I didn't have role models, then per se, to say, Oh, this is a career path, I couldn't make a living out of this. And Singapore back then was the be all and end all for me. I hadn't really travelled elsewhere, to say oh, you could be a creative director, whatever that means. So, at 15, you, you have a feeling, and you try to manifest as best as possible by eliminating options. And I think that's the hardest thing to do.”

But also, how having role-models as an adult enables him to craft his career with even more care. 

“One of the benefits of having role models in your career is that you get to reverse engineer your way? Checking is it OK? If you have 50 years of work life - how do you want to make the most of that time? How can you pace yourself? Most importantly, so that you are peaking at absolutely the right time, when you have the most to give.” 

If you are curious about who you are, your brain and the role-models and influences in your life then you may enjoy my most recent book Mirror Thinking – How Role Models Make Us Human. 

https://bit.ly/MirrThink

For more from me go to: 

https://fionamurden.com

For more on Fiona visit www.fionamurden.com

For more on Fiona visit www.fionamurden.com 

Jacob Nordby joins me to discuss his personal journey from feeling trapped in an outwardly successful entrepreneurial career to finding fulfillment through creativity and self-discovery. He reflects on how stepping back from societal definitions of success allowed him to reconnect with what truly mattered - expressing himself and helping others do the same.

We dive into:

• Creativity as a Life Force: How creativity is not limited to art or traditional “creative” work - it’s about feeling alive and expressing who you are, whether that’s through painting, sports, problem-solving, or how you show up in everyday life.
• Making Room for Creativity: The importance of carving out time for creative activities - even if they’re not your primary job - and how this can bring more energy and joy into every area of your life.
• What Blocks Creativity: Jacob explains the three biggest barriers that often shut down our creativity:
• Reconnecting with Your Creative Self: Why self-discovery, self-acceptance, and self-expression are key to breaking through these blocks - and how creativity often requires us to re-learn how to trust ourselves.
• A Balanced Approach: Jacob talks about integrating both left and right brain thinking - combining structure and logic with freedom and imagination - to nurture creativity in all aspects of life.

Jacob also shares insights from his book, The Creative Cure, which offers practical tools and exercises to help readers reconnect with their inner creative selves and find greater freedom and fulfillment.

If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, and follow the podcast—it helps others discover the show!

Tips to Take Away:

To apply the concept of "creating in the moment" to your daily life and work: 

• Be present and attentive to the current moment. Notice your senses, your thoughts, your feelings. Don't get caught up in the past or future.
• Look for opportunities to create something, even if small - a thoughtful email, a doodle, a new recipe, an engaging conversation. Focus on the process of creating, not just the end result.
• Approach tasks and challenges with a mindset of curiosity and exploration, rather than just trying to check things off a to-do list. See each moment as a chance to bring your creativity to bear.
• Take short breaks to reset and reconnect with your inner sense of aliveness and creativity. Even a few minutes of deep breathing or freewriting can help you tap into that energy.
• Experiment and play. Don't get attached to perfection. Allow your creations to be imperfect and evolving.

The key is to shift from seeing creativity as something you produce to a way of being present and engaged in each moment. This can help you feel more alive and fulfilled in both your work and personal life.

Resources:

• The Creative Cure by Jacob Nordby
• Find Jacob Norby at www.jacobnorby.com
• Follow Jacob Nordby: Facebook or Instagram @jacobnordby

For more on Fiona visit www.fionamurden.com 

Fiona is joined by friend, sports psychologist Lou Jones on this episode. They talk to Russ about how Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) can reach aspects of trauma that are otherwise so hard to treat. Russ explains how when people have experienced trauma and it is deeply held it’s far more difficult to reach and heal through words. Although it’s not impossible, it takes a lot longer and a match with the right therapist. While words can create pain, we don’t experience pain in words. The ACT approach to trauma goes first to the body and emotions which enables a much quicker recovery leading to what is known as Post Traumatic Growth. 

Links to Russ's books we refer to:

The Happiness Trap: Stop Struggling, Start Living by Russ Harris

Trauma Focussed ACT A Practitioner's Guide to Working with Mind, Body, and Emotion Using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

For more from us follow these links: 

If you are curious about who you are, your brain and the influences in your life then please dip into my more recent book Mirror Thinking – How Role Models Make Us Human. 

My book Defining You - How to Build Your Unique Personal Profile and Unlock Your True Potential can be found at via the link and in all good book stores.

Connect with us/ask us any questions on:

Instagram:www.instagram.com/fiona_murden

Twitter:https://twitter.com/fionamurden

Facebook:https://facebook.com/fionamurden

Or for Lou

Instagram:www.instagram.com/loupylou78

Twitter:https://twitter.com/louisejones78

For more on Fiona visit www.fionamurden.com 

Referred to: 

Humankind by Rutger Bergman

https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/rutger-bregman/humankind/9780316418553/?lens=little-brown

Bill Burr on People Online Commenting on the LA Fires 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7wcU4W4tDE

For more on Fiona visit www.fionamurden.com 

Andrew explains the need for officers to know themselves really well, to know how to optimise their own recovery which is in part something helped through profiling and in part a process of self-discovery. In light of this Fiona and Andrew explore psychological profiling and how important it is to fit the right personality to the right operations and delve into the use of MBTI (Myers Briggs Type Indicator) as a tool used to help every officer in the CIA understand themselves. Andrew explains his view of the world as a former spy, that ‘every human being you meet is either a source or some kind of support asset or some kind of network capability.’ And they touch on various other topics such as the elite leader, elite surgeon, elite athlete or elite in any field who is perhaps less used to failure than the average joe, or more able to plough on in spite of failure. Andrew shares his view of this, that "their failure is not in their skill. Their failure is seen in the rate of alcohol abuse, that they have substance abuse, the divorce rates, the lack of sleep, the sociopathic tendencies, the psychopathic tendencies."

Andrew describes himself as an improvement junkie. He’s also a former covert CIA intelligence officer, US Air Force combat veteran, and Fortune 10 corporate advisor. He surrounds himself with knowledge, experiences, and people who help him grow and he look for opportunities to share what he’s learnt with others. 

For more from Fiona, her books, free resources and more go to www.fionamurden.com 

For more on Fiona visit www.fionamurden.com 

Fiona and Robert explore the importance of intellectual curiosity, self-understanding, and the trade-offs between traditional careers and entrepreneurial pursuits. They delve into the concept of hospitality, its impact on life satisfaction, and discuss practical advice for increasing happiness and emotional resilience. Robert introduces his research on hospitality, examining its role in well-being and social trust across cultures. The conversation also covers the complex relationship between happiness and economic context, offering practical advice for increasing life satisfaction and emotional agility. Finally, they highlight the importance of connection and belonging for well-being and the need to teach social and emotional skills in schools and workplaces.

Dr Biswas-Diener is a leading authority on strengths, culture, courage, hospitality and happiness. His extensive research, has taken him to places like Greenland, India, and Kenya and resulted in over over 60 peer-reviewed academic articles and seven books, including The Upside of Your Dark Side. His expertise in cross-cultural psychology and well-being policy, have led to him contributing regularly to the Global Council for Happiness and Wellbeing. His work has also made a lasting impact on the coaching profession. When he’s not researching, he enjoys rock climbing and drawing, and lives in Portland, Oregon with his wife.

For more from Fiona go to:

www.fionamurden.com

For more from Dr. Biswas Diener go to: 

www.robertdiener.com 

For more on Fiona visit www.fionamurden.com