ECFA Podcast

What kind of future are we building for the leaders who come after us?

That future starts with how we care for the people leading today.

In Part 3 of What We’re Building, Michael Martin sits down with Jake Lapp to talk about the real pressures ministry leaders carry, why caring for their spiritual and personal well-being matters to Gospel witness, and the unique responsibility boards have to help leaders thrive.

For Jake, the conversation is deeply personal. His own son is considering a call to ministry, and Jake has seen enough of the pain leaders can carry to know that something needs to change. What begins as concern for today’s leaders becomes a conviction about what kind of ministry culture we want the next generation to inherit.

Michael and Jake discuss:

• Why burnout should not be treated as an inevitable cost of ministry
• How the health of a leader affects families, ministries, communities, and trust
• Why boards need to move beyond simply asking, “How are you doing?”
• How curiosity and meaningful accountability can help boards recognize pressure before it becomes crisis
• Why Christ-centered governance sometimes means helping leaders slow down
• How ECFA’s Excellence for Leader Care Standard is helping ministries put intentional care into practice

The Excellence for Leader Care Standard takes effect January 1, 2027, but many ministries are already beginning the work.

Caring for leaders is not only about sustaining today's ministry but also about building a healthier future for those who will lead tomorrow.

Learn more about ECFA Leader Care:

https://www.ecfa.org/LeaderCare

Explore resources on the Excellence for Leader Care Standard and practical tools to help ministries and boards develop meaningful leader care practices.

Excellence for Leader Care Standard

Effective January 1, 2027, the standard calls ECFA-accredited organizations to develop an annual care plan for the organization’s top leader in collaboration with the leader and board.

Scripture Referenced

• Psalm 78:72 - David shepherded with integrity of heart and led with skillful hands.
• 2 Corinthians 8:20–21 - A reminder of the importance of taking pains to do what is right not only before God, but also before others.

Subscribe to The ECFA Podcast for more conversations about trustworthy leadership, accountability, and strengthening Christ-centered churches and ministries.

Every ministry has a different assignment, but we are all working toward the same Kingdom mission.

Churches and ministries often serve different communities, meet distinct needs, and carry out their work in unique ways. Yet comparison can quietly turn those differences into competition, shifting our focus from faithfulness to performance.

That raises an important question: What might ministry look like if we stopped measuring ourselves against one another and started seeing each other as fellow laborers in the same work?

ECFA President and CEO Michael Martin and Vice President of Public Affairs Aaron Mercer unpack what happens when accountability is used to build ministries up rather than stack them against each other. Their conversation moves beyond ratings and rankings into something deeper: unity, integrity, and the kind of witness we create when ministries choose to see one another as fellow laborers rather than competitors.

They also explore how ECFA’s accreditation model reflects that conviction. The goal is not to declare one ministry more valuable, effective, or worthy than another. It is to help organizations pursue accountability and faithful stewardship within the unique calling God has given them.

For ministry leaders, donors, and anyone serving in the nonprofit or church space, this conversation is a reminder that we are not rivals. We are part of the same body, serving the same Kingdom, and pursuing the same ultimate mission, even when the work God has placed before us looks very different.

About Aaron Mercer

Aaron Mercer serves as Vice President of Public Affairs at ECFA, where he helps develop resources that support ECFA members in meeting the Seven Standards of Responsible Stewardship. He also monitors public policy developments in Washington, D.C., particularly issues affecting churches, ministries, charitable giving, and tax policy.

Aaron joined the ECFA team in 2023 after experience working on Capitol Hill, with nonprofit organizations, and in the local church. In his role, he serves as a connection point between ECFA members and the broader public policy and ministry landscape.

Key Takeaways

• Your calling is not a competition. Ministries may serve in different ways, but we are fellow laborers working toward the same Kingdom mission.
• Faithfulness matters more than comparison. Measuring yourself against another ministry can shift the focus from obedience to performance.
• Don’t let the algorithm become the mission. Ratings, rankings, and external metrics can be useful, but they should never determine what God has called your ministry to pursue.
• Accountability should build ministries up. ECFA’s accreditation model is designed to strengthen integrity without declaring one ministry more valuable than another.
• Donors still need discernment. Accreditation provides meaningful assurance, but it does not replace prayerful decisions about where to give.
• Unity strengthens our witness. How ministries treat one another communicates something important to the watching world.
• Integrity requires ongoing accountability. ECFA accreditation reflects a continuing commitment, not a one-time approval.
• Don’t just display the ECFA seal, explain what it means. Help donors and your community understand why your commitment to accountability and integrity matters.

Additional Resources

ECFA Membership: ECFA.org/join
ECFA Knowledge Center: Resources related to ECFA’s standards and ministry best practices
ECFA Seven Standards of Responsible Stewardship
John 17:20–23: Jesus’ prayer for unity among believers
2 Corinthians 8:20-21: Biblical principles of accountability and doing what is right before God and others

Long before Michael Martin became President and CEO of ECFA, he experienced something that changed the way he thought about trust, stewardship, and the health of Christian ministries.

In this special bonus episode, Michael shares the personal story behind his passion, including a season when the Christian university he attended faced serious financial and governance challenges. What happened left a lasting impression on him and helped shape the work he would eventually dedicate his life to.

Michael and Ryan Gordon also explore why ministry drift is often subtle, why fear and pride can keep leaders from inviting accountability, and why even strong organizations need safeguards.

This conversation goes beyond policies, financial statements, and governance structures. It gets to the heart of what accountability protects: trust, credibility, donor confidence, healthy leadership, and ultimately the Gospel witness.

If you’re a leader, pastor, board member, executive, or donor, this episode offers a practical and hopeful look at why accountability matters before a crisis ever happens.

In this episode:

• The experience that made accountability deeply personal for Michael
 • Why organizational drift usually happens slowly
 • The connection between accountability, credibility, and trust
 • Why accountability is not the same as perfection
 • How fear and pride can make ministries resistant to outside accountability
 • Why safeguards help protect leaders and organizations
 • What Michael means when he says “accountability accelerates the Gospel”
 • Why accountability can be redemptive, not punitive

Additional Resources

ECFA.org

2 Corinthians 8:20–21: “For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.”

How Leaders Lose Their Way: Buy the Book or Listen to our interview with Peter

Why is it so hard for leaders to admit they need care?

In this bonus episode of Behind the Seal, Mindy Caliguire returns to explore the internal resistance so many leaders face when it comes to their own health. Joined by ECFA President Michael Martin, this conversation moves beyond theory and into the real-life tension leaders experience every day.

From the hidden cost of constant output to the surprising discomfort of rest, Mindy and Michael unpack why leaders often avoid what they need most, and what happens when they finally choose to face it.

You’ll also hear:

• Why self-awareness is the first and hardest step
• What leaders discover when they stop “powering through”
• The unexpected reality of sabbatical (it’s not always what you think)
• Why it’s never too late for God to meet you — even in burnout

If you’ve ever felt stretched, exhausted, or unsure how to slow down, this conversation will meet you right where you are.

About Mindy Caliguire:

Mindy Caliguire is the founder of Soul Care, a ministry dedicated to helping leaders cultivate a healthy soul. With decades of experience in spiritual formation and leadership development, Mindy has guided countless leaders through seasons of burnout, renewal, and long-term sustainability.

Her work equips individuals and organizations to integrate rhythms of rest, reflection, and relational support into everyday leadership so they can flourish for the long haul.

Key Takeaways:

• Leaders often struggle to admit they need care, even when the signs are clear.
• Self-awareness is the starting point. You can’t address what you won’t acknowledge.
• Leaders have countless ways to avoid their struggles. Busyness often masks deeper needs.
• “Powering through” comes at a cost. Eventually, the system runs dry.
• Sabbatical isn’t about breakthroughs — it’s about rest and letting the ground lie fallow.
• The most meaningful transformation often happens in ordinary moments with God.
• Leader care fuels mission effectiveness. It’s not separate from impact, it sustains it.
• It’s never too late to begin. Even crisis moments can become turning points.

Additional Resources:

• ECFA Leader Care Resources
• Soul Care by Mindy Caliguire
• Spiritual direction & coaching resources

Call to Action:

If this episode resonated with you, take a next step:

• Share this with a leader who might be quietly struggling
• Subscribe for more conversations on healthy leadership
• Reflect honestly: Where am I avoiding the care I need?

Too many leaders assume trust should be unconditional — but Scripture tells a different story.

In this season finale of Behind the Seal, bestselling author and Proverbs 31 Ministries president Lysa TerKeurst reveals why unconditional trust is not only unbiblical, but unsafe — and how to rebuild trust with wisdom, boundaries, and Spirit-led discernment.

Lysa unpacks the difference between blind trust and wise trust, why forgiveness is ultimately about your freedom, and how to discern between a triggered fear and a legitimate red flag. She also shares from her own journey through heartbreak, healing, and surrender — and what it truly looks like to walk forward without becoming hardened, bitter, or closed off.

If you’ve ever been hurt, betrayed, or left wondering if trust is even possible again — in ministry, leadership, or life — this episode will meet you right where you are.

About Lysa TerKeurst

Lysa TerKeurst is president and chief visionary officer of Proverbs 31 Ministries and the author of eight New York Times bestsellers, including I Want to Trust You, but I Don’t, Good Boundaries and Goodbyes, Forgiving What You Can’t Forget, and It’s Not Supposed to Be This Way. She enjoys life with her husband Chaz and her kids and grandkids. Connect with her at www.LysaTerKeurst.com
or on social media @LysaTerKeurst.

Additional Resources

·       I Want to Trust You, but I Don’t – Lysa TerKeurst

·       Forgiving What You Can’t Forget – Lysa TerKeurst

·       Good Boundaries and Goodbyes – Lysa TerKeurst

·       Therapy & Theology Podcast with Lysa TerKeurst, Dr. Joel Muddamalle & Jim Cress

·       American Association of Christian Counselors (AACC) – for counseling referrals

·       ECFA.org/LeaderCare – Resources for healthy, trustworthy leadership

·       Proverbs 31 Ministries

If this conversation encouraged you, share it with someone navigating hurt, healing, or rebuilding trust.

💬 Comment below: What part of Lysa’s wisdom on trust or forgiveness resonated with you most?

🎧 And don’t forget to like, share, and subscribe for more conversations on healthy leadership, emotional integrity, and stewarding influence with wisdom.

Most leaders push past their own emotions without ever slowing down long enough to ask, “What’s happening in my soul?” In this episode of Behind the Seal, Bill & Kristi Gaultiere—founders of Soul Shepherding and authors of Deeply Loved—share how empathy isn’t weakness; it’s oxygen for the soul.

In a conversation packed with insight and vulnerability, they unpack why emotions matter to God, how Jesus models empathy, and why healthy leaders must learn to receive empathy—not just give it. From spiritual formation to burnout prevention and the “4 A’s of Empathy,” this episode gives leaders permission to breathe again.

If you’ve ever felt pressure to be strong, keep moving, or “power through,” this conversation will meet you right where you are—and remind you that you are deeply loved by God.

About Bill & Kristi Gaultiere

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere are the co-founders of Soul Shepherding, a ministry dedicated to helping pastors, missionaries, and Christian leaders thrive in emotional and spiritual health. Together they lead the Soul Shepherding Institute, train spiritual directors and coaches, and host the Soul Talks podcast.
 

Bill is a psychologist and spiritual director; Kristi is a psychotherapist, spiritual director, and executive leader with a passion for emotional intelligence in Christian leadership. Their newest book, Deeply Loved, guides readers into experiencing Jesus’ empathy through Scripture, prayer, and community.

Their ministry has helped thousands of leaders learn to rest in Jesus’ easy yoke, receive God’s grace in deeper ways, and lead from a whole, healthy soul.

Additional Resources

·       ECFA.org/LeaderCare

·       Learn more about Soul Shepherding

·       Deeply Loved by Bill & Kristi Gaultiere

·       Soul Talks Podcast

·       Soul Shepherding Institute Retreats

·       Find a Soul Shepherding spiritual director or coach

If this conversation encouraged you, share it with a leader who needs a reminder that their soul matters.

💬 Comment below: Which of the 4 A’s of Empathy do you most want to grow in?

🎧 And don’t forget to like, share, and subscribe for more conversations on healthy leadership, emotional integrity, and caring for the souls of those who serve.

Timestamps

00:00 – Intro
01:21 – Michael welcomes Bill & Kristi
05:57 – Leaders’ inner life: why “under the hood” matters
08:22 – Kristi’s story: emotions, shame, and the healing power of empathy
12:00 – Why some Christians misunderstand empathy
15:00 – How emotions and thinking are meant to integrate
18:13 – Unconscious resistance: why leaders block empathy without realizing it
21:00 – Bill’s story: learning to feel after a lifetime of stuffing emotions
27:10 – Receiving empathy vs. rushing to solutions
32:09 – The 4 A’s of Empathy (Ask, Attune, Acknowledge, Affirm)
38:04 – Empathy prayer and connecting with Jesus’ emotions
45:19 – Empathy as oxygen for the soul
47:17 – Boundaries, burnout, and stewarding empathy
50:49 – We all need a safe place to process emotions

52:48 – Empathy + Truth + Responsibility = Growth
56:17 – Empathy Fatigue: How to set healthy boundaries with empathy

1:00:04 – A word of encouragement for weary leaders
1:04:35 – Outro

How do you lead when five generations share the same mission—but not always the same mindset?

In this timely episode of Behind the Seal, David Robbins, Global President of Cru, joins host Michael Martin to explore the challenges and opportunities of Cross-Generational Leadership.

From Gen Z’s boldness to Boomers’ steadfastness, David shares how understanding, repentance, and relational trust can transform generational tension into unity. Drawing from his global leadership experience and years leading FamilyLife, David offers real-life lessons on building trust, cultivating humility, and leading at the Lord’s pace.

If you’re navigating a multi-generational team, board, or ministry, this episode will help you build bridges that strengthen your mission—and your people.

 
About David Robbins:

David Robbins serves as the Global President of Cru, a worldwide Christian ministry helping to fulfill the Great Commission through evangelism, discipleship, and leadership development.

Over the past 25 years with Cru, David and his wife, Meg, have served in a variety of ministry contexts—from discipling college students and young professionals in New York City to leading FamilyLife, a global ministry focused on strengthening marriages and families.

David and Meg live in Orlando, Florida, with their four children. Their family embodies his leadership message: serving together, learning together, and following Jesus faithfully across generations.

Additional Resources:

• ECFA.org/LeaderCare
• Learn more about Cru
• Learn more about FamilyLife
• The Emotionally Healthy Leader by Peter Scazzero       

Leadership transitions can either strengthen a ministry or splinter it.. The difference often comes down to one word: humility. Nearly half of all successions fail, leaving organizations fractured, donors unsettled, and missions at risk.

In this episode of Behind the Seal, Michael Martin sits down with Steve Woodworth, CEO of Masterworks and author of Lost in Transition, to unpack why succession isn’t just about replacing a leader — it’s about safeguarding the future of an organization.

From “gone too soon, stayed too long” dynamics to the five key truths of leadership transition, Steve shares hard-won wisdom and practical strategies for navigating change without chaos. You’ll learn:

• Why every leader is an interim leader
• When to start the succession conversation
• How boards can prepare for healthy leadership handoffs
• What “no-drama succession” looks like in practice
• How humility, not ego, makes or breaks the process

If you’ve ever asked “How do I leave well?” or “How do we choose the right next leader?”—this conversation is essential listening.

📖 Learn more in Steve’s book Lost in Transition

🎧 Subscribe to Behind the Seal for more conversations on leadership, faith, and organizational health

About Steve Woodworth:

With over forty years devoted to advancing Christian organizations, Steve Woodworth brings a wealth of expertise in marketing, management, and organizational development. He steered World Vision’s direct marketing and donor services through a decade of annual double-digit growth in the 1980s and 1990s. Since joining Masterworks in 1992, Steve has been instrumental in establishing it as the premier marketing agency dedicated to aiding hundreds of Christian organizations in achieving their mission. Steve also gives back as a volunteer on boards, as a convener of industry leaders and continues to lead the Communications Working Group for The Lausanne Movement.

Additional Resources:

ECFA.org/LeaderCare

Lost in Transition

Masterworks Agency

What happens when churches prioritize productivity over people?

Doug Sauder, Senior Pastor of Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale, has lived through the fallout of leader neglect—and the transformation that comes when soul care becomes a core value.

In this powerful conversation, Doug shares his journey from a culture of overwork and burnout to one of rest, accountability, and sustainability. He opens up about:

·       Surviving the ripple effects of a senior leader’s moral failure

·       Resisting the “Messiah complex” of nonstop ministry

·       How Calvary Chapel restructured to prioritize Sabbath, family, and health

·       Why sabbaticals are a game-changer for leaders—and how his own shaped his identity beyond achievement

·       What it takes for boards and staff to cultivate healthy rhythms of work and rest

This is a hopeful, honest episode packed with wisdom for pastors, nonprofit leaders, and boards who want to protect their leaders, steward their people, and create ministries that flourish for the long haul.

About Doug Sauder:

Doug Sauder is the Senior Pastor of Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale, one of the largest churches in the U.S. He is known for his heart for families, his leadership in crisis, and his commitment to building a culture of health and soul care among leaders. Doug and his wife, Suzanne, have three sons and have served as foster parents to more than 50 children.

Additional Resources:

·      ECFA.org/LeaderCare

·      Learn more about Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale

·      PastorServe – Coaching & Soul Care for Leaders

·      The Emotionally Healthy Leader by Peter Scazzero       

What if the biggest threat to your leadership isn’t burnout, bad strategy, or lack of vision — but neglecting your own body?

In this episode, Jedd Medefind, President of the Christian Alliance for Orphans (CAFO), opens up a conversation many leaders avoid: the role of physical health in shaping how we lead. From sleep and diet to movement and screen time, Jedd shares how small choices in our daily lives fuel resilience, creativity, and longevity in leadership.

This isn’t about prescriptions or checklists—it’s about learning to lead from a place of wholeness. Whether you’re a pastor, CEO, or ministry leader, this conversation will challenge how you think about leadership health and give you practical ways to build strength for the long haul.

In This Episode:

• Why leaders often ignore physical health
• How sleep, diet, and movement impact leadership
• The hidden cost of our relationship with screens
• What thriving leadership looks like over the long term
• How boards and organizations can better support leader well-being

About Jedd Medefind:

Jedd Medefind serves as President of the Christian Alliance for Orphans (CAFO), which unites 300 respected organizations in joint initiatives to better the lives of vulnerable children and families. Previously, Jedd led the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives under President George W. Bush. He also held a range of posts in the California State Legislature. Jedd has worked, studied, and served in more than thirty countries, from Christian Life Bangladesh to Price-Waterhouse in Moscow. He’s authored four books and many articles, and speaks frequently on issues related to effective leadership, child development and health, technology, and more – from large events to media outlets ranging from the Wall Street Journal and NPR to Christianity Today. Jedd and his wife Rachel live in Falls Church, VA with their five children. He loves time with his family and friends, especially flyfishing, backpacking, or anything else in the great outdoors.

Additional Resources:

ECFA.org/LeaderCare

CAFO

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